Good artists COPY, Great artists STEAL? Uh…
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Steve Jobs once made up a quote attributed to Picasso essentially telling everyone stealing was part of artistic genius. While inspiration is essential to photography and copying a picture can teach you a great deal, there is a point where you have to dig deeper and try and find your own voice.
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Ted Forbes
The Art of Photography
2830 S. Hulen, Studio 133
Fort Worth, TX 76109
US of A
Brilliant video. Did you ever have an 'AHA' moment in your life that changed everything. I did. I came from a small rural town in the then Rhodesia and was in my second year of doing Engineering at Durban University (long line of engineers in my family). I was stuck in the middle of Johannesburg for some hours waiting for a train, and to kill time went into the National Art Gallery. I wandered through galleries of boring landscape paintings until, down a small side gallery, I spotted a painting that looked really interesting. The closer I got to it the more mesmerised I became until I stood in front of it for ages, completely blown away. I had never experienced just how powerful and riveting a painting could be. It was a portrait of St. John by El Greco - who I had never heard of at that stage. This was in 1968. It completely changed my life. I switched the next year from engineering to arts ending up with a master of arts degree, lectured for a few years and then became a professional photographer and writer. I often wonder how many other people experience such transcendental moments that change to course of their lives in an instant. All the best, and please more videos like your last few, Bruce
You've just inspired me. I'm always out there looking for something to quench my art thirst. I capture something but still feel it's not it. Still wondering is it portraits, landscape, architectural or what....
I have aaahah moments often, and thats brilliant from artists nd engineers
Excellent discussion. I played out in cover bands for about 25 years. We wanted to be a great cover band, but had no illusions about being original. Now, as I strive to find something inside myself that lets me transfer “seeing” into making a photograph, I’m trying to better understand myself. I’m 71 now, if I can make one photograph I consider original and hang it on my wall by the time I’m 80, I’ll be happy.
Memento mori
From T.S. Eliot:
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different from that from which it was torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest.
I think really what Eliot means here by stealing is really the excitement one feels for certain works of art. When we see something sublime or beautiful we can't help but take or "steal" from it. Yet, as he warns, this stealing must always make one's work better; one must be sure to "welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different from that from which it was torn."
You take a risk talking about this. That's why I'm here. No fear, please keep up, don't give up. We need it, even not just to feel alone.
Great video! Fully agree, this reminds me of the quote: "Art is not made in a vacuum."
This is the reason I never join any competitions. Everything is about the best, or originality. It just takes the joy out of everything.
I would have never grown as a photographer if I didn't try to copy at first. Once I understood what I was doing I didn't want to copy anymore. However, I still feel derivative in my work. I still feel like a "culminator" instead of an "innovater" like you said. In fact, I'm still not a great culminator either...lol! I like to think of photography as more of a journey and not a destination.
Great point, so many of us are culminators in process, a process that is never ending!
Everything is derivative. Whatever you copied is irrelevant to anyone that's never seen it. Forget the "great photographers" there really aren't any, there are only great photographs.
The thing I want to point out from this video is if a 'name' does a photo, it is lauded by all the experts,. but if a 'nobody' does the exact same photo, the experts say bleh whatever. Photograpy is more about how well you market yourself rather than the quality of the photo. Everyone's photos are largely similar anyway.
Great video! If it’s any conciliation Ted nobody can really hold a candle to your videos about the philosophy behind photography. Your in-depth knowledge on the topics you choose always shines through. You’re the original one and the fact that you’re still so motivational after all these years says a lot. Keep going Ted!
I explained the 'great artist steal' quote to a student by telling them that the things around us will always inspire us. And when you find your voice as an artist, I can be familiar with what has inspired you, but I wouldn't know unless you told me. I believe the 'stealing' is about owning an idea vs borrowing it. There is so much of the artist in the work the idea now belongs to them.
I think the culmination of what we are, how we view the world, the things we experience & what we eventually put into our profession is what can make us original if you try hard enough. Being a culmination of 2 artists will make you look like a copy. But being a culmination of a load of different styles, influences will give your own take.
