Why the Derailment at Curve 18 Happened
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2021
- My theory on why our derailment happened. Plus an
explanation of how a rail car negotiates a curve and what can happen if the
car truck set doesn't swivel (steers) through a curve like it was designed to do.
If my theory is correct then this would be classified as a wheel climb derailment.
It has also been called flange climb. A worn out flange and a lot of curve wear
on the rail can be contributing factors, but the rail in this case had negligible wear
on the inside of the rail head and the flanges on the leading wheel set also exhibited
wear within the permissible range.
The angle the front wheel on the truck set encounters the rail in a curve is called
the yaw angle. In the video I said that car wheels can come off when track gage
is 59 inches, my error, I meant 59 1/2 inches. On Class 2 track like we have the maximum allowed gage by Fed. law is 57 3/4 inches. The gage on the track immediately before the spikes started pulling was 56 3/4 inches, well within specs of where it should be.
Typical track gage is 56 1/2 inches.
Code Fed Regulations also states that on Class 2 track on curves over 2 degrees
the minimum number of good cross ties is 9 per 39 foot rail section. When the RR contractor rebuilt the part where the rails started pulling spikes, they only
replaced 4 ties within 2 rail sections, they deemed that all the other ties met
CFR regulations. There are typically 21 ties per 39 foot section. With that said,
only replacing 4 out of 42 ties, there is no way that bad ties caused the
derailment. Also the tie gang had went thru this entire section 3 1/2 years ago.
Curve 18 is on a very slight down grade. The lead loco was in throttle run 5, the rear DPU
was in 3. The operator just was taking the throttle off both locos when it went
into emergency. Both locos are EMD SD 38-2 rated at 2,000 HP.
If my theory as stated in the video is correct, the rear DPU pushing the last cars
certainly did not help matters and may very well have been a contributing factor,
but I don't believe the cause. We have been running this push pull system since 1999.
This is the first time an event has happened like this on this curve or any other
sharp degree curve, so I highly doubt that the rear unit pushing actually caused
the derailment, but again, with a bad truck set it very well could have exacerbated
the derailment.
Sorry, derailment happened on Wednesday, not Thursday as I said in the video.
Next video coming up will be on what damage happened to the locomotive.
I've got many more videos coming up on the track repair work that occurred
so stay tuned and thank you very much for watching, it is appreciated!
See the first vid about the derailment on my channel, I am
also making a playlist there of all the derailment videos I will be soon posting
for you.
/ @ccrx6700
On the Community Tab on my channel I will be posting many still pictures
of the events if you would like to view them.
Protect that ring from the weather and call in a metallurgist. The fractures can be inspected under a microscope to determine if they were fatigue (rust and sandy beach lines along the direction of crack propagation), or sudden fracture from the rolling of the car. The fracture can also be analyzed by x-ray to determine if there were residual stresses in that ring.
+1 NDT reports are extremely valuable. A good NDT guy will also give professional suggestions on maintenance/service life and how to to prevent the failure.
Magnaflux
Sounds like an excellent suggestion John, I will pass that info
along to the powers that be. Appreciate your watching sir
Cracks in the bolster bowl rings are a common occurrence. Not so much with the 16” bowls but does still happen . Looks like a failure in the weld, some people have trouble welding the stainless steel ring in the steel bolster .
@@gavanhillebold3131 I haven't heard that term Magna Flux in decades...I know it works very well, way better than Flash Light and/or human eye as well.......
Now the question is who becomes the fall person behind this maintenence issue?
Flanges have been 1” deep when new, up to 1½” deep when the tread is worn out, back into the 1800s. It was found by trial-and-error that deeper flanges do not help. Most steering of the axles is by the tread taper, which is about 3°. Then a fillet radius between the tread and flange does added steering or guidance when the tread taper is not enough. If the flanges contact the side of the rail head a loud screeching sound is made.
Back when car wheels were chilled cast iron the flanges had a larger radius on the back side of the wheel to support the relatively brittle cast iron. Today’s wheels are forged steel. Wheels are flat on the back side.
In other countries four wheel cars, carriages, wagons are still common. The axles do not swivel.
In most Eurasiaafrican countries spikes are not used. They use bolts with clips or springs that clamp the rail snugly to the crossties, sleepers (UK).
Very good explanation Al, thank you for posting, also to add a
bit the deep flanges are prone to hit tops of joint bars, not
a good thing! I can always tell when a wheel tread has too much wear, I'll see scratch marks on the joint bar tops in curves
In addition to joint or angle bars, if a flange exceeds the maximum allowed depth, it will ride on the metal part of frog that separates the frog point and wing rail causing the wheel to ride high through the frog resulting in the wheel tread to lose contact with the frog rail--a BAD thing, for then the car weight on that wheel is supported only by the flange and not the wheel tread.
Empty car-bad. Loaded 100 ton car-that's about 12-1/2 tons on that flange. The flange cannot stand that for long.
@@glennfoster2423 When car wheels were chilled cast iron for the flanges of a loaded car to hit the throat of a frog could cause the brittle cast iron to break off.
One fellow, touring a railroad switch yard, noticed an old fellow standing in a pit by the track. As each car rolled slowly past, he hit each passing wheel with a hammer. The visitor watched for a few minutes before asking, “Hope you don't mind me asking, but why are you hitting the wheels?”
The old guy answered, “Don’t know.”
The visitor, perplexed, asked, “How long have you been doing that?”
“’Bout thutty years.”
