Lord of Change has +5 to cast as the Daemon of Tzeentch special rule gives a +1 to casting for every Tzeentch wizard in your army. With Illusion you get Glittering Robe that gives -1 to hit in melee and Shooting. You give the Lord of Change Iridescent Corona for another -1 to hit against shooting. You give it Daemonic Robes so it can be wounded at best on 3+ and you give it Twin Heads to get an extra spell. The two spells (other than Glittering Robes) is Crystal Column to block movement and/or block LoS for artillery/ranged units and Spectral Doppelganger. Spectral Doppelganger is 2d6 auto hits with any weapon the Lord of Change has equiped. The Staff of Tzeentch it comes stock with counts as a great weapon, meaining that along with it's own 4 attacks it can generate up to 12 attacks at S8 AP-2 D1 (AB 1), the only negative is strike last but remember in all likelyhood you are -1 to hit in melee and on of the signature spells for Tzeentch (Lore of Daemons) is Gift of Mutation. While short range on +8/+12 you can lower one of the following stats by d3 and if cast on +12 you can choose two: S, T, WS. The Lord of Change has WS6 so lowering an enemies' WS by even one will mean they hit on 5/6+ (due to the -1 to hit) and if you rolled a 7 on your cast (remember LoC has +5 to cast) you get to lower another stat which should be Strength because you're already at S8 on your attacks. The LoC is T6 base so again lowering the Strength of a unit by just 1 will a lot of the times mean they will wound it on 5+. Point being with Spectral doppelganger and the various buffs you can layer on him he is a melee threat that needs to be respected. and if you don't get Doppelganger (unlikely but it can happen) he's still a great disrupter with decent stats. Also Terror makes enemies (in combat) force leadership tests if failed they gain -1 to hit (going up to -2 to hit in melee under normal circomstances) and he also has some stomp attacks which can help. All this to say, i think the LoC deserves a place somewhere in A. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. EDIT: Oh and all this (with the wand for some extra shots) will cost you 475 points. (also some spelling)
@@Ironside120 The problem isn't in the effects but in knowing the spells. Caster may only switch out one randomly rolled spell for either signature of the chosen lore or one spell of the racial lore. If you take a second caster and give them Gift of Mutation, then it would work.
@@nemo-no-name I found out already is says in the Daemon Armybook i can choose either the signature spell from my chosen lore or a signature spell coresponding to my alignment from the lore of daemons. That's unfortunate otherwise teh LoC would be the complete package, so althoug if you're playing Tzeentch daemons you probably have more than 1 wizard so maybe a debuff support wizard with Gift of Mutation might still make it work. Thought i could have multiple signature spells. My bad.
Kharibdyss is at least high C. Has a higher weapon skill than most solo monsters and S7. The handlers give it two chances to save a wound as well. Has a debuff aswell so any break tests against it are -2 LD. The hydra however has no AP and definitely belongs lower. Both should cost a lot less points though.
Kharibdyss has no save bar heavy armour - while the Hydra has a 5+++. Given how prevalent shooting is in Old World I struggle to justify rating them higher than they are
when do they talk avout the forest dragon ? because attention disorder got verry bad those day and so, cannot concentrate on one thing for long without passing on something else,
I’ll play a tournament ina few weeks over here in Germany. It’s my first OW tournament and by the looks most of it the TOs over here have a point cap on powerful characters. It’s not a hard cap on max points for one character and quite interesting: 👉No character over 400 points can receive any further improvement that must be paid with points. 👈 Even an Elf Prince on Stardragon(420 pts) could not be improved further. So it’s down to: don’t rund the most powerful stuff because you won't have an array of saves/wards/regens.
Great video will enjoy seeing more of these. I disagree on the Great Unclean one being C tier below other greater daemons and giants. It was mentioned its unkillable but just sits there otherwise. With the plagueflail it is S8 for the first round of combat and AP-3 throughout and poison attacks with all the other Daemon buffs and magic opportunities/icons. Anyway I know its challenging having a fluid discussion and keeping categories straight with so many variables : )
My read on it is since it's so slow it can be avoided - hence why I rate it lower. Also I'm not super wow'd on Nurgle Daemons overall. Do you find it works well for you?
