Does Genshin Impact Need More Weapon Types?
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
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Ideas for weapon types has been a niche food for thought discussion topic within the Genshin community for some time, so I thought it would be fun to discuss whether or not it would actually benefit the game to get more of them!
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woah, didn't know you got sponsored by the entire island of jawa
If I'm in inazuma and have C0 kazuha who should I get kokomi in 3.8Or yelan in 4.0
Making a character with a scythe is easy.Swinging attacks that end with a dash and slash animation,a ranged skill(preferably using a phantom version of the character),and an ultima…i mean burst that enters an enemy and deals a lot of damage.(Totally brand new never thought of before design Vars,surely good for the game)😉
@@exalted7906 does it have anything to do with a sea of butterflies?
@@eh9618 hint:look at Vars 1 channel
Ever since Heizou was introduced, I just thought of Catalyst as the "Anything goes" category
Same. Its more of a general catagory than simply a book or orb to cast the respective element.
I mean, look at the electro gun girl in the new trailer (I forgot her name)
It's not just catalyst that can utilize different fighting styles, although its the easiest to do but look at Mika, he's a pole arm character who uses a crossbow or Raiden whose burst transforms her pole arm into an electro sword.
We don't necessarily need new weapon types, Hoyoverse needs to be more creative.
@@mikhailhutchinson2011 she was leaked to be a sword user weeks ago
Waiting for physical Catalyst to be a gun.
Fish claymore
Lest we forget
A bit off-topic, but it surprises me that traveler doesn't get different weapons for each element, considering that you still have to level it up from talent level 1.
Because the Traveler having a sword is kind of the most basic weapon as you can get for an MC.
But it is kind of annoying how with every element the Traveler acquires they for some reason have to level up their Basic Attack talent every time from 0 (it would be understandable if they somehow learned a different attack style, but other than a passive talent from Anemo and Geo that deals elemental damage on the last hit of a combo attack, there's really not much difference)
@@ChenAnPindamn I didn’t even know the traveler could do that. I honestly forgot that electro traveler exists literally nobody uses them
@@avej99fr
@@ChenAnPinwhat also bugs me is that the traveler doesn’t really change outfits. Like at the very least, give him/her something other than a minuscule accent change lmao.
They put all their traveler effort into HSR MC
Agreeing with everyone so far. Hoyo showed us that they can make the characters attack differently than their weapon types. My favourite example of this is actually not Heizou, but Candace. She has a spear throw and shield bash in her basic attack animations and they actually do what their supposed to do. The spear throw has range, and the shield bash deals blunt damage. If only they didn't mess up the rest of her kit she would've been my favourite 4 star unit.
What do you mean mess up her kit? She works as intended. She might be "bad" to say the least, but she 100% does what she's intended - a hydro party infuser.
My example is Mika LOL he’s so bad that everyone forgets about him but he literally uses every weapon EXCEPT his actual weapon when he uses his abilities
Wait, her combo Shield bash does blunt damage? that's rad!
@@KingTaltia Yea it shatters and farms ore quickly with jump cancels.
Mihoyo somehow channeling the divine power of the universe to make the coolest looking characters become the worst units in the game
catalyst unironically has the most potential in my opinion as a weapon. it started with heizou then baizhu's release showing that not all catalyst users have to go bang bang bang from far away and instead can go bang bang bang up close. it'll be unique if we get a character who conjures some kind of elemental weapon but is a catalyst user.
Would be cool to see a catalyst user being able to (maybe as a charged attack) fire a continuous AoE beam that can be aimed around them as they fire. Something like how the Cryo Slime or Fatui Cryogunner would blast a cloud of ice.
That's kinda like Kaeya's fighting style in the manga. He fights a lot more like a mage, throwing conjured cryo swords.
@@ChenAnPin So, hydro traveler then?
Actually hoyo does not even need it to be catalyst. We have Tartaglia who has bow AND create water blades for himself. Imagine having electro/water/fire whip. Or cryo scythe. A ton of weapons can be created out of geo.
Hoyo just needs to be creative (2)
yeah if they dont want to create characters like child who swap weapons they can make any kind of weapon through a catalyst
As a fun middleground, I think they could diversify the current weapons visually.
- Bow weapons could get crossbows / canons
- Sword weapons could get daggers
- Polearm weapons could get scythes
- Catylist weapons could get (magic) gauntlets
- Claymore weapons could get battle axes
They virtually work the same, but some new eye candy to the repetitive current weapons.
The only downside is, depending on how different the weapon is from the current equipable weapon, they might need to add new animations.
That's actually really smart. They could introduce new weapons while still keeping them in 1 of the 5 categories. I really like the magic gauntlets idea, also guns could be a part of the bow category. Your comment needs more attention!
Unless it's an actual warscythe (with the blade parallel to the shaft rather than perpendicular), most of the animations of polearm characters with a scythe would look rather silly.
@@jakkubus Yup, scythes behave differently from polearms. Otherwise Hare would be a scythe user, not a javelin user.
@@BNuts
Because the peasant scythes so common in pop culture are not even weapons.
Interesting idea but unlikely to happen. It would require changing existing animations for most characters or adding in an entirely new set of animations for the new weapon variants for each character that could use them.
I also think that a lot of people don't realise that if Hoyoverse adds more weapon types they will also get more ways to screw us over with the gacha. More weapon types means more weapons you potentially do not want, the people who still don't have a Sac Sword will just suffer even more.
Not if they change the gacha system to go with it. What they have in _HI3_ is very good, and each battlesuit has its own BiS weapon and stigma set. Hardly anyone can share.
@@BNuts yeah but in HI3 you *need* the signature equipment for every character unlike genshin that you get the character and you're done (with a few exceptions)
@@BNutsthere's nothing good in it. It's much better in genshin where we can get a few good weapons and the whole cast can use. Adding more types simply makes it less likely for a weapon to be useable by a given character.
Not only that but your previously invested weapons would become useless on new characters, I’d rather have it added only visually like Heizou and Kirara.
Pretty much this.
Imagine if Zhongli could use The Bell.
i noticed genshin has gotten more and more comfortable ditching the weapons in attack animations for more style and character recently
Yeah like nahida uses a magical keyboard and mouse for her attacks,gives them more freedom to design unique animations for different characters because otherwise it's gonna inevitably become repetitive
I want more weapon types just so there can be more variety in character design. Lately there have been some characters breaking the mold like Candace also using a shield and Kirara not even using her sword. More unique animations like these would satisfy.
