What would YOU do with 8♠ 8♥ on the flop? Your Stack (UTG+2): 42,500 Their Stack (BB): 42,500 Pot: 25,200 Board: 7♣ 7♦ 6♠ BB bets 7,000 A) Fold B) Call C) Raise to 14,000 D) Raise to 42,500 (all-in)
A raise would basically pot commit you and on that board he would fire with just about everything - if you are going to play 88 here at all you might as well jam, put pressure on 99-JJ and get it in good (or win now) against naked overcards. If you flat you will be committed on a turn barrel no matter what comes up.
I really love the discussion before the hand, it sets the scene and helps with understanding why Faraz is is selecting the play that he does, I don't just want to see the chips moving around, I want to understand where the play is coming from, why Faraz is thinking the things he is thinking. I realised some time ago, you don't really learn poker until you learn how to learn poker and this is a wonderful way of conveying the thought process for making specific plays in certain circumstances
Great discussion. One WSOP I had an hour before my event. I walked around the room looking for a player I'd like to watch and saw Faraz in a day one of a $1000 event. I watched for an hour. It was very educational!
against any reasonable opponent (and especially against more agressive ones) we simply cant fold an overpair on the flop against a small bet. Its mostly call but some low frequency small raises also make sense
@@aceten1682 ne never advocated on folding on the flop. Folding JJ oop on the turn is too tight. He didn't say it's correct, just that he doesn't hate it, which is reasonable
Preflop in poker is like equivalent of putting in golf. Putting is not as flashy as having a big drive but it is by far the best, most efficient, and easiest place to focus your time and energy on improvement to shave strokes off your score. Drive for show, putt for dough!
Thats why the world series of poker is the world series of poker. No one in the history of online poker has folded JJ on that board to an 8k bet with 40k in your stack. Ppl tend to overthink & over analyze everything when playing the WSOP.
This is a classic spot where you're really playing the players. Much more so than the cards. That's a critical element of the game and a tough part of the game.
It's interesting how Faraz approaches the turn. I was of the mindset that 88s are probably ahead here so why let my opponent (who likely has overcards) peel off a free card. Faraz seems to think he's behind a great variety of the time but with an OESD doesn't want to miss the equity on the river so why bet when you can get blown off your hand. Not sure who's right but his bet did seem like the right play. Especially if he got villain to fold JJs. Had an interesting spot this reminds me of. I was super tilting from running bad and woke up with AAs against someone who was CLEARLY a super nit. She flatted my preflop raise and the board was small cards something like 7 4 2 rainbow. I bet and she RAISED me! I was like "no way, no way my Aces are cracked yet again." even though I should have known I was behind. Out of sheer frustration and not knowing what to really do I decided to gamble with a min raise. She thought FOREVER and finally folded. I was curious and showed her my Aces "could you beat this?". She was visibly upset, had pocket 4s. She said she "was sure" I had pocket 77s. Whew! Sometimes it pays to just bet.
There are only two options: call or raise small. Our hand has far too much equity to fold and if we jam our opponent can respond perfectly. I prefer a call, partly because it is so clear which turns we can fold on (any A, K, or Q).
I would imagine BB cold 4bet range should be absurdly tight versus two early position players raising and 3betting. Like should even QQ really be 4bet-stacking off?
What does he beat on the turn? Against the small flop sizing cant faraz still have AQdd or AJdd (or even AKdd) . Sure the 9 is not a brick and you now lose to 99 on top of the traps (aa kk)this player must hav been concerned about but you also still beat TT and 88 which might very well be betting turn small.
With JJ on the turn for villain it feels like a fold is very tight. Faraz is saying what does villain beat, which is a very fair point, but villain is also playing against Faraz Jaka who has 3-bet +1 vs UTG, called a BB 4 bet, and now bet this turn with 88. Against a strong opponent who will mix it up, I think laying down JJ on the turn is just a little too tight. Yeah it's a tough spot if faraz jams river, but Faraz will have "bluffs" like this and will need to check back with some give up hands on the river, plus we have two outs to the super nuts. It's brutal to be in such a marginal spot with JJ for your tournament life, but if you're gonna 4-bet JJ against Faraz you gotta be ready to go broke sometimes
I agree. with JJs I'd be nervous here but would probably jam. Villain flatted a 4 bet from early position straights are less likely (though still possible). There are about 2x more combos of AK,AQ then AA, KK, QQs and the villains bet is a little weak in size. But in no universe am I folding jacks to such a small bet on the turn. The only exception is if I'm up against a nit then it's a snap fold.
