If they can't be recycled for parts, they are big roofshingles basically. So use them as such. You can recycle them later when the tech is there to do so, saves a lot on landfill and other raw material needs untill then.
It seems that the more technologically advanced we are, the more we have to do necessary but unprofitable activities. We have to adjust our system of economy and production to acomodate that.
This is why I am such an advocate extended producer responsibility and other methods for accounting and managing the total economic and environmental cost of products. From cradle to grave.
Solar panels don’t ever really ‘stop working’, the 20-30 years is the period of time they are guaranteed to output above a certain power threshold. However if you have an abundance of land there is no reason why you can’t keep using them to make energy for a long time
A current N-type c-Si solar PV panel will still generate ~80% of its original nameplate power after 50 years. The recycling processes presented here are only really concerned about the metal extraction. There's much more value in letting the panel continue generating electricity for another 50+ years.
Thank you for pointing it out. They can drop by up 50% to 70% by the time they are retired but I'd happily pay $20 for 50% panels. Remember the process isn;t profitable yet I;m saying there's a serious market for down cycling solar panels. If I keep using those panels for another 20 years I could do the math but too busy, seat of the pants, you save 25% of the CO2 recycling. Even assuming all panels drop to 25% or less when they are finally ready for the dump you're getting on average 25% power for that 20 years so not quite with everything factored but there's that 25% you were trying to save and yet it made you $20 instead of losing money, Oops, did I just call BS on the entire idea? What if at the end of the process you turn those effectively glass panels into a dirt cheap roofing system? You just need a mounting system and it could all but be gluing them to an existing roof and chalking between them. They are designed to resist hail and such so they are perfect for roofing. Say you get 15 or 20 years as a roof product? That's a 70 year lifecycle instead of 30 and you made money on the down cycling. Look if they can figure that out they don;t want to because I came up with all that on the fly so either they;re really dumb or I;m really smarter or the point was never to reduce CO2, it;s to make solar more expensive. I'm sure I can come up with similar for wind.....Give me 5 minutes........
@@VinoVeritas_The loss in value is usurpation by better panels. Upgrading from polycrystalline to monocrystalline arrays warrants a better recycling process. The number one way to facilitate that is end-of-life planning during the manufacturing process.
@@Relatablename c-Si solar PV cells have a maximum theoretical efficiency of ~30%. There are already panels (not cells) that are offering 24% efficiency. There isn't much more room for c-Si technology to advance into. The other thing that's important to calculate is the labour costs of removing the panels and replacing them. The priority for solar PV deployment is getting panels on every roof, using the high cost of labour once.
We use solar panels for 30 years. And want to recycle. We use plastic bottles for 5 minutes and don’t have any interest in recycling. We are lost as a society.
@@user-dr2pg8fk2ijust because we don’t recycle a lot doesn’t mean we don’t recycle. Most of it isn’t even able to be recycled, they’re not being thrown away for no reason.
One idea would be to make panels with a rating that says they were built with recycling in mind and thus are much easier to break down at end of life without using lots of energy and chemicals. Then have a requirement that newly installed panels must meet this recycle rating or else they will be charged a "disposal fee" baked into the price. They will be more expensive the first go around but we won't be leaving our children with mountains of waste from the number of panels (and wind turbine blades) we need.
Nearly 800,000,000 tons of used oil filters go to landfills every year and folks want to pretend that MAYBE up to 27 million tons of PV pannels are a problem? Please.
@@linussinus4949PV panels are literally sand if you removed the aluminum frame and plastic back cover. Only valuable thing there would be 0.1% silver. We can replace even that with copper with newer technological developments.
@@lindenhoch8396 Perhaps so we can continue living on our planet? Just a thought. Before you say anything, not my fault those who don't recycle are plain dumb.
If you're going to compare something to PV panels, how about actually finding realistic numbers. If you had actually looked into how many used oil filters are landfilled, you'd find that it completely disproves your point.
Having a „recycling tax“, similar to the one in the video, but on all things would solve all these problems. The tax should always be adjusted to make the more environmentally damaging process the exact same price or more expensive. This way there would be so much more money for innovation on improving these recycling / co2 extraction processes that they would get really cheap.
Hi there! Have you seen already our video "Why don't we just tax carbon emissions?" 👉 ruclips.net/video/e0LWiDdvFEk/видео.html Check it out and let us know what you think ✨
@@DWPlanetA Just watched it, very complex topic, explained excellently by your journalists. The gist of it seems to be: This works, if done properly and the tax is high enough. As always, politics and greed are the main factors challenging an implementation.
So add a tax to solar panels which are already subsidised by governments, who have taken that money from taxing the people? In the end the poor people will be paying for the richer people to cut their energy bills. This is how it works.
@@jagolago-bob Yes, having a tax on things that are subsidized is completely normal. Food is taxed and agriculture is subsidized. I agree that this is counterproductive and instead of subsidizing they should lower the tax rate instead. But there must be market incentives to buy less harmful thing so having a carbon tax on solar panels and everything else will be like subsidizing them because coal will me so much more expensive. I don‘t get how poor people play into this and how this would cut the energy bill of rich people. But of course the governments should aim to lower taxes for poor people and higher them for the rich. But that is a different discussion.
@@leonsvideos I meant that richer people can afford to buy solar cells and then eventually get cheaper electricity, whereas the poor don't have this possibility. The governments should subsidise or completely cover the costs of solar cells for the poor, instead of for the relatively wealthy, who can buy them at full price. The way it works is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
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Perhaps an alternative is to simply stockpile all the retired PV panels in one place, and wait for the silver price to rise over time. When silver become scarce enough, people will use PV junkyards as future silver mines.
