Wow! A domestic installation as detailed as this...I think you've found a client for life! Thanks for the upload and can't wait to see the various phases as they're released.
I’ve just released a course detailing everything you need to know to become a heating genius! What’s more it’s been recognised by the UK government department BEIS which have offered to heavily subsidised the first 300 spaces! courses.heatgeek.com/
A bit late to the party.... My kitchen is at the other end of the house to the hot water tank and this water takes at least 30 sec to come through, would a switched pump help me reduce water waste?
I’ve just released a course detailing everything you need to know to become a heating genius! What’s more it’s been recognised by the UK government department BEIS which have offered to heavily subsidised the first 300 spaces! courses.heatgeek.com/
Quality video mate . 👌keep it up thr good work ,I all was say to my customers no jobs the same as everyone one has different needs to hot water and heating and this shows thats. 👌
I’ve just released a course detailing everything you need to know to become a heating genius! What’s more it’s been recognised by the UK government department BEIS which have offered to heavily subsidised the first 300 spaces! courses.heatgeek.com/
Used McDonald for my 400 litre thermal store 12 years ago. Recommended bu a plumber who's eyes glazed over when I was explaining I wanted to link a 17Kw wood burning range cooker, 6Kw of solar thermal, a 10Kw system gas boiler.. back up only and later dumped excess solar PV into the immersion. I emailed them sent a few ideas back and forth and they built a beautiful themal store with DHW at the top, just below that an indirect coil fed from the gas boiler, a massive finned coil to fit a heat pump in the future and solar coil at the base. Tapping's everywhere to make plumbing easy, sensor and thermostat pockets and choice big 1 1/4 tappings for the gravity feed 28mm from the biomass. Oh and once we had thrashed out the design 2 weeks turnaround... Helpful knew their stuff and made lots of useful suggestions, Ran the heating via an ESBE tempering valve set to 58 degrees and stats for low temp cut off, overheat protection by dumping heat at 95 deg into the CH then PRv and other protection. gravity fed from a copper header made from a cut down old 100l cylinder. P.S. did most of it myself as local guys had no idea what I was on about.. Gas sorted by friendly renewables tech who did the PV install and even gave me tips and bits for the solar. Good investment. Heated a 3 bed 2bath semi for £5 a month gas and FIT payment covered the electric and then some, Now moved and wished I could have brought that setup with me. Oh and all pipework in 28mm 22mm and only little bits in 15mm to keep pump losses down,
Amazing vid and very excited to see renewable heat sources being used more and more these days. The only thing I don't agree is to have the secondary pump being activated via PIR in bathrooms. Some appliances like dishwashers and dual water fed washing machines require hot water. If the secondary pump activates only for bathrooms, then these appliances will not be receiving the water at its maximum possible temperature and therefore spending more electric energy heating the water to their setpoint. This will also empty those few litres from the cylinder for nothing. That issue with the pool heath exchanger is failry common when the pumps switch off. The best solution would be to keep it as close as possible to the ground, ideally at the same level of the pump or lower that the inlet on the sand filter. Pool pumps have great flow but very low head, they struggle if there is a big air plug in the pipework.
Hi Lewis, thanks for your comment. Nearly all appliances in the uk as cold water fed only and dont have a hot supply. regarding the pool hex, when the pumps off it should inly drain to the bottom of the heat exchanger shouldnt it?
@@HeatGeek Hi Adam, It is true that most of domestic washing machines are cold water fed, but when you work with a higher level of customers that can afford the systems you install, they don't buy Beko but use more professional commercial grade equipment that does take hot water. Dishwashers should always be connected to hot water supply, they are all ready to work up to 60 C and it is the most ecological option. In regards to the heat exchanger, it should not be empty at all as it is in series with the circuit. If air goes on there its efficiency drops (I think I saw a bleeding plug on top of it to avoid this).