Hey Jonathan bossman brother I’ve got a quick question here for you. So let’s say you’re playing a game right now and you have an ace three suited and you Bluff raise the guy out of the pot because you’re betting big pre-flop and he knows that you have to have it,because you’re in early position or whatever. My question is should you show the bluff? Should you show that you have to have ace 3 suited since it isn’t the only reason why you raise in early position? So that next time when you raise, you “can” have aces. Which means you could comfortably raise in early position and you know that the guy that you’re playing knows that you know that you could have aces at that exact moment?
You have some good cards that can come here so I don't think I'd fold yet. A small raise is subject to a reraise and then you'd have to fold. All in? Maybe, but I think it's risky with midpair and a back door staight draw. A call to float along here is my approach.
Seems to be like a very easy call. Problem is that there are no really good turn cards. Overcards are scary and under cards we also can up against overpairs. It really feels like gambling in these kinds of spots. Thats why I always fold against a 4bet when i do have a peak pocket card. Just pray the opponent checks turn and check or blufs river (because with decent turn and river cards we are going to call).
OK i would have called flop always but found it interesting to min raise too when I thought about it. You can get away overcards that have much equ against our hand and if villain calls we charge money from him. Also villain can make many mistakes vs a small raise and we freeze the action. We can check back many turn if we want and buy a river. Maybe I am wrong. I am a plo player Edit: OK did not realize how small stacksizes are. Wouldn't it be still a good idea or at least at higher sprs?
I would min raise. He leads out for such a small amount on a dry board it doesn't exactly scream AA's or KKs and do you want a broadway card peeling off?
I just call here. Opponent should be doing this with almost all of their range and we are ahead of a decent amount of their range. Its a small enough bet where if a big card comes on the turn we can get away.
Last time I was in this same situation with 8s, and they C Bet on a 10 7 6 flop. I shoved and they snap called with AQ 🤔 so of course 2 queens come out…poker is stupid
I'm set mining or waiting for an A or K... right now I just call. If I get an 8, I'll get his stack. If I get an A or K then I can blast him off his better pair.
Jamming flop, if we just call, the pot will be 39K, and we will have 35K behind. There are a lot of cards we don't want to see on the turn, if opponent had larger over pair (JJs-KKs), I would think they would check to go for check-raise, or bet large on flop to end the hand immediately, afraid an Ace would come.
Ok woo! So I thought this would be a fold pre-flop because you have to put in 7k and opponent only has 42 k behind and the idea was to set mine. But I see Farah’ reasoning was his aggression was going to get his opponent to 4-bet light so you might be good here a decent amount of the time. So this flop shouldn’t really be great for either hero or villain, but because Farah said his range will have some middle pairs, we might actually have nut advantage with quads, but that will be very rare and I don’t think Faraz said he has 66 here. I definitely don’t think Faraz would be calling 76s here if he 3-bet that. So with this paucity of nuts I don’t think we should have a raising range at all in a 4-bet pot. That said a min raise might be very nice to (a) potentially fold out AQ (b) stop him leading futures streets. Hmmm. It’s between call and min-raise…. I think I just call.
at 5:35 i hope shoving is right..i dont think just calling works, as any over card he can rep with a shove, and could have a 9-10 suited hand, J10suited, etc, but A K Q hits the turn, and you cant really call it.. so a shove now, AK, AQ, AJ, are all folding, even 9's, 10's, might fold, and you can hope an A6Suited or 55s calls, not believing or putting me on AK/AQ..
Faraz "I don't hate his fold I mean what does he beat?". Well, 44s, 55s, 45, 68, any six, any 9, 88s, 10s, Over cards, straight draws, flush draws, A high hands, lol. Cmon Faraz would YOU have folded with Jacks here?
Its a good exploit but i am not sure if the „idea“ of the turn bet is good. If this hand gets to the turn which probably happens not a lot (fold flop would be nitty but considerable imo (u have equity but ur never good and any overcard is hard to continue - you have to realize equity, what if this guy shoves? You have 1 SPR behind so if the guy is a scared nit you won‘t get him to fold hands like QQ+. Once in a while he had the balls to 4b JJ into an MP 3b but usually this kind of player only does it with better than JJ… and oh yeah u might have a boat or KK/QQ - but ur full of shit like in this hand. A turned or a flopped house would rather trap and hope the opponent raises!? Just my thoughts on the hand - Jaka is far a better player than me, i am just saying it might be a bad example because „it worked“ but i mean if the guy had jacks And folded, strategy does not matter a lot so my conclusion is that this specific hand is too „good“ to not realize equity against this player.
