Colt Service Model Ace: Carbine Williams Makes a .22 1911
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
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"Carbine Williams", aka David Marshall Williams, has a reputation as the designer of the M1 Carbine, and a very colorful history. He was a moonshiner who pled guilty to second degree murder of a sheriff's deputy and served time in prison. He gained a reputation as a gunsmith in prison, fixing the department's guns in the prison shop, and was eventually allowed to work on his own firearms designs. Eventually released, he patented a design for a gas tappet system. The system was used for the M1 Carbine (that was really the extent of his contribution to that design) and a related "floating chamber" system was used in a .22 rimfire conversion of the 1911 pistol and the M1919 Browning machine gun.
The Colt Service Model Ace used William's floating chamber concept to improve their previous Colt Ace .22 1911 conversion. The first prototypes were ready in 1932, and production ran from 1935 until 1945 (plus a reintroduction from 1978-1982). Most sales went to the US military, which bought 13,808 complete pistols and a bit more than 2,000 conversion kits. They were used for marksmanship training, as .22 rimfire ranges could be built in many more places than ones safe for full-power .45 ACP.
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There was a Columbo episode where the killer used a 22 conversion kit on an M1911 to commit the crime, then converted his pistol back to 45 cal. to throw off the police. The pistol was in a display case in the criminal's office. He hid the conversion kit--also in his office.
If he'd tossed the conversion kit he wouldn't have been caught - but the writers had to make him do something stupid or they'd have had to toss the script. I've wondered about a story plot like that myself. The character would buy a spare barrel at a gun show, use it for the crime, then replace the original barrel and toss the other one. He'd also need an extra firing pin? And extractor? Saw in some other crime show that they make distinctive marks on the brass.
Don't worry, I'm not the violent type, don't even own a gun. But I find the engineering fascinating.
@@donjones4719basically if you are going to use a pistol for a crime, you have to replace the entire slide afterwards. The breach face creates an impression on the brass, not just the barrel
@@M8Militaryby brass you mean casings?
If so - maybe it's best not to leave traces on-site?
Unless you mean bullet jackets, but unless I'm wrong they're not made from brass.
@@M8Military Thanks for the info.
@@donjones4719 The plot is actually better than that. Columbo does not suspect that a caliber conversion kit was used, nor does Columbo find the kit. Columbo just suspects that this guy is hiding something, probably a gun. Columbo uses the suspect's own film technique of subliminal cuts to modify the suspect's own promotional film, to plant the idea in his head of his office being searched by Columbo. The suspect himself rushes back to his office, because of the subliminal suggestions in the promotional film, and reveals what he has hidden there, the caliber conversion kit.
Went through US Navy Basic Training in 1983 and these were the pistols we used for "familiarization" with the M1911A1.
Was going to post this same info, only 1978.
Same in 1989
'85 in Orlando for me; everyone got to shoot five rounds of .22, and the top five scores got to shoot five rounds of .45. As I recall, we were never told what we actually scored. It seemed the idea was to get everyone to cap off their five rounds & get on to the next evolution. It wasn't until we got back to barracks that me & two other guys were informed that we missed out on a marksmanship ribbon by a few points. Dunno if that was actually true, but it cheesed me off a bit that no one thought to give us a heads up that we coulda' been shooting for score.
@@gordonsandine4261 I ended up qualifying on my own. Had an accident where I got my hand crushed in a rope in deck. During my recovery, Doctor recommended target shooting. Police range right next to NAVHOSP Long Beach, and on doctor orders I went shooting there almost daily after work, while on Limdu. There was a Reservest GMG, running the range and I ended up buying a revolver and qualified with that. Got my Expert pistol medal. I think I must have been one of the last to qual with a .38. I used a Smith and Wesson 686.
Dad was in a pre-war Cavalry unit that was half horse, half armored car. They went on to fight in France with M8 armored cars. He knew all about the Service Ace (and Browning machine guns !).
How in the world did they get a horse to breed with a armored car?
@@jaimesan2609Operation Stapler
@@jaimesan2609 Lot's of whiskey and Nat King Cole records.