Richard Strauss was a culminator as well (and one of my favorite composers, along with JS Bach). One thing I find fascinating in Chinese landscape painting is that artists will learn by copying the ancient artists. Sometimes they will even paint in an ancient style. I have a book of C C Wang's landscapes called Mind Landscapes. He says that all Chinese landscape painters paint the same picture/composition, just like jazz musicians all sing the same songs, but it is the brush that reveals the artist, like we would never confuse Billie & Ella. He goes on to say that he could easily copy Matisse but never Grandma Moses.
I'm a musician and an aspiring photographer....have played in cover bands and original bands for over 30 years.....your categories of "innovator" and "culminator" only describe those who ASPIRE to create something new....there are also other, larger categories - "creator" and "performer"....creators breakout into your sub categories but performers also fall into sub categories that might be described as "interpretors" and "mimics"....and there are thousands upon thousands of creative/talented people across all artistic forms that are NOT creators - they are performers and they bring their skills/talents to the process of interpreting, presenting and REACHING people through their own unique take on the work...."cover bands don't change the world"....true - but they do (sometimes) change a person's mood/evening/weekend, etc....smaller potatoes yes - but irrelevant? NO! It is pretentious and stifling to consider that ONLY those who create something original are capable of affecting people with their talent. Music is a little different because the recording (the SONG/ALBUM/ETC) is a "piece" that has been manipulated/created with a very specific agenda AND various talents (songwriter, sound engineers, producers, etc) while the performance is happening in real time and is constrained by the talents/attitudes/gear of those PRESENT at the moment. Photography inherently always exists like the recording because you have control over the final product and can manipulate the image in editing or by even re-taking the shot or using a different shot. Painters, actors, writers - they all can be creators or performers and their "art" can come in the form of something "new" or something interpreted. Is an actor, by definition, NOT a valid artist because he/she is reciting the same Shakespeare lines that have been recited for 500 years? Are classically trained musicians who have been playing Mozart for the past 300 years all cover band shills? Original work is the lifeblood of creativity in all of the arts but not all original work is worth a damn. The measure of whether an artist is achieving something is not simply whether they are grinding and staying loyal to some struggle to create something new. The measure is whether the art has impact - on one person (THE ARTIST EVEN) or millions. Scale should be irrelevant - it's just about conveying one's perspective and having another creature say "I get it."
Perceive the Edges (boundaries of the composition); Perceive the Negative Spaces (what takes up space as well as how it interacts and holds influence in placement); Perceive the Proportions and Relationships (where is the composition in perspective); Perceive the Chiaroscuro (light and dark; illuminated and obscured); & Perceive the Gestalt!
Betty Edwards is there to elevate our photographers eye. There are 5 questions of saturation just waiting to be transferred to the subtracted arts (📷🖼🎨) in all their intertextual insights.
loved this! Could be applied to many fields
Nice seeing you here, Evan!
There are a number of folks commenting on the proliferation or saturation of photography and whether or not the art can stand out from the snapshots. It IS possible and most people can see the difference when they are presented with art. They may not necessarily like that art (or maybe aren't ready for it yet), but they can see it. As artists we need to take the time (sometimes years) to figure out what it is that we like and (sometimes more importantly) what we don't. I believe that once we have figured that out we can more easily find our own voice - the thing that drives us to make art. It has a side benefit of helping us to see what is there with intent (art) and what is simply there (snapshot) in the work of others too. I am discovering this for myself after years of making snapshots and it is in large part due to folks like Ted helping me to open my eyes. Thanks Ted! Another fantastic video!
Please keep doing what you do. Address these topics where others don’t dare. There is so much cloning going on in the photography world. When I started out studying commercial photography I learned from great lecturers, books and fellow students. But these days, most photographers are using social media as their learning platform. They see something and then just emulate it. Its all they know how to do. They get no input on expanding their own creativity or technique, they don’t even know that exists or believe they can even do that. It makes me sad.
