the 23% increase in mass will not result in a 23% increase in height. Due to the square-cube-law the volume (and therefore the mass) increases in a cubic ratio to the side lengths. Its closer to 7% (as 1.07 x 1.07 x 1.07 ~= 1.23)
Mostly agree, but that's still ignoring other variables like gravity and gluten strength, I think the relative factor is likely less than 7%, but regardless I support the conclusion
One way for trying to improve your whole wheat bread is by autolyzing it for a much longer time than you usually would with your normal bread so that the bread is elastic. However I do not know how far you should take the autolyse so maybe you can make a video on how long you can autolyse whole wheat hand how does it affect the bread?
Interesting, i used this method yesterday. 475 to start and then down to 425F. I leave it covered for 20-25 minutes. After 15 minutes or so the starch has “gelatinized” and the dough won’t rise more. Baking panettone you use a much lower temperature to allow maximum oven spring. Keep up the good work H...
I guess it depends A LOT on the type of cooking vessel you use. And of course, your oven (where the heating elements are, how insulated it is etc.) I have a really cheap electric oven and bake great bread, but I had to experiment a lot. Here are my results if you want (I know you like cheap methods): - I use a Tempered Glass Bowl (similar shape and size to challenger pan). Don't be afraid of the heat, all tempered glass is rated to Minimum of 250 Celsius. I usually go for 1.1 - 1.3 kg Bread. - The electrical resistances in my oven are visible (they radiate direct heat towards the transparent bowl). This cooked the crust much faster than I wanted (interior was still raw) - To TOTALLY bypass this, I created 2 sheets of Aluminum Foil (like two sheets of paper). Folded a foil in half so it's double, then folded it at the ends so it remains stiff (did this 2 times to have 2 double ply foils) - So now, before placing my Bowl with the bread in the oven, I use one sheet as a carpet underneath and one as a ceiling (sliding it above). - I have created a cheap $10 Challenger Pan that has the benefit of being transparent so that you can see inside. - Here is how I bake a 1.1-1.3 kg Dough: 30min With Aluminum Carpet and Ceiling (bowl Covered) - 230-240 C, then 7-10 mins With Aluminum removed from both top and bottom (but still keep the bowl Covered and the steam inside - I don't open it) - 230 C, Then I remove the lid and leave the Bread uncovered for another 7-10 mins depending on preference - 230 C. -> So it's 3 steps instead of 2, but the fact that it's transparent is really nice. Also, I was aware that placing what is basically a mirror may reflect unwanted radiation from directly hitting the bread, but it surprised me HOW MUCH of a difference a tiny strip of Aluminum could accomplish. So now the bread is cooked only with "indirect" heat, as opposed to radiation directly hitting the crust. I really wanted to share this, hope it helps people. You won't be disappointed :) (note, for your smaller loafs, like 666 lol :P you may want to cut back on my numbers)
Such a great video! I have a loaf I'm about to put in and I will try it at the higher temp, then lower for the second half. One suggestion, if I may: It would have been helpful for me if you would have repeated the temperatures each baked during the video. I had to rewind to a certain point and just catch it when you were cutting open the breads to know exactly what temperatures you used 😁
oven temperature is a critical factor in ovenspring. we whant the ear grows in a pace that permites the crust to open, them the co2 will find his way. other key factor is shaping the dough :)
I did an interesting experiment yesterday also involving two different temperatures. On the first I preheated to 450 and then turned down to 400 after placing loaf in over. On the second, I preheated to 500 and turned down to 450 when entering the second loaf. Result? The 500 degree loaf had a noticeably better crumb structure than the first and better oven spring as well. Nice experiments you are doing, however!
I love your experiments. You could do another experiment using different temperatures, like 250, 230, 210, 190, 170 and see what differences there are in the bread. All the best!!
If I've added things to my loaf (nuts, fruit, cheese) I drop the temperature when I pop the roasting pan I use as a lid, because if I leave it up around 450F (sorry, my oven is old and only has Farenheit and also doesn't give me the temp it's set for, I set it around 350F then check the temp on an oven thermometer just after the thermostat clicks off), things burn once I uncover it. I've also been experimenting with using longer time under cover (30 min of a 40 min bake) to get a slightly softer crust that doesn't wreck my mouth, but I think it keeps better if I do 20 min covered. Thank you for the comments on the darker bottom crust with high heat, I also tend to get really dark, almost burned bottom crusts if I start any hotter than 450F (because old oven temperature setting isn't always consistent and sometimes I'm impatient and want to get the loaf in NOW, not wait for it to cool 20 degrees).
I think there are too many other variables for the math to work out that directly, too many confounding variables. BUT since the height was the exact same AND you shaped thale larger one more too, I think it's safe to say your conclusion is justified. I may be biased, though, because your procedure for the changing temperature loaf is identical to what I already do, to the degree and minute.
Your suggestions of pre-heating with the Dutch oven inside to a very high heat and also quirting plenty of water on the dough had a really positive effect in my last bake. The dough was so sticky at 65% hydration, I thought it might never rise and I didn't take a fermentation sample to measure either. Yet it rose very well! Still no ear of wheat, but I am working on that. You don't use a fan assisted oven do you? I do (its electrolux) and it means I have to lower any suggested baking temperature by 20 degrees C, so 210 deg in the case of your constant temp bake here. I suppose it means I have a higher max temp for preheating haha.
