"The illusion has become real, and the more real it becomes, the more they want it". - Gordon Gecko Synth manufacturers think you're a sucker. Why sell a synth for $1200 when the guy is willing to pay $5200? This is what the synth manufacturers count on when they set out to sell you their new flagship synth. Same for analog or digital synths. It doesn't matter. As long as the potential customer sees the synth as "High End", the illusion has become real and he will pay up. Same as in the Audio Hi-fi world where Hi-fi Audio manufacturers still suckers people into believing that a speaker cable costing $1000 per meter is better than the lamp wire you get for $1 per meter. Ohm's law doesn't apply to them. They think. Analog synths have usually been associated with a higher cost due to electronics inside, but new "analog" synths are in fact more digital than ever. Discrete components are not what makes up analog synths any more. Now it's all surface mounted chips and CPU's are running things. Everything is under OS control. To sucker you even more some manufacturers (of "analog synths") have a "Vintage Knob" on their synth. They do this to hide the fact that their so called "analog oscillators" are actually under so much digital control that they start to PHASE. To undo the phasing they have to separate the pitches of the oscillators, hence a "Vintage Knob". If they'd made the oscillators less clinically (truly analog) stable, this wouldn't even be necessary. It would cost more though and their revenue would suffer. They don't want that. They want to be fat and full, on your expense. Why sell a synth for $1200 when a guy is willing to pay $5200? All of the synths in this video are capable of sounding very good. As are the emulations of them in software form. In fact, they've become identical heard in a mix. The question is if you're willing to pay thousands of dollars more just to sit there at night with your pretty, but empty shell of a synth? If your answer is yes, then have fun. The synth manufacturers thank you. They even say so, in the manual. Find my music here: Bandcamp: espenkraft.bandcamp.com/
Sounds like someone has never heard the names Doug Curtis or Dave Rossum before. Just stop. You keep making a fool of yourself cosplaying as an engineer. This sounds like someone trying to talk about hacking on NCIS with how much conflation you are doing with your lack of understanding of the difference between ICs, discrete designs, though hole, and SMD. You need to realize just how insane you are.
I use both hardware and software voice. The two are complementary, the former for feeling and pleasure, the latter for creative amplitude and freedom. Rare are the pseudo-musicians on RUclips who produce something decent from their material. More often than not, they're not musicians, artists or creative people, but simply collectors devoid of any talent. More often than not, they're narcissists, incapable of communicating anything about their “art”, which they lack, and of which they're totally devoid. Neurosis, ego, but above all, easy money, all the more so since algorithmic community formulas based on commitment systematically over-value the most acculturated, the most follower-like, the most addicted, the most ignorant, the most liberticidal individuals. So, losers choose losers, stooges choose stooges like Leader, in all fields and on all the commercial networks we mistakenly call “social”. Most youtubers are swindlers, in the sense that they're impostors. This is very visible in electro music. The more talented a musician is, the less chance he has of breaking through from scratch.
@@spencerscott2044 Someone hurt you bad when you were a kid right? Why so upset man? I'm a nobody RUclipsr talking about something as trivial as a synth. We're not taking blood cancer here.
The Pro-600 and the Matrix 1000 also had digital OSs running their control signals, but are obviously analog synths. Same with the Sequential/Oberheim OB-X8 or Prophet 5. They have analog oscillators, filters and VCAs and aren't VSTs-in-a-box. I can't be bothered to be outraged or to write long essays if you can't be bothered to compare apples and apples. Anyway, yeah, hardware synths are expensive, incisive analysis. There are some top-notch VSTs out there these days from people like GForce and others which will definitely do the job for 5% of the cost of hardware, so that's great advice for anyone who doesn't want to spend his/her money on luxury products.
@@the_furthest_reaches he's saying there's no difference between the sound production of the hardware and the software plugins, ergo it's a scam. I'm not saying it isn't a scam, obviously these thing are crazy expensive (even factoring in R&D costs, good manufacturing, quality control and support vs the Behringer clone (as an example), and niche marketplace). But it's dishonest to say that the sound production of the Prophet 5 (which is analog circuitry with digital control of envs/LFOs) is essentially identical to, say, u-he Repro-5 (which is a digital model). Maybe you like one or the other better or can't tell the difference, but they aren't the same thing and in no way represent the same value, even if you use them for the same task. If the point is, we use these for the same task, so they're the same, then there's no difference between chopsticks, a fork or a sharp stick, either. Maybe Espen should start putting together some videos about how you're being scammed by the fork industry.
@@jeremydbjbjbjb Spot on. It's like standing at the side of the road yelling at drivers because you think busses are better value than cars, when in reality both people get from point A to B. Some people just prefer having their own vehicle. They aren't wrong.
@@the_furthest_reaches the Prophet-5 Rev 4 is as analog as the rev 3. His comments were absolutely ridiculous. Rev 4 *has* a tuning button ;) and weird that I can buy a voice expansion card for it to add 5 more voices....
This is such a strange, aggressive take. First, the premise that real musicians are all software is easily disproven when you watch Cortini, Trent Reznor, St Vincent and others talk about their relationship with hardware. Secondly, “you can get the same sounds from the VST” is 90% true in the literal sound design sense, but not at all true in the actual music you make. It’s like saying that you can draw a drawing with a computer mouse just like with a pencil - you can make a mark, sure, but the mouse is a bad pencil. Programming midi isn’t playing piano. Automation isn’t turning a knob. It’s totally cool to be all digital. I use a LOT of digital synths and plugins myself. love ableton. but make a little more room in your mind for other people to have different ways of creating and please dont be so superior. sure you are a great person. just let people enjoy their own path if they arent hurting someone else
this guy doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. He should see the balance sheet of those boutique companies and see how little profits they actually make. Comparing a hardware synth with a plugin is like comparing apples to oranges. What makes a synth expensive are the buttons, knobs, keys, casing, converters, analog components (VCOs, VCFs, etc.). You don't quite get that experience by fiddling with a mouse.
Fascinating to see someone who regularly drives up the cost of middle-of-the-road retro gear rail against perception-driven pricing with no sense of irony. Just to pick one of the many specious arguments here: I migrated from using solely VST plugins to using mainly hardware "scam synths" for many reasons, not the least of which is the dedicated control surface per synth. However, an unintended benefit is that recreating a sound I recorded on my KARP Odyssey reissue 10 years ago is a hell of a lot easier than even opening a project containing old, unsupported VST instruments. Hardware synths don't vanish into the aether with OS updates, the closure of licensing servers etc. It's the same reason I try to buy music I enjoy on CD rather than rely on my favoured streaming service happening to have the rights to it this week. Components age and wear out, yet the half-life of a virtual instrument is, in my experience, significantly shorter than that of a hardware equivalent. Unfortunately, this video marks a disappointing pivot from the appreciation of old, unloved gear, to poorly-supported outrage bait. Well done, I guess?
Comparing hardware and software products this way completely misses the point. It’s not about the final product. They each serve a unique purpose. It's like arguing that going paintballing is pointless because Call of Duty exists.
@@EspenKraft Well there are scams in audiophile market, but there also legit gear. When you reach about 10k for a system improvements in sound quality become small and price rises exponentially. But I I heard systems that cost from 50 to 300k and they sound phenomenal. For headphones it is much cheaper. You can get DAC amp combo with headphones for about 2-3k.
The irony is that on some of these systems have music playing that is made on a laptop and software costing a total of $1000 or less. Audio systems costing $300K is snake oil. I've heard them as well, and even more expensive and it's totally bollocks.
@@EspenKraft Those systems is not made for music made with laptops. I had experience once when i played "beyond black rainbow" OST vinyl on audio note system. It sounded very bad(you can hear a lot of bad details), but on average hi-fi it sounded good. Then owners of that system played analog recorded jazz record - it sounded phenomenal. To me it is the same with cars. Nowadays you can get sporty saloon car that is fast and very good, but F1 car is miles of ahead in terms of performance.
I use both Behringer and Sequential synths. I don’t use Behringer synths live. This video doesn’t address the needs of live keyboard players: We need nice keyboard actions, solid build quality, reliability, no menu diving and fast boot up times as well as great sound quality. Nord and Sequential are expensive but offer what live players need, hence they’re on stages all over the world. Many expensive synths are aimed at live players.
Fair point. But honestly, most synth users are playing arps at home and turning some nobs. Players who perform synths on stage are really rare imho. I mean bands have become less and less popular over the years, so naturally keyboarders even more unfortunately 😢
@@haderlumpi Agreed, regarding dearth of bands and live players. My point was that perhaps he’s assessing synths without considering their core market: professional musicians.
@@EspenKraft ok. I respect your point of view but I’ve used a Sequential Prophet 6 and Nord Electro 5 exclusively on pro gigs for 5 years - about 250 gigs. They’re great instruments and they’ve never let me down so I don’t consider them overpriced. I used a Deepmind 12 for a while but the keyboard action is bad. If I considered something exclusively as a studio instrument I might feel differently.
Oh my!! Then I must apologize!! What was I thinking just enjoying playing synths and not posting content. Oh no!!! I think I hear the synth police knocking at my door😱
"They can look great, they can feel great.." And THAT'S ALL !!! )))) I sold 26 of 29 hadware synths and feel so happy, because my workflow became a lot easier and convinient. And the time spent for production reduced hugely. And the sound quality inproved a lot. Fuck moden synth manufactures !!!!!!!))))))
I was subscribed to the Roland Cloud but I cancelled it and kept my Jupiter X keyboard, TR-8S and MC-707. Just my opinion, but nothing beats the feel and inspiration of a hardware interface -- VSTs just don't do it for me.
@@TJ-bx5px Yes, why not, indeed. In fact, many current MIDI controllers have better quality keyboards than some of these top brand synths. Also, you can use your favourite keyboard that you feel comfortable with to control many different VST instruments.
You are way off base here, but these kind of comments are fairly typical from someone who hasn't been involved with production of hardware devices. Do you really think that manufacturers like Melbourne Instruments, to take one example, are getting rich off sales of their gear? Hardware is expensive to prototype, source and manufacture. There is also the dealer margin to factor in, which can be significant. Smaller number of units made -> each unit is proportionally more expensive. I'm not sure what side of the bed you woke up on and thought that this was a good video to produce, as it exposes your lack of understanding of the reality of hardware production; you would have been better served doing some research first. Reach out to some manufacturers, ask them what goes into creating their devices, and THEN present your opinion. As it stands, this comes off as wilful ignorance and doesn't really fit with the otherwise high-quality and interesting information on your channel.
@@jptaylor Predicting that someone would set the record straight takes nothing special. A very typical form of argument used these days which sounds good when there’s no one to immediately counter these assumptions. RUclips and social media is a bastion of this false debate. You’re still under the perception this video is 100% on the money. It’s not.
@@jptaylor knowing how to use a particular tool well doesn't equate to understanding the costs or effort involved in it's manufacture. Espen is a smart guy and talented musician, but it hasn't stopped him being wrong about many things in this particular case.
You're 100% right. I myself founded a small HW synth company and was hit in the face with the reality of how high the costs quickly climb with the products. I was shocked at how cheaply Behringer was able to produce their products. Just having the same amount of potentiometers as K-2 would already push the street price of the boutique synths with equal amount of potentiometers well past the Behringers price. Behringer has done lots of business moves which are unique in the musical instrument history: they have their own component factoris AND they build their very own town/city for the sole purpose to have its vry own ecosystem so all the money spent there won't spread outside of that town/city. This ensures the money spent there goes back to Behringer/Music Tribe. This in turn makes the losses of workforce and production as minimal as they can be in theory without using prisoners for workforce. Because of this they can manufacture their products probably at quarter of the price their competition can. Currently no one can challenge their prices.
I agree, it's true for new brands with new synthesizers. But the old brands have largely amortized the costs of r&d, production line, plus the components are surface welded with robots which reduces the cost of labor.
In the end, it comes down to what you want and what you're willing/able to pay for it. I bought the Behringer UB-Xa because I wanted the Oberheim polyphonic OB series synths sound and, although it's a fantastic polysynth and an amazing value for money, I quickly sold it because it didn't meet my expectations. I bought the OB-X8 and it does.
@@AmateurSynthusiastMany of the synths he’s referring to have analog VCOs, or analog filters (or both). The fact that he’s saying ‘anything with a vintage knob is a scam because it’s digital’, EK doesn’t seem to understand that the vast majority of analog instruments are digitally-controlled, for very good reason, like being able to carefully control pitch for doing accurate FM (which a lot of flagships do). There is absolutely nothing scammy about a synthesizer that, in its natural state, will sound so perfect that it lacks character, having some ‘slop’ coded in to the digital controls. To give people what they like about analog, with the kind of features people demand now due to using digital and software synths.
Also... I ve worked with and for some.small and big synth companies and I can tell you these companies are fighting for their survival year after year. You have just spread a ton of misinformation.
@EspenKraft You are a good guy, I always enjoy and respect what you have to say, might not always agree or share your same enthusiams, but you always have a postive attitude. Except for today you obviously woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Btw, I would not be happy if I paid $5k for a fleeting experience with that hooker either, not when you can get the same happy ending for free or little $. The short-lived end result feels the same either way. However, analog and some digital keyboard products we invest in can stay with you for a lifetime and are often better at the end of each day than what you can get for free. And when you compare free software or even paid SW to playing a real analog synth, and not just piping the sound into a mix using a DAW, but actually playing analog synths and some finely crafted digitals directly connected to good quality speakers are two different experiences to the VST experience. Especially analogs. Yes many Digitals/VST's come close, but still don't match up to the musical nature, deep inspiration that say a Jupiter, Prophet, Moog, etc can deliver on. Unless you're hearing is damaged or worn out from old age. In the mix is a different story, but stand alone the act of playing analogs wins that contest every time, especially for the player moreso than the distracted casual listener. And to say or imply the Behringers will break down?? That reputation of theirs has long since vanished, replaced by one that frankly exceeds the other companies you mention, not even considering price. Uli knows how to manufacture, you can't dispute that now. What he' and his team have done is nothing short of miraculous. He brought the dead back to life, and so many of them. And yes all HW does breakdown eventually. But looking at this historically, a lot of my software no longer works on newer operating systems. And most people can't take the time to learn tricks to hack around those modern limitations. So they lose their favorite softsynth. Happened to me with a great C64 SID synth running on an early generation ipad. Whereas my analog hardware from over 30 - 40 ! years ago still works fine and still highly motivates new ideas to make new music. It's all about the sound character. That's where music starts. And that's why people pay the $$$ to get it. Just like anything else in life, the best experiences that outlives the others will cost ya some coin.
