I was one of the engineers who worked on this plane. Specifically, I worked on the Radar and Flir systems. The shape of the plane was classified, but we could tell that it was a flying wing just by some of the details of the Radar and Flir units. Another company had gotten the contracts for the Radar and Flir first, but got so far behind schedule and over budget that the project was taken away from them and given to us. So the day we started working on them, we were already a year behind schedule and were over budget. The Radar system had some issues because they were pushing the limits of technology. The Flir system worked pretty well. Military contracts are always behind schedule and over budget. The government always bailed them out. But in this case, the budget folks were sick and tired of military contractors just assuming that they could go completely over budget and didn't have to worry about it, and they decided to make an example out of this project. When the plane was cancelled, it caught a lot of folks by surprise, and there was quite a bit of controversy about it all. Defense work is very much hire and fire. They hire when they have work, and lay people off when they don't. The cancellation of the A-12 put a LOT of engineers out of work, and I was one of them. At that point I decided that I was tired of the hire and fire attitude and I got completely out of defense work.
Only one full size non-flying mockup was made and it sat for two decades in an open field near Meacham Airport in Ft Worth. It was acquired ten years ago by the Ft Worth Aviation Museum where it still sits, awaiting restoration. I have photographed it many times.
It's still sitting there on a wheeled cart however they now have a small sign out there saying it's next to be displayed to the public. There's a guy out at Meacham who has a fully restored ME-262 he use to fly it a couple of times a month but haven't seen it in several months
My dad worked on the landing gear for this project. It was all secret at the time and as a young lad, I was intrigued by the fact that he couldn't talk about his work at all, and typically found out what he *could* talk about by seeing a news article about the project.
The A-12 mockup currently resides at the Fort Worth Aviation Museum, next to the southeast corner of Meacham International Airport (AKA: Meacham Field.)
The cancelation of this project led to the collapse of McDonnell Douglas. Of course, the DC-10 helped. But the loss of the A-12 was the final nail in the coffin for McDonnell Douglas. Many thousands of jobs were lost. This also began the fall of St. Louis. The St. Louis area also lost two Chrysler auto plants. More and more companies closed factories. Corporations began moving their headquarters out of St. Louis. General Dynamics and Pet Inc. were just two of those who moved out. Today, the St. Louis metro area continues to shrink each year. St. Louis came to hate the man responsible for the cancelation: Sec of Defense Dick Cheney. After the cancelation, McDonnell Douglas was forced to sell itself to Boeing. How sad.
Worked with a guy on the program years ago. He was on A-6's in the Navy and got a job with Grumman after I think. We talked about it one day. According to him there were a LOT more issues they had to work out then anyone expected, but they were getting through them slowly. One thing that wasn't mentioned in the video was the fact that they were just getting into the prototype stage when the Soviet Union collapsed. That was the biggest reason the program was cancelled. Many amazing programs were cancelled simply because we suddenly didn't have any enemies anymore. One thing I do remember was they had designed some of the structure as composites, but when they tried to make them it never worked as composites weren't that well developed. They then had to make the sections out of more usual materials which drove up the weight. But he said the biggest issue they had when cancelled was finding a way to secure composites and metals together. Everything they tried either wouldn't hold or would cause corrosion on the metal parts. That was one of the big reasons they cancelled the upgrades to the Intruders as well since the main part of the upgrade was composite wings. It could have been an amazing aircraft, but as usual it was taken out back by politicians who didn't understand basic concepts, and Cheney in particular (I may be biased, I've always had less than respectful views on the guy) killed it before it had a chance to shine. If you really want to see some wild stuff, in the late 80's all the advanced programs were smashed together. To save money they were supposed to work as one to develop multiple different airframes for multiple different branches for multiple different missions. Originally, the A-12 and F-22 were meant to use the same parts and components for cost savings. Just one more time the government ruined something to save a few bucks.
Only our own government would be stupid enough to believe that our enemies would evaporate away. That kind of thinking got us into a lot of trouble between WW I and the first couple of years of WWII. Us and our allies are probably paying for that kind of thinking in the nineties, today.
You mean A-6s. Those "amazing programs" could have bankrupted the US. Think of what happened in Russia after the fall of the USSR....but happening in the US.
True, but that only covered the A, B, C, and D variants as opposed to the E or the F. He did state that they were essentially different aircraft during the Hornet video.
@@austindixon8645 Yes, the Legacy Hornet and the Super Hornet are completely different animals. They share the same basic look but the Super Hornet is 20% larger with 50% better endurance. It is in actuality a new aircraft from the Legacy F/A-18.
A collaboration? Oh hell yeah! more of these please. Never heard of these either, thank you guys! Idea: The rotary Wankel engine. They've not only been applied to Mazda RX series cars, but they've also been massively scaled up for use powering cargo ships.
Actually, the F-35 project has come a long way by now and is proving it's worth. It needed some fat trimming and for economies of scale to start taking effect, but now that it has, it is no longer thought of a such a wasteful project. As with all ambitious projects that push the edge of tech and design, there is no way of knowing how much it will cost to make something that surpasses everything else that exists currently.
