Not to mention all the additional animals that are killed by govt to maintain popular hunting and fishing targets. Coyotes, wolves, bears, mountain lion, fish-eating birds (i.e. cormorants) are all killed to stop them from killing deer, game birds, fish so that humans can kill those animals instead.
Hunting out of necessity to protect crops, so shooting rabbits to keep the population under control on a vegetable farm could still be vegan” What? You lost me with this.
What's wrong with that statement? If you have literally no other options left (what is meant by "necessity"), then wouldn't it be vegan? If you get attacked by somebody and you exercise self-defense but in the process you kill your attacker, does that mean you're no longer a vegan? I mean, you killed another sentient being, a human nonetheless. So killing out of necessity means you're not vegan anymore according to you?
Thanks for posting this Swayze. I have a lot of family members who hunt, being from the US Midwest and also being white, so these topics as a vegan are more acute to me than others. Definitely need to sit and wrestle with these arguments before I'm ready to go toe-to-toe with my family on such a complex topic
@@kayoss2306 I thought that hunting was primarily a privileged white person thing with how you see so many rich white men go to Africa to trophy hunt so unapologetically, then from the people I've come to meet over my life, most that hunt are also white. I'm also trying to understand my life as someone who is white and has certain privileges in society that went unnoticed for a long time. Trying to frame my life based on context, etc. etc.
when it comes down to it I find hunting to be "less bad" usually. I've got hunters in my family and they're gonna eat meat anyway, so a freezer full of deer meat for the year is better than a freezer full of Tyson chicken tendies. they're wild deer allowed to live in the wilderness (until they get shot), not bred and born into a factory farm. and to be honest, the only thing I miss out of 9 years being vegan is shitty gas-station pizza, venison, and pheasant. I don't want to eat dead animals, but it's not like I'm gonna lie. I liked the game-y taste a lot, and that's not been replicated in any vegan product I've found so far.
How do you cook wild game in the USA? I'm from Sweden and I can certainly cook something that's vegan and "gamey" using especially one kind of mushroom, but it works with others too, combined with other ingredients typically added to dishes made from wild or semi-domesticated (reindeer) animals.
@@thatsalt1560 usually it's grilled or smoked in my part of the country. the USA is huge, so other people may have different methods. I do love mushrooms but it's really not the same. and that's ok to admit. pretending vegan substitutes are just like the real thing does more harm than good for the movement imo.
Having watched only the intro, interested to see how shooting animals to protect crops would be vegan, but only if you subsequently allow their flesh to rot.
Hmm. As with buying chicken eggs, you seem concerned with incentives and protecting against unconscious motivations that may lead to bad outcomes. While I appreciate this concern, I don't agree that potentially incentivizing unethical or nonvegan behaviors actually **makes** something nonvegan or unethical in itself.
This was interesting. As a non-vegan I’ve always considered hunting for food the next best thing if veganism wasn’t possible. It reduces farm raised meat consumption. I do have to mention that hitting a deer or turkey(or another car hitting one) and butchering it isn’t that rare. I’m in the southern US so maybe the attitude differs.
I don't think hunting is better than farming in any way, unless the meat consumption drastically decreases. Wild animals require way more space than farm animals. Any ecosystem can only support so many animals of a given size and diet behaviour. Farmed animals have a population larger than all the wild mammals (herbivores or carnivores) combined. If we were going to swap from farming to hunting for sustainability, we should first increase by the millions the wild herbivore populations, which would probably end up in millions of animals with millions of wild acres to roam, or in millions of farmed animals to reach the numbers. Or drastically reduce meat usage. I don't think hunting is a solution for the problem. It may look like to the individual but in a collective scale it would solve nothing.
@@search895 I hadn’t really thought of it in terms of the space trade off. I have been seeing it as pushing demand towards more humanely raised animals. Hunted meat may reduce the amount of factory farmed meat consumed. Maybe if enough of the ratio was shifted the better practices would become more widespread. Whenever there’s deer in the freezer, I don’t buy nearly as much in the grocery store personally. The problem can’t be solved by hunting but maybe it has a role. People are becoming more health conscious and distrustful of large businesses so maybe the reduction in meat consumption will be next.
@@MdoubleHBxxx. That's 100% a LIE. We are omnivores. Spreading junk science is a good way to get people to pay for books and products when they struggle and get sick on extreme diets like yours. People wouldn't be able to participate is so many varied diets if we weren't omnivores. Our vitamin requirements span fruit, veg, grains and meat. Vegans including frugivores should take B12 because it's found in animal products they dont eat. Carnivores should take vitamin C and E because those are found in plants more often. Neither extremes are natural diets but modern conveniences allow us to participate in diets that would otherwise sicken or kill us.
Moose have already taken out most of my winter brassica this year. It’s probably my female, so I don’t mind, but a few years ago she had a male baby and when he was browsing in my garden, it wasn’t okay. He didn’t see me and run off, he put his ears down and wouldn’t let me leave my house. It was about to be bow hunting season and his antlers indicated he was old enough to be taken, so I let my hunter friend know. I’m not going to put myself or my dogs at risk for some agro asshole but I’ve lived in harmony with his mother for almost two decades.
@@MdoubleHBxxx. the hightened bioavailability of nutrients in cooked food (brought to us by the "domestication" of fire) is what allowed humanity to evolve the large brain mass we currently have.
Australia has a number of invasive species. Rabbits, foxes, deer, pigs, goats, horses - of which are hunted. They cause huge amounts of environmental damage and are responsible for dwindling native species numbers. I'm not opposed to their population control.