I too learned from copying my hero’s in the photographic world. I learned so much but I always consciously introduced an element that was my own.
Now my work could not be more different from who I learned from.
When the cloning is continuous and does not move forward in it’s own direction, we certainly have a problem. It’s frustrating when sometimes it’s taken years for me to fruit an idea and when you finally produce the work and someone clones it straight away, I feel so sad. I just want to turn around and walk away and try and find a completely new thing to shoot.
There are so many aspects of this topic I could go on about. Positive and negative.
I am so glad I found your videos at last. I wish I had much sooner.
Great discussion topic.
Thanks
Janice Joplin’s Me and Bobby MaGee; Jimmy Hendrick’s Watchtower; Roberta Flack’s AND The Fugee’s Killing Me Softly; Manfred Mann’s Blinded By the Light; Rod Stewart’s Forever Young; all covers that were so truly great they eclipsed the original version.
I have to agree 100%. Being a musician myself I have almost quit making music, as today's musicians don't seem to make music for musics sake anymore. Unlike in the olden days, where young upcoming musicians were searching for their own signature sound, at a time, where musicians tried to push boundaries and reinvent music (think Miles Davids and others, who effectively invented new styles as they felt the old styles restricted them too much), today musicians main motivation for taking up music seems to be becoming rich and famous. So logically they don't try to explore new ways, the employ old proven methods. It's not about artistic expression anymore.
Also, we learn from what we are getting exposed to. Young musicians usually only get exposed to dumbed down commercial music of their time, and therefore to diluted non-artistic money-generating music of no artistic merit, that consists of the same 4 chords over and over again. If 4 chords is all you know, chances are you won't create music that's drastically different from what you were we socialised with. Crap music is everywhere nowadays, and you really have to search hard and long to find new music of the same quality as, say, bands like Queen or Toto (the stuff that was pop music 30+ years ago).
It's not that different with photography (which I happen to do as well). If your scrolling through the photos on any given photo-community, you'll notice, that most people usually recreate images of somebody else, images they had seen somewhere before. New trends, like a new style in post processing, are being copied immediately, and rarely would you see pictures, that have a real unique style to them. Now, copying images to learn from them is absolutely fine, how else would you learn. But reading through comments that usually accompany those images, it seems like the level at which one becomes an accomplished photographer has shifted. Great photographers of the olden days were considered great (and rightly so) because they had their own unique handwriting, had a great eye for images, created images that told stories, needless to say they knew the technical aspect as well. Today a great photographer seems to be one, who is capable of perfectly recreating famous images on a technical level. A common comment would be:" great image, nice colours, unfortunately it isn't tack sharp!" That says it all IMHO. One of my best photos (IMHO) depicts a small scene of a girl begging while playing the accordion in the streets of Rhodes, while two pairs of legs of some elegantly dressed men enter the frame in the background. The image was shot while walking past the girl and quickly turning back to snap the image. I think it's a good picture that tells a story. But it's not tack sharp...
Fun fact!: One cool thing about that quote is that it was actually stolen many times! The first person to say it was T.S. Eliot, who purposefully bastardized a quote from W.H. Adams. Adams had said that "great poets imitate and improve, whereas small ones steal".
Eliot switched these, saying "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal"
Picasso later stole this, simplifying it even more, then it was stolen again by Steve Jobs.
Superb - another well used phrase. People that can.Do. those that can’t. Teach. Those that can do neither. Criticise.
David Bowie never liked his music remixed. He said it was "like letting someone go out and walk your dog and coming back with a different dog"
Cover bands don't change the world, but cover bands get work.
If you look at any “minimalist” work, they all look the same. It’s almost impossible it feels for anyone to be unique. All jetty’s with a black abs white long exposure tend to look the same!
If a photograph looks just like the work of a great photographer, nobody should assume one is copying the other.
Many aspects of photography have a natural appeal.
I have seen many photographs by famous photographer's that I would deem uninteresting.
