IMPROVED What If The Soviets Had Helped Iraq During The 1991 Gulf War? (WarGames 208b) | DCS
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- Original Vid: • What If The Soviets Ha...
Today we run a wargame to look at how more difficult Operation Desert Storm could have been if the Soviets had assisted Iraq directly.
PATREON: / grimreapers
0:00 Intro
2:11 Scenario Overview
3:46 Scenario Details
8:57 Mission
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#WarGames #GRWarGames #GulfWar #DesertStorm #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators #militaryhistory #DCS #DCSWORLD 
Игры
It was a lot of fun working with Cap a bit behind the scenes to provide some ideas, research and feedback for this scenario. I've been pretty excited and have been chatting about it with my wife, who normally would have no interest in watching a video game/war sim (just not her thing) but has asked to watch the video with me since it's something I am so into and was involved in. She's a wonderful woman and I am really looking forward to watching this with her later tonight. Thanks Cap for being open to my idea and for the time and energy put into making it a thing! :D
Cap pin?
Wow that was fun! My wife and I had a great time watching the video together. She was in a little over her head especially with the jargon but she got the gist of it and I had fun explaining some of it to her. She really enjoyed seeing the SAMs firing their missiles and the jets dodging. She said, while still not her thing, she can see why I enjoy this content so much.
The sim went really well I think and demonstrated how that increase in technology and training would have made things much more difficult for the Coalition. Not only would the Iraqi's have increased lethality in combat but that increased over all capability would also be very disruptive to Coalition operations. They would not be able to impose their will so easily and would have to adapt plans more often. This would have likely lengthened the conflict significantly, which in and of itself would have caused increased casualties. Tragically, many casualties in war occur from simple accidents. When you have people operating all that dangerous equipment, at a high operational tempo, accidents are bound to happen. People get hurt, material gets damaged or destroyed. The whole affair would have been much more complex and dangerous.
Brill thanks Chris!
reading this made me smile, you’ve got a wonderful woman by ur side
Great mission, lots of fun - well done! 😊
My job during the Gulf War was managing the tactical data links over the Gulf, callsign Zulu Foxtrot, from USS Mobile Bay that was in charge as the Anti-Air and Surface warfare commander. Our CNO’s after action says we detected, identified and reported over 65k aircraft with no blue on blue. The largest data link to date with over 120 participants. It was a sight to see!
fuck you for your service you didn't belong in iraq
You're no hero lol tactical data? No one cares about you
war criminal
Haha… I’m a “war criminal” in someone’s twisted mind.
@@papayne Well done war hero!
A flyable Tornado in DCS would be so cool.
theres one in the works
As the Japanese proved in WWII and GR proved today, using aircraft as missiles is not the best way to win a battle.
I was deployed as a "armored recon specialist" meaning I was a Bradley gunner attached to 1/7 Cav 1st Cavalry Division. We were responsible for a 70 mile stretch of the Saudi Arabian border with Iraq. If you start at the point where Kuwait, iraq, and Saudi Arabian borders meet we were handling from there 70 miles west. We covered that area with 36 Bradleys. We also had an additional 18 Bradleys and two troops of oh58s and cobras as our QRF. We also helped identifying targets for the air guys, and ground based pilot recovery for anyone that was close to our location. I did cover the retrieval of a helicopter crew. That was fun. People forget Iraq had the #6 Air Force, and the #4 army in the world at the time.
It's just as well for the western allies that, when the USSR re-equipped Iraq in '88, they did *not* give Iraq the services of Grumpnik. That would have made the whole thing near-impossible.
😆
Lmao! So true but Sadam didn’t care about his military and the it showed badly, they got smacked and I can’t remember but I think they had soldiers taking off their uniforms and abandoning their post, I know when we were sold the lie and went back into Iraq during the 2000’s that had allot of soldiers doing just that, I don’t even think they got any of their jets in the air. Those soldiers knew the pain was coming and that they were poorly equipped and trained.
@JackThelRipper - from what I've read and heard, Iraq had a two-tier military system. The Republican Guard was Saddam's personal army, and they got top-notch equipment and pretty good training. But the majority of Iraq's forces were poorly-equipped conscripts, so it's not surprising if they were deserting in droves.
That last ad for stoneburner... I laughted!
Same! Perfect timing as the F-16 failed to faceplant into a gigantic factory.
Simba has excellent segue skills 😂
Flying into combat with your nav lights on must be a UK thing...lol
I believe it is known as a "chad" move.