Albeit I'm American, I love the writing style of the drunk uncle bleeding on the curbside. Always good when I can understand your bloody accent and mumbling. Thanks again.
Loving the collaboration on this one. For an aircraft that never existed the CGI models of it really help us get an idea of what this aircraft was all about. I approve this new addition! I've got a suggestion for a future mega project. Hitler's Atlantic Wall.
I loved the A-7. The Inertial Navigation System on that damn little jet was amazing. It had the lowest drift ever seen on an aircraft. 50 to 100 feet of drift per hour of flight had been the norm the past couple of decades until the A-7 rolled in. It was one of the 1st INS in a fighter that could update its position using its terrain following radar or a signal from the local TACAN transmitter (these were the days long before GPS). Incredibly, the maximum INS drift per hour on the A-7 was an unprecedented 1 foot per hour. Insanely accurate even by today's standards. We jokingly said the A-7's INS gyro was "The Pilot's Perfectly Precise, Precession Powered, Plotting Planner." WAY better than the latest laser ring gyro.
At ~2:54 there is a little mistake: You talked of the Grumman A-6 Avanger, meaning the A6 Intruder. The original Grumman TBF Avenger of 1942, was a reliable propeler-plane.
Oh boy. I work for the Navy at the agency that dealt with this debacle. I was there at the end of the saga when the final settlements were made and the whole thing was finely closed. I'm looking at my bookcase and I see an original manufacturer's resin model of the A12 and an A12 Trial Team coffee mug. Yeah, I have stories.
@@BaconGold790 Not much except the canopy story since it's in the public domain. The legal cases are in the public domain and can be looked up. This is public info. The canopy of the not-anywhere-near-finished prototype was a piece of classified hardware. It was sent to a university for research and testing. The fact it was classified was somehow lost over the years and it wound up in a scrap yard. A very savvy militaria collector and seller saw it, knew what it was, bought it, and put it on eBay for ~$200,000. I informed the team the next day and the boss said you're number 5 this morning to tell us.😆 The short story is the Navy paid him a visit. He wanted the Navy to buy it back from him. They didn't. A piece of it is in a place of honor A colleague of mine Jim Stevenson, wrote a book about it, The $5 Billion Misunderstanding: The Collapse of the Navy's A-12 Stealth Bomber Program
@JustaPilot1 I'd love to talk with you about your time with it. I worked JSF for a long time and it was always a story I only heard about through bits and pieces.
I worked at McDonnell Douglas that defaulted on the flying taco chip. We quit and shipped the tooling to our “partner” company. I wasn’t on the program, but the folks that I talked to said that, “It’ll never work”.
Biggest problem was the program structure/management arrangement and poor specs. Defining a clear lead company and eliminating the infighting would have been very helpful.
so this was less of a b2 heavy bomber and more of a CAS project....did not kno that always thought they were built for extreme high altitude bombing...great video
The fundamental reason for the termination was the collapse of the Soviet Union with no follow-on adversary of a comparable threat. Then and only then was the aircraft technical issues brought forward to recover dollars. The F-22 orders also fell from something like 600 to something around 230 as well. China wasn’t on the radar as a threat at the time. The A-6’s had fatigue issues in the wings and there was a re-engineering effort to redesign those but it was cancelled years prior to make way for the A-12. I also think the improved accuracy on munitions also meant aircraft carrying fewer bombs could achieve necessary effect against non-superpower adversaries. The F-18E/F were then developed to carry more ordinance than its predecessor. The B-2 quantities also were cut for the same reasons.
...and today instead of the A-12 we have the B-21 to fill those strike roles. The Raider may not be clad in NAVY markings but it will certainly lead the way for the USN strike aircraft carrying stand-off munitions should it ever be called into combat service. Given Raider is named for the Doolittle Raiders who were guests of the US NAVY for a time who flew their bombing missions from a carrier it all seems rather appropriate. I hope to get to DFW to see the mock-up of the Avenger II someday. Cheers!
I think they still have the only full sized mock-up of the A-12 at the Fort Worth Aviation Museum but I could be wrong, it's been awhile since my last visit.
Request for tor a mega projects video about the Groningen Gas field and the fallout that came after. It's one of the largest in the world and brought NL a S ton of money, but definitely caused some issues.
0:21 Simon, it’s as magnificent as I imagined it would be!! I thought it was bigger though. Simon, this sign is good. It’s actually re-invigorated my soul. However, you’ve gone beyond this sign now Simon. This sign isn’t able to shine, as bright as you Simon. Simon, may I remind you, that you are rich. If you can afford a bloody F 35 joint strike fighter then you can afford a bloody bigger sign!! Simon, you know what needs to be done. And Burnt Titanium is thy NAME!!
- The US Navy needed a replacement for its outdated A6 Avenger attack aircraft. - The Navy launched an Advanced Tactical Aircraft program in 1983 to solicit design proposals. - The winning design needed to operate at long range, carry high payloads, and have stealth capability. - The A-12 Avenger 2 was the Navy's choice for the replacement attack aircraft. - The A-12 had a futuristic design and was nicknamed the "flying dorito of death." - Despite its innovative design, the A-12 was never produced due to cost overruns and technical difficulties.