You will need to make a huge factory to treat 50 years of solar panel. And storing them in good conditions will cost a lot of money, I think it is better to experiment on medium scale directly to fund the recycling
First time I’ve watched one of your videos. I like it, I’m subbing. Keep up the honest talk. I learned a lot and they’re doing a lot of great stuff but there’s a hell of a lot of hills to climb
It's hardly a "crisis", the amount of material going into landfills is absolutely tiny compared to the total amount of waste produced per year. You could not recycle any of them and it would still be far better environmentally and healthwise than burning fossil fuels. It's good to recycle them though. How about we talk about the crisis of thousands of kilograms of material that cars are made of becoming waste after their similar length lives.
That's right! Most composite materials end up in landfill after a very short lifespan. All packaging made of composite materials, for example. An amount that is at least 1000 times greater than PV module scrap.
There are other similar solar PV plants elsewhere in France and other countries in Europe if I recall correctly. Most of the time, the recovery of materials is reaching over 90%. Which is really good.
A first step should be that State Recycling Centres should be more heavily promoted as locations where PV Panels must be sent to for Materials Disposal by the Public and Businesses.
Raw materials should just me more expensive. The damage to the earth is not recyclable! Great to hear about such an important technology that is slowly maturing. I hope all panels in the future are recycled.
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Why aren't we making policies that make the manufacturers be the ones responsible for taking back their own products at their end of life and recycling them back into their product? They made the problem, they should be held responsible for it. This approach would be a major incentive for manufacturers to make products that are more easily recyclable too.
I really like the idea that manufacturers have responsibility for recycling, or they at least need to financially support the recycling process. That should encourage improvement in the recyclability of panels. I do wonder what materials solar panel manufacturing will use in 30 years. Will they have any overlap with the materials of 30-year old panels being recycled? Hopefully the recycled materials will still be useful in other industries, such as automotive as mentioned.
Great that we have progressin this field. Not great, that the knowledgge of process isn't shared. Only with public knowledge of recycling we'll be able to scale the recycling
Enjoyed the video. Sometimes progress takes time and subsidies. Take solar panels themselves. Originally they were subsidised, it took 10 years but prices dropped and it is now the biggest source of new electricity generation being deployed. I wonder what the current price of a solar panel is, to compare to the cost of recycling. And whether forcing the manufacturer to deal with it later is reasonable.
that would slow down solar panel adoptions, instead the government should subsidize solar panel recycling. they shouldn't be passing down the cost to the consumer and making solar panels less desirable.
We have multiple videos on gas and oil! 🛢️ Check out our channel for them. Here's one to start with 👇 "Why fossil fuel companies should be lawyering up" ruclips.net/video/yVYzHgHx8U4/видео.html
You can dissolve Si in NaOh or in other alkalis and Ag in a proportion of 1:3 solution of HNO3+HCl for example. You can get pure Ag back by mixing the solution with the AgCl in it with NaOH to get Ag2O, then add glucose to reduce it back to silver. It might not be the exact method they use but one way to do it.
Our panels are 22 years old. We have a small 3.5 KW system. It powers our house and a Chevy Volt (4 KW). We currently have a negative electric bill. I think they will last a lot longer than people think.
Even if we had to all dump new solar capacity into a landfill in 30 years it's obviously very worth it. Apart from that, the silicon could be used in chips as raw quartz used has typically lower purity before refining. So with about $300 per panel today, there's $40 recycling cost, and $20 value of recycled materials, that's a pretty good deal already.
I like the article. It certainly is an interesting topic. Only thing that I found disappointing is that you did not send an interviewer with a chemical background, or had questions prepared by somebody of a chemical background. Key questions about their process were missed. In the video, the process is painted as being relatively simple. Some pyrolysis here, some solvents there, but the handling of these processes will make or break (economically/financially) the process. Solar panel recycling is totally not my area of expertise, but these are the kinds of things I'd love to know. Pyrolysis of polymers, under an oxygen-free atmosphere, will yield a type of oil which can be reused again. Yet the video shows a big chimney expelling CO2 and water... Why no recovery of the hydrocarbons? Also, what is so special about their pyrolysis process that makes it be kept secret? Why do the panels need to be intact to be processed? Why can't pyrolysis and solvent-cleaning be performed on damaged/shredded panels? around the 4:30 mark, it is mentioned that the pyrolysis oven settings are adjusted on the source material. How do they pratically determine the type of material/polymer used in the making of the panels when they are running at the eventual scaled up plant? Some solvent or acid is used to detach the silver "paste"(?) from the silicon. Apparently this cannot be done mechanically, so I take some type of adhesive has to be dissolved in order to free the silver. How is the solvent or acid recovered after its contaminated with the removed adhesive? They also mention having 5 filtration steps of the gaseous products of the pyrolysis. I take this means a series of wet scrubbers? How is the contaminated scrubber fluid handled?
A few thoughts and notes: $15-45 is quite expensive considering that a new PV module today at the wholesale level costs $35 for the smaller sizes up to $60 for the large sizes. Cost reduction through scaling seems to be the way forward. It sounds like the gatekeeper fee in France is extremely useful to close the current economic gap between virgin and recycled material. Such policies should be implemented everywhere. Focusing on silicon seems not the most promising option. Silicon represents only 1-5 % of the PV module. Wafers are not that expensive anymore and recycled silicon would only substitute new polysilicon which is cheap as well. Economic wise silver, glass, copper and aluminium are the more valuable materials. Still, recycled silicon is good for a large amount of CO2 reduction as the recycled silicon replaces the furnace process melting quartz gravel and the oxidation process at the beginning of the production chain.
DW, PLEASE make the background music quieter. right from the beginning of the video, it's SO SO distracting, SO strain-inducing, that i don't want to deal with the strain to try to watch the rest of the video.