Hi lads. I’m doing something similar to my own house. Hopefully building in the new year. I’m also going to use a thermal store but slightly different. I’m going to use the one that has a hw coil or plate to heat the hot water. I’ll be using oil, stove, solar thermal & solar pv. Focusing on the solar to be the main sources of doing the heating & water. Love to chat to yous. Happy Xmas great video 👍🏻
@@HeatGeek some company’s have really good stores out now im tight for space so I’ll have to go as tall as I can and make sure the hw coil or heat exchanger is at the top
I’ve just released a course detailing everything you need to know to become a heating genius! What’s more it’s been recognised by the UK government department BEIS which have offered to heavily subsidised the first 300 spaces! courses.heatgeek.com/
Very interesting, especially the info on pools. I generally replace a pool boiler with one about half it’s output. I’ve never used a calculator, just have a gut feeling. 🤣 never had a complaint but sometimes I get a bit twitchy and think that I really should use a calculator. You have inspired me to become a bit more scientific.
good oil boilers they are mate, ill have it :) liking some of the ideas on there, especially the sec return which gives us hours of engaging debate here....
Nice video as always Adam. I'm just changing my own place over to ASHP from LPG. Where did you get the 6kW immersions from? Tempted to get one for mine - would like to get onto Octopus Agile if we can ever get a smart meter fitted
grate vid two thumbs up 👍🏼👍🏼you mentioned stratification so why not have a de-strat pump instead of what you done to the hws return, and will what you done on hws return have any risk of legionnaires???
Thanks bud. We actively WANT stratification here.. de strat pumps are to increase effective volume on high temp heat sources.. not low temp heat sources.
@@HeatGeek so it’s not for the oil but ready for the renewables your going to install, what would happen if it did have a de strat pump on low heat systems
@@originalshedboi the dt between the coils and heatbsources would be lower meaning the heat sources would have to run at higher temp.. not good for COP or glycol
@@HeatGeek Thanks. I have a secondary return to install soon and I’d like to use a PIR sensor but there’s a lot of choice! Can you recommend a particular type/model/specification?
The Octopus Agile electricity tariff is capped at 35p per kWh. I currently pay 15p per kWh for my electricity; by coincidence I'm on a fixed tariff with Octopus. In the current month (I'm writing this on 24 Nov 2021) there have only been 24 half hour periods when the cost of a kWh on Agile has been less than 15p per kWh; so just one half hour per day when you might get your power a bit cheaper than a fixed tarrif, and 47 other half hours when you are paying more than that. About 50% of the half hours in November have been charged at 34.9965p per kWh. So at present it's not looking like there is any cheap overnight electricity to be had on Octopus Agile. I do expect this to change over time and for these tarrifs to offer great opportunties to general domestic hot water for early morning use at reasonable rates. We're not there yet though.
When the tariff was launched, 35p/kWh seemed a lot. I think the Octopus Tariff is not subject to the price cap so is more expensive at the moment. Also, the simple wholesale multiplier, which is to also cover network charges, is penalising users for increased wholesale prices even though the same increase in network charges hasn't been seen. Maybe we'll get an alternative, one day.
Hello, I am a final year Building Engineer student. I am designing a similar setup to this one for my project. Would you have schematics for this system that you could share with me? It would be greatly greatly appreciated. Thank you very much!
No doubt, this system is a heating geeks wet dream, but some domestic installs have become completely OTT, in my opinion. What's the capital cost and annual operating cost of a system like that, with so many points of failure? I think you would be better off investing in improving the thermal performance of your home first. My mate in Southern Ireland built a house to near passive house standards, with no central heating requirement at all. He's got PVT panels on the roof, serving a DHW tank, and a MHRV system for ventilation......job done.
Hi heating geek, quick question I’ve been having this debate with another couple guys about when you do your heat loss calculations etc. What do you guys add onto your kw rating for boiler/boilers for how water supply say on a 300litre pressurised cylinder, I was taught 7kw. Even tho most cylinder seem to say there coils are rated for 20-24kw, some of my friends say they’re just sizing for the hot water and so I.e 24/25kw and adding a small amount of any for the heating?