So ELP's Tarkus wasn't all that far-fetched.
My Dad ended up over there too just before 'the bulge'. Armored cars, halftracks and jeeps. He made no mention of the motorcycles being where he was. Have to wonder if our fathers knew each other.
US military prior to World War Two; uses .22 calibre training gun to save a few bucks. US military today; loses track of trillions of dollars.
"loses"
[The Great Depression] People were more thrifty in the thirties, for some reason.
@@renzo_kookin4208You’re right, I should have said allegedly “loses” trillions.
@@Stevarooni
Curiously though. People still were building houses, buying cars etc. Not everybody was broke.
@@mpetersen6there is always a slice of the population that does very well from poor economic times. Normally people who carry substantial wealth into the decline and can exploit other people’s hard luck. It’s surprising easy to buy a house when the bank is foreclosing on all your neighbours.
When my brother was in the reserves he said they practiced tank main gun firing at the Army Reserve facility in Milwaukee. Indoor facility with a .22 mounted in the breech of an M60 turret.
When we Finns still used the 55 S 55 recoilless gun there was a training round that consisted of a 7,62×39 tracer bullet in a 7,65 Parabellum case.
i remember that in the novel, "without remorse", John Clark used a silenced m1911 comverted to fire 0.22 cal.
A fairly well written story about how alot of people owned those in the day as well
I could have sworn that he used a Browning Hi-Power in .22lr. I could be mistaken since I havent read Without Remorse in nearly 20 years
@@JosephDawson1986
Nope, ace conversion on a 1911
@@99dsm1 it Has been 20 years so the fact I even remembered it was a .22 amazes me
Very clever 😏 and bad ass too
US Navy was still using those things when I went through recruit training in 1989.
Yup, same here, in 1988.
Oh yeah. 1984 for me.
Now they use the nintendo "duck hunt" light-gun.
@@cases2939
The duck hunt "gun" was actually a crude tv camera
That's what they used at Great Lakes in 19889
Great little trainer. . . Beautiful practical tool. . . well preserved, cataloged and documented
'Dispatcher'
Artistic liberties not at all uncommon. . .
I hope your channel hasn't been effected by YT recent monetization changes. anyone reading the comments look into it. PLEASE! some really good firearms channels that are super informative and apolitical have been effected. I've always appreciated your attention to detail and historical accuracy.
Firearms channels with millions of subscribers are being demonitized and videos with embedded sponsors advertising firearms and components are being deleted from the platform. RUclips is going all out on its anti-2A crusade.
I have a late model Colt ACE (late 1970s production). They are very nicely made, but need a lot of cleaning. Mine starts to have issues after about 100 rounds until cleaned. Accuracy is fair and magazines are hard to find and expensive. Even the late guns bring a premium. I can only Imagine what an early gun like that would fetch today.
Great info, as always.
I bought an Ace made in 1937, it is in immaculate condition. I hate to admit it, but it was $ 8400.00. Crazy, I know.
@@coopandcarter A work of art! One can spend that much for a painted jug in an art store.
I would imagine that having a dead end like that in the pressurized system would cause carbon and other gunk to build up.
VERY interesting, thanks. Amazing that that small amount of movement was enough to cycle the slide.
I never knew those details about Carbine Williams. I watched that movie with my dad many times when i was a kid. He loved the M1 Garand and Carbine which were still being used when he was in the army in the early 60s.
I remember being told my my grand father who was a WW1 vet that they used to drape a wet blanket over a washing line as a backstop for the 1911
Here we go again. I don't need one, but after Ian does a video, I want one.
Did you just say a 22LR conversion of a 1919 machine gun??? I need to see that
American 180 on steroids
Well Tippmann's did make a 22LR chambered downscale of a M1919 so it's not impossible
Thanks!
1) The last US mounted cavalry charge was by the 26th Cavalry (Philippine Scouts) using their M1911A1's
2) Many National Guard Armories had 22 caliber ranges in the basement. In the ROTC unit where I was a cadet, we had an indoor range next to the drill hall.
