What was easy for you? I know people say use the talk test. I did a lactate treshold lab test and they said my zone 2 is in 140-153bpm range. However anything above 140 and I have to take a small breath after a sentence or two. People say it should be so easy you can run for hours, but thats what I feel up to 138bpm and I think that's my recovery limit lol. Just to many saying you should feel the same after the workout as before, or if you're on the phone the other person should not know you're running. Just doesn't make sense to me because at my zone 2 you would know I'm running because I have to take a breath between full sentences.
@@SherryJav I think the lab test tells you the right thing as well as your instinct. easy runs are optimal in the way that the effects are high with minimal fatigue. still you have to give the body a signal so it adapts. makes sense that you should not feel the same before and after an easy run.
I've almost completed the 2nd week of your sub-4 marathon training plan and so far still feeling very good. Instead of running everything at my 'normal' 5:10 to 5:30/km pace, I'm mostly doing 5:50-6:10 pace now. Focusing on the slow, low heart rate pace and recovery.
I liked this, thank you - I’m mainly doing easy miles as I’m running several ultras first half of year. Will incorporate some faster stuff after that as I prepare for October marathon. Such a hard distance to race, I find.
The chart passes the sniff test. I did a bit worse than my 26 mpw would suggest for my first marathon, but I also spent the final 5 weeks of prep injured in PT. My weekly mileage would have been much higher, but I learned a lot and have a better shot at staying healthy for the next one!
Great video Thomas! Lot of info and advice. I'm currently following one of your marathon training plan the 3:30h plan. As I previously did the sub 4h marathon plan. Thank you 😀 those plans really worked out for me.
Nothing new. Marathon is mostly an aerobic event. You need to teach your body to utilize more fat for energy and easy running helps with that. I do 3 easy and one moderate or hard session per week.
Sure, but there are marathoners who run it at a faster pace than my 5k, which is not an aerobic race. So the training ideology is physiologically universal.
If you are a fast marathoner, you are running primarily on carbohydrate. There is loads of research on this. Now I have seen some ultra runners become fat adapted runners, but they are moving a lot slower.
@ that is correct. Blood glucose plays a roll as well, but when people hit the “wall”, it’s because they failed restocking those stores. Fat adaptive running is really cool too though, it’s just not a quick enough source if you are trying to move quickly.
I’ve done long periods of 100k weeks during marathon training, and my best finnish time as of today is 3:16. But I think there is some truth to this for most runners. But me specifically, I need more easy miles than most runners. I think.
@@GTE_ChannelI also did 100-140km weeks for my marathon last year and ran 3:16. But I am 50 and it was my first marathon and it was hilly and I didn't pace well... 🙄
Great video and enjoyed you r level headed approach. The Strava data is off substantially IMO. Lots of runners don't include all their runs on Strava which IMO throws off the averages substantially. 2:30 marathoners only recording random runs makes it look like the average miles is 66 mi for that group. I would bet the average is closer to 85 mi. The video regardless of the minor Stave data flaw was interesting :)
It’s a fair point that not everyone logs every run on Strava … i didn’t see anything in the study about discarding runners who only seemed to log occasional runs. But I’d say the vast majority of runners in marathon training log everything. But…I’m sure there are a few miles missing
Thanks for this video - I love the extrapolated data. I can't help feeling that there are confounding factors though. Like the triathletes who also run marathons or people like me who do all their zone 2 training on the rowing erg/bike/elliptical because their ankles/knees/hips can't take high mileage. I'm a diamond and stepping up to marathon distance from the half this year. Wish me luck ;)
I'm one of those runners aiming at 2h30, and weekly mileage will probably be less. I think it's important to interpret correctly as "what is the average weekly mileage of the average 2:30 marathoner", rather than inversing it to "what is the average weekly mileage the average runner needs to achieve a 2:30 marathon", because as most people will never be able to do a 2:30 marathon regardless of miles run. So towards these lower marathon times there's a strong inevitable population bias.