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What would YOU do with 8♠ 8♥ on the flop?
Your Stack (UTG+2): 42,500
Their Stack (BB): 42,500
Pot: 25,200
Board: 7♣ 7♦ 6♠
BB bets 7,000
A) Fold
B) Call
C) Raise to 14,000
D) Raise to 42,500 (all-in)
B - call. See what the turn brings
I might be ahead and I can put pressure on even an overpair by raising.
I choose B
A raise would basically pot commit you and on that board he would fire with just about everything - if you are going to play 88 here at all you might as well jam, put pressure on 99-JJ and get it in good (or win now) against naked overcards. If you flat you will be committed on a turn barrel no matter what comes up.
Definitely can’t fold with an overpair to the board, but raising sounds suicidal. I’m calling. B
D all in
This kind of duo commentary is a must watch.
Yup
I really love the discussion before the hand, it sets the scene and helps with understanding why Faraz is is selecting the play that he does, I don't just want to see the chips moving around, I want to understand where the play is coming from, why Faraz is thinking the things he is thinking.
I realised some time ago, you don't really learn poker until you learn how to learn poker and this is a wonderful way of conveying the thought process for making specific plays in certain circumstances
Def agree.
Great discussion. One WSOP I had an hour before my event. I walked around the room looking for a player I'd like to watch and saw Faraz in a day one of a $1000 event. I watched for an hour. It was very educational!
I love how in-depth poker is that so much thought goes into the first decision to 3-bet 88. Good content!
The back and forth discussion here was great
against any reasonable opponent (and especially against more agressive ones) we simply cant fold an overpair on the flop against a small bet. Its mostly call but some low frequency small raises also make sense
@@aceten1682 ne never advocated on folding on the flop. Folding JJ oop on the turn is too tight. He didn't say it's correct, just that he doesn't hate it, which is reasonable
When you said “what does their 4 bet range look like” that really hit home. Thankyou.
Such a great video, hope to see more conversational breakdowns like this with Faraz!
More to come!
Great video, super entertaining and very informative, I like how you guys really are thinking through the hand in real time!
Fantastic team. Thanks for the great content.
Preflop in poker is like equivalent of putting in golf. Putting is not as flashy as having a big drive but it is by far the best, most efficient, and easiest place to focus your time and energy on improvement to shave strokes off your score. Drive for show, putt for dough!
Thats why the world series of poker is the world series of poker. No one in the history of online poker has folded JJ on that board to an 8k bet with 40k in your stack. Ppl tend to overthink & over analyze everything when playing the WSOP.
If it's Faraz Jaka, I am never folding.
Just love these videos. Great information.
Thanks, glad you like it!
folding an overpair to a 20% pot bet OTT is criminal! you only have to realize 17% equity!
Great Video
Excellent explanation of the thought process.
Johnathan, what is the best GTO Solver you suggest in the market? I was thinking bout getting Pio Solver edge. Is it worth it?
I am not sure, sorry!
This is a classic spot where you're really playing the players. Much more so than the cards. That's a critical element of the game and a tough part of the game.
And only explained after the cards are shown......(then they know...so they know...)" Sharp Fishy" DONKS
Raise to $22,575
Indeed!
Learned a lot on that....sheeesh...."what if , what If ??
Early you said "he bet$8000...now they check...Farazz needs to educate us not repeat the same thing over and, rinse &repeat
It's interesting how Faraz approaches the turn. I was of the mindset that 88s are probably ahead here so why let my opponent (who likely has overcards) peel off a free card. Faraz seems to think he's behind a great variety of the time but with an OESD doesn't want to miss the equity on the river so why bet when you can get blown off your hand. Not sure who's right but his bet did seem like the right play. Especially if he got villain to fold JJs.
Had an interesting spot this reminds me of. I was super tilting from running bad and woke up with AAs against someone who was CLEARLY a super nit. She flatted my preflop raise and the board was small cards something like 7 4 2 rainbow. I bet and she RAISED me! I was like "no way, no way my Aces are cracked yet again." even though I should have known I was behind. Out of sheer frustration and not knowing what to really do I decided to gamble with a min raise. She thought FOREVER and finally folded.