@@HeatGeek yeah I thought that was the case, what would you allow if it wasn’t a hot water priory system, love the content guys really showing guys it needs to be done properly heat pump and heating systems
@@kylebrowning7469 that's difficult as I automatically think of non hwp as wrong. I suppose half the coil rating as it will never need the actual coil rating
@@HeatGeek what if the customer doesn’t want a hot water priority system tho even if you try and explain it’s cheaper then don’t want to forego heating while hot water is on etc.
@@HeatGeek I haven’t installed a hot water priority yet but after seeing some videos and reading up on it I might start trying to, my understanding is basically an s plan but with a normally open valve in-front of the two port of the heating that will shut down if the hot water is called? And specific boilers needed for hot water and heating connections? Tell me if I’m wrong
That would be my reasoning, I have a combined hw/ufh buffer vessel and the ufh hammers the hw when the slabs are heating up. I was thinking of installing a pre-heat buffer vessel using air source. Nice install btw
This pool heat exchanger is too small for heat pump, unless you want to run pool circulation almost 24/7 (pump can take too many electricity) or run heat pump with higher LWT for few hours in a day (lose COP this few hours, again electricity). But probably for this old leaky house you will need to keep high LWT anyway :)
@@jasonmace1273 the out building would have to be build to building regs which is pmgood enough for a plant room! Wether you need one or not depends on spec, load, and available space in the house.. it does take considerable space though
Looks like a really nice project, must be great to have such an open minded customer, they’re quite rare. I’ve had issues with secondary returns on air source. Have you tried fitting the thermostatic balancing valves for secondary return? They bring the flow down to a set table bypass rate when up to temperature, this would help with de-stratification. The Naviens look smart, they’re multi stage so should be much more efficient in warmer months.
Buffer size should take system volume in to account. Its not as big as we wanted for sure but the biggest we could have due to space constraints. Ground source usually is 15L per kW.. this is a 200L buffer plus system volume of 200.
Beautiful work on many levels
Wow! A domestic installation as detailed as this...I think you've found a client for life! Thanks for the upload and can't wait to see the various phases as they're released.
I’ve just released a course detailing everything you need to know to become a heating genius! What’s more it’s been recognised by the UK government department BEIS which have offered to heavily subsidised the first 300 spaces!
courses.heatgeek.com/
Good idea of the PIRs for the secondary return, thats getting done at mine now.
A bit late to the party.... My kitchen is at the other end of the house to the hot water tank and this water takes at least 30 sec to come through, would a switched pump help me reduce water waste?
Nice tidy work 👌
Absolutely love what you are doing need come on a course keep it up mate
Cheers Nick!!
Amazing workmanship and clear and indepth explanation, engineering of a really high standard . Well done.
I’ve just released a course detailing everything you need to know to become a heating genius! What’s more it’s been recognised by the UK government department BEIS which have offered to heavily subsidised the first 300 spaces!
courses.heatgeek.com/
Quality video mate . 👌keep it up thr good work ,I all was say to my customers no jobs the same as everyone one has different needs to hot water and heating and this shows thats. 👌
I’ve just released a course detailing everything you need to know to become a heating genius! What’s more it’s been recognised by the UK government department BEIS which have offered to heavily subsidised the first 300 spaces!
courses.heatgeek.com/
Thanks for video Adam. Like the idea on PIRs
Fantastic video. Beautiful job.
Thanks Andrew!
