I may be mistaken (as most of my knowledge on the subject comes from an old Brandon Herrera video), but it should be trivial for Mark to register his lathe as machine gun because he's an SOT, he basically just has to inform the ATF that he's done so. I suspect that what's stopping him doing it is that it might cause problems if he then wants to use the lathe as a lathe.
Drill the chambers a little closer to the edge. Use a ridged block to act as the firing pin. As the cylinder rotates, it hits the block and sets off the round. You can rotate the cylinder at what ever speed you want. If it is difficult to set off the rounds without tearing the brass, replace the block with a wheel firing pins on it, geared off the cylinder.
If you really wanted to do this legally! You could use black powder with caps! to actually fire projectiles! funny enough knew exactly what was going on with the rapid speed movements lol This can't be any worse then are full auto bb gun on a Kuka KR 60-3 CNC robotic arm project at work lol! Some things just need to be done a $25,000 cnc robot you know what I mean lol? Did mention when your really bored they make awesome park rides?
Wonder if a simple roller bearing would be enough? Mill a step out along the circumference so the rim of the case is sticking out and just run the roller along the edge. Rounds per minute is just how fast the chuck spins.
@@dangerrangerlstc I think it would be - you’re just making a crimping press that is set up to crimp on a different plane. The lack of fixed position dies is obviated by the massive amount of rigidity you have in that machine.
@@RagingShrimp67 he should machine a machine gun on his machine gun, or make a machine gun making machine gun with the machine gun machine gun maker I probably have to register this comment with the feds and pay a tax stamp on it
@@jic1 It'd actually be rather brilliant. Make the AFT either go a bridge too far and say that lathes are machine guns, suddenly getting every machine shop in the union personally involved, or say that things aren't machine guns just because they conform to their definition of a machine gun. They have no right answer.
This is so stupid and clever at the same time, I love it. You could maybe put rubber washers in between where the shoulders of the blanks meet the firing chamber, lifting them slightly higher out of it, then keep the program the same. That way the PID won't have slowed down the punch tip too much as the strike happens, and the rubber will allow some compression so it doesn't break something by having too long a stroke for the space.
Spring loaded center punch would’ve been a great option, doesn’t matter the speed at which the punch feeds, just have to adjust the stopping point of the punch and let the punch do it’s job as a firing pin
Love this! Have you ever looked at an Remington-Elliot ring derringer In 22lr? 5 barrels drilled in one piece of steel with a mechanism that rotates the firing pin to each barrel… the barrel does not turn. Very clever. I can appreciate the machining on that one and your 12 barrel.
That was also the action on the colt "defender" 8 barreled shotgun, i believe. Or i might be remembering the design of one of the 4 barrel liberator shotguns we made to give to freedom fighters.
The issue with a spring loaded punch is that the punch needs to be cocked. On a Starrett punch, the cocking depth is over .350". If the chamber has a bottom and a 90 degree vent hole, IMO it no longer has the ability to expel a projectile. It's the readily convertible section that gets you.
I can't recall the name but a guy did exactly that with a sten like gun that had no trigger and was set up to slamfire and pretty much runaway in full auto. One just loaded and inserted the magazine home and then just pulled back and let the bolt fly and the gun would empty itself. Since there wasn't a provision to control when the bolt releases, it truly had no trigger. The ATF caught on and they obviously aren't around any more.
Define trigger! You can't have a gun without a trigger, or it would fire the ammo as soon as it was loaded. In this case, the trigger was a button on the machine.
For those interested in my previous post, it was called the "Sputter Gun" by William H. York. None were sold apparently. Neat bit of a "forgotten weapon" 😉.
As said poor engineering student I really appreciate these connections between book/lecture and something far more interesting. Also you occasionally say something that I comprehend and it’s a pleasant surprise, like hearing a foreign language and catching part of a sentence. Thank you for putting out interesting content, a lot of us at Riddle like your work.
You could have a firing pin for each hole on the diameter of a disk and have that disk rock in a circular motion on a central pivot point. Have a rolling arm that pushes the depth of travel on the back end of the disk at one side of its outer edge so one firing pin engages at a time as the barle assembly rotates. Than the fiering sequence happens at the speed of rotation. You can also use rocking arms so that the firing disk rotates in line with the cartridge assembly.
run a negative offset so you smash that primer! also why didnt you do like a gear that rolls with the spindle to get them to fire at the speed of rotation?
Spring loaded punch with a slight over travel would be my first idea to make it more reliable on the firing but would have to adjust timing and program depending on what you have available.
Would putting in a little striker into the cap, either over each hole or on a spinning arm that is times to stop in each position, make it work from throwing that mass forward with no deceleration?
could have cheated by rigging 12 pins up to hit the primers all at the same time making it a multi-shot gun and since it's not a machine gun it's now youtube friendly
@@theazuzhaters9988 No it wouldn’t. There’s a pistol made by some company that fires two rounds with one pull of the trigger. The two rounds fire from two different barrels. By atf definition, it’s not a machine gun. There are also double barrel, side by side, ar15s’. Those are not considered machine guns either. You can even fire two rounds out of a traditional coach shotgun at the same time as well. That’s not considered a machine gun either.
