Thanks Bill. I really appreciate that you take the time to try and clarify and/or correct bad information and superfluous interpretations of the NEC. Showing and explaining changes and additions are really helpful.
I still go by the rule of thumb of grab the wire with the base of your hand or the tip of the thumb against the edge of the box, and cut at the other side of your hand. no wire shortages, here.
Yeah I have perfect body proportions, that trick my hand is exactly 6", elbow to wrist 12" and between the 2 joints on my pinky 1". Who needs a tape measure?
Yeah, in a standard box, the conductors need to measure 6" from the end of the sheath, and 3" from the edge of the box, but most people at the company I work for just teach us to measure them 6" outside of the box, because it doesn't really hurt to leave extra, and also just in case we're too dumb to not undershoot 3". I just leave 6" outside the box. It's never bitten me, yet, even with a lot of wires in the box. Wires that are a little longer are easier to bend, than shorter wires.
for solid longer is better for makeup, stranded for me i try to get them right at compliance, make up with a bunch of stranded sucks when you got too much
I do like how they clarified that "conductor shall be permitted to be spliced or unspliced". Many times in service work you are provided with the smallest nub of wire in a box and many folks thought you had to run a new cable to fulfill the requirement in the 2020 NEC. Now you just connect a wago with a pigtail and your good to go.
Hey Bill, Billy here and the way I read 300.14 is that there must be 3” extending outside the box if ANY dimension is less than 8”, not unless ONE dimension is 7” or over. In other words, unless all the dimensions are greater than 8”, leave a minimum of 3” outside the box.
Hi John! Sounds good, I have a lot more to come. I got my new 2023 NEC spiral bound book recently and it looks like they were working overtime making changes. I have purchased the 2023 handbook as well, but it hasn't arrived yet. Take care!
Hey sparky, good video. I never measurer my wire from the box, i just follow the rule of thumb, the length of my hand and trim accordingly . Off to watch my nascar , enjoy your Sunday.
This rule really comes into play when extension rings and/or deep mud rings are used. In Chicagoland it's common to see a 1900 bracket box with a 1-1/2" extension ring and 5/8" mud ring at residential switch locations to accommodate box fill requirements. This would add another 2+" to your wire length to be 6" beyond the edge of the finished opening. Not sure why the code says edge of the box and not finished opening? I'm an old electrician who always uses edge of finished opening. I hate short wires!
You and me, both. It's not as if it *must not extend MORE than three inches* outside the opening - an argument I've actually had with some apprentices.
Do you mind answering a question for me? In my attic is a 4x4x2-1/2 junction box. Inside that box is the main feed, and four feeders that feed wall receptacles down below. Best I can tell that means my box is overfilled. I'm sure it's grandfathered in, but I want to be legal. So my question is: Can I overcome the over filled box by installing a 4x4x1-1/2 extension ring w/cover on top of the existing box? Thanks in advance for the response. *Note: The jbox sits in a remote corner of the attic that is not trafficked.
@@im2yys4u81yes that's why they make extension rings. You dont want to be cramming wire in too tight and you don't want heat build up from lack of space.
one thing that been difficult to find out is that the sheathing shall be 1/4" min past the clamp. But what is the max length it can be? for a 4s box? and for Electrical Panel. I saw 18" somewhere (not in the code book) do you know where I can find that info?
A friend of mine is an engineer on the national piping committee. I now understand why these code books are the way they are. My friend constantly lives in a world of what if‘s And is completely driven by fear that the code is not ‘safe’ enough. I picture guys like him on the NEC committee… These are the people that gave you GFI‘s for every circuit in your house driving the consumer absolutely mad.
I do substation engineering. We roll our eyes at the NEC, oh good lord what overaly cautious person wrote this. Sometimes its funny when telecom needs a building and their contractors ask for 12& 14awg wire for normal outlets and im like um we got some spare #6, 1/0, 250mcm, and 4/0. Then they will get mad when they asked for a 200A service, but if im in a good mood we will give them a 2/0 cable because I dont ever think they need need nearly as much power as they think they do.
"From any dimension". IMO, the greatest measurement would be from a front corner of the box to the diagonally opposite REAR corner of the box. Remember, it's a box, not a square. :)
@@glasshalffull2930 The 2020 NEC Handbook has explanitory notes in 300.14 "The length of slack (free conductor) required for the box size is shown in Exhibit 300.12" The exhibit shows square boxes with dimensions measured on each side [not diagonal]. The key is the smaller boxes where the measurement "in any dimension" is LESS than 8" require the 3" extention outside the box. The exhibit shows a larger box (10" on the sides) where the free conductor must still be 6" in length but is not required to extend outside the box. I think the 2023 principle is the same.