“Why have you been doing a job for so long when you don't know what it's for?”
“Th’ railroad, they pays me.”
@@algrayson8965 A defective wheel will have a different sound to it. Do enough of them and you can tell the difference.
I was going to mention tread taper myself. I can't quite tell from the video, is it in spec on these wheels? They look pretty cylindrical. That would easily contribute to the derailment
I had 38 years on the railroad in the mechanical department. You are probably right about the truck not slewing in the curve. The steel liner of the bowl is out of place, it is sitting way too high, look at the new truck and you will see that it is sitting flush or just below the bolster casting. The yellow cup is the wear plate and lube for the trucks center bowl, grease is never used in a center bowl, it collects dirt and becomes a grinding compound that wears it even faster.
When I started we put a plastic type of lube pellets in the bowl every time we pulled a truck out from under a car, then later we put lube plates in them instead. Now they are using the plastic liners. I wonder how many times this will happen now as on unit trains they are not removing the trucks on a lot of railroads when they change wheels so the center bowls aren't being lubed and inspected. They are jacking the cars up with the trucks and pulling the wheels out the side or doing them on drop pits.
Thanks for the very informative comment sir, appreciate that
and for watching
@@ccrx6700 I agree with him.
Also, with today’s plastic tech, why wouldn’t it be such a stretch to make a sealed unit to sit in the bowl?
Since it doesn’t have that much drop, raising the car body off of the bolster would make for instant access to remove an old one, and slip a new one in.
Another possibility is to make a hardened steel pair of pancakes that are sealed, and again, drop right in.
They could be made in such dimensions that they would not get stuck inside the bowl.
I like the lib and plastic, but I’ve seen some interesting failures in regular automotive applications.
When I drove flatbeds, I used a lube plate.
Designed for trucks that rarely had to unhook.
I saw a lot of potential problems in the long term, so I would unhook and re-grease both sides once a month.
People never could believe how much fuel and tire wear you cut down on just keeping that single pivot point free.
Imagine how much wear to tracks and wheels could be prevented with a correctly designed pivot point insert!
Heck, don’t even use grease!
Hard stainless and a slip of Teflon between would solve the issue, as the Teflon would not hold dirt, and would work its way into the pores of the plates!
Just found your channel and really enjoy it. My gramps worked 35 years on the derailment crew for TP&W/ Santa Fe. He is 93 now but still love to tell stories of all the wrecks. The railroad built this country. Thanks for the content
Years ago came across a union magazine circa 1953? And there was a retirement tribute to a TPW roadmaster in his late 70s with 50t years senoriity. He was given a new fishing setup. Such dedication isn't around that much today
Awesome! Would I ever love to hear his stories, just a
suggestion for you: Get him to talk about them and make
videos for us to watch, I would never miss one of those.
that kind of experience would be priceless for me to hear.
In Greenwood Cemetery, Elm Hill Pike, Nashville, Tennessee is a railroad car wheel made into a grave marker for William B. Reed, “Uncle Billy.”
“Born December 26, 1849.
Joined Church, July 27, 1888.
Employed NC&StLRy March 8, 1883.
Honor Roll June 1, 1931.
Died August 26, 1934. “His Creed Of Life”
“I Love My Lord”
“I Love My Home”
“I Love My Job”
The cast bronze plaque covers the upper wheel and the axle boss. It's hard to tell between “3”s, “6”s and “8”s, so I may have gotten some dates wrong.
The Nashville, Chattanooga & St Louis Railway never had track all of the way to St Louis; was always known as the “N&C.”
@@algrayson8965 thanks for sharing that information. That's a lot of info to squeeze onto a grave marker but certainly a story worth telling
The worst is over, now you can enjoy that overtime check. Nice video
Thank you Steven, appreciate your watching
Somebody was spot on when they said a bogy locked up. Good to see you in good spirits after that whole ordeal.
Hey JT! Good see ya As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
Makes sense, Dave. So the leading wheels of the truck-set jumped the tracks, because the pivot failed. Those cracks in the bowl, don't look fresh. They have been there a while and the grease leaked out. Then the plastic liner failed as a result. Thanks for your analysis I look forward to your future videos. It is a sad irony that the track you maintained in pristine condition, suffered so much damage.
As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
And as you know the track men always blame it on the car men,
the car men blame it on the engineers and the engineers
blame it on the track men...LOL
@@ccrx6700 " Thomas the Tank Engine said" - 😂 I bet there isn't a railway man alive, who hasn't watch at least one episode of Thomas.
Over on the other railway, where they use blue locomotives, you can clearly see who's responsible there - the bean counters. The track is in terrible condition. - And there are ones even worse than that.
@@ccrx6700 - Something else I noticed, Dave. That refurbished truck set, it looks like the centre bowl is made of much heavier gauge steel, than on the derailment set. So they might have had trouble in the past with theses bowls splitting and leaking grease.
@@ccrx6700 The cars get tired of being pushed and shoved around. Kinda like people.
@@algrayson8965 Amen Brothers!
I was getting worried about you, glad to see you back! The truck manufacturer should be able to cast some light on that damaged (and perhaps have a metallurgist look at it). Hopefully the RR will lift several cars off their trucks and look for similar damage. Some PM would be a lot cheaper than what you just went through! Can't wait for the rest of your videos.
If you look at where the metal split if it's a fresh break the metal will have light color to it and dark if it's old.
That what I was thinking. Fresh break flash rust, old break dark rust and the accumulation of dirt and old grease.