If politicians make rules so that the panels are produced in a way so that they are easier to recycle, like the politicians do with making stricter rules for emissions for cars and houses, then the panel producers will come up with a solution in a matter of of a single year. Politicians are the problem.
End of life panels, at 70% power generating capacity are still functional. The still working ones should be sent to developing countries to extend their lifetime. Often, the reason for burying old panels in developed countries is that the labor cost of mechanically separating is too high. Perhaps nonfunctioning ones can also be sent there to be recycled, thus creating jobs.
That tax on PV sales, joined with cheap electricity coming from nuclear power, maybe explains why France has relatively few PV installations compared to other EU states.
Nuclear power is currently the most costly form of energy production. What are you talking about? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#/media/File:20201019_Levelized_Cost_of_Energy_(LCOE,_Lazard)_-_renewable_energy.svg
What did you expect from a company prodecting its IP? I'm surprised they let you film inside their facility let alone tell you all about their process.
The solar panel recycling economy problem : 1. solar panel is long lasting. 2. It is energy intensive. The biggest challenge is Germany energy price, then it is scale of economy problem, Germany total solar photovoltaic only reach 82GW in 2023. OTH, China photovoltaic will reach 1TW in 2030, with graduate obsolescence replacement, China photovoltaic will easily reach the scale of economy pretty soon. In addition, the terrawatt photovoltaic in China means it can use the energy for both manufacturing and recycling. And advantages that even US failed to harness.
It sounds like their business model is: Only if stricter regulations are introduced, will we be able to break even or get some money from our plant. Not sure about it 🤭
Few things, like potential inducted degradation caused by stray currents, exposure to sunlight, mostly UV rays can cause chemical reactions or physical ones. The polymer structure of plastics are weakend because the light excites carbon-carbon covalent bonds while decreasing the bond's length. Added stabilisers, colorants can also degrade-migrate, turn yellow and as a result micro-cracks can appeare. Electrostatic damages, by high currents, metal corrosion, small internal hidden faults. The panels are placed often in harsh weather conditions wich does not help either. They all lower the efficiency of the panel over time, like 1% /year. If the panel was built well and taken care of, it can last much longer but I'll operate at a lower efficiency so replacing it might be simply more profitable.
Isn't gold a better conductor then silver?. Can we make the glass thinner but with same or better strength. Can we add native grasses and shrubs to help reduce the heat under them helping cool them making them more efficient and last longer.
BioLite's thermal technology uses a thermoelectric genera- tor (TEG) to convert heat from a fire into electricity. The elec- tricity can then be used to power a fan and charge devices, like phones, cameras, and headlamps. The technology also includes a patented combus- tion process that burns smoke before it es- capes the fire. -Demand Electricity Top-off priomes lights, watches and Here's how BioLite's thermal technology works: • Heat capture: A heat probe attached to the power pack captures waste heat from the fire. • Electricity generation: The TEG converts the heat into electricity. • Fan: The electricity powers an internal fan that injects air into the fire chamber. • Combustion: The fan improves combustion, creating a cleaner and more efficient burn. • Battery storage: Excess electricity is stored in an internal battery. • Charging: Devices can be charged via USB in real time, even when the fire isn't going. • LED dashboard: An LED dashboard provides feedback on how much power is available By applying this companie and other's technologies to facilities that use furnaces we can generate extra power for the facility and possibly more for the surrounding areas.
Everything has to be recycled! We need to start from our homes. Problem is that people still put more in the black bins than in green ones, or yellow, or brown ones etc. depending in which region or country you are living in. The law and fines are a joke. Recycle!!!
@@GaryV-p3h I once worked in a motorcycle shop, and I noticed that the boss used to dispose of used engine oil by pouring it down the bank of a stream that ran behind the shop.
Yeah, there are many ongoing issues with different types of waste. 🙄Take a look at our channel for videos on these! And, stay tuned for this Friday as we release a video on repair culture. 🦾
What is the full life cycle anaysis of a solar panel from the first iningof bauxite, the extraction ofoil for plastic and the mining of silicon to the recycling of the solar panels using this process. It seems that the whole process is VERY, VERY energy intensive. So what is the Energy Return on Energy Invested. Do the solar panels have an EROI of lessthan 1, less than 10 or ????
There's different estimates from so little as 0.8 to 9-10. ☀️And, there are fundamental aspects EROI does not capture! We have this video that looking into some of the not-so-green sides to the technology 👇 ruclips.net/video/EWV4e453y8Y/видео.html (Study on PV EROI 🔗 www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421516307066)
The cost of processes and labor in the developed world for recycling is high. We also externalize the negative aspects of producing virgin materials such as burning more fossil fuels and environmental degradation.
I was going to ask if there’s a way to involve mfrs on the front end of the production process to facilitate end of life recycling. Seems like the tech for that isn’t quite ready yet. Then again even if that was happening now who knows what the tech will be 30 yrs from now.
I have a idea about liquid cooled solar panels, running liquid through whole back, increasing efficiency and possibly increase lifespan, and generating hot water. Seen some companies did that but it still not common in solar industries. Adding another layer of channeled glass behind shouldn't be that much expensive right?
Making it all sound like rocket science isn't going to help with the problem. I recycle electronics at a home scale, for now more as a hobby than a job, though i am still in the learning stage. Plans are available to build a small pyrolysis plant, so thats not the issue. The biggest issue I've found is actually getting my hands on end of life solar panels, so for now I'm focusing on e waste.
How long are we going to rely on old silicon technology, it’s time to leave our obsession of silicon photovoltaics behind. it time to innovate and adapt to next generation photovoltaics like Perovskites.
