Navy J79s did not have a starter like USAF J79s. The Navy J79s had their CSDs (Constant Speed Drive) mounted on the J79 accessory drive pad where the starter is attached on USAF versions. The "bullet" on the nose of Navy J79s was much smaller than USAF versions, since there wasn't anything inside of it. USAF versions had their CSDs mounted inside that nose bullet fairing. The Navy "Huffer" pneumatic hose was attached through a small door, Door120, which was inset in engine bay Door 92L. Huffers put out a higher airflow mass than an AM32A-60, but the Navy jets could still be started with a Dash 60. It just took longer to spool the J79 up to 10 percent. The Navy J79 engine used a "direct impingement" of the pneumatic air blowing directly on the turbine inside the J79. I haven't seen a Navy manual showing how the pneumatic Huffer air was piped into the J79 to blow directly on the turbine. Hopefully some Navy or Marine could chime in and tell us about that. I helped start a transient F-4J once at McChord AFB, it was far, far easier than starting the F-4Cs and Es that I worked on at Kelly AFB, George AFB and Ramstein AB. It's been well over 30 years since then, but if my memory serves, Door 120 had spring latches and not Camlocs, no big flatblade screwdriver required. Also, the Dash 60 air was not cut off and restarted when the pilot switched from starting #2 to #1. The ground crewman just switched on the external air once at the pilot's direction, then cut it off at the pilot's direction after both engines were running.
Ex-Kurnass structural/airframe mantainer here. If I'm not mistaken, the E would have one or two starter carts per jet in the HAS, I believe the carts were common to F-16s as well, they were squat and wide carts. Door 92L seems familiar along with pannels 101 & 102. It's likely I closed out a few open items in the maintenance log book on 92 (loose solid rivits)
Also the Navy & Marine F-4s The reason you needed higher pressure air is it went straight to the turbine section where Air Force F-4s the starter was geared through the accessory drive gear box. With that said myself and an engine mechanic drove from Nellis Air Force Base outside of Las Vegas to Marine Corps air station El Toro to change out a starter that was blown up by the Marines because they hooked up their high-pressure air to the Air Force starter, and that didn’t work out at all someone else posted. You can start a navy marine aircraft with it - 60. It’s just gonna take a while to spool, but don’t start an Air Force navy Marine Corps air starter
Hi Ed. Thanks very much for the kindness of responding to my comment. We (followers) don't have that opportunity as often, which is understandable due to the number of comments you obviously receive. To have the honour of being your comment answered is a real treat. Thanks very much, sir. Good winds and happy landings from Portugal 🇵🇹
Early morning, 1985 (or so) at Bergstrom. (Long before it became an airport.) It was a bit cooler than normal, and our -60 would not turn over. Two of us rocked it back and forth. Big BOOM, large flame shot up, we scattered! One guy did a loop and shut it off, virtually "on the run". We didnt do THAT again .....
Got to do many "lauch assist" on F-4Es! When I got to Seymour Johnson in 83, they had stopped cart starting because of a fire. They recontinued a few years later! It was great after doing an Integrated Combat Turn to watch them cart start! I've also got to watch this done on F-111s, great stuff! "Love the smell of Cart Starting in the morning!"
I worked F-105 F&Gs at Korat. We rarely got -60s, used MD-3s for ground power. F-4Es grabbed every -60. We used starter cartridges exclusively. No problem with J-75s.
Thanks Diesel for the details. Can't imagine which decisions must have been made to implement a different start system than in Navy jets. Or maybe due to the already available starter carts having different pressure outputs. And yes, that Luftwaffe cartridge start video is awesome. Also the smoky engine runup.
My pleasure! Like to think the Air Force would have kept the original system, had they not wanted the fast start capability needed for a scramble/alert takeoff. Adding the starter there also moved the generator up to the nose of the engine.