The cracks are not in metal. That is a nylon insert.
@@house21758 no actually look close and you can see the insert is completely worn away on the sides and only the bottom is plastic now, looks like they never changed the liner and the stress of metal on metal cracked the bowl, plastic liners are added to high stress joints to relieve pressure and help grease do its job, so it's not a critical failure item but if it wears down it'll cause the metal to wear down fast, similar to how once the plastic seat in some cars ball joints wear down the ball joint wont fail but it will become loose and prone to failure.
@@house21758 The cracks are definitely in the metal. The walls of the plastic insert is worn away and gone. The breaks are extremely straight as though they broke along a weld seam. The three breaks are 90deg apart. Only a metalugist can analyze and determine if the breaks occurred before the derailment or as a result of the derailment.
@@dylanbrdn7996 after watching it 100 times lol I have to agree with you
I agree with your findings. Look how thin and warn the old swivel is. The entire outer ring is worn out so bad it's flared out. I'd inspect the rest of the cars so this doesn't happen again. Keep up the great work!
Like Thomas the Tank Engine, those silly cars always causing
trouble cause they are angry. Thanks for watching, hope
you will watch the rest of the videos in this series on the derailment.
Thank you and all the guys for all your hard work to keep things moving. Please be safe out there.
Your welcome and glad you enjoyed watching, stay tuned for more coming
The 5th wheel plates on tractor trailers have a similar issue to what's being described. When the plate joint gets dry from no grease it'll resist the ability to pivot and could cause the unit to continue straight and not turn into a curve. Happens more in trucks pulling the same trailer for a long period of time without separating the equipment.
Very interesting Joseph, thanks for writing in with that, I never
realized that. Appreciate your watching sir
"That's your theory and you're sticking to it!"
Like Thomas the Tank Engine, those silly cars always causing
trouble cause they are angry. Thanks for watching Lester
Well that's good to hear! It wasn't a track problem at all! You sound so tired, I'm glad you got some good rest time after all of that hard work putting it all back together
Thanks Sam, glad you enjoyed appreciate your watching tonight
You're a natural educator.....you explain things very well! I've no background in railroading, but I understood your theory perfectly well. Very interesting....thanks!
Thank you very much for the nice comment, glad you enjoyed the
show here today
Excellent theory you presented - and an unbelievably good explanation of the rationale behind super elevation.
Again sir, a job well done!
Thanks Dave!!
Thank you trainman for the nice comment. Glad you enjoyed and we appreciate your taking the time to watch. May you have a most
blessed day my friend.
As a former carman I agree.
We had several of those car type come on our line and those bowls had extensive wear causing trucks not swiveling properly.
Junk inferior design and materials yes!
@@oddjobz9858 that I cant say.
The ones we got were not inspected or maintained properly. The line was so desperate for cars they let them on the line with dozens of loose bolts per car. We're talking 20k in fines each just in loose bolts, and that was just the start. We normally would have a car out next day. Those cars were spending weeks.
Thank you Charles, appreciate your sending that in, it
actually makes me feel better for hearing you say that.
Ponder this: As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry.
And as you know the track men always blame it on the car men,
the car men blame it on the engineers and the engineers
blame it on the track men...LOL
@@ccrx6700 from what I've seen of your tracks they are far better maintained then some sections that my old line had.
Kid you not had whole sections that the mud was over the rails for hundred or so feet, and these were daily use sections.
@@nope8535 Charles i just dont show the mud sections ... lol. Watch some of my vids on curve 49 before we redid it, i have no clue how the train stayed on there. I got some small spots where mud is up to top of rail too. Thanks for getting back with me
Thank you for the in depth explanations with the actual subject matter! I'm glad that the RUclips algorithm actually did good this time around and I found your videos!
Thank you glad you enjoyed the show today, I do appreciate
the nice comment and for watching
Knowledgeable diagnosis and a great explanation. Glad you're OK and the road is up and running.
Thanks Kurt, As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
That was really interesting.... I was kinda close, as per how it happen, but I never would have thought of your theory of the "WHY"... really clever investigation. Good job on you and your team for getting that pass dialed back in to keep our nation rolling goods and making money. Be safe and thank you.
Like Thomas the Tank Engine, those silly cars always causing
trouble cause they are angry. Thank you my friend
Thanks again Dave! I agree with you on this one. I think she just bound up and lifted. Great explanation of super elevation and weight distribution. It's like riding a bike or motorcycle through a curve, you're turning the vehicle but if you lean into it, it's a much easier transition. Grease does wonderful things, and a lack of it, not so good!
Thank Rick, I agree with your sir
Thanks for posting about this. I understand it may be confusing why it happened and maybe a little embarrassing but not judgment here. Just glad there were no serious injuries if any. Great work on 5he videos. On to 20k. 😁😁
Thanks Dennis, and As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
Thank you for taking your time to make these videos! There is so much to learn about railroading.
You very welcome Michael, glad to hear you are enjoying watching
them my good man.
This video answered a lot of my questions as to what terms you kept talking about. Thanks Dave
Your welcome Alaina and great to hear you enjoyed the adventure.
We do appreciate your tuning in and watching my friend.
So that's why my cheapo HO model railroad cars keep derailing. Interesting.
Several other model railroaders have written in with same
comment, very interesting to me to hear that. Thanks for watching
Must be the Life-Like ones!!