"with the problems of using a fighter for the attack role" The F/A-18 has been very successful in performing the duties the A-12 would have been performed. It was always designed to be a "self-escorting bomber". And it's performed both attack and bomber roles very well. And the F-15E has been extremely successful as a ground attack platform. With the reinforced fuselages, they are likely to remain in service much longer than the air-to-air variants due to their ability to resist material fatigue. Now ofc, the F-35 will be the plane of choise for attack, strike, and bomber missions.
I believe one reason for cancelling the A-12 was that there was no way it could carry the 2000lb bomb internally. this was a hard requirement in the 80's. Even in desert storm, smart bombs were only a small percentage of ordnance. By 03, round 2, I think the smart bomb may have taken over, and perhaps it may have been realized the 2000lb was no longer a hard requirement for carrier strikes, something that could be relegated to air force B-1. A10 is meant to fly over the battlefield, not penetrate radar air defenses. hence the 250 mi combat range is fine to take off from forward airbase, loiter over the battlefield, attack enemy tanks at the front line, etc. the A12 needed to fly from a carrier, which ideally should be hundreds of miles from the enemy coast, then penetrate radar defenses, attack high value targets which may be hundreds of miles inland. The A10 was designed on a budget. I would be inclined to think that putting 00's engine with bigger fan would allow it to takeoff from a LHA/D making it an excellent choice for Marine close-air support, tough enough to survive and not too expensive that it would not be worth risking to takeout enemy tanks and strong points. In this, the F35 is a horrible choice for CAS not because it cannot do so, but rather it is too expensive to risk to take out much lower value targets
The F/A-18 Hornet was designed from the start to be able to perform the attack mission. It replaced the F-4 Phantom and the A-7 Corsair. It's not clear why Simon suggests that it was some sort of last minute stopgap for the attack role.
It kinda was in a way. The Navy and Air Force at the time had a doctrine developed at the time for stealth aircraft. The F-14's and F-15's would be the defense. Stealth aircraft like the F-117 and A-12 would have been the spearhead for the attack (Look at how they used the F-117's in Desert Storm). They would target air defense and command and control in the opening stages, hence why A-12's were designed to carry HARM's. After all that, THEN the non-stealthy aircraft like F-16's, F/A-18's and the like would move in to target whatever was left while the stealthy jets continued to pound high value targets and any remaining air defenses. With the cancellation of the A-12 program the Navy was forced to find a stopgap for that role, which was the Hornet. They even wound up developing the F-14 into a strike aircraft since the legacy Hornets really weren't as great as hoped. The Super Hornet was the one that really filled the role they needed.
The Hornet did replace the F-4 and A-7, but not the A-6 that the A-12 was meant to replace. F/A-18's were really Light Attack Aircraft, when used in that role. The A-12, (ATA), would have been a Medium Attack Aircraft and could have carried a greater load in fewer sorties. The A-12's would also have had a vastly smaller Radar Cross Section (RCS) so they could have survived when used in a first-wave attack on high-value targets..
One obvious question that was not addressed: Why did the NGC/Vaught team no-bid? Unobtainium requirements? Looks like they saw the train wreck coming...
@@Idahoguy10157 True. Remote piloting of attack/bomber aircraft is the direction we are going. A further initiative now is “swarm”. Multiple drones all flying like a flock of birds with synchronized movements. There was a reason why the F-35 was less of a fighter and more of a data hub.
9:50 Why are they making fun of the shape? In the thumbnail it looked like something came up over the top, but it looks quite similar to the Stealth Bomber.
The A-6 (often referred as the 'iron tadpole' (for its fuselage shape) was far from outdated. The E's and Fs (never built) had lightyears better electronics than the airframes age would suggest. Plus, they were ungodly tough. Legend says that if damaged one aboard ship without killing yourself, that was an ACHIEVEMENT worthy of note.
It really is a shame that this program ended how it did. Obviously for monetary reasons the plug had to be pulled, and now the only confirmed article in existence is rusting away at an aviation museum in fort Worth, Texas. Even if someone wanted to view that demonstrator, that article is bound up in a legal dispute between the city of fort Worth and other firms, and as it was a outdoor display, the elements took its toll. It now rests under a tarp, out of public view. There are some photos that people online use to imply that there are air frames used as test beds, but we will never know. Or at least, too old to care to file a FOIA request on it.
11:20 1) I’m kind of surprised the Navy was denied funding. Funding to other essential areas is constantly cut while the military budget increases - the military has always been the most important thing to the government. 2) It probably would have been to expensive, but if it needed to be metal, but light, what about aluminum or titanium? So many cellphones have been touted as composed of “anodized airplane aluminum”.
As a metallurgical engineer: Composites will never replace metals in their entirety. Composites have their place. Sounds like marketing was not listening to engineering.
The navy was offered an updated design of the F-14. One of the major updates was the change from analog to digital electronics. this would have solved about 75-80% of the problems with the maintenance of the F-14. The navy, with the idea keeping things simple decided that the f-14 could cover all that it needed. Bad decision, the F-18 doesn't have the range or carrying capacity that the updated F-14 would have had. So our carriers are kept the carriers further away from the Chinese coasts then is good for them or the USA. The F-18 is a good plane but suffers from the idea, as do many other things, what we need is a jack-of-all-trades but the second half of the quote states the problem, Master of none. Good example is the F-35 family but at least finally realized they needed 3.