Dear Sir: Thank you very, very much for this inside look at an air start cart! The first fighter a/c that I saw up close were transient CF-5s from CFB Cold Lake, Alberta. They would come down to Calgary where I lived needing fuel or just a different place to fly to. I was mesmerized as a boy watching the civvy techs scurrying underneath the rear of the a/c. I had the basic idea, but an add on for me was that once this cart was fired up to feed air to the J-85, I could always wait for the distinct red, rotary beacon light in the CF-5's upper vertical tail to start flashing when the engine lit off. Then I KNEW that this little beauty was definitely alive and going flying! Probably very similar to the USAF T-38 series. But still not sure if there was a "switch" to divert compressor air to the #2 engine, or if the hose itself had to be physically switched for #2? I’m sure that you have many T-38 maintenance folks who could start a Talon with their eyes closed. I am going to watch your video again on this part of the amazingly complex world of the Phantom. I also wonder if anyone would like to discuss the derogatory name of "Double Ugly" for the F-4? What a beautiful and incredible sight for the eyes and all other senses. Seeing it up close for the first time was jaw dropping. Those HUGE exhaust nozzles, and the size of the vertical tail and all moving stabs! AND watch HER go! All the Best!🇨🇦🍺
Navy/MC starting air blew across the exhaust rotors to spin up the engines, so there was no need for an exhaust door. And why it had a selector switch. Having a starting system that could catch on fire is not good for carrier operations.
I'm learning a lot about my favorite war machine, man. Thanks. Btw, I might be wrong, but I think the smoke generated by the cartridges was pretty toxic too.
My pleasure! I've heard that is stinks pretty bad because of sulfur based compounds. Not sure how toxic it is but I sure wouldn't want to breathe it for any length of time!
Don’t know the reason between services on the F-4, but on Air Force T-38’s they did have a valve to switch air between #1 & #2, only one connection for the -60. Engines were GE J85’s.
Your video brings back memories of working on F-4E's in 1982. The crew chief and I would have to idle the engine because the F-4 central air data computer has an input of bleed air off the engine. I had to change a CADC at least once a week. I remember the pressure hose would whip around more when it was turned on. I used to twirl my finger to let the crew chief know to turn on the exciter. If I were you, you should replace the whole pitot static system with a modern one if possible. Some instruments use 28VDC for power.
Yes. Not knowing, I “imagined” the -60 air was run straight into the combustion chamber (via a pipe) to pressurize it for ignition of injected fuel, in combination with electrical power running an electric starter. Such as electric motor gets engine turning to some low percentage RPM and then compressed air into the combustion chamber would assist ignition and on it would go from there. Now I know it’s simply an air motor that cranks the engine. So, in flight, if a flamed-out engine RPM fell below 10%, there would be no way to get it going again, right? …unless there was enough aircraft speed for the ram-air to windmill it back up to 10%…which I think I read somewhere was around 200-some knots? So, now I have another question: how is the air motor connected to the engine shaft? Through some reduction gearbox and a pinion gear to a ring gear on a compressor section disk? Does it stay connected all the time? There must be some sort of clutch, otherwise engine 100% RPM would seemingly spin that air motor over 100,000 RPM.
Great Video, Man! It's Cool To Think Everything You Just Explained Happened In A Few Seconds During The Squadron Scramble You Mentioned. Thank You. (Like #156)
Cool. Cartridge start is also common on the B-52 for alert starts. ThT is something to see and hear. The Daily Aviation and Fluctus channels have these a lot. Currently the F-22 uses a semi cart start.
There use to be a electric drive motor on -60s. That feature went away after many accidents and from what I heard some -60 races...... just can't crew chief's anywhere
That was pretty cool. Was wondering if they left the cartridge in place after startup or if it was removed. Was also surprised at the size. The only cartridge starter I've ever seen close up was in the old Jimmy Stewart movie "Flight Of The Phoenix", and they looked like shotgun shells. Be that as it may, you showed us many times the fitting for the installing the cartridge on the engine, but was a big vague on how it worked. I thought it was a fitting for a breach mechanism that you then inserted the cartridges into to fire. I also figured they left the cartridge on after firing to seal the system to keep air from escaping, and to keep FOD being ingested though the starter mechanism. After the starter is fired, does the crew have to put a plate or a seal of the cartridge starter fitting to keep from ingesting FOD?
Interesting that the engines don't have the ability to start each other; would save start cart handling time + it could add an in-flight restart capability maybe? Great video!
Great info as always, that German video was awesome, talk about smoke! I don't think the Nav birds had the deflector door. Was it one cartridge per engine?