Hey, Black Corp here. Jokers? :) Our synths definitely don't cost $6-7000. Currently, our most expensive product is a monster effects processor at $5000. Also they'd be bigger and heavier if they were clones. And we definitely don't think our customers are suckers. We are a small company and I like to think we have a good reputation for taking care of our customers when they have any issues. Mostly, at least.
@@mitchelstephen7536 Thank you. I appreciate Espen's videos, but there have been several youtubers in Europe have been mentioning pricing with VAT, etc and whatever upcharges come along with it. You can get actual pricing from our site. Announcing our gear is $2-3000 higher than it actually is turns people off from buying our stuff. It's been a tough enough market this year as it is. Apologies for the prices the work we put into them result in. We do have a sense of humor, and I can definitely be considered a joker, but we are not pricing our products in a way to treat our customers as suckers.
His pricing is way off for pretty much all the synths mentioned in this vid - not sure if he's doing that on purpose as bait or out of ignorance Keep on rocking, Black Corp 🖤
@@smartti1970 none of our synths are $5000. Our upcoming effects processor, Expander MK2 is. I don’t think you’ll find anything like it for that price though. Would love to know about it if you can think of one.
As he states, I am not Espen Kraft, but I do wonder if where he's located, he gets hit with a large VAT. If you've got a 20% VAT, I presume that would put a $4500 Xerxes closer to the 6 range. But again, I am not Espen Kraft.
I could not disagree with your take any more if I tried. I am fortunate enough to own many of those SCAM synths. So, you can take my opinion with a grain of salt. I didn’t pay anywhere near $7k for my 3rd Wave. It is absolutely the best sounding wavetable synth I have ever owned, and I have owned a lot of them.
As an owner of the desktop module I 100% agree! All of his prices are way higher than even retail! I haven't bought a synth in 4 years till the 3rd wave.
And here I was, thinking that guitarist were the only real suckers, paying hundreds of dollars, (if not thousands;)), for a few dollars of electronics in a nicely designed little metal box 😜 On a slightly more serious note, I would like to warn you about using the word 'scam'. Yes, all the synths that you mention are indeed very expensive. And yes, they are probably overpriced in terms of the material value. But a scam has to include a purposefully incorrect information with the purpose of financial deception. As far as i know, none of them qualiy as a 'scam'. You might want to consider reshooting the video before any of the manufacturers decides it may be an even easier way to make money ;)
The world will burn before I change anything. The only was the video is going down is if RUclips takes it down. That is out of my hands unfortunately. There is nothing for anyone to gain by coming after me, except bad publicity for them and I'd go viral.
@@EspenKraft Something like this: "Do you really need to spend thousands hardware synthesizers? No!". You use words like "scam" and "sucker" which is very disingenuous. For instance the Roland Jupiter X has that lovely sequencer/arp thing that is pretty unique in how you can play with it (a bit like a Korg Karma system). Naturally it's still just a glorified computer with a keybed + knobs but still.. the way you went on about some of these was very click baity. By the way, I really do agree with you almost 100% but the way you put it with all the spliced cringy video clips in between from Wall Street is about as typically click baity as it can get. I like it when you don't try to be so "generic youtuber" and be more yourself. You've grown your audience by being yourself. Don't change now.
I predict there will be a follow up video revealing it was a prank or something. At least I hope so. Otherwise, well, I can just listen to some songs for a fraction of what he charges, so he must be scamming everyone, right? It’s not like the experience is different, and that he has costs including his own living expenses, the hardware gear, the value of his time practicing and writing, etc. Nope, he’s just a scam when I can just put on a bunch of MP3s for free! Anyone who hires him or buys tickets is just a sucker. Right, Mr. Kraft?
Then I suggest YOU make a video with that title. I do things my way, as I've always done, and always will. I'll have these words (in Norwegian) on my tombstone. I will NEVER do what other people expect, demand or desire. It's all going to be on MY terms.
Actually Espen is stating exactly what he says in the video which lines up with the title. clickbait is when the content in the video does not reflect the title of the video at all. So it is not clickbait at all
I remember when this guy made really interesting videos about old romplers and shit. Now he's churning out this sort of clickbait nonsense. I guess he ran out of romplers...
click bait at its finest! I watched your less than stellar video out of boredom because my "vst" I was using froze up so I had to restart fl studio ... the irony. couple points. I own a 3rd wave, Moog sub37 and a trigon. I also am multi platinum , grammy nominated , top billboard producer. there isn't any plugin that sounds better than any of them. Omnisphere is the only that comes close. there is no plugin on the market that can do what the 3rd wave does. im not sponsored by them and I only bought the module. take it from a professional music producer/ engineer, songwriter, sound designer. etc. its not the plane its the pilot. So if the stuff youre making is whack then it's whack. Roland is for sure taking advantage of people and I agree they're getting too expensive. plugins DO NOT sound as good. Again my professional opinion .
I'm not grammy nominated, but completely agree about the 3rd wave. It's an incredible machine and instrument. And that breath taking sound is a testament to the sheer amount of analog filters and components they packed into it. Sourcing those kinds of parts isn't cheap and there's hard data behind the cost of goods when it comes to sourcing and engineering such a machine. I love Groove Synthesis and applaud companies like that who are taking the plunge on innovating synthesizers like that, hoping to recoup their investment to bring their passion to the world. Ignore this bitter man and play on!
I also agree, the 3rd wave is the only synth I bought in 4 years! Nothing sounds as good, the team is amazing. It's a 24 voiced digital moog one. And yes absolutely Roland is a scam, worst big brand synth company in 2024. That's the only thing I agree with. Korg and yamaha made vsts of their flagship instruments to now make them much more affordable for people who just want the sounds. This guy is delusional and gets all the prices way wrong. He's old.
What a load of rubbish. Hardware synths are a lot more expensive to build- not only the components but labour charges to build/test and the metalwork and woodwork too. Software synths have none of these costs.
WTF are you talking about with these ridiculous prices? For example, you called the 3rd Wave a $7000 synth!! It is $3,495.00 at Sweetwater and other retailers. You are finding ridiculous prices for some of these. Maybe you would be less bitter about this if you had a better synth dealer nearby? Aside from that nonsense, let's speak for the synths made in the SF Bay area. This would include the 3rd Wave, the Oberheim, and all the Sequential synths. All of them need to be expensive to be made here. They are proudly designed and build here locally. It is massively expensive to be here, let alone manufacture here. You might think that this isn't worth it to you, but it does allow some of the most creative and consequential synth designers in modern history to still make things for us. Many live here, and all of the people working for them are here. The next generation of those synth designers are here. The manufacturing is here. Made in the USA means something to some people, and unfortunately, it can't be done very cheap. These synth makers are doing something great in a very expensive place to do it, and it gives people who are here an incredible opportunity to do great things. Some people find that worth paying for. I do. Do they make money on it, of course, but it is hardly the rape of the consumer that you make it out to be. With all your net research, I am sure you can figure out how much a simple office space or warehouse costs in San Francisco, one large enough to make a product. You should tape your jaw to your head before you do, cause it will hit the floor. If everything now must be made in some cheap shop in Asia to placate every synth snob, then let those snobs have those synths. I'll enjoy those made with far higher quality that support our local culture. It also should be mentioned that if you look at what some of the original prices were back in the day, and adjust for inflation, all of your whining is a product of how fortunate you have been with some of the cheap gear available. Note that the stuff built like the old stuff tends to have the higher price. Have you ever manufactured anything? All the metal in those cases is already hugely expensive. The use the good parts, keybeds, metals, etc. They are offering a product for those who want those things. That's not a rip off. People who can only afford software are simply not who they are made for... and so what? I'd have agreed with you about Moog. I got the 16v One and felt ripped off. The 8k it cost was simply waaaaaaay too high. It didn't sound remarkable to me, so I traded it for 3 other synths. Then I hear you comment that the Moog Muse is 5k... again, you way inflate the prices. It is about $3,495.00, on average. that's 1.5k difference! WTF is going on with your numbers? Many of these synths simply don't cost what you say they do.
@@meskisable That sounds like European taxes and dealers making money, how is that the fault of synth designers in the USA? He showed a doubled price for the 3rd Wave, and $1500 more for the Muse. Buy them in the US and ship them to Europe then. We have certainly done that with some European gear when it made sense. Point is, taking the very craziest price you can find isn't a good point against a manufacturer who is clearly not taking anything close to that as a profit.
I own 7 pieces of Uli gear (3 synths, 1 DM, some ER and the rest is processing gears). There's only one I bought from a thrift store (back when they made bad stuff) that does not work well anymore. All the others are impeccable. Bad luck or luck ? (I'm absolutly not a "fan" or even worst a "commercial" for this company)
The only way I feel scammed is actually believing you knew what you were talking about. Wow. Never in my days have I ever viewed such nonsense. Seriously? I assume when you decide to sell your JP8 you will let it go for the same price as Uli's clone? (just so you are not "scamming" me?) Watched your channel for years, I am disappointed that it seems you lack so much basic understanding of synth design & manufacture, and inherent behaviours of analog synths. Everyone is entitled to an "Informed opinion". but this is so misinformed it's crazy. Yes soft synth and modelling is getting better, but they are not there yet, that aside, once the development costs of a VST are over, there are ZERO manufacturing costs, just a website holding files, no faulty parts or labour to worry about post development, no real life warranties covering repairs etc. (and where is the hands on with VST)? Im sure you'll understand that with buying the RETROAKTIV controllers for your Juno etc... Now....3rd Wave...that really made me laugh. I can 100% tell you have not even had your hands on one of these. it is not "Just a PPG", it has the best wavetable capabilities I have ever seen, the Waveforms are the best I've heard, the VA Waves are outstanding, and all this run through 24 x Dave Rossum-designed 2140 analog low-pass filters with variable saturation. It can Sample, it can be 4 independent 6 voice synths all with dedicated fx and outputs, it can be 2 x independent 12 voice synths, or one colossal 24 voice beast. Can do Binaural, It sequences, and if you can tell me which VST can offer the quality and versatility and that the 3rd wave does (with hands on) then I will eat my boots. "Vintage Knobs mean something is afoot?" - because synths are so well designed to allow musicians to have complete control (so more stable), the vintage knob is simply a way of adding further variance into not only tuning but envelope timings and various other parameters. But if we don't want that, we can dial it back. The components in old synths were far more prone to temp changes, but as the world developed so did components, smaller, less susceptible to heating up, which in turn made the synths far more stable. it was the musicians who wanted the variance/vintage back, and it was delivered. "why cant they let Oscillators go wonky, and have an autotune button?" - They do, they are analog, inherently wonky, again proves to me you haven't really played any of these synths you are trying to throw under the bus, because each does drift, and when they do, there is an autotune button to remedy. (obviously not in the 3rd wave) Prices PolyBrute 12 - You Quoted $5000 to $6000??? - Actual Price $3499 with free shipping (Way Off) UDO "Super6 Gemini" - Actually two different synths not one instrument. Black Corporation you Quoted $6000 or $7000??? - Actual Price $4299 with free shipping (Way Off) 3rd Wave you Quoted $7000??? - Actual Price $4995 for synth, or $3495 with free shipping (yet again Way Off) Poor choice of video. Enjoy the views on this one, because I feel the rest of your views may drop after this.
I have no JP8s to sell. I don't own any. As for your long reply, I talk about people like you in the beginning of the video. It hurts your butt doesn't it?
Doesn't hurt me. because none of it is even the remotest bit truthful. I know what I've done musically over the years and continue to do so. I just don't demand attention for it. I do however feel this video will hurt your channel. which is a shame. best of luck sir.
Every time I make a video where I talk about topics that interest me I get comments like that; "This video will hurt your channel". ;-) Heard that for years. Yet, my channel is still here, alive and well.
“sca****” is big word, is that you using that to your own viewers? or trying to get attention? we need your view on synth, not how manufactures doing their biz.
10:01 that's inaccurate. All of the modern Behringer synths are exclusively surface-mount. There's no way they could produce the synths they do today at those prices if they were still using through-hole construction. With the move to surface-mount construction, Behringer synths have actually become far more reliable and long-lived than their previous generations of products.
It is also worth mentioning that through-hole versus surface-mount simply doesn't matter except in terms of cost - at least in the case of synthesizers and associated gear. It is just a means of attaching (mechanically and electrically) components to a board. What people often mean when making this claim is that older, often through-hole, components from the 70's and 80's had poorer electrical performance or wider tolerances. This might (and often is) desirable in a synth circuit for sonic reasons. But that aspect is the component itself, not how it was soldered to the board. There may be other reasons to fault Behringer synths, but usage of surface-mount technology isn't one of them.
Smaller pcb traces = less inductance and noise etc. It's not just as simple as SMT vs THT. Also if you looked inside an old CS80 even the massive wiring looms would make a difference vs a modern iteration that would probably use small header connectors between boards.
@@AdamTheAd-vanc3d PCB trace inductance or resistance has absolutely no effect in synthesizer circuits - except for the digital control portion (where it of course has no effect on the sound, just whether the circuit works at all or not)
A lot of lies about prices. 3rd wave keyboard goes for 3.6k, not the 7k claimed. Prophet X is at 2.7k, not what I would call "plummeting." People often do gear purges because they have no creative output, and then later on regret it and try to buy it all back and then some. Looking back at his old videos Espen actually said he loved the sound of the Prophet-X, but now "it sounds like a plug-in." It sounds like depression to me.
You do realize the synths you said are not analog ARE fully analog. Every synth with patch memory has a computer…. Duhhhhh. The 3rd wave has analog filters and drive. Forgot to mention that of course 🤦♂️
Not sure what the point of this is... We are lucky to live at a time where we are spoilt for choice and there are synth for all budgets and needs. If people want and can afford a premium instrument, then great and it's good that boutique manufacturers like UDO have a market and can live off their passion. Yes most sounds can be obtained from plugins and that's great too for people who prefer that experience over a hardware equivalent, but that doesn't make hardware instruments scams, in my humble view...
He's just trying to justify his own recent VST-centric philosophy and troll some people on youtube as he knows what kind of reactions this vid will get I'm sure some people can happily stay in the box and make music that way - but for me I always find the tactile experience of hardware vastly more inspiring and FUN than clicking about at yet another program.. something I do all day for my day job as it is. Hardware puts me in a different head-space. I'd actually like MORE VSTs to be put in hardware form. It'd be nice if some company specialized in it as a service for VST makers
@@bangmateo7481 yes precisely. I don't see where the scam is. There are premium instruments and cheaper instruments. It's not because an instrument is expensive that it is a scam. Is a Steinway or Bosendorfer piano a scam because there are cheaper pianos? Also, boutique manufacturers will always be more expensive that mass production ones... I think Dave Smith would be mildly be offended to be called a scammer after all he's done for the music industry!