@@WouterBiesmansI think data around such a time will be very noisy as well. The pool of 2:30 runners is just much smaller than 3:00 or 4:00 runners, so the variance is a lot higher. Good luck on getting that 2:30 though 💪
I have added strengrh training now but not up to my PR. I added hard cykling/spinning sessions 1-2 months prior to the race which I felt benifitted alot. One long run of 25 km at easy pace and the rest between 7 and 15 km.
Thanks for the study breakdown and data.. quick question 6:50, is this data also from that study? Find it hard to believe people out here doing an average of 34miles (55km) to go sub 3? 🤔
@@marathonhandbook I was also very surprised at how low the volume was in that table. My understanding based on following Pfitzinger, Sweat Elite, and some others is that you need at least 50 MPW to go sub-3 barring insane talent/cross training.
This is normal training for 800 to the marathon. Lydiard talked about this, Van Aaken wrote about it. Dr. Tanaka in "slow jogging" ran a 2:38 in his 50's off of slow jogging. The Japanese elite runners jog 8-9 min miles for the majority of their runs which tends to be 3-4 min slower than their marathon pace.
It's very satisfying seeing your easy pace get faster and faster over time, all other paces improve relative to easy pace.
What was easy for you? I know people say use the talk test. I did a lactate treshold lab test and they said my zone 2 is in 140-153bpm range. However anything above 140 and I have to take a small breath after a sentence or two. People say it should be so easy you can run for hours, but thats what I feel up to 138bpm and I think that's my recovery limit lol.
Just to many saying you should feel the same after the workout as before, or if you're on the phone the other person should not know you're running. Just doesn't make sense to me because at my zone 2 you would know I'm running because I have to take a breath between full sentences.
@@SherryJav I think the lab test tells you the right thing as well as your instinct. easy runs are optimal in the way that the effects are high with minimal fatigue. still you have to give the body a signal so it adapts. makes sense that you should not feel the same before and after an easy run.
I've almost completed the 2nd week of your sub-4 marathon training plan and so far still feeling very good. Instead of running everything at my 'normal' 5:10 to 5:30/km pace, I'm mostly doing 5:50-6:10 pace now. Focusing on the slow, low heart rate pace and recovery.
Good stuff!
I found that chart super informative. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
I liked this, thank you - I’m mainly doing easy miles as I’m running several ultras first half of year. Will incorporate some faster stuff after that as I prepare for October marathon.
Such a hard distance to race, I find.
good luck!
The chart passes the sniff test. I did a bit worse than my 26 mpw would suggest for my first marathon, but I also spent the final 5 weeks of prep injured in PT. My weekly mileage would have been much higher, but I learned a lot and have a better shot at staying healthy for the next one!
Wow groundbreaking
Great video Thomas! Lot of info and advice. I'm currently following one of your marathon training plan the 3:30h plan. As I previously did the sub 4h marathon plan. Thank you 😀 those plans really worked out for me.
Thank you, kind sir. Good luck going sub 3:30
Thank you. It's what experienced runners know, but all the influencers try to hide.
It’s definitely less sexy to just go running at an easy pace a lot. 🫣
Nothing new. Marathon is mostly an aerobic event. You need to teach your body to utilize more fat for energy and easy running helps with that. I do 3 easy and one moderate or hard session per week.
Using fat as fuel costs more energy. Using carbs as fuel is far more efficient
Sure, but there are marathoners who run it at a faster pace than my 5k, which is not an aerobic race. So the training ideology is physiologically universal.
If you are a fast marathoner, you are running primarily on carbohydrate. There is loads of research on this. Now I have seen some ultra runners become fat adapted runners, but they are moving a lot slower.
@@Tacoking8891 i understood that we are using our glycogen stores for energy. Carbohydrates are not the only way to replenish this.
@ that is correct. Blood glucose plays a roll as well, but when people hit the “wall”, it’s because they failed restocking those stores. Fat adaptive running is really cool too though, it’s just not a quick enough source if you are trying to move quickly.
I’ve done long periods of 100k weeks during marathon training, and my best finnish time as of today is 3:16. But I think there is some truth to this for most runners. But me specifically, I need more easy miles than most runners. I think.
