Fun story - I worked for The Office of the Mayor in NYC (under the tall one who couldn't tell nobody liked him). IT, who had nothing to do with implementation, security, or credentialing for physical access, blew a gasket. Their idiot manager was telling me he could "tell" which card I was using (he didn't have access to the card system), and he was going to get me fired if I used it. The Operations department was like "Oh, that's cool, you're weird, but we don't care as long as it still registers as you whenever you go somewhere." I explained how it all worked, and they were like "Oh, that's good to know, maybe we'll look into a more secure option for a future upgrade." Right way and a wrong way to handle that stuff.
Hahaha, I like your policy. Although, this was a fun exercise for me, just the same. (And I genuinely do try to honor whatever requests a hosting venue has when I'm invited)
@@CoincidenceTheorist i'm not quite sure what you're asking... are you inquiring if someone can effect the read range of their implants by wearing a copper bracelet on their wrist or a copper ring on their finger? To the best of my understanding of all known science on this topic... no. Even though copper is used in the manufacture of wires and antennas, merely having copper "nearby" an RFID transaction is unlikely to make a helpful impact.
Edit from later in the day: I looked up induction heater concerns on the Dangerous Things forum. The gist of it seems to be that it is possible to burn out an implant with an induction cook-top, but you really have to try at it. I am glad to know this now as I have been paranoid every time I would use the induction heater at work and would always keep my implant hand in my pocket as if I were working with live electricity. I will watch this later tonight, so hopefully you don't answer this in the video making me look like an idiot for asking here, but: How are these with induction heaters? I got one of these NExT implants a couple years ago while I was at Defcon, and I make sure to always keep my right hand far away from induction heaters because I am worried about the heater melting the copper coil or something. I am not so concerned about an injury from the heater, but I spent a lot of money on the chip+install (plus recovery time), and I just don't want the chip to stop working. I did try asking Dangerous Things for a non-sterile engineering sample so I could do an experiment, but unfortunately, they don't have any of those to just send me. Edit: I just checked Amazon, and I can get a 5 pack intended for pets for $7. If you don't answer this question in the video I will buy this and run my own experiment and post the results here as well as email them to you and post the findings to the Dangerous Things subreddit.
The miliary can actively power any passive RFID from a long distance but you just eluded to the risk of doing so. The other issue is when we did our part of the testing, we needed to identify approximately 200 tags across a couple of buildings. The system found EVERY RFID w/in several hundred yards. We're talking approximately 80K RFID tags. For our purposes, it wasn't feasible to use it so we wrote up our findings and moved on.
@adf360 personally, I would have to read a write-up documenting such experimentation in order to fully digest and believe it completely, but what you propose does sound fascinating, just the same
I love that Dev knows he is unable to resist answering questions, so has gamified the audience into not asking them. ❤🤣 I've gotta do this when I talk.
I used to work in veterinary RFID (125/128/134.2 kHz LF, but different protocols than access control credentials use). Your water meter analogy for how RFID communication works is the clearest explanation I’ve ever heard. Bravo! Anyway, implantable RFID is *not* right for me. I’m very needle-squeamish, despite working around a million 12ga needles for over 7 years.
Love my NExT implant! Depending on the gathering I go to I swap out my "business card" I have loaded (work / hackers / personal) and of course have a door access credential of some flavor loaded in there as well...all thanks to Dev and his talks that I learned about all this. Love your vids!
Loved this talk! I generally try to be as unidentifiable as possible, so implanted tech isn't a place I'm likely to go, but I really enjoy learning about all of the possibilities. However, the thing I loved most was that call to empathy at the end. Yes, please ridicule bad actors! But don't ridicule the ignorant (unless they're to the point of using intentional ignorance as a cover for bad action, then go for it). I wish everyone could have that attitude.
I'm so glad that you appreciated that part... we can clearly see that there was time pressure at the end so I had to do a little hurry-up but I'm so grateful that they allowed things to run a minute or two longer
Man, I always love these talks, also answers my question that I had like 5-6 years ago when I was first using a keyfob regularly and I was like "how does this magical piece of plastic work, hm.." Forgot about the sprinkler talk, never thought I'd be so excited to watch a talk on fire sprinklers. Can't wait for more of these!
These slides were awesome!! I can't imagine how much or little work went into making these because they flow so well in the presentation.. I've been waiting on getting jabbed and trying the wearables and was so excited to see you go through a lot of these in addition to navigating the future of this stuff!
I remember finding out about dangerous things a decade ago or something like that and ever since I've wanted something like this but never actually got it done Amazing talk!
Thank you for this talk, I have wanted to play with one of these for a while but wasn't sure which to go with and found the terminology a little opaque. Also really appreciated the part at the end, I know a "targeted individual" and I think your message about empathy was incredibly important.
Been waiting for this talk for a while, and it was well worth the wait! Now I can point it to friends who are curious and want to know more. Adding the slides directly was a fantastic move, I bet it was a ton of work and I thank you very much for it!
Love the talk, been looking at those implants ever since I moved to an appartment with fobs. Small thing tho, at 47:10 you say NXP is from Germany. Very close, but they are from the Netherlands :)
Or bonded to a watch band too.. or the back of a key ring or inside a key case to be flatter or one at either end of an phone case too with some padding cut in the otterbox case or some like.