Several things about a cart start on the J-79-GE-15. Typically once a cart start was finished, you do not remove the cartridge. The canister was very hot. In peace time cart starts were not done unless you were in a combat readiness exercise. To prevent a hang start you would bend the tabs on the cartridge down around 30-45°. There was not a cable from the base of the canister. Continuity was done through the handle to ignite the cart. If you had a hot start then a secondary CC would monitor for fire through the auxiliary air door. To prevent any type of fire the area around the exhaust door was wiped down very well before the start. Also you hoped for a light breeze on a cart start. They stink. As for the question about the serial numbers. Your F-4 is a 1963 model, hence your serial number is 63-7680 (C-model) 64 C-model start out 64-0XXX. All C-models. AF only had a few D-models. I crewed several C-models. My last one was 64-0660 which is now a static display at Niagara Falls International airport.
@@jimpemberton5971 actually the Collings Foundation Phantom is F-4D 65-0749, but it's painted to represent F-4C 63-7680 as it was when Robin Olds flew it for one of his MiG kills during the Vietnam conflict.
Correct! 63-7680 was the jet that he flew for Operation Bolo and was an F-4C. If I have the history of that aircraft correct, it was lost to anti-aircraft fire in November of 1967. Someone else answered this in that the Air Force painted on the last five digits of the serial number and changed it either late 60's or early 70's to using the year ordered and the last three digits. Appreciate the details on the cartridges!
@DieselThunderAviation Now do a video on the history of starting USAF jet aircraft. Do a comparison on how these aircraft were started: F-80/T-33 & their J33 engine. F-86 & B-47 and their J47 engine. F-100, F-101 & F-102 and their J57 engine. Was it any different than starting the J57s on a B-52? How about the starting of the J79’s on the B-58 Hustler? Then the F-105’s & F-106’s J75 engine. How about the A-7D’s TF41?
Have you heard of Agentjayz? He has done a couple rebuild series on a few J-79's (Including short pedal J-79's like yours) and has access to the different variants S&S turbines uses for parts. Its worth shooting him an email or mention to explain.
After several aircraft fires due to misfiring cartridges, USAFE quit using cart starts at QRA/Zulu. By 1983 when I was assigned to the 526 AMU at Ramstein, QRA was using Dash 60s to start engines on the F-4Es. They still were able to be airborne within five minutes of the Klaxon going off.
First thing that comes to mind is the air force version does NOT have the manual air feed valve has something to do with the fact that it DOES have the start cartridges? I don't know why that would be off hand (room? Plumbing?) but it's an awful big coincidence. As always, thanks for sharing. PS: Can the engines cross bleed air so one running engine can start the other? If you covered that already I missed it.
How many Gallons does 1 or both Engines burn at Idle and at Flight Cruise? I know the J79 Burns 1.5 - 2 Gallons per Engine per Second in Full Afterburner.
Per the manual, each engine will consume between 800 - 1,400 lbs per hour at idle. At 6.7 lbs per gallon, that translates to 119 - 209 gallons per hour for one engine, or 238 - 418 gallons an hour with both engines idling. The variance is tied to the ambient air temperature. Cruise power is generally 4,000 - 8,000 lbs per hour, per engine. In gallons, that is about 1,194 - 2,388 gallons per hour (both engines combined). In afterburner (at sea level), each afterburner can consume between 19,800 and 27,600 lbs of fuel per hour. That's 2,955 - 4,119 gallons an hour per engine. One thing to also factor in is that the engine core is running at MIL power when the burner is engaged so the total fuel burn is engine core + afterburner. These J-79's sure are thirsty!
@@DieselThunderAviation Here is the math on gallons per minute for both engines combined. How many gallons per hour in MIL Power? Idle. 4-7 gallons per minute. Flight Cruise. 20-40 gallons per minute. At $5 per gallon, that's $100-200 per minute. Afterburner only, not including the engine at MIL Power. 49-68 gallons per minute.
My pleasure! And no, there's no capability for a cross bleed start. There are no valves or ducting between them for it. The only way to start one of these without a cartridge or a start cart is a windmill restart while airborne. Have to have plenty of altitude to pull that off though as the F-4 has an abysmal glide ratio.
@@DieselThunderAviation I never worked J79 and learned a lot watching your vids. surprised to learn it was not possible to cross bleed start and the starter actually turns the entire shaft and not through the gearbox.
