A roll of Teflon tape to make your water piping leak tight cost you less than a hand full of change. The same material in the same quantity used in a capacitor with the intended use being Audio, justifies a price premium of $60,- or more. And rather than being outraged by it, most audiophiles get exited by that idea. Oh, add 5 cents of oil to that and the price easily doubles again, resulting in yet more excitement.
If he wants to keep the original sound then he should get some audio grade electrolytic replacements. Not sure if I would waste money on film caps for old AR speakers
@@bikdav that's the thing. If you are going to go to all that work, and only care about yourself and them lasting another say 20 years, then yeah, go for the same value electrolytic caps. But if you are planning on handing down the speakers to a relative when you are 6 feet in the ground, and want them to last another lifetime, then maybe biting the bullet for some good film caps might be in order. It just depends on your ideas and expectations of the whole thing.
Paul is right. The Solan will be better, but they have a hard sound, also upgrade the resistors, it makes an audible difference with smoothness and detail.
Thank you for posting this. I forget the saying, something about the more choices given to a human, the more paralyzed they get in the decision making process. That is where I was at, similar to the person that sent you the question.
@@joeythedime1838I searched for the name for it:: Choice overload, also known as overchoice, choice paralysis, or the paradox of choice, describes how people get overwhelmed when they are presented with a large number of options to choose from.
Capacitor choice is like spice for your dish ... It will give it a specific flavor. So Paul is totally correct here . Same uF and Voltage but different construction cap will sound totally different... Often you can use Poly cap like Dayton and add nice bypass of 0.1uf Copper foil Miflex and for a cheap combo sounding sooo much better than original Electrolitics or El cheapo poly found in stock crossover
You can taste the difference between most types of fish but people can't tell the difference between film caps cheap or expensive. If they test the same they must perform the same there is no magic in electronics just placebo effects
@@mikepxg6406 Absolutely incorrect! Cap type used in tweeter or midrange will greatly affect it's tonal balance , transient response, clarity, overall resolution as this cap acts as filter and stores energy and releases it back in filtered form to the speaker. It is sad to see some folks with engineering background not understanding it speak like experts in the matter .
@@mikepxg6406 I built a pair of speakers using the RD -57, push pull, planar magnetic, operated as a dipole, and 2 Morel 164s/channel, each in their own 12 ft long schedule 40 pvc waveguides. Built my version of the Old Colony/Audio Amateur, Class A, MOSFET output stage, "Lang Amp", to power the system. The initial crossover was 10, 10uf IAR Wonder caps and a 100uf Solen, metallized polypropylene caps and a CFAC inductor for a single pole filter network. About 7 years later, Parts Connection was having a sale on the MIT, aka Reliable Capacitors. So to replace the Solens, I purchased 3, 20uf Polypropylene film caps, a 30uf Polypropylene film cap, and 3, 3uf Polystyrene caps/channel. I left one channel's xover alone and did the replacement on the other. I Listened in mono, summing the channels, to observe if there was a difference, to satisfy my curiosity. The higher quality caps allowed far more information, as in spatial, and more mid/high frequency energy to pass through, with greater clarity. Switched back and forth between the two filters for over an hour. The difference was readily apparent. Obviously, I couldn't perform double blind testing, but it did satisfy me that the difference was quite observable.
Paul, it was awesome to finally meet you and your team at Axpona!! I would love to continue our discussion on ways we can work together to further our charity efforts to youth musical programs across North America. We are gaining some good traction and think that PS Audio could really help in our mission. Cheers. 😉👍🏼❤️
If I remember correctly those AR speakers had standard electrolytic capacitors. Considering the age of those original electrolytic capacitors, even the cheapest film caps of some kind will be a great upgrade.
I think Teflon has turned out to be one of the greatest inventions of the 20th century. Your car loves Teflon: as an additive to boost oil's lubrication and film properties, infused with rubber making the part self-lubricating. Have a chance to buy a part with Teflon for your car it will be a very good part. Not so much for pots and pans. But here is another example of Teflon's versatility being a very good dielectric inside a capacitor that results in better stereo fidelity and less distortion. Cool stuff.