Nav lights make gives them a 50% armor buff 😂
FYI: Taking out the Flap Lid (the 10 on the RWR and HAD), disables the entire SA-10 site. The site cannot fire without a track radar. Although you do need to make sure there aren't multiple Flap Lids at the site.
can't the clamshell guide missile itself? I though that thing could track target
@@xpk0228 No. Search radars cannot track targets. But some track radars, like the SA-2, can search (poorly) and track. And of course integrated search/track radars, like an SA-6 or SA-8, can do both.
So for the SA-10 site with one BB, one CS, and one FL(10), taking out the BB and CS will cripple it, but not fully neutralize it, while taking out the 10 will neutralize it.
@@j4s0n39 so how well an SA10 with no search radar and only a flat lid work? Can it still be dangerous and shoot at targets?
@@xpk0228 I don't know about the SA-10 specifically. I have taken out a the SR at an SA-2 site and had it still shoot at me using only the TR, but the range was much shorter and it took the radar much longer to find me. The SR scans a wide area in a short amount of time, while the TR focuses on small areas.
The best way to find out is to hop into the cockpit and try it out. You can add the SA-10 as a template in the mission editor, then remove the BB and CS.
Also, everything I've said here applies to DCS. I have no idea how these things operate in the real world.
Entertaining as always. Bravo!
It was technically possible for even real world Iraq to have AWACS during GW1 as they had the Il-76 Baghdad 1/Adnan 1 and Baghdad 2/ Adnan 2. The Adnan 1 had a tail radome and a Thomson-CSF Tiger radar mounted on the ramp, the Adnan 2 had a Tiger in an E-3/A-50 style radome. How many aircraft were involved is unclear, certainly one Adnan 1 and possibly as many as 3 Adnan 2s (possibly including a reworked Adnan 1?). One, reported as both Adnan 1 and Adnan 2, was destroyed on the ground during GW1, at least one fled to Iran, was put into service with the IRIAF as the Simorgh, but was lost in a crash in 2009 during a flypast at a state parade marking the start of the Iran-Iraq war.
looking back, you never did a Peral Harber where the us had hours' notice and the ship left the harbor. that would be an interesting simulation if the war could have ended before it started by sinking the Japanize fleet.
I remember, from a video. Russia was going to send pilots to aid Iraq. But Russian pilots complained how poorly Iraq MiGs were and refused to help them.
I really doubt that they were going to do anything like that to antagonize the west, by 1991 they were well and truly done, foreign adventurism wasn't in the cards.
@@kenon6968 Russia was going to send fighter pilots to Aid Yugoslavia against NATO so do you really think, they wouldn’t send fighter pilots to against western nations for the experience. I agree they was in a terrible economic situation, but didn’t change their stance towards the west in the higher political structure.
Thats not true. They said it but there was no difference in the "Monkey Model" and the ones flown by the U.S.S.R. They were just embarrassed when the rest of the world got ahold of these things and saw what crap they were. So they made the myth of the export "Monkey Model" to save face.
@@anthonyb5279 Monkey models existed, the Soviets got 1st pick, Warsaw Pact 2nd and the rest got the worst. The Iraqi MiGs lacked RWRs and key avionics, most Syrian MiG-23s during the 1982 clashs had R-60s and R-3Rs as armaments and had radars from MiG-21s that the soviets used in 1970s. Iraqi MiG-29s also had R-60s instead of R-73s and their T-72 copies the Assad Babil was a copy of the Warsaw Pact T-72M1s with no composite armor. Even west does that till today, Ukrainian and Saudi abrams lack the DU inserts and optics/firecontrol system that US models have.
A well crafted mission....always fun when multiple cogs are moving at the same time to complete a common task
Should a real-life Independence Day happen when they are looking for pilots and when GR is asked what experience flying they have, they will say "unrealistic battle formations and Fox-4".
Hahaha ... indeed! 100% GR officially promoted to "world wide defense of alien invasion"!
Fantastic teamwork, gentlemen. Well done!
😆 😆
I just can't believe how well you've designed this war game. Great Job just really interesting and fun to watch. Keep on Keeping on.
Great re-do! Thanks GR
The US also used F 117 and tomahawk cruise missiles
Had to take a break from your video. F18s were flying over to land at the base. They do training here on Wednesday. SAR does the same with the Cormorant helicopters.