Great talk. Love the closing comments. "Deprogram via empathy" It does not always work. If we put out the facts no one can say "Why didn't you tell me" Fighting ignorance is not a battle anyone may win, but ignorance can be reduced. .
Holy shit those PegLeg photos. Now that's next level. Thank you as always for your well-edited upload and your consideration for the VoD watchers (repeating audience questions etc.)
I've been using a NExT implant every day for a few years now. Did my own surgery and everything. I love it. Magically putting my contact info into people's phones is a fantastic icebreaker / party trick for social incompetents like myself. (Amal's going swimming McDuck style after this video lol)
Yes, the XBT but the margin of error is a bit larger than preferred, also they are only LF currently so you need a flipper to read it no cell phone readout
Would prox readers that try to skim credentials be thwarted by a fob that requires you to push a button on it to broadcast credentials? So you only “shout your number” when you intend to get in the building?
I'm going to have to do the xMagic chip this year! I really want to be able to clone hotel credentials! I love having my door access on my LF chip and vcard on my HF chip right now! Excellent primer talk! I really need to schedule a trip to RTA for some training next year!
Hey Deviant, I'd love to get your opinion as someone with an implant who is knowledgeable about it and the surrounding field. What drove you/your wife/etc towards getting the implant as opposed to some form of external form factor for the chip? To my understanding going with something like a ring/bracelet/etc would improve field strength (might reduce the need for those - admittedly cool - field shapers) and lead to more repeatable/reliable read/write operations. And it gives an easier path to upgradability/changes down the line should the wider field change standards/drop legacy support. Been looking into an implant for years now but my use case has changed frequently enough that I've never been able to fully commit to a solution quite that permanent. Are there particular benefits (other than the obvious cool factor) to the implant that drove you towards that route? Excellent talk as ever, hope I can make it to one in person someday. Fly safe out there.
Since Deviant does physical security testing he spoke in a talk about pretending to swipe a visitors badge on a job with a security guard next to him but in reality he was using the implant with a cledential they earlier from the security guard iirc.
Here I am not two weeks after watching this video with a 3-days-ago implanted xMagic in my left hand. I had already been considering it but this pretty much cleared up any and all concern so I did the cyborgification! Thank you so much for all the amazing content you share with us, Dev!
I would love to get a couple of these implants, have looked at them for years. TBH I don't really have a use for them, I just think they're neat. I'll probably end up getting an RFID ring to put my work access card credentials on and do hotel room keys with. Great talk Dev, always love how accessible you make learning.
The idea of implants is terrifying (I hate even needles the idea of something poking into me) but I would love to hear some other creative ideas with these...maybe potting them into a sports watch band, or if small enough a watch itself? I have a Mifaire Classic 1K wristband that works at some hotels but it also is kinda funky for business explaining why I have it vs something more normal like a watch or ring. I've not found a ring that works (even the DangerousThings NFC ring wouldn't even read on most door-locks) Having a wrist band for a hotel key would be amazing for when hands are full or you don't have pockets (e.g. swimwear, costumes, etc). Hell I'd pay extra for a wrist watch band style key if hotels offered such a thing!
Great wolf lodges use cards on a band so you can use all their water park stuff and not lose your card. There are a variety of access card styles too and I'm sure I haven't seen most of them.
I order MRI frequently. If the patient has a pacemaker, nerve stimulator or other electronic implant, then that specific model has to have been tested and certified MR compliant. If not, then the scan will not go ahead. If you can provide certification for your specific model of implant, then you can have a scan. You could have the implant removed to facilitate the scan. I have removed foreign objects. Though being able to feel a foreign object makes the procedure easier, removing them is much less fun than inserting them, and much much more expensive.
I bought a NeXT implant and a Proxmark 3 kit about two years ago, but I never actually got the implant because I couldn't figure out how to get the Proxmark to clone any of the RFIDs I used for work. I had two different cards for gate/door control, and also a card for accessing my local bicycle lockup, and I couldn't clone any of them to the blank test cards the Proxmark comes with. I don't know if I'm just stupid, or if those blank cards weren't the right type (one was HF and one was LF and I could at least identify which was which), but I tried for three days and couldn't clone a single card. The implant kit is still sitting in its box on my shelf. I wasn't game to get it done if I didn't know I could make it work for my work cards. But I've lost that job now anyway. If I get a new job that uses access cards I'll reconsider, I can't really see a use-case for myself otherwise :C
Pedant time, that's not a Venn Diagram, that's an Euler Diagram. Venn Diagrams show all regions even if empty (say UHF that's not RFID, where a different talk might put 978 MHz and 1090 MHz used for ADS-B), Euler Diagrams only show relevant ones.
Funnily enough I actually found you, and pen testing in general from the modern rouge's video, when I was doing online schooling, and probably ment to be doing school work
I know you've posted videos on Tank Circuits, have you or any of your friends made/thought about making a tank-glove? That is a grove with a tank circuit where implanted RFIDs are put.