Not even a minute in and you said that killing certain sentient beings under certain circumstances is vegan, which it isn't. If you think I'm going to sit through 9 more minutes of this then you're out of your mind.
it is vegan in the sense that in order for many many people to access their food at all, they rely on large-scale farming, and efficient large scale farming practices that are economically efficient rely on a certain level of crop protection- not saying that is good it just is what it is right now, and if there are ways around that we should fight for them. All that said, much of the food you eat may come from sources where animals in fields are killed for your food even if it is "vegan food". this is an argument many carnists say when they are like "UHH well did you know, animals die for your plants too" which is a silly line of reasoning not to eat plants since we need to eat food, and we are faced with these frustratingly corrupt and exploitative systems and omnivores eat plants too as well as animals who eat plants that are protected from "pests" so that isnt' an argument against reducing your harm. all that said, yes vegans are harming animals through the food we eat, but we are overall reducing are harm/ contribution to animal deaths/ cruelty and it is the least we can do in the right direction. This doesn't justify killing rabbits for the carrots, but it does put into perspective the complicated food system we rely on, and the challenge of "pure veganism" which doesn't (meaningfully) exist, but doesn't mean you should do nothing. Eating the rabbits you kill, which can be seen as making sure their bodies aren't killed for no reason, puts a new layer of motivation into the situation where you are now consuming and gaining nutritional value from the rabbits which is a bit of a slippery slope between killing them for the maintenance of a viable farm/ food source as a producer vs killing them for food sustenance reasons. you may kill more of them or kill them more unnecessarily because of this external benefit you are getting out of them which if you are not in dire need of this food source is completely and clearly not-vegan.
@@blank468 Dire need is a key point. If some find that a "vegan" diet returns poorer, physiological results than does a WF, omni. diet, how great a sacrifice are they expected to make & how would such be measured?
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme yeah, these are big questions. Dont have a crisp answer for youbut i think this is why imo systems and education needs to change beyond individual people or business actions to make veganism more viable
@@blank468 Doesn't 'systems and education needs to change beyond individual people' precisely override the experience of the individual, in favour of whoever runs "the collective"?
@@Unmasking_ViandalismeYep, Mike talked about this the other week in one of his videos. Collective action is the sum of individual action, so individual action is 100% not to be subverted in favor of institutionalized collective action
I've always been anti hunting because I grew up behind a skeet and bow and arrow shooting range. The surrounding properties allowed people to hunt on their land which I had to walk through on my way home from school. I can't tell you how many times hunters were mad I was making noise while walking or if I wasn't making noise they would tell me they almost shot at me. As for road kill, my grandmother grew up in the depression and if a deer was fresh on the road she would put it in her car and take it to the butcher because she couldn't let anything go to waste.
I work in the veterinary field (in Germany) and ironically the majority of our male veterinarians are hunters. Of course they claim that they do it for wildlife conservation purposes and that it's just a necessary evil. I don't believe that for a second. They love it. The hunt, the killing, the feeling of power and control. It feeds their egos. Those are not people who love animals and regret having to kill some of them for the greater good. I've had to put down animals who were terminally ill and suffering, so I knew it was the right thing to do. But I would never enjoy that, make jokes about it or make up some spiritual bullshit to justify it. Killing is never beautiful or romantic or respectful. Killing is killing. Stop romanticizing death.
@@ChyvDso Was Tieren an Grausamkeit widerfährt, wird auch vielen Menschen angetan. Soll ich auch Menschen nicht vermenschlichen? Alle Säugetiere können Angst, Schmerz und Stress empfinden. Es ist keine "Vermenschlichung", wenn man unnötiges Leid reduzieren möchte.
I was kind of hoping there'd be a section about invasive species. I've seen videos of invasive goldfish dominating local waters, and it's insane how much damage they cause. Although killing the goldfish feels wrong, is it not better for the environment and the animals in that environment to remove the invasive goldfish and let native species take over again? I don't know.
The speed limit -- and more importantly the design speed of streets -- in urban and suburban areas should be 20mph/30kmh anyway. This would save deer lives, car driver lives, AND the lives of people outside of cars.
Ots not farming. There is deer farms, amd they ard horrible when hunters go shoot the high fence deer. But its not goverment farming. They used a tool that were very effectivw at reestablishing the damage they had fone to the whitetail deer population. Hunters, they were the key, it paid money to make better habitats, it enabled the sick and weak to be shot away only leaving strong individuals, this gave a healthy population of deer and reestablished a population that colonizers had almost killed off. Ducks have doubled in quantity and millions of acres of wetland have been secured for their benefit. Its not a money making machine, so not a farm. Its a conservation plan to help nature get better afyer we mistreated it for farmland and food
A big reason that deer hunting is not effective is that the government restricts when you can hunt and how many animals you can have in a season, especially if you use firearms. If those restrictions were removed, the population would be massively reduced.
I've never hunted in my life beyond fishing as a child. That said, if I WERE to hunt, I'd be totally comfortable hunting invasive species like Nutria, Feral Swine, and even Burmese Python's even if they all taste terrible.
They're all edible, but feral pigs need special care in preparation because the raw carcass may transmit diseases with unprotected contact, and pythons, being predators, accumulate heavy metals like mercury in their bodies.
I haven't finished watching the video yet, but I'm a bit puzzled by something you mentioned at the beginning. When you say that eating oysters isn't vegan but can still be ethical, it makes me wonder what definition of veganism you're using. If oysters most likely aren't sentient beings, doesn't that make their consumption compatible with a vegan lifestyle? I don't know, I'm confused...
@@lastlime3792No she doesn't. Do you really need to over exaggerate what she says in order for your disagreement to make sense? If not, please state your point.