@@CloseOrderto be fair I am only going on how I have seen it in action by others. For sure Daemons are not upper tier. Anyway 45 points gives him fly (8) wings but I don’t think nurgle is usually built for speed lol cheers
@@HeresyProducktionzfly can only be on infantry unfortunately. I extensively use the GUO. It is a game winning piece. +1 attack and Plagueflail. Level 4. You ponder around the board, dictating space. You can kill 95% of anything you fight, usually very quickly. 6 attacks, poison, S8, AP-3, D3 wounds. You can flat out brawl other super dragon lords, and in most cases win handily. Watch out for especially elite Ogre blade users and monster slayer stuff. Monster slayer has a low chance of working, but we all know it will sometimes. Not worth the risk of losing your game winning piece imo unless you can get the charge and kill em quick.
Just started watching and already... Specifically High Elf Mages can be really good in combat while on the dragon. Assailments can really help make them do damage and taking Blood of Caledor fixes the WS issue and gives them Full Armour.
@@CloseOrder kinda true, but I think they do better on Sun Dragon than Nobles or Princes. Although the recent nerf to Walk Between Worlds does hamper that strategy.
@@drakeushellblade1786They forbid casting any Conveyance spells if you charge in the latest FAQ. Previously it was possible since it was a Self range spell and so able to be cast while in Close Combat. It would make you Ethereal. Note that you can now still cast it in 2nd or following turn of combat, just not if you charged that turn.
Isn't the hellpit abomination debatably the best unit in Skaven and a great unit in general? Every comp list takes as many as they can I've seen, feels weird to have it in C tier, given it's pretty cheap and absolutely carries the army currently, I feel like this list does not take point cost into account enough
It's a glass cannon, and IMO a trap unit. I went 3-2 (threw the last game on T5) with Skaven this weekend - no Hellpit, just a metric ton of Gutter Runners
It's in the description of this video ruclips.net/video/--VFeQhWBbY/видео.html I go into detail with Denarius (the Wood Elf player who won the biggest Old World event so far using this list)
@@ulstar You can, it only removed the two head rule from the special rules section since RAW you got the second head for free. Just a bit of typo correction!
So the official close order advice would be troll hags ahead of a bone grinder? At 2000pts ive been using a hag, 2 giants , and a bone grinder but would you swap the bone grinder for a 2nd hag ?
I really like the Troll Hag, especially for the points difference! The Merc table you have to roll on pre-game worries me too.much to want to sink a lot of points into a Bonegrinder honestly
Getting this comment in before I get into the actual rankings, if Mangler Squigs are not fairly high up I will be very surprised and interested in hearing the reasoning.
@@CloseOrder Nice. Top of B wasn't a bad initial spot, especially if the reasoning behind the other picks lines everything up neatly. The two top spots, both dragons, are already hard to argue with, and at just under 20 minutes in I still only see the Troll Hag and Imperial Griffon above the Mangler. Both are units I have not tried using myself, nor played against, but at a glance seem pretty good too. While I have your attention, do you think currently Orcs are pretty strong when run in some kind of MSU configuration? I've been having great success in casual games with friends running 3 Night Goblin characters in order to run 3x Manglers, 3x min-size Hoppers, and basic Night Goblins in 3 blocks with maxed out fanatics, and then usually sprinkling in a unit or two of Herders to close out the core requirements and just as a cheap but damaging skirmishing screen. I usually round out my list with a Warboss on Wyvern and some artillery, though I have dabbled with chariots, black orcs, etc. With the recent FAQ I'm probably making the blocks HW+shield rather than shortbows, as having 30 per unit with shortbows seems prohibitively expensive just to get the fanatics. Oh and I really enjoyed the boar boys video, I would say the best way to describe my problem with heavy cavalry in this game is that I'm just doctrinally adverse to the very idea of them. A lot of the heavy cav in this game, just at a glance, seem like very expensive baskets of eggs that are too easy to poke holes into, with respect to point for point efficacy. Struggled to present a good argument for why one of those expensive heavy cav units was better than two (or even three) Manglers, or some combination of Manglers and Hoppers. That video made me reconsider, as the point on relative cheapness was convincing and the math behind relative output even more so. I will definitely try them out in my next list. Cheers!