Hmm. I just installed a light in my garage, probably didnt make it quite long enough. Oh well, Im not an electrician and dont do permits/or inform the AHJ; not that I would know how to contact them anyway.
I've been doing electrical for many yeats now so I got to ask an honest question. Does anyone actually measure 6" out? I always go with my gut and I've never had an issue. Certainly 12" is too much but I'm always leaning towards longer is better mentality.
Thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated. Question: does the NEC limit the length of the sheathing that enters the box. I know that it has to measure a minimum of 1/4 inch; but, is there a maximum limit?
I'm surprised that measurement isn't taking into consideration the wire gauge - I would think that a set of 10ga or larger wires would fill the box quicker, and that there would be some kind of adjustment table to make those larger wire requirements just a tad shorter. ?
When you say needs to exceed 3” from the edge of the box; does the mean the wire needs to be at least 3 inches long from the edge of the box to the outside of the box?
I disagree on one point. I don't believe that it is 6 inches from the sheath AND 3 inches beyond the edge of the box (for the smaller than 8 inch box). That would be too much wire in certain boxes, thats why you only need 3 past the edge (in my interpretation).
Hello Bill. I have a question not related to this video, but since I trust you for your knowledge and advise, I'm going to ask here. In my master bath I have two exhaust fans that operate off one push button digital switch. That switch is going bad (it shuts off after 4 minutes no matter what time you set it for). What should I be looking for in a replacement?
@@SparkyChannel There is ground wire there, but I'm not sure it goes anywhere, at least not to a legit ground. I do know the original part of the house isnt grounded. I have had electrical work done in the past and it was added to the new stuff and circuits.
@@SparkyChannel think I got it solved. When the contractor put in the new bath, they did run a ground. Whew. I found a Leviton LTB60-1LZ electronic countdown timer. It has a total of 5 wires, one of which is not used (it's for a three way application). I was able to identify the load, line, neutral and ground in the box. Pulled out the switch that was almost dead, and using my Wago Lever Nuts (saw on your channel!) installed it and had it in and working in about 20 minutes. Thank you for the channel and education.
Thanks Bill. I really appreciate that you take the time to try and clarify and/or correct bad information and superfluous interpretations of the NEC. Showing and explaining changes and additions are really helpful.
No problem, my pleasure!
I still go by the rule of thumb of grab the wire with the base of your hand or the tip of the thumb against the edge of the box, and cut at the other side of your hand. no wire shortages, here.
Good tip, thanks Ken!
Yeah I have perfect body proportions, that trick my hand is exactly 6", elbow to wrist 12" and between the 2 joints on my pinky 1". Who needs a tape measure?
Yeah, in a standard box, the conductors need to measure 6" from the end of the sheath, and 3" from the edge of the box, but most people at the company I work for just teach us to measure them 6" outside of the box, because it doesn't really hurt to leave extra, and also just in case we're too dumb to not undershoot 3". I just leave 6" outside the box. It's never bitten me, yet, even with a lot of wires in the box. Wires that are a little longer are easier to bend, than shorter wires.
It's OK to exceed code.
for solid longer is better for makeup, stranded for me i try to get them right at compliance, make up with a bunch of stranded sucks when you got too much
@@JeffPenaify yeah, that’s true.
I do like how they clarified that "conductor shall be permitted to be spliced or unspliced". Many times in service work you are provided with the smallest nub of wire in a box and many folks thought you had to run a new cable to fulfill the requirement in the 2020 NEC. Now you just connect a wago with a pigtail and your good to go.
drives me nuts when the last guy put in a 6 cubic inch box, and barely left enough wire to get a tool onto the terminal screws.
Love those Wagos. Never heard of them until I started watching Sparky 4 years ago, now I keep a good supply on hand.
Excellent point, thanks!
@@im2yys4u81 Me too!
@@kenbrown2808 Been there, done that. 😅
Love hearing these little refreshers and updates to the basics.
Excellent!
I like you explaining the new 2023 code changes. Makes it easier to understand. Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
I appreciate this! It's downright crazy, the arguments people get into about six versus eight inches and just as unproductive here as elsewhere.
It's all right there in the NEC. Thanks Ethel!
Hey Bill, Billy here and the way I read 300.14 is that there must be 3” extending outside the box if ANY dimension is less than 8”, not unless ONE dimension is 7” or over. In other words, unless all the dimensions are greater than 8”, leave a minimum of 3” outside the box.
Thank you! You couldn’t have made it any clearer!!
Glad it helped!
Now these are the videos that I like to see.
I could watch these educational videos all day on (CODE).