You will probably need a large primer to power all the pins reliably, so to say. Once saw a guy make himself a seven shot .22 caliber conversion for a flaregun, and the hammer on the thing just didn't have enough oomph for the plate with the blade pins to strike the rims hard enough.
@@DeoVindice_61-65 yes that's true but a couch gun double barrel has two triggers. Making it still one round per trigger pull. If you get multiple rounds per trigger pull it is by definition a machine gun.
Have 12 firing pins already installed on the cylinder head with the backs of them exposed. Then use a roller wheel attached to the lathe moving thingy that holds a cutting tool come into contact with the firing pins, and BAMM!! You have a super fast machine gun!
50cal Val is lucky to even appear on her dad's channel, jeez. Next time just blur her face out and caption it with "anonymous". Also, wish my dad was still around to see this kinda thing, we did all kinds of projects in his machine shop on the CNC lathe and mill but never got into guns just because we're behind enemy lines over here in CA.
@@ryanthede4689 she’s fine but honestly I’m more interested in the mechanics of it. Definitely prettier then Mark, but I’m not in the market for creeping on a young woman who I share only one interest with.
@@XtreeM_FaiL I was thinking the way it's got a spring would let you program it so the PID doesn't need to worry about as much overtravel. Lets you hit the primer with it moving faster.
Good video man. Not enough people show their failures and trouble shooting. Its easy to show something that works but much more valuable to to explain how you got there.
control theory is so magical, not in the "g-code works like magic" way, its a very simple mathematical concept that allows you to basically make anything smart
So I'm a little late with the spring loaded center punch solution, but that would work. Also, you could program a little radius at the bottom of the rapid stroke. Just big enough that it doesn't have to come to a full stop and reverse on Z? Though it kind of still would. I used to do something similar when I had to program broaching on a CNC lathe. Saves wear on something or other. Maybe.
i had a thought just now, after a long day at the shop trying to replace a ball screw in a johnford lathe. i used my auto punch to mark a few things for orientation when it occurred to me; why dont you use an auto punch to try to set the primers off?
It is always reassuring to watch your videos, as it shows that there is at least one other mechanical design and production engineer who is crazier than I am. It is a good thing you had your kids showing up in the video, as it also proves you had at least two bright moments in your existence. Greetings from Switzerland's' high-precision belt!
As a quadcopter pilot PIDs are part of life. I learned pids in my control theory course but you really learn it when you can see what the I term is doing as it overloads and causes oscillations or when you D is too high and the quad overshoots a roll.
I use PID loop controls on a daily basis, imagine how complicated things can get when you have multiple control elements/valves on say a Hydraulic system that all feed back to a main controller, some of them feed forward to the other elements of the system, there are multiple feed paths that need to be pressure balanced with each other and the pumps are pushing out around 80 Bar pressure and if you get things wrong and starve an eight stage pump that costs £250k you gonna have a really bad day........ oh, and did I mention the oil is preheated to 130 Deg C, so if you get a leak it injects super hot oil straight in to your body....... FML.
@@nickmaclachlan5178 hmm, 80 bar seems low for hydraulics, I assume it is a high flow system? I am building a 300 bar 450c hydrogen reactor right now, lol. Controls are easy but materials choice is actual cancer
@@Ammoniummetavanadate It's actually a constant pressure fuel oil feed/recirculation system for 48 Power station Ignition burners, approx 500Mw of output. It controls from zero flow and max recirc all the way to max flow whilst still maintaining a minimum recirc value. In certain conditions it flows as much as 25 Tonnes of oil per hour. The trick is to balance the flow in all conditions as the number of burners firing can change minute by minute. It's a nightmare from a controls perspective, but also from the mechanical side as it's lifting the fuel from ground level up about 50 metres and back down again. Bleeding the air out on initial filling is a complete PITA, as is draining it when the unit is turned off. If you leave oil in, it will solidify if the temp drops...... then you're proper fucked......
I find that gun channels teach me more about engineering that I would have learned in real life. I do find it fascinating which is surprising to me, because I've an eighth grade education and yet im a blacksmith and I custom build muzzleloaders. I guess one doesn't need to go into lifetime debt to become a craftsman. Thanx for your videos. Always interesting.
Wow...someone with an engineering degree that's actually programming and running a CNC lathe, and learning that their initial bullshit *never* works in the real world. I wish ME's were required to actually do programming and running on CNC lathes & mills in order to get that precious degree.
lol.. It is a partnership - We design the parts, you get them to work... lol... Kidding, anyone who has actually controlled real world things (especially scratch-built complex systems), knows it is an iterative process. (Obviously the ME needs to be willing to contemplate that the machinist actually knows his stuff... The machinist or fabricators all know that the Engineer just has a fanciful CAD model he dreamt up.)
@@kadmow I can't even tell you how many times I had to make revisions to blueprints, and get them approved of course, in order for things to actually be correct. That includes custom designed tooling as well. 🤦♂️
You know, I thought the same thing. I just want in the firearms industry, firearms design, machining, etc. I had a job at a local firearms manufacture for all of 3 weeks as a shop hand before I called it quits. Polishing parts ALL day is not fun, especially when you're given denatured alcohol as a coolant and forbidden from wearing gloves (because you're sanding/polishing on a lathe). In a bigger shop you may work up to CNC machinist, which isn't too fun either in a production setting.