Just think about it on field nahida without catalyst or xangling without polarm😅😅 weapons passively effect how a character should play
I personally love Catalysts cause they focus more on effects and have unique attack animations like with heizou and scumidouch so it’s very likely that “gun” characters from Fontaine and other nations will fall under this category, right now they should cover elements for each weapon then weapon with each main stat, for example Furina is expected to be the first Hydro Claymore as well second HP% mained claymore it may not be very good weapon for many but that could change with time.
Wasn't she leaked as a sword user(and her signature sword was also leaked) about 2 months ago?
I’d love to see a dual daggers weapon style that focused more on rapid succession attacks. The sword attacks are fast, but they feel like a balanced act. I’d want them to REALLY lean into it, sort of like how greatsword users have higher dmg multipliers and greatsword themselves have the highest attack dmg but lowest attack speed. Do the opposite for daggers
Yessss gimme some attack speed scaling characters!!
Childe
@@kunalex4236 And he’s one of my favorite characters to use. But his cooldowns make him very limiting and his stance swap virtually makes it so he doesn’t really have a skill. His attacks also aren’t really faster than the sword or bow So he’s more like a prototype or template.
@@MrProdigy810 i mean, you arent really supposed to use his skill for its entire duration.
@@cajunseasoning1846 exactly. Which is why I’d like a weapon with that playstyle in mind. Appreciate the assist.
I was kinda surprised genshin went with claymores instead of axes. Axes seem to be the obvious third choice for a melee weapon category. Kinda wished they went with axes though. Opens up design choices to include hammers and maces. Giant double headed battle axes would be so cool.
This comment says a lot but imo there's an even bigger elephant in the room for the claymores: They look like swords so there's way less visual variaty.
When I was a newbie I wasn't even aware they are different things.
That's a very cool idea. All they'd have to do is add axes athletically, as they could be wielded with the same speed as Claymores, but with different animations and/or different passives. They could buff physical damage like they need to at the same time, lol. It'd all fit.
Isn’t there already a mace, but it’s a 3 star weapon.
And on another note Itto exists.
Big sword are always better than axes
I feel like it might just be an aesthetic decision. Something like axes carrying a connotation of a wild barbarian that doesn't mesh with there only being like one or two characters in each region that isn't like some super refined citizen of Civilized Society. Idk, axes/warhammers/maces/flails would look pretty damn cool though, I hope we get a claymore character down the line that uses a bigass warhammer
Gun.
Give me Gunshin Impact.
We know Fontaine has firearms, and the Fatui to an extent, so give us proper early firearms.
It would also balance out the melee-ranged imbalance we have right now (which is not exactly a bad thing to have but I personally would prefer this and I have no other backing)
And heavy ranged, making them the claymore of ranged, would be neat.
Long range, perhaps a reload to it that you have to manage, but very good single shot damage.
Skills used to enhance the shot, mitigate the reload, set a trap, use as a "get off me" tool, something to group up enemies in ways that Anemo doesn't already, making Anemo less mandatory for horde situations...
The list goes on.
My initial answer to the title of this video was "no, we don't need new weapons", but now you've put Gunshin Impact on the table I've changed my mind. I want Gunshin Impact and I want it now.
I love the idea of guns and you came up with a cool way to make it not feel the same as bow characters. Though i can see 1 problem. They would be a 1 hit wonder unless you make like a universal “gun” type that facilitates snipers, assault rifles and such.
If we just use your example they will either be physical damage (and we know how meta that is) or most reactions will just simply be unviable such as transformative reaction, Freeze bc shatter exists and the quicken reaction since that relies on multiple smaller hits to be viable. So only vape and melt would be able to amplify its damage effectively since that enchances big numbers more if the attacks are infused. (maybe overload since it is a ranged attack)
But they could add a general gun weapon with different sub categories like catalyst has right now with heizou being punch, Ningguang having blunt attacks, Yea having AoE and Sucrose charged having knockback to name a few examples.
Like make it one of their ascension passives or a separate new passive. Examples:
“Each hit is an heavy attack”
“After shooting a bullet, quickly fire 2 extra bullets”
Or skills/passive that allow you to go machine gun and go into a bow like aiming mode and just spray bullets like there is no tomorrow. (If done via passive the skill could infuse the weapon with elemental damage)
i want a dante reference.
I had presumed this video was made partly in response to the Fontaine teaser featuring Clorinde brandishing a gun, but that could just be an extra weapon she whips out alongside her main weapon similar to Mika with his compact crossbow that he uses in tandem with his polearm.
Or something like Dehya, she could only use her gun in her burst
Having more weapon types also means more things to gacha for (ALL rarities included). With the ever expanding pool of characters & weapons, getting the one specific thing that you wanted will just be harder & harder.
Goodluck getting Kaeya, Lisa & Amber's Constellations, or just ONE copy of Sacrificial/Favonius series.
Only really for four stars, Five stars would stay the same as the implication is new weapons not increased weapon turnout.
And to be fair, I think I still am missing half the four stars in the game because the times I pull are ALL the same weapons, so diluting the pool just means I get new weapons. (Explain; I just yesterday got Alley Flash for the first time)
@@KingTaltiaon the weapon banner last patch, i got 8 sacrificial great swords and the LoFi. not one fav sword or codex smh
If they add more weapons, I hope they switch to _HI3_ 's gacha system, where the gear for a character is all together on one banner, and getting anything else does not reset the Pity. Even if they don't add Artifacts to the gacha, it'd still work as long as the desired weapon is the only jackpot item. _HSR_ 's lightcone banner is better, but still there's a 25% change of getting something else.
I'm surprised this isn't the most upvoted comment, this is a MASSIVE thing people should really consider when they say we should get more weapon types.
Y e s
It also lowers your chances to get a billet you want for a craftable weapon. Amount of resin I spent on weekly bosses to get refines on my craftables is painful.
While I am all for encouraging diverse team building genshin's nature poses 2 major problems:
-You kinda need to invest in a unit to use it. A lv1 and a lv90 claymore unit may brake geo shields at the same speed but bringing a lv1 unit out at world level 5 is generaly considered a bad idea.
Witch woudn't be much of a problem if all ressources needed to do so weren't limited or time-gated.
- You can't enforce to much diversity outside of the 8 starter characters. Because they are the only one that you can garentee everyone has or can get without getting Rng or 3 month's worth of savings involved.
