@@hdckighfkvhvgmk Of course it's a number. Numbers are infinite! I could just randomly type, let's say... 6.910741765716578236572156291e84923748. And that's a number.
My favorite idle games are the ones that grow seemingly infinitely more complex as they go or even become completely different games. A Dark Room, Kittens Game, Candy Box. Cookie clicker doesn't really hold my attention - what I find enjoyable about these types of games is less the numbers going up and more the surprise of finding out what new mechanic or element or complete change of gameplay is coming next.
Cookie Clicker has changed so much in just a few years. They have an ascension tree, a farming mini-game, and a practically infinite amount of achievements.
Sandcastle Builder was my introduction to a clicker that eventually becomes ridiculously complex. Though it's been so long, maybe now that I have more experience I'll find it's not as complex as I thought...
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One of the "fun" aspects of clickers to me is the feeling that I'm making an efficient choice. There sort of is a win/fail state for me, or at least a win/not win state. I win when I grasp ways to be more efficient. It feels good calculating that buying this upgrade would be better in the long run over this other upgrade.
YES. Should I buy 10 of these upgrades or 5 of these? Or should I wait and possible get one upgrade to increase my profits even further? You put it perfectly, friend.
That's what it makes you feel. It feels good to find solutions or better efficiencies, but it is for nothing as there is no loss state or direct competition with anyone.
I've never been one for clickers, but I do remember this one time I had cookie clicker open for about 4 days straight by accident. Came back, and....well, I got the prism much earlier than I thought I would have.
I'm bored, so here's a list of (most) of the idle/clicker games shown in this video. 0:45 - Cookie Clicker orteil.dashnet.org/cookieclicker/ 0:52 - Clicker Heroes www.clickerheroes.com/ (also on Steam) 1:03 - Filll the Oceans www.filltheoceans.com/ 1:37 - Trimps trimps.github.io/ 4:06 - Megami Quest shimage.net/megamiquest/en.html 4:19 - AdVenture Capitalist bit.ly/2zTKVe1 (Kongregate, also on Steam) 5:15 - Derivative Clicker gzgreg.github.io/DerivativeClicker/ (a personal fav) 6:58 - Number www.glaielgames.com/number/
While I understand the main point of this video was likely to look at these Skinner Box kind of games and analyze them, I can't help but notice you failed to mention one of the grandfathers of this genre, Candy Box. If I recall right, the man behind Cookie Clicker has admitted to Candy Box being a huge inspiration for Cookie Clicker. However, anybody's who's beaten Candy Box or its sequel, Candy Box 2, will recognize that first starters, the game has a proper victory and second, has a failure state. Candy Box and the second are both so short you can not only beat them in a day but beat both of them in the same day. The first game has a short post-game that is part waiting, yes, but you can circumvent a large portion of it by playing yourself and figuring out how to game the system. However, they both rely on having you straight up wait at the start of the game before anything interesting happens. Progress into Candy Box can even be delayed indefinitely by mistake if you keep throwing your candies on the ground instead of waiting 60 seconds to unlock the Candy Merchant. Unless you know a trick to get candies fast from him, you then have to wait until you've built up even more candies to buy a sword. Once you've done that the entire rest of the game starts to open up. The second one is a bit better about this by giving you new stuff to get every few seconds until you open up the world. Idling is definitely a core mechanic in the Candy Box games but there is an end-goal. The failure state is pretty minimal, but being forced to wait before you can go trekking again means that failure doesn't lack consequence entirely. In the case of the first one, there's even several resources that can only be used in dungeon crawling and if you fail you do not get them back. Admittedly though, it does tend to turn them into items that are too good to be used. The Failure state and punishment from it isn't much but CB and CB2 both have failure states in addition to having genuine victory states. A Dark Room is another one of these where the mechanics unfold slowly, but it turns into an adventure where you're navigating a post-apocalypse via an ASCII map, while fighting off anybody that might get in your way. I forget if it features a time elapsed, thus encouraging speedrunning, but I do recall it features score of some kind, which allows you to aim for better runs nonetheless. This too features an end-game victory state. There's also Anti-Idle if you want to see an Idle game with a heavy focus on Anti-Idling being a huge core mechanic of the game. It features Fishing, Racing, a Card Game, a Stock Market, a massive RPG with its own set of levels and gear separate to the stuff used elsewhere, a Pet you can raise, and many other things I'm forgetting. It too uses a reset system with perks and such gained from doing so, but it also just in general features an RPG that I tended to ignore. I do not know if said RPG has a proper end state, but I do know there comes a point when you've explored everything contained there-in, even if you can't technically "finish" it. It even has its own set of reset perks attached to it. I dunno if it's in the same boat as Candy Box or A Dark Room but it definitely is one of the single most involved "Idle" games in the genre. I find it ironic that Cookie Clicker, the game that likely caused the rise in popularity of this genre, was fathered by Candy Box, which has a proper end-goal and in spite of using idling as a core mechanic, is so vastly different from the rest of the genre that it sticks out as kind of its own thing. Anti-Idle is, to my understanding, somewhere around half-way between normal Idlers and games like A Dark Room or the Candy Boxes.
you gain a dopamine reward for doing something with very little input. psychological gratification with very little effort is like the perfect recipe for non-chemical addiction.
Its sad that a lot of people in these comment section dont really remember where games came from. Everyone takes games as this amazing big thing when in really games are nothing more than entertainment. Do they have the power to be something more? Absolutly yes. Do they need to be always mind blowing or meaninful? No. One of my favourite games as a kid was to spot the different, on those journals that always had the sudoku for you to do. Its a simple concept but its fun nontheless and really taking a look to it, its nothing major, it doesnt offer many gameplay depth or anything like that but hey, its entertaining, its fun, its a way to past your time, you dont need to be efficient 100% of the time to be doing something productive, sometimes just wasting your time with these little spot the different, or the letters soups where you had to find specific words, yes they werent hard and no matter what you would always end up solving them because they are super easy but you still felt rewarded after completing them, hell you are probably not even going to remember them after that day since they didnt have that much impact, but thats the thing, not everything has to be a high induced emotional drug in our day and well, idle games, being simple or not are exactly that, a laid back kinda of game that rewards you regardless of the pace of your progress but its just something to relax, and obviously, i dont want to get into the vast resons why people actually play idle games. So lets stop being so entitled to the point of saying these are not games when they clearly are, and lets let people enjoy what they enjoy.
I enjoy games that challenge your brain. I like sudoku (even though I don't play much) and word searches and You Don't Know Jack and the Ace Attorney series. They challenge your brain and get you to think in a different perspective. With the sudoku games, you have to look at the whole picture, then the smaller pictures, then the even smaller pictures, then repeat that until you solve. It makes you look at everything, then break it down, then put it back together. Word searches just challenge your eyes and make you examine things carefully. You Don't Know Jack challenges your knowledge on the real world and math and history and stuff. Ace Attorney combines the ideas of sudoku and word searches together and makes a fun and compelling game out of it.
People, especially "gamers", don't realise this, but the same design principles implemented in "clicker games" and farmville-like waiting/idle games (and even casino style games) are in the core of the design of your favourite online (and even single player) shooter game. All your battlefields, Call of Duties, Overwatches, etc. are a series of micro or meta clicker games + idle games which are intertwined with a shooter element. Yes there may be running around, temporary fail states and so on but everything surrounding that such as unlocking weapons and cosmetics, lootboxes, levelling up, are in essence clicker/idle/mobile/casino games. Another thing almost no one knows is that although clicker/idle game have now become a genre itself the very first games created like this were in fact satires of other videogames where the creators distilled the core mechanics that makes people become addicted to Mobile and modern "triple A" games eliminating all the "unnecessary" gameplay. (e.g. www.gdcvault.com/play/1013828/Making-a-Mockery-Ruminations-on) Actually you could say that for many people that don't like to for instance to fantasise about space soldiers and unlocking weapons, weapon attachments, weapon skins, etc. clicker / idle games can be in fact legitimately MORE FUN than the now average third person shooter, online shooter or "ubigame"
You do know most shooter games take some amount of skill, right? Getting cosmetics isn't the only reason people play games you know lol, they're just rewards that look nice.
you seem very positive about a phenomenom that is basically cocaine without pleasure or a real sense of achievement that won't teach you anything while killing your time
@@AlexaOrchid i think they do the opposite tbh, they make you expect a reward for every click you do, if you then have to do a job that at best rewards you at the end of the day, you very quickly become resentful of it.