I got my first magnet (DT Titan) several months ago and it's settled in well, but I'd wanted to get it since sometime around like 2010, 2011 when a Lepht Anonym article "Scrapheap Transhumanism" blew me completely away in H+ magazine. Even tried once with a gold plated magnet that worked it's way out in half a week in like 2014. Started following Ollam from the various security talks after seeing the horrors of political corruption up close in 2018-2019, absolutely wild to hear you mention that name. And this whole subject. Great info though, I work with electric motors (designing them) these days and I was wondering if those power levels would be enough to scramble the chip implants, good to know I'd probably be in decent shape. Really though I think the magnet's cooler than a chip. I mean opening doors with a hand is neat, but having an additional sense, another layer on seeing the world, is so freaking cool. Still want me some chips.
I always look forward to when you post a new presentation. Your ability as a speaker, as well as your knowledge, make the presentations interesting. I also really appreciate that you take time to address the human element - people are often afraid of what they don't know and taking a minute to talk to them can help them understand.
Awesome talk, as usual. Deviant always gives great talks. I’m really glad that you put everything online also, because so many times, I’m going through the talk trying to copy down the information, so it’s nice to be able to just get it all online afterwards, and just enjoy the talk.
Perfect, I just decided I wanted one a couple days ago and started looking into options here in Germany. So it's perfect to get some fresh new info here, I want to be a hundred percent sure on all levels y'know. ;)
@@AlexPhidiasi'm from Austria :) we have also a nice community here in Austria and Germany... I have several chips implanted. I have also some videos on my channel
Is there any that can store multiple keys, and give back different depending on the reader? For example if a phone reads it it gives an url, if a key reader it gives a password. Or if somebody wants something like this still have to liik like the illustration on the beginning of the presentation? 😀
I once cloned a Mifare Classic 1K keycard by copying the UID to a magic card. It didn't work directly with the door locks, but after presenting it to the "refresh station" where keys had to be refreshed like once a week, the station wrote a valid key to it that the doors then accepted.
44:30 It’s not exclusively payments; eg hotel apps will give you an NFC key to your room. Seems like phone unlock would be pretty doable (payment shouldn’t work with a locked phone), although phone lock if moved away from the chip (requiring using NFC continuously while the phone is open) probably wouldn’t.
@@AlexPhidias well MRIs aren't something we stand in... You might mean something like the millimeter wave or backscatter x-ray? In either case, no. There are chair type scanners that people sometimes sit in which are used in high security prisons. There's a chance one of them might pick it up. But even then not a guarantee. Something like an MRI would potentially show it or a CAT scan might, but those are beds that you lay on and get pushed through a machine.
When you are traveling, what are you using for cloning the card to your hand at a hotel? I don't really want to carry around the proxmark 3 easy and laptop.
I might just end up getting one of those DNA-altering demon seed things under my skin. Before that though, I want to try out some external RFID wearables and I thank you Dev for introducing those options as well, it's a great way to see if the things are useful enough that it's worth implanting.
I bought a NExT implant but I cannot for the life of me find a piercer/tattoo artist in the St. Louis area who will help me insert it, any tips on finding someone or recommendations on approaching this? I'm not really comfortable doing the injection myself 😅
@@eriequiet yeah I did the whole make an appointment & show up with documentation in hand thing with several, they seem really squirrelly about it in my area. I'll pop over to the forum again & see if I can find any pearls. TY
The most impressive to me in all this is not the communication technology itself, because we had that already and you can just put it in the plastic or simulate on a separate device like Flipper. The fact that we can shove that shit into the body and, as far as we've seen, there is no issues with that and if needed it can be fixed or removed no problem, is amazing.
This would be great really great for dementia patients like my Dad just in case they wonder and get lost. So it has the potential of saving lives. Basically like how we RFID our pets but for hunans
I bought a chip and one of those dog chipper syringe kits from ali express and just replaced the chip. my gf was a nurse and implanted it after researching a bit online. the novelty quickly wore off if you cant pay with it and the reception is pretty poor. you have to be on the skin with low powered readers
I don't think I would recommend a NExT (mixed LF/HF) tag just because I lot of the omni reader / migration readers that can read both LF/HF tags get confused when you try to pass a HF token but it reads a different LF tag. So, personally, I'd rather have a dedicated LF side and a HF tag in the other hand.
Payment is so amazing. Got the first payment chip in 2020. Patrick from the Netherlands was the first Person in the world who paid with his hand. Some people look at you like: WTF did happend, when you pay with your hand.
Loved the video. Not gone down the implant route but have a couple of rings which I used to get into the buildings (T5577) in my last employment. Thanks for the inspiration to get the Proxmark 3 Easy out of the cupboard and have a play with some hotel cards.
Short answer no, Long answer is sort of possible but a bit difficult and technical, If memory serves someone on the dt forum had 2 different credentials of the same protocol stacked on one another, and it worked, I don’t think you can do different at the same time
@eriequiet would have thought one could detect the type and have different storage locations..... analogous to vhost in apache2 ;) but I guess you'd just have a KeePass database on your PC and if you need to switch creds you would restore from that
@@katanasteelyea most of the basic stuff doesn’t really “detect” it just farts out its payload like Dev illustrated… some of the more complex hf stuff has different sectors so different stuff can access different portions… but it’s not really “different” credentials.. more like different pieces At least that’s what I understand, most of that is over what I tinker with
Seems odd to me to put it in your hand when it could just as easily be put in your watchband, wedding ring, or sleeve and be just as unobtrusive, stealthy, and convenient.
I liked this, and then unliked it, just so I could like it again. Once I can figure out a valid use case for RFID I would really like to get one of these at the bio-hacking village some day.
