My Problem With The Way We Measure How Good A WR is. (Source Surf)
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- Stream highlight from my new twitch channel that's more focused on variety and discussing things in surf and other games
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took man 20 minutes to say that best wr videos are biased towards more popular surfers and recognizable maps.
geat video 👍
biggest issue is that well-known surfers will always get better ratings bcs they are known for owning the records. it is hard for surfers that take records from time to time to prove that their record is at least as good. when checking the wrs of the year u will immediately notice the names, whereas people that are not well-known, took records that still remain unbeaten and are actually nuts. that also comes with community voting since alot of surfers do not rlly know how to judge the records imo.
fluent in yappenese
number 1 yapper
i understand.
1 thing i never see people talking about really, but i find it to be a huge factor is, if consistensty is included in surf "skill" or not. Because generally people who are consistent at surf are also very consistent at other games they play, which would indicate consistency itself isnt necessarily a "surf skill". but more of a natural ability like reaction time or something. i think this is a topic that should be discussed/defined more by the top level players.
If you are to include consistency as part of surf skills, then p1nke is extremely underrated as a surfer and all his records should have wayy more praise. but the fact that lots of surfers simply dont have the consistency of a guy like him(even if they have a higher peak skill in short maps) to even be able to attempt certain map WRs puts a huge shroud of doubt as to the actual quality of the record..
TL:DR Should consistency be part of the QUALITY of a WR, or should it only indicate the overall difficulty of a WR. and not how "good" the WR is interms of surf perfection??? and following on from this, which criteria should be used for best WRs of each year?
Im not sure if there will ever be a definitive answer to this, seeing as though each person has their own strengths and weaknesses (levi, caff, yourself and a few others are probably the only ones able to have a valid opinion on this, since you guys are both consistent and highly skilled in short records/techy stuff also)
Would like to know your opinion on this, as ive debated this topic with people for yearss as to WR voting ( i used to vote every year when nyastle ran it)
I absolutely agree that its a factor however the difficulty of measuring consistency is finding out what the “Baseline” is. What is consistency? It can go so many different ways like you said, consistency in high performance over a short time/long time, the level of difficulty of the map itself playing into this as well. There’s a lot to talk about, and i might make this a discussion on my next stream
Yeah exactly, consistency can be both the ability to do long maps without failing often, or the ability to grind out short map, WR pace runs more often than others. Both require people to perform closer to their peak skill more regularly than just normal surfing in general though
I consider consistency as how often you can perform close to your peak potential. so someone like levi can perform close to his best a lot more frequently than say tucks/Liquidator or someone like that, even though their peak skill might very close on some maps.
The fact that levi is usually able to grind out more WR pace runs without making big mistakes than anyone else gives him a huge advantage interms of how long it takes him to get a WR or how often he is going - on runs.
like it might take another top5 surfer 2-3x longer than levi to hit the same run. but if we think about levi spending that same 2-3x amount of time grinding the same map, the chances are he sets an even better run in that time before anyone else beats it.
Although i do agree that how often you perform close to your best(consistency) applies both to long map running, and grinding out WR routes in short maps frequently. i'd say personally it applies a bit more to long maps interms of being able to WR them, since there is a lot longer time spent surfing and less chance of "fluking" an amazing route/bit of surf. consistency in short maps matters more as to how long it will take to get a record, where as in long surf maps it matters as to whether you can even get the WR or not at all i guess is what im saying. That's part of the reason why there is hundreds of people who can get WRCPs but nowhere near that many can get Map WRs.
Being super consistent seems to be quite rare in surf.
Would be keen to hear your thoughts on it next stream if you do end up talking about it.
A WR run is one run. Consistency doesn't really play any factor into how good it is.
@@badrandom3rd To be able to run a map that is 3+ minutes takes consistency in surf??? thats the whole point of this discussion. consistency can be seen in many ways.
I feel like consistency is would be well accounted for in server rank to hours played ratio, for example that would be why levi might be considered a better player than caff, despite caff having more wrs
I agree that how contested a map is doesn't neccesarily translate to the best record, but just because a record won't be broken most likely doesn't mean it's neccesarily the best either. At the end of the day it's a video game and people want to enjoy it. Lodypreview MIGHT be the best record regardless of anything else, it's true that less people will have the ability to know/understand it since most people don't know anything about the map, but it's not because of when or if it will get broken.
Playing a map nobody wants to play (alone) doesn't make you better than others.
Agreed. Records aren't better because of the likelihood of them being beaten. because we say the same for so many other records and then they end up getting improved upon, should've been more clear that it was more of an opinion than anything else,
though seriously lodypreviews so fucking hard to run and do all of the BS on the map well, its gonna take a while before anyone picks it up to try and improve that time.
