Surprised the owner hasn't hired a machinist to make a replica belt. They have all the Aberdeen photo's to go off of. Guess they never intend for it to be shot. Really I don't consider a feed belt a crucial 'original part'. A belt's a belt is a belt if you ask me. And this gun has all the parts that matter. Well, aside from the long lost top and barrel.
-SMGs are good because we can make them really cheap and simple -Okay, ill make it belt fed then, im German, thats the most simple thing i can imagine!
I recall a lot of early tanks with either excessive number of real machine guns, or a shortage of guns and just pistol ports. This type of firearm would of helped fill the gap.
It makes sense if this was, like Ian said, a point defense weapons meant for vehicles. No need for magazines if the weapons are not meant to move from position.
Hell I'm pretty sure there's enough people here who would trade the stolen belt for a generic belt with no questions asked, just to recover the unique historical artefact.
@@neilwilson5785 I had totally forgotten about that! But yeah, sometimes the recovery of the item is far far more important than any potential punishment....
A fully automatic belt-fed firearm that uses inexpensive ammunition? The question isn't "why would you want a gun like this" but rather "why WOULDN'T would you want a gun like this"
@@Patrick-857 imagine if someone fully worked the project out, and made a belt fed PCMG that was capable of several thousand rounds per minute. You'd need one hell of a gas port.
To play devil's advocate, it would suggest removing what makes a submachine gun/pistol/pdf so wonderful, which is the low weight and high maneuverability. As Ian mentioned, it could be a great weapon for a vehicle, especially ones for scouting. With that said, now you have to decide is it worth making a weapon with such a niche value? Yes, this would be perfect for a jeep but we can already put a browning on a jeep so why bother? Belt fed smgs actually came about during WW1 as a solution to clearing trenches more effectively. Now that it's WW2 and wonderful smgs like the PPSH are coming out, why bother? To me, this is one of those beautiful experiments that was made to solve an issue that would soon become obsolete. Yes, the Sega Dreamcast is very cool, it can clear trenches better than a shotgun or any other rifle but it came out a month after WW1 ended and now it's WW2 and we have Playstation 2s and Xboxes.
Had it been designed earlier I could see it as trench raiding sort of weapon. One could imagine 50-100 rounds in a belt and few of these in a squad. Just might be effective.
at less than 100 meters with no body armour, I would not want to be standing in front of it 9mm spraying everywhere that's a scary idea. people always underestimate the danger of pistol cal ammo.
A belt-fed gun is not ideal for an assaulter, you are not very mobile with a belt around your body. But a drum magazine version might works, like a PPSH very good for room clearing.
@@nunyabizness199 unless they're caught And I'm betting a one of a kind ww2 collectors item would be desired by collectors And I'm betting that's where it is right now
Interestingly enough Soviets designed a functionally similar gun in 1942-43 in 7,62x25 mm TT pistol caliber. It was called LAD and wasn't designed for vehicle mounts but as 'proper' infantry light machine gun. Allegedly it was effective up to 400 meters and was supposed to give PPSh/PPS armed units more firepower at longer ranges without sacrificing close range and mobility. But the gun wasn't adopted into service obviously.
Yeah. And here is some related pictures: www.kalashnikov.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ulanov-3.jpg www.kalashnikov.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ulanov-5.jpg
@@junichiroyamashita The irony is that it most likely would have been in combat service. But when (summer 1943) the Soviet troops captured one MKb42(H)...with 4 catrigdes lol... "We must started to develop our, soviet guns for intermediate cartridges " was became a priority of the work. And all this things with developing the MG's with a pistol cartridge was stopped.
I can't believe there is one still in existence (I formerly knew it under the name 'Erma Gurt 44' from an old youtube vid and the gun wikia entry). Thanks Ian
In concept, it's not actually a bad idea. I've always wondered why something like this didn't turn up during the First World War. If you know that a 9mm is lethal to at least 400 or 500 meters, if perhaps not particularly accurate, and you want to harass the crap out of an enemy position, it'd be way easier to set up a belt fed 9mm and continually suppress an enemy trench or strongpoint. If a round did hit home, it'd still have the potential to kill or wound, but on the other end, the gun would be man portable, and the ammo would be easier to transport, and cheaper to manufacture (from a materials point of view). If you've got to haul 10,000 rounds for a machinegun from the rear, up support trenches through enemy fire, to the front line, that's only a couple of trips with 9mm versus maybe 10 trips for belted 8mm. Something like this could also be carried forward in an assault, with sufficient ammo, to mount a point blank defense of a captured enemy position. No, it won't harass enemy formations or crossroads at 4000m distance, but it's still viable at short and intermediate ranges.
I agree with you, this makes sense in an urban warfare situation for Volkssturm units, as a support weapon. Looking at the picture of the original prototype, we can see that it is meant to be carried, not fixed inside a vehicle, and it fits to the standards of Volkssturm weapons (as described in the book "Desperate Measures" by W. Darrin Weaver) : use of simple materials (tubes, no extrusion), fewparts, economical (if crude) manufacture.
That's basically what the Villar-Perosa was meant to do when they adapted it for ground troops. The main thing is, during the first world war there were many feeding systems still in use, and belt feed was actually not entirely the norm. That combined with that many of the more ingenious designs in the war were weapons that were developed prior to the outbreak of war, that were later adopted by the military mid conflict once they saw their usefulness (like the Lewis gun). R&D is expensive enough that generally, if you were in charge it made more sense to make/buy more guns then waste money developing new designs. Submachine guns are a rare example of a weapon type that ended up being developed in the midst of the war, as prior to the outbreak of war the prevailing sentiment was that engagements would be all at long range, and require accurate, slower fire. You see that with all the powerful, long range guns everyone had going in to the conflict. They're all basically built for sniping, but without optics. If you were planning on developing a gun to sell to the military, it would probably be a waste of time to try and make a pistol calibur automatic. They wouldn't have bought it. While in the middle of world war 1, they didn't really have the time resources to develop a gun like that. It took till basically the last 2 months of the war for SMGS to even be fielded, and they barely made it in. TLDR It might have been a great concept, but it's a hard sell to the military so it's not surprising we dont hear of anyone developing something like that, or if they did they probably couldnt sell it and lost money in the endeavor.