Interesting video. It's nice to see a new game-design-ey video. But there are a few points here that I question the validity of. First off, clicker-ey games are _far_ from the only games without a definite "lose" conditions. It's hard to make a definitive list without some definitions (for instance, Dark Souls lets you progress with little setback after you die), but they do exist. Most LucasArts adventure games, for instance, have nothing that could be called a fail-state. This point of where clickers aren't particularly unique (or, arguably, special) relates to my next point. You say that clicker games aren't really video games. This is an argument I've heard brought up for many other types of game that don't fit our traditional perceptions of games-visual novels, walking simulators, Passage, etc. The same arguments I'd bring up for those debates apply here, the arguments where I'd question what purpose splitting games into "video games" and "non-game experiences" has, but that debate's been done elsewhere. Finally, I'd like to question the idea that simple progression-based enjoyment, a glorified Skinner box, is all that a clicker game can provide. For a while, I played Crush Crush, and enjoyed it because of its offbeat sense of humor and wacky characters. I kept playing it, enjoying every new girl and new line of dialogue that I got...but then I got bored. Crush Crush, like many other clicker games, has a mechanic where you can reset some stuff to progress faster; Crush Crush has this as a requirement for the later girls, both in the sense that they require such large amounts of resources that you need to speedier progression to get anywhere and that a couple literally require a certain level of reset bonus to progress. My numbers were going up, but since I wasn't seeing any new characters or dialogue or anything, I lose interest. A clicker game can be more than just raising your numbers...but the developers need to recognize this ahead of time and design with it in mind.
Timothy McLean I can't believe a RUclips comment that has actual valid well though and said criticism while still being respectful to the creator what sorcery is this
You raise very good points. Indeed a couple of this that are described as being "unique" to idle games are not unique at all. Idle games just puts old concepts into a whole new context; that, to me, is what defines a well designed idle game. Also, I find that there *are* challenges in this kind of game. The most fundamental one is about finding the most efficient ways of making progress, cracking down the game's formulas to make the most out of them. Idle games reward players that understand its mechanics, just like any other game. If you just leave it running in the background without giving it much care, progress will be slow. If you make an effort to learn how it works, you'll see your progress improve considerably.
RainyTurtleFrog I just can't believe that a RUclips comment is formatted in the essay structure that I was taught in primary school. I never thought I'd see it again....
as a perfectionist who'd rather die than having failed at something, I love both idle games and games that you can't do anything wrong in such as the sims. I never realised why I love both so much till this video.
I think the specific type of Clicker/Builder game I like is one where the focus is on building something. Like in Egg Inc you go from a simple chicken farm to producing absurd eggs that seem to be capable of bending space time and advancing technology. Tap Tap Aquarium is my favourite. You're building up points to be able to collect more fish and to decorate your personal virtual ocean with fish, plants, and items that are to your liking. There's no real rush with the aquarium and there's always seasonal events to collect charming, themed fish and ways to get fish you've missed from previous events. It also encourages you to take photos and can be used with VR to let you swim amongst the seascape you've created while listening to peaceful music and ocean noises. I've played it off and on over the last several years as a great way to decompress after stressful days or to relax when I need to get ready to head to bed. I highly recommend it!
In case anyone hasnt played it yet, i want to bring to attention ''Realm Grinder''. Ive been playing for about 5ish years now and im still a huge fan. Its one of the most in depth and unique idle game experiences ive ever had. It starts a bit slower than most idle games but once it starts going, its significantly more interesting than most other idle games simply because it introduces one of the things Soup here said idle games dont typically have, "analytical strategy". I dont want to give too much away about it, but there is sooooo much strategy involved in this game that you could try and test different builds for months and never try everything. By far my favorite idle game and one i think many other idle game lovers would enjoy as well.
Idle games are a haven for people who don't want to spend too much attention on games or people who likes multi-tasking. I do play Storm Wars and Idle Poring in Android.
I've liked a few of these games before (Cookie Clicker, Trimps, Spaceplan, and a few more) but can't seem to ever get into them anymore. It feels like the iOS market is far too saturated with incremental games. Too many of them are basically the same thing with a different skin (usually either like Cookie Clicker or Clicker Heroes) and the ones who do try something else usually feel underwhelming. I know that "complex" and "incremental" are often seen as incompatible, but I wish there were more games that incorporated at least some challenge, perhaps one of planning ahead. Also interesting to note that Spaceplan is an incremental clicker game with a defined victory condition, and it still works better than the majority of clickers due to its design, story, and aesthetics. An incremental game doesn't need to be endless as you said. Endless gameplay is a blessing and a curse for incremental games, as it often allows for longer gameplay at the cost of overstaying its welcome and forgoing some story elements. The topic of incremental games also reminds me of the many "base building" and farming games on mobile. Games like Dragonvale, Clash of Clans, Zombie Farm, Tiny Tower, and so on, games that aren't exactly "clickers" but are certainly incremental games. I know a few of the popular ones are still around, but for the most part the genre has faded from popularity, which is kind of sad for me, since I usually like the games despite their Skinner Boxieness. I think that clickers could learn a thing or two from this type of game as well, particularly how some of the most successful ones usually incorporate some additional core gameplay into the incremental nature of the game. Dragonvale has breeding and the time management that comes with that, Clash of Clans and Zombie Farm have battling mechanics that build off the incremental sections, Tiny Tower has the management challenge of putting people in the perfect job, and so on. Older Nimblebit games did this great in my opinion, and I especially loved how Disco Zoo made you collect animals and increase production through a neat puzzle game. These additional core gameplays build off of the incremental game to make the game as a whole more unique and fun, which I wish more clickers would do. Games like Trimps, CivCrafter, Candy Box, and A Dark Room do this, but usually games just have clicking as the primary gameplay, which is sometimes nice, but gets boring when it feels like every game is just about clicking the button and clicking upgrade. Whelp, sorry for rambling. Congratulations on making it to the end. :P
2 years ago I spent a good couple of months maintaining my Clicker Heroes save, I collected around 500 ancient souls before my trip to Japan, which was my chance for rehab. Those games are a hell of a drug.
4:04 if the line for flow on the game enjoyment chart is y=x, 0, 0 falls on that line, that point representing the idea of zero skill, zero challenge. Therefore the chart not only accounts for this scenario but gives reasonable explanation as to why people enjoy those games so much. Simply put, they fall within a comfortable parameter for abilities to challenge, without making one necessarily bored or anxious.
Good analogy.I only find them appealing for short periods,I have other genres like the ARPG and TBS that I find far more appealing.I think I would feel regret of time wasted if I spent too much time on them.
you have to kill time to be able to play which is kind of similar to iphone games or mmo's normally you'd kill time by playing a game, you can play both kind of games though.
In my personal opinnion these are not supposed to give you a life changing experience, I used them just to kill time, let's say that I'm on the bus on my way to school, I will open the game click a few times, collect rewards and then close it.
I've Recently Tried out "Crab War" and it's one of the Best "Idle Games" I've ever Seen! You've got a "Rebirth" System and Skill Trees and can even EVOLVE Your Crabs when YOU Get to a Certain Level. It's all Quite Fascinating. :3
An interesting analysis of the incremental genre, but I have a few points of contention: I'm disappointed that the video continually treats idle games and clickers as the same thing. Both are incremental games to be sure, but a clicker rewards interaction while an idle game rewards simply having the game open and running. There are overlaps, and a good clicker will usually have idle elements, but the distinction is important in analyzing games like this, I feel. Also, saying 'games by definition have failure states and challenge' omits incrementals, visual novels, dating sims, so-called 'walking simulators,' and a breadth of other divergences from the traditional model that should still fall under the definition of 'video game.' It might be time to let the definition of that word change, as language does, and specifically delineate challenge-focused and non-challenge-focused games. And as below, Candy Box, Frog Fractions, A Dark Room, and others are different than something like AdVenture Capitalist or Clicker Heroes in the level of change the core gameplay goes through, the 'unfolding game' as Extra Credits dubbed it. The changes in those games far outpace the new functionality to be explored in something like Cookie Clicker, where the thematics change, but all the systems involved are nearly identical from start to 'finish.' All that being said, it was a great video with some interesting points. I enjoyed it. I've recently come across your channel, and I'm impressed by the quality and thorough approach in each video, which is why I'm taking the time to bring these things to light. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm pointlessly raving, I genuinely want to see your videos improve even further. Thanks for all the work. :)
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who got bugged by the focus on clicking. I am a big idle fan but really don't enjoy the "clickers." Seeing new mechanics and making decisions about what to do is the fun part for me, not clicking a thing.
My current Cookie Clicker run is 4 days short of a 1000 days. I open it up everyday while I'm working, and only click several times per day, but I work towards new goals every week or even month. It is just something that is always on the background. Completely idle progress.
Can you please name (maybe even link) all mentioned games in the description? PS: By far the best idle game I have ever played is Universal Paperclips. Candybox and adarkroom a classics that are nice too and not too long to play through.
You wanna see something really interesting? Check out Progress Quest. Its not popular, but it has a dedicated fan base. To the point where there are whole forums where people go to ask each other for help that are still active. That may not seem odd. It will once you play the game.
