The game does encourage you to plan out your vows when you make them, roughly sketching out potential milestones in advance. This can prevent the situation you described where you reach the conclusion prematurely. If it does happen though, then you are at the whim of the dice to shape the narrative. It's very much a "play to find out what happens" kind of game rather than an exercise in creative writing.
This. 👆🏼 More importantly, the entire idea is that the game is there to make the storyline unpredictable for the player. If what's fun for the player is having control over their character's arc, this is not the right game. This game is for those who are open to be surprise when reaching an event which seems to be the end just to find out there's a twist around the corner, about to prolong the journey.
I look at the game as the life of my character, more than just a story. Many times in my life, I've thought a particular issue or goal to be resolved, only to find out I missed or forgot something, requiring that my "quest" continue. The game assumes that you're going to play your character for an extended period, so sometimes progress rolls fall, forcing you to press on, or alter your vow. If you're more interested in a short story after which you'll move on to a new character or new game, increase or even double the amount of progress you mark. And if you truly consider a vow to have been accomplished and don't want to entertain the possibility of it continuing, simply state that you succeed without rolling, even if you only have 4 progress. Early on, I also had a problem with estimating the scope of my vows. I tended to lean toward a higher difficulty because I thought it necessary to help prolong the story and also earn more experience. But most vows should be like an episode of a TV show. The more difficult vows might be the arc of an entire season, while epic and extreme vows might be the entirely of the series across several seasons.
Love having this sort of discussion regarding games! As a big fan of Ironsworn/Starforged I also struggle with this element of the game. Naturally, especially in solo play there's nobody to stop you form doing what makes the most sense for the story - but I always feel compelled to follow through on the letter of the rules for want of missing something by assuming I know what's best for the pacing. Sometimes another crack at the oracles can surprise you in really great ways? But generally I think folks know what feels like a good conclusion even if the dice don't agree and maybe should follow their gut more? By "folks" I think I mean "me" here 😅
You can treat the Progress Track as your character's expectation of the vow. If the narrative ends the vow early a Strong Hit might mean the character is relieved the quest wasn't as dangerous as they thought. A Weak Hit might mean they worry they could have done it better and a Miss might have the character disappointed this wasn't the epic, saga worthy, name going into legend, challenge they expected. Also a failed Progress Move doesn't mean you have to continue the scene or even the story. You can have the consequence occur somewhere else or another time. Whether the character deals with it, or even needs to deal with it is up to you.
As a writer or as someone who knows the elements that a story needs, you would never need the vows. Those are a necessary (and clever, even if not perfect) way to give players the foundation element to keep a story moving. The day someone figures out how to systematize a way to get to an end of a story (vow path) when it really should according to *your* story, this will probably be a revelation in the world of RPG. In the meantime I'm happy knowing what a vow technically means in Ironsworn (which I'd apply in any solo RPG that is not a pure dungeon crawler), and will be fulfilling it as it is appropriate to the story. Thx for sharing the thoughts though!
Thanks for video, i have this problem at start of playing ironsworn, at moments like these when bad guy defeated but progress track is 4/10 i just fill extra progress, later this method strengthened when starforged came out, and one of session moves tell you to look for missed milestones of your quest and fill progress if you finde one
Very interesting video, I like the whole vow mechanics in Ironsworn, but Burning Wheel takes the character centric progression to a whole other level - have you ever looked at that game? It’s a more fleshed out “vow” system where the story is driven entirely by the characters’ believes, instincts and traits. Bit complicated at first, but creates quite a unique experience.
I think playing the game while taking loose notes, then editing those later into a proper story is the way to control some of the narrative. Just like a story based on true events. Things can be tweaked or changed from the original details.
I love this analysis! When you first explained the mechanic, it did make my skin crawl a little- I felt it makes a ton of sense in Brindlewood Bay where it's built off shorter time investment and immediate creativity, but, like you said, leaving story resolution up to chance (and built off much larger time investments) feels very threatening. BUT! It does feel much more true-to-life, and is certainly challenging in the way that can make stories especially interesting. It certainly sounds like the game aims for the narrative challenge, which does ultimately sound exciting!