Hey so how many pre-fixes do you want the gun to have? "Yeah i'd like a few. Maybe uhhh.. make it a machine gun!" Any specifications? "A light machine gun! Which is belt-fed!" That's pretty standard sir.. "Well then make it a bullpup too!" Now we're talking!
I don't get why some people are so upset by BF1 and BFV. I just think of them as alternate history, because unlike many inaccurate historical films such as Braveheart, those games never claim to be based on true story.
EA/Dice said that they were trying to create a documentary about the era while also taking creative liberties... which defeats the purpose of 'documenting' it. It'd be like telling kids that 9/11 was committed by space aliens to 'make it more fun' for them to learn about.
Honestly doesn't seem like a terrible idea for a smaller port-firing point defense weapon. I'd imagine any benefits wouldn't warrant mass production or adoption, but I could see that use making sense.
but at the same time you're loosing a lot of the benefits of a mounted gun in that you can fire a heavier round and not care because there's no recoil and that heavier round can do more than just anti personnel
The cylindrical part on the original gun seems most likely to be a revolving feed mechanism. Much like on the Schwarzlose MG 7/12 or like on the soviet Shkas from WWII. The smaller cylindrical part on top then would contain a shaft to move the feeder, with the shaft being activated by a studd running in a helical groove.
I can see this being very useful for the urban combat common in Europe during WWII. It would much easier to shoot and scoot with this than with an MG-42, and 9MM would be sufficent at those ranges.
A lot of trouble was basically what they did then. After WWII everyone, America, Russia, France etc. wanted to make sure they got as much of the Research funded by the NAZI war machine as possible. Mostly the Allies had spent the War years on the back foot when it came to technology and it was only when the manufacturing capabilities of the US took the pressure off the issue of replacing lost materials they could move from "Must have" to "We'd kinda like" when it came to weapons and munitions. The iconic Spitfire is a good example, there simply weren't the facilities and the materials to make enough of them quickly so the Hurricane, which was designed to be made more quickly and far less expensively, bore the brunt of the fighting.
@@cptreech The British were producing like 400 fighters per month during the Battle of Britain where as the Luftwaffe was only producing about 170 ME109 per month.
@@cptreech Your example of the spitfire is not apt at all. The reason the Hurricane was used more widely is that it was adopted for service earlier and so was tooled up faster, many Spitfires used during the Battle of Britain had been privately purchased. During the battle of britain Hurricanes where delegated to attack bomber formations to allow the Spitfires to engage any fighter escorts
@@bengrogan9710 The Spitfires engaging the 109s is what allowed the slow and sluggish but much faster to produce Hurricane to engage the bombers. Without the Spitfires NATZI losses would have been negligible leading to badness things.
Besides a firing port weapon, i could see this used as a specialist house-clearing/house to house fighting weapon. Stopping to reload is a dangerous thing, and if you have a 250 round belt you can go through several rooms without reloading. Just a thought.
A different approach would be 50 to 75 round, disintegrating link belt. Simpler to mfg. and smaller than a drum and does not protrude like a high capacity stick.
@@hrentr Yeah, that would work if you have the manufacturing capacity to spare, but this was towards the end so i´m sure a re-usable belt would have looked more enticing.
I'm working on some video game design stuff and we wanted an alternate-world weapon, and I told the artist I wanted an ugly submachine gun. Like truly fugly: a uncomfortable looking grip, a muffler for a barrel shroud and a boot for a stock. He linked me this video with no further context. We're adapting this to our game. Mag-fed, though, we're not madmen.
Ian, I was just in a massive fight with my mother. And on the verge of tears. And I dont know how or why but your videos always calm me down so well. And make me feel so.much better. You have no idea how.much you help.people. even when you don't mean to do anything more than educate us, you end up helping us all. Thank you for doing what you do. -a friend
This would be a really neat piece of kit for fortress or urban defense. Sustained shoulder or hipfire in a pistol cartridge, down a hallway or sidestreet could be devastating.
I mean, its like any similar small sized firearm with a large ammo feed design (e.g. modern m4 carbines with drum mags). More full auto power, with lightness and mobility to be used easily in cqb style warfare. This would probably be pretty good at clearing buildings. And i can see the point defense style mountings making sense. If your just gonna be shooting to the end of the street, and want fast fire and small size, this would be pretty useful
The only firearms channel that's worth seeing all its content. Explanations are invariably clear and concise and very nicely illustrated on camera. Not easy to imagine how this formula could be improved... nice work, Sir!
I gotta say, that gun is a great find, and it would be interesting to see how it would have preformed as a bowgun. I suspect the original sights flipped up so that the gun could be used effectively if taken with the tank crew if they needed to bail out and have a self defense weapon. Prehaps having a shorter, lighter gun that could more easily fit through tank hatches, and effectively replace both LMG based bowguns and the SMG frequently issued to tankers was the imputus for development? I suppose it would also have meant that if the rest of the crew carried MP-40s or something you could have standardized on 9mm ammo for everyone too, but that would suggest that going belt fed probably wasn’t a good idea if that was the goal...
On the subject of firing port weapons, it's interesting to note that the German Army developed a version of the Uzi for use as a firing port weapon in their Marder MICVs.
That 'last ditch rifle' looks pretty interesting, It appears to be a fixed bolt action, where the barrel and chamber are moved forward to eject and rearward over a new round and onto the 'bolt', closing the breech for the following shot. Neat.