Used McDonald for my 400 litre thermal store 12 years ago. Recommended bu a plumber who's eyes glazed over when I was explaining I wanted to link a 17Kw wood burning range cooker, 6Kw of solar thermal, a 10Kw system gas boiler.. back up only and later dumped excess solar PV into the immersion. I emailed them sent a few ideas back and forth and they built a beautiful themal store with DHW at the top, just below that an indirect coil fed from the gas boiler, a massive finned coil to fit a heat pump in the future and solar coil at the base. Tapping's everywhere to make plumbing easy, sensor and thermostat pockets and choice big 1 1/4 tappings for the gravity feed 28mm from the biomass. Oh and once we had thrashed out the design 2 weeks turnaround... Helpful knew their stuff and made lots of useful suggestions, Ran the heating via an ESBE tempering valve set to 58 degrees and stats for low temp cut off, overheat protection by dumping heat at 95 deg into the CH then PRv and other protection. gravity fed from a copper header made from a cut down old 100l cylinder.
P.S. did most of it myself as local guys had no idea what I was on about.. Gas sorted by friendly renewables tech who did the PV install and even gave me tips and bits for the solar. Good investment. Heated a 3 bed 2bath semi for £5 a month gas and FIT payment covered the electric and then some, Now moved and wished I could have brought that setup with me. Oh and all pipework in 28mm 22mm and only little bits in 15mm to keep pump losses down,
Amazing vid and very excited to see renewable heat sources being used more and more these days.
The only thing I don't agree is to have the secondary pump being activated via PIR in bathrooms. Some appliances like dishwashers and dual water fed washing machines require hot water. If the secondary pump activates only for bathrooms, then these appliances will not be receiving the water at its maximum possible temperature and therefore spending more electric energy heating the water to their setpoint. This will also empty those few litres from the cylinder for nothing.
That issue with the pool heath exchanger is failry common when the pumps switch off. The best solution would be to keep it as close as possible to the ground, ideally at the same level of the pump or lower that the inlet on the sand filter. Pool pumps have great flow but very low head, they struggle if there is a big air plug in the pipework.
Hi Lewis, thanks for your comment. Nearly all appliances in the uk as cold water fed only and dont have a hot supply. regarding the pool hex, when the pumps off it should inly drain to the bottom of the heat exchanger shouldnt it?
@@HeatGeek Hi Adam,
It is true that most of domestic washing machines are cold water fed, but when you work with a higher level of customers that can afford the systems you install, they don't buy Beko but use more professional commercial grade equipment that does take hot water. Dishwashers should always be connected to hot water supply, they are all ready to work up to 60 C and it is the most ecological option.
In regards to the heat exchanger, it should not be empty at all as it is in series with the circuit. If air goes on there its efficiency drops (I think I saw a bleeding plug on top of it to avoid this).
@@luispereira3 good stuff 👌👌 Thanks for commenting 🙂
Hi lads. I’m doing something similar to my own house. Hopefully building in the new year. I’m also going to use a thermal store but slightly different. I’m going to use the one that has a hw coil or plate to heat the hot water. I’ll be using oil, stove, solar thermal & solar pv. Focusing on the solar to be the main sources of doing the heating & water. Love to chat to yous. Happy Xmas great video 👍🏻
Hi Alan. You are much beeter off with 2 stores, one for hw and one for heating. combining them sacrifices efficiency.
@@HeatGeek some company’s have really good stores out now im tight for space so I’ll have to go as tall as I can and make sure the hw coil or heat exchanger is at the top
Let’s have a ‘heat geek’ heat loss calculator. I have seen crazy heat loss calculations everywhere.
Use www.heat-engineer.com
Great video. If you are doing any day courses when the country is back open... Let me know. 👍
We will let everyone know about those on our news letter.. sign up here courses.heatgeek.com
I’ve just released a course detailing everything you need to know to become a heating genius! What’s more it’s been recognised by the UK government department BEIS which have offered to heavily subsidised the first 300 spaces!
courses.heatgeek.com/
Cracking video Adam.
Thanks bud 😄
Very interesting, especially the info on pools. I generally replace a pool boiler with one about half it’s output. I’ve never used a calculator, just have a gut feeling. 🤣 never had a complaint but sometimes I get a bit twitchy and think that I really should use a calculator.