When was that 1) ?
@@petebeatminister "The 26th Cavalry Regiment, consisting mostly of Philippine Scouts, was the last U.S. cavalry regiment to engage in horse-mounted warfare. When Troop G encountered Japanese forces at the village of Morong on 16 January 1942, Lieutenant Edwin P. Ramsey ordered the last cavalry charge in American history"
@@ROBERTNABORNEY Against the Japanese in WW2? That didn't end well, I assume.
Thanks for showing this beauty of a conversion unit Ian, the Colt Ace is a pretty nice training pistol despite some of its setbacks and hefty price tag. It would make a very nice collection piece.
I find the floating barrel insert interesting, I have two versions of the CMMG 22 cal conversion kits for the ar, I see a resemblance in how they are made and used! Very cool, thanks Ian!
The one gun I truly regret selling!
Ouch!
Informative, educational and fun. Ian you got a talent for producing videos, just don't change your format and the world will always be enjoying your work.
✌️
Hey it's the video that was posted by accident for like 5 minutes!
Yep! Saw it then, glad to see it back now
The Winchester G31 rifle video was suggested for me yesterday- the beginning of Ian’s treatment of Carbine Williams’ story 🤓
A fun and fascinating story it is! One of those "only in America" type things.
Thanks Ian really enjoy your content...especially the obscure and French arms!
I had a Colt .22 conversion for my .45 ACP and the floating chamber really worked, it gave the same recoil effect as the .45.
So, it's basically one-inch-punch operated? 😁
Impulse is impulse 😉
Same as short-stroke gas systems.
When Ian mentioned that there as less need for cavalry to be shooting one-handed from the saddle, I was thinking of the famous John Wayne as Rooster Cogburn scene where he delivers the “fill your hands, you son of a bitch” line, puts the reins between his teeth, and is firing with a gun in either hand.. Classic…
My Dad's National Guard unit was called up in 1941 before Pearl Harbor and he headed to Texas, he was cavalry. The Army was still converting from revolvers to automatics and the ammunition supply was out of whack. More auto rounds than revolver rounds, thus the half moon clips. Dad told me the automatic was generally hated, no one could hit anything with it. He never mentioned a .22 variant.
The one-handed shooting technique at the time probably wasn't favorable to that big moving slide.
Indeed but the notion that recoil throws the round off its intended path didn't help anything either.
Those guns using moon clips were designed to use 45 acp with moon clips, there were no "revolver" rounds for the m1917 revolver
@@99dsm1 Yes, but I wasn't referring to the M 1917, I was referring to the M 1909 in .45 long colt. Everybody didn't get the new stuff. In the Marine Corps I was using a Remington 1911 manufactured in 1940.
The half moon clips date from 1917 - the revolver cylinders were modified to take them (usually as a factory mod but sometimes as a third party alteration or armory rebuild).
I just wanted to thank you for these videos they are very nice and informational it will help me in my future of buying different types of weapons
Yesterday I saw Hickok 45 put out a video where he talked about receiving a strike for having a gun related sponsor. Apparently RUclips made up some new rules recently.
We are approaching election cycle, the already insane rules on YT always get even more crazy around now.
jfc do you live under a rock? that situation has been resolved for almost a week. Get your head out your ass
Remington also used the floating chamber on a couple of their .22 autoloading rifles so they could use shorts, longs and long rifles interchangeably.
This is the gun I was trained on in the Navy in 1987.
Another excellent 360 history presentation. I am curious about his secret making moonshine, must have been very good.
I have an original Colt conversion kit new in the box never installed. My dad bought it in 50's or 60's.
Remington made an autoloader rifle, the Model 550, that used the same floating chamber, and would digest shorts, longs, and long rifles interchangeably from its tube magazine. I grew up with one, a 550-1, that my half-brother, a sub-mariner in the Navy, purchased for our father in a PX in Morocco in the early 1950's. I don't recall it ever jamming, but it was a bear to tear down and clean...