Hi Hendrik, did you ever consider checking if refreshing the starter can be replaced with feeding at higher ratio but just once? My standard procedure is to take the Sourdough starter out of the fridge, feed with 1:5:5 ratio, once doubled in size feed again in the same ratio and use it for the dough. Did you ever try to bake a successful loaf setting up the starter only once? I was always afraid to try but it would make my life easier if it worked. More convenient to set once and wait longer than set twice, especially if you want to bake it for a supper 😊
Hey Krzysztof. Interesting idea. I don't think that would work. Reason being - over time the flour degrades. This is happening as your flour is breaking down the moment your flour is in contact with water. Maybe you could refresh it and keep it in the fridge. Interesting idea 🤓. I need to try this.
@@the_bread_code Well, but putting starter in the fridge would stop the activity od yeast at some point. Cold starter would impact duration of the bulk rise ;) Still.. If you are brave enough... 😜
What about leaving it on 250 degrees for the whole time? Does the inside of the dutch oven really cool down by 20 degrees over just 10 minutes? Isn’t it one of the advantages that it isolates against temperature fluctuations? Personally I just put my oven on full power (might be 270 degrees, I don’t know) and leave the bread in the dutch oven for a bit more than half an hour. Comes out perfectly every time! I am baking again tomorrow, maybe I can try to put my temperature probe inside the dutch oven and test how the outside temperature affects the temperature inside.
I put my oven on full power and preheated the dutch oven for 45 minutes. After I put the bread in, the temperature probe (a Meater+ that measures core temp and ambient temp) climbed from 110 up to 180 degrees until 20 minutes in. It probably starts out that low because the inside of the dutch oven cools down by taking it out for 1 minute to put the bread in and I also always pour in quite a lot of boiling water to get maximum steam and that cools it down to 100 degrees. Anyway, after 20 minutes I reduced the oven from full power to 200 degrees without taking it out or opening it and the temperature climb slowed down (not dropping, just rising much slower) for 8 minutes or so before it started climbing again towards 200 degrees. After a total of 40 minutes it reached around 190 degrees. My conclusion: With the cold dough and the boiling water the dutch oven starts out at 110 degrees and takes the whole 40 minutes of the baking to reach not even 200 degrees. Turning your oven down only slows the climb a bit, but not in a major way. It is not that the inside is 250 degrees at first and then drops to 230 degrees, but it is never that high at all. Also, from the video I think there was no statistically relevant difference between the breads, they were both fantastic! You would probably have to repeat the experiment 10 times to really know (I never let the steam out mid-baking because I prefer a softer crust and I don't like too dark almost burned bread. For my taste, yours were just a bit too dark).
Excellent point. I need to try this. I have recently experimented and figured that my dutch oven was sometimes a little too hot. 250°C is definitely the max or else my crust develops too quickly.
Moin! I think that due to the gravity, the softness of the dough, a larger bread will grow less vertically and more horizontally. Also the fact that the bread sucks more heat from the cooking vessel/baking steel and thus cools it down more at least the first minutes of the cooking, probably have an impact. At least I have noticed this in my own baking; if one bread is clearly larger than the other, it gets wider, not higher. By the way, I have recently started to spray water generously only in the scorings of the bread initially, and keep a bowl of boiling water at the bottom of the oven to add some steam (I mainly cook on a pan resembling a baking steel). My theory is that if the sides of the bread stays wet, the bread will more easily grow in the horizontal direction. My loafs are generally 900-1000g and never turn out as "round" as yours and others do. There's ingredients for a test too; see how much impact the mass of the dough (and probably dough height prior to cooking) has on the outcome. There are plenty of variables here to play with... :-)
Very nice . I started to Love your Channel! I love your concept of experimenting a lot to get the best results. Also your Denglisch is so symphatic. Grüße aus dem schönen Eichstätt. ✌️
@@mrtech2259 After 20 minutes at 500°F, hasn't your loaf already risen as much as it can? Isn't the remaining 20 minutes to just complete the baking? I bake mine in my home oven (maybe professional ovens are different?) at 500°F in a covered pot for 30 minutes, then remove the lid and bake another 15 minutes to complete the bake, still at 500°F. Do you think I should lower my temperature to 450°F? I'm happy with my loaves, but maybe they could be even better?
@@bonnieantonini Yes indeed it can't continue rising for ever, as soon the crust starts forming- rising is over. You uncover because you want to get nice collor. You don't HAVE TO lower the oven if you are happy with your bread, reason to lower is because 500 will darken it too fast from the outside while the inside still needs some more baking. (I personally like my bread very well done, so I bake my loaves 1 hour (20 minutes covered @500, 40 minutes uncovered @450).
I'd be interested in comparing hand-kneading vs. machine-kneading bread, maybe you can do something with that in the future? Thanks and keep up the great content!
QUESTION: I’ve seen both of your videos of making better oven spring. Comparing with the video “don’t make this stupid mistake”; I came up with a conclusion that I should take your advice about oven spring from that video rather than this because i thought maybe you used the pizza pan(??) which resulted to having lower oven temperature than 250.. i thought of this because your experiment about the pizza pan(?)was one month after this experiment. I wanted to confirm if my hypothesis is correct.. im learning a lot! thanks a lot!!
Wait. Your question didn't ask which gives better oven spring. If that was the question I would have voted it doesn't matter. You just asked which makes better bread. Definitely need a redo on that experiment and make sure they are both the same weight! :)
Very interesting! But I wouldn't expect them to have the same shape, because they're different sizes. Imagine a HUGE loaf - it would rise only a small amount relative to its large base, because the gluten could not support it in the middle. On the other hand, a tiny loaf would be like a hemisphere or even taller. Perhaps 7.2cm is the height of all loaves between 400g and 1000g??
If you make two doughs from the start, then no dividing and measuring necessary. Of course, this also mean you have to be super precise in having the same ingredients in each dough and handle them precisely the same. Regarding the weight of the bread changing from 666 grams to 663 or something, this might also happen during the mixing. At least on my weight I always lift up the measuring cup from the weight and put it down again, to get a more accurate measure. If you are making one bread and dividing this in two after the bulk rise, then being this precise with the initial ingredients doesn't matter for what you are measuring, but it might matter if you are making two doughs simultaneously to compare.