I honestly don't see why people like progression if it doesn't mean anything. Like why does this exist? Why would people play this? Am I weird for not liking them?
I remember when i played AdCap for a LONG time, i was getting into duotrigintillions of dollars and by that points getting a good return on a angel reset took only a few minutes, and i stopped, realizing that it would probably just keep getting shorter and shorter until buying a single lemonade stand gives me 100x my current angels or something like that
Great video. Would love to see a revision once you play Spaceplan. Takes CC eldritch Christmas one step further with a small, satisfying, very funny narrative.
There's one clicker game that is actually quite different from any other. Spaceplan has a story and an ending to it. While there is no real skill required, no lose/win states, it still has an ending. It's my favorite clicker game to date :P (well worth the money)
I've been cookie clicking for about two years... Recently picked it back up 114 days ago... I've done two ascentions, one at 100 days, when I hit 1000 heavenly chips... then in 12 days I hit 10,000 heavenly chips. It's crazy to optimize everything, get power ups, and such. It's satisfying knowing that I always have cookie clicker in the background. No matter what I'm doing, no matter how lazy the day or how unprogressive the day was... I have more cookies than when the day started. And that's that good shit.
I played Zombie village for years, it was also pretty compelling and it only one of many idle games I have played. However, now I am playing none of them, cause I either lost data or stopped playing for some time and didn´t have enough hype to start again. God, I would love to feel that hype from Zombie village again. Well, at least I have Undertale a One Piece. That will never leave me.
I think I like idle games because it's fun to watch something grow and reap rewards after a while, you click for an hour and then come back in a day or two, buy upgrades, click for another hour, repeat. And if you get bored and don't play for a few weeks when you finally come back you'll be super rich lol
For the worldwide tribe of dedicated followers of the latest gaming Apps for mobile phones and tablets (particularly of the ‘idling’ gaming genre: Tap Titans; Clicker Racing; Human Evolution etc.), time can sometimes prove a frustrating concept. The number of hours it takes to penetrate the minds of characters and piece together the story line to hit the biggest and best unlocks or rewards can be infinite. I for one would love to have ‘Hamlette Painter of Skulls’ (Tap Titans) fighting along side me against ‘Dark Lord Punisher of All’ whilst I complete my commute on the Jubilee Line to and from work. The trouble is, with idlers a lot of the leg work (tapping) necessary to reach the unlock to these guys can quite often be a trifle mundane. Think about the amount of work, the skilled artistry and talent that goes into producing such sophisticated, technicolour gaming masterpieces as 'Tap Titans', 'Tap Titans 2' (Game Hive Corporation), and 'Clicker Racing' (Lion Studios). Only a handful of titles deserve a mention in that category, but of those that do, (and indeed many of those that don’t), only a minority of fanatics - mostly playing on PC/hack - get to see the what happens in the end. The truth is, it the ratio of time invested to progress made simply does not add up, without even considering the cost. And this is a shame. It's a shame if because, as a result, the vast majority of fans miss out on some of the best work in the Game/App. Of course, it's possible, to buy your way in - to pay money (an ‘In App Purchase’) in order to obtain upgrades, characters, and generally speed up the progress. I’ve done it myself. There are also other options, but many of these involve questionable, not to mention, potentially threatening software downloads, which involve complicated setting up processes. Luckily, there is now a simple answer: an electronic clicker known to a growing following as pegg (www.peggelectronics.com). “Pegg is ultimately a mobile phone accessory. It aims to be a cool electronic gadget, to look fabulous, and to be there to help out with the mundane gaming duties (tapping), ‘as and when’ 🙂” - (Pegg Electronics). Even with casual, moderate use, pegg will allow significantly improved progress to unlocks on your favourite games, and help you through - or at least nearer to - the end. Call me an 'idle idler' and yes, maybe I am but I’d certainly like the rewards without as much of the effort, but perhaps moreover - to witness all of the results of the quality work, and pay homage to the enormous effort thats gone into producing these fantastic games. Robot anyone!!??
While I’m here, I’m going to drop a plug for my favorite idle game Realm Grinder. Undoubtedly the most fun I’ve had with an idle game, definitely more than Cookie Clicker or Clicker Heroes
I'm usually not to big into idle games because progress does eventually bottleneck at some point. But an idle game ive gotten into recently is Crush Crush. (Think Huniepop where buying gifts, talking,and going on dates gets you close r to getting into a girl's pants) and while yes the typical "OwO big anime booba" is a factor in my enjoyment, what separates it from other idle games is that each girl has an endgoal. It's not like cookie clicker where numbers just infinitely go up, there is a sense of actual accomplishment as well as progression. Not to mention I'm a sucker for playing games in the background while listening to Game Discussions, Movie Reviews, or ASMR, so it helps scratch that itch without becoming repetitive.
So it's all just a Skinner box machine, do a task repeatedly and you get a small reward, then increase the time between rewards until you're rapidly clicking 500 times or waiting hours to show up again, maybe even better introduce a new game entirely above the clicking and now that is dependent on the click economy. Skinner Box gets a bad name from Pay to Play type games that just rob people of money but as browser games or true F2P with minimal ads, these games can be interesting
Good video, but in my opinion you should have included a segment about the IRC idle games. I think those were the originators of the genre, and I have fond memories of them.
Actually clicker games are not "surprisingly" satisfying. They are designed on purpose to do exactly what You describe... they give out meaningless rewards just to give You the feeling of satisfaction so You come back. You dont play a clicker game to have engaging gameplay, You dont play a clicker game to have fun, the actual gameplay is in its core just a meaningless, annoying task You would NEVER do in a different setting, but You come back to get the next dopamine rush when You get a reward. In Short: Clicker games are Skinner boxes. They are an operant conditoning program with one task: to condition You to play it. You would NEVER press a button the whole day in any other circumstance. If someone would ask You to do it You would most likely say no. If Your job would be "press a button 3000 times a day" You would quit it or find it highly unsatisfying. But the skinner box is programmed in such a way that You keep coming back and do the inherently un-fun activity again and again for an increasingly rare and inherently meaningless reward. This are exactly the same methods we use to train animals. Make them do something they dont really want to do and give them rewards for it, then slowly but surely lower the rate of the rewards to keep them from acclimatizing to it and thus lowering the effect, to keep the dopamine levels up when the reward comes. There are some accidental Skinner boxes in games. Everyone had this point in a game where it stopped being fun but You kept plaing just to get the next level or next item or so... basically the whole basis behind grinding. But there are a lot of games that use Skinner box techniques on purpose to keep the player base up, basically making them addicted to the game. A lot of times making money out of it. Clicker games and the like are just that in its purest form. So pure actually, they work LITERALLY the same as a Skinner box. Not about the same, but EXACTLY. The Skinner box in his first form (made by Frederic Skinner to investigate animal conditioning) was a cage for the animal and... a button for the animal to press and a device that gives out rewards if the button is pressed enough times. Sound familiar? And as players of clicker games (in Skinners case rats and doves) they kept brainlessly pressing the button again and again and again for ever rarer rewards until, after a while, they kept pressing the button even without getting rewarded for it, hundreds and hundreds of times, just for the elusive tiny reward of some tiny morsel of food once in a while. Sound familiar? Humans think they are so smart but... the animals at least got food out of it. What do You get? Nothing. Different pictures on a screen. Yet You feel satisfied because Your animal brain tells You, You accomplished something. But in reality You accomplished nothing. On the contrary, You could have used the time to actually accomplish something... That is the same reason why people love playing with bubble wrap. A completely meaningless, stupid task, again pressing something, but the little "plop" sound when You do it gives satisfaction. So they do it again. And again, and again...
What makes the reward from an idle game any less than a reward from any other game? There is no point in finishing Mario, or getting a high score in tetris, or winning a game of League of Legends. They are all pointless, with the only value in achieving them is what value the person has attributed to them. You could say they require effort unlike idle games and beating them is overcoming a challenge.But idle is in the name, people aren't actively playing these games.It isn't like the example you listed with someone pressing a button 3000 times a day. In that example the person is spending the whole day rather than checking in throughout the day. And in idle games there are other aspects of the game that keep it interesting, it is rarely just 'click this and see numbers go up', there are usually several different ways to increase the number because most engaging idle games grow and change.