@@cromalia3041 I definitely agree with you it's a crazy good record, and I'm sure that if I ever tried to run that map I would understand that even better. But yeah just wanted to point out that particular flaw, not to say I didn't agree with most of what you said :)
Yeah interesting. But how competitive a record is usually means it is higher quality. The fact is that if you 10x’d the amount of surfers, in time, most wrs would be beaten, with higher quality wrs as the competition 10x’d. Then the problem for these tech maps is that in order to compare them to unit maps you would need to do something like 10x the amount of people going for them.
Otherwise agree with your idea about how people rank WRs for best of the year based on bias and external factors.
Volcanic was a nasty run tho at the time.
Think of it like this also, yes Levi is crazy talented but he likely isn’t as good as super talents from more competitive fields like Magnus Carlsen for chess, Michael Jordan for basketball etc as these sports have, who knows, 1000x the competitive base.
And then therefore, the 100m sprint is a better wr than any surf wr, kinda obvious. But if you agree with this then you agree unit map WRs are usually better than tech map WRs.
it might be high quality, but that still does not take into account what we know is possible which was a point i missed. because then no matter what, if i get say -3 seconds on spaceship it will always lose out to a record on a t1 map with that thought process since if a map gets beaten by 0.01 and more - has been loc'd before, someone will notice that it's still very beatable. If there's gonna be a WR of the year on a low tier map it should actually push that limit, and not just do another 0.03 that will be replicated next year. but overall by pure logical conclusion your point makes sense, but the problem is that genuinely no one gives a shit about a tier1 map getting beaten by 0.01 unless you are completely clueless about surf. if we ranked WR's based of your logic. my treefort WR would not even be on the list of best records of 2020, nor would a lot of the other records on the list. that's why you can't rank it this way. because things like how memorable, groundbreaking and boundary breaking something is matters, there's nothing groundbreaking or memorable about any tier 1 WR run, unless it breaks the boundaries which a lot of surfers already know about. but when people break those boundaries on tech maps nobody cares. and it's not like every player that has grinded a map like say spaceship was bad... trofle, niyhm, matti and me were at the top and pushed what was possible, look at tronic too. i think tronic gets over rated as well since it literally is the same case for something like aircontrol, beat tronic by .60 and we are talking about a WR that is WR of the year.
this happens every fucking year. for 7 years that we have done WR's of the year. If you want an example. -.24 on surf_utopia by synki is a prime example of a WR of the year, done at the point where unit surf was taking over rapidly. that is monstrous and a perfect example of a map record i fucking lost my shit about, that is something i come clean and say if aircontrol was beaten by -.15 today it would be WR of the year 100%
@@cromalia3041 yeah I see. What follows from what I said is all 25 WRs of the year would probably be unit maps. So yeah we need to open the door to other subjective qualities, but then the problem is saying that we should allow some qualities like hitting all the tech but not allowing others. Then it becomes a hard thing to justify why your opinion is better for which metrics should be used.
I guess they have a pretty fair and pragmatic approach of letting people vote, how could an owner of ksf get to the position that ‘cromalias opinion is better so it should hold more weight’.
I think we can all understand that bias comes into play for those rankings but it still picks out great records for the video for one reason or another.
@@AngleCS you skipped over what i said, Groundbreaking (doing what hasnt been done before, context of the maps history matters a lot) Boundary pushing (destroying the perception of what was possible to do on the map) and memorable (runs that inherently have the previous 2 qualities will end with this one, this is probably the most subjective one) this metric is what ive been using for years to measure records and it ends up being correct 99% of the time. hypothetical example to how it can be applied and i might add more, if this does not make any sense in your head i cant help your bias.
Aircontrol -0.12
GB: the first time aircontrol has had a run with more than -0.10 in 7 years.
BP: say the total amount of “minus” that was thought to be left was -0.15. if someone got that close, is -0.15 actually whats left over from the map?
M: Ends up being memorable due to its sudden huge improvement when the map has been stagnant with big improvements after nearly a decade
I agree with whatever you said homie.👍
Do you agree that the oldest record should be more considered a good record?
Well it depends, the oldest WR on KSF right now is omnific which was WR of the year in 2019, but then theres also ghost busters high up on the list of the oldest WRs and i can say its not the best of records. It depends
quality yap
[insert hate comment]
the real reason is that good looking maps perform better, thats the only thing anyone cares about me included
Not true. Sure it makes them more appealing, but you cannot say that while aircontrol, akai, graphia, beginner, sinsane, insideout being some of the most played and contested maps on KSF and also highly regarded records are on the server. Top surfers only care about gameplay, and if they see a map that fills all the 4 criteria i talked about. they WILL flock to it if they find it interesting enough to play. Looks are enticing, but it can also be a pretty cardboard box like lovetunnel that has some of the most lazy and just inexcusably simple gameplay design yet people will play it since surf is inherently a fun game, you can find a bad TV show entertaining but that doesn't mean it's objectively a well made TV series.
@@cromalia3041 i aint readin allat sry
@@phrog6073 if ur gonna be a dumbass, atleast admit ur a dumbass
@@cromalia3041 im a dumbass
hi cromalia