Thanks for the in depth comment! I think MSU is maybe where the game should head overall - it seems quite strong with the amount of shooting in the game currently. Mangler Squigs are something I'm happy to see 3 of - maybe some sort of monster mash with 3 Manglers, 2 Wyverns and something fast and punchy (e.g. boars) in special could be good? Fanatics are very much a strong safety blanket for O&G though - so I don't expect too much innovation on the list for a while
Regarding the ogres, did you add a tyrant on stonehorn to B, which is in every other list and at the same time a giant that no one plays seriously because it's a meme unit? 😀
The giant is totally a fine unit imo. Very under appreciated and under taken by the community. Pretty much all behemoths are playable. I do agree that the stonehorn tyrant is better than it, though
It being taken a lot means it's one of the best choices for the list - not that it's objectively great. There might have been some inconsistencies with how we approached some books (War Sphinx being rated low compared to other Behemoths in the book), but ew didn't have time to have a last look over at the end as Tom's phone was going flat
@CloseOrder 😮 just had a game against a mates O&G and smugly informed him his wyvern wasn't a Behemoth after watching this - time to eat some humble pie
The regular orcs and goblins giant is awful. It has all the same durability problems as the bonegrinder, and it’s much more random. F tier for me, and bonegrinder should be in B tier
I'm not opposed to the regular Giant being in F, but Bonegrinder being a Mercenary is a non-starter for me. I don't think any of the events I've been at allowed Mercs, and the downsides of you roll a 1 pre-game can make the unit a 300 point liability so I can't rate it anywhere highly
@@CloseOrder with orcs and goblins, if you go up against a kitted out dragon (think chaos dragon, magic resist, all the saves), you don’t have a strong counter. Usually you’re trying to waste its turns by dodging charge arcs, chipping wounds with fanatics, bringing combat res blocks, etc…. The Bonegrinder is the one thing you can bring where a dragon is absolutely terrified of it getting its attack off and rolling on that table
@@CloseOrder you’re correct, the dragon definitely has the mobility advantage and can dictate combat. At a minimum it would create a no-go zone for the dragon, which is more than anything else in the O&G army list can accomplish (maybe a combat res goblin block can do that too)
If we don’t consider point cost, then yes, chaos lord on dragon is the most powerful behemoth in the game because it hits like a freight train and it makes YOU go last. If we consider the point cost then tge Star Dragon is clearly better as it costs roughly half the points of the chaos dragon and has a 2+/5++/5+++ stack that makes it really difficult to kill (with potential fo a couple extra 2++ if you feel you absolutely need not to die).
The Chaos Lord with a 2+/5++/5+++ & Fights Last costs ~560pts before other upgrades. The Star Dragon with a 2+/5++/5+++ costs ~490pts before other upgrades. 70pts is hardly twice as much
@@CloseOrder when all is said and done I usually build the chaos lord like this: Chaos Lord [622 pts] - Hand weapon - Full plate armour - Shield - Mark of Nurgle - General - Chaos Dragon - Crown of Everlasting Conquest - Favour of the Gods - Dragon Slaying Sword - Enchanting Aura You are right that it is not double the price but it is significantly costlier. And as an aside, I don’t think you can get the chaos lord on dragon to have 2+/5++/5+++. Unless I’m missing something, since the nerf to bedazzling helm, best you can do is 3+/5++/5+++
You're right, brain farted on the 2+ save. However you're adding a 50 point magic sword and acting like that's a reasonable comparison to the base HE model - a more reasonable comparison is without that - so 575ish? You could just as easily give the HE dragon a Giant Blade or similar which puts them at 520ish - so the Chaos Dragon is 20% more tooled up, or about 15% more if you go basic on weapons. Fights last is also super optional - it's nice, but you have the bulk to survive hits if needed. Either way, the Chaos Dragon is definately more that 15-20% better depending how you want to tool either up - the only consideration is you can run double HE Dragon (although only one gets a decent Ward Save)
Beastmen need some love I think. No flying beast for a lord, stuck on rubbish chariots. Monsters not so good. Infantry and cavalry ate rubbish... well, dragon ogres are good... but they need something thst can countercjarge or hVe swiftstride.