@@andersok please don’t defend unethical practices cause you need to defend vegans👓. Sorry she literally said it’s okay to kill animals and but not to eat them...maybe listen to what’s said. Your point is it’s okay to kill but not to eat animals....that’s not “more” ethical than killing to maintain life.
I think when she said that, maybe she meant that eating oysters isnt vegan in the dietary sense. In her other videos she's said that since oysters are likely not sentient, eating them is still vegan in the ethical sense.
This undersells hunting in light of small animL deaths from crop agriculture. One of the biggest arguments against "burger veganism" (eating grass-fed beef and dairy to reduce small animal deaths vs. crop agriculture) is the environmental impact. With deer hunting (better yet, invasive species hunting) you could make the same small-animals argument but have far less environment impact. I speak as a vegan.
Burger veganism is bs because it doesn't factor in the small animals killed during production of cow feed. You need around 10 pounds of soy to grow one pound of venison. Much more economical and environmentaly friendly to eat the soy.
Where is hunting bucks the only ones allowed to be killed? Maybe it is an eastern thing, but where I used to live, some parks require doe first and have managed anterless only hunts in certain sections. Yes, you get some button bucks with anterless hunts, but the main goal is population reduction for forest regeneration. Hunting is a management tool for non fish and wildlife agencies. Licenses in one state I worked for came with four anterless tags and you had to purchase a quality buck tag (again anterless included button bucks and small spikes of course, I know). Deer, invasive species, and lack of fire are big issues in natural areas. But again, while I've lived in the western US, I was not involved in a job that would closely with deer management, so I am not as familiar. I know quality bucks are prized and there's a lot of emphasis on them....still not only bucks. While this is not related to the ethical question, I feel like it is misrepresentation of hunting programs. (And while I've worked with deer management from the natural resources side, I have been vegetarian most of life and am finally moving towards plant based...so I don't hunt. Just used to work with and around those who hunt) And I kept watching. Okay, I get the oh, people with guns near me, not safe. No. Managed hunts and culls are safe if run properly....and idiot people listen to signs and staff when they tell them that a trail or area is closed. I've worked managed hunts where hunters call me if someone ignored the signs and we had to get natural resource police out there to escort park users who ignore signage. While I enjoy your content, I think more research was needed on this video. And that's coming from a non hunter. As someone who grew up in a rural area and has been on dairy farms and seen the entire chicken process from grain mills, hatcheries, houses, and processing plants....if you're going to eat meat, hunt it. And birth control? That is temporary, like every two years, ,and do you think you're going to get all the females? Plus I'm assuming sedating and tagging so you can track which does. It's been put into practice and there's been a lot of research in the field but if you're going to use a taxpayer argument...nah.
Appreciate the context. The point about fire and pest damage due to climate and ecosystem change is interesting since it points to a changing game theory where the rules progress over time. Conservation can look different depending on what environment exists, but we still have an incentive to reverse environmental change since the consequences of such are unknown - potentially life threatening for all of life. I agree with Swayze's main argument in that hunting isn't necessary (hunting in a high income country is a choice, like how the retaining of beliefs in choosing to hunt is also a choice) so any argument claiming so is defunct, but I still recognize that hunting for meat is better on the whole than farming for meat - even though Fish and Wildlife Agencies change environment according to sustaining populations of certain species, those changes in environment might also support species indirectly as well. Not sure if pasture + soy/corn field monocultures support as many species as the former Thanks for the food for thought
@@SeeNickView no, cause human hunters are so many that most animal Hunted would live so few like in farms..... alternative Is zero meat. Meat Is aslo related many diseases.....
I approve of hunting in places like new Zealand and Australia. Where animals such as dear, ferret and rabbits are invasive species and are so harmful for local and endangered wildlife!
@@jordy65056 sure, but this makes 'vegan' purely descriptive rather than ethical in definition. You can't ethically harm an animal if it isn't at all sentient
@@jonathanjames7181 there are different types of vegans, for many different reasons, ethical, descriptive etc. The thing with oysters is that you're harming the ocean when eating them because they're needed in the ocean to clean water and serve as food for other animals, if you're vegan for the planet j guess you wouldn't eat it, if you're vegan for the animals suffering then you're more likely to eat them since there is no suffering per say
Is it ethical to teach children or adults to enjoy hunting? Or to get them into it? Or to reinforce or propagate the assumption that it's cool, okay, a great form of recreational activity, or of getting to know, enjoy, appreciate, and love nature, the natural world, wildlife, the beauty of wildness, wilderness, and freedom, etc.?
@@lastlime3792 I hear what you are saying, but that isn't me. Many vegans: yes. Me: no. See my other post on cricket farming. Some interesting issues. And I think the vast majority vegan farming operations and practices are incredibly - if unintentionally or unknowingly - cruel. There is huge room for improvement, but most vegans are too busy pointing their fingers at others and neglecting to examine their own issues, like causing great suffering to billions of highly sentient creatures. I once adopted three baby rats that were being sold as "feeders" (reptile food). And I raised them. They are playful, intelligent, feeling, loving creatures. Most vegans (1) don't realize this, (2) don't fully appreciate it, (3) are not aware of the suffering their farming practices cause to billions of rodents and a wide variety of other animals, and (4) are not aware that things can be done to improve the situation, and very significantly improve it. And most just don't care enough to do anything about it or trouble themselves to do so.
what about the wild boars in arkansas area? i heard theyre an invasive species introduced for hunting a couple hundred years ago and now theyre a huge problem. is any of that true?
The issue is shooting an innocent living being who would have preferred not to be shot. You see no issue because you view animals as resources instead of individuals.
