Know Your Unit: Fighter/Vanguard [Unicorn Overlord Class Guide]
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- Опубликовано: 25 мар 2024
- This class gets a lot of hate, but I think they do their jobs well. They are a unit that does many different jobs OK, but it's when it all comes together that their value shines through. Provoke has a lot of trickery to it. Those Hunter shields are insane in their hands.
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Fighter/Vanguard's biggest problem is that for most of the game they compete with Hoplite/Legionnaire as a defensive class, and everything else on offensive merits. It's not until Lv.25 that Provoke allows Vanguard to come into its own with the unique ability to control the direction of enemy attacks to tank, as opposed to spending PP to guard every individual attacks like its peers, and without interfering with their niche of blocking arrows for back row squishies and fliers. If Provoke were learned earlier, I don't think people would have as dim a view of the class.
3:11 I love and hate that my biggest gripes about the game are tiny little annoying things like this that don't matter. Regional variants appear to have been a design goal that went by the wayside when budget problems cropped up. Thankfully the plague doctor clerics retain their mask on promotion, as that's the most significant one, and at least hoplite helms carry over as well. I wonder how many different versions of classes and their promotions would have existed had that idea carried through.
Provoke is also a bait.
If he is at front it naturally will be hit. If it target archers his Arrow cover 0 damage will be wasted. It affects only one row.
He hasn't the bulk to tank 3 unit attacks.
It is the worst start of battle ability.
@@marlonruvalcaba386 I can't help you if your vanguard is somehow having problems taking physical hits, especially lategame, but aside from that, you are completely ignoring that front row enemies do not necessarily target the front row. For example, I'd very much prefer fliers target my single front row vanguard than the row of three casters in the back. And I don't have to worry about arrow cover being wasted when I can just change which row gets provoked in the first place. Whether it's the "worst start of battle ability" matters little to me when it serves the purpose I intend.
They are still pretty distinct in their usage as opposed to hopilites early on due to gear. Swords and lances are both very strong weapon types but there are areas one covers far better then the other. For example crit builds are pretty exclusively a sword thing and getting your fighter to crit can put their damage on line with an actual offensive class. Unwavering spear is an example of something excellent that fighter just doesn’t have an equivalent of by the same token. Hoplites can setup chain reactions for stuff like knights and warriors with the piercing it provides and handle scouts effectively. I’d also say defender is also an excellent skill later on as well. Using something like a wide pursuit build with the pursuit earnings that is dependent on your passive points is a lot better if you can gain passive points in the middle of the fight.
@@marlonruvalcaba386fighter’s fine at taking physical hits assuming he’s blocking and he should have 100% guard rate when using provoke. You should also realistically be running a sainted knight with a fighter to block magic. And protecting the back row from griffons wyverns or bow units is pretty effective
@@ultimaterecoil1136 You are correct that the class has plenty of distinction when accounting for gear, but the reason I made the comparison to Hoplite is because players are first going to judge a class by their out-of-the-box performance and intrinsic abilities. Both it and Fighter give the appearance of being defensive frontliners, but Hoplite is statistically the better mitigator with a more flexible guard ability. Even factoring in weapons, Unwavering Spear brings more utility than, say, the commonly recommended Sanguine Sword, which is just a bandaid on Fighter's inefficacy, and then courts comparison with Gladiator on the basis of which is the better recovery-based frontliner. They become more formidable after promotion and only get better through midgame to late, but take too long to get anything that intrinsically sets them apart and definitively says "only Vanguard can do this" before the player's perception of middling capability is cemented.
"I've seen no one talking about this." Where have you been? Fighters pulling towers is the only redeeming quality people have highlighted since the demo (and Berengaria does it too so oof)☠
I haven't heard much about it, not sure what to tell ya.
"The dictionary term is... that they got their s**t rocked"
I may have laughed harder than I should have at that lol.
There are few more apt descriptions for the steamroll that happened from their first showing 🤣
I like fighters. But they seem to be in a tough spot. Provoke can be good, though it’s a shame there’s so many other busted *start of battle* abilities that are much preferable and that you can only pick one as far as I know. Plus there’s a lot of really good unique class tanks - Alain /virginia/berengaria (through punishing abilities rather than raw stats).
And honestly, in my opinion, I think phys defenders are just way worse tanks than dodge tanks. You do want access to both - but there’s so many things in the game that get around physical defenders. Magic, breakers, and debuffs really hurt traditional frontlining. Just getting stunned negates your ability to use PP or guard. I don’t know how good fighter evasion is but I found evasion tanking in general to be better.