How fun to be able to watch them so close to home….albeit a bit noisy I’d image
@dexlab7539 F-18s aren't here much, but everyday it's Auroras, c 130s and search and rescue Cormorant helicopters. My son brings friends down and they are always amazed at the planes.
I've got video somewhere of the Blue Angels practicing over the Bay Of Fundy for the airshow here. Ot was amazing!
I'm so keen on this video
Sadam would place air defence in full residential areas, GF family had to flee to avoid the risk.
Well - if Iraq had additional support from Russia in 1988 they might have won the war against Iran, given the United States was also supporting Iraq against Iran during that war. (The Iran-Iraq war lasted until August of 88.) Considering my part in Desert Storm, I'm very happy the Russians DIDN'T provide Iraq with more advanced technology :) I was riding around the sand in a thin-skinned (unarmored) Humvee with a 900 watt loudspeaker doing PSYOPy stuff. As an aside: I always thought one of the large factors that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union was the logistical demonstration that we provided during Desert Storm. I can tell you that our logistics was NOT as good during Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Cap, from what I know a lot of aircraft operated from Dhahran, UK and American. There were at least six bases in Saudi Arabia that coalition aircraft, of all types, operated from. Can't recall if the tankers and AWACS were based out of Riyadh or not. memory is a bit sketchy now, getting older, don't you know.
Thanks!
Great video Cap
Habitual Linecrosser-inspired video idea: can the F-22 intercept the F-22? I assume it could get pretty close before early warning radar could detect it.
For role-play: the F-22s became sentient and the intrusive thoughts won.
AIM7's are pretty turd in every game I've played. It's actually surprising the 90's F15 did so well as they did with just Sparrows.
Well...for better or for worse, DCS has been well known to over model Russian equipment based on Russian claims of what it could do...which has been demonstrably proven to have been greatly exaggerated.
Great Mission - Don't forget Air Refueling Tankers :)
Good job humans! That was some nice team work. Also, Matrix's voice is sooo RAF. I love it :)
you were out of bombs but you could have lined up the sidewinders and used them. they will fire straight and will explode on impact. its a video game after all
Excellent demonstration of just how over-modeled all Russian weapons systems are in DCS; obviously, we're seeing this in Ukraine right now, but this goes way back.
Ukrainian Air Force completely wiped out in the first few months - I’d say it works quite well irl
Tornado's wings were indeed made by Italians, Aeritalia (now Leonardo) to be precice.
.... And yes, I did need to look it up ;)
I got something right!!!
Anyway you could redo it and add f117 and tomahawks hitting right before you all enter area in coordinated attack
New to the channel. Love your videos as the incorporate community members rather than you being an “invincible” pilot. Really wish DCS had F-111’s; would love to see a recreation of El Dorado Canyon with better defenses.
The Tonkas TFR would have helped quite a lot. Whole sortie at 50ft.
Sadly can;t force AI pilots that low.
Considering USAF Ace AI, was apparently less capable of a turnip. It seems Ed's vaunted AI improvement only buffed Redfor algorithms back a year or so ago.
I know they wouldn't work with this mission, and they're not in DCS, but one of my favorite RAF/RN planes of the Desert Shield/Storm era was the Blackburn Buccaneers.
Yay some Grim Reapers love for the Tornado thanks Cap 😊
That S300 volley launching interceptors.... just to get hit itself seconds later.... that looks awfully familiar lol
Tornadoes should have also flung some ALARM missles in front of them. These missiles could zoom climb and then loiter on a parachute, looking for radars to kill.
An All Your Base reference? Cap must be ancient indeed. Like me.
Didn't know stones burned!
Different kind of ‘stones’ my friend 😂
Thanks!, I Meam I needed that!…and demonitized 😜 🇨🇦 Veteran(old)
P.S. ‘Tornado’ favorite Military craft. (Non SR71)
Great mission Cap. Much improved from the previous version. Not because of the outcome, but the first one was so unrealistic sending in USAF fighter-bombers without any dedicated aerial escort against a wave of Mig-29s, Su-27s and MiG-31s. This time y'all did it right, and while the Eagles took losses, it was a tense mission where the Reaper pilots really had to fly well to stay alive. Good stuff! Suggestion for next time: Retry this, but now in 2003 with Operation Iraqi Freedom. Assume the Russians help Iraq rebuild after Desert Storm, and both sides return to the fight with the latest gear as of 2003. So HTS for the Vipers, AMRAAMs, more R-77s, SA-11, more advanced S-300s, etc. Could be really interesting to see what changed in 12 years.