Sweet you mentioned this as we have a video just for you! 👇 "Are perovskite cells a game-changer for solar energy?" ruclips.net/video/Fft4UT7kGxg/видео.html
It's understandable that they want to keep thier knowledge secret if they want to be competitive and profitable. At the same time system that require keeping secret things usefull to whole world it's just bad.
3:27 so tiring to see intellectual property and the market blocking rapid adaption of a possible solution to a problem. Our collective problems will only be solved if a select few can profit from them
This shouldn’t be called “recycling” it SHOULD be called “re-sourcing” since you are just trying to source valuable materials from these objects. Recycling is trying to use the material but in a less effective way.
We explain the problem with burning stuff in one of our videos you can check out here 👇 "Why don’t we just burn our trash?" 📺 ruclips.net/video/OPVUrO-_7SM/видео.html
This is not a problem. Solar reflectors and stirling heat engines can accomplish these goals easily. They are significantly more durable and recyclable. As for storage. Spilt water, use the hydrogen to makes gasoline. Store for existing generators.
CSP Stirling engines are even more prone to wear and tear, require more maintenance, LCOE is much higher, efficient only in regions with clear sky conditions, less flexible and harder to scale. CSP is a good solution for many applications but no way that it could replace solar PV.
Yah, best guess: They aren't viable. You were invited before they could show you anything because they needed PR for more funding. 1) Virgin materials are still very cheap. The market doesnt care about problems that far in advance 2) Unless a product was specially created to be mass recycled, it's going to be a pain to recycle 2b) The market does not care about designing recyclable products 3) Recovering 20 dollars a panel isn't bad... but it also isnt great People need to stop making environmental arguments and start spending more time figuring out how to make something work economically. One idea: The manufacture and recycler have a deal where panels are produced in a recyclable way in exchange for call options on the amount of materials recycled that was originally produced by them
Cease using landfills altogether and methodically store "everything" that doesn't get repaired, recycled or reused neatly and responsibly until it does. If it doesn't it doesn't, it remains stored indefinitely. This was the original issue all along, just too lazy and cheap to handle our used item and materials to a decent standard. What a bunch of Kunts.
The question is: how many energy is required to recycle this marvel? To melt, split and refine all materials, move them back to a production line. A lot. The nature solve it with plants, not in decades but in millions of years. They convert solar energy into chemical energy we can use removing carbon dioxide from atmosphere. We can easily store chemical energy as ethanol. We can easily use chemical energy to produce electric energy by gas turbines. All carbon dioxide released is again captured by plans and the cycle continues. The big problem is lack of willing to share power and money not lack of energy.
The way they're built, recycling to recover valuable materials makes more sense than trying to restore the original capacity. But repairing in general is something we should go towards! Did you already check out this piece from us? 👇 "How Europe wants to stop the flood of broken stuff" 📺 ruclips.net/video/3oJV66q3Pk8/видео.html
Honestly, the secrecy on display in this one makes me distrust their process quite a bit. We're talking about heavy metals, precious metals, environmental/health hazards, etc. These are not exactly ideal cases for 'trade secrets.' Why not open source the solution if we care about the environment so much?
What do you think is the best way to deal with end-of-life solar panels?
When nobody is looking, dump them in your neighbours yard? 😉😉
@@somerandomfella
And your neighbor is doing the same thing....😅
@@JusticeAlways 😋
If they can't be recycled for parts, they are big roofshingles basically. So use them as such. You can recycle them later when the tech is there to do so, saves a lot on landfill and other raw material needs untill then.
bruh its like solving one problem with another
It seems that the more technologically advanced we are, the more we have to do necessary but unprofitable activities. We have to adjust our system of economy and production to acomodate that.
Абсолютно верно.
@@baknata2862 hahhahahaha
Given CEOs today are living in high castles, that won't be a problem.
weird take. it's rather that we did a shit job until now and basically borrowed from future generations. time's up
This is why I am such an advocate extended producer responsibility and other methods for accounting and managing the total economic and environmental cost of products. From cradle to grave.
Solar panels don’t ever really ‘stop working’, the 20-30 years is the period of time they are guaranteed to output above a certain power threshold. However if you have an abundance of land there is no reason why you can’t keep using them to make energy for a long time
A current N-type c-Si solar PV panel will still generate ~80% of its original nameplate power after 50 years. The recycling processes presented here are only really concerned about the metal extraction. There's much more value in letting the panel continue generating electricity for another 50+ years.
Thank you for pointing it out. They can drop by up 50% to 70% by the time they are retired but I'd happily pay $20 for 50% panels. Remember the process isn;t profitable yet I;m saying there's a serious market for down cycling solar panels. If I keep using those panels for another 20 years I could do the math but too busy, seat of the pants, you save 25% of the CO2 recycling. Even assuming all panels drop to 25% or less when they are finally ready for the dump you're getting on average 25% power for that 20 years so not quite with everything factored but there's that 25% you were trying to save and yet it made you $20 instead of losing money, Oops, did I just call BS on the entire idea? What if at the end of the process you turn those effectively glass panels into a dirt cheap roofing system? You just need a mounting system and it could all but be gluing them to an existing roof and chalking between them. They are designed to resist hail and such so they are perfect for roofing. Say you get 15 or 20 years as a roof product? That's a 70 year lifecycle instead of 30 and you made money on the down cycling. Look if they can figure that out they don;t want to because I came up with all that on the fly so either they;re really dumb or I;m really smarter or the point was never to reduce CO2, it;s to make solar more expensive. I'm sure I can come up with similar for wind.....Give me 5 minutes........
With the exception of recycling broken or damaged panels.
@@VinoVeritas_The loss in value is usurpation by better panels. Upgrading from polycrystalline to monocrystalline arrays warrants a better recycling process. The number one way to facilitate that is end-of-life planning during the manufacturing process.