I imagine the feed system was a front sprocket to engage the belt attached to a zig-zag-slotted cylinder like in a Webley-Fosberry or a Pancor Jackhammer operated by the bolt's pin. Would probably wind up rather expensive, though.
what a forgotten weapon! some guy in ww2 creating guns on his own, never adopted and barely recorded. Thanks Ian and those guys at Malta for letting the rest of the world know about this almost lost slice of history
Perhaps some day you should do a video on the V-3 staged accelerated cannon which he designed. It used solid fuel rocket motors to accelerate a 150mm finned saboted projectile to ranges of over 100 kilometers.
I like the recoil damper in the bolt, very clever. Moves the mass of that from the stock to the bolt (which needs to be heavy anyway) thus making the gun lighter.
Ha! Best video ever. Was looking at the library behind you and noticed the soviet small arms and ammunition book. Paused the video, found book on web at Canadian book seller and purchased. Interesting video, cool book added my book shelf, win win. Thanks!
Make you wonder why there is no belt fed shotgun. We need one of this Maybe turn a M2 Browning into shotgun-machinegun, like what they did in Metro 2033.
You can use this firearm in the game Enlisted if you grind out a gold order for it or pay a bit of money. Pretty dang fun. I loaded a squad with 4 of them.
Not the question I am asking. Did Aberdeen clean out their reference collection? Was it surplussed? Did this happen once in history or was it an on-going process every so often? It's hard to get the GOV to give up anything. That's gotta be a story in itself.
Could the original mechanism be like a Webley-Fosbery? The stud on the bolt interacting with a cam track, driving a sprocket? Whatever it was, it was clearly over engineered and complex
Fascinating idea for a sustained fire pistol caliber machine gun, certainly adequate for vehicle defense, as Ian pointed out, also interesting is the allied attempt to complete partial designed weapons based on their knowledge of similar systems! The theft of the belt begs the intrigue of does another one or similar design exist somewhere? Given that that sort of theft was likely commissioned, stolen to order...
@@rcbif101 True. I just guessed a weapon in 9x19 would be more controllable with 1500 rpm than a weapon chambered for lets say 8mm mauser or any other full power rifle cartridge with the same rof.
I can see this being used as a really light close support weapon like the ZK-383 (smg with a bipod.) A belt-fed is going to have more of an emphasis on area suppression than pin-point accuracy, infantry combat is only going to take place 300m and in, more often than not inside 200m. I can see this being used in Stalingrad. Throw a bipod and a foregrip on it and you're in good shape.
No, it's German, so obviously the missing top cover has a slide mount for an overly complicated optics system, while the barrel originally had a Lafette adapter and a slot for an anti-aircraft sight...
What would they even be testing at Aberdeen? Is there a reason to test a blowback 9mm, belt-fed or not, especially given that the novel top cover was missing?
I was wondering that too. As you say the only thing that could been interesting about the gun would have been the feed mechanism., and they had to make that themselves. Someone did a nice job on it though. Possibly they were thinking that if they make it work and try it out, it may become obvious what it could be used for. It's also possible that they had people hanging around looking for things to work on.
They found a 9mm SMG being developed in a country with several better, established weapons of that category in current production. Doesn't that hint that there may be some non-obvious advantage to this design?
The idea is the same premise that led to the aircooled Browning 1919 a aircooled belt fed machine gun for firing from a tanks ports with a maximum required range of about 100to200yrds! Only this thing would weight alot less than a 1919!
About the possible use in armored vehicles, the Finns did make a tank version on Suomi sub machine gun, kp 31 Tankki. (sub machine gun 31 "tank") It filled the possible role of this gun.
Hay Ian, over at Tank Archives a guy brought up a interesting topic that I thought was right up your ally. The issue of red and green tracers for NATO and Soviets. Popular games use this and I've read accounts from Vietnam of guys saying they were fired upon by green tracers. What's the truth about tracer colors?
William Sager Germans and Soviets both used green tracers. Soviets used red and other colors too. Japanese tracers were blue. Americans started using 15 or 20 white tracers at the end of 50 cal links in p51s to warn pilots when they were low on ammo. german interrogators, who were probably the best in the world at the time, figured this out via interviewing pilot POWs. That's all I really know...
NATO and the US military in other theaters use Red Tracers. Usually 1 in 5 is a tracer. North Korea used to use to use green tracers. Although that could have changed. During WW2 in the Pacific theater after a certain point tracers were removed from the belts of Aircraft guns because tracers and ball ammunition have different ballistics. At long range if the tracers are hitting, the ball ammunition is missing. Air to air combat kills went up.
After watching this, I really, *REALLY* want to see a scaled down MG 42, for the 9 mm, like those videos of that mini Browning MG firing .22's. Complete with a quick change barrel and full 1200 rounds a minute. The stage is set, I have pissed a puddle on the ground. Your move, american gunsmiths!
That stock would only get in the way in a vehicle setup. Am not sure that was the application the designer was thinking of. More likely it was intended as a light machine gun for a squad in close combat. Am just guessing. I wonder what the original belt looked like. Could it even have been cloth I wonder.
Very Cool Sub-machine gun. I didn't know there was an belt feed Sub-machine made. Another awesome firearm review and have a Happy Halloween to all the Forgotten weapons family.
I'm just really impressed how nice that top cover looks...and perplexed that Aberdeen bothered to supply seemingly the most interesting part of the gun themselves and then test it, for some reason.
This is a really neat little weapon. . . .seems like a lot of his stuff was very 'function over form'. I can imagine that with his attitude he was constantly arguing with someone. :P Thanks again, Ian, for all that you do.
Joh another great video about a forgotten weapon, but...you are really butchering the name mate 😉 Coenders is a Dutch name, so prepare for our fowels. Its pronounced koen-ders, not co-anders. The 'oe' is one sound, like the call of an owl, 'oeh-hoe, oeh-hoe'. For advanced lessons, now try to pronounce the name of an owl character from an childrensbook: oehroeboeroe 😁
I love how Aberdeen went to all this trouble to test this thing and build a new top cover and barrel from scratch. Could definitely see it being used in a Sd.Kfz.222 or some other armored car variant.