Yup, sometimes we need a spectacular failure to get on the right track.
Cap, your narrative skills are on par with pretty much anyone currently on television. You have quite the knack for a concise explanation.
Now that I've buttered you up (I really meant it though), I would again like to suggest a scenario:
A re-enactment of the massive kamikaze attack on the USS Laffy in the spring of 1945. She took on something like 17 kamikazes, getting hit multiple times, but she never sank. How would an Arleigh Burke DD do in that situation? Obviously it could wipe out plenty of WW2 planes with its missiles. But what if it only fired its guns (no missiles)? Would it take any hits?
For anyone interested in WW2 naval history, I highly recommend the book, 'Hell From the Heavens' by John Wukovitz. It's an accurate, precise, and well written historical account.
Wouldn't a modern Arleigh Burke just... SM-2 the Kamikazes from over the horizon?
EDIT: nevermind...
Thanks, but we've already done Laffey twice, not sure we can run another one:
ruclips.net/video/M_FUGKxWkAo/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/B9LQtkUYoBw/видео.html
CCIP in the F-15SE works so much better than the hornet or Viper
I just watched Gulf War scenario from The Operations Room. He starts on the first day of the air war with the B-52's flying all the way from America, launched their weapons, then flew back. It took 52 aerial refueling sorties to get them the round trip. Then the Apache's obliterated a radar site on the border and then thousands of coalition jets were unleashed. If you haven't watched it, I highly recommend it when finished here.
ruclips.net/video/zxRgfBXn6Mg/видео.html&ab_channel=TheOperationsRoom
@GrimReapers
Hi, I've seen some of your missions which involved using flights of B-1's and B-52's and I was curious if you guys could cover the original plans for Arc Light I. It was basically a night-bombing raid on Kep airfield after the Vietnamese begun their spring offensive by attacking Camp Holloway (June 7th, 1965) which killed 7 and wounded 104.
The actual mission plans called for 30 x B-52F's being deployed to Anderson AFB from CONUS (at least some of the B-52's came from Mather AFB) on February 11th with the aircraft reloaded and refueled with iron bombs with a couple hours of down time for the crews. The aircraft were to takeoff out of Andersen AFB, rendezvous with KC-135's over the South China Sea, refuel; then fly to Tiger Island (aka Cồn Cỏ district which is an island 27 km east of Mũi Lay and part of the Quảng Trị province) off the DMZ, then drop to 500 ft ASL and ride along the coast of North Vietnam with a NW turn to overfly Hanoi (!) at 500' ASL (200-300' AGL) en route to Phuc Yen. With the aircraft carrying 27 x 1000 lb. internally and 24 x 750 lb. externally, they would pop up to 1500' AGL, drop on Phuc Yen then make a wide left turn while descending back to 500' ASL or AGL as demanded and exit NVN south of Thanh Hoah, then climb back to 45000' back to Andersen AFB.
The aircraft were expected to pass over Hanoi around 22:00 and all bombs off in a two minute window over Phuc Yen. It was expected to largely wiped out most all of North Vietnam's Air-Force (there was also a proposal for another raid on Gia Lam which was definitely on the JCS target list).
Thought there would be some variables that would be impractical to duplicate, such as...
1. There doesn't appear to be a SEA map though people have used other maps where applicable
2. While DCS doesn't have a B-52F, the B-52H would probably be good enough
3. The entire flight wouldn't have to be duplicated since you'd just need to cover an area equivalent to the approach to Tiger Island, an area of coast to parallel and a decent area of land to cover.
I think it would still be an interesting exercise for obvious reasons: The most obvious would be that, while Hanoi was nowhere near as heavily defended as it was later. I would be amazed if planes coming in at 200-500' wouldn't end up taking at least some fire and probably take a couple losses. The other would be to see what would have happened had we just went for the jugular.
Ultimately, the Arc Light I mission ended up being greatly modified with the aircraft carrying the same loadouts, but their targets now being aimed at enemy strongholds in the jungles of Vietnam: They were flying at 30000', and in 3-ship cells as was used for much of the rest of the war. The refueling tracks were arranged differently than what SAC normally used and there was radio silence during the mission (which was also a night bombing mission) which depended on the aircraft meeting the tanker on time.