I was curious and showed her my Aces "could you beat this?". She was visibly upset, had pocket 4s. She said she "was sure" I had pocket 77s. Whew! Sometimes it pays to just bet.
There are only two options: call or raise small. Our hand has far too much equity to fold and if we jam our opponent can respond perfectly.
I prefer a call, partly because it is so clear which turns we can fold on (any A, K, or Q).
Great content 👍
I would imagine BB cold 4bet range should be absurdly tight versus two early position players raising and 3betting. Like should even QQ really be 4bet-stacking off?
What does he beat on the turn? Against the small flop sizing cant faraz still have AQdd or AJdd (or even AKdd) . Sure the 9 is not a brick and you now lose to 99 on top of the traps (aa kk)this player must hav been concerned about but you also still beat TT and 88 which might very well be betting turn small.
i bought pokercoaching premium last month and i love it, is there a sale coming up where it would be cheaper to buy a yearly membership?
I think so, be sure to check your email!
With JJ on the turn for villain it feels like a fold is very tight. Faraz is saying what does villain beat, which is a very fair point, but villain is also playing against Faraz Jaka who has 3-bet +1 vs UTG, called a BB 4 bet, and now bet this turn with 88. Against a strong opponent who will mix it up, I think laying down JJ on the turn is just a little too tight. Yeah it's a tough spot if faraz jams river, but Faraz will have "bluffs" like this and will need to check back with some give up hands on the river, plus we have two outs to the super nuts. It's brutal to be in such a marginal spot with JJ for your tournament life, but if you're gonna 4-bet JJ against Faraz you gotta be ready to go broke sometimes
I agree. with JJs I'd be nervous here but would probably jam. Villain flatted a 4 bet from early position straights are less likely (though still possible). There are about 2x more combos of AK,AQ then AA, KK, QQs and the villains bet is a little weak in size. But in no universe am I folding jacks to such a small bet on the turn. The only exception is if I'm up against a nit then it's a snap fold.
Small raise. Protect my hand against overs, freeze up some overpairs to get a cheap turn check back.
Feeling Lucky to be the 1st to learn From You
#MrGambler
Hey Jonathan bossman brother I’ve got a quick question here for you. So let’s say you’re playing a game right now and you have an ace three suited and you Bluff raise the guy out of the pot because you’re betting big pre-flop and he knows that you have to have it,because you’re in early position or whatever. My question is should you show the bluff? Should you show that you have to have ace 3 suited since it isn’t the only reason why you raise in early position? So that next time when you raise, you “can” have aces. Which means you could comfortably raise in early position and you know that the guy that you’re playing knows that you know that you could have aces at that exact moment?
It depends on how you expect the opponent to react.
You have some good cards that can come here so I don't think I'd fold yet. A small raise is subject to a reraise and then you'd have to fold. All in? Maybe, but I think it's risky with midpair and a back door staight draw. A call to float along here is my approach.
I'm going to call
GREAT video!
Thanks!
Seems to be like a very easy call. Problem is that there are no really good turn cards. Overcards are scary and under cards we also can up against overpairs. It really feels like gambling in these kinds of spots. Thats why I always fold against a 4bet when i do have a peak pocket card. Just pray the opponent checks turn and check or blufs river (because with decent turn and river cards we are going to call).
This was awsome. Thanks
I wonder how this hand would have played differently if you would have just flatted and then called his three bet?
Even better then a backdoor str8 draw is 4 backdoor str8 draws.
OK i would have called flop always but found it interesting to min raise too when I thought about it. You can get away overcards that have much equ against our hand and if villain calls we charge money from him. Also villain can make many mistakes vs a small raise and we freeze the action. We can check back many turn if we want and buy a river. Maybe I am wrong. I am a plo player
Edit: OK did not realize how small stacksizes are. Wouldn't it be still a good idea or at least at higher sprs?
I would min raise. He leads out for such a small amount on a dry board it doesn't exactly scream AA's or KKs and do you want a broadway card peeling off?
Raise all in because yolo also I feel that raising to 14,000 mite put you in a bad spot later on for the turn and the river.
I just call here. Opponent should be doing this with almost all of their range and we are ahead of a decent amount of their range. Its a small enough bet where if a big card comes on the turn we can get away.