@@larsuk9578 your argument would make sense if a flagship hardware VST actually was akin to a Steinway compared to a common cheap piano. But today's "premium instrument" is often just a common cheap piano with expensive marketing.
You don't own a plugin, and never will. You only buy a license valid under said circumstances. If you need to meet deadlines, that's the way to go. I loved Absynth, RIP. The only good value for money plug ins are free ones: if you uodated your os and it no longer works, it did not cost you anything in the first place !
This is a really good point tbh. With everything going subscription based too 'owning' something is becoming harder. Don't pay full price for a Roland or Prophet though, they are overpriced
That's actually what Dave Smith once said in an interview, that he went back into hardware after working on software because he wanted to make instruments that would still work 20 years from now. Having said that, once he realized how much cachet the old stuff had, the prices immediately spiked. Moog is by far the worst offender though. Charging 5k for a re-released Minimoog is insane, and is entirely a result of the sucker factor. It even used to cost 3.5k when they first tried it in 2016...
how can you speak on whether something is overpriced without having worked for one of these synth manufacturers and being in a role where you would be aware of component/operation costs?
very good point. 3rd wave is not going to sell a ton and they've got to make up for the development costs, not to mention everything else that goes along with selling a product. same with any of the other "scams" he mentions.
Yeah, a lot of them are glorified VSTs with knobs, faders and a keyboard. It's a scam. Except when it has wood sides of course. Wood sides change everything....
It's the same thing with station wagons. You roll up in a station wagon people are like "Ugh, gross." you put some wood panelling on that same wagon, It's a whole different game. Peoples eyes fly out of their head and jaws hit the floor. it's all "Ohhh!" "Yeah!". If you know, you know.
I was wondering when someone would release this kind of video. We are at the peak of G.A.S. in the synth world, and synth prices have become ridiculous. You're right though... musicians are the easiest people to market to, and we all fall victim of it. Behringer's pricing proves it doesn’t have to be this way. Sure, it's mass-produced on a PCB in China, but does building it by hand somewhere else justify a 10-20x price hike? I got my Model D for $160 instead of paying $5K for vintage gear that's 50 years old and falling apart! Sure, the argument for R&D costs: Let’s say you spend $1M on salaries and prototypes. You could price it with a $1000 markup, sell 1,000 units, and break even (like ASM does), or jack the price up $5K and pray a few rich collectors bite (3rdWave's approach). I suppose debt is temporary and flex is forever, right? Josh Scott at JHS said it best in a video a while back: Behringer is Sweetwater's top seller by a mile. No one's saying you should make cheap junk, but when you price fairly, people respond. Great video, Espen! But we might have to fight about my Muse though :)
The term ‘scam’ is far more relevant in the world of prestige electric guitars by Fender and Gibson. New synthesizers have research and development costs, a Les Paul is a block of wood with basic electronics in production since the 1950s.
And I guess that's why a Zynthian cost around $500 and is several synths, effects and a DAW in a box? R&D my arse, I own over 100 synths and exactly what Espen says is true, I've returned many of the new bigbrand synths the quality is questionable for the price.
Cheap guitars became incredible in the last couple of years, I've had a Jackson that retails for around 130 dollars and it played better than Mexican Fenders I had a chance to try. And sound wise it sounded like an electric guitar with humbuckers.
@@dindinbre Yes. Harley Benton/Thomann also very good. Factory workers probably paid badly, though…I was looking at the price of the Murphy Labs, artificially distressed Gibson guitars. Ridiculous! Even standard Gibsons are the same as a prestige synth.
It's also more relevant in the world of guitar pedals. They literally put a new coat of paint on decades old circuits though some of them at least change a capacitor or two so it's an "new" circuit.
@@TheExtremenarcissist yea, and when it comes to guitars, they all sound very similar if their pickup configurations are similar (it really comes down to looks and logo on the headstock), while if you want a specific synth sound, you need to have that specific synth (or something that clones it *khm khm Behringer*)
Couldn’t agree more. I think even my Prophet 10 Rev4 almost fits this category. Thank goodness for my 1973 MiniMoog, MemoryMoog, JD800 and DX7 as well as the old 80s samplers. It’s all about the converters and filters.
The OB-X8, Third Wave, and modern synths do not sound at all like modern VSTs. I should know, because I own most all of both. This reads as “old man yells at cloud”. God save we have nice things like motorized knobs, presets, configurable envelopes, effects units, and tuning stability.
First for everyone getting mad. He has always changed his mind on stuff, people can do that. I remember him pushing, yes, very clearly pushing for people to get upgrades on their vintage gear, then he made a video shortly after saying how it ruined the "vintage" aspect of it. I don't mind Espen's opinions, as much as his constantly contradicting himself, and never addressing it to his audience. THAT, is the unprofessional poorly executed part of all this, people have a right to change their minds, but be respectful to your audience, acknowledge you're talking out your bum most of the time, and that you likely will change your mind again, again, and again. Maybe also be aware of you're own contradictions, and not talk like you weren't the one drinking your own kool-aid just weeks prior.
This is subjective ...its the same with any product . stereos ,cars , its modern marketing to consumers...Some think Apple are the best computer , simply because of a piece of fruit on the case , and apple hype ....Its all about marketing from manufacturer's
Sequential has perfect MIDI implementation, a perfect, intuitive user interface and still provides manuals, spare parts and software for vintage DSI synths like the Poly Evolver. This is a unique, outstanding service that comes at a premium I'm willing to pay. You could of course steal every idea and not invest in any development like Behringer, but I'm not supporting this. The Black Corporation Kijimi has LFOs for pretty much every single knob and is the ONLY polyphonic synth that does that.
I agree and disagree. I almost never buy hardware for sound, I buy it for workflow. When using DAWs I was averaging about 2 finished tracks per year. Since I started using hardware I average about 2 tracks per week and spend the same about of time working on music. It’s also changed how I think about using my DAW and made me think more intentionally about what i want to do.
I see your point, but: There is so much hate here on the internet and you use such a drastic word like “scam”. I met the guys from Groove Synthesis at Superbooth. I think they put lot of effort in this instrument. If you would have met them personally there, would you call them scammers as well? Everyone should choose for oneself if he wants to get into hardware synth. I personally think it is more musical to play an actual instrument. Only my opinion.
I am online as I am in real life. I have no problems meeting people telling it how I see it, but I don't have to be rude about it and just blabber on unmotivated, but in a one-to-one discussion about prices I'd have no problems saying it how it is. I've done so before as well. Some can take it, some cannot.
Espen doesn't seem to have any comprehension of how the prices form with hardware synths when you develop and manufacture them. That's no scam at all, I can guarantee you that.
@@EspenKraft I write a new piece of music once a month. I have done so since the April of 2008, never missing a month. I always have a dealine at the 15th of every single month of the year. So that's 197 songs I've written since 2008 and that's not counting some of the extra songs I wrote outside of that "one per month" system I have in place.
I definitely smell a rat here! Notice that the only synth manufacturers called out are competition for Behringer. There are many expensive hardware synths that are not called out that are entirely digital. Fact check - 3rd Wave price is $4995 and not $7000. I own one. It has analog circuitry beyond the oscillators, is not a PPG clone, but does that bit perfectly, and really makes anything I am working on sound fantastic.
@lesliekirkwood5081. No, Espen is correct. It would cost me 73,000 NOK to order a 3rd Wave from Thomann. That's about 6,800 USD. If I were to buy it from Sweetwater for the price you suggest, the import tax would push it right back up to 73,000 NOK. Remember, not everyone live in the US.
The only thing that matters is your writing ability. Performance, arranging. This is a useless topic if you are a professional. There's no time or need
I get the feeling that the video is trying to stir up negativity just to go viral. Instead, I encourage anyone who resonates with this video to explore the concept of user experience. The quality of a synthesizer isn't measured solely by the sound it produces.
Some of this I agree with (with regards to some synths being overpriced). But the 3rd Wave being a scam? That's hilarious. It's just a PPG clone? Well that's news to me! I own the 3rd Wave and the Waldorf PPG software, the software isn't even remotely close. Could the 3rd Wave be a VST? Sure, although without the analog filter. But that would be one heck of a plugin. People don't seem to realise the 3rd Wave can not only emulate the original PPG, but it can also do modern wavetable synthesis (some of the best I've ever heard), is also a very capable virtual analogue and a sampler, with a fantastic sequencer. Now times that by 4, and you start to understand what's great about the 3rd Wave. The build quality and keybed is also very impressive. It's definitely a premium and one-of-a-kind synth, and its price reflects that. I can see why some might see it as overpriced, but it's not to me and that absolutely does not make it a scam. But I'm not sure this guy actually understands the meaning of 'scam' in this context.
You willing to pay the price is fine by me. I don't care. I just want to warn people about spending that much on something you can get for WAY less, although not in that package admittedly. Hopefully some will see through the scam.
@@EspenKraft But you can't get the 3rd Wave as a plugin for much less - I pointed this out in my comment. You're completely out of touch/wrong about this. I OWN the Waldorf PPG software, it's not remotely the same, that's just the PPG software (which is also horrible to program by the way). The 3rd Wave is much, much more than that. It's ability to emulate a PPG is one small part of that synth.
Sure. I understand that not everyone will be pleased hearing they've been scammed, and you obviously don't see it that way and that's fine too. I never said the 3rd Wave isn't a great instrument, I'm questioning the price.
@@EspenKraft Nothing wrong with questioning the price, but you could do that without claiming 'scams' and stating software exists, when it doesn't. Expensive hardware doesn't = scam. Either you're misunderstanding the term, or this is intentional for controversy/views. There could be healthy discussions here about what you actually get for your money in regards to some of these expensive synths.
Yes, I could. But I don't do it like that. I like to word things on the more extreme side. I am here as I am in life, 100% true to my inner voice. Some hate me for that, some love me. I like that. I'd rather have some on either side of the spectrum than everyone in the middle, indifferent. I see this as a scam, you don't. That's fine.
Way to shit on a company like Groove Synthesis who’ve worked hard to create a niche product, continually updated it, and unfortunately exist in 2024 when even basic human necessities are expensive. Yep, just out to make money and fuck over the consumer.
6:24 way off there, man. They're running FPGAs, not software emulations. Essentially indistinguishable from actual hardware Also Roland cloud sucks shit lol
This is a common misconception from the early days of Roland's ESC2/BMC chips when we didn't know what they were and were trying to brainstorm what could be running ACB (their "analogue circuit behaviour") - the same chips are used for Zen Core and the shitty "ABM" templates. In reality these are quad core ARM SoC chips.. which also explains the 4 voice from single chip thing running (heavy) ACB on the boutiques as Roland were too cheap to put 2 chips in Jupiter-X/Juno-X also just have a paltry single chip, but Zen Core is easier to run as it's less authentic and just a general VA engine
@@AmateurSynthusiast Spoken like a person with ‘amateur’ in their screen name (sorry you kinda asked for it by making a blanket generalization about a demographic you have no first-hand experience with)😉. I’m not a collector, i’ve never posted a pic of my rig anywhere. I don’t discuss my gear much with friends. I’m a 35+ year audio & music professional. I bought a Prophet X because the sound is simply jaw-dropping. The stereo Prophet filter Dave Rossum designed, is also used in believe in the UDOs and 3rd wave. When clients get my stuff, they’re often like ‘The synth sounds amazing!’ And i get hired again. I can’t speak for anybody else, but what i can say is, professional musicians are a real existing market. And these products are for them. I’m not sticking up for Roland, their flagships are absolutely overpriced, as their economy of scale is closer to Behringer, and they cut corners on build and UI. But smaller companies are legitimately just making the best-quality instruments they can. If you don’t need one, buy something else. But i will say, i sold some of my older vintage gear (which often needed servicing checkups) to buy the Prophet. And once it got into my studio, i sold 2 other synths that year, because i simply wasn’t using them anymore. Not only has that synth already paid for itself many times over, i actually reduced the amount of gear in my studio. Personally, i’m a professional user who invests in my business. And yes, i absolutely bought the synth, not the status.
It would have been great if you could have provided some actual data to substantiate your claim. Having built a diy polysynth the costs of electronic components can go way above 1200$ Not taking in account the design and build process. Assuming synth manufacturers are scammers is wild and disrespectful. Or did I miss something?
IGS Rubberbands 500... I thought the same about it as you did, and in that moment I said to myself, "this guy REALLY has an ear for sound." But I must say that even in an actual, cheap desktop synth, like a Behringer Odyssey... you're getting Pure Analog, Electricity, Pumping through that thing... I can hear the WARM buzzing and fuzzing like a heart attack, it's unmistakable; and IF someone were to even imply they were going to get "the same sound" from a VST, they better drop dead. Because if THAT were true, we'd all be selling our hardware synths, and freeing up half a room, and buying motorcycles or putting down payments on homes. Case in point, I personally feel that "Arminator" a free VST is THEE BEST CS-80 replicant by far, yet... I wouldn't ever say it's ANYWHERE CLOSE to The Real Thing, cause it's not... and I'm sure you know this. But what you said about the Jupiter X (and others like it), yes... some synth manufacturers happen to be Extremely Milking the DIGITAL side of things, KNOWING that the broad customer base isn't going to be concerned with high quality electronics or analog filters. HOWEVER, there are some Analog/Digital Hybrids that- to me- are priced fairly, like the Summit. (Not just for it's analog components, I regard it as an modern day Engineering Masterpiece) Returning to outboard gear, and I don't believe this matter is simply confined to digitality. Why do you think the IGS Rubber Bands doesn't exist in VST form? (Because it'd be a total bastardization of it's ANALOG original) At the end of the day: Circuitry Is Important- not easily replaced with digital emulations, which often fall short. My Antelope Amari is also a piece of outboard gear with but a few moveable knobs, and is basically... A COMPUTER, if you think about it. But let's also think about the fact that there's not a single VST we could load on our own computers that can emulate what it does As Well As It Does It. And the exact same thing can be said for the processing power of a computer like The Novation Summit, which also has ANALOG Circuitry. I'm just, not at all, in the party of people who feel like they can earnestly delude themselves and say that they're "going to get the same sound from a 100% digital emulation". No Way Dude, NO WAY! Is it true that The Commoner, and at times, even PROs in a blind test may choose a digitally emulated sound over The Real Thing? Yes, it is true, and I've done it myself at times... but does it completely invalidate the argument that there's a large number of us who Ultimately prefer the sound of ANALOG far more, and will buy ANALOG and pay ANALOG prices? There's a reason why we do, and that's because the sound is incomparable. And whether 90% of the people who listen to our synth work can tell the difference, or not, isn't ultimately important to us when we purchase that next hardware analog synth... it's because WE know it's better, and that matters to us That Much. In cases where synths are yes, overvalued initially by the maker... they will be price dropped through lack of sale, OR the used market, the everyday man, will determine what a used one is now worth. And Thank God for the used market! When I got a used Novation Summit in MINT condition for 1400 USD, in the original box, with the plastic still on it, I felt like I was getting a deal. When I purchased a used Prophet 08 in Good condition for 1000USD, I felt I scored pretty good; considering I actually prefer it over the Rev 2, and feel that the used market has a way of devaluing synths that I personally find valuable to MY OWN ear- which the market may feel, ultimately, obverse to... and in this way treasures can be found. I feel like there's Merit in what you're saying Mr. Kraft, but for your argument to work; it has to be More Specific. As A Blanket Statement? It's got some holes in it.