Interesting enough I've actually visited a small town where they put many of the deer on birth control. It was an area where hunting was strictly prohibited to public. The population was insanely high, and most of the deer were very sickly. They ended up having to hire someone to cull a certain amount every few years quietly. But it was needed since the only predators the deer had were alligators. But it obviously wasn't enough to make a dent in the pop.
@cicciomattese not always. Seems you didn't even read my comment. As they were over run with disease and some were literally starving. Where I live there is tags for hunting and it is highly documented. All our deer are healthy. When you get into places where high populations aren't controlled diseases like CWD sky rocket. And it's a horrific disease and a much worse and slow death than a well placed bullet. CWD basically turns them into zombies.
The high deer population doesn't just help human hunters, it also helps predators further up the food chain, many of which have made major comebacks *and* wander into human controlled areas less frequently because of higher deer populations. Now, whether or not this is part of an incentive to revive the fur industry is hard to say, since it hasn't really happened yet, but certainly there is a lot of boom-bust population growth in habitats not managed by humans, and there could be an argument that humans can provide a tempering influence in preventing mass death (when managed well) or, conversely, exacerbate the issue when managed poorly.
Not only can it be ethical, in many ways it is a necessity. Of course there are cruel ways to hunt and they should be lessened but that doesn't make hunting overall the same cruel action by default.
Only people in food dessert or living in tribes who don’t have enough resources to food in general *need* to hunt, which are like less than 1% of the global population For majority of the people on earth, especially in developed countries, do not need animal products. You can get all the required nutrients for a human from plant based food
Deer are culled in Scotland otherwise they decimate the land. It's done humanely and quickly and is processed locally by professional huntsman. The locals eat it. No food miles. Perfectly ethical and self sufficient.
@@ramenjd6239anyone with pills doesn’t need to eat whole foods🤡. You are cool with telling people to eat low bioavailable foods cause you want to sound virtuous while simultaneously killing animals and insects and everything else as long as it protects your carrots🧟♀️. If you can’t see killing and eating it is more ethical than killing and tossing in the dumpsters...you are insane(I mean vegan).
" For majority of the people on earth, especially in developed countries, do not need animal products. You can get all the required nutrients for a human from plant based food " I don't think this is what the OP meant by in many ways it is a necessity. We also don't need cars, we could walk. Anytime you say "do not need" it will be very hard to win the argument. There are lots of things we don't need, that we actu-ally don't need, cars, washing machines, smartphones,... Just sayin
@@ebbyc1817 Actually you are incorrect. Did you know some places are completely cut off during the winter months. Most things come in by boat on many small islands. There are no large supermarkets that ship foods in from all over the world. The great thing about these small islands is that they are completely self sufficient. So when there are mass shortages, or the grid goes down they know what to do. It's a lifestyle practiced for centuries...no blender required. No cars either!😁
I have four daughters who are vegan, of course, they are vegan only in virtual space and in front of others, and in real life they all eat meat, just because they want to show themselves as vegan, they think that by doing so, they show that they are special and intellectual people. they are given, otherwise none of them could even eat vegetarian food for two days and they got sick, because the human body needs meat and protein very much... Many vegans are like my cousins, that is, they eat meat in their personal life and They only say in front of others that we are vegetarians,,, now you understand why 98% of the world's people are not ready to accept your vegan thoughts?? Because even most of your members do not follow it
Not to mention all the additional animals that are killed by govt to maintain popular hunting and fishing targets. Coyotes, wolves, bears, mountain lion, fish-eating birds (i.e. cormorants) are all killed to stop them from killing deer, game birds, fish so that humans can kill those animals instead.
Hunting out of necessity to protect crops, so shooting rabbits to keep the population under control on a vegetable farm could still be vegan” What? You lost me with this.
What's wrong with that statement? If you have literally no other options left (what is meant by "necessity"), then wouldn't it be vegan?
If you get attacked by somebody and you exercise self-defense but in the process you kill your attacker, does that mean you're no longer a vegan? I mean, you killed another sentient being, a human nonetheless. So killing out of necessity means you're not vegan anymore according to you?
If you hurt animals in anyway it goes against the notion of being vegan
@@Riley095 An unattainable standard is not a standard I'm interested in, thank you.
@@Riley095 Problem: Any way is an absolute. This implies even defending oneself or stepping on an ant is not vegan, which is not true.
Thanks for posting this Swayze. I have a lot of family members who hunt, being from the US Midwest and also being white, so these topics as a vegan are more acute to me than others. Definitely need to sit and wrestle with these arguments before I'm ready to go toe-to-toe with my family on such a complex topic
What does being white have to do with it?
@@kayoss2306 I thought that hunting was primarily a privileged white person thing with how you see so many rich white men go to Africa to trophy hunt so unapologetically, then from the people I've come to meet over my life, most that hunt are also white. I'm also trying to understand my life as someone who is white and has certain privileges in society that went unnoticed for a long time. Trying to frame my life based on context, etc. etc.
when it comes down to it I find hunting to be "less bad" usually. I've got hunters in my family and they're gonna eat meat anyway, so a freezer full of deer meat for the year is better than a freezer full of Tyson chicken tendies. they're wild deer allowed to live in the wilderness (until they get shot), not bred and born into a factory farm. and to be honest, the only thing I miss out of 9 years being vegan is shitty gas-station pizza, venison, and pheasant. I don't want to eat dead animals, but it's not like I'm gonna lie. I liked the game-y taste a lot, and that's not been replicated in any vegan product I've found so far.