@@freedomfan4272 Yeah, no thanks. The point of my comment was to illustrate how it may sound awesome to get in such a position but it's not all it's cracked up to be, especially in a production oriented setting.
I thought (before the end cap appeared) that you were gonna spin the lathe and bring a tool in to set off the blanks one after the other as fast as the lathe could spin, so it would sound like a machine gun
ATF- ummm guys we need to ban this weapon of war, we don't need this guy taking this machine gun into an airport. Machinist- really, it weights over 2300 lbs!!! ATF- ya but if you were to attach an arm brace to it, that's where we'll have a problem, we will arrest you!!!!!!
IMHO You still built a machine gun in the eyes of the BATFE, they have declared shoe laces to be machine guns before - just using blanks buys you nothing unless the potential live round projectile has no exit from the chamber.
There is no way a projectile could leave the bore. And I think Mr Serbu's issues with manufacturing a machine gun is different than a regular citizen making one. When he makes a machine gun, it must be for sale. That would make this extremely expensive as a lathe like that is around $100,000 base price and every time it needs to be moved is around $10,000
A few years back when I built my own electric metal melting furnace I used a PID to control the heating elements. It was my introduction to PIDs and surprisingly it still works.
Well, that was awesome. My thought was a spring-loaded 'auto-punch', which would make the machine's accel/deceleration irrelevant. Trying to figure out the plunge on that might be a good way to break a punch though...
Use a gear or sprocket with several "firing pins" that key into the firing pin holes. The C axis tool would remain stationary, the sprocket would spin with the lathe and you would presumably not have to worry about stopping at all.
i was searching for latte recipe, didn't notice i misspelled it in to lathe, saw the small thumbnail and thought this was a custom machine that would serve multiple coffee latte. :D Anyways, nice project you got there.
How about a rotary firing pin , something like a stitch roller ( google it for reference). Syncing it up could be complicated but a ring gear on the perimeter of the .22 cylinder might be a good way to go about it.
Or just make a relief cut on the outermost perimeter of the .22 cylinder and just have a smooth roller bearing pressed against the cylinder to line up with the rim of the “blank”. If that works you could get some crazy rpm.
Easy way, just tune your rapid position to compensate for your PID overshoot protection - tell the pin to go further than you "need" it to go and accept damage risk. Or do it the right way and program the deceleration event into your striking event to get smooth and precise location control, but that takes effort. The thinking man would just incorporate a fixed energy firing mechanism instead of a dowel, like a spring loaded punch, into the design, so your PID can have inherent slop.
That pin punch does compress a little in normal use.crap have to use calculus to find a ramp down speed to meet compression. Last question; does it only have to be successful more than once? If not ping the crap of firing pin socket maybe 2 thousands or so?
The pin could be a spring loaded ramp. Lets say you put 12 tiny fixed ramps right next to each firing pin impact spot, on each chamber. Now on the other side instead of a pin you have another single spring loaded ramp as the "firing pin". As the lathe rotates, that tiny "primer ramp" with be cocked by one of the 12 fixed ramps. Once it clears the fixed ramp it will slam down into the cartridge. Nothing complicated.
i feel for you man. I graduated high-school in 1980 with an IQ of 184. I was told that was in the top 1/2 half of the top percent of earth. I still grab my calculator to bill a customer!
As has been pointed out, the punch needs a rounded or pointed end instead of a flat one to concentrate the striking force into a smaller area. However, the main problem for your motion is the positional profile of the punch. Instead of an A-shaped motion, where the punch comes in and out in one motional operation, you need a trapezoidal profile, where the punch comes in, lingers for a few milliseconds, and then backs out. Of course, you still need the PID tuning on the punch motion to allow it to have the maximum deceleration of that axis so the the punch acts as a striker.
Mechanically link the firing pin to the rotation of the cylinder. Much like the hand of a revolver links the cylinder rotation to index the chambers to the firing position, this would both synchronize the chambers to the firing position and physically drive the firing pin, by transferring the rotational movement into a fore and aft reciprocation. No firing pin spring to drive it - drive the firing pin mechanically with the speed of rotation. Complex cam path (especially at .22 scales), but a fairly bombproof setup in terms to timing and strike depth. The faster it rotates, the more smartly.the firing pin will strike. The limiting factor would be strength of materials and linkages.
Spring loaded center punch. You would have to slow down a bit more, but the hammering effect would certainly fire the primers each time. Simply set the travel to a few thousandths past the break point on the center punch or make a rudimentary hammer and sear to come in and break at your desired LB point. Just a couple suggestions for reliability. US Navy Machinery Repairman 2nd class (8 year Veteran). Zip~
Rapids typically have a large path tolerance. The axis may not be reaching the programmed position. How deep did the punch impact the rim? Try a G4 before retracting. Or a G1 with dwell.
Make a punch backed up by some belleville washers. Then you can rapid to a point behind the primer, and the washers will just compress. So long as they're stiff enough to still crush the rim but not overload the axis, you're good to go (and I'm sure it'd take a LOT to overload the axis).
I know exactly why lol! You punch is actually slowing down before it hits the primer to prevent over shoot lol! HA! You said the exact same thing after rofl!
You could have just brute forced it another .15mm forward to git er dun. You're starting to convince me that I want to finish my degree. Do you think an online degree would be worth the time/money? I have a kid and a business so I don't think I can attend classes.