Yet, I have seen absolutely stunning photos by amateurs.
A great photograph is a great photograph, no matter who takes it.
I worry about this, and I worry because I try not to be influenced by anyone. I make what I love from my own ideas but, without knowing people have said this is a rip off of De Kooning or Salgado. This is such a compliment but at the same time I feel a drop in my heart. It really is a struggle and lately I’m struggling. Thanks for all the Education, inspiration and when I feel the drop you bring me back to keep trying. Thank you.
I was thinking on this lately. I find myself more interested in my “student” ideas than my more recent “institutionalized” ideas. I found myself with a camera much later on in life, and when I dove into it, I went all in without influences... and my ideas were so alive and original, inspired by my inner thoughts and upbringing (admittedly amateur, but the ideas were there). Now here I am always testing new looks and ideas, but I find myself shaking off the walls that have been put up over the years as a professional working photographer. I expect my work to always evolve, and I do see maturity in my work, but there is still something about my un-influenced ideas that I long to unearth. Great video as always, Pardon my selfish rant.
I'm older in years but young as a photographer. A photographer friend of mine who follows me on Flickr said he can see a distinct style starting to evolve. I took that as a high compliment. I think it best for a style to evolve organically. Obviously you take cues from fellow artists, and many freely offer those cues (RUclips, etc.). But your own vision comes from finding what you like to shoot and how you like to shoot & process through trial & error.
This is such a relevant topic right now and your timing couldn't be better as it applies to a project I am working on. Love your channel more Terd Talks please!
I agree with you. It's like a jigsaw puzzle.
You have to find and fill in missing pieces
to make your photographs to yours.
Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made - John Ronda Rousey Tolkien
it is rather difficult to achieve originality; everything is remixed in some way shape or form.
Well, I believe this video is not about remixing, it's about carbon copying.
No I dont agree with that, and if you think like that, you might just as well pack up and go home!!
Inspiration is one thing but it's still best to be unique in our own way.
Agree when it comes to straight copying of another's work, but think it is far less clear in a wider context. All too often encounter people tap tackling developing photographers by looking at work where they have shot the world as they see it, putting their soul into the process, by dismissing it as derivative of [insert famous photographer name]. Most of the time they are oblivious to the pro they are supposed to be mimicking, let alone had any intent on copying. Worse still, often the comparison is a lazy put down of it, as the resemblance is fleeting at best. Then the self doubt of the artist can set in. Let people experiment and flourish freely, some will find themselves in similar places to others at times, but that is not unsurprising as many of us overlap in the spaces our bodies and minds exist in.
the truth is all art builds off the art that came before and we all live on the same earth.
GREAT TOPIC. Copying and saying its yours =BAD....... using a technique to create with your own twist=GOOD. That IS learning.
What are your thoughts on Tyler Shields? I've heard so many mixed things, but most people say he's not respected in the photography community because of some of his more famous works being blatant rip-offs, yet he's very successful and thrives in the industry
"Doesn't have a point of view, knows not whee he"s going to......"
Good point raised. I saw a dramatic change in photographers I know closely - most are no longer giving the location where photos were taken. Too many copycats out there! Gear doesn't matter much anymore, key is all to know about the location. I think it's a natural occurrence since so many started to do photography. Developing your own style(s) is key.
Reminded me of a funny criticism that a professor allegedly wrote on a paper. 'Your essay is both original and interesting; unfortunately the original parts aren't interesting and the interesting parts aren't original.'
I just checked Kenna’s photos, and I was amazed.
You're batting them out of the park this year! Keep up the great work.
Is it really stealing if you don't know you're doing it?
Let me explain.
If an artist produces something with no knowledge of work/style/process of the original and develops a similar result, what really constitutes it as stealing or copying? Something like this is rare, I know, but it is completely possible. With the artist doing zero research, zero studies, and simply doing trial and error, would this not be possible to later compare the two with the realization of the similarities?