Wow up until this point I sort of thought he was knowledgeable... This is insane...??? Is this a very elaborate April Fools to be revealed in 7 months? What gives?
I unsubscribed 2 years ago and somehow this video was in recomendations. This channel became from a positive 80s synth geek place to a confused dying channel with old grumpy guy.
If that is true, then why is the number of subs going up? It's because I still pump out a lot of quality videos that people enjoy and find useful and inspiring. When I do the occasional "opinion video" people like you come out whining about how much better things were when you weren't challenged. You've obviously come to despise. Just move out.
@@EspenKraft telling someone they don't matter is mean, petty and uncalled for. There's no need for that kind of behaviour - even if you disagree with someone, they're still a human being who does matter and deserves a basic respect. Your conduct is disgusting to me. I definitely won't be subbing.
I have owned a lot of synths over the years and played many others in studios and while you may be right about the fuse et al the 3rd wave is a very special synth and fully worthy of its price in my opinion. it's like buying a handmade guitar by a master luthier. when you hear it with your own ears in the flesh it's a complete masterpiece and considering the prices its vintage peers go for it's a bargain. I bought the microwave plugin, it's great but nothing close. I owned a microwave 1 and have played the 10k+ wave and this thing stands up to them and presents a whole universe of other super modern possibilities. I've learned some great lessons on this channel but you are way way off in your opinion of the 3rd wave.
@@JorbLovesGear They definitely give more control, flexibility and easier to implement (if a synth has digital control part), but end result depends on particular implementation, which is not always flawless (for example the update rate might much lower than it would be in the analog envelope).
Flagship prices are being "adjusted" now, a lot more next year. Seeing many used ones being sold at $1K-$2K depreciation. When Hydrasynth Deluxe went on sale for $1500, I saw it as the bargain. Then they updated the O.S. and it is a Poly AT beast. Used synths I love are, Novation Ultranova ~$350, Studiologic Sledge Black ~$600, DeepMind 12 or 12D $500-$600, Take 5, a stretch at ~$1000... just to name some. If manufacturers want to pry $3K+ from me, the synth needs to have a lot of magic above and below the hood.
I got deepmind 12d for a ridiculous bargain, new. I just cought the right moment, it's 1.5 times more expensive now in my country then what i paid less than 2 years ago. Such a beautiful synth, for so cheap! I sold my Nord Rack 2X just before, and then i felt bad for the guys who bought it, they seemed so involved with music, but that money i asked did obvisouly not come easy. I definitely should have gone down 10%, if i knew i was about to hit that bargain with Deepmind. I was about to bring it down anyway, now i feel bad, as if i ripped them off.
Although you have a point, don't underestimate the cost of actual hardware. A case with faders, buttons, lights, controllers, I/O, power supply, mainboard and cabling is expensive. For a well built synth like the Juno X the parts-list easily adds up to $1000. And that's excluding development cost, marketing, labour, support and shipping. So the $2000 retail price for a Juno X seems not so bad after all. But $5000 or 7000 for a synth with a similar parts list? Yes: that is scammy.
I love your videos, but to be honest I think this comes down to complaining about capitalism. You don't have to buy that synth. Capitalism in healthcare or food is a far bigger issue..
I disagree. I have a Hydrasynth, and it doesnt hold a candle to my Prophet 10 in sound quality or the enjoyment I get from playing it. And no. - the Arturia VST of the Prophet 5 is not as good as the real thing. but these days VSTs now sate my G.A.S. appetite
I love my Hydrasynth Explorer. Such a bargain. But why inflate the prices of some of these hardware synths by 2+ times? Are these prices in AUS currency? The Polybrute 12 lists for $4000 where I live, and the Moog Muse lists for $3500. I really want the Polybrute 12, but my back is not what it used to be so I wouldn't be able to take it to gigs which is what I'd want it for. And I don't use my laptop for gigs as I've seen too many horror stories even though my Windows laptop rarely crashes and midi issues are few and far between.
Nonsense. I dont believe that even the OP believes his own sensationalism. Let's say youre a keyboard player. Would you prefer to play: a. a laptop with a midi controller, with all the headache and failure points of a general use OS, a DAW, plugins, latency, buffers, and digital audio clocking etc. oorrrr a beautiful and slick hardware version of the 'same thing' with all the hands on, 1-1 parameters at your fingertips? And what are the criteria that makes any of these a 'scam'? digital synth? DCOs? is a sampler a scam? how about if it has an analog filter section? Nonsense. Humerous video anyways, I just dont believe you :)
When it comes to workflow, plug-ins are much, much better than hardware. You have to route the hardware, deal with mono signals, set up midi correctly, handle the saving of patches or program changes IF you can even save patches, otherwize take photo of the patch or just render to audio and forget about any type of recall. With plug-ins everything works from the get go and everything is saved together with the song. Zero hassle. All workflow. OS i no trouble at all these days and everything is 100% stable for me with Cubase and Reason. I own both and although hardware can be fun to work with, plug-ins are so much faster and much more convenient, workflow wize,
Oops, I got scammed. On that note, anyone know where to find a copy of reFX Vanguard that runs on a modern computer? Or how to transfer my Albino 3 license to a modern version? Or SaxLab? Or how to get a working copy of the synths included in those older versions of Fruity Loops from 2001? Pick your battles, I guess.
The Blofeld basically shows what a hardware digital synth should cost at maximum. That's technology from 2007, whose features have not been surpassed still (Hydrasynth does not match it in multi-timbrality and polyphony). It seems Waldorf keeps manufacturing it to make exactly that point. Some recent synths KingKorg Neo and Roland Gaia 2 also seem to cost hundreds of € above their feature set.
The Blofeld shows what an actual VST in a box with only 4 super cheap encoder knobs should cost. I had one, sold it - wasn’t bad at all, but did nothing for me. Bring on all the Sequentials - I use my Trigon on everything, sounds incredible. Use the Prophet and Take 5 a little less so, but there is still an enormous difference between something like that and a Blofeld, which has virtually none of the knob-per-function advantages of a hardware synth - you’re much better off sticking with the Largo.
@@swid_swid_swid I agree the UI isn't that accessible. There is always hidden settings active somewhere (1-5 knob presses/turns away) you forgot were active. Things like its multi-mode and patch saving need a precise operation of knob/dial combinations, or you'll accidentally lose something...
So much to unwrap here...... But the bottom line is simple. The level of ignorance about the MI industry and the professional music world shown here is extraordinary. EVERYONE is totally entitled to an opinion, as controversial or divisive as it may be, but at LEAST always come at things from a place of knowledge and experience. The worst thing is simply that he creates an aura of such knowledge and authority on the subject matter but hasn't the first clue of what goes into producing and bringing a synth to market and how they are then used in a professional environment. He's all of a sudden more bothered about getting the "clicks"! Up until now I've mainly enjoyed Espen's view of synths and tech, mainly because being a similar age we have had much of the same experiences when using the same vintage of synths, but I don't know what he's been smoking or why he suddenly wants to talk bollocks but so much of this video is simply rubbish. Please Espen, just go back to making videos about specific '80's synths that you've bought, OR talk to some people actually IN the industry, THEN come back and make a follow up video to this.
I have to agree with Espen to a point on this one. Most vsts will wipe the floor with most hardware synthesizers. It has been this way in the last decade or so. Look at Serum, Native Instruments Reaktor, Arturia etc. I own a Roland Fantom 6, Novation Summit, Roland Gaia, JP-8000, Korg Prophecy, Akai Force but some of these I bought to be stand alone in case I don't have my computer and they offer more than just extra sounds. Much of the new synths are WAY over priced for what they offer. Why would I spend 3-4 thousand dollars on a synth with 4-8 damn voices and can't even save a preset? Who cares if it is analog that is ridiculous. He is also right in that all these gear addicts rarely make any music or release anything. It is a good way to go into debt and lose everything you have as well for something like a status symbol.
If I had a nickel for every time this year I've seen an old synth guy on youtube make an absolute buffoon out of himself whining about hardware synths I'd have two nickels! which isn't a lot but it's weird it happened twice
The biggest scam is talentless music influencers like this guy spewing rubbish, crapping on companies that make awesome US made instruments. I would like to see him bring his laptop, interface and a midi controller to a punk show. Andrew huang, heinbach and this guy should make cooking shows and stop scamming for views, none of them have released good music, they should do iPhone unboxing videos
I'm definitely the tinkerer type myself, lol. I don't really even produce music, since I mostly keep busy with other things nowadays. I just enjoy listening to different sounds and seeing what happens when I turn a knob.... then again I don't have a rack of synths or anything. In fact I only just bought my first one this weekend and it's not arrived yet. I started quite strong, with Expressive E's osmose, actually hoping to try and break through that "tinker only" barrier with it though it's not my main goal of getting it. It's kinda funny hearing you say those other synths should be avoided because they're digital, when the digital synth engine inside of osmose is a huge part of why I got it (plus I've just been an mpe fanatic for years, but my tiny sensel keyboard is kinda hard to use because of it's size). None of this is to say you're wrong though. I do see your point and I think making the right choices is important. I hope Osmose was the right choice for me and I feel like it isn't the same type of scam as what you're talking about. One point of defence I can bring up against this video is the ease. Having multiple sets on keyboards on hand, each making a different noise, and having them in a physical space where you can move from one sound to the next without having to use a computer at all sounds like a great way to make jamming out easier... then again, you can definitely achieve the same effect with multiple midi keyboards connected to diffrent VSTs, or even different instances of the same VST. And now the only argument remaining would be "to each their own" lol.
0:20 "Pay attention to these people who will attack me in the comments. Remember I told you that they would! They don't make music like I do." This sounds like the rambling of some sort of strange fascist dictator trying to hang onto a strand of power. Trump uses these strategies. Espen- you be you, live and let live; applaud those who buy or collect hardware for their own passionate reasons as they are enjoying their lives. This is sad.
I am surprised to see how this video pushed the buttons of the synth community 🤭 I agree with your thoughts 💭 the truth can be hard to hear at times… Many bedroom musicians drowning in debt with a collection of synths and very little music put together need to wake up. This hilarious video was a lot of fun to watch! Thank you, Espen! :)
I also once had a Producer Switch Moment, similar to Leland. In the early 2000s I was working for a SpecialFX unit here in Germany, working on some Shots for a Fantasy Movie. One take was a hand that was supposed to be surrounded by some magical energy field. The director drops by to see what I've done. I give him a pre-rendering and he says “OK so far, but can you make it a bit bluer, less red? And a bit more movement and sparkles in the energy field!” So I make a duplicate of the effect group in After Effects, change the parameters and start the pre-rendering. “Great, that's exactly how I wanted it!” At that moment, I realize that I've accidentally rendered him the old version instead of the new effects group. Humans Perception... such a nasty thing!
The best troll video! Bravo, Espen! Please make a video about synth collectors and their tiny cheap studio monitors. Hardware synths are about sound character and INSPIRATION. Muse and 3rd Wave are amazing instruments. Price tag is ok because there are no decent alternatives.
"The illusion has become real, and the more real it becomes, the more they want it". - Gordon Gecko
Synth manufacturers think you're a sucker. Why sell a synth for $1200 when the guy is willing to pay $5200?
This is what the synth manufacturers count on when they set out to sell you their new flagship synth. Same for analog or digital synths. It doesn't matter. As long as the potential customer sees the synth as "High End", the illusion has become real and he will pay up.
Same as in the Audio Hi-fi world where Hi-fi Audio manufacturers still suckers people into believing that a speaker cable costing $1000 per meter is better than the lamp wire you get for $1 per meter. Ohm's law doesn't apply to them. They think.
Analog synths have usually been associated with a higher cost due to electronics inside, but new "analog" synths are in fact more digital than ever. Discrete components are not what makes up analog synths any more. Now it's all surface mounted chips and CPU's are running things. Everything is under OS control.
To sucker you even more some manufacturers (of "analog synths") have a "Vintage Knob" on their synth. They do this to hide the fact that their so called "analog oscillators" are actually under so much digital control that they start to PHASE. To undo the phasing they have to separate the pitches of the oscillators, hence a "Vintage Knob". If they'd made the oscillators less clinically (truly analog) stable, this wouldn't even be necessary. It would cost more though and their revenue would suffer. They don't want that. They want to be fat and full, on your expense.
Why sell a synth for $1200 when a guy is willing to pay $5200?
All of the synths in this video are capable of sounding very good. As are the emulations of them in software form. In fact, they've become identical heard in a mix. The question is if you're willing to pay thousands of dollars more just to sit there at night with your pretty, but empty shell of a synth? If your answer is yes, then have fun. The synth manufacturers thank you. They even say so, in the manual.
Find my music here:
Bandcamp: espenkraft.bandcamp.com/
Sounds like someone has never heard the names Doug Curtis or Dave Rossum before.
Just stop. You keep making a fool of yourself cosplaying as an engineer. This sounds like someone trying to talk about hacking on NCIS with how much conflation you are doing with your lack of understanding of the difference between ICs, discrete designs, though hole, and SMD.
You need to realize just how insane you are.
Expressive E Osmose?
You forgot Waldorf Quantum and Iridium the epitome of VST in a box.
I use both hardware and software voice. The two are complementary, the former for feeling and pleasure, the latter for creative amplitude and freedom. Rare are the pseudo-musicians on RUclips who produce something decent from their material. More often than not, they're not musicians, artists or creative people, but simply collectors devoid of any talent. More often than not, they're narcissists, incapable of communicating anything about their “art”, which they lack, and of which they're totally devoid. Neurosis, ego, but above all, easy money, all the more so since algorithmic community formulas based on commitment systematically over-value the most acculturated, the most follower-like, the most addicted, the most ignorant, the most liberticidal individuals. So, losers choose losers, stooges choose stooges like Leader, in all fields and on all the commercial networks we mistakenly call “social”. Most youtubers are swindlers, in the sense that they're impostors. This is very visible in electro music. The more talented a musician is, the less chance he has of breaking through from scratch.