At least one prototype was built. At least partially. If you go on google earth. Then go back to April 2013. Look at the north side of the Fort Worth Navel Air Station Airport. There is a small junk yard with a main fuselage section sitting out in the open.
The video game HAWX includes the A-12 as a playable aircraft. The game uses a slightly different design where the engines are under the fuselage instead of on top. At least the plane received life digitally.
Can we get a video on the C-17 Globemaster? I know transport planes don't get alot of shine, they aren't "cool" like the fighters and stealth planes but I spent many years as a crew cheif on that bird. It truly is a great aircraft.
You realize that the F22 has been adapted to a ground attack role. The F35 is also fully capable of targeting the ground without (pointing at the ground). Now sure I the 80s off bore targeting was somewhat off the ground, but then bombs could work.
What killed it was that the navy wanted it,which would have been a maintainance nightmare on an aircraft carrier, adding way too much design trouble to land on one. Trying to get one platform to do everything doesn`t always save you money .
Talk about the new SR-??. hypersonic aircraft capable of ground skiming or the most likely use suborbital, near orbital spy missions. Im still hoping that thing gets a bomb bay for bombs and missles.
I was one of the engineers who worked on this plane. Specifically, I worked on the Radar and Flir systems. The shape of the plane was classified, but we could tell that it was a flying wing just by some of the details of the Radar and Flir units. Another company had gotten the contracts for the Radar and Flir first, but got so far behind schedule and over budget that the project was taken away from them and given to us. So the day we started working on them, we were already a year behind schedule and were over budget. The Radar system had some issues because they were pushing the limits of technology. The Flir system worked pretty well. Military contracts are always behind schedule and over budget. The government always bailed them out. But in this case, the budget folks were sick and tired of military contractors just assuming that they could go completely over budget and didn't have to worry about it, and they decided to make an example out of this project. When the plane was cancelled, it caught a lot of folks by surprise, and there was quite a bit of controversy about it all. Defense work is very much hire and fire. They hire when they have work, and lay people off when they don't. The cancellation of the A-12 put a LOT of engineers out of work, and I was one of them. At that point I decided that I was tired of the hire and fire attitude and I got completely out of defense work.
No you didn't. If you had you just violated a bunch of NDAs. Go home boomer.
That’s some fascinating behind the scenes info, thanks for sharing.
is it just a rip off of the Vulcan bomber?
Holy shit! Thank you man! I’ve always wanted to hear what one of you guys had to say on projects like this one. You’re a big bloody champion.
Thanks for providing insight!
The brittish ”Skylon” would be a good idea to talk about. Or the swedish coastal defence during the cold war! Good channel, thumbs up!
is this that swedish system that keeps russian subs away by broadcasting "come here if you are gay?" (not a joke look it up)
Yes please, both please!
Skylon is awesome. I would even add that the engines alone could be worth their own video
witch part of swedens coastal defence?
@@extec101 towards the east
Absolutely bloody fantastic stuff. I feel like a big kid again watching this channel.
Only one full size non-flying mockup was made and it sat for two decades in an open field near Meacham Airport in Ft Worth. It was acquired ten years ago by the Ft Worth Aviation Museum where it still sits, awaiting restoration. I have photographed it many times.
Its a work of art and truly deserves to be seen. Have you posted them on Airliners??
Google flying triangle Wichita and you might change your mind!
It's still sitting there on a wheeled cart however they now have a small sign out there saying it's next to be displayed to the public.
There's a guy out at Meacham who has a fully restored ME-262 he use to fly it a couple of times a month but haven't seen it in several months
“The flying Dorito of death…” 😅 Love it!
My dad worked on the landing gear for this project. It was all secret at the time and as a young lad, I was intrigued by the fact that he couldn't talk about his work at all, and typically found out what he *could* talk about by seeing a news article about the project.
So what?
The A-12 mockup currently resides at the Fort Worth Aviation Museum, next to the southeast corner of Meacham International Airport (AKA: Meacham Field.)
The cancelation of this project led to the collapse of McDonnell Douglas. Of course, the DC-10 helped. But the loss of the A-12 was the final nail in the coffin for McDonnell Douglas.
Many thousands of jobs were lost.
This also began the fall of St. Louis. The St. Louis area also lost two Chrysler auto plants. More and more companies closed factories. Corporations began moving their headquarters out of St. Louis. General Dynamics and Pet Inc. were just two of those who moved out.
Today, the St. Louis metro area continues to shrink each year.
St. Louis came to hate the man responsible for the cancelation: Sec of Defense Dick Cheney.
After the cancelation, McDonnell Douglas was forced to sell itself to Boeing.
How sad.
Yep - don't forget we lost the YF-23, A-12 _and_ the LHX in quick succession.
Here’s me thinking MD bought Boeing hence its downfall.