I understand that an exact match or something so strikingly similar would have highly suggestive connotations of originality, yet self-studies, experiments, and developments can produce outcomes that can be very similar to someone else's, completely by accident.
Without the offender completely stating that it was a direct copy, you would never know. Always have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
4:18 still think, Sudek had some silk or nylon fabric covering his lens in that egg image
I see the problem with breaking through with one's own style in photography today, in mass media momentum and online contests. When you look at trending photos ( pick your favourite platform ), there are dynamics at hand which are similar to what happens to Facebook users: you are fed what you "subscribe to". So certain styles bubble up, to a greater part, owing to the algorithms. Although trend setting artist, who broke through with their own styles, more often than not found patrons outside of those mass media outlets. But once a style breaks through and finds its audience, it becomes a flood with all the emulators and the audience which wants more of the same. And then there are the online contests, which are flooded with the trending styles. A judge in such a contest is not immune to trends especially when they are under time pressure and going through a mountain of submissions.
agree on principle but you know, both the Stones and Elvis "stole" lots of their songs and did okay
They added their own style
@@outtathyme5679 You mean they had producers and commercial opportunities. Led Zeppelin did the same thing.
Not sure if I agree with your analogy. To my knowledge Elvis never 'stole' any songs. Permission had to be given and he then put his unique style and sound on them. He never claimed them as his own and copyright and credit was always given to the original artist.
@@frankanderson5012 led zep actually did strain a lot of song lyrics and riffs as their own
@Black Bamboo I guess theirs didn't.
Ted, I love the way you have composed the background behind you. I can tell that you were very careful about just how much of the room(s) behind you were included in the frame, where the edges fall, the way the light is, etc. Just an excellent and artistic composition that is a perfect backdrop for your video. You even made sure that there is a perfect blank wall area behind your head, and that your head does not awkwardly overlap the doorway or the edge of the frame behind you. Genius!
Same as in the Science, Mathematics or Philosophy... sometimes practitioners arrive at the similar points not knowing for the other... I, myself recently through the wonderful capabilities of the Internet learned about a prominent photographer that not everyone on the amateur side knows... "Soul brothers". Incredible learning experience.
When it comes to music, I really love cover versions - those that transform the original song into something new. Quite a few Bob Dylan songs, for example, have been transformed in that way, or take some of the late Johnny Cash cover versions, Sinéad O‘Connor‘s version of Prince‘s „Nothing Compares to You“ or the Balanescu Quartet‘s version of Kraftwerk songs. They are „just“ cover versions, yet are creative in their own way. A friend of mine has built a number of paintings, like from Vermeer and Rembrandt, as three-dimensional Lego sets to take photos of them in the perspective and lighting of the original paintings; in a way that‘s a cover version, a copy, too - yet at the same time they are original works. So, I would agree that „just“ copying may be useful for learning purposes - I really liked the Sudek tasks!. But that can only be a starting point from where to venture into creativity. For me, I have also found that I tend to lose interest in taking a photo when there are (many) other people around taking more or less the same photo; that‘s also why I don‘t understand the crowds of photographers at those famous spots. But that‘s just me, I guess.
I think that being a great artist is being a DB Cooper- in and out without a trace, and many people wonder what happened after.
Every great guitarist started by copying someone's style and then ploughed their own furrow.
How strange, this very afternoon (23 June 2021) BBC Radio 4 over here in the UK broadcast a programme that talked about originality and about the way we absorb influences filters through us and affects us. The more influences we take on the more something distinctively ours or “original” can be produced.
Everything has been done. I bet if you type in search engines for "photos of baked beans" or Biros nibs in black and white, blurry washing hanging on a line, red filtered honey bee photos. I bet someone has done it. You cannot be truly original in a 2x3, 4x3, 16x9 rectangle, but you can be prolific and loud.
Agree, copy to learn, then relate to your own work, Joseph Sudek does not receive enough publicity of his work. I used his work last year to get a 'handle' on how he created the light. Still trying! Hear plenty about Ansel Adams on landscape photography but using the reflections and filtered light like Joseph is difficult. I will keep at it.