Lord of Change has +5 to cast as the Daemon of Tzeentch special rule gives a +1 to casting for every Tzeentch wizard in your army. With Illusion you get Glittering Robe that gives -1 to hit in melee and Shooting. You give the Lord of Change Iridescent Corona for another -1 to hit against shooting. You give it Daemonic Robes so it can be wounded at best on 3+ and you give it Twin Heads to get an extra spell. The two spells (other than Glittering Robes) is Crystal Column to block movement and/or block LoS for artillery/ranged units and Spectral Doppelganger. Spectral Doppelganger is 2d6 auto hits with any weapon the Lord of Change has equiped. The Staff of Tzeentch it comes stock with counts as a great weapon, meaining that along with it's own 4 attacks it can generate up to 12 attacks at S8 AP-2 D1 (AB 1), the only negative is strike last but remember in all likelyhood you are -1 to hit in melee and on of the signature spells for Tzeentch (Lore of Daemons) is Gift of Mutation. While short range on +8/+12 you can lower one of the following stats by d3 and if cast on +12 you can choose two: S, T, WS. The Lord of Change has WS6 so lowering an enemies' WS by even one will mean they hit on 5/6+ (due to the -1 to hit) and if you rolled a 7 on your cast (remember LoC has +5 to cast) you get to lower another stat which should be Strength because you're already at S8 on your attacks. The LoC is T6 base so again lowering the Strength of a unit by just 1 will a lot of the times mean they will wound it on 5+. Point being with Spectral doppelganger and the various buffs you can layer on him he is a melee threat that needs to be respected. and if you don't get Doppelganger (unlikely but it can happen) he's still a great disrupter with decent stats. Also Terror makes enemies (in combat) force leadership tests if failed they gain -1 to hit (going up to -2 to hit in melee under normal circomstances) and he also has some stomp attacks which can help.
All this to say, i think the LoC deserves a place somewhere in A.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
EDIT: Oh and all this (with the wand for some extra shots) will cost you 475 points. (also some spelling)
That's one hell of a ted talk! I'll have to give it a go at some point!
@@Ironside120 just a minor note, you can't have both Glittering Robes and Gift of Mutation
@@nemo-no-name Why not? Both are signature spells and Glittering Robes is cast on the LoC himslef and Gift of Mutation is cast on the enemy?
@@Ironside120 The problem isn't in the effects but in knowing the spells. Caster may only switch out one randomly rolled spell for either signature of the chosen lore or one spell of the racial lore.
If you take a second caster and give them Gift of Mutation, then it would work.
@@nemo-no-name I found out already is says in the Daemon Armybook i can choose either the signature spell from my chosen lore or a signature spell coresponding to my alignment from the lore of daemons. That's unfortunate otherwise teh LoC would be the complete package, so althoug if you're playing Tzeentch daemons you probably have more than 1 wizard so maybe a debuff support wizard with Gift of Mutation might still make it work. Thought i could have multiple signature spells. My bad.
Just watching this to see which units Ungrim will be able to instakill. *happy dwarf noises
Thank you for this. Would great to see other tier list video for other troop types.
45:30 definitely agree with MoreRobots.. I have words I'll keep to myself about people who abused the VERY clear intention.
You dont know how much you have helped me with my troll hag!
Kharibdyss is at least high C. Has a higher weapon skill than most solo monsters and S7. The handlers give it two chances to save a wound as well. Has a debuff aswell so any break tests against it are -2 LD. The hydra however has no AP and definitely belongs lower. Both should cost a lot less points though.
Kharibdyss has no save bar heavy armour - while the Hydra has a 5+++.
Given how prevalent shooting is in Old World I struggle to justify rating them higher than they are
On the arachnarok spider “this thing is an absolute beefcake” XD
You seen a strongman flexing? Now imagine him with 8 arms 😎
18:50 500p cap what do you mean? Is is like same king of Gw think or just your locak tunament scen want to house rule?