I can't say why I am Al so interested in things made specifically for the U S Calvary, but this is nifty no matter where it was used. Thank you Ian for explaining another Forgotten Weapons
These conversions are always so cool. It almost seems more difficult to convert an existing firearm into something completely different but sort of keeping it the same externally, rather than just building something from the ground up.
Take a look at the rock island 22mag pistol.
It's kind of a crossover....at first glance it looks like a 1911, but a little different. It's not a conversion, but it's not something entirely new either. Definitely a hybrid, if you will.
This is gonna get demonetized/taken down immediately.
RUclips is cracking down on sponsorships from anything in the firearms industry.
yeah prob
Bro where have u been they started doing that like 5 years ago at this point lmao
@@bigbelix Yes, but it's at the point where they are threatening to take down channels not videos.
Hickok45 put out a PSA on it. Basically old videos sponsored by the gun industry risk losing money or having videos taken down while new videos could cost you your entire channel
@@SharpForceTrauma you heard about that. Bad news for RUclips gun fans.
@@bigbelix there was a major change in terms of service in June.
For another pre-WWII US military cost savings measure, check out the US’s M1937 blue denim uniform. It was basically a Canadian tuxedo for the battlefield.
I’ve known tens of the floating chamber Ace guns - never knew there was a straight blowback version!
Frickin early gang checking in
That's mechanically elegant
What a fascinating story and a very cool gun.
Huh. I independently thought of that floating chamber idea ages ago and wondered if it had ever been tried. Actually, assumed it must have been tried by people smarter than me and found not to work. Nice to know it does actually serve a purpose :)
Just watched an episode of Dracinifel on Admiral Nimitz. There is a photo (@14:43) showing Admiral Nimitz Bullseye style shooting a Service Ace.
in b4 this gets you a strike because of the sponsorship...
Yt gay fr
Yt gets a streetshidder for a CEO. Streetshidder immediately starts shidding all over yt.
go home with that racist garbage, the ceo is bad sure, but thats completely unrelated to his ethnicity
Very cool pistol
Hollywood misled us?! No way!
just yesterday i was looking at hickok 45 video covering the new google / youtube politics in regards guns related chanells and they suck bigtime ,
Regardless this is a great video ,i happen to have the argentine version of the colt Ace ,the Ballester Molina in 22lr and works exactly the same but has a frame that is prepared for 22lr ejection so it does not need the ejector mounted inbetween the barrel and the slide as separate piece , it has the floating chamber an works great .
in Argentina were produced some convertions over the original 45 acp ballester molinas that were produced by the Barcatti factory that had this feature of floating chamber , modified ejector ,floating chamber and 22lr magazines inserted into the original 45acp mags.
Thanks Ian
At least as late as 1987, the navy was still using the Colt Ace for giving the "bootcamps" at RTC Great Lakes, IL familiarization practice training.
Sadly, for some reason that I have forgotten, my company when I was there didn't get to shoot at all.
That floating chamber system is interesting, I wonder if it wasn't used in other types of small arms, probably the patent limited the application, considering how the M1 Carbine was made by winchester and that patent was sold to Colt, would be interesting to see how the carbine would work with that system instead of the one we all know.
I got to fire five rounds through a Colt Ace in Navy Boot camp in 1986. That was it. No checking the target, either,.
The frame still has a 45 extractor but it’s there to support the 22 extractor. Slick.
As always, very cool!
Very cool, Ian. could you highlight the similarities and differences between a floating chamber like this and a hesitation lock like in the Remington R51.
In 1974 I purchased Mark IV Series 70 in .45....$150.....a month later bought the Conversion Kit for $118. Went right on the gun, no problem..pretty accurate...not a tack driver, but reasonable...One caveat...it doesn't like 18 pound recoil springs..
Content is very good.
Hugh Fairfax: I GOT AN IDEA...
I have an argentinian H.A.F.D.A.S.A. ( Ballester Molina) . It shoots really well but it has a different ejector.
Gotta be new sights, great video, I have a kimber upper, have problems
Antreg produced very high quality CZ75 style pistol on same principle call Orion.