Came in thinking you were going to disagree with the mindset but you only confirmed my decision to start pulling awat from copying 😊
If someone shows you how to solve a problem or a path around an obstacle and you continue to use those solutions then you are copying. If you see a problem or run into an obstacle and seek your own solution or course around it then you are being creative. I feel that finding your own solutions is better even when others don’t always see it as the best way. It is the path less traveled but more rewarding.
"Cover bands don't change the world." True by definition. But playing in a cover band is how many working musicians put food on their tables and pay their bills. Especially in this day and age where recording contracts are not easy to come by and far less lucrative for many musicians who do get signed. I get your point, and I know that you meant no slight or knock on any working musician. I just think that the cover band analogy isn't a good one to describe derivative online photographers.
Thanks for your fascinating insights.
I love to study the photography of the others to gain inspiration, but I agree that a style derived purely from others is just a pale reflection of the original and is pointless really.
Sometimes I take a step back from photography and study great painters, sculptors and other artists. Artists in fields other than photography often distill the essence of their subject in a manner analogous to great photographs, and in a way it is relaxing because you can gain inspiration without the sneaking feeling that you are going to just end up making inferior versions of their originals.
I find the abstract sculpture of Barbara Hepworth to be truly inspirational, and since I don't sculpt there is no danger of being a copycat...
Well said Ted, There's a paucity among the self appointed artists with the issue in the city where I live - appropriation is so
on exhibit - genuine work is misunderstood and dismissed for not being on trend..
So true! Leonardo DaVinci stole almost everything he did. He did refine it, but not his ideas.
The Beatles copied many artists when they started out but then developed their own style which was 'quite' successful. There's a new band called Greta Van Fleet at the moment and when they started a few years ago they sounded exactly like Led Zeppelin but now they're developing their own style. I think it's ok ish to copy for a while as you develop your own artistic muscles. It reminds me if a child dancing on their parents feet just to experience how it feels to dance.
"New" sort of ...they where formed 2012 but I can agree they are new for me and I like them 😊
@@matssandquist9258 Yes ... It's all relative 😁
True that it’s boring and quite senseless to copy, as fe Fred Herzog said it’s most important to find yourself in photography and that most counts in this time where all the references are so widely published and available. I once made a parallel to andreas Gursky’s Rhein, as this photo was retouched with removal of the background I found the same composition in the Netherlands where you could make the same shot without photoshop. I guess that unless the visual difference was not really there the concept was different and so I guess that my photo should be sold for twice the price as it was not cheap photoshop.
I not sure that I steal but I definitely acquire knowledge from other photographers work by trying to recreate an image and then add what I have learnt to my repertoire of skills. But I still have a individual style because of what and how I shoot.
I have been at this point and have used others work as a basis for learning and now I want to do my own thing which is proving difficult. I deliberately don’t look at other photographers work now as I don’t want to be influenced, consciously or unconsciously. Photography block sucks!
ignorance, responsibility, character. check one or more boxes. All you can do is you and not worry over it. It use to piss me off but over it. Was in a gallery a few years back and told the gallerist that i loved the Arbus to which they replied oh that's not Diane's it's so and so's work. Was in format, subject, printing, etc. and i asked why that was not a problem for so and so or the gallery. They replied the reality is someone will be ignorant of Diane's work and may buy this one or they may be aware of Diane's work and not be able to afford it and buy this one. Again, check one or more boxes. I spent two years photographing around the world on travels as a side thing something i found interesting and funny. My working title for the project was Bought the Postcard and was images of people in some recognizable places some not taking selfies or having their companions or total strangers taking pictures of them in those places. At first it was funny, then a fascination, then an obsession that turned into an interesting, IMO, body of work that i began to drop out on IG and edit to shop around or just do my own thing and make a book to shop around. It was about this time i read on Magnum that Martin Parr's new book was titled Death by Selfie and they had some images up from the yet to be published book and that was they day my project ended. Again, check one or more of the boxes. for me responsibility, check, character, check and move on.