@@toowiggly It is less about the reward and more about the activity itself. Games are inherently pointless, yes, but they are usually inherently engaging and fun. That is the difference to a skinner box. A skinner box is inherently unfun and You get Your kicks our of inherently meaningless rewards, You slog through unfun activities to have fun later. A game is fun in itself, the value of a game comes from playing it. You dont play games that are not fun, no matter the reward, except they are designed as a skinner box. Slot machines for example are such a skinner box. The activity itself is unfun and can ruin Your life, but a lot of people play them religiously for the elusive reward once in a while. And in the whole process they dont see that they used up more resources getting the reward than the reward itself gives back. They play ONLY for the reward and use up more than they get from the reward. In some skinner box setups animals actually used up more calories to do the unfun activity than they got back from eating the reward, but they still did it. As a slot machine player puts in more coins than he gets out or a clicker player. They usually have monetization. You pay money to be able to do more of an unfun activity to reach that next, meaningless reward faster. And after weeks and weeks of playing You dont realize how much money You spent... pressing a button. That is the whole point of these games. To get You to exactly that point... the point where You are willing to pay real money to press a button a thousand times to see a pretty picture... even if You could watch the same pretty picture without paying and pressing a button a thousand times just by looking it up on the internet
Look at you, mashing buttons on your keyboard to make squigly lines on a screen. You get no food reward, you are dumber than an animal. When you oversimplify things, you can make anything sound silly.
Cookie clicker's end condition is having all achievements upgrades heavenly upgrades and having thr max amount of buildings (when the price reaches "infinity")
Clicker Heroes completely consumed me for a few weeks about a year ago now and probably would have ended up literally ruining my life had I not uninstalled Steam was a result of it. I hate that I love it.
For me clicking is not the end itself, but a mean to it's end. I want to finish my idle games quickly and if I can't I quit. And yes, I play these games for their twists and turns. There's usually alot of creativity and isider jokes hidden inside. And of course I do like - no, LOVE - to watch numbers go up.
for me, clicker games are fun, because I don't have so much time for games, and I still get progress even though i'm not playing it. I love progress, and I love gaming too.. when I have the time for it
I accidentally got into one of these games when it was heavily advertised as a puzzle game. It was some "Heros bla-bla". This is just some scam. I played for some time waiting for some kind of adventure/puzzle to appear. Then I eventually figured that it feels like monotonous job, I quitted and watched reviews of this shit to get confirmation that it is a scam. Now I know that these are so called "idle games", so I know what to avoid. This shit spoiled my weekend.
I just know I can't play idle games anymore, specially mobile ones... I became too addicted and started tapping while on traffic or in class... so I just don't even try them because I know I'll get hooked.... This video alone is a big trigger, I'm not even kidding.
My favorites would be NGU IDLE or IDLING TO RULE THE GODS. Both functionally the same, i find the later to be more interesting and also available on google play.
Most clickers have more efficient ways of upgrading that change over time to keep things interesting. I found Midas Gold Plus (on steam) to be the best.
Honestly, the only one of these I've really liked is the Candy Box series, and possibly also Anti-Idle. And even then I usually cheat if I feel like waiting would be too long without any merit.
Why I am so addicted to increasing numbers?? It is nothing special, but i am keep getting back to those games...Currently playing: War Clicks & Holyday City Reloaded
I enjoy most idle games. Ever played idle dice? It's still in... Beta? I think..? I've gotten pretty far in it's current version. About 1/4 of the way to "gilding" every crad. Check it out if you want to know what that's all about! My friend would really enjoy that. He's making the game!
What would you consider is the best Idle Game on mobile? I have been playing Endless Frontier and enjoying it, but looking to see if there is something better/
In theory nothing. the thing with a skinner box is that the reward for each arbitary section or edge (to use the graph theory term) is meanigless, the key point is that a skinner box is cyclic, whilst many of these games peter off into the infinitum, If you look at something such as wow's raids, people raid to get loot and want loot to raid with, it's a cycle, whereas taking cookie clicker, you click to get currency to various forms of auto-click which rapidly flies off into lala land.
again depends on how harsly you boil down the experience, the core loop is a skinner box, but, part of the loop affects an external rating, which is one of the focus points of the game, and the genre of game, I.E. there is an out, however much like MMORPGs people are constantly playing, which brings that vestige into the loop and actually you can boil down really far to being the quintessetial skinnerbox. (so yes, but like many games, it's not that simple)
Idle games exclusively use operant conditioning to keep you coming back. So they're the pure distilled skinner box games. They are just reward for rewards sake. All games use operant conditioning to a level, but how heavily the game relies upon it is usually how people decide if it's a "skinner box" game. It's more of a spectrum than anything with idle games on one side and limbo on the other.
Having an idea: Make an idle game with Excel since most idle games are just about numbers. Then, slacking off at work with an Excel window opened guarantees that you'll not get caught.
I disagree with your assertment that skill and challenge don't exist in idle games. Clicker heroes and cookie clicker BOTH heavily gate content. They do this so that players have a chance to increase their skill (usually their game knowledge and their decision making efficiency) before facing new challenges (ancients, ascension, new heroes or cookie producers, upgrades, skills, etc). They actually provide a very heavily controlled experience, but allow for skilled players to blaze past these barriers and unlock the full content. They are only an experience in the sense that all games are an experience if you don't care how well you are doing.
If you want an idle game with a degree of skill, universal paperclips is beatable in a day if you dedicate a good portion of your day to it, keeps unraveling new content, and has a decently definitive end state.
I think you missed a critical addicting point of these games. You click and then buy and upgrade and then click and buy another upgrade. It's the thought that your next upgrade will be one that will exponentially increase your numbers when in fact each upgrade just kinda sets you back to square one until you fall back down and need to buy another upgrade.
When you click. You change something. Isn't that great? It's like. You exist. You have power, even if you have power in this extremely limited way. When 'you' click. You think it's 'you'. You subconsciously think that you made this choice. Even though you're just seeking rewards and validation! You have no free will! But it doesn't matter! When you click, the world changes! This makes the complex biomechanical machine happy! Happy input = continue clicking (output!)
literally of all the idle games I've played cookie clicker and clicker heroes have been the most addicting me then, an unsuspecting naïve young person: hey this game you click and level up heroes me now, an old wise crone: ah yes my child come into the light XD
![Chino Pacas - Modo Capone (with Drake & Fuerza Regida) [Video Oficial]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zjv8TQ0gBkg/mqdefault.jpg)
"JUST TRY IT. COME ON, IT'S GREAT"
I feel like my mother warned me about this sort of situation...
"All the cool kids do it"
How about crack?
My mom told me to stop collecting crack by touching the left mouse button
Same here. She used to warn me a lot about my uncle telling me to "try it"
At 666 can't like it now must leave it at 666!
conclusion: people like watching numbers go up
5.025729462347784809234e875956723
yes this is a number
The story of investors
I mean some games have amazing storys that unfold during the game
There's an excellent game called NGU idle. Which literally stands for "Numbers go up"
@@hdckighfkvhvgmk Of course it's a number. Numbers are infinite! I could just randomly type, let's say... 6.910741765716578236572156291e84923748. And that's a number.
My favorite idle games are the ones that grow seemingly infinitely more complex as they go or even become completely different games. A Dark Room, Kittens Game, Candy Box. Cookie clicker doesn't really hold my attention - what I find enjoyable about these types of games is less the numbers going up and more the surprise of finding out what new mechanic or element or complete change of gameplay is coming next.
Cookie Clicker has changed so much in just a few years. They have an ascension tree, a farming mini-game, and a practically infinite amount of achievements.
And, in Cookie clicker it does indeed turn into a completely new game, as soon as the Grandmapocalypse comes along.
You're gonna love Crank then. it's my number one favorite idle game at the moment.
Sandcastle Builder was my introduction to a clicker that eventually becomes ridiculously complex. Though it's been so long, maybe now that I have more experience I'll find it's not as complex as I thought...
Oh, guys please stop recommending idle games, it's basically mandatory for me to try them out and I don't like obligations.
Oh, God. That game Number by Tyler Glaiel is brilliant. It really strips everything away and gets right at that core mechanic.
I saw a cookie in the thumbnail, so I clicked.
Nice
"Universal Paperclips" is by far the best clicker game I've ever played. Would recommend.
I came here looking for this comment. The point of the game meshes so beautifully with the mechanics. It is truly the apotheosis of incremental games.
The best and only clicker game I have played!
gimlic I hacked it
@@tarimali4466
Keep the tab in a new window and don't minimize it. Just keep other windows on top of it and it will continue without a problem.
RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES. RELEASE THE HYPNO DRONES.
One of the "fun" aspects of clickers to me is the feeling that I'm making an efficient choice. There sort of is a win/fail state for me, or at least a win/not win state. I win when I grasp ways to be more efficient. It feels good calculating that buying this upgrade would be better in the long run over this other upgrade.
YES. Should I buy 10 of these upgrades or 5 of these? Or should I wait and possible get one upgrade to increase my profits even further?
You put it perfectly, friend.
That's what it makes you feel. It feels good to find solutions or better efficiencies, but it is for nothing as there is no loss state or direct competition with anyone.
I've never been one for clickers, but I do remember this one time I had cookie clicker open for about 4 days straight by accident. Came back, and....well, I got the prism much earlier than I thought I would have.