Dual pistols. Could be a combination of elemental and physical damage, although it could end up pushing bow users to the wayside 😅
KIANA KASLANA: Is my turn?
RAIDEN MEI: [stuffs food in her mouth]
GUN
Scythes that can do damage through shields and elemental shields would be great. I feel like a hillychurl shouldn't be able to block attacks with a little wooden buckler that would literally 1 shot them if they connected, and then there'd actually be a point to attacking abyss mages when their shield is up.
Zhongli meteor can't even break the nokia shield.
Well, Rita and Seele do heavy AoE damage. That sort of thing, or a bit different?
Oddly, it's Carole Peppers and PROMETHEUS, with their giant mech gauntlets, who are best known for their shield break abilities.
Or you can stop simping for videogame company and suggesting minor gameplay variety improvements that would fuck over entire playerbase and acknowledge you don't need a scythe to do that, you can do that with a polearm character that uses scythe animations.
Every single restriction you think exists in genshin is imaginary.
@@xelloskaczor5051 you seem upset brother
Flails would be what bypasses shields, not scythes.
That said, we don't need a weapon or weapon type to deal with the shield issue. Elemental shields, like the ones mages have, are a fundamental issue hampering physical damage from being viable (and failure to help in this regard, especially with pathetic elemental application, is part of why Mika is near worthless as a physical support), and the solution to that needs to apply to all physical weapons, not a particular weapon or weapon type.
If there'd ever be a gauntlet weapon, I'd love a boxer character with the new large male model. Purely melee (and no kicks) or with an ayato skill (but with punches). A brass knuckle weapon would be fine too
So Luca?
@@BNutsor fu hua?
Holy shit my prayers were heard with Wriothesley
@@stumpedtroperyup
I can understand Heizou being catalyst, but with Kirara, she attacks more with melee than her sword.
Maybe they'll graft new combat styles into current weapon types rather than make a brand new one altogether.
Yeah Kirara makes no sense.
We have a recent trend of characters having a gun in their animations and using a random other weapon for their main attack sequence. And then there are the melee catalysts...
One idea for a weapon I thought of is a mixed ranged weapon, like their basic attack is melee but their charge is a ranged attack, something like knifes/daggers or chakram.
No... Mika, Heizou, Baizhu, Klee, Childe, and probably the upcoming gun lady (and more I've forgotten) all showed us you can do a lot beyond using your standard official weapon.
actually, do we know how the gun lady will work? like what weapon is she gonna use since we don't have guns?
@@fadedecho3902 No, no leaks about it either. My guess is she will have a sword or bow, but as part of her NA she will shoot with a gun like Mika does his crossbow, and or having a dedicated "gun" skill or burs.t
@@kerrycodevHonestly it'd be cool if she'd be like reverse Childe, where she wields a sword, and then have a skill that can switch to her gun with it's own sets of things. It'd be interesting if it was also physical.
Early.
Also I'm ok with the current method of integrating weapons into specific character kits as it makes them easier to build and can make characters more unique.
One problem I see with new weapons is how annoying it would be getting characters and weapons of a particular type as hoyo is unlikely to make it easy to get good weapons of a new type easily, especially if you're a newer player
I think the existing categories are broad enough that all weapons are pretty much covered. Any new additions would either be too similar to an already existing type to be a separate type, have mechanics that make them worse than the already existing options, or have mechanics that power creep already existing options. For example, a lot of people want to see Scythes in Genshin… but that is basically a Polearm with a little extra area coverage. I personally think shields would be a cool addition, but I fully recognize that no one would like it because blocking would be a DPS loss and therefore unusable in abyss.
I think an interesting addition would be something like a chakram that you throw at enemies and it bounces between them. A ranged weapon that is good in AOE but bad in single target, kind of the opposite to bow. It would bounce from one enemy to another but it can't bounce back to an enemy that already got hit. The more enemies there are, the more total damage you will deal to them.
Interesting take on AI-chan's chakram play. Overall most characters in _HI3_ use their chakram very differently. Pretty interesting to see. Pardo and Susannah are both melee, AI throws and slashes, and Aponia... just kinda hovers menacingly and casts.
@@BNuts Yeah I kinda thought about AI-chan's chakram, but in Genshin that will be the baseline of the weapon. You throw it and it hits all enemies in range, but doesn't hit the same enemy twice, so the more enemies there are the better the weapon is, the exact opposite of bow. From here Hoyo can get as creative as they want, supports, summons, on/off field, infusions, switch to melee like Childe, etc.. I think this will be a really good addition!
Also Genshin actually has an enemy that is VERY similar to AI-chan, the dendro eremite.
Guns definitly, they fill the ranged weapons middle ground of damage and reach (the "sword" of ranged weapons with catalyst/claymore and bow/spear) and maybe a chain weapon that works like a bridge between ranged & melee weapons.
every thing else feels a little redundant for gameplay (fists are just catalyst since heizou and axes, daggers & hammers are too close to sword & claymore in moveset & utility) but maybe as skins for the already existing weapon types would be great!
This is what i've also been thinking, down to the point with (as much as i'd like them as separate) with axe and hammers, aswell as the different weapon types to serve as "the middle ground".
Although, i've been thinking of something such as a Scythe which focuses on sweeping and pulling with mid range and average atk spd, aswell as daggers, which focuses on spd, stealth and agility. Having short range, but very high atk spd, and could make use of having above average movement speed judging how they're much lighter.
the only reason i want guns is as a dante reference.
@@NeonWilder knifes i really doubt will get in even though you bring them in a very positive light, but childe E is probably the closest thing we will get for knife-fighting, speed & agility arent locked by weapon type (yelan, wanderer, sayu, ayaka, keq & haitham for example) and stealth is a dead mechanic in genshin, last time it even appeared was in the diona hangout...
scythes are a close second for me as a middle ground weapon for melee/ranged since i played bloodborne but i can also see them inside the spear and claymore movesets (rosaria and kaveh merak) or even in a catalyst if they are the small druidic ones lol
@@matheusbianquincera3104 Yeah fair points. Honestly, I wish stealth was a more prominent mechanic in the game, would make it more fun to do stealth quests and or sneak up on the enemies to kill them without alerting the others. But that's missing the point of the game, which is just to kill everything with reactions lol, I doubt stealth will actually be a thing, but hey one can only hope.