Why does it say “AF 37 680” on the tail? I thought “37” was the fiscal year the aircraft was funded to be built. It can’t be 1937! Seems like it should be maybe 66 or 67?
63-7680. It's painted to resemble Robin Olds F-4C. Before the modern number system came into effect, going all the way back to WW2 only the last digit of the year the aircraft was ordered was used.
We do have com cords and headsets. The one wrinkle for our Phantom though is that she has a different connection than the other jets and has a unique cord just for her. One the latest startup we couldn't find the cord so we used hand signals as discussed in the safety brief beforehand.
@@DieselThunderAviation I volunteered at our airshow for ground crew and had to brush up on hand signals. Hadn't used them since a&p school 20 years ago.
Navy J79s did not have a starter like USAF J79s. The Navy J79s had their CSDs (Constant Speed Drive) mounted on the J79 accessory drive pad where the starter is attached on USAF versions. The "bullet" on the nose of Navy J79s was much smaller than USAF versions, since there wasn't anything inside of it. USAF versions had their CSDs mounted inside that nose bullet fairing.
The Navy "Huffer" pneumatic hose was attached through a small door, Door120, which was inset in engine bay Door 92L. Huffers put out a higher airflow mass than an AM32A-60, but the Navy jets could still be started with a Dash 60. It just took longer to spool the J79 up to 10 percent.
The Navy J79 engine used a "direct impingement" of the pneumatic air blowing directly on the turbine inside the J79.
I haven't seen a Navy manual showing how the pneumatic Huffer air was piped into the J79 to blow directly on the turbine. Hopefully some Navy or Marine could chime in and tell us about that.
I helped start a transient F-4J once at McChord AFB, it was far, far easier than starting the F-4Cs and Es that I worked on at Kelly AFB, George AFB and Ramstein AB. It's been well over 30 years since then, but if my memory serves, Door 120 had spring latches and not Camlocs, no big flatblade screwdriver required. Also, the Dash 60 air was not cut off and restarted when the pilot switched from starting #2 to #1. The ground crewman just switched on the external air once at the pilot's direction, then cut it off at the pilot's direction after both engines were running.
Ex-Kurnass structural/airframe mantainer here. If I'm not mistaken, the E would have one or two starter carts per jet in the HAS, I believe the carts were common to F-16s as well, they were squat and wide carts.
Door 92L seems familiar along with pannels 101 & 102. It's likely I closed out a few open items in the maintenance log book on 92 (loose solid rivits)
Also the Navy & Marine F-4s The reason you needed higher pressure air is it went straight to the turbine section where Air Force F-4s the starter was geared through the accessory drive gear box. With that said myself and an engine mechanic drove from Nellis Air Force Base outside of Las Vegas to Marine Corps air station El Toro to change out a starter that was blown up by the Marines because they hooked up their high-pressure air to the Air Force starter, and that didn’t work out at all someone else posted. You can start a navy marine aircraft with it - 60. It’s just gonna take a while to spool, but don’t start an Air Force navy Marine Corps air starter
@@remylopez4821💯
Hi Ed. Thanks very much for the kindness of responding to my comment. We (followers) don't have that opportunity as often, which is understandable due to the number of comments you obviously receive. To have the honour of being your comment answered is a real treat. Thanks very much, sir. Good winds and happy landings from Portugal 🇵🇹
Unhitching that unit from the tug was a real ball buster for the new guys!
F15 crew chief 1990-1996. This video was a nice trip down memory lane.
Early morning, 1985 (or so) at Bergstrom. (Long before it became an airport.) It was a bit cooler than normal, and our -60 would not turn over. Two of us rocked it back and forth. Big BOOM, large flame shot up, we scattered! One guy did a loop and shut it off, virtually "on the run".
We didnt do THAT again .....
Talk about a hot start!
It is this sort of educational content that I find really interesting on this channel. I hope you can continue to provide more like it in the future.
Got to do many "lauch assist" on F-4Es!
When I got to Seymour Johnson in 83, they had stopped cart starting because of a fire. They recontinued a few years later! It was great after doing an Integrated Combat Turn to watch them cart start! I've also got to watch this done on F-111s, great stuff!