I'm not an HO railroader myself but my best friend is. He often points out that the stock curves provided in HO kits are much too tight for actual railroads and result in easy derailment. The problem may be the track, not the cars.
In O scale ( not 3 rail toy trains) we use properly tapered wheel tread faces just like the prototype.. and free swiveling of the trucks is absolutely necessary. We rely on much the same geometry of operation as the prototype.
in h.o. 22 radius is closer to scale... also adding weight to cars... helps cars...track well!
Those breaks in the pivot point are definitely old. As someone else mentioned new breaks would be shinny. 🚂🚂🚂
Hummm? Me thinks we missed some preventative maintenance work.....On the wheel set......
Tracks were A OK.....And agree Rust is time indicator too!
What say you?
Tom as Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
And as you know the track men always blame it on the car men,
the car men blame it on the engineers and the engineers
blame it on the track men...LOL
Great explanation on what do you think happened and I can’t wait to see the rest of the videos of them re-railing the cars and locomotive and fixing the tracks back. Should be some great videos so stay safe and keep the videos coming my man
Timmy, appreciate your watching and for sharing your thoughts with us, hope you'll watch more of the videos coming out soon on
the derailment
Very good explanation Dave, as always I’ve learned something new about railroading today! Thanks for posting, look forward to further updates👍🏼😎
As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
🤣
Sounds like a new inspection item to add to your checklist.
as long as they're properly installed they should be maintenance free... but yes i imagine they will have to inspect every single one now.
@@rustblade5021 rarely is something maintenance free...........
@@rustblade5021 Those low friction plates are definitely NOT maintenance free. They do wear out over time and do need to be replaced.
@@littlewingpsc27 the words; "maintenance" and "free" are mutually exclusive! Kinda like; "JUMBO" "shrimp", "Military" "Intelligence" and "Honest" "Politician"!😂🙃🤔
@@littlewingpsc27 don't split hairs with me - these wear liners last for years and years until they need to be replaced. they also do not require grease. that is THE definition of "maintenance free" when used in place for bearings.
Hey, at least everything is getting back _on track_ again.
😂
Good one dad
Rolling on through with the jokes there
@@SimonQuigley It's ok son, you will have your turn soon enough.
@@natalieg90 Glad you liked it and that it made you smile.
Great video Dave, thanks for sharing. It nice to have someone like yourself explain things to us, thank you !!!!!!
Thank you Ron, glad you liked the show today sir, appreciate
your watching, more vids to come so stay tuned my friend
Thank you so much for taking us along for the way this short line MOW dept maintains their trackage.
Also I'm enjoying the other videos about the car shop and bottom dump station. I've seen a rotary dumper at a power generating plant.
Thanks for watching my friend.
Hope you'll stay tuned for the rest of the upcoming videos on
the derailment.
After seeing this, I too would agree with your explanation. I would expect that if those cracks were fresh, you'd see a more yellow type of initial rust, a lot like what the rail or wheel sets get after a rain or two and no movement. The darker rust is less topical and is slightly deeper. (that saved us on an electrical job where a large electric motor under test ripped off the frame it was attached to, and when it did, it shifted the rotor from the stator causing them to make contact... and enough sparks to set the surrounding grease on fire until the inertial load finally came to a stop some 10 minutes later. Customer insisted we broke the frame, when we went down and showed the new crack right beside the old rusted crack on the opposite side... they weren't very happy when we point the finger back at their own maintenance, or lack of actually... So I would assume the same could be done here. The bottom portion of that piece that looks like 2/3rds of a circle should be shinny underneath if the are fresh cracks. I would expect to see a gouge or wear marks on the mating end of the car frame since it likely dug in causing it not to swivel.
Additional causes for this break out could be rough handling of the car, or depending on direction of travel brakes set and slack action of the car's mass, or car mass plus solidly coupled to the rest of the train slamming into the stopped truck. If you think about it, that pin and the bowl is the only thing that gets brake forces to slow the car, and the rest of the train down... Otherwise, teh wheels would stop and everything else would go flying overhead! How likely is this scenario? Probably not likely, but 30-40 years of sharp impacts will fatigue metal... and considering the liner is ground out, you have a half inch or so play where you can get a differential speed between the car body and the truck bolsters.
Someone in the comments mentioned that it wasn't the bowl that was cracked out, it was the liner.... that is incorrect. If you look at 2:12 in the video, at about the 10-11 o'clock position, you can definitely see that the liner has worn through on the sides, and is shredded at that spot, where only the bottom of the liner remains. One would think that would be sufficient since that is where the load of the car rests onto the bolster, however clearly there is more side to side action that occurs making those wear. I would definitely be making an inspection of the remaining fleet of cars for similar wear and or damage. Since the same cars are always tied together the wear unfortunately is probably pretty similar throughout all the cars.
Definitely a great call quarantining this problem child car that kicked everything off! See what all that experience gets ya!
Oh, one other thing, are the rollers on the left side egg shaped by comparison to the ones on the right, or is that just the lighting making them look odd? If those are locked up or square, that's probably not a good thing either!
The rollers are originally cylindrical.
The cracks in the metal of the broken ring on the truck can be looked at for "weathering" meaning if there is any penetrated rust, grime, oxidation, etc. that can be seen in between the mating surfaces of the crack, then those breaks were there prior. If the derailment itself caused it to break, then those cracks should be shiny and fresh appearing.
Wow. Thanks for explaining the maintenance procedures with examples and facts. Along with the physical forces involved with standard operation. I'm more in the building engineering ems side of things, so this was a bit of a treat for a mind bender. Thanks so much for the detailed thoughts. Jim M.