I really enjoy Forgotten Weapons. I think Ian really strikes a perfect balance of entertainment and information. But I think one of the best parts of the videos, is that he is not really political, beyond historical context. I'm not really a gun person, but I can enjoy learning about these machines, and Ian really makes it easy to do so.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
I can see why the German military didn't trust the designer: the original parts of the gun are way too simple for any self respecting German to use.
it was too simple to be perfect, we need to over-engineer it first
Maybe it's just a part of a more complicated machine, like acoffee grinder, or something.
And it doesn't catch on fire after being transported 50km.
What are you talking about MP38/40 were the models of simplicity.
. . . . . marvellous marvellous!!
I am a German and i must laughing!!!
I mean it how i say, realy marvellous!!
'Haha I stole a belt for a prototype machine gun, just a shame the only person I can try to sell it to is the original owner'
and that owner happens to be the person I stole it from!
Huh, so I guess Malta has a Methhead problem too.
@@ironhead2008
probably sold it for scrap
@@ARF_average sad..
Surprised the owner hasn't hired a machinist to make a replica belt. They have all the Aberdeen photo's to go off of. Guess they never intend for it to be shot.
Really I don't consider a feed belt a crucial 'original part'. A belt's a belt is a belt if you ask me. And this gun has all the parts that matter.
Well, aside from the long lost top and barrel.
-SMGs are good because we can make them really cheap and simple
-Okay, ill make it belt fed then, im German, thats the most simple thing i can imagine!
complicated is just another word for german
In USSR was similar project for belt-fed LMG in 7,62*25. For SAW-like use. It had 200-300-round belts. Gunner can cerry at liest 600 rounds in belts.
P.S. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAD_machine_gun
I recall a lot of early tanks with either excessive number of real machine guns, or a shortage of guns and just pistol ports. This type of firearm would of helped fill the gap.
It makes sense if this was, like Ian said, a point defense weapons meant for vehicles. No need for magazines if the weapons are not meant to move from position.
When i think i know everything about WW2 German weapons, Ian always seems to teach us something new.
Theres always more!
Agreed- I’ve never even heard of this one till now. It’s what makes this channel so interesting- the gun and the story behind it.
At least they will expend less ammo with the 9mm rather than the 7.92 :/
Chernobyl they had lights in their tanks in ww1 that’s pretty advanced for its time
Bring the belt back! Just drop it off somewhere. We just want the belt, not the thief.
Just mail it back, with no return postage, I don't think the collector will question it too hard.
Hell I'm pretty sure there's enough people here who would trade the stolen belt for a generic belt with no questions asked, just to recover the unique historical artefact.
Just mail it to Jeremy Paxman. It worked for that Enigma machine.
@@neilwilson5785 I had totally forgotten about that! But yeah, sometimes the recovery of the item is far far more important than any potential punishment....
That or just make someone do a repro. They have pictures, all they need is measurements.
A fully automatic belt-fed firearm that uses inexpensive ammunition? The question isn't "why would you want a gun like this" but rather "why WOULDN'T would you want a gun like this"
Underrated concept, a pistol caliber LMG.
I want my 22LR machine gun now.
@@Patrick-857 "Swarm of angry bees"
@@Patrick-857 imagine if someone fully worked the project out, and made a belt fed PCMG that was capable of several thousand rounds per minute. You'd need one hell of a gas port.
To play devil's advocate, it would suggest removing what makes a submachine gun/pistol/pdf so wonderful, which is the low weight and high maneuverability. As Ian mentioned, it could be a great weapon for a vehicle, especially ones for scouting. With that said, now you have to decide is it worth making a weapon with such a niche value? Yes, this would be perfect for a jeep but we can already put a browning on a jeep so why bother? Belt fed smgs actually came about during WW1 as a solution to clearing trenches more effectively. Now that it's WW2 and wonderful smgs like the PPSH are coming out, why bother? To me, this is one of those beautiful experiments that was made to solve an issue that would soon become obsolete. Yes, the Sega Dreamcast is very cool, it can clear trenches better than a shotgun or any other rifle but it came out a month after WW1 ended and now it's WW2 and we have Playstation 2s and Xboxes.
Every other country “let’s make smgs mag fed, it’ll be cheaper to produce and easier to use in the field”
Germany “IT SHALL BE BELT FED HANZ!!!”
Can I see the Uzi in this gun? Looks like the Uzi was not that original after all!
@@Ofelas1 if he made it a grip magazine it could have been huge
@@soupbowl-jg6zb wrong group of people on the wrong channel to complain about political correctness
looks like something made in metro 2033.
Or stalker, 😂
More like Fallout, but Metro is also a good reference.
@@markosofranic3905 I mean, it looks more similar to the Bastard than the pipe guns from Fallout.
It'd be so cool to find something like this in the new metro exodus game, maybe a belt feed mod for the bastard that replaces the feed strip
4:25 looks like something straight out of a original star wars film
2:50 "This 9mm Thing" Seems like the best description of this SMG.
Does anybody else watch these videos as much for the history lesson rather than just the weapon breakdown?
Yep, that and the often present insight into mechanical design and engineering choices
I'm here mainly for the history. To me, the breakdown is a nice bonus. And interesting from an engineering perspective
Ian is such an articulate communicator. Glad he expanded to the historical site visits.
I watch it for Ian, he is so knowledgable and secure of his own knowledge that irradiates security while speaking, while never being pedantic.
yeah a lot of the breakdown stuff goes over my head but i love the stories of men with interesting ideas that just dont quite work out
Had it been designed earlier I could see it as trench raiding sort of weapon. One could imagine 50-100 rounds in a belt and few of these in a squad. Just might be effective.
at less than 100 meters with no body armour, I would not want to be standing in front of it 9mm spraying everywhere that's a scary idea. people always underestimate the danger of pistol cal ammo.
A belt-fed gun is not ideal for an assaulter, you are not very mobile with a belt around your body. But a drum magazine version might works, like a PPSH very good for room clearing.
@@macobuziWW1 tactics with belt fed weapons like this were that one or two persons carry the ammo and one person the gun.