Dead blow type inertia punch would have worked wonderfully. You have too much time on your hands to make 22lr revolver lathe! Its a shame Val don't do videos no more, did she have too many pervs harassing her?
What are those punches called that have a spring in them...that would work. One that has to get pushed in to a certain point before it'll release. Like the ones you use in a door hinge punch or to punch Ethernet/phone wire junctions.
spring loaded center punch maybe .. Id personally go with a knurling type holder , rotating pin assembly ( now that i read the comments, both ideas have already been covered.
If the cap had a spring-loaded pin hammer for every cap, and the hammers had a geometry on them that let them be cocked when interfacing what you tried to use as a striker/firing pin here. What ends up happening is that the hammers are let go the moment they stop contacting the probe. Being released, they always line up with the cap, and the guarantee of enough energy being delivered is much higher. Set right, and this thing would brrrt
Mark please register a lathe as a machine gun. That would be hilarious.
Bump 1000x
That would be just amazing. May result in the world's largest .22 caliber machinegun
Register it is a machine gun and then stop making payments on it
What happens if he produces a suppressor on that lathe after registering it as a machine gun? At what point does that need registering?
I may be mistaken (as most of my knowledge on the subject comes from an old Brandon Herrera video), but it should be trivial for Mark to register his lathe as machine gun because he's an SOT, he basically just has to inform the ATF that he's done so. I suspect that what's stopping him doing it is that it might cause problems if he then wants to use the lathe as a lathe.
Drill the chambers a little closer to the edge. Use a ridged block to act as the firing pin. As the cylinder rotates, it hits the block and sets off the round. You can rotate the cylinder at what ever speed you want.
If it is difficult to set off the rounds without tearing the brass, replace the block with a wheel firing pins on it, geared off the cylinder.
All dislikes are from lathes.
That is an awesome warning label!
A spring driven center punch would work every time.
Chuck up an automatic centre punch, one of those spring loaded things. I believe that may work.
you're poor daughter... cool video pops
Next make the cnc brute force a safe open (brute force as in does all the possible combinations not destroys the safe 😂)
PID kinda sucked, but it was really cool to see it happen in lab and even cooler in this video!
A spring punch would probably have worked too
If you really wanted to do this legally! You could use black powder with caps! to actually fire projectiles! funny enough knew exactly what was going on with the rapid speed movements lol This can't be any worse then are full auto bb gun on a Kuka KR 60-3 CNC robotic arm project at work lol! Some things just need to be done a $25,000 cnc robot you know what I mean lol? Did mention when your really bored they make awesome park rides?
Push it further knowing you need to overcompensate
Being a rim fire cartridge I was expecting a knurling wheel type roller to crush the rims at any spindle speed. Like a 3000 rpm zip gun.
Same
that'd be my first guess, and my personal favorite over the automatic center punch (I like hitting things with hammers)
Wonder if a simple roller bearing would be enough? Mill a step out along the circumference so the rim of the case is sticking out and just run the roller along the edge. Rounds per minute is just how fast the chuck spins.
@@dangerrangerlstc I think it would be - you’re just making a crimping press that is set up to crimp on a different plane. The lack of fixed position dies is obviated by the massive amount of rigidity you have in that machine.
might as well just crash a section of tube against the rims :)
A machine gun, in the most literal sense.
Machining gun.
@@RagingShrimp67 he should machine a machine gun on his machine gun, or make a machine gun making machine gun with the machine gun machine gun maker
I probably have to register this comment with the feds and pay a tax stamp on it
Could’ve chucked up an automatic center punch and programmed enough release to reset the mechanism.
Winner 😎
Exactly what I was thinking. Then speed of the tool doesn’t matter
This is the suggestion i was looking for
Or a simple piezoelectric current into a vacuum chamber array... But you know .. go ahead and keep using that euclidean engineering...
If you register that as a MG that would be a meme. A post sample lathe.
But then what happens when he wants to use it as a lathe?
@@jic1 It'd actually be rather brilliant. Make the AFT either go a bridge too far and say that lathes are machine guns, suddenly getting every machine shop in the union personally involved, or say that things aren't machine guns just because they conform to their definition of a machine gun. They have no right answer.
@@jsn1252 you’re dangerously smart
@@jsn1252 _"They have no right answer."_ That's never stopped the ATF before!
But of course, when you make the ATF mad they just end up burning down your house and incinerating children…
This is so stupid and clever at the same time, I love it.
You could maybe put rubber washers in between where the shoulders of the blanks meet the firing chamber, lifting them slightly higher out of it, then keep the program the same. That way the PID won't have slowed down the punch tip too much as the strike happens, and the rubber will allow some compression so it doesn't break something by having too long a stroke for the space.
stick to real housewives, dunce.
Spring loaded center punch would’ve been a great option, doesn’t matter the speed at which the punch feeds, just have to adjust the stopping point of the punch and let the punch do it’s job as a firing pin
I thought of that then I read the comments and saw that we think a little alike.
Damn you beat me to it!!!
imagine this all 12 bullets let off at once by making thee entire back plate have 12 different punches
@@sawyerragland9992 then that would be perfectly legal and not be a machine gun I believe, would fall under volley fire
so is the the complicated version of, sticking a round in a bench vise and hitting the back end with a hammer?!?!