"Love the smell of Cart Starting in the morning!"
I worked F-105 F&Gs at Korat. We rarely got -60s, used MD-3s for ground power. F-4Es grabbed every -60. We used starter cartridges exclusively. No problem with J-75s.
I love the F4 Phantom. Used to enjoy watching them flying when I was a kid.
It's very nice to see a jet I crewed in 1966-70 still alive. One of my other jets was 63-7463 that Steve Ritchie has some fun with. Thanks.
Turney Turbines on Phoenix made those start gens.
Thanks Diesel for the details. Can't imagine which decisions must have been made to implement a different start system than in Navy jets. Or maybe due to the already available starter carts having different pressure outputs. And yes, that Luftwaffe cartridge start video is awesome. Also the smoky engine runup.
My pleasure! Like to think the Air Force would have kept the original system, had they not wanted the fast start capability needed for a scramble/alert takeoff. Adding the starter there also moved the generator up to the nose of the engine.
USAF F-4, NAVY F-4...Same only different, love that J-79!
Dear Sir:
Thank you very, very much for this inside look at an air start cart!
The first fighter a/c that I saw up close were transient CF-5s from CFB Cold Lake, Alberta. They would come down to Calgary where I lived needing fuel or just a different place to fly to.
I was mesmerized as a boy watching the civvy techs scurrying underneath the rear of the a/c. I had the basic idea, but an add on for me was that once this cart was fired up to feed air to the J-85, I could always wait for the distinct red, rotary beacon light in the CF-5's upper vertical tail to start flashing when the engine lit off. Then I KNEW that this little beauty was definitely alive and going flying!
Probably very similar to the USAF T-38 series. But still not sure if there was a "switch" to divert compressor air to the #2 engine, or if the hose itself had to be physically switched for #2?
I’m sure that you have many T-38 maintenance folks who could start a Talon with their eyes closed.
I am going to watch your video again on this part of the amazingly complex world of the Phantom.
I also wonder if anyone would like to discuss the derogatory name of "Double Ugly" for the F-4?
What a beautiful and incredible sight for the eyes and all other senses. Seeing it up close for the first time was jaw dropping. Those HUGE exhaust nozzles, and the size of the vertical tail and all moving stabs!
AND watch HER go!
All the Best!🇨🇦🍺
Great content. Great to learn new details even after all these years.
Navy/MC starting air blew across the exhaust rotors to spin up the engines, so there was no need for an exhaust door. And why it had a selector switch. Having a starting system that could catch on fire is not good for carrier operations.
I'm learning a lot about my favorite war machine, man. Thanks.
Btw, I might be wrong, but I think the smoke generated by the cartridges was pretty toxic too.
My pleasure! I've heard that is stinks pretty bad because of sulfur based compounds. Not sure how toxic it is but I sure wouldn't want to breathe it for any length of time!
Awesome video! This is the stuff airplane geeks live for!
Don’t know the reason between services on the F-4, but on Air Force T-38’s they did have a valve to switch air between #1 & #2, only one connection for the -60. Engines were GE J85’s.
Your video brings back memories of working on F-4E's in 1982. The crew chief and I would have to idle the engine because the F-4 central air data computer has an input of bleed air off the engine. I had to change a CADC at least once a week. I remember the pressure hose would whip around more when it was turned on. I used to twirl my finger to let the crew chief know to turn on the exciter. If I were you, you should replace the whole pitot static system with a modern one if possible. Some instruments use 28VDC for power.
Great video! Thanks for showing us all that and please don't stop making this kind of content!
Yes. Not knowing, I “imagined” the -60 air was run straight into the combustion chamber (via a pipe) to pressurize it for ignition of injected fuel, in combination with electrical power running an electric starter. Such as electric motor gets engine turning to some low percentage RPM and then compressed air into the combustion chamber would assist ignition and on it would go from there. Now I know it’s simply an air motor that cranks the engine. So, in flight, if a flamed-out engine RPM fell below 10%, there would be no way to get it going again, right? …unless there was enough aircraft speed for the ram-air to windmill it back up to 10%…which I think I read somewhere was around 200-some knots?