This is an expected (but not confirmed) change that GW might bring in
I am currently toying around with a triple spider list with two Elementalists TMPing them around.
That sounds pretty fun!
when do they talk avout the forest dragon ? because attention disorder got verry bad those day and so, cannot concentrate on one thing for long without passing on something else,
Uhhh elf illusionist with the white sword will dice anything.l after casting doppelgängers.
It would be cool if yall posted the end results in the description.
I’ll play a tournament ina few weeks over here in Germany.
It’s my first OW tournament and by the looks most of it the TOs over here have a point cap on powerful characters.
It’s not a hard cap on max points for one character and quite interesting:
👉No character over 400 points can receive any further improvement that must be paid with points. 👈
Even an Elf Prince on Stardragon(420 pts) could not be improved further.
So it’s down to: don’t rund the most powerful stuff because you won't have an array of saves/wards/regens.
That's an interesting way of balancing things! I'll be interested to see how this shapes the meta
@@CloseOrder I’ll report back in September.
Great video will enjoy seeing more of these. I disagree on the Great Unclean one being C tier below other greater daemons and giants. It was mentioned its unkillable but just sits there otherwise. With the plagueflail it is S8 for the first round of combat and AP-3 throughout and poison attacks with all the other Daemon buffs and magic opportunities/icons. Anyway I know its challenging having a fluid discussion and keeping categories straight with so many variables : )
My read on it is since it's so slow it can be avoided - hence why I rate it lower. Also I'm not super wow'd on Nurgle Daemons overall.
Do you find it works well for you?
@@CloseOrderto be fair I am only going on how I have seen it in action by others. For sure Daemons are not upper tier. Anyway 45 points gives him fly (8) wings but I don’t think nurgle is usually built for speed lol cheers
@@HeresyProducktionzfly can only be on infantry unfortunately. I extensively use the GUO. It is a game winning piece. +1 attack and Plagueflail. Level 4. You ponder around the board, dictating space. You can kill 95% of anything you fight, usually very quickly. 6 attacks, poison, S8, AP-3, D3 wounds. You can flat out brawl other super dragon lords, and in most cases win handily. Watch out for especially elite Ogre blade users and monster slayer stuff. Monster slayer has a low chance of working, but we all know it will sometimes. Not worth the risk of losing your game winning piece imo unless you can get the charge and kill em quick.
I think a down side of any character unit that causes impact hits is that you can just negate them by challenging them with a unit champion.
That's fair! It's the same story for stomps though, so it doesn't feel more egregious
Just started watching and already... Specifically High Elf Mages can be really good in combat while on the dragon. Assailments can really help make them do damage and taking Blood of Caledor fixes the WS issue and gives them Full Armour.
Sure, but you wouldn't put a mage on a Sun Dragon - you'd put one on a Star Dragon
@@CloseOrder kinda true, but I think they do better on Sun Dragon than Nobles or Princes. Although the recent nerf to Walk Between Worlds does hamper that strategy.
@@nemo-no-name how did walk between worlds get nerfed?
@@drakeushellblade1786They forbid casting any Conveyance spells if you charge in the latest FAQ. Previously it was possible since it was a Self range spell and so able to be cast while in Close Combat. It would make you Ethereal.
Note that you can now still cast it in 2nd or following turn of combat, just not if you charged that turn.
Isn't the hellpit abomination debatably the best unit in Skaven and a great unit in general? Every comp list takes as many as they can I've seen, feels weird to have it in C tier, given it's pretty cheap and absolutely carries the army currently, I feel like this list does not take point cost into account enough
It's a glass cannon, and IMO a trap unit.
I went 3-2 (threw the last game on T5) with Skaven this weekend - no Hellpit, just a metric ton of Gutter Runners
I thought characters on chariots/howdah units couldn't be killed by killing blow or monster slayer. Wouldn't it make it a good character carrier?
Chariots can't, Howdah doesn't impart this immunity
Bat Swarms have fly and also don't have Swiftstride.
205 for a Lvl2 caster on great Taurus is not bad! Especially against infantry. Fast, blazing body. Spell support like Flames of Hashut.