Hi John! Sounds good, I have a lot more to come. I got my new 2023 NEC spiral bound book recently and it looks like they were working overtime making changes. I have purchased the 2023 handbook as well, but it hasn't arrived yet. Take care!
I use my pinkie and thumb distance from edge of box. Its about 7" so Im good. 👍
Sounds good!
Thank you for dedicated time to Teach
You're very welcome!
love your channel
Hey sparky, good video. I never measurer my wire from the box, i just follow the rule of thumb, the length of my hand and trim accordingly . Off to watch my nascar , enjoy your Sunday.
Thanks! Who is your fav driver?
@@SparkyChannel #3 Earnhardt sr, 88 Earnhardt jr.
Thanks for the update, Bill! Good information as always.
You bet, thanks Tim!
This rule really comes into play when extension rings and/or deep mud rings are used. In Chicagoland it's common to see a 1900 bracket box with a 1-1/2" extension ring and 5/8" mud ring at residential switch locations to accommodate box fill requirements. This would add another 2+" to your wire length to be 6" beyond the edge of the finished opening. Not sure why the code says edge of the box and not finished opening? I'm an old electrician who always uses edge of finished opening. I hate short wires!
You and me, both. It's not as if it *must not extend MORE than three inches* outside the opening - an argument I've actually had with some apprentices.
I agree, it should be edge of finished opening.
Do you mind answering a question for me? In my attic is a 4x4x2-1/2 junction box. Inside that box is the main feed, and four feeders that feed wall receptacles down below. Best I can tell that means my box is overfilled. I'm sure it's grandfathered in, but I want to be legal. So my question is: Can I overcome the over filled box by installing a 4x4x1-1/2 extension ring w/cover on top of the existing box? Thanks in advance for the response. *Note: The jbox sits in a remote corner of the attic that is not trafficked.
@@im2yys4u81yes that's why they make extension rings. You dont want to be cramming wire in too tight and you don't want heat build up from lack of space.
Enjoyed your video Sparky. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks Bill, enjoy your weekend 😎🛠️😎🛠️😎
I will, you too as well!
one thing that been difficult to find out is that the sheathing shall be 1/4" min past the clamp. But what is the max length it can be? for a 4s box? and for Electrical Panel. I saw 18" somewhere (not in the code book) do you know where I can find that info?
There is no maximum that I know of.
It was helpful!! Thank you!! ☺️
My pleasure, thanks!
A friend of mine is an engineer on the national piping committee. I now understand why these code books are the way they are. My friend constantly lives in a world of what if‘s And is completely driven by fear that the code is not ‘safe’ enough. I picture guys like him on the NEC committee… These are the people that gave you GFI‘s for every circuit in your house driving the consumer absolutely mad.
I do understand!
I do substation engineering. We roll our eyes at the NEC, oh good lord what overaly cautious person wrote this. Sometimes its funny when telecom needs a building and their contractors ask for 12& 14awg wire for normal outlets and im like um we got some spare #6, 1/0, 250mcm, and 4/0. Then they will get mad when they asked for a 200A service, but if im in a good mood we will give them a 2/0 cable because I dont ever think they need need nearly as much power as they think they do.
Thank you so much
Great tips. Thank you Sparky.
No problem, thanks Brian!
Thank you!
You bet!
Great little vid as usual ... Thx for keeping us up to date ...
You bet. thanks Eddy!
Another great explanation of the code! I have also noticed some confusion about changes to box heights.
Thanks! Yes, I've ordered a new 2023 NEC handbook and I'll be interested to see what they have to say.
Thank you
My pleasure, thanks!
Good explanation Sparky.
Thanks Gary!
"From any dimension". IMO, the greatest measurement would be from a front corner of the box to the diagonally opposite REAR corner of the box. Remember, it's a box, not a square.
:)
The beauty of the HANDBOOK version of the NEC is they have explanitory diagrams and examples to clarify interpretation. This one is included.
I'll be interested to see what they say in the 2023 handbook. I've ordered it, but it hasn't arrived yet.
@@paulwheeless1080 It's just a shame that you can't take the Handbook version into a test. :-(
@@paulwheeless1080 And does it measure the diagonal as the greatest dimension as the original poster opined???
@@glasshalffull2930 The 2020 NEC Handbook has explanitory notes in 300.14 "The length of slack (free conductor) required for the box size is shown in Exhibit 300.12" The exhibit shows square boxes with dimensions measured on each side [not diagonal]. The key is the smaller boxes where the measurement "in any dimension" is LESS than 8" require the 3" extention outside the box. The exhibit shows a larger box (10" on the sides) where the free conductor must still be 6" in length but is not required to extend outside the box. I think the 2023 principle is the same.
metal boxes were banned in europe at least 40 years ago...