How do you know your AR's are sounding bad and need a cap replacement? Do you have another set of new vintage AR speakers to compare to? Or are you just remembering from back in the day that they sounded better? Besides leaking or budging caps is it just age? And if so, how do you know if your speakers are now just a worn in comfy chair as opposed to being broken? I have 2 sets of the same speaker (RS IIIa's). Passive bi-amping the speakers I broke a lead off a cap right at the base. So I replaced the one cap in 2 of the speakers (so they would match). They sound different than the other set now. Not bad or anything but they dont sound any better than the other set either. Be careful about what you wish for, you just may get it and not like it.
Old electrolytic capacitors drift in value over time as they dry out and can even be dangerous to your tweeters if the value becomes out of spec too much. They can send too much power to them and you end up with fried ones that are irreplaceable. One site noted that, "Do you need these capacitors? Twenty years ago, when we began servicing these speakers, there didn't appear to be any need. However, perhaps ten years ago, we began to find capacitors manufactured by Callins Inc. installed in other AR speakers that were way out of spec. That created concern for the AR 9 and AR 90 speakers and we began finding them in these also. In recent years, customers have been requesting this kit for their speakers, particularly needing them for the tweeter section. However, even though some larger Callins capacitors may be found in the woofer crossover section, the impact does not appear to be as great. Now, if you have a late production pair of these speakers and find your capacitors to be manufactured by Sprague Electric, there is no need to replace them. We have never found a Sprague Electric capacitor to be out of spec."
I'm not convinced just by sticking poly caps as a replacement necessary the right thing to do?? electrolytic will produce its own type of sound I would mix and match and where the capacitor is in the chain in line or parallel stick to electrolytics in parallel. Use clarity audio for mid-range above 200Hz and tweeter Another benefit might be to isolate the inductors they can interact with each other and other components more than likely, so stick some paper masking tape around the inductors and some copper tape over that, make sure you leave a gap on the copper foil tape so it's not touching, and solder a wire from the copper tape to the negative of the crossover. Of course this might be not beneficial if they've designed it in the crossover design by listening to the speaker they might have compensated for this error, but no harm giving it a go more than likely will help. Changing wire resistors might be beneficial as well to something like SMD through hole 50 watt don't go lower than 50 what they can get hot but that's extreme volume. 50 watts fine you don't need a heat sink.
😅Still Solen Siliver Cap are the best. Very Watery Liquidity😊 Don't choose the Solen Black one. It Sound Rough bec it Alum inside vs the Silver Solen Cap is Silver Film inside. its sound Pure & Liquidity😊
I thought Mylar was just a brand name for a line of polymer sheet goods of whatever composition is chosen. What we want to know is what thickness of dialectic is used for a given voltage rating on each type of polymer and how does it affect signal transfer characteristics to use a higher voltage rated component vs one that just meets with reliability goals?
Mylar is actually a trademark for polyester film products. specifically BoPET (biaxially oriented polyethylene terephthalate), so I think the composition is known.
Unfortunately capacitors are mandatory for tweeters. Obviously in a passive crossover but also in bi/tri ampped systems. My main LCR speakers are triamped. The tweeters are fed with a true* 20w class A amp. Initially the tweeters were direct wired to the amp. But now there is a 30uf film capacitor in series with each tweeter which gives me a 600hz high pass filter. Why? Well the tweeters are crossed over at 2.5khz. But in sweeping the room once i somehow bypassed the DSP based crossover sending full bandwidth pink noise to the three tweeters at $300 each. The capacitor is a safety feature and what ever sonic damage it does (very little at 600hz) I will just have to live with. *Single ended output stage with a current sink. Not simply over biased class B.
I would personally just replace the Electrolytic with a good branded equivalent and maybe put polypropylene caps on the tweeter section of the crossover. These are vintage speakers and as soon as you start putting in film caps, you start to change their sound signature.