I think a version of this in 8mm Kurtz would be interesting since it would retain much of the compactness while having a bit more power
looks like we found the guy who stole the belt. he disliked this video.
Braught his two buddies to dislike as well.
Why would you steal the belt of a gun that only one was made? What use would you have for it, its probably not even expensive
And six pranksters from 4Chan who didn't even watch the video.
@@mihalytorley5480 probably to just be glad to have the only copy as a collection item
who steals a gun's ammo belt but not the gun itself? did he smack his head into the glass to get it and had some lasting damage from that?
Prolly someone just lost it and claimed it was stolen.
Crooks aren't too awful bright 😁
@@nunyabizness199 unless they're caught
And I'm betting a one of a kind ww2 collectors item would be desired by collectors
And I'm betting that's where it is right now
Interestingly enough Soviets designed a functionally similar gun in 1942-43 in 7,62x25 mm TT pistol caliber. It was called LAD and wasn't designed for vehicle mounts but as 'proper' infantry light machine gun. Allegedly it was effective up to 400 meters and was supposed to give PPSh/PPS armed units more firepower at longer ranges without sacrificing close range and mobility. But the gun wasn't adopted into service obviously.
Yeah. And here is some related pictures:
www.kalashnikov.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ulanov-3.jpg
www.kalashnikov.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ulanov-5.jpg
Mmh i wonder how usefuld this would be
@@junichiroyamashita it would be something like M249 with a weaker round, a WW2 SAW.
@@CruelDwarf yes,so lighter and easier to control
@@junichiroyamashita The irony is that it most likely would have been in combat service.
But when (summer 1943) the Soviet troops captured one MKb42(H)...with 4 catrigdes lol...
"We must started to develop our, soviet guns for intermediate cartridges " was became a priority of the work. And all this things with developing the MG's with a pistol cartridge was stopped.
I can't believe there is one still in existence (I formerly knew it under the name 'Erma Gurt 44' from an old youtube vid and the gun wikia entry).
Thanks Ian
I also could see uses for paratroopers, a lightweight machinegun can offer some tactical advantage.
Exactly. A shock weapon with good ammo supply. None of that switching magazines thing in the middle of a fight.
In concept, it's not actually a bad idea. I've always wondered why something like this didn't turn up during the First World War. If you know that a 9mm is lethal to at least 400 or 500 meters, if perhaps not particularly accurate, and you want to harass the crap out of an enemy position, it'd be way easier to set up a belt fed 9mm and continually suppress an enemy trench or strongpoint. If a round did hit home, it'd still have the potential to kill or wound, but on the other end, the gun would be man portable, and the ammo would be easier to transport, and cheaper to manufacture (from a materials point of view). If you've got to haul 10,000 rounds for a machinegun from the rear, up support trenches through enemy fire, to the front line, that's only a couple of trips with 9mm versus maybe 10 trips for belted 8mm. Something like this could also be carried forward in an assault, with sufficient ammo, to mount a point blank defense of a captured enemy position. No, it won't harass enemy formations or crossroads at 4000m distance, but it's still viable at short and intermediate ranges.
I agree with you, this makes sense in an urban warfare situation for Volkssturm units, as a support weapon. Looking at the picture of the original prototype, we can see that it is meant to be carried, not fixed inside a vehicle, and it fits to the standards of Volkssturm weapons (as described in the book "Desperate Measures" by W. Darrin Weaver) : use of simple materials (tubes, no extrusion), fewparts, economical (if crude) manufacture.
Actually, there was, kinda
It was a side by side, 2 gun, worn on the chest/abdomen via a neckstrap.
Earlier Calico style weapon. Totally awesome.
That's basically what the Villar-Perosa was meant to do when they adapted it for ground troops. The main thing is, during the first world war there were many feeding systems still in use, and belt feed was actually not entirely the norm. That combined with that many of the more ingenious designs in the war were weapons that were developed prior to the outbreak of war, that were later adopted by the military mid conflict once they saw their usefulness (like the Lewis gun). R&D is expensive enough that generally, if you were in charge it made more sense to make/buy more guns then waste money developing new designs. Submachine guns are a rare example of a weapon type that ended up being developed in the midst of the war, as prior to the outbreak of war the prevailing sentiment was that engagements would be all at long range, and require accurate, slower fire. You see that with all the powerful, long range guns everyone had going in to the conflict. They're all basically built for sniping, but without optics. If you were planning on developing a gun to sell to the military, it would probably be a waste of time to try and make a pistol calibur automatic. They wouldn't have bought it. While in the middle of world war 1, they didn't really have the time resources to develop a gun like that. It took till basically the last 2 months of the war for SMGS to even be fielded, and they barely made it in.
TLDR It might have been a great concept, but it's a hard sell to the military so it's not surprising we dont hear of anyone developing something like that, or if they did they probably couldnt sell it and lost money in the endeavor.
Hey so how many pre-fixes do you want the gun to have?
"Yeah i'd like a few. Maybe uhhh.. make it a machine gun!"
Any specifications?
"A light machine gun! Which is belt-fed!"
That's pretty standard sir..
"Well then make it a bullpup too!"
Now we're talking!
The type of gun that any trooper has in a modern ""WW2"" FPS.
Because: " _It existed at the time, so it is not inaccurate_ "
TugaAvenger The only difference is that this gun still exists and the Hellriegel is only present in pictures.
I don't get why some people are so upset by BF1 and BFV. I just think of them as alternate history, because unlike many inaccurate historical films such as Braveheart, those games never claim to be based on true story.
@@coolsenjoyer Well, when they try to say the games are accurate to history...
@@zelpyzelp What, you mean DICE and EA trying to say Battlefield games are historically accurate? Where have they ever done that?
EA/Dice said that they were trying to create a documentary about the era while also taking creative liberties... which defeats the purpose of 'documenting' it.
It'd be like telling kids that 9/11 was committed by space aliens to 'make it more fun' for them to learn about.