I like arrow guard but it just seems like a worse version of heavy cover. Consider that heavy cover will also defend from piercing column attacks. Arrow guard negates damage but I don’t think it negates status effects which is Ugh. I do like the valor ability and provoke seems like it could be amazing. I haven’t touched multiplayer myself.
I wish I could give them the custom name of scarecrow, because their real job is protecting my horses from birds.
They're a neat uniqueish absolute nullification of a damage type.
Especially if you run a single cav unit in the front with Lex, he'll end up completely blocking the row attack from fliers.
The extra valor points is why I use them. That alone is a godsend.
Provoke is so dang good.
I think the thing that can really make them great when mixed with other units is that they take 0 damage if they cover a ranged attack. They were key to letting me clear the solo colliseum at level 20.
It's a handy immunity. It gets compared to heavy guards, but stacks can still chip hard vs heavies sometimes, and immunity is immunity, avoiding a lot of the tricks that catch Hoplites.
They're the defensive "jack of all trades" class, similar to Soldier being the offensive variant. The problem is that you have so many ways to cover gaps where they shine with Valor Skills and Items (not to mention hiring mercenaries for specific team compositions), that there's really little reason to use them.
Some classes are filler/weaker than others, that doesn't mean they're bad. It's just the norm with these things, they always get shifted to black or white; there's never an in-between for some people.
The arbalists smoke screen is more useful than the provoke because it totally negates the assist.
It negates it, but it can come back. Provoke and kill, it doesn't.
And the Bells that are very cheap do the exact same thing as the Provoke Valor skill
It is the same you smoke screen and kill. But it is safer
@@GamerGarm hallowed corne ash gives two valor points one to provoke and one for other use. Using bells just to provoke one unit on a 10 item limit 🤣
@@VanguardCommanderAC I meant that you don't even need to field Vanguards to use provoke.
It's so weird seeing fighter/Vanguard getting a lot of hate when it's be a solid class for mine gameplays. For me it's just like any other classes, at the right lvl, growths and equipment it can be a strong front line unit. I think with so many other units in the game a bias toward other units gets formed.
It's a fun toolset, and a really economic way to advance through support networks. Also, thank you so much!
In TZ I started to respect the 100 mobility. They just get more done in the same time. Fighters are not as fast as Clive and the other horses or the scout but they get to places and every moving squad helps while a single squad can defend all your bases. Only other unit without a horse that can do similar tanking was the shaman. I was not expecting that, looking at her stumbling around, but she is the one caster without 80 mobility in the early game.
Plus I forgot to mention it here, but being able to counter Flyers is pretty important.
The wind gods are from Greek mythology, so they're not copying the names, just the name scheme.
I didn't examine classes very closely, but I'd put fighter around B tier. They didn't stand out, but Lex stayed in my roster for the whole playthrough.
True, but these specific things are no accident.
Early game, especially after you obtain the Sanguine Blade, is when Lex actually feels great. Then you get to Drakenhold/Elheim and he falls off in the sense that every other unit seems like a better unit than him.
I wonder if that's what they're going to do in the sequel, make Lex's descendant be the hero while Alain's fall into depravity because of evil or something. Maybe even make Lex a bloody reincarnator.
This sounds bad and a convenient reason for lex to be good and I want it 😂
huh didn't know provoke would cause units to drop from their towers to go after you, pretty much i only ever used the dudes as back row support for my chickens. also I cannot hear Jeremy talk without me imagining him as a fantasy version of G1 Michigan (same voice actor in english if people didn't know).
If I could name every Vanguard Albany, I would.
@@CoffeePotato Kennebec and Osawa too
Dope
The fighter is such a hard unit to get everyone on the same page on. It's biggest flaws are it's best strengths, it's best strengths highlight their flaws. They're literally and exactly as good and bad as you treat them. Is that a positive? Is that a negative? Seems like most people leans towards a negative. But few things are ever that binary.
Thing is, the fighter is given the base role of tanking, but a completely and relatively barren kit. This puts them in a position of being relatively bland and unappealing, while also not accomplishing much without investment. But it puts them in the perfect situation to be customized to the teeth for many different purposes.
The issue is their base tanking role. This cuts their offense compared to something like sellswords, and it puts them in direct competition with hoplites. which leads to them just being "worse than everyone". but the thing about it is that they arent sellswords. they arent hoplites.
If you give a sword to sellsword with an active skill on it? you dont get killing chain and grand cross(or at least make them choose). Hoplites? well they guard better and greatshields guard even better on top. but you know what they dont have? small shields. which have some pretty good effects, such as healing on block, or blocking for free. heck, even with greatshields, you still want that PP for row cover.
Will equipment suddenly make the vanguard your top 5 unit that can hypercarry you? No. Does that make the vanguard a complete lynchpin for this hyper offense charge combo nuke teams? no.