A solution to premature completiation (It's happened to a friend of mine) is to adjust the challenge rank after the fact; turns out the quest was Troublesome, not Dangerous. The only mechanical effect is you gain that little less XP. But that's no big deal as ISworn doesn't really emphasize levelling and XP farming. It's more about character development than min/maxing your stats. But then there really is nothing like just rolling with it. The main problem for a solo paper&pen game is how do you keep the suspense going when you're the reader and the writer at the same time; what makes you want to turn to the next page? The unwanted Miss does. A Miss is the element that's outside you or your character's control, but it shouldn't be seen as just "You failed Your Vow." The best description of a Miss in ISworn I've taken aboard is that it's not necessarily that you didn't get what you want, it means that you get what you _didn't_ want. Put it this way: Strong Hit: You did it. Weak Hit: You just did it. Miss: You did it, but... You completed the vow, saved the day and rescued the princess, but it's not all cheers and medal ceremonies with John Williams music walking you down the aisle. For whatever reason things have become more complicated. Your heroics have made things worse in an unexpected way. A friend has become an enemy. The princess you rescued turns out to be a raging psychopath bent on world domination. Bottom line? The story gets more interesting in a way you didn't expect before you rolled Fulfill Your Vow. Fundamentally, the only negative effect game mechanic wise is you just didn't get the XP this time. But how does that new adversity change the character? How are they different now than they were when they Swore and Iron Vow? I really think it's one of the most important (and difficult at times) lessons to learn in Ironsworn/Starforge: learn to love the Miss.
I find your analysis of how mechanics inform the story produced by the game of great value. It helps I share the same experience of course. After Ironsworn left me unsatisfied with the stories it helped me tell, I have deviated to playing Mythic with DW. I wonder if Ironsworn has done enough in terms of game rules to set players on the right path.
The game does encourage you to plan out your vows when you make them, roughly sketching out potential milestones in advance. This can prevent the situation you described where you reach the conclusion prematurely. If it does happen though, then you are at the whim of the dice to shape the narrative. It's very much a "play to find out what happens" kind of game rather than an exercise in creative writing.
This. 👆🏼
More importantly, the entire idea is that the game is there to make the storyline unpredictable for the player. If what's fun for the player is having control over their character's arc, this is not the right game. This game is for those who are open to be surprise when reaching an event which seems to be the end just to find out there's a twist around the corner, about to prolong the journey.
I look at the game as the life of my character, more than just a story. Many times in my life, I've thought a particular issue or goal to be resolved, only to find out I missed or forgot something, requiring that my "quest" continue.
The game assumes that you're going to play your character for an extended period, so sometimes progress rolls fall, forcing you to press on, or alter your vow. If you're more interested in a short story after which you'll move on to a new character or new game, increase or even double the amount of progress you mark. And if you truly consider a vow to have been accomplished and don't want to entertain the possibility of it continuing, simply state that you succeed without rolling, even if you only have 4 progress.
Early on, I also had a problem with estimating the scope of my vows. I tended to lean toward a higher difficulty because I thought it necessary to help prolong the story and also earn more experience. But most vows should be like an episode of a TV show. The more difficult vows might be the arc of an entire season, while epic and extreme vows might be the entirely of the series across several seasons.
Love having this sort of discussion regarding games! As a big fan of Ironsworn/Starforged I also struggle with this element of the game. Naturally, especially in solo play there's nobody to stop you form doing what makes the most sense for the story - but I always feel compelled to follow through on the letter of the rules for want of missing something by assuming I know what's best for the pacing. Sometimes another crack at the oracles can surprise you in really great ways? But generally I think folks know what feels like a good conclusion even if the dice don't agree and maybe should follow their gut more?
By "folks" I think I mean "me" here 😅
You can treat the Progress Track as your character's expectation of the vow. If the narrative ends the vow early a Strong Hit might mean the character is relieved the quest wasn't as dangerous as they thought. A Weak Hit might mean they worry they could have done it better and a Miss might have the character disappointed this wasn't the epic, saga worthy, name going into legend, challenge they expected.