@@AugustMcKenna I agree. Although transit systems are generally very hesitant to permit this sort of thing because they think it undermines their credibility or will somehow break billing.
@@DeviantOllam you're correct, the old blue Orca cards are DESFire EV1 4K & the new (lame) black Orca cards are DESFire EV3 2K. the old ones have a whole ton of data (keeping track of the last 10-15 payments/Top-ups on the card, plus the current balance (very handy)), but the new ones just have a 96 byte standard file & 48 byte backup file.
But what happens if I RFID my bank safety deposit box safe, then catch whatever and die, and somebody digs up my body and chops off my hand to rob the bank! LOL.
what does it take to use a passive device actively? such as how low range bluetooth devices can be amplified and hacked longrange, nobody likes to talk about this :(
you can't "make" a passive device operate actively. active RFID involves the tag/credential having its own internal power supply (often a battery) in those cases, the credential tag is more properly called a transponder. there are no bio implants that are transponders, to my knowledge. (I mean maybe someone, somewhere is making an experimental widget in their garage, but nothing exists on the market)
You can place it plenty of other locations, but palm or and gripping zones are specifically not recommended, you don’t want it in a location that will see a lot of movement, and somewhere with some separation from bone and and little flesh padding
I've been doing NFC,RFID dermal tagging for 15 years. I have several myself and will be doing more until my left arm glows like a God..or alien. I think an alien would be more socially accessible than God 😂
I remember being young and dumb (and a myriad of other things not worth mentioning), and wanting to get a NExT chip around the time they first came out. It seems that this video has lit the fire in under me once again but I’m still glad I waited, the xMagic seems very promising! ^^
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Fun story - I worked for The Office of the Mayor in NYC (under the tall one who couldn't tell nobody liked him). IT, who had nothing to do with implementation, security, or credentialing for physical access, blew a gasket. Their idiot manager was telling me he could "tell" which card I was using (he didn't have access to the card system), and he was going to get me fired if I used it.
The Operations department was like "Oh, that's cool, you're weird, but we don't care as long as it still registers as you whenever you go somewhere." I explained how it all worked, and they were like "Oh, that's good to know, maybe we'll look into a more secure option for a future upgrade."
Right way and a wrong way to handle that stuff.
Putting Deviant on a time-restraint for a talk is a crime.
DeviantCon when
Hahaha, I like your policy. Although, this was a fun exercise for me, just the same. (And I genuinely do try to honor whatever requests a hosting venue has when I'm invited)
Very very very large props for the PSA at the end calling for empathy and patience. More of it is needed in this world.
Very nice talk :)
I agree 😍
Looking forward to seeing you in the comments, etc 😁
Haha, of course you're in here, Amal.
@@DeviantOllam can and external copper bracelet or ringer etc help. Increase range etc
@@CoincidenceTheorist i'm not quite sure what you're asking... are you inquiring if someone can effect the read range of their implants by wearing a copper bracelet on their wrist or a copper ring on their finger?
To the best of my understanding of all known science on this topic... no. Even though copper is used in the manufacture of wires and antennas, merely having copper "nearby" an RFID transaction is unlikely to make a helpful impact.
Edit from later in the day: I looked up induction heater concerns on the Dangerous Things forum. The gist of it seems to be that it is possible to burn out an implant with an induction cook-top, but you really have to try at it. I am glad to know this now as I have been paranoid every time I would use the induction heater at work and would always keep my implant hand in my pocket as if I were working with live electricity.
I will watch this later tonight, so hopefully you don't answer this in the video making me look like an idiot for asking here, but:
How are these with induction heaters? I got one of these NExT implants a couple years ago while I was at Defcon, and I make sure to always keep my right hand far away from induction heaters because I am worried about the heater melting the copper coil or something. I am not so concerned about an injury from the heater, but I spent a lot of money on the chip+install (plus recovery time), and I just don't want the chip to stop working. I did try asking Dangerous Things for a non-sterile engineering sample so I could do an experiment, but unfortunately, they don't have any of those to just send me.
Edit: I just checked Amazon, and I can get a 5 pack intended for pets for $7. If you don't answer this question in the video I will buy this and run my own experiment and post the results here as well as email them to you and post the findings to the Dangerous Things subreddit.
Cheap shitty Qi chargers are more problematic… they tend to be very badly tuned
@@eriequietwow, I never thought of this sort of issue ... I'm excited to hear your results!
The miliary can actively power any passive RFID from a long distance but you just eluded to the risk of doing so. The other issue is when we did our part of the testing, we needed to identify approximately 200 tags across a couple of buildings. The system found EVERY RFID w/in several hundred yards. We're talking approximately 80K RFID tags. For our purposes, it wasn't feasible to use it so we wrote up our findings and moved on.
@ you are likely talking about UHF rfid,
Lf and HF don’t work like that
@adf360 personally, I would have to read a write-up documenting such experimentation in order to fully digest and believe it completely, but what you propose does sound fascinating, just the same
I love that Dev knows he is unable to resist answering questions, so has gamified the audience into not asking them. ❤🤣
I've gotta do this when I talk.
I used to work in veterinary RFID (125/128/134.2 kHz LF, but different protocols than access control credentials use). Your water meter analogy for how RFID communication works is the clearest explanation I’ve ever heard. Bravo! Anyway, implantable RFID is *not* right for me. I’m very needle-squeamish, despite working around a million 12ga needles for over 7 years.