@@spencerscott2044 Someone hurt you bad when you were a kid right? Why so upset man? I'm a nobody RUclipsr talking about something as trivial as a synth. We're not taking blood cancer here.
Good video. Spend less on synths, spend more on escorts. Point taken.
: ))))
FORD Escorts, I hope :)
@@RudyAdrian I hear those have a smooth ride.
That is indeed the point, as long as you also have enough in your savings account for the taxidermy of your mother-in-law.
@@hakonsoreide 🤣
I'm Espen Kraft and you're not 😂
Someone is desperately trying to recruit haters as followers
Truly the saddest part of the internet - and a moment I wish youtube had a block function
@@RJ_Eckie yeah, all people who cannot tolerate a different opinion think like you
Yep. The truth of Espen is a tough pill to swallow for many.
@@jptaylor truth of Espen? hahahaha! your personal mesiah!
@@audiouy331 If you want corporate synth companies to be your messiahs, go right ahead.
The Pro-600 and the Matrix 1000 also had digital OSs running their control signals, but are obviously analog synths. Same with the Sequential/Oberheim OB-X8 or Prophet 5. They have analog oscillators, filters and VCAs and aren't VSTs-in-a-box. I can't be bothered to be outraged or to write long essays if you can't be bothered to compare apples and apples. Anyway, yeah, hardware synths are expensive, incisive analysis. There are some top-notch VSTs out there these days from people like GForce and others which will definitely do the job for 5% of the cost of hardware, so that's great advice for anyone who doesn't want to spend his/her money on luxury products.
He’s referring to the sound engines being VSTs though, no?
@@the_furthest_reaches he's saying there's no difference between the sound production of the hardware and the software plugins, ergo it's a scam. I'm not saying it isn't a scam, obviously these thing are crazy expensive (even factoring in R&D costs, good manufacturing, quality control and support vs the Behringer clone (as an example), and niche marketplace). But it's dishonest to say that the sound production of the Prophet 5 (which is analog circuitry with digital control of envs/LFOs) is essentially identical to, say, u-he Repro-5 (which is a digital model). Maybe you like one or the other better or can't tell the difference, but they aren't the same thing and in no way represent the same value, even if you use them for the same task.
If the point is, we use these for the same task, so they're the same, then there's no difference between chopsticks, a fork or a sharp stick, either. Maybe Espen should start putting together some videos about how you're being scammed by the fork industry.
@@jeremydbjbjbjb Spot on. It's like standing at the side of the road yelling at drivers because you think busses are better value than cars, when in reality both people get from point A to B. Some people just prefer having their own vehicle. They aren't wrong.
@@the_furthest_reaches the Prophet-5 Rev 4 is as analog as the rev 3. His comments were absolutely ridiculous. Rev 4 *has* a tuning button ;) and weird that I can buy a voice expansion card for it to add 5 more voices....
This is such a strange, aggressive take. First, the premise that real musicians are all software is easily disproven when you watch Cortini, Trent Reznor, St Vincent and others talk about their relationship with hardware. Secondly, “you can get the same sounds from the VST” is 90% true in the literal sound design sense, but not at all true in the actual music you make. It’s like saying that you can draw a drawing with a computer mouse just like with a pencil - you can make a mark, sure, but the mouse is a bad pencil. Programming midi isn’t playing piano. Automation isn’t turning a knob.
It’s totally cool to be all digital. I use a LOT of digital synths and plugins myself. love ableton. but make a little more room in your mind for other people to have different ways of creating and please dont be so superior. sure you are a great person. just let people enjoy their own path if they arent hurting someone else
this guy doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. He should see the balance sheet of those boutique companies and see how little profits they actually make. Comparing a hardware synth with a plugin is like comparing apples to oranges. What makes a synth expensive are the buttons, knobs, keys, casing, converters, analog components (VCOs, VCFs, etc.). You don't quite get that experience by fiddling with a mouse.
Fascinating to see someone who regularly drives up the cost of middle-of-the-road retro gear rail against perception-driven pricing with no sense of irony. Just to pick one of the many specious arguments here: I migrated from using solely VST plugins to using mainly hardware "scam synths" for many reasons, not the least of which is the dedicated control surface per synth. However, an unintended benefit is that recreating a sound I recorded on my KARP Odyssey reissue 10 years ago is a hell of a lot easier than even opening a project containing old, unsupported VST instruments. Hardware synths don't vanish into the aether with OS updates, the closure of licensing servers etc. It's the same reason I try to buy music I enjoy on CD rather than rely on my favoured streaming service happening to have the rights to it this week. Components age and wear out, yet the half-life of a virtual instrument is, in my experience, significantly shorter than that of a hardware equivalent.
Unfortunately, this video marks a disappointing pivot from the appreciation of old, unloved gear, to poorly-supported outrage bait. Well done, I guess?
Comparing hardware and software products this way completely misses the point. It’s not about the final product. They each serve a unique purpose. It's like arguing that going paintballing is pointless because Call of Duty exists.
"Perception is everything" would fits well with audiophiles too :)
Hence why I address those in the video description.
@@EspenKraft Well there are scams in audiophile market, but there also legit gear. When you reach about 10k for a system improvements in sound quality become small and price rises exponentially. But I I heard systems that cost from 50 to 300k and they sound phenomenal. For headphones it is much cheaper. You can get DAC amp combo with headphones for about 2-3k.
The irony is that on some of these systems have music playing that is made on a laptop and software costing a total of $1000 or less. Audio systems costing $300K is snake oil. I've heard them as well, and even more expensive and it's totally bollocks.
@@EspenKraft Those systems is not made for music made with laptops. I had experience once when i played "beyond black rainbow" OST vinyl on audio note system. It sounded very bad(you can hear a lot of bad details), but on average hi-fi it sounded good. Then owners of that system played analog recorded jazz record - it sounded phenomenal. To me it is the same with cars. Nowadays you can get sporty saloon car that is fast and very good, but F1 car is miles of ahead in terms of performance.
....or the Apple product in his lap.
I use both Behringer and Sequential synths. I don’t use Behringer synths live. This video doesn’t address the needs of live keyboard players: We need nice keyboard actions, solid build quality, reliability, no menu diving and fast boot up times as well as great sound quality. Nord and Sequential are expensive but offer what live players need, hence they’re on stages all over the world. Many expensive synths are aimed at live players.
Fair point. But honestly, most synth users are playing arps at home and turning some nobs. Players who perform synths on stage are really rare imho. I mean bands have become less and less popular over the years, so naturally keyboarders even more unfortunately 😢
@@haderlumpi Agreed, regarding dearth of bands and live players. My point was that perhaps he’s assessing synths without considering their core market: professional musicians.
I'm a professional musician. I play live too.
@@EspenKraft ok. I respect your point of view but I’ve used a Sequential Prophet 6 and Nord Electro 5 exclusively on pro gigs for 5 years - about 250 gigs. They’re great instruments and they’ve never let me down so I don’t consider them overpriced. I used a Deepmind 12 for a while but the keyboard action is bad. If I considered something exclusively as a studio instrument I might feel differently.
@@EspenKraft Aaah, come on! You played 1 show in 20 years! ahaha
Oh my!! Then I must apologize!! What was I thinking just enjoying playing synths and not posting content. Oh no!!! I think I hear the synth police knocking at my door😱
Anyone who thinks Moog make VST’s in box is in serious need of help
👏👏👏
Espen turns radical into a 80s version of BadGear 😂
😆
Love it!
At first glance, he's ticking all the boxes!
@@atmobeat 🤣 Espen always ticks all the boxes!
Wouldn't it be Bad Kraft then?
"They can look great, they can feel great.." And THAT'S ALL !!! ))))
I sold 26 of 29 hadware synths and feel so happy, because my workflow became a lot easier and convinient. And the time spent for production reduced hugely. And the sound quality inproved a lot.
Fuck moden synth manufactures !!!!!!!))))))
I was subscribed to the Roland Cloud but I cancelled it and kept my Jupiter X keyboard, TR-8S and MC-707. Just my opinion, but nothing beats the feel and inspiration of a hardware interface -- VSTs just don't do it for me.
But why can't someone start making hige end M8di controllers that are cheap, that mimic and looks like real hardware synthesizers...
@@TJ-bx5px there are. If I understand yout comment correctly. Called Dtronics . They have Jupiter8 and so on.
@@TJ-bx5px Yes, why not, indeed. In fact, many current MIDI controllers have better quality keyboards than some of these top brand synths. Also, you can use your favourite keyboard that you feel comfortable with to control many different VST instruments.
@@TJ-bx5px Whoever ends up figuring that one out will MAKE A FORTUNE !
This is just click bait that’s 11 minutes of my life I won’t get back
You are way off base here, but these kind of comments are fairly typical from someone who hasn't been involved with production of hardware devices. Do you really think that manufacturers like Melbourne Instruments, to take one example, are getting rich off sales of their gear? Hardware is expensive to prototype, source and manufacture. There is also the dealer margin to factor in, which can be significant. Smaller number of units made -> each unit is proportionally more expensive. I'm not sure what side of the bed you woke up on and thought that this was a good video to produce, as it exposes your lack of understanding of the reality of hardware production; you would have been better served doing some research first. Reach out to some manufacturers, ask them what goes into creating their devices, and THEN present your opinion. As it stands, this comes off as wilful ignorance and doesn't really fit with the otherwise high-quality and interesting information on your channel.
As predicted by Espen, he knew you’d say this.🤣 The truth is always hard to swallow for many.
@@jptaylor
Predicting that someone would set the record straight takes nothing special. A very typical form of argument used these days which sounds good when there’s no one to immediately counter these assumptions. RUclips and social media is a bastion of this false debate. You’re still under the perception this video is 100% on the money. It’s not.
@@jptaylor knowing how to use a particular tool well doesn't equate to understanding the costs or effort involved in it's manufacture. Espen is a smart guy and talented musician, but it hasn't stopped him being wrong about many things in this particular case.
You're 100% right. I myself founded a small HW synth company and was hit in the face with the reality of how high the costs quickly climb with the products. I was shocked at how cheaply Behringer was able to produce their products. Just having the same amount of potentiometers as K-2 would already push the street price of the boutique synths with equal amount of potentiometers well past the Behringers price.
Behringer has done lots of business moves which are unique in the musical instrument history: they have their own component factoris AND they build their very own town/city for the sole purpose to have its vry own ecosystem so all the money spent there won't spread outside of that town/city. This ensures the money spent there goes back to Behringer/Music Tribe. This in turn makes the losses of workforce and production as minimal as they can be in theory without using prisoners for workforce. Because of this they can manufacture their products probably at quarter of the price their competition can. Currently no one can challenge their prices.
I agree, it's true for new brands with new synthesizers. But the old brands have largely amortized the costs of r&d, production line, plus the components are surface welded with robots which reduces the cost of labor.
In the end, it comes down to what you want and what you're willing/able to pay for it. I bought the Behringer UB-Xa because I wanted the Oberheim polyphonic OB series synths sound and, although it's a fantastic polysynth and an amazing value for money, I quickly sold it because it didn't meet my expectations. I bought the OB-X8 and it does.
Yes and people who pay thousands of dollars for a digital synth are suckers. That’s the point.
@@AmateurSynthusiastMany of the synths he’s referring to have analog VCOs, or analog filters (or both). The fact that he’s saying ‘anything with a vintage knob is a scam because it’s digital’, EK doesn’t seem to understand that the vast majority of analog instruments are digitally-controlled, for very good reason, like being able to carefully control pitch for doing accurate FM (which a lot of flagships do). There is absolutely nothing scammy about a synthesizer that, in its natural state, will sound so perfect that it lacks character, having some ‘slop’ coded in to the digital controls. To give people what they like about analog, with the kind of features people demand now due to using digital and software synths.
"Your mother-in-law's taxidermy" !!!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Can’t get that unnecessary image out of my head.
yea man haha!
I’m sure it was a fine trolling of B manufacturer 😂
See JX-08 review.
Also... I ve worked with and for some.small and big synth companies and I can tell you these companies are fighting for their survival year after year. You have just spread a ton of misinformation.
Yes. This vid is pure ignorant bs. And the schmuck thinks he's being "edgy cool" and "righteous" or something. Sad.
@EspenKraft
You are a good guy, I always enjoy and respect what you have to say, might not always agree or share your same enthusiams, but you always have a postive attitude. Except for today you obviously woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Btw, I would not be happy if I paid $5k for a fleeting experience with that hooker either, not when you can get the same happy ending for free or little $. The short-lived end result feels the same either way. However, analog and some digital keyboard products we invest in can stay with you for a lifetime and are often better at the end of each day than what you can get for free. And when you compare free software or even paid SW to playing a real analog synth, and not just piping the sound into a mix using a DAW, but actually playing analog synths and some finely crafted digitals directly connected to good quality speakers are two different experiences to the VST experience. Especially analogs. Yes many Digitals/VST's come close, but still don't match up to the musical nature, deep inspiration that say a Jupiter, Prophet, Moog, etc can deliver on. Unless you're hearing is damaged or worn out from old age. In the mix is a different story, but stand alone the act of playing analogs wins that contest every time, especially for the player moreso than the distracted casual listener. And to say or imply the Behringers will break down?? That reputation of theirs has long since vanished, replaced by one that frankly exceeds the other companies you mention, not even considering price. Uli knows how to manufacture, you can't dispute that now. What he' and his team have done is nothing short of miraculous. He brought the dead back to life, and so many of them. And yes all HW does breakdown eventually. But looking at this historically, a lot of my software no longer works on newer operating systems. And most people can't take the time to learn tricks to hack around those modern limitations. So they lose their favorite softsynth. Happened to me with a great C64 SID synth running on an early generation ipad. Whereas my analog hardware from over 30 - 40 ! years ago still works fine and still highly motivates new ideas to make new music. It's all about the sound character. That's where music starts. And that's why people pay the $$$ to get it. Just like anything else in life, the best experiences that outlives the others will cost ya some coin.
Hey, Black Corp here. Jokers? :) Our synths definitely don't cost $6-7000. Currently, our most expensive product is a monster effects processor at $5000. Also they'd be bigger and heavier if they were clones. And we definitely don't think our customers are suckers. We are a small company and I like to think we have a good reputation for taking care of our customers when they have any issues. Mostly, at least.
They come at night mostly. Mostly.
Keep up the good work!
@@mitchelstephen7536 Thank you. I appreciate Espen's videos, but there have been several youtubers in Europe have been mentioning pricing with VAT, etc and whatever upcharges come along with it. You can get actual pricing from our site. Announcing our gear is $2-3000 higher than it actually is turns people off from buying our stuff. It's been a tough enough market this year as it is. Apologies for the prices the work we put into them result in. We do have a sense of humor, and I can definitely be considered a joker, but we are not pricing our products in a way to treat our customers as suckers.