Worked with a guy on the program years ago. He was on A-6's in the Navy and got a job with Grumman after I think. We talked about it one day. According to him there were a LOT more issues they had to work out then anyone expected, but they were getting through them slowly. One thing that wasn't mentioned in the video was the fact that they were just getting into the prototype stage when the Soviet Union collapsed. That was the biggest reason the program was cancelled. Many amazing programs were cancelled simply because we suddenly didn't have any enemies anymore.
One thing I do remember was they had designed some of the structure as composites, but when they tried to make them it never worked as composites weren't that well developed. They then had to make the sections out of more usual materials which drove up the weight. But he said the biggest issue they had when cancelled was finding a way to secure composites and metals together. Everything they tried either wouldn't hold or would cause corrosion on the metal parts. That was one of the big reasons they cancelled the upgrades to the Intruders as well since the main part of the upgrade was composite wings.
It could have been an amazing aircraft, but as usual it was taken out back by politicians who didn't understand basic concepts, and Cheney in particular (I may be biased, I've always had less than respectful views on the guy) killed it before it had a chance to shine.
If you really want to see some wild stuff, in the late 80's all the advanced programs were smashed together. To save money they were supposed to work as one to develop multiple different airframes for multiple different branches for multiple different missions. Originally, the A-12 and F-22 were meant to use the same parts and components for cost savings. Just one more time the government ruined something to save a few bucks.
Cheney also killed the Tomcat upgrades, so fuck that guy.
Only our own government would be stupid enough to believe that our enemies would evaporate away. That kind of thinking got us into a lot of trouble between WW I and the first couple of years of WWII. Us and our allies are probably paying for that kind of thinking in the nineties, today.
However the trailing edge of the AC and "demostrator" showed that the ac was a failure in rcs, even with changes, just look at sneekypete.
Not to mention, noone actually wanted it, like stated.
You mean A-6s. Those "amazing programs" could have bankrupted the US. Think of what happened in Russia after the fall of the USSR....but happening in the US.
I'd be pretty interested in seeing something on the Super Hornet and how it ended doing the jobs of both the Tomcat and the Intruder.
A Megaprojects on the F18 has already been made 🐝
True, but that only covered the A, B, C, and D variants as opposed to the E or the F. He did state that they were essentially different aircraft during the Hornet video.
@@austindixon8645
Well, as close as you can get for the time being then
I suppose so
@@austindixon8645 Yes, the Legacy Hornet and the Super Hornet are completely different animals. They share the same basic look but the Super Hornet is 20% larger with 50% better endurance. It is in actuality a new aircraft from the Legacy F/A-18.
PilotPhotog and Megaprojects is the crossover I never knew I needed until now.
Glad you enjoyed it!
A collaboration? Oh hell yeah! more of these please. Never heard of these either, thank you guys!
Idea:
The rotary Wankel engine. They've not only been applied to Mazda RX series cars, but they've also been massively scaled up for use powering cargo ships.
What cargo ships use a rotary engine?
Thank you glad you enjoyed the collab!
A ROTARY CARGOSHIP?????????????????????????????????
I'm glad you touched on the absurdity of the F-35 program here. Compared to that, the A-12 program was a paragon of financial virtue.
reformer schtick yet again
Actually, the F-35 project has come a long way by now and is proving it's worth. It needed some fat trimming and for economies of scale to start taking effect, but now that it has, it is no longer thought of a such a wasteful project. As with all ambitious projects that push the edge of tech and design, there is no way of knowing how much it will cost to make something that surpasses everything else that exists currently.
2:05 - Chapter 1 - Design & development
5:40 - Chapter 2 - Specs & expected capabilities
10:00 - Chapter 3 - Death of the dorrito
It's hard to overstate how badly the A12 screwed Navair, the problems created by it are still affecting air wings severely
Looking good, Simon! Great editing! Always love it when you talk about war machines ❤
Albeit I'm American, I love the writing style of the drunk uncle bleeding on the curbside. Always good when I can understand your bloody accent and mumbling. Thanks again.
Loving the collaboration on this one. For an aircraft that never existed the CGI models of it really help us get an idea of what this aircraft was all about. I approve this new addition!
I've got a suggestion for a future mega project. Hitler's Atlantic Wall.
Done a couple of years ago "The Atlantic Wall: The Nazi Defence of Europe"
@@barrysmithers5816 Oh Cool! That one slipped me by. I shall check that out. Cheers dude. 😀
The collab I never saw coming, more please.
I loved the A-7. The Inertial Navigation System on that damn little jet was amazing. It had the lowest drift ever seen on an aircraft. 50 to 100 feet of drift per hour of flight had been the norm the past couple of decades until the A-7 rolled in. It was one of the 1st INS in a fighter that could update its position using its terrain following radar or a signal from the local TACAN transmitter (these were the days long before GPS). Incredibly, the maximum INS drift per hour on the A-7 was an unprecedented 1 foot per hour. Insanely accurate even by today's standards. We jokingly said the A-7's INS gyro was "The Pilot's Perfectly Precise, Precession Powered, Plotting Planner." WAY better than the latest laser ring gyro.
Great colab! Love PilotPhotog's content.