I'm bored, so here's a list of (most) of the idle/clicker games shown in this video.
0:45 - Cookie Clicker orteil.dashnet.org/cookieclicker/
0:52 - Clicker Heroes www.clickerheroes.com/ (also on Steam)
1:03 - Filll the Oceans www.filltheoceans.com/
1:37 - Trimps trimps.github.io/
4:06 - Megami Quest shimage.net/megamiquest/en.html
4:19 - AdVenture Capitalist bit.ly/2zTKVe1 (Kongregate, also on Steam)
5:15 - Derivative Clicker gzgreg.github.io/DerivativeClicker/ (a personal fav)
6:58 - Number www.glaielgames.com/number/
While I understand the main point of this video was likely to look at these Skinner Box kind of games and analyze them, I can't help but notice you failed to mention one of the grandfathers of this genre, Candy Box. If I recall right, the man behind Cookie Clicker has admitted to Candy Box being a huge inspiration for Cookie Clicker. However, anybody's who's beaten Candy Box or its sequel, Candy Box 2, will recognize that first starters, the game has a proper victory and second, has a failure state. Candy Box and the second are both so short you can not only beat them in a day but beat both of them in the same day. The first game has a short post-game that is part waiting, yes, but you can circumvent a large portion of it by playing yourself and figuring out how to game the system.
However, they both rely on having you straight up wait at the start of the game before anything interesting happens. Progress into Candy Box can even be delayed indefinitely by mistake if you keep throwing your candies on the ground instead of waiting 60 seconds to unlock the Candy Merchant. Unless you know a trick to get candies fast from him, you then have to wait until you've built up even more candies to buy a sword. Once you've done that the entire rest of the game starts to open up. The second one is a bit better about this by giving you new stuff to get every few seconds until you open up the world. Idling is definitely a core mechanic in the Candy Box games but there is an end-goal. The failure state is pretty minimal, but being forced to wait before you can go trekking again means that failure doesn't lack consequence entirely. In the case of the first one, there's even several resources that can only be used in dungeon crawling and if you fail you do not get them back. Admittedly though, it does tend to turn them into items that are too good to be used. The Failure state and punishment from it isn't much but CB and CB2 both have failure states in addition to having genuine victory states.
A Dark Room is another one of these where the mechanics unfold slowly, but it turns into an adventure where you're navigating a post-apocalypse via an ASCII map, while fighting off anybody that might get in your way. I forget if it features a time elapsed, thus encouraging speedrunning, but I do recall it features score of some kind, which allows you to aim for better runs nonetheless. This too features an end-game victory state.
There's also Anti-Idle if you want to see an Idle game with a heavy focus on Anti-Idling being a huge core mechanic of the game. It features Fishing, Racing, a Card Game, a Stock Market, a massive RPG with its own set of levels and gear separate to the stuff used elsewhere, a Pet you can raise, and many other things I'm forgetting. It too uses a reset system with perks and such gained from doing so, but it also just in general features an RPG that I tended to ignore. I do not know if said RPG has a proper end state, but I do know there comes a point when you've explored everything contained there-in, even if you can't technically "finish" it. It even has its own set of reset perks attached to it. I dunno if it's in the same boat as Candy Box or A Dark Room but it definitely is one of the single most involved "Idle" games in the genre.
I find it ironic that Cookie Clicker, the game that likely caused the rise in popularity of this genre, was fathered by Candy Box, which has a proper end-goal and in spite of using idling as a core mechanic, is so vastly different from the rest of the genre that it sticks out as kind of its own thing. Anti-Idle is, to my understanding, somewhere around half-way between normal Idlers and games like A Dark Room or the Candy Boxes.
you gain a dopamine reward for doing something with very little input. psychological gratification with very little effort is like the perfect recipe for non-chemical addiction.
Its sad that a lot of people in these comment section dont really remember where games came from. Everyone takes games as this amazing big thing when in really games are nothing more than entertainment. Do they have the power to be something more? Absolutly yes. Do they need to be always mind blowing or meaninful? No. One of my favourite games as a kid was to spot the different, on those journals that always had the sudoku for you to do. Its a simple concept but its fun nontheless and really taking a look to it, its nothing major, it doesnt offer many gameplay depth or anything like that but hey, its entertaining, its fun, its a way to past your time, you dont need to be efficient 100% of the time to be doing something productive, sometimes just wasting your time with these little spot the different, or the letters soups where you had to find specific words, yes they werent hard and no matter what you would always end up solving them because they are super easy but you still felt rewarded after completing them, hell you are probably not even going to remember them after that day since they didnt have that much impact, but thats the thing, not everything has to be a high induced emotional drug in our day and well, idle games, being simple or not are exactly that, a laid back kinda of game that rewards you regardless of the pace of your progress but its just something to relax, and obviously, i dont want to get into the vast resons why people actually play idle games. So lets stop being so entitled to the point of saying these are not games when they clearly are, and lets let people enjoy what they enjoy.
i would play a sudoku book any day instead of playing a mind numbing clicker game
I enjoy games that challenge your brain. I like sudoku (even though I don't play much) and word searches and You Don't Know Jack and the Ace Attorney series. They challenge your brain and get you to think in a different perspective. With the sudoku games, you have to look at the whole picture, then the smaller pictures, then the even smaller pictures, then repeat that until you solve. It makes you look at everything, then break it down, then put it back together. Word searches just challenge your eyes and make you examine things carefully. You Don't Know Jack challenges your knowledge on the real world and math and history and stuff. Ace Attorney combines the ideas of sudoku and word searches together and makes a fun and compelling game out of it.
@@exist_much5625 that is boring as heck
People, especially "gamers", don't realise this, but the same design principles implemented in "clicker games" and farmville-like waiting/idle games (and even casino style games) are in the core of the design of your favourite online (and even single player) shooter game.
All your battlefields, Call of Duties, Overwatches, etc. are a series of micro or meta clicker games + idle games which are intertwined with a shooter element. Yes there may be running around, temporary fail states and so on but everything surrounding that such as unlocking weapons and cosmetics, lootboxes, levelling up, are in essence clicker/idle/mobile/casino games.
Another thing almost no one knows is that although clicker/idle game have now become a genre itself the very first games created like this were in fact satires of other videogames where the creators distilled the core mechanics that makes people become addicted to Mobile and modern "triple A" games eliminating all the "unnecessary" gameplay. (e.g. www.gdcvault.com/play/1013828/Making-a-Mockery-Ruminations-on)
Actually you could say that for many people that don't like to for instance to fantasise about space soldiers and unlocking weapons, weapon attachments, weapon skins, etc. clicker / idle games can be in fact legitimately MORE FUN than the now average third person shooter, online shooter or "ubigame"
You do know most shooter games take some amount of skill, right? Getting cosmetics isn't the only reason people play games you know lol, they're just rewards that look nice.
@@hoodiewith2os560 But people complain and will stop plying if there are no reward s to work towards. The majority of people at least.
you seem very positive about a phenomenom that is basically cocaine without pleasure or a real sense of achievement that won't teach you anything while killing your time
These games seem like a great job application test for some monotonous work that drives normal people insane.
@@AlexaOrchid i think they do the opposite tbh, they make you expect a reward for every click you do, if you then have to do a job that at best rewards you at the end of the day, you very quickly become resentful of it.
Interesting video. It's nice to see a new game-design-ey video. But there are a few points here that I question the validity of.
First off, clicker-ey games are _far_ from the only games without a definite "lose" conditions. It's hard to make a definitive list without some definitions (for instance, Dark Souls lets you progress with little setback after you die), but they do exist. Most LucasArts adventure games, for instance, have nothing that could be called a fail-state. This point of where clickers aren't particularly unique (or, arguably, special) relates to my next point.
You say that clicker games aren't really video games. This is an argument I've heard brought up for many other types of game that don't fit our traditional perceptions of games-visual novels, walking simulators, Passage, etc. The same arguments I'd bring up for those debates apply here, the arguments where I'd question what purpose splitting games into "video games" and "non-game experiences" has, but that debate's been done elsewhere.
Finally, I'd like to question the idea that simple progression-based enjoyment, a glorified Skinner box, is all that a clicker game can provide. For a while, I played Crush Crush, and enjoyed it because of its offbeat sense of humor and wacky characters. I kept playing it, enjoying every new girl and new line of dialogue that I got...but then I got bored. Crush Crush, like many other clicker games, has a mechanic where you can reset some stuff to progress faster; Crush Crush has this as a requirement for the later girls, both in the sense that they require such large amounts of resources that you need to speedier progression to get anywhere and that a couple literally require a certain level of reset bonus to progress. My numbers were going up, but since I wasn't seeing any new characters or dialogue or anything, I lose interest. A clicker game can be more than just raising your numbers...but the developers need to recognize this ahead of time and design with it in mind.