Makes sense to me. I work with lathes and laboratory glassware all day, but I wouldn't want either of them inside of my body lol.
Love my NExT implant! Depending on the gathering I go to I swap out my "business card" I have loaded (work / hackers / personal) and of course have a door access credential of some flavor loaded in there as well...all thanks to Dev and his talks that I learned about all this. Love your vids!
Thanks so much! So glad you're getting so much use out of yours.
Loved this talk!
I generally try to be as unidentifiable as possible, so implanted tech isn't a place I'm likely to go, but I really enjoy learning about all of the possibilities.
However, the thing I loved most was that call to empathy at the end. Yes, please ridicule bad actors! But don't ridicule the ignorant (unless they're to the point of using intentional ignorance as a cover for bad action, then go for it). I wish everyone could have that attitude.
Dev you are a gem for the last 5 minutes of your talk
I'm so glad that you appreciated that part... we can clearly see that there was time pressure at the end so I had to do a little hurry-up but I'm so grateful that they allowed things to run a minute or two longer
Man, I always love these talks, also answers my question that I had like 5-6 years ago when I was first using a keyfob regularly and I was like "how does this magical piece of plastic work, hm.."
Forgot about the sprinkler talk, never thought I'd be so excited to watch a talk on fire sprinklers. Can't wait for more of these!
These slides were awesome!! I can't imagine how much or little work went into making these because they flow so well in the presentation.. I've been waiting on getting jabbed and trying the wearables and was so excited to see you go through a lot of these in addition to navigating the future of this stuff!
I remember finding out about dangerous things a decade ago or something like that and ever since I've wanted something like this but never actually got it done
Amazing talk!
no time like the present! take the plunge!
Thank you for this talk, I have wanted to play with one of these for a while but wasn't sure which to go with and found the terminology a little opaque.
Also really appreciated the part at the end, I know a "targeted individual" and I think your message about empathy was incredibly important.
i appreciate the feedback very much
Been waiting for this talk for a while, and it was well worth the wait! Now I can point it to friends who are curious and want to know more.
Adding the slides directly was a fantastic move, I bet it was a ton of work and I thank you very much for it!
i am at 5 implants and counting, and I still want more. Love my implants and use them everyday.
You can get addicted 😂
34 and i want more
@@SandraWuerthnerwhere do they all go?!
@@henrikoldcorn hands, forearm, upperarm, one in the tragus, 2 in the breast on in the leg
Love the talk, been looking at those implants ever since I moved to an appartment with fobs. Small thing tho, at 47:10 you say NXP is from Germany. Very close, but they are from the Netherlands :)
i would like to request/suggest a followup youtube video with any good questions you got at the conference or here in the youtube comments please
the flexible flat ones look like they could easily be put in a sleeve or glove.
As with the booster.
Or bonded to a watch band too.. or the back of a key ring or inside a key case to be flatter or one at either end of an phone case too with some padding cut in the otterbox case or some like.
That is where the fingernails work so well.
Yet another awesome and very informative talk. Thanks Dev, keep up the great work. 💙
Great talk. Love the closing comments. "Deprogram via empathy" It does not always work. If we put out the facts no one can say "Why didn't you tell me"
Fighting ignorance is not a battle anyone may win, but ignorance can be reduced. .
Holy shit those PegLeg photos. Now that's next level. Thank you as always for your well-edited upload and your consideration for the VoD watchers (repeating audience questions etc.)
I've been using a NExT implant every day for a few years now. Did my own surgery and everything. I love it.
Magically putting my contact info into people's phones is a fantastic icebreaker / party trick for social incompetents like myself.
(Amal's going swimming McDuck style after this video lol)
Bot?
Do any of the implants show body temp? Some of the chips for pets have a temperature readout.
Yes, the XBT but the margin of error is a bit larger than preferred, also they are only LF currently so you need a flipper to read it no cell phone readout
There is a new chip that does something like this. I believe dangerous things has been working with it.
@@DeviantOllam I don’t need such a thing, but I could see the usefulness of it. I just ordered the xMagic v2 from DT.
Thank you for the great talk and the editing you put into it. It was very useful, it's something I've been thinking about.
Would prox readers that try to skim credentials be thwarted by a fob that requires you to push a button on it to broadcast credentials? So you only “shout your number” when you intend to get in the building?
I'm going to have to do the xMagic chip this year! I really want to be able to clone hotel credentials! I love having my door access on my LF chip and vcard on my HF chip right now! Excellent primer talk! I really need to schedule a trip to RTA for some training next year!
That's absolutely wonderful. And yes we look forward to seeing you anytime in class.
I don't want to get an implant, but super interesting nonetheless!
Hey Deviant, I'd love to get your opinion as someone with an implant who is knowledgeable about it and the surrounding field. What drove you/your wife/etc towards getting the implant as opposed to some form of external form factor for the chip? To my understanding going with something like a ring/bracelet/etc would improve field strength (might reduce the need for those - admittedly cool - field shapers) and lead to more repeatable/reliable read/write operations. And it gives an easier path to upgradability/changes down the line should the wider field change standards/drop legacy support.