It must be great living in the States where you can buy literally anything you want .... in Australia you only get what you're given and that's never the best .... sad really 😢
You're free to order from abroad. You can even become an importer for products... and then you'll discover that Australia's small population is why you have fewer options.
I know Jupiter does paper caps, Which from experience of working on older radios and TVs, many caps with a paper dielectric layer don't tend to age very well and often go leaky.
@@mikepxg6406 I take exception to that. My AR-9 hold their own against any new speakers on the market $6000 or less. But yeah, of course there are "better" speakers out there, here 43 years later. There OUGHT to be considering technological advances in materials, manufacturing, and computer simulations available that were only dreamed of in 1980.
For help (or more confusion?) on hifi capacitors, search keywords "humble homemade hifi capacitor test". I centered my build around the Mundorf Supreme EVO Oil Capacitor family. Not quite into the outrageous prices. Also take note of Bypass Capacitors (an add-on 'type' not a 'brand'). These are amazing.
Those EVO Oil are great value , used them too , but the Supreme Silver OIl is my favourite , more expensive I know . Humble home made Hifi is also my reference when it comes to audio caps
Speaker Crossovers are a network of Capacitors(Caps), Inductors & sometimes Resistors. Caps are the one component that deteriorates over time losing its ability to couple signals or filter frequencies. Their values/performance can change which affects the crossover frequencies & frequency response. The same goes for caps in electronic circuits.
To add to what Jim Settlecase said, the old electrolytic capacitors would change in electrical value over time as they dried out. If they drifted too far from their original values, they could endanger your tweeters by allowing too much power to get to them. New film-based capacitors should never "dry out" and change value. Once you replace the old crappy ones, you should be set for life.
I use them extensively in my system. Nothing like it as a filter cap particularly for noisy digital circuits. I also have some of the blue speaker caps. Similar in performance to a good foil cap at a fraction the price and size.
They were fitted as standard in some of the BX range of Rotel Amps and CD players from the 90's My old limited edition Rotel RCD965BX has them everywhere. It still sounds superb. It would cost an arm and a leg to produce it today.
when this dude started having to reason himself through which part of the capacitor insulates and which part conducts, i realized what a waste of time this video is. sorry, but how am i supposed to trust you actually know what youre talking about after that?
😅Still Solen Siliver Cap are the best. Very Watery Liquidity😊 Don't choose the Black one. It Sound Rough bec it Alum inside vs the Silver Solen Cap is Silver Film inside. its sound Pure & Liquidity😊
A roll of Teflon tape to make your water piping leak tight cost you less than a hand full of change. The same material in the same quantity used in a capacitor with the intended use being Audio, justifies a price premium of $60,- or more. And rather than being outraged by it, most audiophiles get exited by that idea. Oh, add 5 cents of oil to that and the price easily doubles again, resulting in yet more excitement.
Find a source that is cheaper, but where? I'll wait. I've looked at Digikey and others. No one is what you'd consider "cheap".
If he wants to keep the original sound then he should get some audio grade electrolytic replacements. Not sure if I would waste money on film caps for old AR speakers
@mikepxg6406: That’s a great point. Today’s electrolytic capacitors are crazy better then what was around back then.
@@bikdav that's the thing. If you are going to go to all that work, and only care about yourself and them lasting another say 20 years, then yeah, go for the same value electrolytic caps. But if you are planning on handing down the speakers to a relative when you are 6 feet in the ground, and want them to last another lifetime, then maybe biting the bullet for some good film caps might be in order. It just depends on your ideas and expectations of the whole thing.
Paul is right. The Solan will be better, but they have a hard sound, also upgrade the resistors, it makes an audible difference with smoothness and detail.
Thank you for posting this. I forget the saying, something about the more choices given to a human, the more paralyzed they get in the decision making process. That is where I was at, similar to the person that sent you the question.
Yes, I can attest to this - my wife becomes paralyzed if there are more then five items on the restaurants menu.