At ~2:54 there is a little mistake: You talked of the Grumman A-6 Avanger, meaning the A6 Intruder. The original Grumman TBF Avenger of 1942, was a reliable propeler-plane.
I worked indirectly on it. The lies told, by the managers, drove me away to other projects.
Oh boy. I work for the Navy at the agency that dealt with this debacle. I was there at the end of the saga when the final settlements were made and the whole thing was finely closed.
I'm looking at my bookcase and I see an original manufacturer's resin model of the A12 and an A12 Trial Team coffee mug.
Yeah, I have stories.
That’s interesting, any stories you care to share?
@@BaconGold790 Not much except the canopy story since it's in the public domain. The legal cases are in the public domain and can be looked up.
This is public info.
The canopy of the not-anywhere-near-finished prototype was a piece of classified hardware. It was sent to a university for research and testing. The fact it was classified was somehow lost over the years and it wound up in a scrap yard. A very savvy militaria collector and seller saw it, knew what it was, bought it, and put it on eBay for ~$200,000. I informed the team the next day and the boss said you're number 5 this morning to tell us.😆
The short story is the Navy paid him a visit. He wanted the Navy to buy it back from him. They didn't. A piece of it is in a place of honor
A colleague of mine Jim Stevenson, wrote a book about it,
The $5 Billion Misunderstanding: The Collapse of the Navy's A-12 Stealth Bomber Program
@JustaPilot1 I'd love to talk with you about your time with it. I worked JSF for a long time and it was always a story I only heard about through bits and pieces.
So what?
@@dragonsdynamite6403 Feel better now?
"Dorito of Death!"
HAHAHHA!! That was great!
And speaking of Navy attack aircraft, we're definitely overdue for a video of the A-6 Intruder/EA-6 Prowler.
I worked at McDonnell Douglas that defaulted on the flying taco chip. We quit and shipped the tooling to our “partner” company. I wasn’t on the program, but the folks that I talked to said that, “It’ll never work”.
So what?
I loved the @pilotphotog / Megaprojects collaboration! My two favorite RUclips channels working together.
The new computer graphics animations look amazing. I'll look forward to seeing more in future videos!
Biggest problem was the program structure/management arrangement and poor specs. Defining a clear lead company and eliminating the infighting would have been very helpful.
Hi gang, love the new animations, fantastic job! Can't wait to see where this goes in the future on Megaprojects!
Up next: Meet the US's Top Secret corkscrew-based land-to-air missile design. AKA, the Flying Frito
No one says anything smart ass when the thumbnail is on point
This is now my favorite episode with Leanne Kreischer as a close second. Cant wait for Christina P!
A great collaboration 👍🏼👍🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Using attack aircraft in the age of cheap long range drones is like using battleships in the age of aircraft carriers and anti-ship missiles
The crazy thing is that the NGAD aircraft designs are so much similar to the Dorito.
PilotPhotog makes some amazing models and videos
Great job.. looks like the R&D may have lived through the new drone?
Convergent evolution.
triangle is simply the optimal stealth shape.
Nice video about A-12 Avenger II Stealth bombers utilized against Baghdad...
Pilotphotog is a quality channel
so this was less of a b2 heavy bomber and more of a CAS project....did not kno that always thought they were built for extreme high altitude bombing...great video
9:36 I KNEW there was something hinky about the F117 - the ailerons appear to work via sorcery 😲
Excellent stuff bro
The Avenger II is beautiful and Amazing
When i was 11, early 1990s, i got to see the mockup of this at Carswell AFB in a hangar next to the front fuselage of a B-36
The fundamental reason for the termination was the collapse of the Soviet Union with no follow-on adversary of a comparable threat. Then and only then was the aircraft technical issues brought forward to recover dollars. The F-22 orders also fell from something like 600 to something around 230 as well. China wasn’t on the radar as a threat at the time. The A-6’s had fatigue issues in the wings and there was a re-engineering effort to redesign those but it was cancelled years prior to make way for the A-12. I also think the improved accuracy on munitions also meant aircraft carrying fewer bombs could achieve necessary effect against non-superpower adversaries. The F-18E/F were then developed to carry more ordinance than its predecessor.
The B-2 quantities also were cut for the same reasons.
Forbidden giant chocolate Dorito
Tastes like freedom!
I found oil
You know, looking at the 'Avenger II' head on, you can’t help but see a striking resemblance to the German 'Horten Ho 229'.
Megaproject suggestion. Can you cover the history of the Chev 350 engine
Second. Not a gm guy but you can’t deny the genius of the sbc
The Navy should have kept the A6 or A7 until a suitable replacement was procured. Yes both the A6 & A7 were subsonic but both excelled in their roll.
Ironically this design looks alot like the drones now being tested used by the Navy now in 2023 to be used as UAV tankers...
Fancinating...
The Dorito of Death......way to cool.😮
...and today instead of the A-12 we have the B-21 to fill those strike roles. The Raider may not be clad in NAVY markings but it will certainly lead the way for the USN strike aircraft carrying stand-off munitions should it ever be called into combat service. Given Raider is named for the Doolittle Raiders who were guests of the US NAVY for a time who flew their bombing missions from a carrier it all seems rather appropriate. I hope to get to DFW to see the mock-up of the Avenger II someday. Cheers!