Been looking into an implant for years now but my use case has changed frequently enough that I've never been able to fully commit to a solution quite that permanent. Are there particular benefits (other than the obvious cool factor) to the implant that drove you towards that route?
Excellent talk as ever, hope I can make it to one in person someday. Fly safe out there.
Since Deviant does physical security testing he spoke in a talk about pretending to swipe a visitors badge on a job with a security guard next to him but in reality he was using the implant with a cledential they earlier from the security guard iirc.
Here I am not two weeks after watching this video with a 3-days-ago implanted xMagic in my left hand. I had already been considering it but this pretty much cleared up any and all concern so I did the cyborgification! Thank you so much for all the amazing content you share with us, Dev!
I would love to get a couple of these implants, have looked at them for years. TBH I don't really have a use for them, I just think they're neat. I'll probably end up getting an RFID ring to put my work access card credentials on and do hotel room keys with. Great talk Dev, always love how accessible you make learning.
The idea of implants is terrifying (I hate even needles the idea of something poking into me) but I would love to hear some other creative ideas with these...maybe potting them into a sports watch band, or if small enough a watch itself? I have a Mifaire Classic 1K wristband that works at some hotels but it also is kinda funky for business explaining why I have it vs something more normal like a watch or ring. I've not found a ring that works (even the DangerousThings NFC ring wouldn't even read on most door-locks)
Having a wrist band for a hotel key would be amazing for when hands are full or you don't have pockets (e.g. swimwear, costumes, etc). Hell I'd pay extra for a wrist watch band style key if hotels offered such a thing!
Great wolf lodges use cards on a band so you can use all their water park stuff and not lose your card. There are a variety of access card styles too and I'm sure I haven't seen most of them.
Groovy, thanks for the education
I order MRI frequently. If the patient has a pacemaker, nerve stimulator or other electronic implant, then that specific model has to have been tested and certified MR compliant. If not, then the scan will not go ahead. If you can provide certification for your specific model of implant, then you can have a scan.
You could have the implant removed to facilitate the scan. I have removed foreign objects. Though being able to feel a foreign object makes the procedure easier, removing them is much less fun than inserting them, and much much more expensive.
I bought a NeXT implant and a Proxmark 3 kit about two years ago, but I never actually got the implant because I couldn't figure out how to get the Proxmark to clone any of the RFIDs I used for work. I had two different cards for gate/door control, and also a card for accessing my local bicycle lockup, and I couldn't clone any of them to the blank test cards the Proxmark comes with. I don't know if I'm just stupid, or if those blank cards weren't the right type (one was HF and one was LF and I could at least identify which was which), but I tried for three days and couldn't clone a single card. The implant kit is still sitting in its box on my shelf. I wasn't game to get it done if I didn't know I could make it work for my work cards. But I've lost that job now anyway. If I get a new job that uses access cards I'll reconsider, I can't really see a use-case for myself otherwise :C
A phenomenal talk, as usual, Dev. I'm consistently blown away with your charisma and effective communication.
Pedant time, that's not a Venn Diagram, that's an Euler Diagram. Venn Diagrams show all regions even if empty (say UHF that's not RFID, where a different talk might put 978 MHz and 1090 MHz used for ADS-B), Euler Diagrams only show relevant ones.
I, too, am a pedant and I've already updated my slides to reflect this detail for any future occasion when I might share this material again! =D
Funnily enough I actually found you, and pen testing in general from the modern rouge's video, when I was doing online schooling, and probably ment to be doing school work
I know you've posted videos on Tank Circuits, have you or any of your friends made/thought about making a tank-glove? That is a grove with a tank circuit where implanted RFIDs are put.
I got my first magnet (DT Titan) several months ago and it's settled in well, but I'd wanted to get it since sometime around like 2010, 2011 when a Lepht Anonym article "Scrapheap Transhumanism" blew me completely away in H+ magazine. Even tried once with a gold plated magnet that worked it's way out in half a week in like 2014. Started following Ollam from the various security talks after seeing the horrors of political corruption up close in 2018-2019, absolutely wild to hear you mention that name. And this whole subject.
Great info though, I work with electric motors (designing them) these days and I was wondering if those power levels would be enough to scramble the chip implants, good to know I'd probably be in decent shape.
Really though I think the magnet's cooler than a chip. I mean opening doors with a hand is neat, but having an additional sense, another layer on seeing the world, is so freaking cool. Still want me some chips.
Another great talk Dev. Thanks
Thanks for enjoying it!
Love the Harry Houdini message at the end of your talk.
I always look forward to when you post a new presentation. Your ability as a speaker, as well as your knowledge, make the presentations interesting. I also really appreciate that you take time to address the human element - people are often afraid of what they don't know and taking a minute to talk to them can help them understand.
Thank you so much for saying all that ☺️👍
Grrr, thanks for the reminder, RUclips! ONLY a couple hours late.
Awesome talk, as usual. Deviant always gives great talks. I’m really glad that you put everything online also, because so many times, I’m going through the talk trying to copy down the information, so it’s nice to be able to just get it all online afterwards, and just enjoy the talk.
Perfect, I just decided I wanted one a couple days ago and started looking into options here in Germany.
So it's perfect to get some fresh new info here, I want to be a hundred percent sure on all levels y'know. ;)
Please update here once you got one. I am quite interested how you'd go about it here in Germany
@@AlexPhidiasi'm from Austria :) we have also a nice community here in Austria and Germany...