Thanks Jim for the great comment, glad you enjoyed it sir and
hope you stay tuned for the rest of the vids in this series
Very sound theory. As you showed the damage I was thinking exactly what you said. Thanks for showing. this channel is so cool.
Thank you Weslee, glad you are enjoying the shows sir
Very interesting,and yes i would say that your analysis is correct,lack of lube causing friction and then?
Do i see a programme of car inspections coming up!!
You have gone beyond yourself to explain all of this to us "raifans" so many many thanks for these episodes, take care stay safe and thank you again for being so tolerant of us all,enjoy a nice rest if at all possible,..thank you again..
Donald, as Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
And as you know the track men always blame it on the car men,
the car men blame it on the engineers and the engineers
blame it on the track men...LOL
@
Donald Thomson
hello how are you doing
Thanks Dave for keeping us informed about this terrible situation for yourselves, the track gang and the train crew. What I have noticed about most of the track sleepers (ties) are wooden in the US! Here in Northern Ireland we moved away from wooden to concrete sleeper's (ties) resulting in less failures in track performance. I love watching videos from the US railways seeing all the freight and passenger locos. Here it's very boring, see 1 train and that's them all lol. Great video's Dave.
Thank you Russell for watching, glad you enjoyed and appreciate
the comment. Am gonna make a future vid on concrete ties, there
a lot to discuss about that subject.
Time for some well deserved R&R!
Thanks for sharing your experience and wisdom. 👍🏻
Never a dull moment here, and what does rest mean? LOL
thank you so much for watching my friend
I love a good detective story. Understanding how things work, and why it didn't work this time. Looking forward to watching all of your many videos, lots of stuff to learn. Thanks for taking the time to make these.videos.
Thank you Damon, good to hear you are enjoying and we do
appreciate your writing in and for watching
Basically, from what I can gather, basically this is like a big rig that didn't have enough grease on the fifth wheel. Same difference.
But in essence, the bad truck caused the outer rail to roll over, due to the weight in the car shifting to the inside. The car derailed when the gauge became too wide.
What you should see, in that situation, is the wheel flanges being basically shined up, or a coating of new, light surface rust, because of the flange of the wheel, rubbing on and pushing on the railhead. That will tell you the side of the truck that was the outer side, as that turn was negotiated.
I also believe that the truck had no grease and was binding, due to the lip of the pin area being broken into four pieces. That is basically the same thing as a ball joint or an outer tie-rod on a car that has a cracked boot. When that happens, and you lose all the grease, the joint ends up seizing, becoming rough, and eventually starts cracking, popping, even groaning as it moves to do its job.
Sometimes things just break and go bad on the RR. We been
very fortunate that this was the first time that I can remember
since 1993 or earlier that a problem like this has occurred here.
Thank you for watching Isaiah and hope you will enjoy the rest of the
videos coming out about the derailment events.
The fact that the sides of the liner is gone that would mean it would be metal on metal, there would be some gouging marks on the car body, if you can look at that.
Sure woulda been cool had they still had that car body up on
the jacks and we could have seen what it looked like, I do believe
like you said that would have told more of the story. Thanks for watching
@@ccrx6700 I agree... missing evidence when they scrapped the car body.
Very interesting forensic railway engineering analysis. I love your job.! Congrats.
Thank you Julio, do appreciate your nice comment and for watching
the video and I love my job too!
Thank you for taking the time to explain the details to us. You sound tired. Get some rest you have done a great job getting the trains running again.
Terry from South Carolina
Thanks Terry, appreciate your watching
Thank you for all you do !!!!
Your welcome Ralph and thank you for watching
In trucking we get this same thing when the fifth wheel is not lubed properly, the truck won't handle properly and it fights the driver going down the highway especially on a turn. A hooker I once knew used to say "don't underestimate the importance of lube".
That makes sense! Thanks for the alternative way of thinking about this!
No truer words ever spoken
Words of wisdom from a working woman.
That’s a mistake you only make once.
Lmao
Great detective work! You really know your railroad, thank you for sharing!
As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching Raymond.
And as you know the track men always blame it on the car men,
the car men blame it on the engineers and the engineers
blame it on the track men...LOL
Hi Dave! 👋 I just subscribed because after watching 3 of your past videos, I find it very refreshing to actually learn something instead of the usual "click bait" thats out there today.
I am a serious lifetime railroad modeler...(O scale 2 rail, all hand spiked) so alot of what you encounter in real life can be applied to help my "toys" run smoother.
Thank You and good luck!
Thank you Mark and welcome to our community, we are glad to have you with us and hope you will continue to enjoy. Appreciate
the nice comment my new friend.
Here is an introduction video to get you a feel for what all we do here at the Railroad and a bit about our mine:
ruclips.net/video/oOug0z34118/видео.html
Lot's of cool RR videos on our home page if you would sometime care to check any of them out.
ruclips.net/user/ccrx6700
Good Evening. Thought you were maybe out of the video business after the accident at curve 18, as it has come to be known. Welcome back.
doubt it, he is number 1 on the seniority board. said it on a prior video.
LOL Bruce, got lots more coming for ya sir. Appreciate your watching
That's a good explanation.