So, now I have another question: how is the air motor connected to the engine shaft? Through some reduction gearbox and a pinion gear to a ring gear on a compressor section disk? Does it stay connected all the time? There must be some sort of clutch, otherwise engine 100% RPM would seemingly spin that air motor over 100,000 RPM.
I LOVE THIS SHIT!!!!
Me too! Makes me feel young again!
Great Video, Man! It's Cool To Think Everything You Just Explained Happened In A Few Seconds During The Squadron Scramble You Mentioned. Thank You. (Like #156)
Fantastic video, I love this in-depth look at the technical side of the aircraft, thanks a lot for recording this :)
I really enjoy this type of video!
Glad you liked it, am planning on more of these in the future!
Appreciate you making the video today it was interesting.
Very well explained. Thank you.
Fantastic video! 💯💯💯 I'm going to archive this, just in case I ever need to start a J79. I probably won't but .... just in case
i love this stuff
We referred to them as the port engine and the starboard engine. F-4 4-ever. Fly Navy.
Cool. Cartridge start is also common on the B-52 for alert starts. ThT is something to see and hear. The Daily Aviation and Fluctus channels have these a lot. Currently the F-22 uses a semi cart start.
There use to be a electric drive motor on -60s. That feature went away after many accidents and from what I heard some -60 races...... just can't crew chief's anywhere
It’s like the MD-3 power units had the drive but supposedly someone ran themselves over lol
Sounds relatable. The squadron crews were borderline certifiable. Too many J-79 fumes.
@@trespire hell we on the line aren’t exactly normal lol
That was pretty cool. Was wondering if they left the cartridge in place after startup or if it was removed. Was also surprised at the size. The only cartridge starter I've ever seen close up was in the old Jimmy Stewart movie "Flight Of The Phoenix", and they looked like shotgun shells. Be that as it may, you showed us many times the fitting for the installing the cartridge on the engine, but was a big vague on how it worked. I thought it was a fitting for a breach mechanism that you then inserted the cartridges into to fire. I also figured they left the cartridge on after firing to seal the system to keep air from escaping, and to keep FOD being ingested though the starter mechanism.
After the starter is fired, does the crew have to put a plate or a seal of the cartridge starter fitting to keep from ingesting FOD?
This is great stuff !
Remember the start cart smell, glory days!
israeli F4s had start cartridges too.
Interesting that the engines don't have the ability to start each other; would save start cart handling time + it could add an in-flight restart capability maybe? Great video!
Thanks! Cross bleed starting would have been a neat capability, don't think a lot of fighters have that though.
Great info as always, that German video was awesome, talk about smoke! I don't think the Nav birds had the deflector door. Was it one cartridge per engine?
Thank you! And yes, ideally only one cartridge used per engine.
Several things about a cart start on the J-79-GE-15. Typically once a cart start was finished, you do not remove the cartridge. The canister was very hot. In peace time cart starts were not done unless you were in a combat readiness exercise. To prevent a hang start you would bend the tabs on the cartridge down around 30-45°. There was not a cable from the base of the canister. Continuity was done through the handle to ignite the cart. If you had a hot start then a secondary CC would monitor for fire through the auxiliary air door. To prevent any type of fire the area around the exhaust door was wiped down very well before the start. Also you hoped for a light breeze on a cart start. They stink. As for the question about the serial numbers. Your F-4 is a 1963 model, hence your serial number is 63-7680 (C-model) 64 C-model start out 64-0XXX. All C-models. AF only had a few D-models. I crewed several C-models. My last one was 64-0660 which is now a static display at Niagara Falls International airport.
@@jimpemberton5971 actually the Collings Foundation Phantom is F-4D 65-0749, but it's painted to represent F-4C 63-7680 as it was when Robin Olds flew it for one of his MiG kills during the Vietnam conflict.
Correct! 63-7680 was the jet that he flew for Operation Bolo and was an F-4C. If I have the history of that aircraft correct, it was lost to anti-aircraft fire in November of 1967. Someone else answered this in that the Air Force painted on the last five digits of the serial number and changed it either late 60's or early 70's to using the year ordered and the last three digits. Appreciate the details on the cartridges!
@DieselThunderAviation Now do a video on the history of starting USAF jet aircraft. Do a comparison on how these aircraft were started:
F-80/T-33 & their J33 engine.
F-86 & B-47 and their J47 engine.