But what it does do is make the vanguard a relatively fresh canvas to wedge itself into a group and do EXACTLY what is needed to. DoT? they dont lose much from changing swords. a dodge tank? they use the thief mantle extremely well and dont instantly fold when the evasion gets countered. Not using arrow cover? look at all that PP that can be used for buff support, covers, or first aid kit healing! alot of other units have much higher opportunity costs and decisions to make with all this random equipment you buy and loot. a fighter will make good use of most of it.
Can other sword classes get more out of specific sword like magical ones to bypass armor? yeah. But that same magically inclined unit may not want to cause burn, or change their skill set around for, say, critting. theres always some sort of opportunity cost, but i've noticed that it's relatively low for vanguard, and there always happen to be a pile of special swords collecting dust that no one else is using anyway
Every unit becomes better with investment, that's the thing.
You can customize with Tactics when to use the weapon skills and when to use the class skills.
Having a "bad" kit that the item skills are more appealing is not a positive. Its a negative.
Since other classes give you a choice. You can always decide NOT to use the item skills and just use the passive buffs.
Exactly, it's a feature in it's own right that they don't need to worry about direct damage, like the sheer slap chop potential of the Sellsword
@@GamerGarm Lord, I can get wordy, but i'll try to be ever so slightly more direct:
Direct comparisons. Same "investment" (which wasnt even really a talking point for me). The usual parallels.
Which do you think is the overall better frontline tank: A Legionnaire with a Thief Mantle. Or a Vanguard with a Thief Mantle?
The legionnaire makes rather good use of a thief mantle, They can take the hits that bypass evade, and it can be used to somewhat negate their weakness to magic and hammers. But since it is a PP skill, they take the opportunity cost of losing uses of their cover skills, both against arrows or their powerful row guard abilities. you, effectively, lose uses and access to them for evade.
A Vanguard is weak to the same things, so evade gives them the same benefits, and they are relatively as bulky to stray hits. If provoke is just "bad" or "worse" and arrow guard is just niche, then what is the vanguard paying to be just as good as the legionnaire here? Not much. Less than the legionnaire, anyway.
The same is true for other items too: first aid kits, dancer bracelets, gambler coins, Shield effects like the hunter shields, the squire shield's cover.
When did customization and versatility get spun a negative trait? Is it a bad thing that there is a unit that makes good use of ALL of them, instead of some units making use of them sometimes?
@@Fluff2556
The same problems you describe for the Legionnaire affect the Vanguard.
That Evade PP is using up potential Arrow Cover, the one good thing Vanguards are for.
That's the thing. If your team doesn't fear ranged attacks, then sure. But that is true for every single class.
Like I said, every class can equip an item and, depending on the rest of the Team, choose to either use the item skill or not.
If the "advantge" the Vanguard has is that the class kit is so bad its almost always better to use item skills, then you just proved everyone's point right there.
Item skills should be situational and tailored to the team comp. Even Potato loved using the Runic Sword on Alain for the magic attack, and Alain has some GREAT skills and is not a Vanguard.
The thing is, you should set up a tactic to not use Magic Attack if there's cavalry present, since Saint Knights can use Magic Ward and negate your magic attack.
Or... not, if you have mages in the back row then perhaps you do want to use Magic Attack to purge that PP so they cannot use Magic Ward when the mages drop the nukes.
That's the thing. Items take up a slot. You could use items that only give passive bonuses or that give skills, or both. And you can always choose to not use the item skill or limit to a very specific situation and use the class skills the rest of the time.
Every class can benefit from good item setup. Vanguard requires good items to be effective. That is not good.
@@GamerGarmAnd this is why the first thing i said is that it's hard to be on the same page, which makes vanguard very weird. Because what makes it bad and what makes it good are largely the same thing, which makes us both feel like we're talking past eachother.
At the end of the day, whether or not its a case of bad because it needs it or good because it can utilize it, vanguard is still mostly a unit you use to plug a hole in a team comp. whether its tanking, support, or what have you. it'll never really be a hypercarry unit. its definitely low on totem pole. Heck, I'm barely advocating for using all your best stuff on them, just maybe see how they do with some crap youre probably not even using in your bag. theyre like a mini gilbert, a bulky thief, a melee shield shooter. just... not out of the box.
even with me being semi-positive, i still only really use 2 of the guys myself. well... 1 and a half. im kinda testing the limits on the second one. still; much less than the 10+ sainted knights sprinkled into nearly every other unit. Aint no amount of item slots that can compete with what is probably the single best and most versatile unit in the game.