How do you cook wild game in the USA? I'm from Sweden and I can certainly cook something that's vegan and "gamey" using especially one kind of mushroom, but it works with others too, combined with other ingredients typically added to dishes made from wild or semi-domesticated (reindeer) animals.
@@MdoubleHBxxx. please seek mental help, you've been obsessed with Swayze for years, dude. you got your brain all screwed up and I feel bad for you.
@@thatsalt1560 usually it's grilled or smoked in my part of the country. the USA is huge, so other people may have different methods. I do love mushrooms but it's really not the same. and that's ok to admit. pretending vegan substitutes are just like the real thing does more harm than good for the movement imo.
Having watched only the intro, interested to see how shooting animals to protect crops would be vegan, but only if you subsequently allow their flesh to rot.
Hmm. As with buying chicken eggs, you seem concerned with incentives and protecting against unconscious motivations that may lead to bad outcomes. While I appreciate this concern, I don't agree that potentially incentivizing unethical or nonvegan behaviors actually **makes** something nonvegan or unethical in itself.
This was interesting. As a non-vegan I’ve always considered hunting for food the next best thing if veganism wasn’t possible. It reduces farm raised meat consumption. I do have to mention that hitting a deer or turkey(or another car hitting one) and butchering it isn’t that rare. I’m in the southern US so maybe the attitude differs.
I don't think hunting is better than farming in any way, unless the meat consumption drastically decreases. Wild animals require way more space than farm animals. Any ecosystem can only support so many animals of a given size and diet behaviour. Farmed animals have a population larger than all the wild mammals (herbivores or carnivores) combined. If we were going to swap from farming to hunting for sustainability, we should first increase by the millions the wild herbivore populations, which would probably end up in millions of animals with millions of wild acres to roam, or in millions of farmed animals to reach the numbers. Or drastically reduce meat usage. I don't think hunting is a solution for the problem. It may look like to the individual but in a collective scale it would solve nothing.
@@search895 I hadn’t really thought of it in terms of the space trade off. I have been seeing it as pushing demand towards more humanely raised animals. Hunted meat may reduce the amount of factory farmed meat consumed. Maybe if enough of the ratio was shifted the better practices would become more widespread. Whenever there’s deer in the freezer, I don’t buy nearly as much in the grocery store personally. The problem can’t be solved by hunting but maybe it has a role. People are becoming more health conscious and distrustful of large businesses so maybe the reduction in meat consumption will be next.
@@MdoubleHBxxx. That's 100% a LIE. We are omnivores. Spreading junk science is a good way to get people to pay for books and products when they struggle and get sick on extreme diets like yours.
People wouldn't be able to participate is so many varied diets if we weren't omnivores. Our vitamin requirements span fruit, veg, grains and meat. Vegans including frugivores should take B12 because it's found in animal products they dont eat. Carnivores should take vitamin C and E because those are found in plants more often. Neither extremes are natural diets but modern conveniences allow us to participate in diets that would otherwise sicken or kill us.
Moose have already taken out most of my winter brassica this year. It’s probably my female, so I don’t mind, but a few years ago she had a male baby and when he was browsing in my garden, it wasn’t okay. He didn’t see me and run off, he put his ears down and wouldn’t let me leave my house. It was about to be bow hunting season and his antlers indicated he was old enough to be taken, so I let my hunter friend know. I’m not going to put myself or my dogs at risk for some agro asshole but I’ve lived in harmony with his mother for almost two decades.
As a gentleman gardener if my lawn turns out to be non-vegan I’m going to be disappointed.
Gold star for identifying deer conservation as farming!
@@MdoubleHBxxx.lmao raw diets are bs
@@MdoubleHBxxx. the hightened bioavailability of nutrients in cooked food (brought to us by the "domestication" of fire) is what allowed humanity to evolve the large brain mass we currently have.
Australia has a number of invasive species. Rabbits, foxes, deer, pigs, goats, horses - of which are hunted. They cause huge amounts of environmental damage and are responsible for dwindling native species numbers. I'm not opposed to their population control.
lol why not killing humans then? anyway hunting Is not effective reduce their popolation so is only cruelty
I feel like if you're going to kill the rabbits, you might as well eat it, otherwise it's pretty much a waste
Invasive species could provide an interesting angle. I believe in Australia you're primarily only allowed to hunt non native wildlife.
But dingos are still allowed to be killed 😢
@@search895 agreed that's a bummer 😞.
The main thing people hunt where I am is kangaroos.
Can you make a video about sentience and explaining sentience hierarchies?
Interesting yes
I'll still waiting for a "triggered by carbs" shirt 😂
Not even a minute in and you said that killing certain sentient beings under certain circumstances is vegan, which it isn't. If you think I'm going to sit through 9 more minutes of this then you're out of your mind.
Killing rabbits, in order to protect crops, is "vegan" but eating those rabbits isn't "vegan". I say "skew veganism."
it is vegan in the sense that in order for many many people to access their food at all, they rely on large-scale farming, and efficient large scale farming practices that are economically efficient rely on a certain level of crop protection- not saying that is good it just is what it is right now, and if there are ways around that we should fight for them. All that said, much of the food you eat may come from sources where animals in fields are killed for your food even if it is "vegan food". this is an argument many carnists say when they are like "UHH well did you know, animals die for your plants too" which is a silly line of reasoning not to eat plants since we need to eat food, and we are faced with these frustratingly corrupt and exploitative systems and omnivores eat plants too as well as animals who eat plants that are protected from "pests" so that isnt' an argument against reducing your harm. all that said, yes vegans are harming animals through the food we eat, but we are overall reducing are harm/ contribution to animal deaths/ cruelty and it is the least we can do in the right direction. This doesn't justify killing rabbits for the carrots, but it does put into perspective the complicated food system we rely on, and the challenge of "pure veganism" which doesn't (meaningfully) exist, but doesn't mean you should do nothing. Eating the rabbits you kill, which can be seen as making sure their bodies aren't killed for no reason, puts a new layer of motivation into the situation where you are now consuming and gaining nutritional value from the rabbits which is a bit of a slippery slope between killing them for the maintenance of a viable farm/ food source as a producer vs killing them for food sustenance reasons. you may kill more of them or kill them more unnecessarily because of this external benefit you are getting out of them which if you are not in dire need of this food source is completely and clearly not-vegan.