100k per week is insanely high for a 3;16 marathon in my opinion
@@GTE_ChannelI also did 100-140km weeks for my marathon last year and ran 3:16. But I am 50 and it was my first marathon and it was hilly and I didn't pace well... 🙄
@@GTE_Channel Specificity/ Everyone is unique. Some people just need more milage as compare to others.
I totally agreed with this.
🫡
Does the pyramidal training create good runners, or do the good runners choose pyramidal?
Great video and enjoyed you r level headed approach. The Strava data is off substantially IMO. Lots of runners don't include all their runs on Strava which IMO throws off the averages substantially. 2:30 marathoners only recording random runs makes it look like the average miles is 66 mi for that group. I would bet the average is closer to 85 mi.
The video regardless of the minor Stave data flaw was interesting :)
It’s a fair point that not everyone logs every run on Strava … i didn’t see anything in the study about discarding runners who only seemed to log occasional runs. But I’d say the vast majority of runners in marathon training log everything. But…I’m sure there are a few miles missing
Thanks for this video - I love the extrapolated data. I can't help feeling that there are confounding factors though. Like the triathletes who also run marathons or people like me who do all their zone 2 training on the rowing erg/bike/elliptical because their ankles/knees/hips can't take high mileage. I'm a diamond and stepping up to marathon distance from the half this year. Wish me luck ;)
Great point! I also do Z2 on a bike sometimes (while reading a book).
68 overall miles per week for 2 30 seems pretty low
Agreed. That was my observation on all those numbers to be honest - but, the data don’t lie
I'm one of those runners aiming at 2h30, and weekly mileage will probably be less. I think it's important to interpret correctly as "what is the average weekly mileage of the average 2:30 marathoner", rather than inversing it to "what is the average weekly mileage the average runner needs to achieve a 2:30 marathon", because as most people will never be able to do a 2:30 marathon regardless of miles run. So towards these lower marathon times there's a strong inevitable population bias.
@@marathonhandbookassuming people post all their runs on strava
@@WouterBiesmansI think data around such a time will be very noisy as well. The pool of 2:30 runners is just much smaller than 3:00 or 4:00 runners, so the variance is a lot higher. Good luck on getting that 2:30 though 💪
Lydiard figured this out 70 years ago.
Glad we namechecked him at 03:00 then :)
A weekly mileage of ~25 km got me to 3:14. Increasing to 50 km this year.
Well that’s rather impressive. Strength training?
I have added strengrh training now but not up to my PR. I added hard cykling/spinning sessions 1-2 months prior to the race which I felt benifitted alot. One long run of 25 km at easy pace and the rest between 7 and 15 km.
A half marathon race the weekend before, PR @1:35. Decided to use the same speed minus the final push for the full marathon.
Not many could do this. You must have underlying fitness / other means of training (and I see you mentioned hiking and cycling).
@@deltaventura5207 What does "the rest between 7-15 km" contain?
Thanks for the study breakdown and data.. quick question 6:50, is this data also from that study?
Find it hard to believe people out here doing an average of 34miles (55km) to go sub 3? 🤔
34 miles of easy running, 50 miles total
Thanks, accurate
@@marathonhandbook I was also very surprised at how low the volume was in that table. My understanding based on following Pfitzinger, Sweat Elite, and some others is that you need at least 50 MPW to go sub-3 barring insane talent/cross training.
Thanks for the video. Appreciated
You bet
Does weekly mileage include all 2 mile warmups and 1 mile cool downs suggested or your 3.30 marathon plan? I wish it said total mileage on the plan.
Yeh normally would do
yes
They would account for easy miles, yes.
yessir.
This is normal training for 800 to the marathon. Lydiard talked about this, Van Aaken wrote about it. Dr. Tanaka in "slow jogging" ran a 2:38 in his 50's off of slow jogging. The Japanese elite runners jog 8-9 min miles for the majority of their runs which tends to be 3-4 min slower than their marathon pace.
feels so good to put on my plated shoes and go fast tho
Really? Only 80km/ week to run 3:00?
average numbers from the Strava data say this, yes.
Does weekly mileage include all 2 mile warmups and 1 mile cool downs suggested or your 3.30 marathon plan? I wish it said total mileage on the plan.
Yes weekly mileage includes...all miles run.