The problem was the lead aircraft had a malfunction that required the first and second aircraft to switch and that crew wasn't as experienced and with a typhoon (Dinah) present, it ended up pulling the aircraft along at a higher than normal ground-speed. They decided to do a 360 to effectively compensate for the higher ground speed and two aircraft ended up colliding with each other. Other than the two aircraft lost in a mid-air, the mission largely went off without a hitch and most aircraft put their bombs in the target area though the Vietnamese apparently knew we were coming since they were all gone.
Great idea thanks!
I'm guessing that IRL F117s would have been tasked with removing the S-300s early in the war.
That would make sense.
Just a question, why no F-117's?
I'm actually thinking Operation 'Saddam's Wet Dream' worked out pretty good for the baddies.
Ooh an idea for role play what if saddam launched a preemptive strike into Saudi Arabia while the coalition forces were building up
So a full invasion with his million conscripts or just a scud barrage like what he sent to Israel? Then commit Iraqi air force against us naval assets in the gulf. If saddam could bag a carrier it would be a major trophy.
@@cpob2013 the full invasion would be cool to see but the scudd launch and air strikes would be more practical to do 🤔
Strike package zoo loo😱😱😱
If only I could join you on a mission, id fly a hot air balloon. 😀
With missiles on?
So a Chinese balloon then 😂
Missiles, the gun from an A-10, insults and tea. Apart from that just a big old hot air balloon in stealth midnight blue. 😎👍
Has a ground radar ever been used as a decoy to soak up HARMS?
It probably could but it's a dangerous game.
Isn't it 'SEE add' not 'Seed'?
The “a” is silent in British speak😂
Curious why F-117s weren't used in this battle.
I use the Stoneburner server exclusively for Fox 4s !! 😂😂😂
It would be interesting and perhaps more exciting to see the operations with the players playing the enemy to get more of an underdog vs Goliath scenario. This type of is really fun compared when f22 players seal club the AI.
Agreed
Well we know what would have happened based on the Ukraine. There would have been way more Russian scrap metal.
The Iraqi Airforce should have engaged within the Air Defense Umbrella, rather than die outside of it. If this was done, the SEAD and Air Combat would have mixed, creating a confusing and dangerous battlefield.
isn't it the typhoon , that had an italian and a Spanish wing, i can be wrong. feel free to correct me
Structurally Typhoon is German centre fuselage, Italian left wing, Spanish right wing, UK the rest.
thx, but weren't they talking about the tornado? going through concrete walls at departure?@@davidgillon2762
Ah, yes that's the one!
You have to consider the American intel who would know all this info😁🇨🇦
Feels good to be a winner! Feels good to be a gangster! Hehe
Where's Violet gone?
Oh yea, what happened to her??
Not allowed to seek out air to air...? Doesnt a mission like this require some measure of air superiority? I would imagine if a fighter has long range air to air, sees enemy air, they would engage. Seems silly to not allow air to air missles to be used in a mission such as this.
I may be wrong of course but that quip at the end of the briefing seemed odd.
The best Iraqi pilots flew MiG-25s so the MiG-31s should atleast get better pilots not rookies. These guys were veterans of Iran-Iraq war and had fought F-14s and had some kills, they even got the F-18 IRL the only confirmed air to air kill for the Iraqi airforce in 1991. Also R-73s were tested against NATO flares after German MiG-29s were available, they ignored them and would be a rain pain.
what ever people's thoughts on how much money, ethics, whatever.....of which i care 0%. JETS ARE JUST COOL! and...demonetized
What if? They would have been smoked!
Iraq had way more jets but pilots refused to fly because they knew they would get shot down
It was actually a deliberate decision by Saddam Hussein not to engage the Coalition in the air and preserve the Iraqi Air Force as a 'fleet in being' for political leverage after the war. Unfortunately the assumption they'd be safe in their HAS turned out to be a bad one.
On the contrary, right from the start of the war a number of Iraqi pilots took off and attacked Coalition forces, despite being heavily outnumbered and completely outclassed technologically and in terms of training.
Even with the enormous odds against then, an Iraqi MiG-25 scored a confirmed kill against an F-18 on the first night of the war, and there were a number of VERY close calls, plus some disputed claims by MiG-29's.
After about 48hrs of getting slaughtered, the Iraqi AF was ordered to stand down, so as to try and preserve Saddam's hold on power once the war ended - with mixed results.
first muahahahha (am not a kid)
youre a tool (youre a tool)