@@blank468 Dire need is a key point. If some find that a "vegan" diet returns poorer, physiological results than does a WF, omni. diet, how great a sacrifice are they expected to make & how would such be measured?
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme yeah, these are big questions. Dont have a crisp answer for youbut i think this is why imo systems and education needs to change beyond individual people or business actions to make veganism more viable
@@blank468 Doesn't 'systems and education needs to change beyond individual people' precisely override the experience of the individual, in favour of whoever runs "the collective"?
@@Unmasking_ViandalismeYep, Mike talked about this the other week in one of his videos. Collective action is the sum of individual action, so individual action is 100% not to be subverted in favor of institutionalized collective action
To be ethical can we except crop death to include chicken, cows, loins and wild animals in a way a form of hunting ?.
Did you ever talk about the ethics of killing odd order predators? I'm curious to hear your opinion on that.
ok well you're just a goof ball, I had a serious question@@MdoubleHBxxx.
What does that mean?
@@daniellelopez3342 some vegans say its ok to kill predator that would kill herbivores in the wild. for example wolves...
I've always been anti hunting because I grew up behind a skeet and bow and arrow shooting range. The surrounding properties allowed people to hunt on their land which I had to walk through on my way home from school. I can't tell you how many times hunters were mad I was making noise while walking or if I wasn't making noise they would tell me they almost shot at me.
As for road kill, my grandmother grew up in the depression and if a deer was fresh on the road she would put it in her car and take it to the butcher because she couldn't let anything go to waste.
Maracujá is passion fruit in português :] ❤
I work in the veterinary field (in Germany) and ironically the majority of our male veterinarians are hunters. Of course they claim that they do it for wildlife conservation purposes and that it's just a necessary evil. I don't believe that for a second. They love it. The hunt, the killing, the feeling of power and control. It feeds their egos. Those are not people who love animals and regret having to kill some of them for the greater good. I've had to put down animals who were terminally ill and suffering, so I knew it was the right thing to do. But I would never enjoy that, make jokes about it or make up some spiritual bullshit to justify it. Killing is never beautiful or romantic or respectful. Killing is killing. Stop romanticizing death.
hör auf Tiere zu vermenschlichen, danke
@@ChyvDso Was Tieren an Grausamkeit widerfährt, wird auch vielen Menschen angetan. Soll ich auch Menschen nicht vermenschlichen? Alle Säugetiere können Angst, Schmerz und Stress empfinden. Es ist keine "Vermenschlichung", wenn man unnötiges Leid reduzieren möchte.
Have you been following the 8 Passengers/Ruby Franke arrest? Would love to get your thoughts on all of it in a video maybe.
I was kind of hoping there'd be a section about invasive species. I've seen videos of invasive goldfish dominating local waters, and it's insane how much damage they cause. Although killing the goldfish feels wrong, is it not better for the environment and the animals in that environment to remove the invasive goldfish and let native species take over again? I don't know.
“No!”
The speed limit -- and more importantly the design speed of streets -- in urban and suburban areas should be 20mph/30kmh anyway. This would save deer lives, car driver lives, AND the lives of people outside of cars.
Not to mention cats and dogs.
Swayze looking extra delicious in this one. ❤
Have you seen the last video of Earthling Ed?
Spirituality: "The Enemy of Veganism"
Makes some good points and has a nice conclusion
Ots not farming. There is deer farms, amd they ard horrible when hunters go shoot the high fence deer. But its not goverment farming. They used a tool that were very effectivw at reestablishing the damage they had fone to the whitetail deer population. Hunters, they were the key, it paid money to make better habitats, it enabled the sick and weak to be shot away only leaving strong individuals, this gave a healthy population of deer and reestablished a population that colonizers had almost killed off. Ducks have doubled in quantity and millions of acres of wetland have been secured for their benefit. Its not a money making machine, so not a farm. Its a conservation plan to help nature get better afyer we mistreated it for farmland and food
Hunting.fishung off grid style not a huge deal, especially if it's supplementing then food forest, garden etc
A big reason that deer hunting is not effective is that the government restricts when you can hunt and how many animals you can have in a season, especially if you use firearms. If those restrictions were removed, the population would be massively reduced.
She showed that birth control Is much more effective and that popolation deer hunted reproduce quickly to compensate...
I've never hunted in my life beyond fishing as a child. That said, if I WERE to hunt, I'd be totally comfortable hunting invasive species like Nutria, Feral Swine, and even Burmese Python's even if they all taste terrible.
They're all edible, but feral pigs need special care in preparation because the raw carcass may transmit diseases with unprotected contact, and pythons, being predators, accumulate heavy metals like mercury in their bodies.
lol why not killing humans then? anyway hunting Is not effective reduce their popolation so is only crueltry
First ❤
I haven't finished watching the video yet, but I'm a bit puzzled by something you mentioned at the beginning. When you say that eating oysters isn't vegan but can still be ethical, it makes me wonder what definition of veganism you're using. If oysters most likely aren't sentient beings, doesn't that make their consumption compatible with a vegan lifestyle? I don't know, I'm confused...