Honestly doesn't seem like a terrible idea for a smaller port-firing point defense weapon. I'd imagine any benefits wouldn't warrant mass production or adoption, but I could see that use making sense.
It seems good for the time, all they needed was a sort of hard clip like some machineguns were issued and it would have been a fine and usable weapon
but at the same time you're loosing a lot of the benefits of a mounted gun in that you can fire a heavier round and not care because there's no recoil and that heavier round can do more than just anti personnel
@@DumbArse what?
Submarines
Great for urban or fortress defense, where you expect short ranges and need compactness but are interested in sustained fire.
The cylindrical part on the original gun seems most likely to be a revolving feed mechanism. Much like on the Schwarzlose MG 7/12 or like on the soviet Shkas from WWII.
The smaller cylindrical part on top then would contain a shaft to move the feeder, with the shaft being activated by a studd running in a helical groove.
That would make for a really high rate of fire, or at least the potential for one.
The ShKAS could run at up to 3000 RPM...
I can see this being very useful for the urban combat common in Europe during WWII. It would much easier to shoot and scoot with this than with an MG-42, and 9MM would be sufficent at those ranges.
I thought it was a Baby MG-42 from the Thumbnail
Now I have the image of Ian cradling that MG and feeding it from baby bottle. Gun oil.
Taistelukalkkuna Also he has the gun Jesus outfit and is healing the gun and forgiving it's sins.
In the Aberdeen rebuilt configuration, it basically is. I love it.
When a daddy MG42 and a mommy MG42 love each other very much...
Tricked by Aberdeen
The Aberdeen engineers seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to get a very obscure gun in condition to test it!
Why not haha?
A lot of trouble was basically what they did then. After WWII everyone, America, Russia, France etc. wanted to make sure they got as much of the Research funded by the NAZI war machine as possible. Mostly the Allies had spent the War years on the back foot when it came to technology and it was only when the manufacturing capabilities of the US took the pressure off the issue of replacing lost materials they could move from "Must have" to "We'd kinda like" when it came to weapons and munitions. The iconic Spitfire is a good example, there simply weren't the facilities and the materials to make enough of them quickly so the Hurricane, which was designed to be made more quickly and far less expensively, bore the brunt of the fighting.
@@cptreech The British were producing like 400 fighters per month during the Battle of Britain where as the Luftwaffe was only producing about 170 ME109 per month.
@@cptreech Your example of the spitfire is not apt at all.
The reason the Hurricane was used more widely is that it was adopted for service earlier and so was tooled up faster, many Spitfires used during the Battle of Britain had been privately purchased.
During the battle of britain Hurricanes where delegated to attack bomber formations to allow the Spitfires to engage any fighter escorts
@@bengrogan9710
The Spitfires engaging the 109s is what allowed the slow and sluggish but much faster to produce Hurricane to engage the bombers. Without the Spitfires NATZI losses would have been negligible leading to badness things.
Besides a firing port weapon, i could see this used as a specialist house-clearing/house to house fighting weapon. Stopping to reload is a dangerous thing, and if you have a 250 round belt you can go through several rooms without reloading. Just a thought.
A different approach would be 50 to 75 round, disintegrating link belt. Simpler to mfg. and smaller than a drum and does not protrude like a high capacity stick.
@@hrentr Yeah, that would work if you have the manufacturing capacity to spare, but this was towards the end so i´m sure a re-usable belt would have looked more enticing.
I was thinking of not having a long tail flopping around in close quarters.
@@hrentr Makes sense, could have it disconnect every 50 rounds like the belts of today perhaps?
Good night fighting gun for infrared equipped troops
I'm working on some video game design stuff and we wanted an alternate-world weapon, and I told the artist I wanted an ugly submachine gun. Like truly fugly: a uncomfortable looking grip, a muffler for a barrel shroud and a boot for a stock.
He linked me this video with no further context.
We're adapting this to our game. Mag-fed, though, we're not madmen.
which game? Is it on steam? I have loads of ugly gun design pictures and a lot of cursed guns pics.
But this gun looks cool enough to me. Some games already implemented this gun, like in Enlisted.
Ian, I was just in a massive fight with my mother. And on the verge of tears. And I dont know how or why but your videos always calm me down so well. And make me feel so.much better. You have no idea how.much you help.people. even when you don't mean to do anything more than educate us, you end up helping us all.
Thank you for doing what you do.
-a friend
For when you want an MP40 with the capacity of an MG42 for clearing rooms.
Exactly. For close quarters and a good ammo supply. Like was needed in Germany at the end. The fools.
This would be a really neat piece of kit for fortress or urban defense. Sustained shoulder or hipfire in a pistol cartridge, down a hallway or sidestreet could be devastating.
a slightly more complicated grease gun that looks like a baby 42
I mean, its like any similar small sized firearm with a large ammo feed design (e.g. modern m4 carbines with drum mags). More full auto power, with lightness and mobility to be used easily in cqb style warfare. This would probably be pretty good at clearing buildings. And i can see the point defense style mountings making sense. If your just gonna be shooting to the end of the street, and want fast fire and small size, this would be pretty useful
A Dwarf Rambo gun ...
@Marcus Bralic The MIKROMI.
The original one in the picture looks like something they would have used for a prop in Star Wars.
Happiness is a belt-fed 9mm. 🤘
So much happiness the you would only steal the belt
@@bananawhisperer6929 I wish they could at least find a scrap of the original belt. For posterity you know.
Brrrt, brrrt
"This 9 millimeter...thing" basically sums up this gun
The only firearms channel that's worth seeing all its content. Explanations are invariably clear and concise and very nicely illustrated on camera.
Not easy to imagine how this formula could be improved... nice work, Sir!