Last time I was in this same situation with 8s, and they C Bet on a 10 7 6 flop. I shoved and they snap called with AQ 🤔 so of course 2 queens come out…poker is stupid
You were in a 4 bet pot with 88 in position and decided to shove over their C-bet and are surprised you lost?
@@kennethorr8484 Yeah I made a perfect read got my money is great and the dealer fucked me as always, Poker is stupid
What a freaking weird and uncomfortable spot for both players
Jam
How do you “run the spot”?
In a GTO solver.
He's probably worried about the jam on the river. You three betted and then flatted a four bet. aces, kings and queens are all in your range.
How does Faraz not run the spot before recording the video 🙄
I'm set mining or waiting for an A or K... right now I just call. If I get an 8, I'll get his stack. If I get an A or K then I can blast him off his better pair.
Jamming flop, if we just call, the pot will be 39K, and we will have 35K behind. There are a lot of cards we don't want to see on the turn, if opponent had larger over pair (JJs-KKs), I would think they would check to go for check-raise, or bet large on flop to end the hand immediately, afraid an Ace would come.
I would show all in
isnt this just a pure fold preflop against the 4 bet?
Ok woo! So I thought this would be a fold pre-flop because you have to put in 7k and opponent only has 42 k behind and the idea was to set mine. But I see Farah’ reasoning was his aggression was going to get his opponent to 4-bet light so you might be good here a decent amount of the time.
So this flop shouldn’t really be great for either hero or villain, but because Farah said his range will have some middle pairs, we might actually have nut advantage with quads, but that will be very rare and I don’t think Faraz said he has 66 here. I definitely don’t think Faraz would be calling 76s here if he 3-bet that. So with this paucity of nuts I don’t think we should have a raising range at all in a 4-bet pot. That said a min raise might be very nice to (a) potentially fold out AQ (b) stop him leading futures streets. Hmmm. It’s between call and min-raise….
I think I just call.
Or go all in
If Faraz thinks he is NIT what gave him the impression he has a worse *4! bluff than AK* that justifies calling with 88 pre-flop?
You're stack depth allows you alot of implied odds when you hit a set.
fun hand!
I'd call the flop bet. We could very well be ahead. A raise might be ok too.
at 5:35 i hope shoving is right..i dont think just calling works, as any over card he can rep with a shove, and could have a 9-10 suited hand, J10suited, etc, but A K Q hits the turn, and you cant really call it.. so a shove now, AK, AQ, AJ, are all folding, even 9's, 10's, might fold, and you can hope an A6Suited or 55s calls, not believing or putting me on AK/AQ..
Call I guess, BB shouldnt ever be doing this
Blast all in
I just ran this myself. The solution is to fold preflop.
Faraz "I don't hate his fold I mean what does he beat?". Well, 44s, 55s, 45, 68, any six, any 9, 88s, 10s, Over cards, straight draws, flush draws, A high hands, lol. Cmon Faraz would YOU have folded with Jacks here?
I would call
he asking me what i would do on the flop? woulda folded pre
Of course Jam Allin
I go on runs where I win 3 sit n go poker tourneys in a row, then lose 3 in a row....
That's still profitable because a 1st is like 3 or 4 buyins.
@@colinmurphy3478 true on triple ups...double ups is what I mostly play.
Call
I'd reraise here to 16-21K
call
I would raise
Why give him a free card???
Its a good exploit but i am not sure if the „idea“ of the turn bet is good. If this hand gets to the turn which probably happens not a lot (fold flop would be nitty but considerable imo (u have equity but ur never good and any overcard is hard to continue - you have to realize equity, what if this guy shoves? You have 1 SPR behind so if the guy is a scared nit you won‘t get him to fold hands like QQ+. Once in a while he had the balls to 4b JJ into an MP 3b but usually this kind of player only does it with better than JJ… and oh yeah u might have a boat or KK/QQ - but ur full of shit like in this hand. A turned or a flopped house would rather trap and hope the opponent raises!? Just my thoughts on the hand - Jaka is far a better player than me, i am just saying it might be a bad example because „it worked“ but i mean if the guy had jacks And folded, strategy does not matter a lot so my conclusion is that this specific hand is too „good“ to not realize equity against this player.
\o/
1st comment
who tf 4 bets with AQ???
Not often.
He's probably worried about the jam on the river. You three betted and then flatted a four bet. aces, kings and queens are all in your range.
Call
Call