Hey, great experiment. I have also been baking my bread at 250 to got down to 210 in the second part of the bake. That is only because I was taught like that, but as far as I know you could even go hotter at first, if your over allows it of course (mine sure doesn't). If you're looking for experiments, then I'm curious about having the dough covered in flour VS not covered in flour before baking. I know the blister mostly appear when not, but I'm wondering if that change anything to the oven spring. Same experiment with the water you spray at the start of the bake. I do that too so my crumb doesn't harden and doesn't stop the spring, but is it actually doing anything ? I don't know. You could also make a video about inclusions... how to include nuts, seeds, etc. and the best way to do it and how not to do it. Also how much can be added before it really destabilise the dough.
How moist is okay for the crumb? I have started baking my dough longer and lowering the temperature three times to allow the bread to bake longer to reduce the moisture. Thank you.
I was thinking about controlling bulkfermentation by putting a small piece of dough in a small container. I always check how much it rises by checking the whole dough. Because a small piece should in my mind theoreticly ferment faster than the main dough cos a small piece warms up faster cos of the smaller mass? But it can be good to avoid overfermentation cis a small piece are fasrer to ferment than the maindough. Just speculation from my side. I may be compleatly wrong. They may fernent at equal speed?
Thank you, great experiment! Loved the stream with the foodgeek as well today! In terms of another video. Baking all the way in the covered dutch oven. My friend bakes bread Vermont from Hamelmans book(as you are probably familiar with it) he doesn't remove the lid till he finishes baking. Insane opening of the bread but lacking on colurs in my opinion. Does letting the steam escape mid bake would affect openining of the crumb? Love your content man! Very informative thank you very much.
I noticed that, when you took the temperature of the Challenger pan, it was 260C which was the temperature of the oven. I found that, using a Neff oven with bottom heat and fan set to 260C (and confirmed by the oven thermometer) the pan was only at around 215C after an hour. Do you use top and bottom heat rather than fan and bottom? (The Neff maximum fan temperature is 200C which is why I don't use the fan alone.)
I just "discovered" something (strong word, I'm sure many people do this :P) Use Olive oil while handling the dough and when using containers. Olive Oil doesn't ruin the dough, the flavor or do anything negative. Some doughs even have Olive Oil in the recipe.... - So...When using your plastic utensils, rub some oil on them, when using your fingers get some oil on them. And most importantly: When using a container for bulk, rub the bottom with Olive Oil. Just a few drops are enough. Total added to the dough when it's done is like 5-10 grams, so nothing to fear. - It's better than just wetting your hands, because olive oil remains on your hands longer so you don't have to constantly wet them. After I've started using this method I never make bread without it. Makes life much easier. Maybe even helps with more of an open crumb since handling will be more gentle on the dough (just guessing)
As always, I learn so much watching your videos--thank you! Now a question--my bread is getting good spring and open crumb, but my husband thinks it's a bit "gummy" or too moist compared to the sourdough he buys at the store (he esp. likes La Brea we can get here in San Diego). I tried increasing the oven temperature to 475 F, but the bottom crust was too done and the bread still was more moist than he likes. My bulk fermentation and proofing I think are fine. And I leave the bread for 24 hours before slicing. Any suggestions?
Hey Peg. Oh - he doesn't like the wet crumb? Then try going for lower hydration :-). I'd say roughly 65% or so should make a fairly dry crumb. But then however the bread also doesn't stay good as long. Please let me know if it helps. Cheers!
@@the_bread_code Hi Hendrick--I reduced hydration to 60% (I forgot you said 65%) and the dough was hard to work with and I couldn't tell as easily when it was ready to coil fold (I didn't use your hack). The bread got good oven spring but I had a few large holes and the texture was denser than I wanted. I'm next going to try bread flour instead of whole wheat in my starter, and no additional whole wheat in the flour mix. Always learning, thanks to you!
Hello. I watched your video regarding temperatures in the oven and saw you ended up favouring 230c. I noted you cooked around 25 minutes in a Dutch oven after spritzing and with the lid on. I DIDN'T get how much longer you cooked it after that and whether it was still lid on or lid off. Can you explain pl.
These are some really close temperatures for such an experiment I expected a 280/300 start against 230 stable But 250 is a classic "max" for home ovens, so perhaps it's your case Interesting nonetheless.
I hope that was the left hand bread but I wasn't paying close attention, just when i heard 666 and then later on he said the left hand bread so I hope its the same loaf
I tried to prepare your recommended sour dough starter (rye) and it didn't work, tried is 3 times. Although we are in the dead of winter here in arctic MN, our house temp is a steady 72F and I've been keeping it close to the stove where it gets just a little warmer, and still does not work. Any advice!
Can you clarify exactly the definition of "starter %age" or "inoculation%". In your recipe (800g flour, 160g starter) you refer this as being as being 20%. However, the spreadsheet you refer to with the timings defines the %age thus" Inoculation is the percentage of fermented flour to total flour in the dough or preferment when it is first mixed" - I read this as approx 10% (starter flour/total flour) . Can you comment ?! Thanks - very good videos.