Interesting, thanks.
Hmm. I just installed a light in my garage, probably didnt make it quite long enough. Oh well, Im not an electrician and dont do permits/or inform the AHJ; not that I would know how to contact them anyway.
I've been doing electrical for many yeats now so I got to ask an honest question.
Does anyone actually measure 6" out?
I always go with my gut and I've never had an issue. Certainly 12" is too much but I'm always leaning towards longer is better mentality.
Most electricians have a quick way to measure without using a tape measure.
Good video!
Thanks Don! Hope you're doing great!
Great video, keep up the good work
Thanks, will do!
Bill do you have an email to reach out for questions? I have a question about hottubes
As always, great videos! So glad to be a Subscriber and “Like” button-smasher!
Awesome! Thank you!
Thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated.
Question: does the NEC limit the length of the sheathing that enters the box. I know that it has to measure a minimum of 1/4 inch; but, is there a maximum limit?
Hii Vince! Great question. I know of no limitation to the maximum of sheathing.
Hello do steel 4 gang boes with mounting brackets need to be supported on the otherside?
I would. I like my boxes to not move at all when plugging in.
@@SparkyChannel The brass walk plate against the drywall should stop it from moving.
Does not include the bit where it is broadcast on , the World Wide Web, no idea where it’s for !
LOL!
Awesome
did you see that dogs tail flip when the board hit that wave?
6:45 I hadn't noticed that😄
I'm surprised that measurement isn't taking into consideration the wire gauge - I would think that a set of 10ga or larger wires would fill the box quicker, and that there would be some kind of adjustment table to make those larger wire requirements just a tad shorter. ?
I understand.
The free conductor length is to ensure there is enough wire to properly install or change/service the devices.
When you say needs to exceed 3” from the edge of the box; does the mean the wire needs to be at least 3 inches long from the edge of the box to the outside of the box?
Or it needs to be 3 inches to reach the inside edge of the box? :)
3" past the edge of the box and 6" long if the box is less than 8" in all dimensions. But please read the code again because I'm paraphrasing.
The rule was 6" from the edge of the box. Now it is 6" from where it enters the box.
I think you need to let an electrician write the code so it’s understandable. Very cool review.
I agree!
Excellent
Thanks Frank!
I disagree on one point. I don't believe that it is 6 inches from the sheath AND 3 inches beyond the edge of the box (for the smaller than 8 inch box). That would be too much wire in certain boxes, thats why you only need 3 past the edge (in my interpretation).
Okay, thanks Jim!
Hello Bill. I have a question not related to this video, but since I trust you for your knowledge and advise, I'm going to ask here. In my master bath I have two exhaust fans that operate off one push button digital switch. That switch is going bad (it shuts off after 4 minutes no matter what time you set it for). What should I be looking for in a replacement?
Would you like another timer switch? What brand do you have now?
@@SparkyChannel Yes on the timer switch. It's been so long since I installed it that I have long forgotten what it is!!
@@oshtoolman That's OK. Do you have a ground available for a new timer switch?
@@SparkyChannel There is ground wire there, but I'm not sure it goes anywhere, at least not to a legit ground. I do know the original part of the house isnt grounded. I have had electrical work done in the past and it was added to the new stuff and circuits.
@@SparkyChannel think I got it solved. When the contractor put in the new bath, they did run a ground. Whew. I found a Leviton LTB60-1LZ electronic countdown timer. It has a total of 5 wires, one of which is not used (it's for a three way application). I was able to identify the load, line, neutral and ground in the box. Pulled out the switch that was almost dead, and using my Wago Lever Nuts (saw on your channel!) installed it and had it in and working in about 20 minutes. Thank you for the channel and education.
Oops, there's no such thing as "NEC code." Do you think you can figure why?
That would be a code code. LOL!
I got it wrong - struck out!
Can you give me the max allowable box fill for a 4x4x2-1/4 j box. I don't own a copy of the NEC, I'm a diyer. Thanks.
A 4" x" x 2 1/8" box is 30.3 cu in. = 12 #10, 10 #8, or 6 #6
@@SparkyChannel Thanks!
6 inches
At 3:25 in transcript, it say's CHEESE ? LOL
LOL!🤣
The correct answer is:
The whole year. You’re welcome.
They using cables instead saying diablo
Minimal length.
Yes, correct.
Who’s the hot girl. 👍
Don't know. I just had my camera with me and thought I'd film it. I don't know how she gets the dog to stay put on the front of her board. LOL!
Who cares! Everyone wants to be a short wire artist.
Seems like it sometimes.
Good content, keep up the good work.
Thanks, will do!