This is great! Really enjoyed the vid! Could you take a run at the peacekeeper bomber sometime? I already consider you a couple. 😘🤣
I think they still have the only full sized mock-up of the A-12 at the Fort Worth Aviation Museum but I could be wrong, it's been awhile since my last visit.
Request for tor a mega projects video about the Groningen Gas field and the fallout that came after. It's one of the largest in the world and brought NL a S ton of money, but definitely caused some issues.
0:21 Simon, it’s as magnificent as I imagined it would be!!
I thought it was bigger though.
Simon, this sign is good. It’s actually re-invigorated my soul. However, you’ve gone beyond this sign now Simon. This sign isn’t able to shine, as bright as you Simon.
Simon, may I remind you, that you are rich. If you can afford a bloody F 35 joint strike fighter then you can afford a bloody bigger sign!!
Simon, you know what needs to be done. And Burnt Titanium is thy NAME!!
For how many channels is this one man the mouthpiece? He's great, but I prefer traditional channels where the host is also the editor and researcher.
Blast from the past… It looks very similar to the German Horten 229 from 1945 !!!!
Or Northrop N-1M
Or YB-35
...You do realize that US worked on flying wings for decade before WW2, right?
Failure is the part of life & country 🏁
1:05 Did I hear that right?? A brit said chip instead of crisp? Someone rush the man to a hospital, somethings wrong!
Simon in 20 years- They were using it the whole time!
- The US Navy needed a replacement for its outdated A6 Avenger attack aircraft.
- The Navy launched an Advanced Tactical Aircraft program in 1983 to solicit design proposals.
- The winning design needed to operate at long range, carry high payloads, and have stealth capability.
- The A-12 Avenger 2 was the Navy's choice for the replacement attack aircraft.
- The A-12 had a futuristic design and was nicknamed the "flying dorito of death."
- Despite its innovative design, the A-12 was never produced due to cost overruns and technical difficulties.
Project green glow would be a good idea for a video
"with the problems of using a fighter for the attack role" The F/A-18 has been very successful in performing the duties the A-12 would have been performed. It was always designed to be a "self-escorting bomber". And it's performed both attack and bomber roles very well. And the F-15E has been extremely successful as a ground attack platform. With the reinforced fuselages, they are likely to remain in service much longer than the air-to-air variants due to their ability to resist material fatigue. Now ofc, the F-35 will be the plane of choise for attack, strike, and bomber missions.
Wish this aircraft was introduced in the Ace Combat franchise.
I believe one reason for cancelling the A-12 was that there was no way it could carry the 2000lb bomb internally.
this was a hard requirement in the 80's. Even in desert storm, smart bombs were only a small percentage of ordnance.
By 03, round 2, I think the smart bomb may have taken over, and perhaps it may have been realized the 2000lb was no longer a hard requirement for carrier strikes, something that could be relegated to air force B-1.
A10 is meant to fly over the battlefield, not penetrate radar air defenses.
hence the 250 mi combat range is fine to take off from forward airbase, loiter over the battlefield, attack enemy tanks at the front line, etc.
the A12 needed to fly from a carrier, which ideally should be hundreds of miles from the enemy coast, then penetrate radar defenses, attack high value targets which may be hundreds of miles inland.
The A10 was designed on a budget. I would be inclined to think that putting 00's engine with bigger fan would allow it to takeoff from a LHA/D making it an excellent choice for Marine close-air support, tough enough to survive and not too expensive that it would not be worth risking to takeout enemy tanks and strong points. In this, the F35 is a horrible choice for CAS not because it cannot do so, but rather it is too expensive to risk to take out much lower value targets
I seen some A 10's flying over Kansas today.
just like with concept cars, the coolest designs never make it into reality...
My guess is the NAXX(?) is going to look like a modern version of the A-12.
A shame the Avenger never got a legacy aircraft for real. It is my favorite WWII aircraft
When people see the NGAD they're going to recall the Dorito that never was.
14:34 What wrong with having a fighter take on an attack role? Unless he means a fighter as a bomber, thus subpar payload?
The F/A-18 Hornet was designed from the start to be able to perform the attack mission. It replaced the F-4 Phantom and the A-7 Corsair. It's not clear why Simon suggests that it was some sort of last minute stopgap for the attack role.
It kinda was in a way. The Navy and Air Force at the time had a doctrine developed at the time for stealth aircraft. The F-14's and F-15's would be the defense. Stealth aircraft like the F-117 and A-12 would have been the spearhead for the attack (Look at how they used the F-117's in Desert Storm). They would target air defense and command and control in the opening stages, hence why A-12's were designed to carry HARM's.
After all that, THEN the non-stealthy aircraft like F-16's, F/A-18's and the like would move in to target whatever was left while the stealthy jets continued to pound high value targets and any remaining air defenses.
With the cancellation of the A-12 program the Navy was forced to find a stopgap for that role, which was the Hornet. They even wound up developing the F-14 into a strike aircraft since the legacy Hornets really weren't as great as hoped. The Super Hornet was the one that really filled the role they needed.