Definitely something I'm interested in playing around with!
Waht is the triple pillar fire list (wood elves). Where do I find such building list for amy race?
It's in the description of this video ruclips.net/video/--VFeQhWBbY/видео.html
I go into detail with Denarius (the Wood Elf player who won the biggest Old World event so far using this list)
How do you get the empire griffon to a 2+?
Plate armor + Shield is only a 3+ and you can't take the Bedazzling helm anymore
Can’t buy barding on empire griffon?
Edit: just checked, comes with armoured pelt which doesn’t stack, can’t get barding, you’re right.
Yeah that's fair - thought they had a helm in book, but must have misremembered!
And you can't get two heads anymore, after the last faq.
@@ulstar You can, it only removed the two head rule from the special rules section since RAW you got the second head for free. Just a bit of typo correction!
So the official close order advice would be troll hags ahead of a bone grinder? At 2000pts ive been using a hag, 2 giants , and a bone grinder but would you swap the bone grinder for a 2nd hag ?
I really like the Troll Hag, especially for the points difference!
The Merc table you have to roll on pre-game worries me too.much to want to sink a lot of points into a Bonegrinder honestly
@@CloseOrder thanks, ill give it a go!
No Hellcannon? 😢
I knew I'd miss one! I mean... I'm deliberately adding it to Warmachines 😶
Getting this comment in before I get into the actual rankings, if Mangler Squigs are not fairly high up I will be very surprised and interested in hearing the reasoning.
I really like mangler squigs! I end up upgrading them from their initial placing later in the video
@@CloseOrder Nice. Top of B wasn't a bad initial spot, especially if the reasoning behind the other picks lines everything up neatly. The two top spots, both dragons, are already hard to argue with, and at just under 20 minutes in I still only see the Troll Hag and Imperial Griffon above the Mangler. Both are units I have not tried using myself, nor played against, but at a glance seem pretty good too.
While I have your attention, do you think currently Orcs are pretty strong when run in some kind of MSU configuration? I've been having great success in casual games with friends running 3 Night Goblin characters in order to run 3x Manglers, 3x min-size Hoppers, and basic Night Goblins in 3 blocks with maxed out fanatics, and then usually sprinkling in a unit or two of Herders to close out the core requirements and just as a cheap but damaging skirmishing screen. I usually round out my list with a Warboss on Wyvern and some artillery, though I have dabbled with chariots, black orcs, etc. With the recent FAQ I'm probably making the blocks HW+shield rather than shortbows, as having 30 per unit with shortbows seems prohibitively expensive just to get the fanatics.
Oh and I really enjoyed the boar boys video, I would say the best way to describe my problem with heavy cavalry in this game is that I'm just doctrinally adverse to the very idea of them. A lot of the heavy cav in this game, just at a glance, seem like very expensive baskets of eggs that are too easy to poke holes into, with respect to point for point efficacy. Struggled to present a good argument for why one of those expensive heavy cav units was better than two (or even three) Manglers, or some combination of Manglers and Hoppers. That video made me reconsider, as the point on relative cheapness was convincing and the math behind relative output even more so. I will definitely try them out in my next list. Cheers!
Thanks for the in depth comment!
I think MSU is maybe where the game should head overall - it seems quite strong with the amount of shooting in the game currently.
Mangler Squigs are something I'm happy to see 3 of - maybe some sort of monster mash with 3 Manglers, 2 Wyverns and something fast and punchy (e.g. boars) in special could be good?
Fanatics are very much a strong safety blanket for O&G though - so I don't expect too much innovation on the list for a while
Regarding the ogres, did you add a tyrant on stonehorn to B, which is in every other list and at the same time a giant that no one plays seriously because it's a meme unit? 😀
The giant is totally a fine unit imo. Very under appreciated and under taken by the community. Pretty much all behemoths are playable. I do agree that the stonehorn tyrant is better than it, though
It being taken a lot means it's one of the best choices for the list - not that it's objectively great. There might have been some inconsistencies with how we approached some books (War Sphinx being rated low compared to other Behemoths in the book), but ew didn't have time to have a last look over at the end as Tom's phone was going flat
What about the lizardmen Troglodon and Basilodon, do these big boys not count into this list?