I gotta say, that gun is a great find, and it would be interesting to see how it would have preformed as a bowgun. I suspect the original sights flipped up so that the gun could be used effectively if taken with the tank crew if they needed to bail out and have a self defense weapon. Prehaps having a shorter, lighter gun that could more easily fit through tank hatches, and effectively replace both LMG based bowguns and the SMG frequently issued to tankers was the imputus for development? I suppose it would also have meant that if the rest of the crew carried MP-40s or something you could have standardized on 9mm ammo for everyone too, but that would suggest that going belt fed probably wasn’t a good idea if that was the goal...
the feature I like about this gun is that the buffer assembly is a part of the bolt which saves weight but still add mass to the bolt
On the subject of firing port weapons, it's interesting to note that the German Army developed a version of the Uzi for use as a firing port weapon in their Marder MICVs.
The story of this guy hiding after the war for not achieving anything is as funky as the gun itself.
Suomi SMGs were manufactured in tank and dugout/bunker variants. Basically the same idea, only fed by drum magazine.
That 'last ditch rifle' looks pretty interesting, It appears to be a fixed bolt action, where the barrel and chamber are moved forward to eject and rearward over a new round and onto the 'bolt', closing the breech for the following shot. Neat.
If Aberdeen is having a garage sale, I've got my eye on a low mileage MkVI that was only driven to church and back, a real creampuff...
This thing is fantastic in Enlisted.
I imagine the feed system was a front sprocket to engage the belt attached to a zig-zag-slotted cylinder like in a Webley-Fosberry or a Pancor Jackhammer operated by the bolt's pin. Would probably wind up rather expensive, though.
I love the obscure weapons you feature. I do 3d modeling as a hobby so it's great when I have something unique to look at an use for inspiration.
My question is how did that go from Germany to America to Malta?
You know how the Maltese can be.
what a forgotten weapon! some guy in ww2 creating guns on his own, never adopted and barely recorded. Thanks Ian and those guys at Malta for letting the rest of the world know about this almost lost slice of history
I'd like to know how it got from the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland back to Malta. It seems to be in the hands of a private collector now.
I know, the most important part of the story wasn't told.
It's a thing of beauty. Now I want this miniaturized, .22 cb cap belt fed machine guns are the way of the future!
Perhaps some day you should do a video on the V-3 staged accelerated cannon which he designed. It used solid fuel rocket motors to accelerate a 150mm finned saboted projectile to ranges of over 100 kilometers.
I like the recoil damper in the bolt, very clever. Moves the mass of that from the stock to the bolt (which needs to be heavy anyway) thus making the gun lighter.
Belt-fed bullpup SMG? Hmmm...
neodoc1976 Must be german.
Like a orgy with MG-42 , STEN and Sa vz.23
+neodoc1976 The bolt meets up with the barrel in front of where the trigger is, so I don't think it can be considered a bullpup.
Feed system is in front of the trigger
Never seen one of these before. Wow thank you Ian.
Wee-haaa! Eyes a remnant of some fence piping, a lump of round barstock, and starts unpiling stuff off the lathe...
Ha! Best video ever. Was looking at the library behind you and noticed the soviet small arms and ammunition book. Paused the video, found book on web at Canadian book seller and purchased. Interesting video, cool book added my book shelf, win win. Thanks!
It's an excellent book.
Make you wonder why there is no belt fed shotgun. We need one of this
Maybe turn a M2 Browning into shotgun-machinegun, like what they did in Metro 2033.
There was a video on youtube years ago where someone made a belt fed 12 Gauge upper receiver for an AR15. I believe it was entirely home/shop made.
That was a Dyshka turned into auto shotgun Im pretty sure, still never used it in that game, pure garbage Id say.
@@reanukeeves4436 That gun is pretty good actually, especially when dozen of mutant running toward you.
@@crocholiday409 That gun looks badass, it just like a scale down auto cannon
There was a video about a belt-fed shotgun. The thing is...it had a LOT OF STOPPAGES....probably, because of the short casings
You can use this firearm in the game Enlisted if you grind out a gold order for it or pay a bit of money. Pretty dang fun. I loaded a squad with 4 of them.
How did this end up in Malta?
william sullivan a Maltese collector bought it.
@@flatsurfaces1913 Well, that was anti-climactic, but likely the whole story.
How did this leave the hands of the US Arsenal that tested it?
@@John1911 money changed hands...
Not the question I am asking. Did Aberdeen clean out their reference collection? Was it surplussed? Did this happen once in history or was it an on-going process every so often? It's hard to get the GOV to give up anything. That's gotta be a story in itself.
They put this thing in enlisted let's go
At first I thougth it was something experimental for Paratrooters or Mountaintroops as some sort of an ultra LMG.
10:25
I love how it's pretty much a threaded pipe.
Could the original mechanism be like a Webley-Fosbery? The stud on the bolt interacting with a cam track, driving a sprocket? Whatever it was, it was clearly over engineered and complex
Fascinating idea for a sustained fire pistol caliber machine gun, certainly adequate for vehicle defense, as Ian pointed out, also interesting is the allied attempt to complete partial designed weapons based on their knowledge of similar systems! The theft of the belt begs the intrigue of does another one or similar design exist somewhere? Given that that sort of theft was likely commissioned, stolen to order...
What about a side car machine gun for a motor cycle?
What a cool mini machine gun! Uses less but looks like so much fun. Quite beautiful too especially in the original photo. Want one. Now!!!
Maybe he went with 9x19 to have a gun with a very high rate of fire...
Caliber has nothing to do with rate of fire.
@@rcbif101 True. I just guessed a weapon in 9x19 would be more controllable with 1500 rpm than a weapon chambered for lets say 8mm mauser or any other full power rifle cartridge with the same rof.
I can see this being used as a really light close support weapon like the ZK-383 (smg with a bipod.)
A belt-fed is going to have more of an emphasis on area suppression than pin-point accuracy, infantry combat is only going to take place 300m and in, more often than not inside 200m. I can see this being used in Stalingrad. Throw a bipod and a foregrip on it and you're in good shape.
What i would expect the first full-auto built by Martian colonists to look like
Sounds like passionate if not hot-headed man. Sensitive about his work
Does it have a bayonet attachment?