I'd honestly like a Scythe weapon type, as they're probably my favourite FICTIONAL weapon (in irl, it's not even a good weapon, but there's the war scythe, which is just a stick with a curved blade at the tip), which focuses moreso on sweeping (having high area coverage) and pulling (grouping cc). It will also have mid range, with average atk spd.
Another weapon is a Lance, which focuses on piercing and charging. It's basically the claymore ver of Polearms (even though that should be the hammer, but the hammer is already too similar to the claymores), which specialises in strong piercing attacks and a charged atk that makes them charge forward continuously consuming stamina, which can be controlled by the movement wheel, but has worse turn speed, but faster movement speed.
Ah, so Seele (or Rita) and Durandal. Nice. These two of the Immortal Blades alone would be enough for all of Teyvat.
Honestly a gun weapon type would be cool where the attack speed is higher than the bow but maybe not hitting enemy weak point accurate enough unless in aim shot and have to undergo reload animation to balance out with the bow
an ammo system would be pretty interesting. The character could attack as fast and hit as hard as they want but has to reload every now and again, so you’d have to play around making sure they have minimal downtime from reloading.
One slight issue with enforcing (which I agree should be done much more) that we use a larger variety of characters is that most players have 5 high level characters and 20 low level characters, and it would take a while (with the current system) to farm enough to catch up, basically making your theorethical Dehya boss unbeatable for most.
not only that, but it costs so much resources that f2p players realistically would NEVER finish to build specific teams for everything, plus there's the problem for new players who can't even level up characters unless they progress through four nations
@@mortem4573 The latter part of that is really only an issue for Inazuma characters (and Shenhe) and even then they will only be one ascension behind (if you get them on rate up). That is also early enough in the game that character level hardly matters. Until AR35-40 pretty much all of your damage is coming from your weapon, feather and reactions. It would also be easy to bridge that gap by adding a boss drop changing item to the game (similar to what dream solvent does) and adding a shop that sells limited quantities of regional specialties from every nation.
I suspect that much like Sumeru, Fontaine and subsequent nations will be accessible from basically the start of the game with just archon quests and some world quests locked by AR and story progression. You can walk to Sumeru at AR10 and fight any of the bosses (aside from weekly bosses).
I’d still definitely go with a scythe, wider mid-range area coverage than the spear but dealing more damage at the blade rather than the pole. The charged attack can send smaller enemies up vertically to follow up with basic combos & send them flying.
I think a lasso type weapon would be cool - maybe less damage but has the ability to scoop up enemies and pull them towards you. It would be great for a support in Spiral Abyss. Use the support skill / burst, then charged attack to pull all the enemies towards you to in time to swap to your main dps.
To be honest i love the idea of making an incentive to play certain units but i do think there would be a problem. At this point in time any attempts hoyo has made to incentivize playing a certain element/weapon made the community furious (look at the golden wolflord who *can* be defeated without using geo, but it is faster if you do. Or the flying enemies where you would want a bow user to stun them and bring them down.)
So i think that while i love the idea of making enemies one shot unless you use a gauntlet character to do 100 hits, i think the community would mass hate it so much. Saying you are forced to pull (Look at the lynette situation with pneuma/ousia if you know what im talkin an ab) for certain units altough technically you could go by with just the free unit of that type handed to you.
Vars, you said Whip/Chain and you took the words out of my mouth, always been one of my favorite weapon types. I would think it would have good range and aoe coverage but not hit as hard as swords, polearms, and claymores, but would hit harder than bows.
But, I don't see them adding a new weapon type, just making those who don't fit into the categories we have already just go with catalyst. Because after Heizou I just considered that weapon to be the "we can make it work" weapon.
In one of the event, an NPC said that Natlan is famous for their boxing art.
People travels to Natlan to study martial arts.
So I'm pretty sure we'll get a gauntlet type weapon in Natlan.
About incentive to use certain characters. This could be done for everything, but open world already is really easy and you can do whatever you want. Events make an effort and that's fine. But the main constant content we have in Genshin that requires you to use good teams and builds is the Abyss. For this you could go about it in a few ways but I thought that it'd be nice if every abyss cycle they'd buff certain characters or teams. This could be damage, certain stats, maybe even constellations? The worst characters could just get full on C6 if they feel crazy about it. Maybe they give you extra rewards for beating floors with a certain character/team. Maybe characters that are extremely good at dealing with certain floors can even be nerfed a little?
Controversial takes but I think it'd be best to stick to one specific way of implementing this. I'm leaning more towards a buff to a certain character each cycle. This could even provide time for others to grind out a character they never used before just because they'd help with the current abyss, then they could also use that character for future abyss or just whatever.
Nerfing characters in the abyss is the most controversial thing I listed, but it might just be the healthiest option for the game long term. Certainly something to not just ignore because "I got the character, I should not be punished for using them" and maybe it's time to use your Barbara that's been with you through the hardest of battles and now been benched ever since Kokomi got released with her artifact set.
the fact of how many gun type enemys exist is kinda amazing there isnt really a player rep for them somehow, with i guess one of the up coming fontaine chars having a electro one.
the only thing that come to mind on why to make a new weapon type is to incorperate new type of weapon ability somehow. the main issue is characters have such a wide whatever move set that has already covered into so many overlaping things
At the end of the day they could realistically create any kind of attack animation with catalysts. My largest issue with adding in an entirely new weapon type is that it would further dilute the gacha pool.
Here's a video topic for you: "does leveling characters take to long "
As the roster increases this could be a issue. As everything that levels characters requires resin: talents, weapons, bookmarks, and boss materials.
Something I think worth noting is delusions like childes stance swapping (and even his super saiyan mode) and signoras element switching. The untapped potential of delusions could lead to a lot of interesting ways to play and I hope they can explore this come scheznaya
I, too, am a huge fan of Gauntlets in any pop culture. First time I saw Iansan from Natlan in the trailer got me hyped of a possibility. I tried to be realistic thinking she'd be a catalyst that punches then we got Heizou and Dehya afterwards.
I'm still hoping to this day for that gauntlet type haha
I hope one of the harbingers has a catalyst thats property is to make elemental manifestations of weapons. I really wanted Scara to use anemo swords, the windblades are cool but I hope someone like Columbina can have a catalyst that summons elemental weapons. It makes catalysts more viable in general by stopping the travel time and chance of missing, it feels smoother and looks cooler too. Plus it'd be a nice unique way for a catalyst user to fight.