My philosophy students sometimes ask me whether their essays need to be original. I tell them that anyone can be original, It's easy. Just say any old crap that no one has said before. Saying something interesting, coherent, and thought-provoking - that's what is hard.
Having extensively studied the topic of generic transformations whilst studying at the University of Birmingham, I believe there is no such thing as an original thought. Not only in literature but also in photography, and all other arts.
This is so good, Ted. It's so selfish, but I'm thrilled you've been pumping out these "older styled" AOP videos. No insult to other videos of yours, but this style of video always makes me think, and I always learn something that I then carry with me. Thank you so much for your words
I’m currently looking at some of my photography from the mid-1980s and am thinking about stealing from myself. I feel a bit like I’ve lost my way and am making photographs that look like what a photograph is supposed to look like. I want to go back to shooting stuff where people say “what the hell did you take a picture of that for?”
I'm so glad I'm subscribed to you. You're so down-to-earth and so direct in your thoughts.
Thanks Ted for a very interesting and challenging video! I appreciate your giving us context and history to go along with the skills you teach us.
Well said sir. I’ve noticed that many of the RUclips photographers/teachers seem to teach many of the same lessons. One after the other and it’s getting annoying. It was interesting at first. Now it’s getting so redundant I am watching fewer and fewer photography related videos. (Which for me is good. Them? Not so much.
Continuing to think about this… I believe my primary goal is to be authentic. I say “goal” because I know I’m not there. Will I know when I am? If I say it, then probably not.
Ted, thanks for sharing! I’m always interested in hearing your perspective as a younger artist who’s developing their style and way they shoot behind a lens
I guess you somewhat mentioned it, is the goal to create or to go viral. I just think of all the tik tok videos that show up on instagram and facebook (and I am not even on tik tok) but they are all of a person dancing - and pointing at words. If honest we all want to be creative and go viral. Copying can be a great starting place when we are starting out or trying to learn something new but it should never be our final destination.
Ted, another exceptional video. I want to say thanks again for continuing to produce content that’s more about artistic vision and intent behind the production of quality work than the typical arguments over camera specs. Any decent camera is going to produce a quality image as long as the photographer uses the camera as a means to capture a worthwhile image!
i think the assumption and, to be honest, the arrogance is a lot of people think that whatever they're doing is actually original or unique. Now, granted, this isnt to say there aren't pioneers and originators in any craft, even to this day. or that there aren't people blatantly ripping off the work of others. i just dont believe we're as original as we think we are. but i feel, as creators (of anything) we should be putting our fingerprint on our creations in some way so that we can graduate out of emulation and copying and to the level of cumulation 'genius', if you will.
Life question, cover band or innovator who do you want to be? Great video!
with billions of images posted online every single day, is originality attainable any more in any case?
Yes, just look at Mike Kelley
Hardly
There's a lot to unpack in this... I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with adhering to a certain style or genre of art and I wouldn't call that stealing or even copying, per se. In any style or genre of art there are conventions that define the style or genre it so it's natural to draw comparisons to both those that came before as well as contemporaries, but it doesn't mean that adhering to conventions of a style or genre is bad, or even that one should actively strive to avoid those conventions. Obviously there's always a line that can be crossed but in something like the Michael Kenna example, I wouldn't call all high contrast minimalistic landscape images all copies/thefts of his work. Sure, it may be the same style... but is it copying or stealing to simply create work of a particular style or genre? I'd argue that the only innovators are ones that invent a completely new style or genre... and I wouldn't say it's "better to be an innovator than it is a culminator". That's a pretty subjective thing. You don't have to "innovate" to offer something new and original. I don't think it's necessarily beneficial to teach people to think like that. If I write a great melody and harmonize it in a unique way, I'd hate to be told "You didn't innovate...that's still music in X genre, despite your personal touch and creativity therefore it's somehow lesser"
Good artist steal, great artist steals but never get caught
Culminator or perhaps "integrator" as the integration of all that came before. Good clear presentation. Thanks
wait, so you're saying all those photographers making images of monks reading books inside temples at Bagan aren't being original?