His pricing is way off for pretty much all the synths mentioned in this vid - not sure if he's doing that on purpose as bait or out of ignorance
Keep on rocking, Black Corp 🖤
@@smartti1970 none of our synths are $5000. Our upcoming effects processor, Expander MK2 is. I don’t think you’ll find anything like it for that price though. Would love to know about it if you can think of one.
As he states, I am not Espen Kraft, but I do wonder if where he's located, he gets hit with a large VAT. If you've got a 20% VAT, I presume that would put a $4500 Xerxes closer to the 6 range.
But again, I am not Espen Kraft.
I could not disagree with your take any more if I tried. I am fortunate enough to own many of those SCAM synths. So, you can take my opinion with a grain of salt. I didn’t pay anywhere near $7k for my 3rd Wave. It is absolutely the best sounding wavetable synth I have ever owned, and I have owned a lot of them.
As an owner of the desktop module I 100% agree! All of his prices are way higher than even retail! I haven't bought a synth in 4 years till the 3rd wave.
And here I was, thinking that guitarist were the only real suckers, paying hundreds of dollars, (if not thousands;)), for a few dollars of electronics in a nicely designed little metal box 😜
On a slightly more serious note, I would like to warn you about using the word 'scam'. Yes, all the synths that you mention are indeed very expensive. And yes, they are probably overpriced in terms of the material value. But a scam has to include a purposefully incorrect information with the purpose of financial deception. As far as i know, none of them qualiy as a 'scam'. You might want to consider reshooting the video before any of the manufacturers decides it may be an even easier way to make money ;)
The world will burn before I change anything. The only was the video is going down is if RUclips takes it down. That is out of my hands unfortunately.
There is nothing for anyone to gain by coming after me, except bad publicity for them and I'd go viral.
And I think a VST in a box is kinda a scam unless it's disclosed.
Looks like Espen has sold his soul to the mighty click bait Gods. Oh well..
Ok, what title would you put on the video then?
@@EspenKraft Something like this: "Do you really need to spend thousands hardware synthesizers? No!".
You use words like "scam" and "sucker" which is very disingenuous. For instance the Roland Jupiter X has that lovely sequencer/arp thing that is pretty unique in how you can play with it (a bit like a Korg Karma system). Naturally it's still just a glorified computer with a keybed + knobs but still.. the way you went on about some of these was very click baity.
By the way, I really do agree with you almost 100% but the way you put it with all the spliced cringy video clips in between from Wall Street is about as typically click baity as it can get. I like it when you don't try to be so "generic youtuber" and be more yourself. You've grown your audience by being yourself. Don't change now.
I predict there will be a follow up video revealing it was a prank or something. At least I hope so. Otherwise, well, I can just listen to some songs for a fraction of what he charges, so he must be scamming everyone, right? It’s not like the experience is different, and that he has costs including his own living expenses, the hardware gear, the value of his time practicing and writing, etc. Nope, he’s just a scam when I can just put on a bunch of MP3s for free! Anyone who hires him or buys tickets is just a sucker.
Right, Mr. Kraft?
Then I suggest YOU make a video with that title. I do things my way, as I've always done, and always will. I'll have these words (in Norwegian) on my tombstone. I will NEVER do what other people expect, demand or desire. It's all going to be on MY terms.
Actually Espen is stating exactly what he says in the video which lines up with the title. clickbait is when the content in the video does not reflect the title of the video at all. So it is not clickbait at all
I remember when this guy made really interesting videos about old romplers and shit.
Now he's churning out this sort of clickbait nonsense.
I guess he ran out of romplers...
click bait at its finest! I watched your less than stellar video out of boredom because my "vst" I was using froze up so I had to restart fl studio ... the irony. couple points. I own a 3rd wave, Moog sub37 and a trigon. I also am multi platinum , grammy nominated , top billboard producer. there isn't any plugin that sounds better than any of them. Omnisphere is the only that comes close. there is no plugin on the market that can do what the 3rd wave does. im not sponsored by them and I only bought the module. take it from a professional music producer/ engineer, songwriter, sound designer. etc. its not the plane its the pilot. So if the stuff youre making is whack then it's whack. Roland is for sure taking advantage of people and I agree they're getting too expensive. plugins DO NOT sound as good. Again my professional opinion .
I'm not grammy nominated, but completely agree about the 3rd wave. It's an incredible machine and instrument. And that breath taking sound is a testament to the sheer amount of analog filters and components they packed into it. Sourcing those kinds of parts isn't cheap and there's hard data behind the cost of goods when it comes to sourcing and engineering such a machine. I love Groove Synthesis and applaud companies like that who are taking the plunge on innovating synthesizers like that, hoping to recoup their investment to bring their passion to the world. Ignore this bitter man and play on!
I also agree, the 3rd wave is the only synth I bought in 4 years! Nothing sounds as good, the team is amazing. It's a 24 voiced digital moog one.
And yes absolutely Roland is a scam, worst big brand synth company in 2024. That's the only thing I agree with. Korg and yamaha made vsts of their flagship instruments to now make them much more affordable for people who just want the sounds.
This guy is delusional and gets all the prices way wrong. He's old.
What a load of rubbish. Hardware synths are a lot more expensive to build- not only the components but labour charges to build/test and the metalwork and woodwork too. Software synths have none of these costs.
WTF are you talking about with these ridiculous prices? For example, you called the 3rd Wave a $7000 synth!! It is $3,495.00 at Sweetwater and other retailers. You are finding ridiculous prices for some of these. Maybe you would be less bitter about this if you had a better synth dealer nearby?
Aside from that nonsense, let's speak for the synths made in the SF Bay area. This would include the 3rd Wave, the Oberheim, and all the Sequential synths. All of them need to be expensive to be made here. They are proudly designed and build here locally. It is massively expensive to be here, let alone manufacture here. You might think that this isn't worth it to you, but it does allow some of the most creative and consequential synth designers in modern history to still make things for us. Many live here, and all of the people working for them are here. The next generation of those synth designers are here. The manufacturing is here. Made in the USA means something to some people, and unfortunately, it can't be done very cheap. These synth makers are doing something great in a very expensive place to do it, and it gives people who are here an incredible opportunity to do great things. Some people find that worth paying for. I do. Do they make money on it, of course, but it is hardly the rape of the consumer that you make it out to be. With all your net research, I am sure you can figure out how much a simple office space or warehouse costs in San Francisco, one large enough to make a product. You should tape your jaw to your head before you do, cause it will hit the floor.
If everything now must be made in some cheap shop in Asia to placate every synth snob, then let those snobs have those synths. I'll enjoy those made with far higher quality that support our local culture. It also should be mentioned that if you look at what some of the original prices were back in the day, and adjust for inflation, all of your whining is a product of how fortunate you have been with some of the cheap gear available. Note that the stuff built like the old stuff tends to have the higher price. Have you ever manufactured anything? All the metal in those cases is already hugely expensive. The use the good parts, keybeds, metals, etc. They are offering a product for those who want those things. That's not a rip off. People who can only afford software are simply not who they are made for... and so what?
I'd have agreed with you about Moog. I got the 16v One and felt ripped off. The 8k it cost was simply waaaaaaay too high. It didn't sound remarkable to me, so I traded it for 3 other synths. Then I hear you comment that the Moog Muse is 5k... again, you way inflate the prices. It is about $3,495.00, on average. that's 1.5k difference! WTF is going on with your numbers? Many of these synths simply don't cost what you say they do.
In Europe it cost 6k euro.
@@meskisable That sounds like European taxes and dealers making money, how is that the fault of synth designers in the USA? He showed a doubled price for the 3rd Wave, and $1500 more for the Muse. Buy them in the US and ship them to Europe then. We have certainly done that with some European gear when it made sense. Point is, taking the very craziest price you can find isn't a good point against a manufacturer who is clearly not taking anything close to that as a profit.
@@smartti1970 Which is? I checked all the prices before I made the comment.
To be clear, are we talking about the 3rd Wave right now?
@@prophei EU import taxes will take care of the difference unfortunately.
I own 5 Behringer synthesizers and 6 of them have broken.
I own 7 pieces of Uli gear (3 synths, 1 DM, some ER and the rest is processing gears). There's only one I bought from a thrift store (back when they made bad stuff) that does not work well anymore. All the others are impeccable.
Bad luck or luck ? (I'm absolutly not a "fan" or even worst a "commercial" for this company)
Wow, how did the 6th break down? Dementia?
What did you with them. Even my 25 years old mixer works fine. While allen shit was already repaired 3 times...
@@fredrikh9299Your mom sat on it and broke it
@@reddragonrespectI added extra analogue tubes to it and it broke!
The only way I feel scammed is actually believing you knew what you were talking about. Wow. Never in my days have I ever viewed such nonsense. Seriously? I assume when you decide to sell your JP8 you will let it go for the same price as Uli's clone? (just so you are not "scamming" me?)
Watched your channel for years, I am disappointed that it seems you lack so much basic understanding of synth design & manufacture, and inherent behaviours of analog synths.
Everyone is entitled to an "Informed opinion". but this is so misinformed it's crazy. Yes soft synth and modelling is getting better, but they are not there yet, that aside, once the development costs of a VST are over, there are ZERO manufacturing costs, just a website holding files, no faulty parts or labour to worry about post development, no real life warranties covering repairs etc. (and where is the hands on with VST)? Im sure you'll understand that with buying the RETROAKTIV controllers for your Juno etc...
Now....3rd Wave...that really made me laugh. I can 100% tell you have not even had your hands on one of these. it is not "Just a PPG", it has the best wavetable capabilities I have ever seen, the Waveforms are the best I've heard, the VA Waves are outstanding, and all this run through 24 x Dave Rossum-designed 2140 analog low-pass filters with variable saturation. It can Sample, it can be 4 independent 6 voice synths all with dedicated fx and outputs, it can be 2 x independent 12 voice synths, or one colossal 24 voice beast. Can do Binaural, It sequences, and if you can tell me which VST can offer the quality and versatility and that the 3rd wave does (with hands on) then I will eat my boots.
"Vintage Knobs mean something is afoot?" - because synths are so well designed to allow musicians to have complete control (so more stable), the vintage knob is simply a way of adding further variance into not only tuning but envelope timings and various other parameters. But if we don't want that, we can dial it back. The components in old synths were far more prone to temp changes, but as the world developed so did components, smaller, less susceptible to heating up, which in turn made the synths far more stable. it was the musicians who wanted the variance/vintage back, and it was delivered.
"why cant they let Oscillators go wonky, and have an autotune button?" - They do, they are analog, inherently wonky, again proves to me you haven't really played any of these synths you are trying to throw under the bus, because each does drift, and when they do, there is an autotune button to remedy. (obviously not in the 3rd wave)
Prices
PolyBrute 12 - You Quoted $5000 to $6000??? - Actual Price $3499 with free shipping (Way Off)
UDO "Super6 Gemini" - Actually two different synths not one instrument.
Black Corporation you Quoted $6000 or $7000??? - Actual Price $4299 with free shipping (Way Off)
3rd Wave you Quoted $7000??? - Actual Price $4995 for synth, or $3495 with free shipping (yet again Way Off)
Poor choice of video. Enjoy the views on this one, because I feel the rest of your views may drop after this.
I have no JP8s to sell. I don't own any. As for your long reply, I talk about people like you in the beginning of the video. It hurts your butt doesn't it?
Doesn't hurt me. because none of it is even the remotest bit truthful. I know what I've done musically over the years and continue to do so. I just don't demand attention for it. I do however feel this video will hurt your channel. which is a shame. best of luck sir.
Every time I make a video where I talk about topics that interest me I get comments like that; "This video will hurt your channel". ;-) Heard that for years.
Yet, my channel is still here, alive and well.
@@EspenKraft So is the JP8 to your left ;)
It's not mine.
“sca****” is big word, is that you using that to your own viewers? or trying to get attention? we need your view on synth, not how manufactures doing their biz.
Ridiculous video 😂
10:01 that's inaccurate. All of the modern Behringer synths are exclusively surface-mount. There's no way they could produce the synths they do today at those prices if they were still using through-hole construction. With the move to surface-mount construction, Behringer synths have actually become far more reliable and long-lived than their previous generations of products.
It is also worth mentioning that through-hole versus surface-mount simply doesn't matter except in terms of cost - at least in the case of synthesizers and associated gear. It is just a means of attaching (mechanically and electrically) components to a board. What people often mean when making this claim is that older, often through-hole, components from the 70's and 80's had poorer electrical performance or wider tolerances. This might (and often is) desirable in a synth circuit for sonic reasons. But that aspect is the component itself, not how it was soldered to the board. There may be other reasons to fault Behringer synths, but usage of surface-mount technology isn't one of them.
I think that some of them are. Through hole makes things much easier to service.
Smaller pcb traces = less inductance and noise etc. It's not just as simple as SMT vs THT. Also if you looked inside an old CS80 even the massive wiring looms would make a difference vs a modern iteration that would probably use small header connectors between boards.
@@AdamTheAd-vanc3d PCB trace inductance or resistance has absolutely no effect in synthesizer circuits - except for the digital control portion (where it of course has no effect on the sound, just whether the circuit works at all or not)
I have had a couple of Behringer Synths for years. Very reliable. No issues at all.
A lot of lies about prices. 3rd wave keyboard goes for 3.6k, not the 7k claimed. Prophet X is at 2.7k, not what I would call "plummeting." People often do gear purges because they have no creative output, and then later on regret it and try to buy it all back and then some. Looking back at his old videos Espen actually said he loved the sound of the Prophet-X, but now "it sounds like a plug-in." It sounds like depression to me.
I never said the PX sounds like a plugin. Sounds like you need to see a doctor immediately. Check your ears.
You do realize the synths you said are not analog ARE fully analog. Every synth with patch memory has a computer…. Duhhhhh. The 3rd wave has analog filters and drive. Forgot to mention that of course 🤦♂️
And so does the Polybrute if I'm not mistaken!
Not sure what the point of this is... We are lucky to live at a time where we are spoilt for choice and there are synth for all budgets and needs. If people want and can afford a premium instrument, then great and it's good that boutique manufacturers like UDO have a market and can live off their passion. Yes most sounds can be obtained from plugins and that's great too for people who prefer that experience over a hardware equivalent, but that doesn't make hardware instruments scams, in my humble view...
He's just trying to justify his own recent VST-centric philosophy and troll some people on youtube as he knows what kind of reactions this vid will get
I'm sure some people can happily stay in the box and make music that way - but for me I always find the tactile experience of hardware vastly more inspiring and FUN than clicking about at yet another program.. something I do all day for my day job as it is. Hardware puts me in a different head-space. I'd actually like MORE VSTs to be put in hardware form. It'd be nice if some company specialized in it as a service for VST makers
The point is about being scammed.