You completely caught me off guard with “and a body pillow of amber” lmfaooo
My weapons idea
- gun
Normal attack : hit nearby enemy with bullet that needs to be reloaded using charged attack.
Special property : pierces enemies and ignore 20% of their defense
- charge attack : reload bullet to full
- plunge attack : perform and bullet rain that consume the remaining bullets and deals damage based on bullet consumed
A weapon Idea I would have is a scythe (like shown in the beginning of the video) that deals slightly below average damage, but can apply the bleeding effect to enemies.
I wouldn't want to see more weapon types added. Adding more would make the gacha feel even worse and make it harder for f2p players to build their characters.
I played Tower of Fantasy for a while and i loved the Chakrams of Shiro, i miss her playstyle a lot and i would absolutely love to see those weapons being added to the game.
Pardofelis, AI Hyperion Lambda, Susannah, and to a far lesser extent, Aponia, saying 'hi' from all the way over in _HI3_ .
To me the fact the Honkai team has added weapons to _HI3_ , but the Genshin team hasn't added any to _Genshin_ even for Heizhou speaks to a possibility they never will. It's a shame, they could just borrow from their older sister. After scythes and lances, I believe the first weapon they added to _HI3_ was bows, alongside Fischl.
Looking at honkai impact the same question popped up a few times, especially with gun users using great swords and fist users using 4 weapons (none of which are fists) but even so hoyoverse added a couple new weapon types back in April last year such as chacrams and bows when fischl was added, idk how necessary it was but its defiantly possible considering the track record, maybe if genshin does a Collab with honkai on genshins side they will add guns for kiana or something.
Then theres Lances, javelins, and more
Senti with the YATTA, very meta-defining. She's been out, what, two years? Still in there.
Catalysts are just kind of their everything goes category and on one hand I'm excited to see what they do with that, but on the other hand I'm worried that might lead to them oversaturating the character pool with catalysts in the future as it gets harder to differentiate characters of the same weapon type.
I think it'd be interesting to have characters use like daggers and to have them be officially sword characters but they use like a slightly different model, like an adjusted model for the sword they use or like a bow character that uses a gun and the gun changes to resemble the bow they used, a polearm user with a scythe that does that.
Because you can't just add a scythe polearm or dagger sword or gun bow because then they'd have to make special animations for every character of that weapon type if they were to wield it, and while yes this way is also a lot of work, I think in the long run it could potentially be less work
The hunga munga or “mambele” originating from South and central Africa which is a hybrid between a throwing dagger and a throwing axe. Auto attacks work as a melee with tight range, fast attack speed and high mobility while attacking. Charged attack works like a bow aim shot that only deals physical blunt damage with faster charge time, but unable to strafe while aiming.
The game needs another ranged weapon in my opinion at least to make exploration more accessible. They keep making bow users like Sara, Gorou and Faruzan that make for poor exploration companions when you want multiple elements readily available on your team.
To the title of the video : yes, please let me shoot hilichurls with the Teyvat equivalent of a glock
i would love if they added a new style of catalyst (like how we have AOE catalysts [mona, sucrose], long range catalyst [yanfei, ningguang], and summon catalysts [klee, miko].) which are guns. i think elemental firearms (maybe the elemental energy from the catalyst condensed into a mystical handcannon? could be a high damage, single target version of the catalyst (kinda making it an infused bow)
After the brilliant success of “Domains should require one team comp”, Var’s next idea for Genshin is to add a weapon type which allows characters to apply pyro as well as their own element, and content which requires you to use a certain weapon.
May his game design professor break his arm with a book
I want them to add a sheld catalog.
It main stat could be def and it attack range is very close(melee) and quite far(throw).
Maybe it have a knockback or stun effect when hit.
It would be fun :)
Okay, now I need the “Amber Dakimakara” great sword! That’s too funny lmao
A scythe weapon type. I'd make it so at least 1 attack in the basic attack chain had some kind of small pull animation, like how Cyno grabs enemies while he's in his ult. I'd also have them as a middle ground between claymores and polearms, making them attack faster than the first and deal more dmg than the second. Also, they would look sick in genshin. I'm a sucker for scythe users.
It's just an interesting thought, but...
Honkai Impact 3rd, had originally quite a few weapon types, fists, swords, guns, greatswords, etc.
But a month or so ago, they added a new weapon type when they released Hare / Mistlein, and she wields javelin, the newest weapon type that only she uses at the time being
Whip would be really fun. It's charge attack can pull in a small targets and if they are large, you pull yourself on top of them to do an elemental plunge attack or a multi physical attack. This would fix the constant running around in abyss
Something that would be funny is a physical catalyst user that just pull out a gun and shoots the enemy. but for a new weapon i think most of those can be covered whether with infusions like childe or itto or with whatever they want to do with catalysts , like the cannon character is just klee. and the guntlet is just heizou.
guns with the ability to lock on/ cycle between targets, also the bursts would be insane
What I love to have is that weapon doesnt effect the appearance
Like lightcones in HSR, you can equip anything, the weapon still look the same
Characters can hold their signature weapon, but only the appearance
I actually really like the fact that we can visually see which weapon we have equipped.
@@Kokichus idk I absolutely love seeing the umbrella lmao
@@xraeynexbetter example would be umbrella on alhaitham
@@stathisconstantinou that one's a bit more fair. The umbrella does clash with his aesthetic. Still though, I absolutely die every time I see my character attack with an umbrella. It's disappointing to me that I can't actively see which weapon I'm holding in HSR
Man, I've had this vison got dagger users for awhile now, and basically it would be a combination of swords, bows and catalysts, because my vision is that daggers would come in 3 types:
Type 1: (The sword type)- you're doing physical damage until you use an elemental skill / burst damage.
Type 2: (the bow/ catalyst hybrid)- where the character is throwing daggers that does damage similar to razor's burst. (Physical and elemental dmg)
Type 3: (the sword/ catalyst hybrid.) The character's attack is purely elemental for quick application of elements. (Like ignis from final fantasy 15, if anyone knows who I'm talking about.)
Ive been seeing physical catalyst straight up just being a gun doing physical hits recommended in the comments and it'd love that so much lol
I think Hoyo needs to simplify their weapon system a bit but maybe allow different animation and skin types depending on the cahracters in use.
So like rather than swords allow the category to be one handed. So a future character could be a one handed axe user and just change the favanious sword into an axe with the same aesthetic?