@@Relatablename c-Si solar PV cells have a maximum theoretical efficiency of ~30%. There are already panels (not cells) that are offering 24% efficiency. There isn't much more room for c-Si technology to advance into.
The other thing that's important to calculate is the labour costs of removing the panels and replacing them.
The priority for solar PV deployment is getting panels on every roof, using the high cost of labour once.
We use solar panels for 30 years. And want to recycle.
We use plastic bottles for 5 minutes and don’t have any interest in recycling.
We are lost as a society.
precious metals vs plastic. Also we do recycle plastic so....
@@RandomUserOnTheInterWebs Check stats before speaking wack.
Plastic is the last hope of oil companies
Only America, India and Africa don't recycle plastic bottles
@@user-dr2pg8fk2ijust because we don’t recycle a lot doesn’t mean we don’t recycle. Most of it isn’t even able to be recycled, they’re not being thrown away for no reason.
One idea would be to make panels with a rating that says they were built with recycling in mind and thus are much easier to break down at end of life without using lots of energy and chemicals. Then have a requirement that newly installed panels must meet this recycle rating or else they will be charged a "disposal fee" baked into the price.
They will be more expensive the first go around but we won't be leaving our children with mountains of waste from the number of panels (and wind turbine blades) we need.
Nearly 800,000,000 tons of used oil filters go to landfills every year and folks want to pretend that MAYBE up to 27 million tons of PV pannels are a problem? Please.
Both are problems. Circular economy is the way to go.
But oil filters don't contain valuable and reusable ressources. Why would anyone want to recycle them.
@@linussinus4949PV panels are literally sand if you removed the aluminum frame and plastic back cover.
Only valuable thing there would be 0.1% silver. We can replace even that with copper with newer technological developments.
@@lindenhoch8396 Perhaps so we can continue living on our planet? Just a thought. Before you say anything, not my fault those who don't recycle are plain dumb.
If you're going to compare something to PV panels, how about actually finding realistic numbers. If you had actually looked into how many used oil filters are landfilled, you'd find that it completely disproves your point.
Having a „recycling tax“, similar to the one in the video, but on all things would solve all these problems. The tax should always be adjusted to make the more environmentally damaging process the exact same price or more expensive. This way there would be so much more money for innovation on improving these recycling / co2 extraction processes that they would get really cheap.
Hi there! Have you seen already our video "Why don't we just tax carbon emissions?" 👉 ruclips.net/video/e0LWiDdvFEk/видео.html Check it out and let us know what you think ✨
@@DWPlanetA Just watched it, very complex topic, explained excellently by your journalists. The gist of it seems to be: This works, if done properly and the tax is high enough. As always, politics and greed are the main factors challenging an implementation.
So add a tax to solar panels which are already subsidised by governments, who have taken that money from taxing the people? In the end the poor people will be paying for the richer people to cut their energy bills.
This is how it works.
@@jagolago-bob Yes, having a tax on things that are subsidized is completely normal. Food is taxed and agriculture is subsidized. I agree that this is counterproductive and instead of subsidizing they should lower the tax rate instead. But there must be market incentives to buy less harmful thing so having a carbon tax on solar panels and everything else will be like subsidizing them because coal will me so much more expensive. I don‘t get how poor people play into this and how this would cut the energy bill of rich people. But of course the governments should aim to lower taxes for poor people and higher them for the rich. But that is a different discussion.
@@leonsvideos I meant that richer people can afford to buy solar cells and then eventually get cheaper electricity, whereas the poor don't have this possibility.
The governments should subsidise or completely cover the costs of solar cells for the poor, instead of for the relatively wealthy, who can buy them at full price.
The way it works is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Thanks for filming all this! I'm very grateful
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Perfect more of this please❤️
We need to call out the hypocrisy of blindly doing stuff!
I really enjoyed the video. It highlights the importance of recycling the ability of solar panels and other materials.
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Perhaps an alternative is to simply stockpile all the retired PV panels in one place, and wait for the silver price to rise over time. When silver become scarce enough, people will use PV junkyards as future silver mines.
We wouldn't want silver for PV panels in the future though. Silver will be needed for other electronic equipment though.
You will need to make a huge factory to treat 50 years of solar panel. And storing them in good conditions will cost a lot of money, I think it is better to experiment on medium scale directly to fund the recycling
@@nilsnoel6628 You don't need to store junk PV panels in good condition. Just don't mix them with other municipal and industrial gargages.
@ericgardiner7715 Maybe, but landfills are giant methane generators which itself is a risk to society if opened up.
@@Relatablename If a landfill accept only PV panels, it will not generate methane.
First time I’ve watched one of your videos. I like it, I’m subbing. Keep up the honest talk. I learned a lot and they’re doing a lot of great stuff but there’s a hell of a lot of hills to climb
It's hardly a "crisis", the amount of material going into landfills is absolutely tiny compared to the total amount of waste produced per year. You could not recycle any of them and it would still be far better environmentally and healthwise than burning fossil fuels. It's good to recycle them though. How about we talk about the crisis of thousands of kilograms of material that cars are made of becoming waste after their similar length lives.
That's right! Most composite materials end up in landfill after a very short lifespan. All packaging made of composite materials, for example. An amount that is at least 1000 times greater than PV module scrap.
There are other similar solar PV plants elsewhere in France and other countries in Europe if I recall correctly. Most of the time, the recovery of materials is reaching over 90%. Which is really good.
A first step should be that State Recycling Centres should be more heavily promoted as locations where PV Panels must be sent to for Materials Disposal by the Public and Businesses.
Raw materials should just me more expensive. The damage to the earth is not recyclable! Great to hear about such an important technology that is slowly maturing. I hope all panels in the future are recycled.