@@joeythedime1838I searched for the name for it:: Choice overload, also known as overchoice, choice paralysis, or the paradox of choice, describes how people get overwhelmed when they are presented with a large number of options to choose from.
I spend most of my day in a state of mental paralysis. At my age it has turned into a blissful hobby experience.
Capacitor choice is like spice for your dish ... It will give it a specific flavor.
So Paul is totally correct here .
Same uF and Voltage but different construction cap will sound totally different...
Often you can use Poly cap like Dayton and add nice bypass of 0.1uf Copper foil Miflex and for a cheap combo sounding sooo much better than original Electrolitics or El cheapo poly found in stock crossover
You can taste the difference between most types of fish but people can't tell the difference between film caps cheap or expensive. If they test the same they must perform the same there is no magic in electronics just placebo effects
@@mikepxg6406 Absolutely incorrect!
Cap type used in tweeter or midrange will greatly affect it's tonal balance , transient response, clarity, overall resolution as this cap acts as filter and stores energy and releases it back in filtered form to the speaker.
It is sad to see some folks with engineering background not understanding it speak like experts in the matter .
No that's just nonsense
@@mikepxg6406 I built a pair of speakers using the RD -57, push pull, planar magnetic, operated as a dipole, and 2 Morel 164s/channel, each in their own 12 ft long schedule 40 pvc waveguides. Built my version of the Old Colony/Audio Amateur, Class A, MOSFET output stage, "Lang Amp", to power the system. The initial crossover was 10, 10uf IAR Wonder caps and a 100uf Solen, metallized polypropylene caps and a CFAC inductor for a single pole filter network. About 7 years later, Parts Connection was having a sale on the MIT, aka Reliable Capacitors. So to replace the Solens, I purchased 3, 20uf Polypropylene film caps, a 30uf Polypropylene film cap, and 3, 3uf Polystyrene caps/channel. I left one channel's xover alone and did the replacement on the other. I Listened in mono, summing the channels, to observe if there was a difference, to satisfy my curiosity. The higher quality caps allowed far more information, as in spatial, and more mid/high frequency energy to pass through, with greater clarity. Switched back and forth between the two filters for over an hour. The difference was readily apparent. Obviously, I couldn't perform double blind testing, but it did satisfy me that the difference was quite observable.
@@hoobsgroove Thats why people with your opinion should build kitchen appliances not quality audio .
Paul, it was awesome to finally meet you and your team at Axpona!! I would love to continue our discussion on ways we can work together to further our charity efforts to youth musical programs across North America. We are gaining some good traction and think that PS Audio could really help in our mission. Cheers. 😉👍🏼❤️
Paul, thanks for your video. I think we would be interested also in knowing about the sound difference between different capacitors
If I remember correctly those AR speakers had standard electrolytic capacitors. Considering the age of those original electrolytic capacitors, even the cheapest film caps of some kind will be a great upgrade.
most had non polarised electrolytics in parallel to get correct value and keep cost down.
@@mikepxg6406 Yes. I remember that now. Thank you.
I think Teflon has turned out to be one of the greatest inventions of the 20th century. Your car loves Teflon: as an additive to boost oil's lubrication and film properties, infused with rubber making the part self-lubricating. Have a chance to buy a part with Teflon for your car it will be a very good part. Not so much for pots and pans. But here is another example of Teflon's versatility being a very good dielectric inside a capacitor that results in better stereo fidelity and less distortion. Cool stuff.
Please revisit this in more detail woth some examples. Thanks!
Excellent!❤
How do you know your AR's are sounding bad and need a cap replacement? Do you have another set of new vintage AR speakers to compare to? Or are you just remembering from back in the day that they sounded better? Besides leaking or budging caps is it just age? And if so, how do you know if your speakers are now just a worn in comfy chair as opposed to being broken? I have 2 sets of the same speaker (RS IIIa's). Passive bi-amping the speakers I broke a lead off a cap right at the base. So I replaced the one cap in 2 of the speakers (so they would match). They sound different than the other set now. Not bad or anything but they dont sound any better than the other set either. Be careful about what you wish for, you just may get it and not like it.