•One Handed
•Two Handed Heavy Melee
•Ranged Physical
•Magical/catalyst(Ranged or melee)
•Marshal Two Handed melee(polearm, bo-staff/quarterstaff, halberds)
if i were to add another "weapon type", i would go for sub weapons, which essentially act as a switch for the main weapon, so you could essentially add another attack or support option to a character, or even something as simple as adding another passive like weapons currently have. like, what if heizou could actually use the baton he carries, if only for a little while, and it could deal infusable physical damage.
Honkai Impact 3rd have quite a few characters who equip one type of weapon and use entirely different and unrelated weapons in the actual gameplay. Genshin could just do that which I think is a better way to go about it
To be fair, weapon types are locked to the character themselves, not the battlesuits the character can use. Yeah, it's confusing to a degree, but what can you do?
I would like to see claws as a weapon type. It would be more focused on rapid strikes and quick movements as like vars said it would be amazing to use while doing something like break shields or cause freeze,taser,spread and aggrivate as massive amounts of elemental application can cause multiple reactions over time
I think they could add the pistol, we also saw a character used one in the Fontaie Preview. She'll probably be a Catalyst though...
cross bow could be cool, the bolts could deal aoe damage like Catalysts and be aimed like bows but have slow attack speed like a claymore and no elemental infusion on charge shot. i think this would make a nice balance, 3 melee weapons and 3 ranged.
i think genshin should add more weapon types, i think they should add more to the claymore weapon type.
None. I don’t think new weapon types are necessary when HoYoverse has proven they can make creative animations for already existing weapons such as Heizou with fisticuffs, Mika with crossbow, Kirara using her claws, and Kaveh with Mehrak. They simply need to double down on this.
If you want more examples, Honkai Impact literally doesn’t give a shit about weapon types. Kiana Kaslana has multiple different battlesuits but they all use one weapon type: Pistol. Despite Herrscher of the Void using spikes and black holes. Despite Herrscher of Flamscion literally using a great sword, they are still considered a Pistol user. Another example is the Herrscher of Sentience who is a Gauntlet user but uses 4 different weapon types.
It’s rumored that we are getting a cryo catalyst user in Fontaine, so there’s that possibility.
The chance of a new weapon might be possible, for a cannon or gun, as one of the new characters was shown wielding a flint lock looking handgun. Though it could just be part of her skill or ult.
And perhaps we’ll get a gauntlet weapon type in Natlan? Though this one I’m not too sure on as of right now. It certainly would be cool to get a pyro gauntlet character yelling Falcon Punch.
I mean, I've long wanted the character for Natlan to be a Gauntlet weilder, but have just relented to accept she's just a Pyro/Geo melee catalyst like Heizhou, in fact, I knew that was the case before Heizhou and was wanting a "melee catalyst" for the longest time.
Friend who works at hoyo says charlotte is cryo catalyst
What you want is basically Fu Hua's Valkyrie Accipiter battlesuit. She even has a _Kamehameha_ .
I agree with what u said about weapons being statsticks and not changing how characters are fundamentally played. I guess that being virtue of gacha, they want to reserve unique playstyles to new characters, but I've always liked games that have a few really well designed characters, but with a lot of different ways to play them depending on your weapon. My favourite example would be tf2, where you only have 9 classes but each class has so many different playstyles
i think gun would be an idea to explore : guns could either be the fastest attack rate or would do one extremely strong attack that could destroy shield BUT would have a cooldown between a few shot, those weapon could have no charge attack, the strong attac k(shot gun) could be perfect for single target and the fast one would be the best option for AOE. we see guns in teyvat (hey clorinde, hi fatui)
another problem with weapon and genshin in generals is that character role in the party is never show (in star rail the path define what a character does) the thing is that an element define the strength of a character and not its kit (for exemple 4* geo catalyst from liyue idk how to write her name is an amazing character but was cursed by geo) every hydro character are top tier (exept barbara because of her non hydro aplication) and i can assure you that focalor/furina will be stronger than kazuha just because of her element and the fact that she's an archon. element need to have a great balance/rework for that non of them should over class other just because mihoyo suck at balancing. (element should have strength and weakness to it)
TLDR : element are not balanced
10:22 personally, i just do the floors 3 or more times to get all 9 stars.. form each teams to fit each chamber. the third chamber is usually the hardest since i have to form a team specifically to deal with them but have to get them through chamber 1 and 2, where they might not be as effective
I wouldn’t mind seeing a new gun type weapon in Genshin.
Aimed shots would do single target damage, while hip firing could do aoe damage?
Just some food for thought.
I'll never understand why so many people hated Minecraft's 1.9, feel like the old combat was pretty lackluster compared to the new system
Gunblades would be neat but the concept in my head would just be how a normal sword unit would work.
Their normal attacks doing phys damage but their CA being aimed shot like bows, elemental property and all. Again, that could just be what a regular sword unit can do.
crescent blades like honkai, can have characters use them as a chakram or two blades holding.
I'm an avid Gauntlets player in games, so their my easy choice. Rapid attacks that are weak, say to converse them from current weapons no attack has less than 2 hits, but none go over 200% damage. Count as Melee (but seriously MHY can we just get the ability to infuse bows? It'd be SO GOOD!) and has VERY low stamina costs, charged and dodge alike, thing is; I hope you like point blank range, so either learn your opponent's attacks or get a shield/healer, because you're gonna need 'em.
I’m pretty’s sure Natlan is going to be a volcanic wasteland
I would like elemental weapons more so than new weapon types.
Imagine swords/catalysts/etc with built in elements. To mitigate them being broken, maybe they could be slightly weaker or only activate on charged attacks or every few inputs.
This would allow all characters to become viable again, create new teams within the meta, and allow teams to not be limited to only the elemental affinities of whoever is there.
Imagine Eula with a claymore that had built in electro, allowing her to fight in a team more aligned to her own positives. Or a hydro catalyst on Nahida. Heck, even someone rarely used used like Amber could single handedly create vaporize and melt reactions.
The difficulty would need to be balanced slightly but it would allow new players or free to play an option to really focus on the people they enjoy or long time players new reasons to build old characters.
4:30 “…especially since the essential experience of the game is predicated on elemental combinations.”