Thank you Chad, As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
Your explanation sounds plausible and I envisioned exactly what you were saying. Thanks for the video.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed the show, appreciate your watching,
I also am not opposed to there being some side truck warp that
may have been a contributing factor, we will never know
Thank you so much for posting this video. Your theory sounds very plausible. Something very similar happened with the early double stack cars out west and did cause derailments until it was figured out. Stay safe. I see some inspections in your future.
Like Thomas the Tank Engine, those silly cars always causing
trouble cause they are angry. Thank you my friend for watching
The cracks in that bolster bowl are definitely old. You can see the rust build up inside each crack; that wouldn't be the case if the cracks were caused by the derailment. I think you're on to something here, the physics hold up for what you describe.
A perfectly logical explanation for the cause.
Tremendous forces are at work with 100 + ton loads and empty car (25-30 tons?) plus inertia.
A recipe for a big mess!
Bill, As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
And as you know the track men always blame it on the car men,
the car men blame it on the engineers and the engineers
blame it on the track men...LOL
@@ccrx6700 I know exactly what you mean!
@@railroad9000 😄
The usual load limit on eight ø36” wheels is 240,000#, 30,000# each.
Tremendously informative video ! Keep them coming !
Many thanks from Richard in Canada.
Thank you Richard, glad you enjoyed sir, hope you will stick
around to see the rest of the videos in this mini series on the
derailment
Good way to explain it, there is a lot going on that people don't or can't see but a truck is so simple to use, if it's greased and when the grease goes, the next thing down the road is a derailment. My dad worked on the Maine Central Line and my Uncle was a foreman, and they worked together a lot. I remember the times they had to go out on derailments in the woods, and that was when they had the cars for the crews, etc. Both are gone now, but this brought back some memories! Thanks!
Thank you and glad you enjoyed sir. Bet your dad and uncle had
some really neat stories to share, golly would I love to talk with
those guys. Appreciate your sharing your story with us
22mph doesn’t seem fast until you add all the weight to it.
@God Bless America; Especially when "WATER" is thrown in the mix........ like ships on the oceans.😱
As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
Those cracks look old to me. I'm not an expert on rail equipment but steel is steel and metal inside those breaks looks pretty much identical to the metal around it, I'd expect it to be noticably brighter if the crack was only a few days old.
It wouldn't stop a loaded car from slewing.
Love Your video bro that was fantastic it’s amazing how people don’t understand how a little bit of grease or oil can keel a piece of equipment in top shape wear in tear creates a lot of heat and in that sense that heat will split many forms of the metals and in this case as you have shown it didn’t get the amount of oil that it needed to maintain a safe movement well said my friend we hope and pray that the future holds a lot more safer rails for us all
Thank you Joe, really glad you enjoyed the show
you nailed it.....it is amazing that more rail accidents don't happen......good job doing what you do..
Thank you Todd, and as Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
Hope you'll stay tuned for the rest of the upcoming videos on
the derailment.
It just comes down to the rail industry failing to maintain equipment as they once did not long ago. Car knockers were plentiful just up until 30/40 years ago with eyes on equipment now stuff rolling 10’s of thousands of miles sometimes before real scoping work is done. I can attest to this as a rr CNDR for 12 years in the field seeing how this shell game is played . Carrier vs equipment owners
No thats not it at all. These guys take great care of all their equipment. It's just thay stuff happens sometimes. This is a private line.
is it possible the wear on this, and the other cars and locos could be caused by being in a loop railroad? the locos the cars in the same position could cause unusual wear patterns on the cars and the locos too. edit: repeated wear in the same way without a change......
We have our share of wear on cars and on track just because
of what you are saying. It hard on stuff always running loads the
same way, bi directional loads would decrease a lot of wear problems we have. Excellent observation on your part my friend!
@@ccrx6700 thank you for the reply.
@@rearspeaker6364 We get the same experience with equipment on the oceans.
@@ccrx6700 the railroad I worked for had the same problem. We used to turn the locomotives and cars at least once a year to even the wear.
Thankyou you for this video. Glad nobody was hurt. I always enjoy watching your videos. Hope you get some rest. Happy Rails 👊👊👍👍
Your welcome John, Thanks for being a faithful viewer
Great video. Great explanation of a complex engineering problem. Thanks!!
Your welcome. As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
So if that truck bowl is dry, question arises, how many other hopper cars have dry bowls? To grease it do you have to lift the body up?
1000’s or more trust
Yes, that’s how it’s done, it can just be jacked up enough to throw those grease pouches in and then let back down. You don’t need to move the truck once the car is lifted.
Some locomotive traction motor gear boxes are lubed with bags of cog lube. It’s like a soft tar, you take a cap off the gear box and put a few plastic bags full of lube in and put the cap back on.
@@ralfie8801 you put the whole bag in, bag and all!!
@@ralfie8801 Those yellow plates are supposed to be the "lube" as that car body to bolster joint is not weather tight and using grease would just wash out over time. The fact that the removed bolster had none of that "lube" plate left in tact suggests that there was a lot of friction between the bolster and car body that could have caused it to bind coming out of a corner.
@littlewingpsc27
None of those bolster plates are weather tight, we use 30 wt motor oil in the corresponding housing on some locomotives. The grease you say would wash out actually won’t. It’s a very hard grease almost like plastic.
I love the smell of creosote in railroad ties .. reminds me of my youth
What not to love about creosote smell....thanks for watching
This explanation makes a ton of sense. One of the details I noticed in the original derailment aftermath video are a pair of scrapes on the web of the rail that had rolled over. I'm thinking that as the leading wheel rolled the rail over, it and the following wheel in that first truck set fell into the web and rolled along in what was then became channel guiding the wheels, which then kept twisting the rail over as the cars rolled forward. Great videos by the way!