She literally says it’s okay to kill all the living things you want as long as it’s to protect your carrots👓.
@@lastlime3792No she doesn't. Do you really need to over exaggerate what she says in order for your disagreement to make sense? If not, please state your point.
@@andersok please don’t defend unethical practices cause you need to defend vegans👓. Sorry she literally said it’s okay to kill animals and but not to eat them...maybe listen to what’s said. Your point is it’s okay to kill but not to eat animals....that’s not “more” ethical than killing to maintain life.
@@lastlime3792 She didn't say it's okay to kill all the living things you want. It's not about wanting to kill, it's about necessity.
I think when she said that, maybe she meant that eating oysters isnt vegan in the dietary sense. In her other videos she's said that since oysters are likely not sentient, eating them is still vegan in the ethical sense.
Good thing predator hunting is vegan.
This undersells hunting in light of small animL deaths from crop agriculture. One of the biggest arguments against "burger veganism" (eating grass-fed beef and dairy to reduce small animal deaths vs. crop agriculture) is the environmental impact. With deer hunting (better yet, invasive species hunting) you could make the same small-animals argument but have far less environment impact. I speak as a vegan.
Burger veganism is bs because it doesn't factor in the small animals killed during production of cow feed. You need around 10 pounds of soy to grow one pound of venison. Much more economical and environmentaly friendly to eat the soy.
Where is hunting bucks the only ones allowed to be killed? Maybe it is an eastern thing, but where I used to live, some parks require doe first and have managed anterless only hunts in certain sections. Yes, you get some button bucks with anterless hunts, but the main goal is population reduction for forest regeneration. Hunting is a management tool for non fish and wildlife agencies. Licenses in one state I worked for came with four anterless tags and you had to purchase a quality buck tag (again anterless included button bucks and small spikes of course, I know). Deer, invasive species, and lack of fire are big issues in natural areas. But again, while I've lived in the western US, I was not involved in a job that would closely with deer management, so I am not as familiar. I know quality bucks are prized and there's a lot of emphasis on them....still not only bucks.
While this is not related to the ethical question, I feel like it is misrepresentation of hunting programs. (And while I've worked with deer management from the natural resources side, I have been vegetarian most of life and am finally moving towards plant based...so I don't hunt. Just used to work with and around those who hunt)
And I kept watching. Okay, I get the oh, people with guns near me, not safe. No. Managed hunts and culls are safe if run properly....and idiot people listen to signs and staff when they tell them that a trail or area is closed. I've worked managed hunts where hunters call me if someone ignored the signs and we had to get natural resource police out there to escort park users who ignore signage. While I enjoy your content, I think more research was needed on this video. And that's coming from a non hunter. As someone who grew up in a rural area and has been on dairy farms and seen the entire chicken process from grain mills, hatcheries, houses, and processing plants....if you're going to eat meat, hunt it.
And birth control? That is temporary, like every two years, ,and do you think you're going to get all the females? Plus I'm assuming sedating and tagging so you can track which does. It's been put into practice and there's been a lot of research in the field but if you're going to use a taxpayer argument...nah.
In British Columbia it’s usually easiest to get a tag for adult male, then any male, then any deer or a doe tag.
Appreciate the context.
The point about fire and pest damage due to climate and ecosystem change is interesting since it points to a changing game theory where the rules progress over time. Conservation can look different depending on what environment exists, but we still have an incentive to reverse environmental change since the consequences of such are unknown - potentially life threatening for all of life.
I agree with Swayze's main argument in that hunting isn't necessary (hunting in a high income country is a choice, like how the retaining of beliefs in choosing to hunt is also a choice) so any argument claiming so is defunct, but I still recognize that hunting for meat is better on the whole than farming for meat - even though Fish and Wildlife Agencies change environment according to sustaining populations of certain species, those changes in environment might also support species indirectly as well. Not sure if pasture + soy/corn field monocultures support as many species as the former
Thanks for the food for thought
in different country of world hunting Is illegal like India. Hunting Is not necessary so Is always cruel. Point. Stop justify.
@@SeeNickView no, cause human hunters are so many that most animal Hunted would live so few like in farms..... alternative Is zero meat. Meat Is aslo related many diseases.....
Very Interesting! Thanks for sharing!
I approve of hunting in places like new Zealand and Australia. Where animals such as dear, ferret and rabbits are invasive species and are so harmful for local and endangered wildlife!
this Animals are released for hunting reasons, It Is a hoxymoron that hunting them resolve problem 😂
@jonahwhale9047 "oxymoron definition: 1. two words or phrases used together that have, or seem to have, opposite meanings"
Humans are the most damaging species... time to hunt humans I guess.
I spear fish but I live in a blue zone off the coast of Italy.
I am italian too, super cruel and violence. I love sea and sea creatures, when i go go Sea i love look at them and killing them Is absurd
@@cicciomattese your clearly a fake and not an islander
Side note: If it's true that oysters are 0% sentient, I don't see why we would still say they aren't vegan.
Because oysters are an animal
@@jordy65056 sure, but this makes 'vegan' purely descriptive rather than ethical in definition. You can't ethically harm an animal if it isn't at all sentient
@@jonathanjames7181 there are different types of vegans, for many different reasons, ethical, descriptive etc. The thing with oysters is that you're harming the ocean when eating them because they're needed in the ocean to clean water and serve as food for other animals, if you're vegan for the planet j guess you wouldn't eat it, if you're vegan for the animals suffering then you're more likely to eat them since there is no suffering per say
I think people will assume F**K Allignment is about AI lol
Is it ethical to teach children or adults to enjoy hunting? Or to get them into it? Or to reinforce or propagate the assumption that it's cool, okay, a great form of recreational activity, or of getting to know, enjoy, appreciate, and love nature, the natural world, wildlife, the beauty of wildness, wilderness, and freedom, etc.?