…
*Geo has left the chat*
I wish characters used their weapons differently, have more characters throw spears or even chuck a sword or clay more; have them jump or launch themselves with the weapon, ect
bruh i didn’t even get a minute in and was hit with an ad, idk if that’s creators control or youtube but it’s getting wild the amount of ads in videos nowadays
dif weapon types generate dif rates of energy by doing normal attacks. while pole arms have slightly more forward range than swords at the same speed, of all weapons, swords generate energy the fastest w/normal attacks, so there is a bit of a trade off. albeit, not much since most sword users aren't going to do a lot of normal attacks anyway.
They should just use the weapon types as a base, but start playing around with different ways of using them. Like spears for instance don't always have to have similar ATK strings, instead someone could have very long range with it, but they'd be only poking. Swords could have both two handed and dual wielding types in stances for instance (Alhaitham already explored this), Claymores could have two strike strings with massive scaling, bows could be used for melee (or just have the bow hang somewhere while using the arrows for stabbing/throwing, heck catalysts could be used for striking lol (beating enemies with a book). They're sticking too close to their attack animation archetypes instead of playing around with those ideas. Mika is a good example of using multiple weapons outside the weapon type itself for attacking, but his spear attack string still follows the weapon archetype very closely, instead of, like, using the spear for balance from the crossbow's "recoil" (or whatever) for instance. Or lol, how about using the sword like in some of those hema videos, where armored knights could grab the blade and use the hilt as a hammer 😂
Clorinde: literally has ducking gun
The only weapons typed i want are one that i really cant think of being replacable with our existing ones. Like chakams and guns. Things like say axes, twin blades and sythes animations can be replaced by existing weapons.
this reminds me of 2.0 leaks(i think) when people were saying we were gonna get a new weapon type
I would still choose a hammer type, just for it to have a unique charge attack where you would hit harder the longer you hold down the button.
Since they didn't add gauntlets to _Genshin_ for Heizhou, I doubt they will add any other weapon types to the game. Note that they also don't rework Sayu from Anemo to Dendro when the latter element was added, even though Sayu was originally thought to be planned to be Dendro.
It's not that Mihoyo doesn't know how to implement different weapons, they can and have. It seems like they do not believe that doing so will help make the game enjoyable. This may be because exploration, not combat, is a main focus in _Genshin_ . We have an example from another game where combat _is_ a big focus, and its weapon types.
I should also mention that because _Honkai Impact 3rd_ has a higher combat focus, each battlesuit has many more skills to activate and level up than _Genshin_ characters do, resulting in more complex combat systems. While elemental reactions and resonance are not a factor, it matters how you use Branch and Combo Attacks, together with Weapon Active Abilities, and Ultimates / Bursts. In addition, certain conditions allow for QTE Switch abilities to be triggered, which can do more damage. Some battlesuits, like Starlit Astrologos, Haxxor Bunny, and to extent Sugary Starburst, can support from off-field. Some stages even have conditions called 'weather' that can boost or lower certain types of damage. Mono-type damage teams are also more common in _HI3_ , with battlesuits only being capable of doing Physical, Lightning, Ice, or Fire DMG. At the same time, you have the RPS system of Biological-types beating Psychic-types beating Mechanical-types beating Bio-types, as well as Quantum and Imaginary-types beating themselves.
_HI3_ started off with dual pistols, katana, cannons, greatswords, crosses, and gauntlets.
Kiana Kaslana wielded dual pistols, and had heavy attacks. Depending on the battlesuit, she might do ranged or melee attacks with her Kaslana-style gunkata.
Raiden Mei and (Yae) Sakura use katanas for fast attacks, and while they are must effective at close range, they often have skills that help them to either reach across the distance or cover the distance faster.
Bronya Zeychik is the prevalent cannon user. She moves slowly and fires off heavy shot that can take time to charge, or sustained laser blasts. Instead of a jump dodge that can trigger _Time Fracture_ , her support bot Project Bunny 19C blocks attacks with its shield. Not all cannon-users use heavy, slow attacks, though, as Haxxor Bunny moves quickly, and her active weapon is a pair of P-90's. VILL-V plants a pair of fixed turrets you can switch between, as well as an additional mortar for occasional support. Her gameplay style is very, very different from anyone else's. Bronya's later battlesuits tend to be faster than her earlier ones, showing her in a more powerful state.
Murata Himeko and the Vodka Twins use greatswords for slow, heavy attacks. Rozaliya and Liliya have an excuse for their slower speeds since they're chibikos, and require their tails to support their use of their greatswords (oh, the tails? They had a surgery that melded DNA from a certain Honkai Beast with theirs). Himeko has two battlesuits, Arctic Kriegsmesser (which more closely resembles _Honkai: Star Rail_ 's Himeko) and Vermillion Knight: Eclipse, which have faster attacks. Perhaps ironically, Kriegsmesser is Ice, while VKE is Fire. Also, while Herrscher of Flamescion uses dual pistols, consistent with Kiana, they instead appear as a greatsword. Similarly, Herrscher of Finality uses dual pistols, but they appear as a pistol and a shortsword. So the weapon type does not definitively translate to the shown weapon type. Especially when there is no specific type for sword-and-pistol the way HoFi uses them.
Theresa Apocalypse's crosses can easily be thought of as the same as catalysts, except that it's effective at mid-range, and slings blades at the enemy. The Ultimate often sends a large version of the cross into the ground ahead of the user, and puts up some sort of AoE, with the Weapon Skill being something a bit smaller than that. Crosses are heavy on Combo and Branch attacks. The cross itself is often shown hovering behind the user's back unless she's using her Skill or Ultimate. Mobius is distinct in that her whole style revolves around chaining and alternating between the ATK and ULT buttons, but she can also snek underground, triggered by her Evade.
Finally for the weapons available near the start of the game, gauntlets allow Fu Hua to do some rapid close-range strikes, and depending on the battlesuit, she might even do rapid kicks as well. As with swords, some skills allows Fu Hua to cover distances quickly. Interestingly, while Fu Hua's battlesuits all fit their gauntlets directly onto their hands and wrists like normal, both Carole Peppers (Sweet and Spicy) and PROMETHEUS (Terminal Aide 0017) have giant mecha arms that they fight with, and both of them specialize in Shield Break. Li Sushang is another gauntlet user, but her weapon appears as a sword. Then there's Herrscher of Sentience, who you can switch between her weapon stances by tapping ULT. Although she also shows as a gauntlet user, she switches between spear, sword, and chain-sword. The first two are fairly straightforward. The chain-sword has a wide range, but does lighter damage. At the same time, it does damage per link, or so it seems to. Senti's Herrscher Mode also allows her to rapidly bonk the enemy by using the scabbard that houses all of her weapons as her weapon. By switching again, she attacks with a mass of heavy chains. There are very good reasons Senti is still in the meta over two years after she was introduced.