Old electrolytic capacitors drift in value over time as they dry out and can even be dangerous to your tweeters if the value becomes out of spec too much. They can send too much power to them and you end up with fried ones that are irreplaceable. One site noted that, "Do you need these capacitors? Twenty years ago, when we began servicing these speakers, there didn't appear to be any need. However, perhaps ten years ago, we began to find capacitors manufactured by Callins Inc. installed in other AR speakers that were way out of spec. That created concern for the AR 9 and AR 90 speakers and we began finding them in these also. In recent years, customers have been requesting this kit for their speakers, particularly needing them for the tweeter section.
However, even though some larger Callins capacitors may be found in the woofer crossover section, the impact does not appear to be as great. Now, if you have a late production pair of these speakers and find your capacitors to be manufactured by Sprague Electric, there is no need to replace them. We have never found a Sprague Electric capacitor to be out of spec."
I'm not convinced just by sticking poly caps as a replacement necessary the right thing to do?? electrolytic will produce its own type of sound I would mix and match and where the capacitor is in the chain in line or parallel stick to electrolytics in parallel. Use clarity audio for mid-range above 200Hz and tweeter
Another benefit might be to isolate the inductors they can interact with each other and other components more than likely, so stick some paper masking tape around the inductors and some copper tape over that, make sure you leave a gap on the copper foil tape so it's not touching, and solder a wire from the copper tape to the negative of the crossover. Of course this might be not beneficial if they've designed it in the crossover design by listening to the speaker they might have compensated for this error, but no harm giving it a go more than likely will help. Changing wire resistors might be beneficial as well to something like SMD through hole 50 watt don't go lower than 50 what they can get hot but that's extreme volume. 50 watts fine you don't need a heat sink.
😅Still Solen Siliver Cap are the best. Very Watery Liquidity😊 Don't choose the Solen Black one. It Sound Rough bec it Alum inside vs the Silver Solen Cap is Silver Film inside. its sound Pure & Liquidity😊
I thought Mylar was just a brand name for a line of polymer sheet goods of whatever composition is chosen.
What we want to know is what thickness of dialectic is used for a given voltage rating on each type of polymer and how does it affect signal transfer characteristics to use a higher voltage rated component vs one that just meets with reliability goals?
Mylar is actually a trademark for polyester film products. specifically BoPET (biaxially oriented polyethylene terephthalate), so I think the composition is known.
@@michaelturner4457 Thanks.
Sounds like exactly what VH Audio
"V Caps" are. Cost is mind blowing.
If cost is not an issue, Reliable Capacitors, Polystyrene and Teflon, lines are superb.
Exactly its pointless trying to polish a turd.
Unfortunately capacitors are mandatory for tweeters. Obviously in a passive crossover but also in bi/tri ampped systems. My main LCR speakers are triamped. The tweeters are fed with a true* 20w class A amp. Initially the tweeters were direct wired to the amp. But now there is a 30uf film capacitor in series with each tweeter which gives me a 600hz high pass filter. Why? Well the tweeters are crossed over at 2.5khz. But in sweeping the room once i somehow bypassed the DSP based crossover sending full bandwidth pink noise to the three tweeters at $300 each. The capacitor is a safety feature and what ever sonic damage it does (very little at 600hz) I will just have to live with.
*Single ended output stage with a current sink. Not simply over biased class B.
I would personally just replace the Electrolytic with a good branded equivalent and maybe put polypropylene caps on the tweeter section of the crossover. These are vintage speakers and as soon as you start putting in film caps, you start to change their sound signature.
Personally I’d bin the whole crossover, bi-amp it and use an active crossover. Passive crossovers are horrible things.
thanks
It must be great living in the States where you can buy literally anything you want .... in Australia you only get what you're given and that's never the best .... sad really 😢
Try living in South Africa....
Try living in Laos...
@@michaelturner4457 hahahaha ... ok 😆
Have they not invented international postage in Australia yet.