I have several chips implanted.
I have also some videos on my channel
I can help you :) I'm from Austria. I have 34 chips / magnets implanted.
Is there any that can store multiple keys, and give back different depending on the reader? For example if a phone reads it it gives an url, if a key reader it gives a password. Or if somebody wants something like this still have to liik like the illustration on the beginning of the presentation? 😀
Loved the talk!
I once cloned a Mifare Classic 1K keycard by copying the UID to a magic card. It didn't work directly with the door locks, but after presenting it to the "refresh station" where keys had to be refreshed like once a week, the station wrote a valid key to it that the doors then accepted.
My favorite teacher! ❤
awe, thank you 😊
44:30 It’s not exclusively payments; eg hotel apps will give you an NFC key to your room. Seems like phone unlock would be pretty doable (payment shouldn’t work with a locked phone), although phone lock if moved away from the chip (requiring using NFC continuously while the phone is open) probably wouldn’t.
45:25 I was literally wondeing which hf tag to get so that no matter how drunk I got at conventions I could still get back into my room
Does TSA have an issue with the implants?
Zero. None of their equipment can detect them.
Copper is not magnetic and won't set off any metal /magnetic detector.
How about body scanners? The stand in MRI thingies?
Magnetic resonance images. Shouldn't be an issue, because copper won't interact with the spinning magnets. Not a doctor tho
@@AlexPhidias well MRIs aren't something we stand in... You might mean something like the millimeter wave or backscatter x-ray?
In either case, no.
There are chair type scanners that people sometimes sit in which are used in high security prisons. There's a chance one of them might pick it up. But even then not a guarantee.
Something like an MRI would potentially show it or a CAT scan might, but those are beds that you lay on and get pushed through a machine.
When you are traveling, what are you using for cloning the card to your hand at a hotel? I don't really want to carry around the proxmark 3 easy and laptop.
Flipper zero does pretty good for a lot of stuff
I might just end up getting one of those DNA-altering demon seed things under my skin. Before that though, I want to try out some external RFID wearables and I thank you Dev for introducing those options as well, it's a great way to see if the things are useful enough that it's worth implanting.
I bought a NExT implant but I cannot for the life of me find a piercer/tattoo artist in the St. Louis area who will help me insert it, any tips on finding someone or recommendations on approaching this? I'm not really comfortable doing the injection myself 😅
Pop onto the dangerous things forum, we have a whole thread about how to find and approach installers… spoiler don’t call
@@eriequiet yeah I did the whole make an appointment & show up with documentation in hand thing with several, they seem really squirrelly about it in my area. I'll pop over to the forum again & see if I can find any pearls. TY
I've heard some nurses will insert them...
The most impressive to me in all this is not the communication technology itself, because we had that already and you can just put it in the plastic or simulate on a separate device like Flipper. The fact that we can shove that shit into the body and, as far as we've seen, there is no issues with that and if needed it can be fixed or removed no problem, is amazing.
the best at the end.
Excellent as always
I was on the verge of getting a next implant and then covid happened. Suddenly very tempted again now that that magic combo chip and apex are a thing
I have an implant. It moved after years. I think the scar tissue encapsulating the rfid chip ruptured allowing it to move. Bummer.
What did you do to fix it? Did you have to take it out?
@@lea5606 it's still in there. Just deeper than it should be. No one is going to do hand surgery to remove it unless it's broken or something.
This would be great really great for dementia patients like my Dad just in case they wonder and get lost. So it has the potential of saving lives. Basically like how we RFID our pets but for hunans
they don't let you track somebody down though
@@TheAechBomb no but you can put the person's ID and their loved ones and other important information in text like how they do it for pets
It sounds like magnets aren’t a problem for health, but are they for data?
Wondering if I can overload an implant with a low power pocket emp generator.
Technically possible, practically difficult due to the coupling issues
Do you have a link for the video you mentioned about the proxmark alternatives with Naomi?
I bought a chip and one of those dog chipper syringe kits from ali express and just replaced the chip. my gf was a nurse and implanted it after researching a bit online. the novelty quickly wore off if you cant pay with it and the reception is pretty poor. you have to be on the skin with low powered readers
I got chipped in part because of you, Deev! Can’t lose the gate keycard now!
That's really neat! What credential technology does your gate system use? Regular ol' HID Prox? Something else?
@@DeviantOllam Just plain ol’ hidprox, heh.
@@howlingwolven love it ☺️
@@DeviantOllam And ‘cos it a NeXT is also got my carrd on the HF side! And my phone is set to rickroll whenever I scan it. 😂
I don't think I would recommend a NExT (mixed LF/HF) tag just because I lot of the omni reader / migration readers that can read both LF/HF tags get confused when you try to pass a HF token but it reads a different LF tag. So, personally, I'd rather have a dedicated LF side and a HF tag in the other hand.
I believe some have essentially loaded a blank format on the LF if the run in such a scenario
Awesome talk. Anyone have any recommendation for an LF ring?
Payment is so amazing. Got the first payment chip in 2020.
Patrick from the Netherlands was the first Person in the world who paid with his hand.
Some people look at you like: WTF did happend, when you pay with your hand.
I can get tagged with the Mark of the Beast with any of these mods? I thought I had to pay extra for that.
there's enough memory to write '666' to most of them :P
Amazing talk!