The weapons _HI3_ has since added are scythes, lances, bows, chakram, and javelins.
Rita Rossweisse and Seele Vollerei do heavy attacks with their scythes. Interestingly, while Rita's attacks are graceful, swift, and sure due to her experience, Seele, especially in her early battlesuits, is slower, more unsure, and hesitant. The scythe tends to do AoE damage with its sweeping attacks, however with Stygian Nymph, when the Saule personality switches control with Veliona, her scythe handling becomes more sure and faster. Stygian Nymph uses her Burst as a stance change, so that Saule is the one who does AoE damage, and Veliona is more focused on single-target damage, and opts to use a set of massive claws on chains instead of her scythe. Starchasm Nyx is faster and more aggressive, but will swap between her scythe and claws. The upcoming Herrscher of Rebirth switches between a Support and a DPS stance, tending to only use her scythe in her DPS mode.
Bianka 'Durandal' Ataegina is the sole lance user, and she mostly wields it one-handed. She can do heavy strikes, a grappling throw (by impaling the enemy on her lance first) or kick it into a large enemy she can't pick up, and even charging attacks. As Palatinus Equinox, Bianka can even mount up, using her horse, Krishna, to reach more enemies while in a charge.
Bows came to _HI3_ along with Fischl during the _Genshin_ crossover. Here, all her attacks do Lightning damage. Bow users have the ability to do aimed shots, single shots, and rapid fire. Other abilities tend to vary widely based on the character. Also, and this is *very* important, each battlesuit tends to have just a single weapon and stigmata set that is their best, and which does not work as well on other battlesuits, regardless of whether it's the same character or not. Fischl's is naturally _Mitternacht Waltz_, the same bow later introduced to _Genshin_ . While Fischl and Natasha 'Raven' Ciora are both support-type characters, I can't say all bow users tend to be support types, since, well, Elysia. But Elysia will always be special.
In _HI3_ , chakram are all giant, bladed rings. Pardofelis and Susannah both split them in half and use them like reverse-gripped swords for fast melee strikes. Pardo's Ultimate is to drop a giant-sized version of her cat, Can, on the enemy, while Susannah turns things into a rhythm game. AI Hyperion Lambda uses her chakram in its ring form, either swinging it from her body at close range, or throwing it at her enemies from medium to long-range. Her weapon skill notably splits her chakram into three copies that she can hit back for more damage, and her Ultimate puts down a giant flame chakram field. Aponia uses her chakram in yet another way, having it float behind her like a halo-shaped catalyst. She then rains down lightning strikes on her enemies.
Hare's javelins are the most recent addition to the game. She can do fast strikes like a Polearm, but she can also throw small and medium javelins at her enemies. It's kind of like how swords are faster, shorter-ranged versions of greatswords. Javelins seem to be the same sort of thing for lances, and with Hare in particular, there's a throwing mechanic too. We don't know yet whether that's unique to her, though, considering she's the first and only one so far. But... javelins are thrown weapons, so I don't think that will be unique.
So with these examples, we know that Mihoyo can add weapon types if they think it will be suitable to the character. In a game where each character has her own unique best weapon, that might not be as big a deal. But in _Genshin_ it is much easier for multiple characters to use the same weapon well.
And then we have _HSR_ , where weapons depend on a character's Path, but their appearance on the character in combat does not change at all.
"Does Genshin need more weapon types?"
Clorinde: *G U N*
I would like to see scythes included in the polearm weapon type. No particular reason, I just think they look cool
Honestly, I'd love to see 2 additional weapon types added in Genshin, and in a sense they are both in the game already:
Guns. Some of the fatui enemies already use elementally infused guns, and they could fill the "long range AoE" niche that bows lack on their attacks (except certain bow characters, of course). Maybe you could make it where guns have lower attack speed than bows but their charged attacks pierce through all targets hit in a straight line.
The other weapon type I want to see is fist weapons or brawler type characters. We already got Heizou and Dehya in the game. Just change their weapon type to fist weapons. And perhaps its unique gimmick would be that if you time your normal attacks properly, rather than button mashing, they deal more damage or trigger extra effects or something. It'd work similar to dehya's burst where timing button inputs to her hits would increase the attack speed of her burst.
That is all. I think having 7 weapon types, to complement the 7 elements and 7 nations of the game would be really nice.
I don't think we need more weapons, just more variety. Look at Mika and Heizou and Childe. A catalyst user that punches people. Skills that can switch your stance from melee to ranged.
It's so fun to see these characters and creativity flourish through creative use of weapons.
Imagine a sword user who can throw it or something. A bow user who shoots arrows like it's a shotgun. Polearms that are designed to slash instead of jab and poke can work with scythe designs. Claymore users who punch (Dehya I am so sorry.)
Yes tbh been wanting a gauntlet weapon type for the longest would be awesome and it could make physical at least useable unless they'd give every character infusion on skill
if i could add another weapon type, i'd go with shields. the characters would probably have another small weapon to give more variety on the attack animations, but the main "weapon" would be the shield. maybe they would have blunt attacks but hit faster than a claymore. i also imagine the "charged attack" would be holding the shield in front of them to block damage for a time, and then there could be a special effect after youre done holding it, like charging forward with the shield afterwards.
I agree with this video a lot haha. It would be great if they made weapons matter more in combat but also if they did they would probably want to be more aware of how little resources there are for building a new character on an account. There is also the issue of how it would impact exploration- because we already have to change characters a lot just for specific puzzles and asking us to switch even more while having the loading time for the party menu and exploration puzzles might cause frustration in some so is it worth it from a business perspective? I still think yes they should just make the option a positive but not a requirement and given how elements themselves are necessary for some things already and people play in spite of that I imagine the longevity it can offer to the game makes it worth it-. But genshin is a still a casual and exploration focused game first and foremost...
one weapon type i would love to see would be the cannon.
Cannoneers could function as a midway point between catalyst and bow users, long range aoe elemental dmg (basically a similar niche as Ganyus charge attack) but extremly slow atk speed. Their inherent trait is that they destroy all shields faster as if it was both elemental and blunt dmg and while having less DPS compared to bow user... (also they can break rocks because that aspect about catalysts annoys the hell out of me)