Very good vid Ted, obvious and yet a worthy subject to stimulate the mind/eye in how to be aware and improve one's photography
"Cover bands don't change the world". Tell that to The Beatles. Then again, I guess that they went from cover band to culminators to innovators.
Even as a cover band with Phil Sheridan, they took the music and made it theirs with their style. As did Elvis with his covers of Hound Dog and Big Mama Thorton songs.
Cover bands may not change the world, but they still bring a lot of pleasure to people. And maybe that’s good enough. I have a friend who fronts a band dedicated to the music of Stevie Ray Vaughan, and I can assure you that he’s probably one of the best guitarists in Southern California.
Every time I take my camera out of the bag I strive to do the best with it that I can. Sometimes I take an image that pleases me; often I come home empty-handed. Still, even given my occasional successes I’ve developed no consistent style that I can determine. I may just have to live with that, and the possibility that in spite of my love for this craft my gifts may in fact be fairly modest. Not everyone gets to be Mozart.
If someone has real talent and sees new and original work that excites and inspires them, it is mainly because they see something of themselves in the work of someone else that tells them they are on the right track to forming their own unique vision. So, be alert!
Easy: Who copy's is not a true artist. Bebause when you express YOURSELF as a real artist, it is impossible to copy. ...
Great topic Ted Forbes and the innovators or culminator example fits perfectly! In the current climate everyone wants to be original and at the same time be an economical success but there are those who will be but as you pointed out making original work may not be a lot of people's cup of tea. Thank you for loving Photography and making great content in your wonderful channel!
too many photographers too many platforms it's very hard these days to come up with something original .
Ted, totally agree that cover bands don’t change the world but- who can afford the hire the Rolling Stones for an event. Their music is great and a great cover band will bring a lot of joy to the masses. Visually who can afford a print by a photo master. Surely affordable art has its place? MJ
this channel got me to look at photography different already did it but never tried to use it in my art
It's all about learning. I have my photographers I admire and am inspired by. I think Bruce Lee said something about studying different styles of martial arts but it applies here as well, take what works for you and discard the rest. I'll see something from someone I like and try to figure out how it was lit shot etc. I'll try to recreate it but put my twist on it. Then I can use that new knowledge to further develop my style. Most everything has already been done. For example, to think I'm the only one to shoot a portrait with a pink and blue background is ridiculous. To do it with my own style though, makes it my own. I hope that makes sense.
I guess what I'm trying to say is to be inspired by and emulate to learn is ok. Blatantly copying someone else is not.
Wow another great video, thank you. The content you create, the quality of your videos... very special. To me maybe the best photography or shall I say „art of photography“ channel. Keep up the great work!
Hi Ted thank you... Your videos are always informative and inspiring... Legendary photographer Raghu Rai always advice his students... When you go out to photograph.. Forget all the good photos you have seen...
The Steal part means to take and make your own. At least that's how I interpret that phrase.
Interesting video and it’s good to hear your thoughts. I think what also might be a contributor to culmination isn’t necessarily because it’s easy to copy, but because of confidence within that person. Especially in todays world for recognition and how easy it is to want to compare yourself to others around you, again especially how that recognition is rates in likes and views.
Great talk! Cheers!
My interpretation of artistic stealing is taking something and making it your own. As to just copying which never is yours. But it remains a distinctive possibility of course, that Jobs just blurted it out without meaning anything just because it sounded nice.
He stole the line from Picasso, who stole it from someone else, ad infinitum. All were likely misquoted. ;)
Now I know whom those preset cloud filters imitate: Michael Kenna. Copying an artist is industrialized and automated. I'm sure there are other presets that copy other artists. Artistically abhorrant, but practically some people do get exposure with it(obviously admired by those who don't know the original artist)!