The Hornet did replace the F-4 and A-7, but not the A-6 that the A-12 was meant to replace. F/A-18's were really Light Attack Aircraft, when used in that role. The A-12, (ATA), would have been a Medium Attack Aircraft and could have carried a greater load in fewer sorties. The A-12's would also have had a vastly smaller Radar Cross Section (RCS) so they could have survived when used in a first-wave attack on high-value targets..
One obvious question that was not addressed: Why did the NGC/Vaught team no-bid? Unobtainium requirements? Looks like they saw the train wreck coming...
Could the basic design of A-12 Avenger be used to design a new longer range attack aircraft?
Drone
@@blackhawk7r221 …. It would be similar to the B-21. Supposed to be flown either manned, or unmanned.
@@Idahoguy10157 True. Remote piloting of attack/bomber aircraft is the direction we are going. A further initiative now is “swarm”. Multiple drones all flying like a flock of birds with synchronized movements. There was a reason why the F-35 was less of a fighter and more of a data hub.
9:50 Why are they making fun of the shape? In the thumbnail it looked like something came up over the top, but it looks quite similar to the Stealth Bomber.
The A-6 (often referred as the 'iron tadpole' (for its fuselage shape) was far from outdated. The E's and Fs (never built) had lightyears better electronics than the airframes age would suggest. Plus, they were ungodly tough. Legend says that if damaged one aboard ship without killing yourself, that was an ACHIEVEMENT worthy of note.
Doritos of Death -love it
When did it have a sawtooth edge on the back, that's a new one on me, and I've known about this plane since I was a teenager in the early nineties
It really is a shame that this program ended how it did. Obviously for monetary reasons the plug had to be pulled, and now the only confirmed article in existence is rusting away at an aviation museum in fort Worth, Texas. Even if someone wanted to view that demonstrator, that article is bound up in a legal dispute between the city of fort Worth and other firms, and as it was a outdoor display, the elements took its toll. It now rests under a tarp, out of public view. There are some photos that people online use to imply that there are air frames used as test beds, but we will never know. Or at least, too old to care to file a FOIA request on it.
11:20 1) I’m kind of surprised the Navy was denied funding. Funding to other essential areas is constantly cut while the military budget increases - the military has always been the most important thing to the government.
2) It probably would have been to expensive, but if it needed to be metal, but light, what about aluminum or titanium? So many cellphones have been touted as composed of “anodized airplane aluminum”.
New graphics were awesome
Well, we can see why Vought, Northrop, and Grumman didn't put Forward a design. At the time it wasn't possible at the price
I loved my time in the A6
As a metallurgical engineer: Composites will never replace metals in their entirety. Composites have their place. Sounds like marketing was not listening to engineering.
Ironically, Age of Ultron (Avengers 2) has made around $2bn through cinematic release, home video, streaming & merchandising over the last 10 years! 😎
The F-14 was actually a very good ground attack aircraft. It was put out to pasture much too soon.
The airframes were just worn out. They had reached the point where they could no longer safely conduct carrier operations.
Still in use by Iran (the only export customer).
The navy was offered an updated design of the F-14. One of the major updates was the change from analog to digital electronics. this would have solved about 75-80% of the problems with the maintenance of the F-14. The navy, with the idea keeping things simple decided that the f-14 could cover all that it needed. Bad decision, the F-18 doesn't have the range or carrying capacity that the updated F-14 would have had. So our carriers are kept the carriers further away from the Chinese coasts then is good for them or the USA.
The F-18 is a good plane but suffers from the idea, as do many other things, what we need is a jack-of-all-trades but the second half of the quote states the problem, Master of none.
Good example is the F-35 family but at least finally realized they needed 3.
At least one prototype was built. At least partially. If you go on google earth. Then go back to April 2013. Look at the north side of the Fort Worth Navel Air Station Airport. There is a small junk yard with a main fuselage section sitting out in the open.
The video game HAWX includes the A-12 as a playable aircraft. The game uses a slightly different design where the engines are under the fuselage instead of on top. At least the plane received life digitally.
Darth Cheny's come to deathstar moment.
Cooler heads had a dose of reality when they figured out that it was nothing more than a tiny horizontal bomber that could not actually ground attack.
Reach exceeded grasp, which kills almost every project
All this talk of Doritos made me hungry. Good thing I had something to eat.
Can we get a video on the C-17 Globemaster?
I know transport planes don't get alot of shine, they aren't "cool" like the fighters and stealth planes but I spent many years as a crew cheif on that bird.
It truly is a great aircraft.
The title of this video should have been "The Flying Dorito of Death" haha
You realize that the F22 has been adapted to a ground attack role. The F35 is also fully capable of targeting the ground without (pointing at the ground). Now sure I the 80s off bore targeting was somewhat off the ground, but then bombs could work.
What killed it was that the navy wanted it,which would have been a maintainance nightmare on an aircraft carrier, adding way too much design trouble to land on one. Trying to get one platform to do everything doesn`t always save you money .
Talk about the new SR-??. hypersonic aircraft capable of ground skiming or the most likely use suborbital, near orbital spy missions. Im still hoping that thing gets a bomb bay for bombs and missles.