Propaganda you are cool with is saying meat isn’t healthy and that killing animals is okay as long as you do it to protect the carrots🧢🤡
@@lastlime3792 I hear what you are saying, but that isn't me. Many vegans: yes. Me: no. See my other post on cricket farming. Some interesting issues.
And I think the vast majority vegan farming operations and practices are incredibly - if unintentionally or unknowingly - cruel. There is huge room for improvement, but most vegans are too busy pointing their fingers at others and neglecting to examine their own issues, like causing great suffering to billions of highly sentient creatures.
I once adopted three baby rats that were being sold as "feeders" (reptile food). And I raised them. They are playful, intelligent, feeling, loving creatures. Most vegans (1) don't realize this, (2) don't fully appreciate it, (3) are not aware of the suffering their farming practices cause to billions of rodents and a wide variety of other animals, and (4) are not aware that things can be done to improve the situation, and very significantly improve it. And most just don't care enough to do anything about it or trouble themselves to do so.
We had a vote to allow residents in my suburbs to bow hunt! 🤦🏻♀️
@@MdoubleHBxxx.humans didn’t reach the top of the food chain just eating man-made fruits
what about the wild boars in arkansas area? i heard theyre an invasive species introduced for hunting a couple hundred years ago and now theyre a huge problem. is any of that true?
already, for hunting reason. So permitt hunting them to solve problem Is oxymoron
So long as you are hunting for food and not just the head ...I see no issue
Sure but we should be vegan anyways is the point
The issue is shooting an innocent living being who would have preferred not to be shot. You see no issue because you view animals as resources instead of individuals.
Interesting video. Cool times.
Only scavenging is in normal circumstances, and you know how reliable that is.
Interesting enough I've actually visited a small town where they put many of the deer on birth control. It was an area where hunting was strictly prohibited to public. The population was insanely high, and most of the deer were very sickly. They ended up having to hire someone to cull a certain amount every few years quietly. But it was needed since the only predators the deer had were alligators. But it obviously wasn't enough to make a dent in the pop.
in area where hunting Is prohibited deer living longer. So Is the best situation
@cicciomattese not always. Seems you didn't even read my comment. As they were over run with disease and some were literally starving. Where I live there is tags for hunting and it is highly documented. All our deer are healthy. When you get into places where high populations aren't controlled diseases like CWD sky rocket. And it's a horrific disease and a much worse and slow death than a well placed bullet. CWD basically turns them into zombies.
The high deer population doesn't just help human hunters, it also helps predators further up the food chain, many of which have made major comebacks *and* wander into human controlled areas less frequently because of higher deer populations.
Now, whether or not this is part of an incentive to revive the fur industry is hard to say, since it hasn't really happened yet, but certainly there is a lot of boom-bust population growth in habitats not managed by humans, and there could be an argument that humans can provide a tempering influence in preventing mass death (when managed well) or, conversely, exacerbate the issue when managed poorly.
Once again I find myself having to remind Americans that not everyone is in fact American.
Not only can it be ethical, in many ways it is a necessity.
Of course there are cruel ways to hunt and they should be lessened but that doesn't make hunting overall the same cruel action by default.
Only people in food dessert or living in tribes who don’t have enough resources to food in general *need* to hunt, which are like less than 1% of the global population
For majority of the people on earth, especially in developed countries, do not need animal products. You can get all the required nutrients for a human from plant based food
Deer are culled in Scotland otherwise they decimate the land. It's done humanely and quickly and is processed locally by professional huntsman. The locals eat it. No food miles. Perfectly ethical and self sufficient.
@@ramenjd6239anyone with pills doesn’t need to eat whole foods🤡. You are cool with telling people to eat low bioavailable foods cause you want to sound virtuous while simultaneously killing animals and insects and everything else as long as it protects your carrots🧟♀️. If you can’t see killing and eating it is more ethical than killing and tossing in the dumpsters...you are insane(I mean vegan).
" For majority of the people on earth, especially in developed countries, do not need animal products. You can get all the required nutrients for a human from plant based food "
I don't think this is what the OP meant by in many ways it is a necessity.
We also don't need cars, we could walk. Anytime you say "do not need" it will be very hard to win the argument. There are lots of things we don't need, that we actu-ally don't need, cars, washing machines, smartphones,...
Just sayin
@@ebbyc1817 Actually you are incorrect. Did you know some places are completely cut off during the winter months. Most things come in by boat on many small islands. There are no large supermarkets that ship foods in from all over the world. The great thing about these small islands is that they are completely self sufficient. So when there are mass shortages, or the grid goes down they know what to do. It's a lifestyle practiced for centuries...no blender required. No cars either!😁
I have four daughters who are vegan, of course, they are vegan only in virtual space and in front of others, and in real life they all eat meat, just because they want to show themselves as vegan, they think that by doing so, they show that they are special and intellectual people. they are given, otherwise none of them could even eat vegetarian food for two days and they got sick, because the human body needs meat and protein very much... Many vegans are like my cousins, that is, they eat meat in their personal life and They only say in front of others that we are vegetarians,,, now you understand why 98% of the world's people are not ready to accept your vegan thoughts?? Because even most of your members do not follow it
IS HUNTING MUSHROOMS VEGAN ???🤔