Yup typical enginerd making things more complicated than it's supposed to 😂👍
Who uses a vice? Just hold it between your teeth and bite hard!
@@R1davies then hit the primer with a tongue stud.
Upgrades people upgrades
I am a milwrite
An Engineer will walk through a room full of naked women to fuck a millwright.
I thought your grampa was in ww2!!!!
Millwright pendejo. Just kidding Edwin 😂
I doubt Edwin can fix a sandwich, let alone any machinery.
You mean MillWRONG.
Love this! Have you ever looked at an Remington-Elliot ring derringer In 22lr? 5 barrels drilled in one piece of steel with a mechanism that rotates the firing pin to each barrel… the barrel does not turn. Very clever. I can appreciate the machining on that one and your 12 barrel.
No but I just looked it up. Very cool, thanks!
That was also the action on the colt "defender" 8 barreled shotgun, i believe. Or i might be remembering the design of one of the 4 barrel liberator shotguns we made to give to freedom fighters.
A spring punch with the tool path set a couple of thou deeper than zero?
Same
Beat me to it.
That was my theory
The issue with a spring loaded punch is that the punch needs to be cocked. On a Starrett punch, the cocking depth is over .350".
If the chamber has a bottom and a 90 degree vent hole, IMO it no longer has the ability to expel a projectile. It's the readily convertible section that gets you.
@@gungadinn what if it was a pop punch? Set the timing so the punch arms and pops at the correct distance.
only an engineer would make it more complicated than "make it go in further"
Making it go in farther won't help. Only a non-engineer wouldn't understand why.
@@markserbu lmao nice
**Farther*
@@markserbu Use a automatic center punch.
In further and it crashes the punch and breaks something
An evil Mark Serbu would execute all his foes with this “device”… one at a time.
I'm canceling my meeting with Mark now; had my suspicions about meeting up at 2:27.
“A machine gun is defined as ... with a single pull of the trigger”.
Easy. No trigger.
I can't recall the name but a guy did exactly that with a sten like gun that had no trigger and was set up to slamfire and pretty much runaway in full auto. One just loaded and inserted the magazine home and then just pulled back and let the bolt fly and the gun would empty itself. Since there wasn't a provision to control when the bolt releases, it truly had no trigger. The ATF caught on and they obviously aren't around any more.
I assume the ATF defines a trigger as anything that initiates the firing sequence. Here, it would be the Cycle Start button on the lathe.
I like your style
Define trigger! You can't have a gun without a trigger, or it would fire the ammo as soon as it was loaded. In this case, the trigger was a button on the machine.
For those interested in my previous post, it was called the "Sputter Gun" by William H. York. None were sold apparently. Neat bit of a "forgotten weapon" 😉.
"Storms coming Annie, you better get home quick!" - Mark Serbu
Read this I’m her voice lmao
"I can feel it in ma bones."
@@JosStrange ⁷
Anne are you ok
@@JosStrange отщ
As said poor engineering student I really appreciate these connections between book/lecture and something far more interesting. Also you occasionally say something that I comprehend and it’s a pleasant surprise, like hearing a foreign language and catching part of a sentence.
Thank you for putting out interesting content, a lot of us at Riddle like your work.
You could have a firing pin for each hole on the diameter of a disk and have that disk rock in a circular motion on a central pivot point. Have a rolling arm that pushes the depth of travel on the back end of the disk at one side of its outer edge so one firing pin engages at a time as the barle assembly rotates. Than the fiering sequence happens at the speed of rotation. You can also use rocking arms so that the firing disk rotates in line with the cartridge assembly.
"We can't stop, we have to slow down first" ~ Space Balls
"Are we stopped"
"Yes sir"
"Good. How about a five minute break?"
@@dangerrangerlstc Smoke em if you got em
I think Mark and AvE would have lots of fun together.
The world might implode... or a wormhole would open.
Those Two Probably Arent Allowed Near Each Other.
I'd love to see that happen!
Keep that drunk Canuck in BC.
Omg. That would be epic!
Dang, should the band-saw ever go crazy, you've got the perfect weapon to stop it.
run a negative offset so you smash that primer! also why didnt you do like a gear that rolls with the spindle to get them to fire at the speed of rotation?
Crashing a very expensive machine for demo seems rather silly.
@@guytech7310 mehh its a soft crash not a hard crash
@@the_chomper a crash is a crash; just ask any motorcyclist
Spring loaded punch with a slight over travel would be my first idea to make it more reliable on the firing but would have to adjust timing and program depending on what you have available.
Would putting in a little striker into the cap, either over each hole or on a spinning arm that is times to stop in each position, make it work from throwing that mass forward with no deceleration?
behold, mark "not elon musk" serbu's sequel to the "not a flamethrower"
the not a lathe machine gun
could have cheated by rigging 12 pins up to hit the primers all at the same time making it a multi-shot gun and since it's not a machine gun it's now youtube friendly
Legally, though, it's still a machine gun even if he did it your way.
@@theazuzhaters9988 No it wouldn’t. There’s a pistol made by some company that fires two rounds with one pull of the trigger. The two rounds fire from two different barrels. By atf definition, it’s not a machine gun. There are also double barrel, side by side, ar15s’. Those are not considered machine guns either. You can even fire two rounds out of a traditional coach shotgun at the same time as well. That’s not considered a machine gun either.