Starter % is the same as inoculation. If you use 20g starter for 100g flour or 100g starter for a loaf that calls for 500g flour your inoculation percentage is 20%. If you use 50g of starter in the 500g flour loaf it is 10% inoculation. That is because 10% bakers percentage of the flour is already fermented before even mixing the dough. People use bakers percentage because you would have to recalculate awkward numbers if you didn’t. For example, 100g starter per 500g flour is 20% inoculation bakers %. But it’s actually 100g/600g = 16.66% because 100g starter adds to the total. It can be even more complicated if your 100g starter is actually 50g water and 50g flour meaning that 50g flour is pre fermented out of 500g new and therefore 50/(500+50) = 50/550 = 9% net inoculation by total mass and adjusted ratios. And if your starter is actually 80% hydration stiff for lasting overnight it could be 1.8S = 100 | S (starter flour) = 6% net prefermented flour or something like that. TLDR: use bakers percentage and every ingredient is compared only to the amount of flour you use in your recipe. Start from the intended flour amount and work backwards for every ingredient unless you accidentally spill too much water and have to recalculate how much extra flour to add afterwards. One time I spilled a bunch of salt and had to make a huge batch at the right hydration but I digress. For a basic recipe it would be 20% inoculation 2% salt 70% hydration = 500g flour + 100g starter + 350g water + 10g salt. Sorry even the tldr was long but once you understand bakers percentage you can scale any recipe on the entire internet up or down as you please.
@@justryan2070 My point is that the behavior of a bread dough (eg fermentation times) depends far more on the flour (fermented) content of the starter and not the total wet weight (of the starter). I believe the the fermentation times table/spreadsheet posted previously by Herr Bread Code refers to fermented/new flour as "Inoculation" . So, for his experiment above, I believe this is 10% +/-. I fully understand bakers math. Two starters with the same wet weight but different hydration ratios (ie differing flour %) will produced different fermentation times - that's all - no biggee.
Howdy. So how would this work without a dutch oven? When I open my oven door I lose 150-200F and it takes 5 minutes to recover. I try to go as fast as I can. BTW I just finished baking 4 loaves using your master class method and they are by far the best loaves I have ever baked. Very much appreciate your work.
Wait, what?!?! Are you saying Hendrix that you’re not stretching, folding, or kneading, nothing in that 12 hours? If that’s what you’re saying It would be a game changer for me... oops, just read the description, sorry got excited to watch first. 🤓
After 25 minutes :-). One was steady 230°C for 45 minutes, the other one I lowered the temp from 250°C to 230°C after 25 minutes. It then baked another 15 minutes if I recall until the crust had the desired color.
MOIN! Ich wohne ja auch in Hamburg. Wo kaufst du dein Mehl? Ich finde die Auswahl in Edeka nicht so gut. Edit: Zweite Frage, was heisst eigentlich Bread Flour auf Deutsch, ich habe so viel verschiedne Meinungen gelesen. Danke!!
Moin Katie. You can find an article on the German flour here: blog.the-bread-code.io/tutorial/2020/08/20/sourdough-flour-in-germany.html. Hope it helps.
Too many confounding variables, 7% is deep in the margin of error. We need a larger sample size; why don't we all do a similar experiment? This way we can avoid the issue with different ovens, different temperature ranges, shaping and proofing issues, etc? Personally, I usually do high to low on a baking steel with a steam bath and an inverted baking sheet hood, 300C 8 min, 220C 8 min, remove steam and cover and continue untill done. In general, high to low is relevant when the "high" is too hot for a continuous bake. There must be a cutoff from which it is a disadvantage, based on bulk size and max temp, would not start with a blistering pizza oven with a giant loaf...
Moin Daniel. You are right, thanks for the great comment. I need to give this another go. I tested it again with a few different temperatures. Stay tuned!
Hello there, I bought mine from this website: backmann24.de/98/teigschaber/teigabstecher-mit-griffleiste-edelstahl I think it's the shop of the company which actually produces them. They are from Germany and ship internationally, however it's a bit expensive.
Ahhh, come on, you can do better. Should have equalized your loaves. And when you failed, okay, everyone makes mistakes. The solution is easy peasy. Just do it right next time. And publish then publish. But don't waste my time watching you trying to "equalize" . . . and doing it badly. Like your channel, but this is not up to your usual standard.
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the 23% increase in mass will not result in a 23% increase in height. Due to the square-cube-law the volume (and therefore the mass) increases in a cubic ratio to the side lengths.
Its closer to 7% (as 1.07 x 1.07 x 1.07 ~= 1.23)
😂 that's why I love all of you. Awesome and thanks for this amazing comment 🙏🏻.
Yes I was just gonna comment that! Should use ~7% to normalize.
Exactly!
Mostly agree, but that's still ignoring other variables like gravity and gluten strength, I think the relative factor is likely less than 7%, but regardless I support the conclusion
Came here to say this too! Good experiment though.
One way for trying to improve your whole wheat bread is by autolyzing it for a much longer time than you usually would with your normal bread so that the bread is elastic. However I do not know how far you should take the autolyse so maybe you can make a video on how long you can autolyse whole wheat hand how does it affect the bread?
Interesting, i used this method yesterday. 475 to start and then down to 425F. I leave it covered for 20-25 minutes. After 15 minutes or so the starch has “gelatinized” and the dough won’t rise more. Baking panettone you use a much lower temperature to allow maximum oven spring. Keep up the good work H...
I guess it depends A LOT on the type of cooking vessel you use. And of course, your oven (where the heating elements are, how insulated it is etc.)
I have a really cheap electric oven and bake great bread, but I had to experiment a lot. Here are my results if you want (I know you like cheap methods):
- I use a Tempered Glass Bowl (similar shape and size to challenger pan). Don't be afraid of the heat, all tempered glass is rated to Minimum of 250 Celsius. I usually go for 1.1 - 1.3 kg Bread.