Informative 👊
Hey there! Very glad to hear that you enjoyed the video. We post new videos like this one every week. We would love to see you subscribe and hear what you think about our upcoming videos ✨
Great video, this is technology in which we need to invest lots more
Why aren't we making policies that make the manufacturers be the ones responsible for taking back their own products at their end of life and recycling them back into their product? They made the problem, they should be held responsible for it.
This approach would be a major incentive for manufacturers to make products that are more easily recyclable too.
If you do that, in 30 years they will close the company and open another one.
Same thing happened with capping oil wells.
I really like the idea that manufacturers have responsibility for recycling, or they at least need to financially support the recycling process. That should encourage improvement in the recyclability of panels. I do wonder what materials solar panel manufacturing will use in 30 years. Will they have any overlap with the materials of 30-year old panels being recycled? Hopefully the recycled materials will still be useful in other industries, such as automotive as mentioned.
Great that we have progressin this field.
Not great, that the knowledgge of process isn't shared. Only with public knowledge of recycling we'll be able to scale the recycling
Enjoyed the video. Sometimes progress takes time and subsidies.
Take solar panels themselves. Originally they were subsidised, it took 10 years but prices dropped and it is now the biggest source of new electricity generation being deployed.
I wonder what the current price of a solar panel is, to compare to the cost of recycling. And whether forcing the manufacturer to deal with it later is reasonable.
Add a recycling fee on top of the purchase price of the solar panels and use that to develop even better methods to recycle them
Should do the same with all the engine oil from oil changes each year.
that would slow down solar panel adoptions, instead the government should subsidize solar panel recycling. they shouldn't be passing down the cost to the consumer and making solar panels less desirable.
Please make a video on the waste generated by oil and gas industry also, e.g. refineries.
We have multiple videos on gas and oil! 🛢️ Check out our channel for them. Here's one to start with 👇
"Why fossil fuel companies should be lawyering up"
ruclips.net/video/yVYzHgHx8U4/видео.html
You can dissolve Si in NaOh or in other alkalis and Ag in a proportion of 1:3 solution of HNO3+HCl for example. You can get pure Ag back by mixing the solution with the AgCl in it with NaOH to get Ag2O, then add glucose to reduce it back to silver.
It might not be the exact method they use but one way to do it.
I'm sure that the filters for the pyrolysis process are a big hidden cost and a significant waste generator itself.
Our panels are 22 years old. We have a small 3.5 KW system. It powers our house and a Chevy Volt (4 KW). We currently have a negative electric bill. I think they will last a lot longer than people think.
Nice to have but doesn't sounds like a priority. The plastic is the only bad thing as trash and it's not that much. But, again, nice to have.
Do you mean Aluminium?
Even if we had to all dump new solar capacity into a landfill in 30 years it's obviously very worth it. Apart from that, the silicon could be used in chips as raw quartz used has typically lower purity before refining. So with about $300 per panel today, there's $40 recycling cost, and $20 value of recycled materials, that's a pretty good deal already.
a panel cost around 100€
I'm just freaked out by their American spelling and pronunciation of aluminium.😮
same here
I like the article. It certainly is an interesting topic. Only thing that I found disappointing is that you did not send an interviewer with a chemical background, or had questions prepared by somebody of a chemical background. Key questions about their process were missed. In the video, the process is painted as being relatively simple. Some pyrolysis here, some solvents there, but the handling of these processes will make or break (economically/financially) the process. Solar panel recycling is totally not my area of expertise, but these are the kinds of things I'd love to know.
Pyrolysis of polymers, under an oxygen-free atmosphere, will yield a type of oil which can be reused again. Yet the video shows a big chimney expelling CO2 and water... Why no recovery of the hydrocarbons? Also, what is so special about their pyrolysis process that makes it be kept secret?
Why do the panels need to be intact to be processed? Why can't pyrolysis and solvent-cleaning be performed on damaged/shredded panels?
around the 4:30 mark, it is mentioned that the pyrolysis oven settings are adjusted on the source material. How do they pratically determine the type of material/polymer used in the making of the panels when they are running at the eventual scaled up plant?
Some solvent or acid is used to detach the silver "paste"(?) from the silicon. Apparently this cannot be done mechanically, so I take some type of adhesive has to be dissolved in order to free the silver. How is the solvent or acid recovered after its contaminated with the removed adhesive?
They also mention having 5 filtration steps of the gaseous products of the pyrolysis. I take this means a series of wet scrubbers? How is the contaminated scrubber fluid handled?
A few thoughts and notes:
$15-45 is quite expensive considering that a new PV module today at the wholesale level costs $35 for the smaller sizes up to $60 for the large sizes. Cost reduction through scaling seems to be the way forward. It sounds like the gatekeeper fee in France is extremely useful to close the current economic gap between virgin and recycled material. Such policies should be implemented everywhere.
Focusing on silicon seems not the most promising option. Silicon represents only 1-5 % of the PV module. Wafers are not that expensive anymore and recycled silicon would only substitute new polysilicon which is cheap as well. Economic wise silver, glass, copper and aluminium are the more valuable materials. Still, recycled silicon is good for a large amount of CO2 reduction as the recycled silicon replaces the furnace process melting quartz gravel and the oxidation process at the beginning of the production chain.
DW, PLEASE make the background music quieter. right from the beginning of the video, it's SO SO distracting, SO strain-inducing, that i don't want to deal with the strain to try to watch the rest of the video.
If politicians make rules so that the panels are produced in a way so that they are easier to recycle, like the politicians do with making stricter rules for emissions for cars and houses, then the panel producers will come up with a solution in a matter of of a single year. Politicians are the problem.
I just love the fact solar panels need silver!