I often wonder about the narrative of Carbine Williams being a grumpy sort. Ill bet it depends on whose doing the telling. It couldnt have been much fun being an ex con tossed in with a bunch of ivy league engineers in New Haven. Thats just asking for trouble lol. At the North Carolina History Museum in Raleigh, they have his entire workshop inside lock, stock, and barrel. They have several of his prototype weapons there including i believe a blow forward carbine as well as a floating chamber conversion of a long recoil model 8 Remington. The famous Winchester model 59 fiberglass barreled shotgun also features the Williams floating chamber.
Cavalry armed with Colt .45 and charging against Panzer IV, that's surreal to imagine.
Would love to see a Argentine Sistema 1927 video
Very interesting; thanks! Somewhat off topic, I have recently seen the tappet system referred to as a short-stroke piston system. It took me aback for a moment, but on reflection I see the reasoning. To me, though, it will always be a tappet system.
I remember navy boot camp. This was the basic firearm for training. 1989
Have you considered going to the North Carolina history museum in Raleigh? There’s a decent display of prototype firearms from Carbine Williams
Good one
I have a rebuild Ace M-1911that I brought long time ago. This one was reserialized with colt slide.
It’s relatively easy to design complex machines. To make something happen with fewer parts takes a genius.
I would imagine that carbon buildup is an issue with a ”dead end” like that with little clearance. But since it comes apart so easily and is not a gunfight gun, it’s not a huge drawback.
Very interesting system!
Another very interesting video.
Great info!!
HK used Marshals floating chamber design in their P7 .22LR K3 pistol
"Limited budget"..... nowadays the military has no problem spending all of the taxpayer dollars
Nice video.
When I went to US Navy bootcamp in 1987, we shot a .22 LR version of the 1911. Seven rounds and.... I was qualified. LOL!
Interesting, as usual!
Ooh... Please tell me more about the actual cavalry horseback .22 1911 training.
Imagine having to ever say "the US amry's very limited budget".
So explain how this pistol has more recoil than a standard blowback version?🤔
Ownerus
I prototyped and patented a conversion similar to this except it used the standard 1911 and only changed the barrel and magazine. No modifications to the gun and all function like last shot hold open worked. Surprisingly (to me anyway) I couldn't generate any interest from anyone with the resources to bring it to production. So not such a great idea after all I guess. But I proved it could be done. With that and $4 I can get a bad cup of coffee😂
Was wondering how long ago this was filmed, went to there site shows out of stock.
YO!! is that a black PHANTOM on the wall behind you???? Do a video on that. THAT'S AWESOME!! I wish ian still read his comments. Somebody please tell him!
Was there a minimum fps cartridge that could be used to cycle the gun, or did the floating chamber take care of that problem? Enjoy your show, Thanks Ian!
Wow, no closed captioning on advertising! You tube has jumped the shark.
I'm assuming this wouldn't work on a full power rifle cartridge as the acceleration of the "chamber" into the bolt would be too great leading to HK-like problems. But would it work for centerfire pistol cartridges?
Wouldn't the difference in recoil and external ballistics make this of really limited use as a trainer?
The chamber is also the piston. Actually cleaver idea.
Is the color difference in bluing on the slide stop notch also due to heat treatment?.
@TeIe-me.ForgotenWeapons Don't pretend to be the owner of this channel, it is cringe.
Wowza
In 1989 at Great Lakes this was the only firearms training I got. And only 10 rounds. Very lame.
A ten round mag for a trainer. When the original only holds seven..huh that makes total sense.
You don’t have to load 10.
Esto ya lo vi en una conversión de Ballester Molina.
Why can't RUclipsrs just put the ad or the sponsorship at the start of the video. I'd bet dollars to donuts more people would actually watch it. Instead of the ad coming on mid sentence.
Sponsors pay more for embedded ads that can't simply be skipped at the start of the video, obviously.
Cool
A .22 caliber BAR you say? That sounds horrible enough to make me want to see you make a video about one.
Norway also made a conversion kit for the M 1914.
Nice