- The electrical resistances in my oven are visible (they radiate direct heat towards the transparent bowl). This cooked the crust much faster than I wanted (interior was still raw)
- To TOTALLY bypass this, I created 2 sheets of Aluminum Foil (like two sheets of paper). Folded a foil in half so it's double, then folded it at the ends so it remains stiff (did this 2 times to have 2 double ply foils)
- So now, before placing my Bowl with the bread in the oven, I use one sheet as a carpet underneath and one as a ceiling (sliding it above).
- I have created a cheap $10 Challenger Pan that has the benefit of being transparent so that you can see inside.
- Here is how I bake a 1.1-1.3 kg Dough: 30min With Aluminum Carpet and Ceiling (bowl Covered) - 230-240 C, then 7-10 mins With Aluminum removed from both top and bottom (but still keep the bowl Covered and the steam inside - I don't open it) - 230 C, Then I remove the lid and leave the Bread uncovered for another 7-10 mins depending on preference - 230 C.
-> So it's 3 steps instead of 2, but the fact that it's transparent is really nice. Also, I was aware that placing what is basically a mirror may reflect unwanted radiation from directly hitting the bread, but it surprised me HOW MUCH of a difference a tiny strip of Aluminum could accomplish. So now the bread is cooked only with "indirect" heat, as opposed to radiation directly hitting the crust.
I really wanted to share this, hope it helps people. You won't be disappointed :)
(note, for your smaller loafs, like 666 lol :P you may want to cut back on my numbers)
Gluten Tag! I have a loaf proofing right now of your “no knead” sourdough... this is great timing!
Such a great video! I have a loaf I'm about to put in and I will try it at the higher temp, then lower for the second half. One suggestion, if I may: It would have been helpful for me if you would have repeated the temperatures each baked during the video. I had to rewind to a certain point and just catch it when you were cutting open the breads to know exactly what temperatures you used 😁
Good to know. I have a 'no knead' in the fridge right now for baking in the morning 👍
oven temperature is a critical factor in ovenspring. we whant the ear grows in a pace that permites the crust to open, them the co2 will find his way.
other key factor is shaping the dough :)
I did an interesting experiment yesterday also involving two different temperatures. On the first I preheated to 450 and then turned down to 400 after placing loaf in over. On the second, I preheated to 500 and turned down to 450 when entering the second loaf.
Result? The 500 degree loaf had a noticeably better crumb structure than the first and better oven spring as well.
Nice experiments you are doing, however!
I love your experiments. You could do another experiment using different temperatures, like 250, 230, 210, 190, 170 and see what differences there are in the bread. All the best!!
Thanks for doing the experiment! It's instructive to see side by side.
To be more precise the two loafs should be baked at the same time, otherwise the second one has more time to rest and may skew the results.
If I've added things to my loaf (nuts, fruit, cheese) I drop the temperature when I pop the roasting pan I use as a lid, because if I leave it up around 450F (sorry, my oven is old and only has Farenheit and also doesn't give me the temp it's set for, I set it around 350F then check the temp on an oven thermometer just after the thermostat clicks off), things burn once I uncover it. I've also been experimenting with using longer time under cover (30 min of a 40 min bake) to get a slightly softer crust that doesn't wreck my mouth, but I think it keeps better if I do 20 min covered.
Thank you for the comments on the darker bottom crust with high heat, I also tend to get really dark, almost burned bottom crusts if I start any hotter than 450F (because old oven temperature setting isn't always consistent and sometimes I'm impatient and want to get the loaf in NOW, not wait for it to cool 20 degrees).
I think there are too many other variables for the math to work out that directly, too many confounding variables. BUT since the height was the exact same AND you shaped thale larger one more too, I think it's safe to say your conclusion is justified. I may be biased, though, because your procedure for the changing temperature loaf is identical to what I already do, to the degree and minute.
Agreed. It could have been more scientific. But holding it next to each other I think it definitely confirms the experiment 🙏
Your suggestions of pre-heating with the Dutch oven inside to a very high heat and also quirting plenty of water on the dough had a really positive effect in my last bake. The dough was so sticky at 65% hydration, I thought it might never rise and I didn't take a fermentation sample to measure either. Yet it rose very well! Still no ear of wheat, but I am working on that.
You don't use a fan assisted oven do you? I do (its electrolux) and it means I have to lower any suggested baking temperature by 20 degrees C, so 210 deg in the case of your constant temp bake here. I suppose it means I have a higher max temp for preheating haha.
Lol, editing mistake at 1:52 ?
Still a great video, as always! :D
Hi Hendrik, did you ever consider checking if refreshing the starter can be replaced with feeding at higher ratio but just once?
My standard procedure is to take the Sourdough starter out of the fridge, feed with 1:5:5 ratio, once doubled in size feed again in the same ratio and use it for the dough.
Did you ever try to bake a successful loaf setting up the starter only once?
I was always afraid to try but it would make my life easier if it worked. More convenient to set once and wait longer than set twice, especially if you want to bake it for a supper 😊
Hey Krzysztof. Interesting idea. I don't think that would work. Reason being - over time the flour degrades. This is happening as your flour is breaking down the moment your flour is in contact with water. Maybe you could refresh it and keep it in the fridge. Interesting idea 🤓. I need to try this.
@@the_bread_code Well, but putting starter in the fridge would stop the activity od yeast at some point. Cold starter would impact duration of the bulk rise ;)
Still.. If you are brave enough... 😜
What about leaving it on 250 degrees for the whole time? Does the inside of the dutch oven really cool down by 20 degrees over just 10 minutes? Isn’t it one of the advantages that it isolates against temperature fluctuations? Personally I just put my oven on full power (might be 270 degrees, I don’t know) and leave the bread in the dutch oven for a bit more than half an hour. Comes out perfectly every time! I am baking again tomorrow, maybe I can try to put my temperature probe inside the dutch oven and test how the outside temperature affects the temperature inside.