Timothy McLean I can't believe a RUclips comment that has actual valid well though and said criticism while still being respectful to the creator what sorcery is this
You raise very good points. Indeed a couple of this that are described as being "unique" to idle games are not unique at all. Idle games just puts old concepts into a whole new context; that, to me, is what defines a well designed idle game.
Also, I find that there *are* challenges in this kind of game. The most fundamental one is about finding the most efficient ways of making progress, cracking down the game's formulas to make the most out of them. Idle games reward players that understand its mechanics, just like any other game. If you just leave it running in the background without giving it much care, progress will be slow. If you make an effort to learn how it works, you'll see your progress improve considerably.
RainyTurtleFrog I just can't believe that a RUclips comment is formatted in the essay structure that I was taught in primary school. I never thought I'd see it again....
It’s the first comment that someone really searched up things to write it and has been a long time to do it
as a perfectionist who'd rather die than having failed at something, I love both idle games and games that you can't do anything wrong in such as the sims. I never realised why I love both so much till this video.
I think the specific type of Clicker/Builder game I like is one where the focus is on building something. Like in Egg Inc you go from a simple chicken farm to producing absurd eggs that seem to be capable of bending space time and advancing technology. Tap Tap Aquarium is my favourite. You're building up points to be able to collect more fish and to decorate your personal virtual ocean with fish, plants, and items that are to your liking. There's no real rush with the aquarium and there's always seasonal events to collect charming, themed fish and ways to get fish you've missed from previous events. It also encourages you to take photos and can be used with VR to let you swim amongst the seascape you've created while listening to peaceful music and ocean noises. I've played it off and on over the last several years as a great way to decompress after stressful days or to relax when I need to get ready to head to bed. I highly recommend it!
In case anyone hasnt played it yet, i want to bring to attention ''Realm Grinder''. Ive been playing for about 5ish years now and im still a huge fan. Its one of the most in depth and unique idle game experiences ive ever had. It starts a bit slower than most idle games but once it starts going, its significantly more interesting than most other idle games simply because it introduces one of the things Soup here said idle games dont typically have, "analytical strategy". I dont want to give too much away about it, but there is sooooo much strategy involved in this game that you could try and test different builds for months and never try everything. By far my favorite idle game and one i think many other idle game lovers would enjoy as well.
Idle games are a haven for people who don't want to spend too much attention on games or people who likes multi-tasking. I do play Storm Wars and Idle Poring in Android.
SPACEPLAN is a neat demonstration of an idle game with unfolding mechanics and a story
Cave Story Soundtrack, nice
Great video! I always feel so conflicted about clickers. They are such time sinks, but they can be so much fun
I see them as endurance tests and a nice challenge.
Best part:
No micro transactions.
I've liked a few of these games before (Cookie Clicker, Trimps, Spaceplan, and a few more) but can't seem to ever get into them anymore. It feels like the iOS market is far too saturated with incremental games. Too many of them are basically the same thing with a different skin (usually either like Cookie Clicker or Clicker Heroes) and the ones who do try something else usually feel underwhelming. I know that "complex" and "incremental" are often seen as incompatible, but I wish there were more games that incorporated at least some challenge, perhaps one of planning ahead.
Also interesting to note that Spaceplan is an incremental clicker game with a defined victory condition, and it still works better than the majority of clickers due to its design, story, and aesthetics. An incremental game doesn't need to be endless as you said. Endless gameplay is a blessing and a curse for incremental games, as it often allows for longer gameplay at the cost of overstaying its welcome and forgoing some story elements.
The topic of incremental games also reminds me of the many "base building" and farming games on mobile. Games like Dragonvale, Clash of Clans, Zombie Farm, Tiny Tower, and so on, games that aren't exactly "clickers" but are certainly incremental games. I know a few of the popular ones are still around, but for the most part the genre has faded from popularity, which is kind of sad for me, since I usually like the games despite their Skinner Boxieness.
I think that clickers could learn a thing or two from this type of game as well, particularly how some of the most successful ones usually incorporate some additional core gameplay into the incremental nature of the game. Dragonvale has breeding and the time management that comes with that, Clash of Clans and Zombie Farm have battling mechanics that build off the incremental sections, Tiny Tower has the management challenge of putting people in the perfect job, and so on. Older Nimblebit games did this great in my opinion, and I especially loved how Disco Zoo made you collect animals and increase production through a neat puzzle game. These additional core gameplays build off of the incremental game to make the game as a whole more unique and fun, which I wish more clickers would do. Games like Trimps, CivCrafter, Candy Box, and A Dark Room do this, but usually games just have clicking as the primary gameplay, which is sometimes nice, but gets boring when it feels like every game is just about clicking the button and clicking upgrade.
Whelp, sorry for rambling. Congratulations on making it to the end. :P
You should try idling to rule the gods. It has more challenge, complexity, and story than most idle games I've played.
Wait till you try Realm Grinder. That one's really good.
FactoryIdle is like the most complex idle game I've played, also try A Dark Room for a different kind of idle game with a definite end
"Almost a hero "truly is inique, you should try it in my opinion. Still shocks me with new mechanics after 3weeks!
2 years ago I spent a good couple of months maintaining my Clicker Heroes save, I collected around 500 ancient souls before my trip to Japan, which was my chance for rehab. Those games are a hell of a drug.
4:04 if the line for flow on the game enjoyment chart is y=x, 0, 0 falls on that line, that point representing the idea of zero skill, zero challenge. Therefore the chart not only accounts for this scenario but gives reasonable explanation as to why people enjoy those games so much. Simply put, they fall within a comfortable parameter for abilities to challenge, without making one necessarily bored or anxious.
Clicker games are the fidget toys of video games.I guess I can understand why people like them, but for me they're no fun.
Good analogy.I only find them appealing for short periods,I have other genres like the ARPG and TBS that I find far more appealing.I think I would feel regret of time wasted if I spent too much time on them.
you have to kill time to be able to play which is kind of similar to iphone games or mmo's
normally you'd kill time by playing a game, you can play both kind of games though.
just playing a clicker game is boring but they are fun in the background where you can drop in every 5-10 mins to buy or upgrade something.
In my personal opinnion these are not supposed to give you a life changing experience, I used them just to kill time, let's say that I'm on the bus on my way to school, I will open the game click a few times, collect rewards and then close it.
@@gonnediss1775 ive reached 408 decillion a sec what about you?
I've Recently Tried out "Crab War" and it's one of the Best "Idle Games" I've ever Seen! You've got a "Rebirth" System and Skill Trees and can even EVOLVE Your Crabs when YOU Get to a Certain Level. It's all Quite Fascinating. :3
An interesting analysis of the incremental genre, but I have a few points of contention:
I'm disappointed that the video continually treats idle games and clickers as the same thing. Both are incremental games to be sure, but a clicker rewards interaction while an idle game rewards simply having the game open and running. There are overlaps, and a good clicker will usually have idle elements, but the distinction is important in analyzing games like this, I feel.
Also, saying 'games by definition have failure states and challenge' omits incrementals, visual novels, dating sims, so-called 'walking simulators,' and a breadth of other divergences from the traditional model that should still fall under the definition of 'video game.' It might be time to let the definition of that word change, as language does, and specifically delineate challenge-focused and non-challenge-focused games.
And as below, Candy Box, Frog Fractions, A Dark Room, and others are different than something like AdVenture Capitalist or Clicker Heroes in the level of change the core gameplay goes through, the 'unfolding game' as Extra Credits dubbed it. The changes in those games far outpace the new functionality to be explored in something like Cookie Clicker, where the thematics change, but all the systems involved are nearly identical from start to 'finish.'
All that being said, it was a great video with some interesting points. I enjoyed it. I've recently come across your channel, and I'm impressed by the quality and thorough approach in each video, which is why I'm taking the time to bring these things to light. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm pointlessly raving, I genuinely want to see your videos improve even further.
Thanks for all the work. :)
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who got bugged by the focus on clicking. I am a big idle fan but really don't enjoy the "clickers." Seeing new mechanics and making decisions about what to do is the fun part for me, not clicking a thing.
My current Cookie Clicker run is 4 days short of a 1000 days. I open it up everyday while I'm working, and only click several times per day, but I work towards new goals every week or even month. It is just something that is always on the background. Completely idle progress.
You had my attention until deceased crab. Then you made me feel nostalgic and I went over to watch some of his stuff.
Can you please name (maybe even link) all mentioned games in the description?
PS: By far the best idle game I have ever played is Universal Paperclips. Candybox and adarkroom a classics that are nice too and not too long to play through.
The beautiful thing about Universal Paperclips is how the core gameplay loop fits the theme of the game so perfectly!
You wanna see something really interesting? Check out Progress Quest. Its not popular, but it has a dedicated fan base. To the point where there are whole forums where people go to ask each other for help that are still active.