Have you heard of anyone talk about copying their HSPD-12 compliant PIV/CAC Card and NOT get in trouble?
Can I burn its internals with a powerful enough antenna/transmitter?
It’s possible, a lot of cheap Qi chargers are pretty badly tuned and can mess up hf stuff
What if u have to get an MRI?
Loved the video. Not gone down the implant route but have a couple of rings which I used to get into the buildings (T5577) in my last employment. Thanks for the inspiration to get the Proxmark 3 Easy out of the cupboard and have a play with some hotel cards.
Can you have multiple creds programmed on the same chip, say if they are for different protocols?
Short answer no,
Long answer is sort of possible but a bit difficult and technical,
If memory serves someone on the dt forum had 2 different credentials of the same protocol stacked on one another, and it worked, I don’t think you can do different at the same time
@eriequiet would have thought one could detect the type and have different storage locations..... analogous to vhost in apache2 ;) but I guess you'd just have a KeePass database on your PC and if you need to switch creds you would restore from that
@@katanasteelyea most of the basic stuff doesn’t really “detect” it just farts out its payload like Dev illustrated… some of the more complex hf stuff has different sectors so different stuff can access different portions… but it’s not really “different” credentials.. more like different pieces
At least that’s what I understand, most of that is over what I tinker with
I'll just wait for the Flipper Zero implant
hah that would rule ;-)
I would rather have these chips be flatter and glued to my nails . The chips do not need sensitive data. Reference at 52:00
Seems odd to me to put it in your hand when it could just as easily be put in your watchband, wedding ring, or sleeve and be just as unobtrusive, stealthy, and convenient.
Can't be taken off or lost but yeah lots of novelty lol
@@FyerBear I personally know people who permanently wear a wedding band. It might as well be part of their body.
If it can be lost, it will be lost or stolen lol
Sensory issues or working in an area where jewelry is forbidden. E.g I have both.
Chips are as small as fingernails now. I do not see the TSA stripping women of their glued finger-nails .
I liked this, and then unliked it, just so I could like it again. Once I can figure out a valid use case for RFID I would really like to get one of these at the bio-hacking village some day.
It would be really fun to get a FeliCa chip in my hand so i can just log into arcade machines by punching them
Hadouken! 🤜🔵
eager to learn, but before even watching I am really hesitant about stuff like this because of the risks
Can't wait to see this, if it has the info I'm looking for it might convince me to finally get one.
Sad I have to wait for the premier though.
Johnny Mnemonic is good just watched it the other night again.
Can these work with transit cards like Seattle's ORCA?
I would have to ask SuperSat Karl about that. I believe the Orca card is a DESfire, but I can check my card when I get back to the office
@@DeviantOllam thank you! This is one of the more convenient use cases I can think of.
@@AugustMcKenna I agree. Although transit systems are generally very hesitant to permit this sort of thing because they think it undermines their credibility or will somehow break billing.
@@DeviantOllam buzz kills
@@DeviantOllam you're correct, the old blue Orca cards are DESFire EV1 4K & the new (lame) black Orca cards are DESFire EV3 2K. the old ones have a whole ton of data (keeping track of the last 10-15 payments/Top-ups on the card, plus the current balance (very handy)), but the new ones just have a 96 byte standard file & 48 byte backup file.
"Let's all have empathy for one another, also elon musk is an evil fascist" checks out
But what happens if I RFID my bank safety deposit box safe, then catch whatever and die, and somebody digs up my body and chops off my hand to rob the bank! LOL.
You do not need the hand. The credential sound can be cloned .
what does it take to use a passive device actively? such as how low range bluetooth devices can be amplified and hacked longrange, nobody likes to talk about this :(
you can't "make" a passive device operate actively. active RFID involves the tag/credential having its own internal power supply (often a battery)
in those cases, the credential tag is more properly called a transponder. there are no bio implants that are transponders, to my knowledge. (I mean maybe someone, somewhere is making an experimental widget in their garage, but nothing exists on the market)
Great talk! Are you trying to get under my skin!? Too late, Amal already did.
That Naomi Wu shout out. I miss her, hope she's doing well.
I wish there was a way to have an implant that was the key to my car.
It’s possible, it’s just a little janky
20:31 this is a Euler diagram #pedant
i appreciate this pedantry very much!
I need dangerous things in my body!
You and me both
Why does it have to be placed in the web of the back of the hand? Why not at least on palm side?
You can place it plenty of other locations, but palm or and gripping zones are specifically not recommended, you don’t want it in a location that will see a lot of movement, and somewhere with some separation from bone and and little flesh padding
make sure you say it is written w silver too
super tempted, put a second lock on my door etc
This was such a great talk! It was my first bsides and definitely not going to be the last
So glad you enjoyed the talk. It's always fun for me when people get to check out some of my longer form content like this
Boy oh boy I’m in
I've been doing NFC,RFID dermal tagging for 15 years. I have several myself and will be doing more until my left arm glows like a God..or alien. I think an alien would be more socially accessible than God 😂
I remember being young and dumb (and a myriad of other things not worth mentioning), and wanting to get a NExT chip around the time they first came out.
It seems that this video has lit the fire in under me once again but I’m still glad I waited, the xMagic seems very promising! ^^