Neither is a Behemoth oddly enough!
0:10 i feell very big ;]
I find the orc choices so weird, but sure have the aracnarok above a bone grinder giant and giants be B as well
Mercenaries are a) not allowed at a lot of events and b) have a whole table to mess you up before you even get them into game
@@CloseOrder Ty for explaining I didn't realise events don't allow mercs
@@FaithfulInsanity No worries! One of the cooler models released in recent memory though
8:20
Uuu took that uglt aos gigant.
Why not butyful old world one ;]
No shaggoth on this list? Am i missing something or are you putting them in a different subcategory?
Shaggoth's aren't behemoths! I'll get to them in a Monster Tier List down the line
@CloseOrder 😮 just had a game against a mates O&G and smugly informed him his wyvern wasn't a Behemoth after watching this - time to eat some humble pie
The regular orcs and goblins giant is awful. It has all the same durability problems as the bonegrinder, and it’s much more random. F tier for me, and bonegrinder should be in B tier
I'm not opposed to the regular Giant being in F, but Bonegrinder being a Mercenary is a non-starter for me.
I don't think any of the events I've been at allowed Mercs, and the downsides of you roll a 1 pre-game can make the unit a 300 point liability so I can't rate it anywhere highly
@@CloseOrder with orcs and goblins, if you go up against a kitted out dragon (think chaos dragon, magic resist, all the saves), you don’t have a strong counter. Usually you’re trying to waste its turns by dodging charge arcs, chipping wounds with fanatics, bringing combat res blocks, etc….
The Bonegrinder is the one thing you can bring where a dragon is absolutely terrified of it getting its attack off and rolling on that table
A good player should never let you get the Bonegrinder into combat with the dragon - it's so much less manoeuvrable
@@CloseOrder you’re correct, the dragon definitely has the mobility advantage and can dictate combat. At a minimum it would create a no-go zone for the dragon, which is more than anything else in the O&G army list can accomplish (maybe a combat res goblin block can do that too)
@@CloseOrder I’m also trying it in troll horde with a re-rollable regeneration save from the spell
If we don’t consider point cost, then yes, chaos lord on dragon is the most powerful behemoth in the game because it hits like a freight train and it makes YOU go last. If we consider the point cost then tge Star Dragon is clearly better as it costs roughly half the points of the chaos dragon and has a 2+/5++/5+++ stack that makes it really difficult to kill (with potential fo a couple extra 2++ if you feel you absolutely need not to die).
The Chaos Lord with a 2+/5++/5+++ & Fights Last costs ~560pts before other upgrades.
The Star Dragon with a 2+/5++/5+++ costs ~490pts before other upgrades.
70pts is hardly twice as much
@@CloseOrder when all is said and done I usually build the chaos lord like this:
Chaos Lord [622 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Mark of Nurgle
- General
- Chaos Dragon
- Crown of Everlasting Conquest
- Favour of the Gods
- Dragon Slaying Sword
- Enchanting Aura
You are right that it is not double the price but it is significantly costlier. And as an aside, I don’t think you can get the chaos lord on dragon to have 2+/5++/5+++. Unless I’m missing something, since the nerf to bedazzling helm, best you can do is 3+/5++/5+++
You're right, brain farted on the 2+ save.
However you're adding a 50 point magic sword and acting like that's a reasonable comparison to the base HE model - a more reasonable comparison is without that - so 575ish?
You could just as easily give the HE dragon a Giant Blade or similar which puts them at 520ish - so the Chaos Dragon is 20% more tooled up, or about 15% more if you go basic on weapons.
Fights last is also super optional - it's nice, but you have the bulk to survive hits if needed.
Either way, the Chaos Dragon is definately more that 15-20% better depending how you want to tool either up - the only consideration is you can run double HE Dragon (although only one gets a decent Ward Save)
Beastmen need some love I think. No flying beast for a lord, stuck on rubbish chariots. Monsters not so good. Infantry and cavalry ate rubbish... well, dragon ogres are good... but they need something thst can countercjarge or hVe swiftstride.