@@bangmateo7481 yes precisely. I don't see where the scam is. There are premium instruments and cheaper instruments. It's not because an instrument is expensive that it is a scam. Is a Steinway or Bosendorfer piano a scam because there are cheaper pianos? Also, boutique manufacturers will always be more expensive that mass production ones... I think Dave Smith would be mildly be offended to be called a scammer after all he's done for the music industry!
@@larsuk9578 Are you nuts?
@@larsuk9578 your argument would make sense if a flagship hardware VST actually was akin to a Steinway compared to a common cheap piano. But today's "premium instrument" is often just a common cheap piano with expensive marketing.
You don't own a plugin, and never will. You only buy a license valid under said circumstances. If you need to meet deadlines, that's the way to go. I loved Absynth, RIP. The only good value for money plug ins are free ones: if you uodated your os and it no longer works, it did not cost you anything in the first place !
This is a really good point tbh. With everything going subscription based too 'owning' something is becoming harder. Don't pay full price for a Roland or Prophet though, they are overpriced
That's actually what Dave Smith once said in an interview, that he went back into hardware after working on software because he wanted to make instruments that would still work 20 years from now.
Having said that, once he realized how much cachet the old stuff had, the prices immediately spiked. Moog is by far the worst offender though. Charging 5k for a re-released Minimoog is insane, and is entirely a result of the sucker factor. It even used to cost 3.5k when they first tried it in 2016...
This is why I never paid for a plugin.
Lots of free plugins
how can you speak on whether something is overpriced without having worked for one of these synth manufacturers and being in a role where you would be aware of component/operation costs?
very good point. 3rd wave is not going to sell a ton and they've got to make up for the development costs, not to mention everything else that goes along with selling a product. same with any of the other "scams" he mentions.
Yeah, a lot of them are glorified VSTs with knobs, faders and a keyboard. It's a scam.
Except when it has wood sides of course. Wood sides change everything....
We love those real simulated wood grain sides!
I can hear the wood sides.... can't you?
@@lopp3adds natural accoustic resonance, didn't you know?
I think adding X at the end is what makes them apart 😂 an wooden cheeks of course! I wonder how wise Espen felt for it! 😊
It's the same thing with station wagons. You roll up in a station wagon people are like "Ugh, gross." you put some wood panelling on that same wagon, It's a whole different game. Peoples eyes fly out of their head and jaws hit the floor. it's all "Ohhh!" "Yeah!". If you know, you know.
I was wondering when someone would release this kind of video. We are at the peak of G.A.S. in the synth world, and synth prices have become ridiculous. You're right though... musicians are the easiest people to market to, and we all fall victim of it. Behringer's pricing proves it doesn’t have to be this way. Sure, it's mass-produced on a PCB in China, but does building it by hand somewhere else justify a 10-20x price hike? I got my Model D for $160 instead of paying $5K for vintage gear that's 50 years old and falling apart!
Sure, the argument for R&D costs: Let’s say you spend $1M on salaries and prototypes. You could price it with a $1000 markup, sell 1,000 units, and break even (like ASM does), or jack the price up $5K and pray a few rich collectors bite (3rdWave's approach). I suppose debt is temporary and flex is forever, right?
Josh Scott at JHS said it best in a video a while back: Behringer is Sweetwater's top seller by a mile. No one's saying you should make cheap junk, but when you price fairly, people respond.
Great video, Espen! But we might have to fight about my Muse though :)
The term ‘scam’ is far more relevant in the world of prestige electric guitars by Fender and Gibson. New synthesizers have research and development costs, a Les Paul is a block of wood with basic electronics in production since the 1950s.
And I guess that's why a Zynthian cost around $500 and is several synths, effects and a DAW in a box? R&D my arse, I own over 100 synths and exactly what Espen says is true, I've returned many of the new bigbrand synths the quality is questionable for the price.
Cheap guitars became incredible in the last couple of years, I've had a Jackson that retails for around 130 dollars and it played better than Mexican Fenders I had a chance to try. And sound wise it sounded like an electric guitar with humbuckers.
@@dindinbre Yes. Harley Benton/Thomann also very good. Factory workers probably paid badly, though…I was looking at the price of the Murphy Labs, artificially distressed Gibson guitars. Ridiculous! Even standard Gibsons are the same as a prestige synth.
It's also more relevant in the world of guitar pedals. They literally put a new coat of paint on decades old circuits though some of them at least change a capacitor or two so it's an "new" circuit.
@@TheExtremenarcissist yea, and when it comes to guitars, they all sound very similar if their pickup configurations are similar (it really comes down to looks and logo on the headstock), while if you want a specific synth sound, you need to have that specific synth (or something that clones it *khm khm Behringer*)
Couldn’t agree more. I think even my Prophet 10 Rev4 almost fits this category.
Thank goodness for my 1973 MiniMoog, MemoryMoog, JD800 and DX7 as well as the old 80s samplers. It’s all about the converters and filters.
Will there be a story about that very high-class escort?
came here to find out more xxoo
yeh, she wouldn't sleep with him even though he offered 9kusd
The OB-X8, Third Wave, and modern synths do not sound at all like modern VSTs. I should know, because I own most all of both. This reads as “old man yells at cloud”.
God save we have nice things like motorized knobs, presets, configurable envelopes, effects units, and tuning stability.
First for everyone getting mad. He has always changed his mind on stuff, people can do that. I remember him pushing, yes, very clearly pushing for people to get upgrades on their vintage gear, then he made a video shortly after saying how it ruined the "vintage" aspect of it. I don't mind Espen's opinions, as much as his constantly contradicting himself, and never addressing it to his audience. THAT, is the unprofessional poorly executed part of all this, people have a right to change their minds, but be respectful to your audience, acknowledge you're talking out your bum most of the time, and that you likely will change your mind again, again, and again. Maybe also be aware of you're own contradictions, and not talk like you weren't the one drinking your own kool-aid just weeks prior.
To summarize this ridiculous video: "You can replace this hardware synth with a free VST" 😆
This is subjective ...its the same with any product . stereos ,cars , its modern marketing to consumers...Some think Apple are the best computer , simply because of a piece of fruit on the case , and apple hype ....Its all about marketing from manufacturer's
Sequential has perfect MIDI implementation, a perfect, intuitive user interface and still provides manuals, spare parts and software for vintage DSI synths like the Poly Evolver. This is a unique, outstanding service that comes at a premium I'm willing to pay. You could of course steal every idea and not invest in any development like Behringer, but I'm not supporting this. The Black Corporation Kijimi has LFOs for pretty much every single knob and is the ONLY polyphonic synth that does that.
I agree and disagree. I almost never buy hardware for sound, I buy it for workflow.
When using DAWs I was averaging about 2 finished tracks per year.
Since I started using hardware I average about 2 tracks per week and spend the same about of time working on music.
It’s also changed how I think about using my DAW and made me think more intentionally about what i want to do.
I see your point, but: There is so much hate here on the internet and you use such a drastic word like “scam”. I met the guys from Groove Synthesis at Superbooth. I think they put lot of effort in this instrument. If you would have met them personally there, would you call them scammers as well? Everyone should choose for oneself if he wants to get into hardware synth. I personally think it is more musical to play an actual instrument. Only my opinion.
I am online as I am in real life. I have no problems meeting people telling it how I see it, but I don't have to be rude about it and just blabber on unmotivated, but in a one-to-one discussion about prices I'd have no problems saying it how it is. I've done so before as well. Some can take it, some cannot.
Espen doesn't seem to have any comprehension of how the prices form with hardware synths when you develop and manufacture them. That's no scam at all, I can guarantee you that.
Like I said in the video, people like you will come out barking. Show us your music.
@@EspenKraft I write a new piece of music once a month. I have done so since the April of 2008, never missing a month. I always have a dealine at the 15th of every single month of the year. So that's 197 songs I've written since 2008 and that's not counting some of the extra songs I wrote outside of that "one per month" system I have in place.
Show us the links to where we can find your music and listen to it.
@@EspenKraft RUclips doesn't allow posting links here, even when obfuscated. I tried twice. Tell me where I can send you the links.
Links are not for me, it's for everyone else. So they can check out your music.
I definitely smell a rat here! Notice that the only synth manufacturers called out are competition for Behringer. There are many expensive hardware synths that are not called out that are entirely digital.
Fact check - 3rd Wave price is $4995 and not $7000. I own one. It has analog circuitry beyond the oscillators, is not a PPG clone, but does that bit perfectly, and really makes anything I am working on sound fantastic.
Try watching the video. He calls out Behringer.
@lesliekirkwood5081. No, Espen is correct. It would cost me 73,000 NOK to order a 3rd Wave from Thomann. That's about 6,800 USD. If I were to buy it from Sweetwater for the price you suggest, the import tax would push it right back up to 73,000 NOK. Remember, not everyone live in the US.
You realize you sound like ‘angry old man shakes fist at cloud’, right? 😉
hey Rick Beatoff has 4m subs it must work I guess 😂
@@Wagoo hahaa Yeah well, at some point i did unsub from Beatoff.. and i just unsubbed from Espen, too. 🤷♂️
The problem with soft synths is they eventually just fail as the computers and their OS obsoletes them.
The only thing that matters is your writing ability. Performance, arranging. This is a useless topic if you are a professional. There's no time or need
Espen Kraft - big pro sweatshop guy.
I get the feeling that the video is trying to stir up negativity just to go viral. Instead, I encourage anyone who resonates with this video to explore the concept of user experience. The quality of a synthesizer isn't measured solely by the sound it produces.
Some of this I agree with (with regards to some synths being overpriced). But the 3rd Wave being a scam? That's hilarious. It's just a PPG clone? Well that's news to me! I own the 3rd Wave and the Waldorf PPG software, the software isn't even remotely close. Could the 3rd Wave be a VST? Sure, although without the analog filter. But that would be one heck of a plugin. People don't seem to realise the 3rd Wave can not only emulate the original PPG, but it can also do modern wavetable synthesis (some of the best I've ever heard), is also a very capable virtual analogue and a sampler, with a fantastic sequencer. Now times that by 4, and you start to understand what's great about the 3rd Wave. The build quality and keybed is also very impressive. It's definitely a premium and one-of-a-kind synth, and its price reflects that. I can see why some might see it as overpriced, but it's not to me and that absolutely does not make it a scam. But I'm not sure this guy actually understands the meaning of 'scam' in this context.
You willing to pay the price is fine by me. I don't care. I just want to warn people about spending that much on something you can get for WAY less, although not in that package admittedly. Hopefully some will see through the scam.
@@EspenKraft But you can't get the 3rd Wave as a plugin for much less - I pointed this out in my comment. You're completely out of touch/wrong about this. I OWN the Waldorf PPG software, it's not remotely the same, that's just the PPG software (which is also horrible to program by the way). The 3rd Wave is much, much more than that. It's ability to emulate a PPG is one small part of that synth.
Sure. I understand that not everyone will be pleased hearing they've been scammed, and you obviously don't see it that way and that's fine too. I never said the 3rd Wave isn't a great instrument, I'm questioning the price.
@@EspenKraft Nothing wrong with questioning the price, but you could do that without claiming 'scams' and stating software exists, when it doesn't. Expensive hardware doesn't = scam. Either you're misunderstanding the term, or this is intentional for controversy/views. There could be healthy discussions here about what you actually get for your money in regards to some of these expensive synths.
Yes, I could. But I don't do it like that. I like to word things on the more extreme side. I am here as I am in life, 100% true to my inner voice. Some hate me for that, some love me. I like that. I'd rather have some on either side of the spectrum than everyone in the middle, indifferent. I see this as a scam, you don't. That's fine.
I really want to hear a song about this escort. 🎶"Astrid! You don't have to put on the red light!"🎶😀
🤣🤣🤣
So good.
Way to shit on a company like Groove Synthesis who’ve worked hard to create a niche product, continually updated it, and unfortunately exist in 2024 when even basic human necessities are expensive. Yep, just out to make money and fuck over the consumer.
Does this only apply to analog synths? Look at how much inferior the DX7 remakes are compared to the original which had way more voices.
This is just a load of ego nonsense
6:24 way off there, man. They're running FPGAs, not software emulations. Essentially indistinguishable from actual hardware
Also Roland cloud sucks shit lol
This is a common misconception from the early days of Roland's ESC2/BMC chips when we didn't know what they were and were trying to brainstorm what could be running ACB (their "analogue circuit behaviour") - the same chips are used for Zen Core and the shitty "ABM" templates. In reality these are quad core ARM SoC chips.. which also explains the 4 voice from single chip thing running (heavy) ACB on the boutiques as Roland were too cheap to put 2 chips in
Jupiter-X/Juno-X also just have a paltry single chip, but Zen Core is easier to run as it's less authentic and just a general VA engine
That was great! 😄Not being able to affort that stuff suddenly feels a lot better...
People don’t buy the synth, they buy the status
@@AmateurSynthusiast Spoken like a person with ‘amateur’ in their screen name (sorry you kinda asked for it by making a blanket generalization about a demographic you have no first-hand experience with)😉. I’m not a collector, i’ve never posted a pic of my rig anywhere. I don’t discuss my gear much with friends. I’m a 35+ year audio & music professional. I bought a Prophet X because the sound is simply jaw-dropping. The stereo Prophet filter Dave Rossum designed, is also used in believe in the UDOs and 3rd wave. When clients get my stuff, they’re often like ‘The synth sounds amazing!’ And i get hired again.
I can’t speak for anybody else, but what i can say is, professional musicians are a real existing market. And these products are for them.
I’m not sticking up for Roland, their flagships are absolutely overpriced, as their economy of scale is closer to Behringer, and they cut corners on build and UI. But smaller companies are legitimately just making the best-quality instruments they can. If you don’t need one, buy something else.
But i will say, i sold some of my older vintage gear (which often needed servicing checkups) to buy the Prophet. And once it got into my studio, i sold 2 other synths that year, because i simply wasn’t using them anymore. Not only has that synth already paid for itself many times over, i actually reduced the amount of gear in my studio.
Personally, i’m a professional user who invests in my business. And yes, i absolutely bought the synth, not the status.
You are 100% right! I know to much people with all the classics and cant do shit
It would have been great if you could have provided some actual data to substantiate your claim. Having built a diy polysynth the costs of electronic components can go way above 1200$ Not taking in account the design and build process. Assuming synth manufacturers are scammers is wild and disrespectful. Or did I miss something?