Same thought here. I do it the same as you.
I put my oven on full power and preheated the dutch oven for 45 minutes. After I put the bread in, the temperature probe (a Meater+ that measures core temp and ambient temp) climbed from 110 up to 180 degrees until 20 minutes in. It probably starts out that low because the inside of the dutch oven cools down by taking it out for 1 minute to put the bread in and I also always pour in quite a lot of boiling water to get maximum steam and that cools it down to 100 degrees. Anyway, after 20 minutes I reduced the oven from full power to 200 degrees without taking it out or opening it and the temperature climb slowed down (not dropping, just rising much slower) for 8 minutes or so before it started climbing again towards 200 degrees. After a total of 40 minutes it reached around 190 degrees. My conclusion: With the cold dough and the boiling water the dutch oven starts out at 110 degrees and takes the whole 40 minutes of the baking to reach not even 200 degrees. Turning your oven down only slows the climb a bit, but not in a major way. It is not that the inside is 250 degrees at first and then drops to 230 degrees, but it is never that high at all. Also, from the video I think there was no statistically relevant difference between the breads, they were both fantastic! You would probably have to repeat the experiment 10 times to really know (I never let the steam out mid-baking because I prefer a softer crust and I don't like too dark almost burned bread. For my taste, yours were just a bit too dark).
Excellent point. I need to try this. I have recently experimented and figured that my dutch oven was sometimes a little too hot. 250°C is definitely the max or else my crust develops too quickly.
Does your dutch oven cover fit "perfectly flat"? Mine rocks a little and I wonder if it lets the steam out.
@@JohnBerthoty , yes, my lid closes tightly and no steam comes out.
I bake on a silicone oven mat rather than directly on the dutch oven. I might try one vs the other to boost the bottom crust.
Moin! I think that due to the gravity, the softness of the dough, a larger bread will grow less vertically and more horizontally. Also the fact that the bread sucks more heat from the cooking vessel/baking steel and thus cools it down more at least the first minutes of the cooking, probably have an impact. At least I have noticed this in my own baking; if one bread is clearly larger than the other, it gets wider, not higher.
By the way, I have recently started to spray water generously only in the scorings of the bread initially, and keep a bowl of boiling water at the bottom of the oven to add some steam (I mainly cook on a pan resembling a baking steel). My theory is that if the sides of the bread stays wet, the bread will more easily grow in the horizontal direction. My loafs are generally 900-1000g and never turn out as "round" as yours and others do. There's ingredients for a test too; see how much impact the mass of the dough (and probably dough height prior to cooking) has on the outcome. There are plenty of variables here to play with... :-)
Interesting thoughts. Yep - thanks for sharing. I need to experiment some more on this!
Very nice . I started to Love your Channel! I love your concept of experimenting a lot to get the best results. Also your Denglisch is so symphatic. Grüße aus dem schönen Eichstätt. ✌️
I'm a professional baker and obviously higher temperature = better oven spring. Definitely.
Thanks for sharing 🙏🏻. What's your typical temperature to bake at?
@@the_bread_code I begin with 500f (260c) and after 20 minutes lower to 450f (230c). Btw I really like your videos.
@@mrtech2259 After 20 minutes at 500°F, hasn't your loaf already risen as much as it can? Isn't the remaining 20 minutes to just complete the baking? I bake mine in my home oven (maybe professional ovens are different?) at 500°F in a covered pot for 30 minutes, then remove the lid and bake another 15 minutes to complete the bake, still at 500°F. Do you think I should lower my temperature to 450°F? I'm happy with my loaves, but maybe they could be even better?
@@bonnieantonini
Yes indeed it can't continue rising for ever, as soon the crust starts forming- rising is over.
You uncover because you want to get nice collor.
You don't HAVE TO lower the oven if you are happy with your bread, reason to lower is because 500 will darken it too fast from the outside while the inside still needs some more baking. (I personally like my bread very well done, so I bake my loaves 1 hour (20 minutes covered @500, 40 minutes uncovered @450).
I'd be interested in comparing hand-kneading vs. machine-kneading bread, maybe you can do something with that in the future? Thanks and keep up the great content!
QUESTION: I’ve seen both of your videos of making better oven spring. Comparing with the video “don’t make this stupid mistake”; I came up with a conclusion that I should take your advice about oven spring from that video rather than this because i thought maybe you used the pizza pan(??) which resulted to having lower oven temperature than 250.. i thought of this because your experiment about the pizza pan(?)was one month after this experiment. I wanted to confirm if my hypothesis is correct.. im learning a lot! thanks a lot!!
Yes! Don't go as hot. I only learned that a little better.
Wait. Your question didn't ask which gives better oven spring. If that was the question I would have voted it doesn't matter. You just asked which makes better bread. Definitely need a redo on that experiment and make sure they are both the same weight! :)
Very interesting! But I wouldn't expect them to have the same shape, because they're different sizes. Imagine a HUGE loaf - it would rise only a small amount relative to its large base, because the gluten could not support it in the middle. On the other hand, a tiny loaf would be like a hemisphere or even taller.
Perhaps 7.2cm is the height of all loaves between 400g and 1000g??
If you make two doughs from the start, then no dividing and measuring necessary. Of course, this also mean you have to be super precise in having the same ingredients in each dough and handle them precisely the same.
Regarding the weight of the bread changing from 666 grams to 663 or something, this might also happen during the mixing. At least on my weight I always lift up the measuring cup from the weight and put it down again, to get a more accurate measure. If you are making one bread and dividing this in two after the bulk rise, then being this precise with the initial ingredients doesn't matter for what you are measuring, but it might matter if you are making two doughs simultaneously to compare.