Vanguard, IMO, has the DnD Fighter problem - it trades identity for versatility so skilled players often tend to min-max a spellcaster or something while newer players are unsure what to do with too wide possibilities. Considering that its devs tend to not create series of games but independent projects it might be both first and finsl Unicorn Overlord (though I'ď love Fire Emblem approach of mechanic based series running different stories) we essentially all started as newbies and gotten drawn to specialist classes while poor Vanguard got relegated to "I guess my fliers need anti-bow guy" duty just as DnD fighter rarely becomes an archer, shieldwall specialist etc. In 99% cases staying a bruiser or a tank.
Thought they sucked at first but very useful mid to late game…
isn't the hood op becuse it lets you use charge skills in one turn?
It's not the only means to do that, and they're always super expensive to use.
you're all over the place. I recommend scripted videos so your information is conveyed with little rambling. I can't finish a video of yours because of how lost I am
I ramble, it's how things go here. This is a hobby to cover my favorite stuff in between other things. I've tried scripts, but ultimately it did little to help.
Lol the answer is yes fighters are bad. But great early game
Fighter isn’t bad. only Lex is bad
to me looking at them like the main tank is the problem they are more like bruisers you put them on the frontline in groupes or alongside a main tank to make your units sturdier and less succepible to counters witout loosing as mutch damage as you would with only tanks
They are better as an off tank for when a dodge tank gets hit with a low percent hit or true strike is in play while still doing reasonable damage.
The units bad, not unplayable but bad and there is a better option for everything they do. Their attack skills are poor, they have a fundamental issue that they are slow but want to buff their defense with active skills, this does not work. They are also sword locked with medium shields which isnt great as swords have some pretty mid active skills on them compared to the other melee weapons and they dont even get a greatshield. Their stat distribution is weird being a more damaging tank but much less effective at tanking and still doing bad damage. They have the armored tag which is terrible and their provoke valor skill which is probably their single best feature can be achieved with one of the most commonly given items in the game AND Berengaria one of the best characters in the game has it too. The unit is bad, again not unplayable if you like it but it is as suboptimal as you can be in this game
Didn't watch to the end, I take it? Swords get a lot of trick weapons, and especially DoT options. They even get some of the fencing swords, which gives them the means to poison and burn an entire team, while also buffing offense from the debuff. Hunter Shields basically serve as a Great shield guard against the targets they Provoke, but also basically block for free. They're trickier, but solid at the middle road they're trying to walk.
@@CoffeePotato
I did actually and I still said what I said. Stop being so sensitive anytime someone disagrees. Flame and Poison swords are not good. Ive already beaten the game with a 100 hour save file and Im working on my true zenoiran. Im very aware of what is in the game. But since we want to be an asshole about it lets talk about how youre wasting your two magic blades on this dogshit unit. One of the best classes in the game the Sainted Knight uses it infinitely better. There is opportunity cost to wasting them on Vanguards.
@@thomasmitchell7815 You simply got a response, and you're crying because they didn't give you an opinion that completely trashes the class. You say Poison and Flame swords aren't good in specific team comps that utilize them to buff. Even before this video, I've used them successfully on DoT teams. You beat the game? Ok, it's not like you earned a Nobel Prize. What is the point of mentioning that? Then you call him nasty name. You clearly have some issues when someone makes a video about game class and you're pretending they're committing a crime. Go touch some grass.
They work great at providing pinpoint coverage for your party members. A great off tank. Are there better options? It depends on your strategy. The coliseum is great for testing out tactics but not implementing strategy.
I have an anti cavalry squad that loves lex in it. When he doesn't need to defend, he can buff or heal. His main duty on my team is to defend Frontline Dodgers or tank hits from colum attacks. He also sits in the back line most of the time.
@@axel8406
But they dont though. They cannot cover anyone outside of ranged attacks. Unless youre talking about Squire shield or something similar and in that case anyone could do it so we would have to evaluate Vanguard on its stats. Oh and look at that its a suboptimal option. Off tank? I understand the term but where at in this game is the concept of off tank useful? This isnt an MMO raid and the games mechanics dont support this as an optimal role. No idea what the point about coliseum and strategy is trying to convey thats relevant to the conversation please explain. Vanguards also do not buff or heal, they can with certain items but then again leads back to the anyone could then and the Vanguard would be the worst or one of the worst choices available. Sitting a tank in the back line is again an opportunity cost as you are using a slot where someone with damage could be and then you still have to put a second tank on the team because you can only have 3 backliners. Again I want to reiterate that it is possible to use a vanguard and make it work. My point isnt its unplayable, clearly youre doing it. My point is that it is always worse than a different option and thats true. You liking something is not the same thing as that something being good. Vanguards are comparatively bad that is just how it is in the present state of the game