Yep, got some pictures of that wheel on the web that are posted on
my channel on the Community Tab
Wow, this was really interesting! I'm off to watch your spike video now.
Glad you enjoyed the show! Appreciate your watching 😊
Makes sense to me. It might just be the way the camera angle, but looks like those two wheel sets aren't in-line in that truck set. Course, that might have been from the derailment or like I said, just the angle of the video. Long four days work. Get some rest.
Looks to me that the misalignment is an artifact of the camera. It is caused by a wide angle lens. Take note of how the rails seem to bend as the camera pans at around 3:27.
You are correct, they aren't, but we see that often after a truck set
is drug out from under a car by the high lift, and as you say it
could have been caused by the derailment. Very good observation Mike
Back in the day there were no liners or lubrication just good ol thick metal.
I hear ya = l was a Carmen on the MILW. RR = I REMEMBER THAT WITH EVERY LIFT = IF POSSIBLE WE WOULD PUT A GRAFITE DISK IN the center plate bowl... MANY CENTER PLATE RINGS WERE CRACKED OR BROKEN OUT WITH PEICES MISSING = IT WAS A REAL PROBLEM 40 YRS AGO...
Back in the olden days freight cars were 50 to 70 ton capacity. The use of 100 to 140 ton cars necessitated plate lubrication.
@@thomasdupee1440 yup the load limit is definitely much higher
Excellent point Thomas! Thanks for adding that in, big differences now that what used to be. Thanks for watching and hope you
are doing well my friend
Thanks for posting. Always interesting to see what may have happened to cause a problem.
Thanks Bob, and As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry.
Fabulous explanation. I know nothing about this stuff and your detailed explanation made perfect sense.
Yes you sound exhausted. Thank you thank you for posting these videos for us. Please get some needed rest when you can.
That's railroadin'!! 😁😁
Thank you Dennis. But as Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
Sir, would a binding bearing have the drag force to make the flange ride over the rail ?
Great question sir and just my humble opinion no it would not.
Sometimes things just break and go bad on the RR. We been
very fortunate that this was the first time that I can remember
since 1993 or earlier that a problem like this has occurred here.
Thank you for watching and hope you will enjoy the rest of the
videos coming out about the derailment events.
I would expect to see shiny worn flanges if the bogie was fighting the track instead of swivelling freely.
@@colinlothlorian If the rail is of a softer steel than the wheel (I don't know if it is), then the rail would get all the wear and not the flanges. If you look at the original derailment video, there is quite a bit of wear on the section of track that tipped over.
@@kdmq I could have explained my thinking better. Normally the flange doesn't touch the rail, a sticky centre bearing will cause the flange to repeatedly contact the rail and leave a shiny witness mark on the flange. If you add that to a rail head that is worn to the same taper as the flange, giving a lot more friction, then the chance of the flange climbing the rail is much increased.
Question Dave:Being your lines a private line,does the NTSB get involved with your derailment? I'm sure here in Canada the TSB would be involved.Still watching🚂🚃🚃🚃🇨🇦
Negative, TSB and TC will not be involved unless the railway operates across a provincal or international border Short lines totally within a province will be regulated by that same province
Got ya.thanks👍
Excellent question my friend, since we are in the mining industry
we are "governed" by MSHA. Even they won't get involved unless
there is a fatal. Mine safety department will if there is an injury. Now if a private citizen was killed, I really don't know if NTSB would
come or not, but kinda thinking not, hopefully we will never
have to find out
Great video, you really explain things really great. Take care and have a good day. Make sure you get some really good rest. 🙂
Great video and explanations 👍 You definitely sound exhausted! You'll need a long weekend to unwind after this ⛱️
David, my dad always told me no rest for the wicked...lol
thanks for watching my friend
Looks like the crack was there for a while because its already rusted were the crack is at. looks like that truck was going back for a while. and it finally gave and locked.
Charles, appreciate your watching and for sharing your thoughts with us, hope you'll watch more of the videos coming out soon on
the derailment
I concur, not that I'm a railway engineering expert, far from it, I just enjoy watching stuff about engineering and I'm a bit of a petrolhead, but where a crack in the metal has been there long enough to get rusty, or the witness mark shows that the crack has formed over time (polished look to it) before an instant fracture, then I'd say that truck was going bad way before the derailment.
Sounds and looks plausible.That truck was bound up and would not swivel due to the broken out spots in the radius.
Steve, remember, As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching my friend.
Great explanation. Keep yourself safe out there.
Thank you Louis, glad you enjoyed watching the show.
A great explanation of the physics involved here. Yep, I'll be another to go along with the theory, too.
I always thought there was a screw that one tightened from the bottom of the bolster to attach trucks, though... hmmm... (I'm biting my tongue to keep a straight face now lol)... Thanks for sharing these vids, seriously, and congrats on the subscriber milestone, as well.
As Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing
trouble because they are angry. Thanks for watching Johnnie
and hope you will watch the rest of the vids in this series on
the derailment.
A metallurgist should be able to tell if the flange break was fresh (caused by the derailment) or was old (cause the derailment). If the metal in the break is shiny, it's probably a fresh break.
Ed, appreciate your watching and for sharing your thoughts with us, hope you'll watch more of the videos coming out soon on
the derailment
how old is that truck set? because if it's as old as the cars from the 90s you're going to get fatigue failure.