You will probably need a large primer to power all the pins reliably, so to say. Once saw a guy make himself a seven shot .22 caliber conversion for a flaregun, and the hammer on the thing just didn't have enough oomph for the plate with the blade pins to strike the rims hard enough.
@@DeoVindice_61-65 yes that's true but a couch gun double barrel has two triggers. Making it still one round per trigger pull. If you get multiple rounds per trigger pull it is by definition a machine gun.
@@PewLand not if it falls under volley fire exemption, if each round leaves a separate barrel at the same time then it’s not a machine gun.
Have 12 firing pins already installed on the cylinder head with the backs of them exposed. Then use a roller wheel attached to the lathe moving thingy that holds a cutting tool come into contact with the firing pins, and BAMM!! You have a super fast machine gun!
You just described the patent for the Gatling Gun.
50cal Val is lucky to even appear on her dad's channel, jeez. Next time just blur her face out and caption it with "anonymous". Also, wish my dad was still around to see this kinda thing, we did all kinds of projects in his machine shop on the CNC lathe and mill but never got into guns just because we're behind enemy lines over here in CA.
I’m sure she gets loads of gross trolls.
It's not like she doesn't have her own channel already
Why tho? Did she do something?
@@ryanthede4689 She hasn't posted to it in years sadly. Her content was good.
@@ryanthede4689 she’s fine but honestly I’m more interested in the mechanics of it. Definitely prettier then Mark, but I’m not in the market for creeping on a young woman who I share only one interest with.
Spring loaded punch. Over travel the depth by a couple thousandths.
It's a total guess from a non-engineer, but would have using a center punch (with a lighter spring) have helped?
I like the way you think. Great idea in my book.
I don't think that spring loaded center punch do any good.
They have very sharp point that concentrates all the pressure to a very small area.
I think .22 firing pins are more like a small flathead screwdriver.
@@XtreeM_FaiL It's trivial to change the shape of the point.
@@XtreeM_FaiL I was thinking the way it's got a spring would let you program it so the PID doesn't need to worry about as much overtravel. Lets you hit the primer with it moving faster.
Good video man. Not enough people show their failures and trouble shooting. Its easy to show something that works but much more valuable to to explain how you got there.
control theory is so magical, not in the "g-code works like magic" way, its a very simple mathematical concept that allows you to basically make anything smart
A rotating gear, like a cowboy's spur might work and at higher speeds.
A leather punch could work like this.
So I'm a little late with the spring loaded center punch solution, but that would work. Also, you could program a little radius at the bottom of the rapid stroke. Just big enough that it doesn't have to come to a full stop and reverse on Z? Though it kind of still would. I used to do something similar when I had to program broaching on a CNC lathe. Saves wear on something or other. Maybe.
i had a thought just now, after a long day at the shop trying to replace a ball screw in a johnford lathe. i used my auto punch to mark a few things for orientation when it occurred to me; why dont you use an auto punch to try to set the primers off?
It is always reassuring to watch your videos, as it shows that there is at least one other mechanical design and production engineer who is crazier than I am. It is a good thing you had your kids showing up in the video, as it also proves you had at least two bright moments in your existence. Greetings from Switzerland's' high-precision belt!
Put firing pins in all 12 holes and use a “bearing on a stick” to roll against said pins... turn on the main spindle to have a gatling
Best solution, I think. No sear wear and individually replaceable. Then again, how many times would you want to spend ammo firing this thing?
That is why, the only way I would have a mg, is if someone else would buy the ammo, and keep me supplied...
As a quadcopter pilot PIDs are part of life.
I learned pids in my control theory course but you really learn it when you can see what the I term is doing as it overloads and causes oscillations or when you D is too high and the quad overshoots a roll.
I use PID loop controls on a daily basis, imagine how complicated things can get when you have multiple control elements/valves on say a Hydraulic system that all feed back to a main controller, some of them feed forward to the other elements of the system, there are multiple feed paths that need to be pressure balanced with each other and the pumps are pushing out around 80 Bar pressure and if you get things wrong and starve an eight stage pump that costs £250k you gonna have a really bad day........ oh, and did I mention the oil is preheated to 130 Deg C, so if you get a leak it injects super hot oil straight in to your body....... FML.
@@nickmaclachlan5178 hmm, 80 bar seems low for hydraulics, I assume it is a high flow system?
I am building a 300 bar 450c hydrogen reactor right now, lol. Controls are easy but materials choice is actual cancer
@@Ammoniummetavanadate It's actually a constant pressure fuel oil feed/recirculation system for 48 Power station Ignition burners, approx 500Mw of output. It controls from zero flow and max recirc all the way to max flow whilst still maintaining a minimum recirc value. In certain conditions it flows as much as 25 Tonnes of oil per hour. The trick is to balance the flow in all conditions as the number of burners firing can change minute by minute. It's a nightmare from a controls perspective, but also from the mechanical side as it's lifting the fuel from ground level up about 50 metres and back down again. Bleeding the air out on initial filling is a complete PITA, as is draining it when the unit is turned off. If you leave oil in, it will solidify if the temp drops...... then you're proper fucked......
@@nickmaclachlan5178 goddamn, that sounds super rad.