You have inspired me to become a bit more scientific.
McDonalds cylinder are crazy on heat transfer mate there really good
good oil boilers they are mate, ill have it :) liking some of the ideas on there, especially the sec return which gives us hours of engaging debate here....
Its going up for sale after.. im not convinced
@@HeatGeek not keeping it as a backup? not convinced of what?
@@JadenRoseGuitars no becasie rhi isn't as good. Not convinced with this oiler.. keeps breaking down mate
@@HeatGeek aye you have to meter it.. im surprised at the breakdowns..
@@JadenRoseGuitars yeh and as the pv and thermal will feed in we don't want to meter
]
Nice video as always Adam. I'm just changing my own place over to ASHP from LPG. Where did you get the 6kW immersions from? Tempted to get one for mine - would like to get onto Octopus Agile if we can ever get a smart meter fitted
Macdonalds mate.. plenty others do them
grate vid two thumbs up 👍🏼👍🏼you mentioned stratification so why not have a de-strat pump instead of what you done to the hws return, and will what you done on hws return have any risk of legionnaires???
Thanks bud. We actively WANT stratification here.. de strat pumps are to increase effective volume on high temp heat sources.. not low temp heat sources.
No risk of legionairs. Will get weekly purge
@@HeatGeek so it’s not for the oil but ready for the renewables your going to install, what would happen if it did have a de strat pump on low heat systems
@@originalshedboi the dt between the coils and heatbsources would be lower meaning the heat sources would have to run at higher temp.. not good for COP or glycol
@@HeatGeek i can go to bed easy now thanks 🤩
Very interesting. Is the timing of the hot water pump controlled by the PIR sensor?
Yes.. and heat pump also
@@HeatGeek Thanks. I have a secondary return to install soon and I’d like to use a PIR sensor but there’s a lot of choice! Can you recommend a particular type/model/specification?
How are u going to control all the different appliances to get the best out of them?
Just weather compensation on the heatbpump.. if thr other sources increase the return too much it will naturally turn off anyway...
Hi Adam, any chance for an update on this system if possible? Cheers.
Absolutely! Need to find time to get out there..
What’s the brand of non return valve you have on the hot water pump, it’s not a compression valve?
I don't know the brand but it is compression
The Octopus Agile electricity tariff is capped at 35p per kWh. I currently pay 15p per kWh for my electricity; by coincidence I'm on a fixed tariff with Octopus. In the current month (I'm writing this on 24 Nov 2021) there have only been 24 half hour periods when the cost of a kWh on Agile has been less than 15p per kWh; so just one half hour per day when you might get your power a bit cheaper than a fixed tarrif, and 47 other half hours when you are paying more than that. About 50% of the half hours in November have been charged at 34.9965p per kWh. So at present it's not looking like there is any cheap overnight electricity to be had on Octopus Agile. I do expect this to change over time and for these tarrifs to offer great opportunties to general domestic hot water for early morning use at reasonable rates. We're not there yet though.
When the tariff was launched, 35p/kWh seemed a lot. I think the Octopus Tariff is not subject to the price cap so is more expensive at the moment. Also, the simple wholesale multiplier, which is to also cover network charges, is penalising users for increased wholesale prices even though the same increase in network charges hasn't been seen. Maybe we'll get an alternative, one day.
Hello, I am a final year Building Engineer student. I am designing a similar setup to this one for my project. Would you have schematics for this system that you could share with me? It would be greatly greatly appreciated. Thank you very much!
Thank you for this
No doubt, this system is a heating geeks wet dream, but some domestic installs have become completely OTT, in my opinion. What's the capital cost and annual operating cost of a system like that, with so many points of failure? I think you would be better off investing in improving the thermal performance of your home first. My mate in Southern Ireland built a house to near passive house standards, with no central heating requirement at all. He's got PVT panels on the roof, serving a DHW tank, and a MHRV system for ventilation......job done.