That may not seem odd. It will once you play the game.
yeah, just started playing because of your comment, i'm defo confused and loving it and confused, and i'm confused by the need for help
and now i need help
progress quest is hype
CAVE STORY MUSIC AT THE BEGINNING!
I honestly don't see why people like progression if it doesn't mean anything. Like why does this exist? Why would people play this? Am I weird for not liking them?
No, you are not. This is infuriating shit of "idle" game developers.
I remember when i played AdCap for a LONG time, i was getting into duotrigintillions of dollars and by that points getting a good return on a angel reset took only a few minutes, and i stopped, realizing that it would probably just keep getting shorter and shorter until buying a single lemonade stand gives me 100x my current angels or something like that
These games are literally the definition of a time waster.
Great video. Would love to see a revision once you play Spaceplan. Takes CC eldritch Christmas one step further with a small, satisfying, very funny narrative.
There's one clicker game that is actually quite different from any other. Spaceplan has a story and an ending to it. While there is no real skill required, no lose/win states, it still has an ending. It's my favorite clicker game to date :P (well worth the money)
I've been cookie clicking for about two years...
Recently picked it back up 114 days ago... I've done two ascentions, one at 100 days, when I hit 1000 heavenly chips... then in 12 days I hit 10,000 heavenly chips. It's crazy to optimize everything, get power ups, and such. It's satisfying knowing that I always have cookie clicker in the background. No matter what I'm doing, no matter how lazy the day or how unprogressive the day was... I have more cookies than when the day started. And that's that good shit.
I played Zombie village for years, it was also pretty compelling and it only one of many idle games I have played. However, now I am playing none of them, cause I either lost data or stopped playing for some time and didn´t have enough hype to start again. God, I would love to feel that hype from Zombie village again. Well, at least I have Undertale a One Piece. That will never leave me.
I think I like idle games because it's fun to watch something grow and reap rewards after a while, you click for an hour and then come back in a day or two, buy upgrades, click for another hour, repeat. And if you get bored and don't play for a few weeks when you finally come back you'll be super rich lol
For the worldwide tribe of
dedicated followers of the latest gaming Apps for mobile phones and tablets (particularly of the ‘idling’ gaming genre: Tap Titans; Clicker Racing; Human Evolution etc.), time can sometimes prove a frustrating concept. The number of hours it takes to penetrate the minds of characters and piece together the story line to hit the biggest and best unlocks or rewards can be infinite.
I for one would love to have ‘Hamlette Painter of Skulls’ (Tap Titans) fighting along side me against ‘Dark Lord Punisher of All’ whilst I complete my commute on the Jubilee Line to and from work.
The trouble is, with idlers a lot of the leg work (tapping) necessary to reach the unlock to these guys can quite often be a trifle mundane. Think about the amount of work, the skilled artistry and talent that goes into producing such sophisticated, technicolour gaming masterpieces as 'Tap Titans', 'Tap Titans 2' (Game Hive Corporation), and 'Clicker Racing' (Lion Studios). Only a handful of titles deserve a mention in that category, but of those that do, (and indeed many of those that don’t), only a minority of fanatics - mostly playing on PC/hack - get to see the what happens in the end. The truth is, it the ratio of time invested to progress made simply does not add up, without even considering the cost. And this is a shame. It's a shame if because, as a result, the vast majority of fans miss out on some of the best work in the Game/App.
Of course, it's possible, to buy your way in - to pay money (an ‘In App Purchase’) in order to obtain upgrades, characters, and generally speed up the progress. I’ve done it myself. There are also other options, but many of these involve questionable, not to mention, potentially threatening software downloads, which involve complicated setting up processes.
Luckily, there is now a simple answer: an electronic clicker known to a growing following as pegg (www.peggelectronics.com).
“Pegg is ultimately a mobile phone accessory. It aims to be a cool electronic gadget, to look fabulous, and to be there to help out with the mundane gaming duties (tapping), ‘as and when’ 🙂” - (Pegg Electronics).
Even with casual, moderate use, pegg will allow significantly improved progress to unlocks on your favourite games, and help you through - or at least nearer to - the end.
Call me an 'idle idler' and yes, maybe I am but I’d certainly like the rewards without as much of the effort, but perhaps moreover - to witness all of the results of the quality work, and pay homage to the enormous effort thats gone into producing these fantastic games. Robot anyone!!??
While I’m here, I’m going to drop a plug for my favorite idle game Realm Grinder. Undoubtedly the most fun I’ve had with an idle game, definitely more than Cookie Clicker or Clicker Heroes
I'm usually not to big into idle games because progress does eventually bottleneck at some point. But an idle game ive gotten into recently is Crush Crush. (Think Huniepop where buying gifts, talking,and going on dates gets you close r to getting into a girl's pants) and while yes the typical "OwO big anime booba" is a factor in my enjoyment, what separates it from other idle games is that each girl has an endgoal. It's not like cookie clicker where numbers just infinitely go up, there is a sense of actual accomplishment as well as progression. Not to mention I'm a sucker for playing games in the background while listening to Game Discussions, Movie Reviews, or ASMR, so it helps scratch that itch without becoming repetitive.
So it's all just a Skinner box machine, do a task repeatedly and you get a small reward, then increase the time between rewards until you're rapidly clicking 500 times or waiting hours to show up again, maybe even better introduce a new game entirely above the clicking and now that is dependent on the click economy. Skinner Box gets a bad name from Pay to Play type games that just rob people of money but as browser games or true F2P with minimal ads, these games can be interesting
Progress Quest FTW! Should be rn in background all the time!
Good video, but in my opinion you should have included a segment about the IRC idle games. I think those were the originators of the genre, and I have fond memories of them.
Thank you for making this
Actually clicker games are not "surprisingly" satisfying. They are designed on purpose to do exactly what You describe... they give out meaningless rewards just to give You the feeling of satisfaction so You come back. You dont play a clicker game to have engaging gameplay, You dont play a clicker game to have fun, the actual gameplay is in its core just a meaningless, annoying task You would NEVER do in a different setting, but You come back to get the next dopamine rush when You get a reward.
In Short: Clicker games are Skinner boxes. They are an operant conditoning program with one task: to condition You to play it. You would NEVER press a button the whole day in any other circumstance. If someone would ask You to do it You would most likely say no. If Your job would be "press a button 3000 times a day" You would quit it or find it highly unsatisfying. But the skinner box is programmed in such a way that You keep coming back and do the inherently un-fun activity again and again for an increasingly rare and inherently meaningless reward.
This are exactly the same methods we use to train animals. Make them do something they dont really want to do and give them rewards for it, then slowly but surely lower the rate of the rewards to keep them from acclimatizing to it and thus lowering the effect, to keep the dopamine levels up when the reward comes.
There are some accidental Skinner boxes in games. Everyone had this point in a game where it stopped being fun but You kept plaing just to get the next level or next item or so... basically the whole basis behind grinding. But there are a lot of games that use Skinner box techniques on purpose to keep the player base up, basically making them addicted to the game. A lot of times making money out of it. Clicker games and the like are just that in its purest form.
So pure actually, they work LITERALLY the same as a Skinner box. Not about the same, but EXACTLY. The Skinner box in his first form (made by Frederic Skinner to investigate animal conditioning) was a cage for the animal and... a button for the animal to press and a device that gives out rewards if the button is pressed enough times. Sound familiar? And as players of clicker games (in Skinners case rats and doves) they kept brainlessly pressing the button again and again and again for ever rarer rewards until, after a while, they kept pressing the button even without getting rewarded for it, hundreds and hundreds of times, just for the elusive tiny reward of some tiny morsel of food once in a while. Sound familiar?
Humans think they are so smart but... the animals at least got food out of it. What do You get? Nothing. Different pictures on a screen. Yet You feel satisfied because Your animal brain tells You, You accomplished something. But in reality You accomplished nothing. On the contrary, You could have used the time to actually accomplish something...
That is the same reason why people love playing with bubble wrap. A completely meaningless, stupid task, again pressing something, but the little "plop" sound when You do it gives satisfaction. So they do it again. And again, and again...
What makes the reward from an idle game any less than a reward from any other game? There is no point in finishing Mario, or getting a high score in tetris, or winning a game of League of Legends. They are all pointless, with the only value in achieving them is what value the person has attributed to them. You could say they require effort unlike idle games and beating them is overcoming a challenge.But idle is in the name, people aren't actively playing these games.It isn't like the example you listed with someone pressing a button 3000 times a day. In that example the person is spending the whole day rather than checking in throughout the day. And in idle games there are other aspects of the game that keep it interesting, it is rarely just 'click this and see numbers go up', there are usually several different ways to increase the number because most engaging idle games grow and change.