@@Ammoniummetavanadate It honestly could have been done a lot simpler, but you know what design engineers are like right?
G-Code .22!
I find that gun channels teach me more about engineering that I would have learned in real life. I do find it fascinating which is surprising to me, because I've an eighth grade education and yet im a blacksmith and I custom build muzzleloaders. I guess one doesn't need to go into lifetime debt to become a craftsman. Thanx for your videos. Always interesting.
💥😎4 EHT MHTIROGLA 👍🇺🇸
AS A FELLOW ENGINEERING BACKGROUND...KUDOS 2 INFUSING P.I.D. THEORY!LOL😉
Wow...someone with an engineering degree that's actually programming and running a CNC lathe, and learning that their initial bullshit *never* works in the real world.
I wish ME's were required to actually do programming and running on CNC lathes & mills in order to get that precious degree.
lol.. It is a partnership - We design the parts, you get them to work... lol...
Kidding, anyone who has actually controlled real world things (especially scratch-built complex systems), knows it is an iterative process.
(Obviously the ME needs to be willing to contemplate that the machinist actually knows his stuff... The machinist or fabricators all know that the Engineer just has a fanciful CAD model he dreamt up.)
@@kadmow I can't even tell you how many times I had to make revisions to blueprints, and get them approved of course, in order for things to actually be correct. That includes custom designed tooling as well. 🤦♂️
Increase depth of penetration to compensate, now that’s a lesson most of us learn in highschool in the backseat of our parents suv.
Hey mark if you ever want a free hand I’d love to come be a grunt
You know, I thought the same thing. I just want in the firearms industry, firearms design, machining, etc. I had a job at a local firearms manufacture for all of 3 weeks as a shop hand before I called it quits. Polishing parts ALL day is not fun, especially when you're given denatured alcohol as a coolant and forbidden from wearing gloves (because you're sanding/polishing on a lathe). In a bigger shop you may work up to CNC machinist, which isn't too fun either in a production setting.
no dude mark serbu does not want a hsndjob . he's not gey.
@amorton93 Palmetto State armory is hiring in south carolina. They have been advertising for help on the radio alot recently
@amorton94 Palmetto State armory is hiring in south carolina. They have been advertising for help on the radio alot recently
@@freedomfan4272 Yeah, no thanks. The point of my comment was to illustrate how it may sound awesome to get in such a position but it's not all it's cracked up to be, especially in a production oriented setting.
Huh? Thanks for reminding me that I'm stupid. 👍👍👍
Grinding the punch to a .010” chisel tip would probably help with ignition
i loved this video. perfect way to understand and how pid affects in my life.
I thought (before the end cap appeared) that you were gonna spin the lathe and bring a tool in to set off the blanks one after the other as fast as the lathe could spin, so it would sound like a machine gun
Like a knurling tool
Where I can discuss with Mark Serbu?
I have some doubts about firearms that I wish he could provide me some answers...
ATF- ummm guys we need to ban this weapon of war, we don't need this guy taking this machine gun into an airport.
Machinist- really, it weights over 2300 lbs!!!
ATF- ya but if you were to attach an arm brace to it, that's where we'll have a problem, we will arrest you!!!!!!
Wait the real mark serbu? The one who made the super shorty shotgun?
markserbu, How would something like a "Starrett 18A Automatic Center Punch" work?
IMHO You still built a machine gun in the eyes of the BATFE, they have declared shoe laces to be machine guns before - just using blanks buys you nothing unless the potential live round projectile has no exit from the chamber.
There is no way a projectile could leave the bore.
And I think Mr Serbu's issues with manufacturing a machine gun is different than a regular citizen making one. When he makes a machine gun, it must be for sale. That would make this extremely expensive as a lathe like that is around $100,000 base price and every time it needs to be moved is around $10,000
A few years back when I built my own electric metal melting furnace I used a PID to control the heating elements. It was my introduction to PIDs and surprisingly it still works.
Serbu is the king of I know I shouldn't make it, but I can, so screw it.
My “git r done” would’ve been a loose plate with a pin for each chamber and a single whack to pop all 12 at once
God is Still in Control.
Great Video Thanks.
Well, that was awesome. My thought was a spring-loaded 'auto-punch', which would make the machine's accel/deceleration irrelevant. Trying to figure out the plunge on that might be a good way to break a punch though...
It was cool to see Val hangin around! Hope she’s doing well!😁
Use a gear or sprocket with several "firing pins" that key into the firing pin holes. The C axis tool would remain stationary, the sprocket would spin with the lathe and you would presumably not have to worry about stopping at all.
You'd still have to stop. For reloading :)
i was searching for latte recipe, didn't notice i misspelled it in to lathe, saw the small thumbnail and thought this was a custom machine that would serve multiple coffee latte. :D Anyways, nice project you got there.
Fully automatic macchiatto gun :)
How about a rotary firing pin , something like a stitch roller ( google it for reference). Syncing it up could be complicated but a ring gear on the perimeter of the .22 cylinder might be a good way to go about it.
Or just make a relief cut on the outermost perimeter of the .22 cylinder and just have a smooth roller bearing pressed against the cylinder to line up with the rim of the “blank”. If that works you could get some crazy rpm.