Also a failed Progress Move doesn't mean you have to continue the scene or even the story. You can have the consequence occur somewhere else or another time. Whether the character deals with it, or even needs to deal with it is up to you.
As a writer or as someone who knows the elements that a story needs, you would never need the vows. Those are a necessary (and clever, even if not perfect) way to give players the foundation element to keep a story moving. The day someone figures out how to systematize a way to get to an end of a story (vow path) when it really should according to *your* story, this will probably be a revelation in the world of RPG. In the meantime I'm happy knowing what a vow technically means in Ironsworn (which I'd apply in any solo RPG that is not a pure dungeon crawler), and will be fulfilling it as it is appropriate to the story.
Thx for sharing the thoughts though!
Thanks for video, i have this problem at start of playing ironsworn, at moments like these when bad guy defeated but progress track is 4/10 i just fill extra progress, later this method strengthened when starforged came out, and one of session moves tell you to look for missed milestones of your quest and fill progress if you finde one
Very interesting video, I like the whole vow mechanics in Ironsworn, but Burning Wheel takes the character centric progression to a whole other level - have you ever looked at that game? It’s a more fleshed out “vow” system where the story is driven entirely by the characters’ believes, instincts and traits. Bit complicated at first, but creates quite a unique experience.
I think playing the game while taking loose notes, then editing those later into a proper story is the way to control some of the narrative. Just like a story based on true events. Things can be tweaked or changed from the original details.
I love this analysis! When you first explained the mechanic, it did make my skin crawl a little- I felt it makes a ton of sense in Brindlewood Bay where it's built off shorter time investment and immediate creativity, but, like you said, leaving story resolution up to chance (and built off much larger time investments) feels very threatening. BUT! It does feel much more true-to-life, and is certainly challenging in the way that can make stories especially interesting. It certainly sounds like the game aims for the narrative challenge, which does ultimately sound exciting!
Right, it’s such a huge ask for the time commitment! But I think it makes sense given the grim and harsh world Ironsworn presents.
A solution to premature completiation (It's happened to a friend of mine) is to adjust the challenge rank after the fact; turns out the quest was Troublesome, not Dangerous. The only mechanical effect is you gain that little less XP. But that's no big deal as ISworn doesn't really emphasize levelling and XP farming. It's more about character development than min/maxing your stats. But then there really is nothing like just rolling with it.
The main problem for a solo paper&pen game is how do you keep the suspense going when you're the reader and the writer at the same time; what makes you want to turn to the next page? The unwanted Miss does.
A Miss is the element that's outside you or your character's control, but it shouldn't be seen as just "You failed Your Vow." The best description of a Miss in ISworn I've taken aboard is that it's not necessarily that you didn't get what you want, it means that you get what you _didn't_ want. Put it this way:
Strong Hit: You did it.
Weak Hit: You just did it.
Miss: You did it, but...
You completed the vow, saved the day and rescued the princess, but it's not all cheers and medal ceremonies with John Williams music walking you down the aisle. For whatever reason things have become more complicated. Your heroics have made things worse in an unexpected way. A friend has become an enemy. The princess you rescued turns out to be a raging psychopath bent on world domination. Bottom line? The story gets more interesting in a way you didn't expect before you rolled Fulfill Your Vow.
Fundamentally, the only negative effect game mechanic wise is you just didn't get the XP this time. But how does that new adversity change the character? How are they different now than they were when they Swore and Iron Vow?
I really think it's one of the most important (and difficult at times) lessons to learn in Ironsworn/Starforge: learn to love the Miss.
Great video, as always. I really enjoyed your storytelling discussion as framing for examination here. Can't wait for the next one!
Thank you Cassi!!
Fantastic analysis! Awesome stuff... all the fast movies, wow! My son did the same thing... those movies make for some of the best comedy.
Tack!
Thanks so much!
I find your analysis of how mechanics inform the story produced by the game of great value. It helps I share the same experience of course. After Ironsworn left me unsatisfied with the stories it helped me tell, I have deviated to playing Mythic with DW. I wonder if Ironsworn has done enough in terms of game rules to set players on the right path.