@@toowiggly It is less about the reward and more about the activity itself. Games are inherently pointless, yes, but they are usually inherently engaging and fun. That is the difference to a skinner box. A skinner box is inherently unfun and You get Your kicks our of inherently meaningless rewards, You slog through unfun activities to have fun later. A game is fun in itself, the value of a game comes from playing it. You dont play games that are not fun, no matter the reward, except they are designed as a skinner box.
Slot machines for example are such a skinner box. The activity itself is unfun and can ruin Your life, but a lot of people play them religiously for the elusive reward once in a while. And in the whole process they dont see that they used up more resources getting the reward than the reward itself gives back. They play ONLY for the reward and use up more than they get from the reward. In some skinner box setups animals actually used up more calories to do the unfun activity than they got back from eating the reward, but they still did it. As a slot machine player puts in more coins than he gets out or a clicker player. They usually have monetization. You pay money to be able to do more of an unfun activity to reach that next, meaningless reward faster. And after weeks and weeks of playing You dont realize how much money You spent... pressing a button. That is the whole point of these games. To get You to exactly that point... the point where You are willing to pay real money to press a button a thousand times to see a pretty picture... even if You could watch the same pretty picture without paying and pressing a button a thousand times just by looking it up on the internet
@@DrZalmat I wrote a paragraph then accidentally deleted it, so I give up
In short: *types 4 paragraphs*
Look at you, mashing buttons on your keyboard to make squigly lines on a screen. You get no food reward, you are dumber than an animal.
When you oversimplify things, you can make anything sound silly.
Cookie clicker's end condition is having all achievements upgrades heavenly upgrades and having thr max amount of buildings (when the price reaches "infinity")
Clicker Heroes completely consumed me for a few weeks about a year ago now and probably would have ended up literally ruining my life had I not uninstalled Steam was a result of it. I hate that I love it.
Oh god Trimps. I was months in and only got to Mechtrimps, before my browser wiped my save.
The first Idle game I ever encountered was IdleRPG back on IRC in like 2007
For me clicking is not the end itself, but a mean to it's end. I want to finish my idle games quickly and if I can't I quit. And yes, I play these games for their twists and turns. There's usually alot of creativity and isider jokes hidden inside. And of course I do like - no, LOVE - to watch numbers go up.
These are my favorite games. Numbers going up and up and up
for me, clicker games are fun, because I don't have so much time for games, and I still get progress even though i'm not playing it. I love progress, and I love gaming too.. when I have the time for it
I accidentally got into one of these games when it was heavily advertised as a puzzle game. It was some "Heros bla-bla".
This is just some scam. I played for some time waiting for some kind of adventure/puzzle to appear. Then I eventually figured that it feels like monotonous job, I quitted and watched reviews of this shit to get confirmation that it is a scam.
Now I know that these are so called "idle games", so I know what to avoid.
This shit spoiled my weekend.
Always thirsty for a bit of game soup.
Antimatter Dimensions!
I just know I can't play idle games anymore, specially mobile ones... I became too addicted and started tapping while on traffic or in class... so I just don't even try them because I know I'll get hooked.... This video alone is a big trigger, I'm not even kidding.
I just started the video, paused at 1 minute 8 and now I play fill the oceans, I never heard before :D
What about the game Spaceplan? It contains both a story, end point, and is an idle game.
My favorites would be NGU IDLE or IDLING TO RULE THE GODS. Both functionally the same, i find the later to be more interesting and also available on google play.
I would say Idle games are good at lowering anxiety. I play some, and they help me whenever I feel an anxiety creeping in too much.
I have played thousands and thousands of hours of Clicker Heroes. The sequel is really good, too.
Most clickers have more efficient ways of upgrading that change over time to keep things interesting.
I found Midas Gold Plus (on steam) to be the best.
You just started my addiction
I was free from clicker heroes after months of addiction, now I have to go play it again. What have you done to me !!!
I literally have trimps running in the background while watching this video
Honestly, the only one of these I've really liked is the Candy Box series, and possibly also Anti-Idle.
And even then I usually cheat if I feel like waiting would be too long without any merit.
junction gate is kinda deep, i guess. and it lets you go to 4x speed when you feel like it. you should try it!
This video got recommended to me, get ready to blow up boy!
Games like 'lootbox hero' implement a funny story within this genre
fascinating!
Awesome video!
Swarmsim, NGU Idle and Kittens Game are the best idle games i've played.
Hi! Can you add a list of the games you are showcasing? Thank you!
Tiny Tower's my life, man. Gotta reach 200 floors!
Thumbs up for that sweet, sweet dopamine hit
Trimps is going to be my life for a while
thank you for making me feel okay about playing these fuckin things
Just wondering, have you played reactor idle? If so would you regard it as an idle game?
Why I am so addicted to increasing numbers?? It is nothing special, but i am keep getting back to those games...Currently playing:
War Clicks & Holyday City Reloaded
I enjoy most idle games. Ever played idle dice? It's still in... Beta? I think..? I've gotten pretty far in it's current version. About 1/4 of the way to "gilding" every crad. Check it out if you want to know what that's all about! My friend would really enjoy that. He's making the game!
Amazing video! You guys should really check out this lecture by Jonathan Blow called 'Video games and the human condition'
What would you consider is the best Idle Game on mobile?
I have been playing Endless Frontier and enjoying it, but looking to see if there is something better/
Sorry if I'm a bit late, but I would suggest Tap Titans and Adventure Capitalist.
nice cave story bg music :)
you get to watch all the numbers grow
they get way over 9000
Are there comparisons to this and developing a try channel?
What is the difference between these type of games and Skinner box games?
In theory nothing. the thing with a skinner box is that the reward for each arbitary section or edge (to use the graph theory term) is meanigless, the key point is that a skinner box is cyclic, whilst many of these games peter off into the infinitum, If you look at something such as wow's raids, people raid to get loot and want loot to raid with, it's a cycle, whereas taking cookie clicker, you click to get currency to various forms of auto-click which rapidly flies off into lala land.
+Chris Dew Is clash of Clans a Skinner Box?
again depends on how harsly you boil down the experience, the core loop is a skinner box, but, part of the loop affects an external rating, which is one of the focus points of the game, and the genre of game, I.E. there is an out, however much like MMORPGs people are constantly playing, which brings that vestige into the loop and actually you can boil down really far to being the quintessetial skinnerbox. (so yes, but like many games, it's not that simple)
Idle games exclusively use operant conditioning to keep you coming back. So they're the pure distilled skinner box games. They are just reward for rewards sake. All games use operant conditioning to a level, but how heavily the game relies upon it is usually how people decide if it's a "skinner box" game. It's more of a spectrum than anything with idle games on one side and limbo on the other.
Whats the different of general video games and skinner box?
Not much. The only different is which one simulate the skinner box better.
My favorite idle game is Old School Runescape.
Having an idea: Make an idle game with Excel since most idle games are just about numbers. Then, slacking off at work with an Excel window opened guarantees that you'll not get caught.
I disagree with your assertment that skill and challenge don't exist in idle games. Clicker heroes and cookie clicker BOTH heavily gate content. They do this so that players have a chance to increase their skill (usually their game knowledge and their decision making efficiency) before facing new challenges (ancients, ascension, new heroes or cookie producers, upgrades, skills, etc).
They actually provide a very heavily controlled experience, but allow for skilled players to blaze past these barriers and unlock the full content.
They are only an experience in the sense that all games are an experience if you don't care how well you are doing.
If you want an idle game with a degree of skill, universal paperclips is beatable in a day if you dedicate a good portion of your day to it, keeps unraveling new content, and has a decently definitive end state.
@@DianeSteele Its great, and its possible to lose if you mismanage very badly. Beat it in less than 6 hours so worth it.
you put in derivative clicker? i got addictd to that before but now i keep playing idle roller and cube world all the time
I think you missed a critical addicting point of these games. You click and then buy and upgrade and then click and buy another upgrade. It's the thought that your next upgrade will be one that will exponentially increase your numbers when in fact each upgrade just kinda sets you back to square one until you fall back down and need to buy another upgrade.
But have you played The Kittens Game? I'm surprised I didn't see it referenced here.
When you click. You change something. Isn't that great? It's like. You exist. You have power, even if you have power in this extremely limited way. When 'you' click. You think it's 'you'. You subconsciously think that you made this choice. Even though you're just seeking rewards and validation!
You have no free will! But it doesn't matter! When you click, the world changes! This makes the complex biomechanical machine happy! Happy input = continue clicking (output!)
there are games where you dont need to click a lot
Subbed. Nicely done.
Casually playing two idle games as I'm watching this...
literally of all the idle games I've played cookie clicker and clicker heroes have been the most addicting
me then, an unsuspecting naïve young person: hey this game you click and level up heroes
me now, an old wise crone: ah yes my child come into the light XD