Hey, great experiment. I have also been baking my bread at 250 to got down to 210 in the second part of the bake. That is only because I was taught like that, but as far as I know you could even go hotter at first, if your over allows it of course (mine sure doesn't).
If you're looking for experiments, then I'm curious about having the dough covered in flour VS not covered in flour before baking. I know the blister mostly appear when not, but I'm wondering if that change anything to the oven spring. Same experiment with the water you spray at the start of the bake. I do that too so my crumb doesn't harden and doesn't stop the spring, but is it actually doing anything ? I don't know.
You could also make a video about inclusions... how to include nuts, seeds, etc. and the best way to do it and how not to do it. Also how much can be added before it really destabilise the dough.
How moist is okay for the crumb? I have started baking my dough longer and lowering the temperature three times to allow the bread to bake longer to reduce the moisture. Thank you.
Depends on your taste I guess. I like it very moist :-)
How about if adding some seeds to the dough?
I was thinking about controlling bulkfermentation by putting a small piece of dough in a small container. I always check how much it rises by checking the whole dough. Because a small piece should in my mind theoreticly ferment faster than the main dough cos a small piece warms up faster cos of the smaller mass? But it can be good to avoid overfermentation cis a small piece are fasrer to ferment than the maindough. Just speculation from my side. I may be compleatly wrong. They may fernent at equal speed?
Thank you, great experiment! Loved the stream with the foodgeek as well today! In terms of another video. Baking all the way in the covered dutch oven. My friend bakes bread Vermont from Hamelmans book(as you are probably familiar with it) he doesn't remove the lid till he finishes baking. Insane opening of the bread but lacking on colurs in my opinion.
Does letting the steam escape mid bake would affect openining of the crumb?
Love your content man! Very informative thank you very much.
I noticed that, when you took the temperature of the Challenger pan, it was 260C which was the temperature of the oven. I found that, using a Neff oven with bottom heat and fan set to 260C (and confirmed by the oven thermometer) the pan was only at around 215C after an hour. Do you use top and bottom heat rather than fan and bottom? (The Neff maximum fan temperature is 200C which is why I don't use the fan alone.)
I just "discovered" something (strong word, I'm sure many people do this :P)
Use Olive oil while handling the dough and when using containers. Olive Oil doesn't ruin the dough, the flavor or do anything negative. Some doughs even have Olive Oil in the recipe....
- So...When using your plastic utensils, rub some oil on them, when using your fingers get some oil on them. And most importantly: When using a container for bulk, rub the bottom with Olive Oil. Just a few drops are enough. Total added to the dough when it's done is like 5-10 grams, so nothing to fear.
- It's better than just wetting your hands, because olive oil remains on your hands longer so you don't have to constantly wet them.
After I've started using this method I never make bread without it. Makes life much easier. Maybe even helps with more of an open crumb since handling will be more gentle on the dough (just guessing)
As always, I learn so much watching your videos--thank you! Now a question--my bread is getting good spring and open crumb, but my husband thinks it's a bit "gummy" or too moist compared to the sourdough he buys at the store (he esp. likes La Brea we can get here in San Diego). I tried increasing the oven temperature to 475 F, but the bottom crust was too done and the bread still was more moist than he likes. My bulk fermentation and proofing I think are fine. And I leave the bread for 24 hours before slicing. Any suggestions?
Hey Peg. Oh - he doesn't like the wet crumb? Then try going for lower hydration :-). I'd say roughly 65% or so should make a fairly dry crumb. But then however the bread also doesn't stay good as long. Please let me know if it helps. Cheers!
@@the_bread_code Thanks, Hendrick! I love the taste and moisture of the bread, but will try reducing hydration to see if that works for him.
@@the_bread_code Hi Hendrick--I reduced hydration to 60% (I forgot you said 65%) and the dough was hard to work with and I couldn't tell as easily when it was ready to coil fold (I didn't use your hack). The bread got good oven spring but I had a few large holes and the texture was denser than I wanted. I'm next going to try bread flour instead of whole wheat in my starter, and no additional whole wheat in the flour mix. Always learning, thanks to you!
Hello. I watched your video regarding temperatures in the oven and saw you ended up favouring 230c. I noted you cooked around 25 minutes in a Dutch oven after spritzing and with the lid on. I DIDN'T get how much longer you cooked it after that and whether it was still lid on or lid off. Can you explain pl.
These are some really close temperatures for such an experiment
I expected a 280/300 start against 230 stable
But 250 is a classic "max" for home ovens, so perhaps it's your case
Interesting nonetheless.
The "math" is irrelevant since the one preshaped more had smaller pockets which expanded less.
Interesting. Yep. That definitely needs to be taken into consideration as well 👍
The bread from hell 😂 burn it 😂
I hope that was the left hand bread but I wasn't paying close attention, just when i heard 666 and then later on he said the left hand bread so I hope its the same loaf
I tried to prepare your recommended sour dough starter (rye) and it didn't work, tried is 3 times. Although we are in the dead of winter here in arctic MN, our house temp is a steady 72F and I've been keeping it close to the stove where it gets just a little warmer, and still does not work. Any advice!
Can you clarify exactly the definition of "starter %age" or "inoculation%". In your recipe (800g flour, 160g starter) you refer this as being as being 20%. However, the spreadsheet you refer to with the timings defines the %age thus" Inoculation is the percentage of fermented flour to total flour in the dough or preferment when it is first mixed" - I read this as approx 10% (starter flour/total flour) . Can you comment ?!
Thanks - very good videos.
Starter % is the same as inoculation. If you use 20g starter for 100g flour or 100g starter for a loaf that calls for 500g flour your inoculation percentage is 20%. If you use 50g of starter in the 500g flour loaf it is 10% inoculation. That is because 10% bakers percentage of the flour is already fermented before even mixing the dough.