You're free to order from abroad. You can even become an importer for products... and then you'll discover that Australia's small population is why you have fewer options.
I think you told him what he needed. Jupiter II’s baby!
I know Jupiter does paper caps, Which from experience of working on older radios and TVs, many caps with a paper dielectric layer don't tend to age very well and often go leaky.
Waste of money in old AR speakers. You can't make a silk purse out of a cows ear.
@@mikepxg6406 I take exception to that. My AR-9 hold their own against any new speakers on the market $6000 or less. But yeah, of course there are "better" speakers out there, here 43 years later. There OUGHT to be considering technological advances in materials, manufacturing, and computer simulations available that were only dreamed of in 1980.
Film capacitors..???
I am distraught in choosing between a Big Mac or a Quarter Pounder from McDonald’s. Life is hard.
Where I am, can't even find a McDonald's, never mind the luxury of exotic film cap availability.
@@michaelturner4457
Greece…?? 🤔
Maybe Cypress.🤔
I cannot understand a word you are saying. 🤔🙄
Neither look after your body don't eat American junk food.
You think that is hard, go to an ice cream store with 31 flavors....
I thumbed this one up 🎉
For help (or more confusion?) on hifi capacitors, search keywords "humble homemade hifi capacitor test".
I centered my build around the Mundorf Supreme EVO Oil Capacitor family. Not quite into the outrageous prices.
Also take note of Bypass Capacitors (an add-on 'type' not a 'brand'). These are amazing.
Those EVO Oil are great value , used them too , but the Supreme Silver OIl is my favourite , more expensive I know . Humble home made Hifi is also my reference when it comes to audio caps
I don’t know what you are talking about, what are caps?
Speaker Crossovers are a network of Capacitors(Caps), Inductors & sometimes Resistors. Caps are the one component that deteriorates over time losing its ability to couple signals or filter frequencies. Their values/performance can change which affects the crossover frequencies & frequency response. The same goes for caps in electronic circuits.
To add to what Jim Settlecase said, the old electrolytic capacitors would change in electrical value over time as they dried out. If they drifted too far from their original values, they could endanger your tweeters by allowing too much power to get to them. New film-based capacitors should never "dry out" and change value. Once you replace the old crappy ones, you should be set for life.
@@clickbeetle2720 see there you go again clickbeetle!
Do you remember the phantastic Black Gate capacitors?
I use them extensively in my system. Nothing like it as a filter cap particularly for noisy digital circuits. I also have some of the blue speaker caps. Similar in performance to a good foil cap at a fraction the price and size.
They were fitted as standard in some of the BX range of Rotel Amps and CD players from the 90's My old limited edition Rotel RCD965BX has them everywhere. It still sounds superb. It would cost an arm and a leg to produce it today.
@@mikepxg6406 I'm not very up-to-date with new capacitor products, those which I tried were not competitive. So I buyed a bunch of it.
Many years ago polypropylene was the best. I guess that's all changed now.
Still top notch. Teflon only makes sense as a coupling cap in key spots like an interstage cap in a tube amp. Not worth it for a speaker crossover.
Most people pretend they can hear a difference...
@@mikepxg6406 You are so right about that.
Think it is still a very good material. At least it won't change value over time like the old electrolytics could.
What are the world's largest capacitors? Clouds.
Avoid Baltimore Maryland at all costs.
Firstest!
when this dude started having to reason himself through which part of the capacitor insulates and which part conducts, i realized what a waste of time this video is. sorry, but how am i supposed to trust you actually know what youre talking about after that?
First
to get back to the sound of new AR14s I would go w/ Solens - reserving money-to-burn for the New Speakers Fund.
Great advice. Also Obbligato gold for the tweeters makes a little bump up for not much money.
😅Still Solen Siliver Cap are the best. Very Watery Liquidity😊 Don't choose the Black one. It Sound Rough bec it Alum inside vs the Silver Solen Cap is Silver Film inside. its sound Pure & Liquidity😊