F-100, F-101 & F-102 and their J57 engine. Was it any different than starting the J57s on a B-52?
How about the starting of the J79’s on the B-58 Hustler?
Then the F-105’s & F-106’s J75 engine.
How about the A-7D’s TF41?
Have you heard of Agentjayz? He has done a couple rebuild series on a few J-79's (Including short pedal J-79's like yours) and has access to the different variants S&S turbines uses for parts. Its worth shooting him an email or mention to explain.
Sure have, he has a great channel! He's even commented here!
Another thing about the cart is it smelled like rotten eggs!
Cart start for ZULU and VICTOR ALERT!
After several aircraft fires due to misfiring cartridges, USAFE quit using cart starts at QRA/Zulu. By 1983 when I was assigned to the 526 AMU at Ramstein, QRA was using Dash 60s to start engines on the F-4Es. They still were able to be airborne within five minutes of the Klaxon going off.
First thing that comes to mind is the air force version does NOT have the manual air feed valve has something to do with the fact that it DOES have the start cartridges? I don't know why that would be off hand (room? Plumbing?) but it's an awful big coincidence. As always, thanks for sharing. PS: Can the engines cross bleed air so one running engine can start the other? If you covered that already I missed it.
@@fsj197811 there is no crossbleed for engine starting on any version of the F-4 that I ever heard of.
@@scottwilson8105 Thanks for the reply. I thought there might not be because of added weight and space both of which are at a premium on a fighter.
How many Gallons does 1 or both Engines burn at Idle and at Flight Cruise? I know the J79 Burns 1.5 - 2 Gallons per Engine per Second in Full Afterburner.
Per the manual, each engine will consume between 800 - 1,400 lbs per hour at idle. At 6.7 lbs per gallon, that translates to 119 - 209 gallons per hour for one engine, or 238 - 418 gallons an hour with both engines idling. The variance is tied to the ambient air temperature. Cruise power is generally 4,000 - 8,000 lbs per hour, per engine. In gallons, that is about 1,194 - 2,388 gallons per hour (both engines combined).
In afterburner (at sea level), each afterburner can consume between 19,800 and 27,600 lbs of fuel per hour. That's 2,955 - 4,119 gallons an hour per engine. One thing to also factor in is that the engine core is running at MIL power when the burner is engaged so the total fuel burn is engine core + afterburner. These J-79's sure are thirsty!
@@DieselThunderAviation Thankyou for the information.
@@DieselThunderAviation Here is the math on gallons per minute for both engines combined. How many gallons per hour in MIL Power?
Idle. 4-7 gallons per minute.
Flight Cruise. 20-40 gallons per minute. At $5 per gallon, that's $100-200 per minute.
Afterburner only, not including the engine at MIL Power. 49-68 gallons per minute.
Thx for the explanation of cartridge start. Was it not possible to start the other engine with compressor bleed air?
My pleasure! And no, there's no capability for a cross bleed start. There are no valves or ducting between them for it. The only way to start one of these without a cartridge or a start cart is a windmill restart while airborne. Have to have plenty of altitude to pull that off though as the F-4 has an abysmal glide ratio.
@@DieselThunderAviation I never worked J79 and learned a lot watching your vids. surprised to learn it was not possible to cross bleed start and the starter actually turns the entire shaft and not through the gearbox.
Why does it say “AF 37 680” on the tail? I thought “37” was the fiscal year the aircraft was funded to be built. It can’t be 1937! Seems like it should be maybe 66 or 67?
63-7680. It's painted to resemble Robin Olds F-4C. Before the modern number system came into effect, going all the way back to WW2 only the last digit of the year the aircraft was ordered was used.
@@baileyparadis1815 Ah, ok. Thanks!
Also. Do you guys not have headsets and com cords? Or you you just like to use hand signals
We do have com cords and headsets. The one wrinkle for our Phantom though is that she has a different connection than the other jets and has a unique cord just for her. One the latest startup we couldn't find the cord so we used hand signals as discussed in the safety brief beforehand.
@@DieselThunderAviation I volunteered at our airshow for ground crew and had to brush up on hand signals. Hadn't used them since a&p school 20 years ago.
@@DieselThunderAviation50 years later, hand signals are still entrenched in my soul.