@yasya 1991 r\whoosh
Maybe the blade was horizontal, so if you're out of ammo you'd swing it in the port from side to side.
No, it's German, so obviously the missing top cover has a slide mount for an overly complicated optics system, while the barrel originally had a Lafette adapter and a slot for an anti-aircraft sight...
Alex Vogel that would be freaking crazy to shoot down a plane with a 9 mm. I could see that happening!
@yasya 1991 no we're is the m203 grenade launcher. Maybe a gp 25 launcher if you like that
That looks like alot of fun. Even a semiauto version would make for a grand time at the range. Shame no one will ever make a commercial one.
What would they even be testing at Aberdeen? Is there a reason to test a blowback 9mm, belt-fed or not, especially given that the novel top cover was missing?
I was wondering that too. As you say the only thing that could been interesting about the gun would have been the feed mechanism., and they had to make that themselves. Someone did a nice job on it though. Possibly they were thinking that if they make it work and try it out, it may become obvious what it could be used for. It's also possible that they had people hanging around looking for things to work on.
They found a 9mm SMG being developed in a country with several better, established weapons of that category in current production. Doesn't that hint that there may be some non-obvious advantage to this design?
Why not? They get to have fun, and can say they kept it for a purpose
The idea is the same premise that led to the aircooled Browning 1919 a aircooled belt fed machine gun for firing from a tanks ports with a maximum required range of about 100to200yrds!
Only this thing would weight alot less than a 1919!
Because that's what they do at Aberdeen, test weapons, not just US made but any they can get their hands on.
About the possible use in armored vehicles, the Finns did make a tank version on Suomi sub machine gun, kp 31 Tankki. (sub machine gun 31 "tank") It filled the possible role of this gun.
Hay Ian, over at Tank Archives a guy brought up a interesting topic that I thought was right up your ally. The issue of red and green tracers for NATO and Soviets. Popular games use this and I've read accounts from Vietnam of guys saying they were fired upon by green tracers. What's the truth about tracer colors?
William Sager Germans and Soviets both used green tracers. Soviets used red and other colors too. Japanese tracers were blue. Americans started using 15 or 20 white tracers at the end of 50 cal links in p51s to warn pilots when they were low on ammo. german interrogators, who were probably the best in the world at the time, figured this out via interviewing pilot POWs. That's all I really know...
NATO and the US military in other theaters use Red Tracers. Usually 1 in 5 is a tracer.
North Korea used to use to use green tracers. Although that could have changed.
During WW2 in the Pacific theater after a certain point tracers were removed from the belts of Aircraft guns because tracers and ball ammunition have different ballistics. At long range if the tracers are hitting, the ball ammunition is missing.
Air to air combat kills went up.
After watching this, I really, *REALLY* want to see a scaled down MG 42, for the 9 mm, like those videos of that mini Browning MG firing .22's.
Complete with a quick change barrel and full 1200 rounds a minute.
The stage is set, I have pissed a puddle on the ground.
Your move, american gunsmiths!
Any idea how it ended up traveling to Malta from APG?
That stock would only get in the way in a vehicle setup. Am not sure that was the application the designer was thinking of. More likely it was intended as a light machine gun for a squad in close combat. Am just guessing. I wonder what the original belt looked like. Could it even have been cloth I wonder.
When you combine the MG-42 with a p90
Very Cool Sub-machine gun. I didn't know there was an belt feed Sub-machine made. Another awesome firearm review and have a Happy Halloween to all the Forgotten weapons family.
Flash ah ah savior of the Universe gun. Like someone below said, just when I think I've seen it all...
Thanks for sharing this unique piece of history and to the collector for allowing this to happen!
3:33 - tnx not cabin in the woods
This is a realy forgotten Gun...... thank you from Bavaria!
Its a pistol caliber carbine :D
Only belt fed with the belt missing :DD
Isn't it a submachine gun instead?could it be a new weapon category??
I'm just really impressed how nice that top cover looks...and perplexed that Aberdeen bothered to supply seemingly the most interesting part of the gun themselves and then test it, for some reason.
got a front row sit!
This is a really neat little weapon. . . .seems like a lot of his stuff was very 'function over form'. I can imagine that with his attitude he was constantly arguing with someone. :P Thanks again, Ian, for all that you do.
The whole thing appears incredibly utilitarian, but that trigger looks... just awful.
Like a cheap water pistol's
That "last ditch rifle" he made looks pretty cool
Joh another great video about a forgotten weapon, but...you are really butchering the name mate 😉 Coenders is a Dutch name, so prepare for our fowels. Its pronounced koen-ders, not co-anders. The 'oe' is one sound, like the call of an owl, 'oeh-hoe, oeh-hoe'. For advanced lessons, now try to pronounce the name of an owl character from an childrensbook: oehroeboeroe 😁
So in English, it's pronounced as Coonders. Like moon and spoon etc.
Hummm yes, that would be best, or at least much better. Dastardly English, making language simpler losing sounds and fowels..
Thank you Ian .
I have a feeling that the large cylinder on the original top cover held a small ammo belt. Like the MG-42's assault drum, but integrated.
And I bet Ian needed a led apron during his entire interaction with this fascinating squirt gun looking Frankenstein thing.
This gun is an absolutely fantastic star wars prop, hell it's just a really cool gun in general
Fascinating. Thank you for sharing. Also thanks the AMACS.
I love how Aberdeen went to all this trouble to test this thing and build a new top cover and barrel from scratch. Could definitely see it being used in a Sd.Kfz.222 or some other armored car variant.
Very interested gun! It has in Enlisted!!!
Youre such a cool guy Ian.
Glad I found your channel. Absolutely love it & Have watched Almost all of your videos lol
Cheers mate!
I really enjoy Forgotten Weapons. I think Ian really strikes a perfect balance of entertainment and information. But I think one of the best parts of the videos, is that he is not really political, beyond historical context. I'm not really a gun person, but I can enjoy learning about these machines, and Ian really makes it easy to do so.