People use bakers percentage because you would have to recalculate awkward numbers if you didn’t. For example, 100g starter per 500g flour is 20% inoculation bakers %. But it’s actually 100g/600g = 16.66% because 100g starter adds to the total. It can be even more complicated if your 100g starter is actually 50g water and 50g flour meaning that 50g flour is pre fermented out of 500g new and therefore 50/(500+50) = 50/550 = 9% net inoculation by total mass and adjusted ratios. And if your starter is actually 80% hydration stiff for lasting overnight it could be 1.8S = 100 | S (starter flour) = 6% net prefermented flour or something like that.
TLDR: use bakers percentage and every ingredient is compared only to the amount of flour you use in your recipe. Start from the intended flour amount and work backwards for every ingredient unless you accidentally spill too much water and have to recalculate how much extra flour to add afterwards. One time I spilled a bunch of salt and had to make a huge batch at the right hydration but I digress. For a basic recipe it would be 20% inoculation 2% salt 70% hydration = 500g flour + 100g starter + 350g water + 10g salt. Sorry even the tldr was long but once you understand bakers percentage you can scale any recipe on the entire internet up or down as you please.
@@justryan2070 My point is that the behavior of a bread dough (eg fermentation times) depends far more on the flour (fermented) content of the starter and not the total wet weight (of the starter). I believe the the fermentation times table/spreadsheet posted previously by Herr Bread Code refers to fermented/new flour as "Inoculation" . So, for his experiment above, I believe this is 10% +/-.
I fully understand bakers math.
Two starters with the same wet weight but different hydration ratios (ie differing flour %) will produced different fermentation times - that's all - no biggee.
Howdy. So how would this work without a dutch oven? When I open my oven door I lose 150-200F and it takes 5 minutes to recover. I try to go as fast as I can. BTW I just finished baking 4 loaves using your master class method and they are by far the best loaves I have ever baked. Very much appreciate your work.
Thank you! Video on that coming out soon after my next one :-)
@@the_bread_code Awesome!
Wait, what?!?! Are you saying Hendrix that you’re not stretching, folding, or kneading, nothing in that 12 hours? If that’s what you’re saying It would be a game changer for me... oops, just read the description, sorry got excited to watch first. 🤓
Sorry, I know that’s not the topic of the video, but it had me shook! OK I’ll go back and watch the actual experiment now 🥖🍞😂
Oh yes. Video on this upcoming soon haha. Just failed though, so need to try again. Hopefully end of this week.
When did you lower the temp for the “higher temp first” bread? When you took off the lid?
This is also my question. I didn't notice WHEN.
After 25 minutes :-). One was steady 230°C for 45 minutes, the other one I lowered the temp from 250°C to 230°C after 25 minutes. It then baked another 15 minutes if I recall until the crust had the desired color.
Thank you! Love your bread and recipes and videos!
@@the_bread_code alles klar, danke!
MOIN! Ich wohne ja auch in Hamburg. Wo kaufst du dein Mehl? Ich finde die Auswahl in Edeka nicht so gut. Edit: Zweite Frage, was heisst eigentlich Bread Flour auf Deutsch, ich habe so viel verschiedne Meinungen gelesen. Danke!!
Moin Katie. You can find an article on the German flour here: blog.the-bread-code.io/tutorial/2020/08/20/sourdough-flour-in-germany.html. Hope it helps.
Too many confounding variables, 7% is deep in the margin of error. We need a larger sample size; why don't we all do a similar experiment? This way we can avoid the issue with different ovens, different temperature ranges, shaping and proofing issues, etc?
Personally, I usually do high to low on a baking steel with a steam bath and an inverted baking sheet hood, 300C 8 min, 220C 8 min, remove steam and cover and continue untill done.
In general, high to low is relevant when the "high" is too hot for a continuous bake. There must be a cutoff from which it is a disadvantage, based on bulk size and max temp, would not start with a blistering pizza oven with a giant loaf...
Moin Daniel. You are right, thanks for the great comment. I need to give this another go. I tested it again with a few different temperatures. Stay tuned!
Which size banneton did you use for this?
Linked in description. Hope that helps.
Hallo, where can i buy this dutch oven
Hey man. I linked it in the description. It's called the Brovn 👍
Hi can you tell me whereto findt that big spatula you use for cutting the dough? Thanks!
You can buy it in Brico Depot or something similiar. They are much cheaper than in proffesional baker shops. I payed for my spatula only 2 euro 💶
@@angelikaradominska5512 I'm living in Italy can't seem to find a decent size one without the angles!
@@DavideSchachterJazz soo sorry for that ☹️ you can also try to find it on the Aliexpress, Amazon or others
@@DavideSchachterJazz I tryed to find some construction shops in Italy but they are unfortunately closed now ☹️
Hello there, I bought mine from this website:
backmann24.de/98/teigschaber/teigabstecher-mit-griffleiste-edelstahl
I think it's the shop of the company which actually produces them. They are from Germany and ship internationally, however it's a bit expensive.
How long we need to bake in the oven ? With lifd and without lid later on ?
Bake for 25 minutes at 230°C with the lid, 20 minutes without :)
lol 666 541 lol
Ahhh, come on, you can do better.
Should have equalized your loaves. And when you failed, okay, everyone makes mistakes. The solution is easy peasy. Just do it right next time. And publish then publish.
But don't waste my time watching you trying to "equalize" . . . and doing it badly.
Like your channel, but this is not up to your usual standard.
Oh come on, don't be so rude ;)
Even if equalizing didn't go well, there are other observations worth to share and see!