There is nothing not recycleable about the panels. Glass, silver, copper, aluminum, silicon, and a bit of plastic.
Very interesting maybey thi gs need to be more recyclable
End of life panels, at 70% power generating capacity are still functional. The still working ones should be sent to developing countries to extend their lifetime. Often, the reason for burying old panels in developed countries is that the labor cost of mechanically separating is too high. Perhaps nonfunctioning ones can also be sent there to be recycled, thus creating jobs.
That tax on PV sales, joined with cheap electricity coming from nuclear power, maybe explains why France has relatively few PV installations compared to other EU states.
Nuclear power is currently the most costly form of energy production. What are you talking about?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#/media/File:20201019_Levelized_Cost_of_Energy_(LCOE,_Lazard)_-_renewable_energy.svg
there's not such thing as "aluminum"
What did you expect from a company prodecting its IP? I'm surprised they let you film inside their facility let alone tell you all about their process.
The solar panel recycling economy problem : 1. solar panel is long lasting. 2. It is energy intensive. The biggest challenge is Germany energy price, then it is scale of economy problem, Germany total solar photovoltaic only reach 82GW in 2023. OTH, China photovoltaic will reach 1TW in 2030, with graduate obsolescence replacement, China photovoltaic will easily reach the scale of economy pretty soon. In addition, the terrawatt photovoltaic in China means it can use the energy for both manufacturing and recycling. And advantages that even US failed to harness.
It sounds like their business model is: Only if stricter regulations are introduced, will we be able to break even or get some money from our plant. Not sure about it 🤭
Actually, what is in the blurry image in the lab?
trades secret else competitor will copy their idea
Why put a patent on saving the environment?
What exactly happens inside a solar cell after 20-30 years that makes the fail?
Few things, like potential inducted degradation caused by stray currents, exposure to sunlight, mostly UV rays can cause chemical reactions or physical ones. The polymer structure of plastics are weakend because the light excites carbon-carbon covalent bonds while decreasing the bond's length. Added stabilisers, colorants can also degrade-migrate, turn yellow and as a result micro-cracks can appeare.
Electrostatic damages, by high currents, metal corrosion, small internal hidden faults.
The panels are placed often in harsh weather conditions wich does not help either.
They all lower the efficiency of the panel over time, like 1% /year. If the panel was built well and taken care of, it can last much longer but I'll operate at a lower efficiency so replacing it might be simply more profitable.
If the energy used to separate these elements - electricity, energy calculated in CO2 emissions?
Isn't gold a better conductor then silver?.
Can we make the glass thinner but with same or better strength.
Can we add native grasses and shrubs to help reduce the heat under them helping cool them making them more efficient and last longer.
Can we make solar module float in mid air so that it don't occupy land space? Can we teleport to other country instead of taking a plane there?
BioLite's thermal technology uses a thermoelectric genera- tor (TEG) to convert heat from a fire into electricity. The elec- tricity can then be used to power a fan and charge devices, like phones, cameras, and headlamps. The technology also includes a patented combus- tion process that burns smoke before it es- capes the fire.
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Top-off priomes lights, watches and
Here's how BioLite's thermal technology works:
• Heat capture: A heat probe attached to the power pack captures waste heat from the fire.
• Electricity generation: The TEG converts the heat into electricity.
• Fan: The electricity powers an internal fan that injects air into the fire chamber.
• Combustion: The fan improves combustion, creating a cleaner and more efficient burn.
• Battery storage: Excess electricity is stored in an internal battery.
• Charging: Devices can be charged via USB in real time, even when the fire isn't going.
• LED dashboard: An LED dashboard provides feedback on how much power is available
By applying this companie and other's technologies to facilities that use furnaces we can generate extra power for the facility and possibly more for the surrounding areas.
Everything has to be recycled! We need to start from our homes. Problem is that people still put more in the black bins than in green ones, or yellow, or brown ones etc. depending in which region or country you are living in. The law and fines are a joke. Recycle!!!
Its time to make fossil free energy really fossil free
The solve for Solar is clearly to increase tariffs massive for Solar Panels sold out of China since they are significantly cheaper
A lot easier to recycle than the millions of litres of engine oil from oil changes worldwide each year.
@@GaryV-p3h I once worked in a motorcycle shop, and I noticed that the boss used to dispose of used engine oil by pouring it down the bank of a stream that ran behind the shop.
Something has to be done
It really isn't that big of a problem compared to the other waste that we generate.
Yeah, there are many ongoing issues with different types of waste. 🙄Take a look at our channel for videos on these! And, stay tuned for this Friday as we release a video on repair culture. 🦾
What is the full life cycle anaysis of a solar panel from the first iningof bauxite, the extraction ofoil for plastic and the mining of silicon to the recycling of the solar panels using this process. It seems that the whole process is VERY, VERY energy intensive. So what is the Energy Return on Energy Invested. Do the solar panels have an EROI of lessthan 1, less than 10 or ????
There's different estimates from so little as 0.8 to 9-10. ☀️And, there are fundamental aspects EROI does not capture! We have this video that looking into some of the not-so-green sides to the technology 👇
ruclips.net/video/EWV4e453y8Y/видео.html
(Study on PV EROI 🔗 www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421516307066)
I still cant believe these recycled metals are much costlier than virgin ones. Can anyone explain why?
The cost of processes and labor in the developed world for recycling is high. We also externalize the negative aspects of producing virgin materials such as burning more fossil fuels and environmental degradation.
@@gr8bkset-524 Thanks a lot for such an insightful response!
Nobody is ever going to bother to recycle them unless there's enough of a profit to be made from doing so.