Easy way, just tune your rapid position to compensate for your PID overshoot protection - tell the pin to go further than you "need" it to go and accept damage risk.
Or do it the right way and program the deceleration event into your striking event to get smooth and precise location control, but that takes effort.
The thinking man would just incorporate a fixed energy firing mechanism instead of a dowel, like a spring loaded punch, into the design, so your PID can have inherent slop.
That pin punch does compress a little in normal use.crap have to use calculus to find a ramp down speed to meet compression. Last question; does it only have to be successful more than once? If not ping the crap of firing pin socket maybe 2 thousands or so?
They teach about cnc machines in fancy pants unimuhvercities, I never would have thunk it based on my co-workers
This was done by me thirty years ago. You made my day fella. Shame I did not film my hoarsening around in the shop. Good day fella.
The pin could be a spring loaded ramp. Lets say you put 12 tiny fixed ramps right next to each firing pin impact spot, on each chamber. Now on the other side instead of a pin you have another single spring loaded ramp as the "firing pin". As the lathe rotates, that tiny "primer ramp" with be cocked by one of the 12 fixed ramps. Once it clears the fixed ramp it will slam down into the cartridge. Nothing complicated.
the ATF wants to know your location
Math would be much simpler if they just explained some examples where you can use the stuff.
i feel for you man. I graduated high-school in
1980 with an IQ of 184. I was told that was in
the top 1/2 half of the top percent of earth.
I still grab my calculator to bill a customer!
As has been pointed out, the punch needs a rounded or pointed end instead of a flat one to concentrate the striking force into a smaller area. However, the main problem for your motion is the positional profile of the punch. Instead of an A-shaped motion, where the punch comes in and out in one motional operation, you need a trapezoidal profile, where the punch comes in, lingers for a few milliseconds, and then backs out. Of course, you still need the PID tuning on the punch motion to allow it to have the maximum deceleration of that axis so the the punch acts as a striker.
Mechanically link the firing pin to the rotation of the cylinder. Much like the hand of a revolver links the cylinder rotation to index the chambers to the firing position, this would both synchronize the chambers to the firing position and physically drive the firing pin, by transferring the rotational movement into a fore and aft reciprocation. No firing pin spring to drive it - drive the firing pin mechanically with the speed of rotation.
Complex cam path (especially at .22 scales), but a fairly bombproof setup in terms to timing and strike depth. The faster it rotates, the more smartly.the firing pin will strike. The limiting factor would be strength of materials and linkages.
You're a natural teacher
Spring loaded center punch. You would have to slow down a bit more, but the hammering effect would certainly fire the primers each time. Simply set the travel to a few thousandths past the break point on the center punch or make a rudimentary hammer and sear to come in and break at your desired LB point. Just a couple suggestions for reliability. US Navy Machinery Repairman 2nd class (8 year Veteran). Zip~
Maybe you could just use something like a automatic center punch with a modified tip on the lathe?
I’m confused about so many holes getting poked in one video.
wouldn't an automatic center punch be perfect? you could set the amount of pressure and get a reliable strike every time with a set depth movement.
Rapids typically have a large path tolerance. The axis may not be reaching the programmed position. How deep did the punch impact the rim? Try a G4 before retracting. Or a G1 with dwell.
Make a punch backed up by some belleville washers. Then you can rapid to a point behind the primer, and the washers will just compress. So long as they're stiff enough to still crush the rim but not overload the axis, you're good to go (and I'm sure it'd take a LOT to overload the axis).
I know exactly why lol! You punch is actually slowing down before it hits the primer to prevent over shoot lol! HA! You said the exact same thing after rofl!
You could have just brute forced it another .15mm forward to git er dun.
You're starting to convince me that I want to finish my degree. Do you think an online degree would be worth the time/money? I have a kid and a business so I don't think I can attend classes.
Dead blow type inertia punch would have worked wonderfully. You have too much time on your hands to make 22lr revolver lathe! Its a shame Val don't do videos no more, did she have too many pervs harassing her?
What are those punches called that have a spring in them...that would work. One that has to get pushed in to a certain point before it'll release. Like the ones you use in a door hinge punch or to punch Ethernet/phone wire junctions.
spring loaded center punch maybe .. Id personally go with a knurling type holder , rotating pin assembly ( now that i read the comments, both ideas have already been covered.
If the cap had a spring-loaded pin hammer for every cap, and the hammers had a geometry on them that let them be cocked when interfacing what you tried to use as a striker/firing pin here. What ends up happening is that the hammers are let go the moment they stop contacting the probe. Being released, they always line up with the cap, and the guarantee of enough energy being delivered is much higher. Set right, and this thing would brrrt
PID solution? Kick over from G00 to G01 with a high F, and maybe even a G04 at the stroke end. Now the machine will hit your Z exactly
04:00 I was thinking that was plunging a bir quick!
Congrats on being added to every government watch list there is in one video! thats some efficient impressive shit there
Center punch(The cheap, harbor freight Spring one)… and Stop a bit later..
A real lathe…With a Real Bore…Sigh..
Rad❤
Wouldn't a G1 with a high feed rate be more precise than a G0
Not to rush anything, but we're still waiting your Forensic Views on Kentucky's Gun.....!!!
You can just scratch out the derivative from that controller!!!!!! You only need proportional and integral. Derivative is disaster!!! Lol