Only going to happen more often with more lax safety inspection requirements and regulations. RR companies have constantly lessened the time spent on each car for inspection after a certain amount of mileage putting more stress on those who do inspections. There have been numerous news stories highlighting it. One of these days they are going to have pushed the limits too far and innocent people will be put in danger for the sake of corporate greed.
Another fine Investigative effort and likely conclusion by you Dave!
Thanks Bob, nothing like this ever happened on the SP? Ha Ha,
and as Thomas the Tank Engine said, Silly cars always causing trouble because they are angry.
And as you know the track men always blame it on the car men,
the car men blame it on the engineers and the engineers
blame it on the track men...LOL
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, experiences, opinions... Model Railroading and Big League Railroading can certainly use your videos to learn from.
Your certainly welcome, so pleased to learn you enjoyed the
show my friend.
Here we see how cutting costs with equipment maintenance bites back bad. Just like my ex-boss gave me a towtruck to use that was totally sluggish and "out of breath". It had so badly clogged up air filter that resulted to turbocharger overspeed and impeller destruction. Somehow the impeller shards managed to not cause noticeable problems after getting sucked into the engine...
Sometimes things just break and go bad on the RR. We been
very fortunate that this was the first time that I can remember
since 1993 or earlier that a problem like this has occurred here.
Thank you for watching and hope you will enjoy the rest of the
videos coming out about the derailment events.
The derailment cause is always dependent on whose budget is being threatened with the cleanup and repair costs.
Sometimes things just break and go bad on the RR. We been
very fortunate that this was the first time that I can remember
since 1993 or earlier that a problem like this has occurred here.
Thank you for watching and hope you will enjoy the rest of the
videos coming out about the derailment events.
@
Best Friend Hank
hello
how are you doing
I think your bang on because I've been learning about all the extra cars being added to train's making them double or more the length and because of all the cut backs of workers and funding to maintain and service the train's they are breaking a lot more now! More profits and less people to make sure they are safe is the perfect recipe for disaster. 👌👍💚💛❤️
Thank you rasta ralph for writing in and sharing your thoughts.
We do appreciate your visiting with us and watching. May you have a most blessed day my friend.
Thanks for posting this great follow up. Kudos
Thank you glad you enjoyed
Thank you for watching and hope you will enjoy the rest of the
videos coming out about the derailment events.
You have a new subscriber sir, you're one of the most interesting railtubers out there. 🙂👌
Thank you very much. We are pleased to have you on board with us.
I like the railtubers! Never heard that before. Hope you hit the
notification bell so You Tube will keep you informed of new
content.
Sounds like a reasonable explanation to me. Well thought out! Your years of experience shows.
Thank you for watching and hope you enjoyed
Thanks boss well explained.Yes that`s not a fresh break.4 Days you would still see shine.Have a great one sir.
Your welcome William, glad you liked the movie. Thanks for watching and hope you will watch the upcoming videos
that explain so many other aspects of what all happened here, there gonna be 8 more videos out about the derailment coming soon
Thank you Dave for taking the time..
Thank you Renegade for taking the time to watch and write in.
I have learned so much off your channel and I love this.
Thanks Thomas good to hear that sir
Very informative video. Learned a lot! Great video! Thanks!
Thank you Charles, glad you enjoyed and hope your gonna
stay tuned for the rest of the vids on this derailment
Great video. Great job of explaining possible cause. Thanks for posting.
Thank you Clyde, appreciate your watching sir
Great job I see grease in the bolster below the broken socket/pocket. If that grease is old or has dirt mixed in, I would suspect that the socket failed some time ago. Also, the disintegrating cast iron around the steel socket liner looks like it has been broken for a long time which would have removed support for the steel liner (which does not look thick enough to withstand the forces imposed without the cast iron backing) and led to its cracking along with the yellow plastic liner and resulted in grease leaking out into the bottom of the bolster. You should be able to inspect the cast iron outer socket for failure with a flashlight.
Good description of cant and the effects of curves on the track . Cant worked out with angle of curve ( no corners on the railway) and line speed . Great video 👍🇬🇧
Thank you and really glad to hear you enjoyed the show. We do
appreciate your writing in and for watching today Stephen.
This as an enjoyable video. it moved right along and was informative. It was much better than the unedited one you made when the derailment happened.
Thank you Gary, glad you liked it. The first video I was really
in shock at what had happened and what was 90% in my head was, how in the world am I gonna get this track back together, so I'm
sure you understand I had a lot more on my mind that making movies at the time. Do so much appreciate the great comment sir
I think you nailed it. Everything else was in normal parameters with the speed and the ties and the rail. So there had to be some substantial outward force that laid the rail over. You sir, are a very smart man!
Brian, appreciate your watching and for sharing your thoughts with us, hope you'll watch more of the videos coming out soon on
the derailment
@@ccrx6700 Wouldn't miss it!
Thanks for the technical description of the curve and bogie/wagon derail.
I cannot understand that you still use pins to keep the track in posoition.
Here in the UK think we gave up using pins in the early 1900's and used rail chairs, chair screws and some sort of wedge, wood in the early days to steel clips to modern pandrol rail clips. Also now on concrete tye's (sleepers).
You mentioned that you are working on short lengths 40 ft in the UK fish plates together.
Would it not make servicing and you life better if the rails were continuously welded.
This is the first day I've seen you videos, think 5.
Thanks for them from the UK
Anthony, appreciate your watching and for writing in