I was going to ask if there’s a way to involve mfrs on the front end of the production process to facilitate end of life recycling. Seems like the tech for that isn’t quite ready yet. Then again even if that was happening now who knows what the tech will be 30 yrs from now.
plot twist: long lasting solar panels exists but companies don’t sell them (it’s a real thing)
I have a idea about liquid cooled solar panels, running liquid through whole back, increasing efficiency and possibly increase lifespan, and generating hot water. Seen some companies did that but it still not common in solar industries. Adding another layer of channeled glass behind shouldn't be that much expensive right?
Any technology used on the scale of the global energy grid will have waste problems.
I want to start a business in this
Making it all sound like rocket science isn't going to help with the problem.
I recycle electronics at a home scale, for now more as a hobby than a job, though i am still in the learning stage.
Plans are available to build a small pyrolysis plant, so thats not the issue.
The biggest issue I've found is actually getting my hands on end of life solar panels, so for now I'm focusing on e waste.
Soon, landfill will be a new mining site
European and American countries are incredibly advanced in recycling technology
5 euros for a new, 15-45 euros for a recycled panel. You must recognize that it doesn't work economically.
"The plastic is turned into gas" aka they burn the plastic 😅
How long are we going to rely on old silicon technology, it’s time to leave our obsession of silicon photovoltaics behind. it time to innovate and adapt to next generation photovoltaics like Perovskites.
Sweet you mentioned this as we have a video just for you! 👇
"Are perovskite cells a game-changer for solar energy?"
ruclips.net/video/Fft4UT7kGxg/видео.html
It's understandable that they want to keep thier knowledge secret if they want to be competitive and profitable. At the same time system that require keeping secret things usefull to whole world it's just bad.
Hey Germany ! Still using coal to replace closed nuclear plants ?
Like they said, manufacturers should aim at making recycling easier.
We like cheap technology that is difficult to recycle or dispose
3:27 so tiring to see intellectual property and the market blocking rapid adaption of a possible solution to a problem. Our collective problems will only be solved if a select few can profit from them
Who manufactures the most of solar panels?
Chinese companies account for around 80% of the global solar panel production. 😎
They have been recycling them for years, particularly during covid when it actually became profitable at smaller scales for a while.
This shouldn’t be called “recycling” it SHOULD be called “re-sourcing” since you are just trying to source valuable materials from these objects. Recycling is trying to use the material but in a less effective way.
is Host, brother o😁😁😁f Johny Bairstrow ?? [English Cricketer]
bro, you just burn the thing, where is the complication???
We explain the problem with burning stuff in one of our videos you can check out here 👇
"Why don’t we just burn our trash?"
📺 ruclips.net/video/OPVUrO-_7SM/видео.html
❤️
Before the world get polluted i have to experience real nature's and mature life anyone help me
Kate Hoagland Hoagland
It's "alumin[i]um", DW, let's not 'Muricanise the language 😏
Just use them to back fill an open pit coal mine 😂
How do you make recycle pay...you build the factory in Africa and the cost will fall like a comet
Nuclear go brrrr
This is not a problem. Solar reflectors and stirling heat engines can accomplish these goals easily. They are significantly more durable and recyclable.
As for storage. Spilt water, use the hydrogen to makes gasoline. Store for existing generators.
CSP Stirling engines are even more prone to wear and tear, require more maintenance, LCOE is much higher, efficient only in regions with clear sky conditions, less flexible and harder to scale. CSP is a good solution for many applications but no way that it could replace solar PV.
Yah, best guess: They aren't viable. You were invited before they could show you anything because they needed PR for more funding.
1) Virgin materials are still very cheap. The market doesnt care about problems that far in advance
2) Unless a product was specially created to be mass recycled, it's going to be a pain to recycle
2b) The market does not care about designing recyclable products
3) Recovering 20 dollars a panel isn't bad... but it also isnt great
People need to stop making environmental arguments and start spending more time figuring out how to make something work economically. One idea: The manufacture and recycler have a deal where panels are produced in a recyclable way in exchange for call options on the amount of materials recycled that was originally produced by them
Cease using landfills altogether and methodically store "everything" that doesn't get repaired, recycled or reused neatly and responsibly until it does. If it doesn't it doesn't, it remains stored indefinitely.
This was the original issue all along, just too lazy and cheap to handle our used item and materials to a decent standard.
What a bunch of Kunts.
🤔🤔🤔
3:54 400C is just under 700F
If they are still working, donate them to the third world countries. They need solar, too.
so solar panel is a joke. you creat tons of co2 when create it and need tons of co2 to recycle
👀
The question is: how many energy is required to recycle this marvel? To melt, split and refine all materials, move them back to a production line. A lot. The nature solve it with plants, not in decades but in millions of years. They convert solar energy into chemical energy we can use removing carbon dioxide from atmosphere. We can easily store chemical energy as ethanol. We can easily use chemical energy to produce electric energy by gas turbines. All carbon dioxide released is again captured by plans and the cycle continues. The big problem is lack of willing to share power and money not lack of energy.
Repair don't recycle.
The way they're built, recycling to recover valuable materials makes more sense than trying to restore the original capacity. But repairing in general is something we should go towards! Did you already check out this piece from us? 👇
"How Europe wants to stop the flood of broken stuff"
📺 ruclips.net/video/3oJV66q3Pk8/видео.html
word salad
Honestly, the secrecy on display in this one makes me distrust their process quite a bit.
We're talking about heavy metals, precious metals, environmental/health hazards, etc. These are not exactly ideal cases for 'trade secrets.' Why not open source the solution if we care about the environment so much?
The patent can't be validate if there is a reveal of the method before. This is why the secrecy
@@nilsnoel6628 I agree, the patent system is absurd.
This kind of fear control tactic wont work on gen Z and beyond I'm sorry lol. We don't care about this planet, OOPS. BYE BYE.
Who could of foreseen this?