Fine if your building from scratch. With £1000s of upgrade with very large property still has a 10kw load..
Hi heating geek, quick question I’ve been having this debate with another couple guys about when you do your heat loss calculations etc. What do you guys add onto your kw rating for boiler/boilers for how water supply say on a 300litre pressurised cylinder, I was taught 7kw. Even tho most cylinder seem to say there coils are rated for 20-24kw, some of my friends say they’re just sizing for the hot water and so I.e 24/25kw and adding a small amount of any for the heating?
Hi Kyle. nothing as all our installations are hot water priority.
@@HeatGeek yeah I thought that was the case, what would you allow if it wasn’t a hot water priory system, love the content guys really showing guys it needs to be done properly heat pump and heating systems
@@kylebrowning7469 that's difficult as I automatically think of non hwp as wrong. I suppose half the coil rating as it will never need the actual coil rating
@@HeatGeek what if the customer doesn’t want a hot water priority system tho even if you try and explain it’s cheaper then don’t want to forego heating while hot water is on etc.
@@HeatGeek I haven’t installed a hot water priority yet but after seeing some videos and reading up on it I might start trying to, my understanding is basically an s plan but with a normally open valve in-front of the two port of the heating that will shut down if the hot water is called? And specific boilers needed for hot water and heating connections? Tell me if I’m wrong
Amazing
Wow that's complex for a domestic system!
Hi Adam - be interested to know what keeps breaking down on the Navien?
Pm me on fb mate
What's the fitting below the pipe stat on the secondary return?
28mm non return valve
Interesting video, thanks for showing.
Could you take the cold feed to the hot water cylinder through the buffer cylinder 1st?
Could go via a coil yes.. but everything that feeds the buffer feeds the cylinder so the only gain is power not efficiency
That would be my reasoning, I have a combined hw/ufh buffer vessel and the ufh hammers the hw when the slabs are heating up. I was thinking of installing a pre-heat buffer vessel using air source.
Nice install btw
@@Flashjohnsparks your notnusing weather compensation!????
@@HeatGeek No, it was in the house when I bought it. Just trying to figure a way to make it work in cold weather.
@@Flashjohnsparks be much less work, cheaper and more efficient to just upgrade to weather compensation imo 👍
This pool heat exchanger is too small for heat pump, unless you want to run pool circulation almost 24/7 (pump can take too many electricity) or run heat pump with higher LWT for few hours in a day (lose COP this few hours, again electricity). But probably for this old leaky house you will need to keep high LWT anyway :)
does an external ground souce heat pump plant room need to be insulated?
It doesn't *need* to be.. but we would never install one without insulation and never recommend it.
@@HeatGeek is an outbuilding recommended and would the outbuilding require the same spec as the house ?
@@jasonmace1273 the out building would have to be build to building regs which is pmgood enough for a plant room! Wether you need one or not depends on spec, load, and available space in the house.. it does take considerable space though
Is all the pipework just 22mm?
not its nerly all 28mm..
Aha. Couldn't tell from the video. Thanks
Looks like a really nice project, must be great to have such an open minded customer, they’re quite rare.
I’ve had issues with secondary returns on air source. Have you tried fitting the thermostatic balancing valves for secondary return? They bring the flow down to a set table bypass rate when up to temperature, this would help with de-stratification.
The Naviens look smart, they’re multi stage so should be much more efficient in warmer months.
Like the balancing valve idea James! Thanks!!
That buffer seems small
Buffer size should take system volume in to account. Its not as big as we wanted for sure but the biggest we could have due to space constraints. Ground source usually is 15L per kW.. this is a 200L buffer plus system volume of 200.
Do you know if that boiler is a 2 stage oil burner as it looks to have double solenoid on fuel pump
Yes it is. 2 stage oil pump
yea 2 stage, high and low..
Ooo doesn’t like oil!!