Scale
IGS Rubberbands 500... I thought the same about it as you did, and in that moment I said to myself, "this guy REALLY has an ear for sound." But I must say that even in an actual, cheap desktop synth, like a Behringer Odyssey... you're getting Pure Analog, Electricity, Pumping through that thing... I can hear the WARM buzzing and fuzzing like a heart attack, it's unmistakable; and IF someone were to even imply they were going to get "the same sound" from a VST, they better drop dead. Because if THAT were true, we'd all be selling our hardware synths, and freeing up half a room, and buying motorcycles or putting down payments on homes. Case in point, I personally feel that "Arminator" a free VST is THEE BEST CS-80 replicant by far, yet... I wouldn't ever say it's ANYWHERE CLOSE to The Real Thing, cause it's not... and I'm sure you know this.
But what you said about the Jupiter X (and others like it), yes... some synth manufacturers happen to be Extremely Milking the DIGITAL side of things, KNOWING that the broad customer base isn't going to be concerned with high quality electronics or analog filters.
HOWEVER, there are some Analog/Digital Hybrids that- to me- are priced fairly, like the Summit. (Not just for it's analog components, I regard it as an modern day Engineering Masterpiece)
Returning to outboard gear, and I don't believe this matter is simply confined to digitality. Why do you think the IGS Rubber Bands doesn't exist in VST form? (Because it'd be a total bastardization of it's ANALOG original)
At the end of the day: Circuitry Is Important- not easily replaced with digital emulations, which often fall short.
My Antelope Amari is also a piece of outboard gear with but a few moveable knobs, and is basically... A COMPUTER, if you think about it. But let's also think about the fact that there's not a single VST we could load on our own computers that can emulate what it does As Well As It Does It. And the exact same thing can be said for the processing power of a computer like The Novation Summit, which also has ANALOG Circuitry.
I'm just, not at all, in the party of people who feel like they can earnestly delude themselves and say that they're "going to get the same sound from a 100% digital emulation". No Way Dude, NO WAY! Is it true that The Commoner, and at times, even PROs in a blind test may choose a digitally emulated sound over The Real Thing? Yes, it is true, and I've done it myself at times... but does it completely invalidate the argument that there's a large number of us who Ultimately prefer the sound of ANALOG far more, and will buy ANALOG and pay ANALOG prices? There's a reason why we do, and that's because the sound is incomparable. And whether 90% of the people who listen to our synth work can tell the difference, or not, isn't ultimately important to us when we purchase that next hardware analog synth... it's because WE know it's better, and that matters to us That Much.
In cases where synths are yes, overvalued initially by the maker... they will be price dropped through lack of sale, OR the used market, the everyday man, will determine what a used one is now worth. And Thank God for the used market! When I got a used Novation Summit in MINT condition for 1400 USD, in the original box, with the plastic still on it, I felt like I was getting a deal. When I purchased a used Prophet 08 in Good condition for 1000USD, I felt I scored pretty good; considering I actually prefer it over the Rev 2, and feel that the used market has a way of devaluing synths that I personally find valuable to MY OWN ear- which the market may feel, ultimately, obverse to... and in this way treasures can be found.
I feel like there's Merit in what you're saying Mr. Kraft, but for your argument to work; it has to be More Specific. As A Blanket Statement? It's got some holes in it.
Wow up until this point I sort of thought he was knowledgeable... This is insane...??? Is this a very elaborate April Fools to be revealed in 7 months? What gives?
I unsubscribed 2 years ago and somehow this video was in recomendations. This channel became from a positive 80s synth geek place to a confused dying channel with old grumpy guy.
If that is true, then why is the number of subs going up? It's because I still pump out a lot of quality videos that people enjoy and find useful and inspiring. When I do the occasional "opinion video" people like you come out whining about how much better things were when you weren't challenged. You've obviously come to despise. Just move out.
@@EspenKraft only problem here is this wasn't a challenge. It was poorly-informed garbage from someone with a chip on their shoulder.
One man's garbage is another man's gold. You speak as if you matter. You don't.
@@EspenKraft whether the shit is covered with gold leaf or not - its still shit. 😂
@@EspenKraft telling someone they don't matter is mean, petty and uncalled for. There's no need for that kind of behaviour - even if you disagree with someone, they're still a human being who does matter and deserves a basic respect. Your conduct is disgusting to me. I definitely won't be subbing.
I have owned a lot of synths over the years and played many others in studios and while you may be right about the fuse et al the 3rd wave is a very special synth and fully worthy of its price in my opinion. it's like buying a handmade guitar by a master luthier. when you hear it with your own ears in the flesh it's a complete masterpiece and considering the prices its vintage peers go for it's a bargain. I bought the microwave plugin, it's great but nothing close. I owned a microwave 1 and have played the 10k+ wave and this thing stands up to them and presents a whole universe of other super modern possibilities. I've learned some great lessons on this channel but you are way way off in your opinion of the 3rd wave.
I paid $600 for my Roland Jupiter-4.
Thinking digital envelopes means something is a scam is wild 😂
I mean, this whole video seems is either sarcasm or bullshit for the sake of bullshit...
I mean when Analog is used as a selling point and a reason to upcharge, yeah, sneaking in cheaper, easier solutions is scammy.
@@koalemos1679 Digital enevelopes offer more control with 0 impact on sound there's no benefit to an analog envelope
@@JorbLovesGear They definitely give more control, flexibility and easier to implement (if a synth has digital control part), but end result depends on particular implementation, which is not always flawless (for example the update rate might much lower than it would be in the analog envelope).
1:06
Flagship prices are being "adjusted" now, a lot more next year. Seeing many used ones being sold at $1K-$2K depreciation. When Hydrasynth Deluxe went on sale for $1500, I saw it as the bargain. Then they updated the O.S. and it is a Poly AT beast. Used synths I love are, Novation Ultranova ~$350, Studiologic Sledge Black ~$600, DeepMind 12 or 12D $500-$600, Take 5, a stretch at ~$1000... just to name some. If manufacturers want to pry $3K+ from me, the synth needs to have a lot of magic above and below the hood.
I got deepmind 12d for a ridiculous bargain, new. I just cought the right moment, it's 1.5 times more expensive now in my country then what i paid less than 2 years ago. Such a beautiful synth, for so cheap!
I sold my Nord Rack 2X just before, and then i felt bad for the guys who bought it, they seemed so involved with music, but that money i asked did obvisouly not come easy. I definitely should have gone down 10%, if i knew i was about to hit that bargain with Deepmind. I was about to bring it down anyway, now i feel bad, as if i ripped them off.
This guys a joker, he does this from time 2 time, ignore and scroll on by ;-))
Like you did right now?
Although you have a point, don't underestimate the cost of actual hardware. A case with faders, buttons, lights, controllers, I/O, power supply, mainboard and cabling is expensive.
For a well built synth like the Juno X the parts-list easily adds up to $1000.
And that's excluding development cost, marketing, labour, support and shipping.
So the $2000 retail price for a Juno X seems not so bad after all.
But $5000 or 7000 for a synth with a similar parts list? Yes: that is scammy.
Why is the Juno-X shockingly cheaper on the Thomann site in Germany than what they're asking for it in the US?
@@johndeaux3703 $1500 is cheap indeed... Beats me!
I'm from the Netherlands, where it's €2000.
Agreed 👍
@@johndeaux3703 in Canada is very similar price to Thomann
@@johndeaux3703 Weird... I'm in the Netherlands, where it's 2000 as well.
Play live for a hamburger, why anyone should pay for a tickets, it's scam!
This is a midlife crisis tantrum
A take so wrong I’m second guessing everything you’ve said in this channel so far. Congrats.
Espen, you're just being silly. Take a RUclips break for a month, walk around in the woods and then stay there.
Rage bait
Bro is taking about hooking up with women of the night and giving you advice on synths 🤦♂️ can’t make it up
I love your videos, but to be honest I think this comes down to complaining about capitalism. You don't have to buy that synth. Capitalism in healthcare or food is a far bigger issue..
I disagree. I have a Hydrasynth, and it doesnt hold a candle to my Prophet 10 in sound quality or the enjoyment I get from playing it. And no. - the Arturia VST of the Prophet 5 is not as good as the real thing. but these days VSTs now sate my G.A.S. appetite
Perception is everything.
@@handje1234 Buy a hearing aid.
And.... Espen DOESN'T have a Hydrasynth...!!??!!? Errrm....🙄🤔🤨
The vsts sound better than the rev 4, but don’t come close to rev 1-3. Vintage synths are something else..
@@nilsvanderplancken I own the gear I am commenting on.
I love my Hydrasynth Explorer. Such a bargain. But why inflate the prices of some of these hardware synths by 2+ times? Are these prices in AUS currency? The Polybrute 12 lists for $4000 where I live, and the Moog Muse lists for $3500. I really want the Polybrute 12, but my back is not what it used to be so I wouldn't be able to take it to gigs which is what I'd want it for. And I don't use my laptop for gigs as I've seen too many horror stories even though my Windows laptop rarely crashes and midi issues are few and far between.
Nonsense. I dont believe that even the OP believes his own sensationalism. Let's say youre a keyboard player. Would you prefer to play: a. a laptop with a midi controller, with all the headache and failure points of a general use OS, a DAW, plugins, latency, buffers, and digital audio clocking etc. oorrrr a beautiful and slick hardware version of the 'same thing' with all the hands on, 1-1 parameters at your fingertips? And what are the criteria that makes any of these a 'scam'? digital synth? DCOs? is a sampler a scam? how about if it has an analog filter section? Nonsense. Humerous video anyways, I just dont believe you :)
When it comes to workflow, plug-ins are much, much better than hardware. You have to route the hardware, deal with mono signals, set up midi correctly, handle the saving of patches or program changes IF you can even save patches, otherwize take photo of the patch or just render to audio and forget about any type of recall.
With plug-ins everything works from the get go and everything is saved together with the song. Zero hassle. All workflow.
OS i no trouble at all these days and everything is 100% stable for me with Cubase and Reason.
I own both and although hardware can be fun to work with, plug-ins are so much faster and much more convenient, workflow wize,
Oops, I got scammed.
On that note, anyone know where to find a copy of reFX Vanguard that runs on a modern computer? Or how to transfer my Albino 3 license to a modern version? Or SaxLab? Or how to get a working copy of the synths included in those older versions of Fruity Loops from 2001?
Pick your battles, I guess.
The Blofeld basically shows what a hardware digital synth should cost at maximum. That's technology from 2007, whose features have not been surpassed still (Hydrasynth does not match it in multi-timbrality and polyphony). It seems Waldorf keeps manufacturing it to make exactly that point.
Some recent synths KingKorg Neo and Roland Gaia 2 also seem to cost hundreds of € above their feature set.
The Blofeld shows what an actual VST in a box with only 4 super cheap encoder knobs should cost. I had one, sold it - wasn’t bad at all, but did nothing for me. Bring on all the Sequentials - I use my Trigon on everything, sounds incredible. Use the Prophet and Take 5 a little less so, but there is still an enormous difference between something like that and a Blofeld, which has virtually none of the knob-per-function advantages of a hardware synth - you’re much better off sticking with the Largo.
Exactly this totally agree
@@swid_swid_swid I agree the UI isn't that accessible. There is always hidden settings active somewhere (1-5 knob presses/turns away) you forgot were active. Things like its multi-mode and patch saving need a precise operation of knob/dial combinations, or you'll accidentally lose something...
The MicroMonsta 2 would like to have a word with you.
I own a Blofeld and it has the weakest output of any of my synths.
So much to unwrap here...... But the bottom line is simple. The level of ignorance about the MI industry and the professional music world shown here is extraordinary. EVERYONE is totally entitled to an opinion, as controversial or divisive as it may be, but at LEAST always come at things from a place of knowledge and experience. The worst thing is simply that he creates an aura of such knowledge and authority on the subject matter but hasn't the first clue of what goes into producing and bringing a synth to market and how they are then used in a professional environment. He's all of a sudden more bothered about getting the "clicks"!
Up until now I've mainly enjoyed Espen's view of synths and tech, mainly because being a similar age we have had much of the same experiences when using the same vintage of synths, but I don't know what he's been smoking or why he suddenly wants to talk bollocks but so much of this video is simply rubbish. Please Espen, just go back to making videos about specific '80's synths that you've bought, OR talk to some people actually IN the industry, THEN come back and make a follow up video to this.
I describe you in the beginning of the video. It's spot on.
@@EspenKraft I produce no music?
@@EspenKraftWILD to say that about Ty Unwin 😂😂😂
Espen, are you alright?
@@EspenKraft Ty never STOPS making music. Your argument is invalid.
I have to agree with Espen to a point on this one. Most vsts will wipe the floor with most hardware synthesizers. It has been this way in the last decade or so. Look at Serum, Native Instruments Reaktor, Arturia etc. I own a Roland Fantom 6, Novation Summit, Roland Gaia, JP-8000, Korg Prophecy, Akai Force but some of these I bought to be stand alone in case I don't have my computer and they offer more than just extra sounds. Much of the new synths are WAY over priced for what they offer. Why would I spend 3-4 thousand dollars on a synth with 4-8 damn voices and can't even save a preset? Who cares if it is analog that is ridiculous. He is also right in that all these gear addicts rarely make any music or release anything. It is a good way to go into debt and lose everything you have as well for something like a status symbol.
If I had a nickel for every time this year I've seen an old synth guy on youtube make an absolute buffoon out of himself whining about hardware synths I'd have two nickels! which isn't a lot but it's weird it happened twice
I was planning on buying the Moog muse, but after watching this, I will buy the Diva or Legend HZ instead, thank you for the great Advise Espen!
The biggest scam is talentless music influencers like this guy spewing rubbish, crapping on companies that make awesome US made instruments. I would like to see him bring his laptop, interface and a midi controller to a punk show. Andrew huang, heinbach and this guy should make cooking shows and stop scamming for views, none of them have released good music, they should do iPhone unboxing videos
I'm actually thinking of starting up a food channel as well as I'm a very good cook.
I'm definitely the tinkerer type myself, lol. I don't really even produce music, since I mostly keep busy with other things nowadays. I just enjoy listening to different sounds and seeing what happens when I turn a knob.... then again I don't have a rack of synths or anything. In fact I only just bought my first one this weekend and it's not arrived yet. I started quite strong, with Expressive E's osmose, actually hoping to try and break through that "tinker only" barrier with it though it's not my main goal of getting it. It's kinda funny hearing you say those other synths should be avoided because they're digital, when the digital synth engine inside of osmose is a huge part of why I got it (plus I've just been an mpe fanatic for years, but my tiny sensel keyboard is kinda hard to use because of it's size). None of this is to say you're wrong though. I do see your point and I think making the right choices is important. I hope Osmose was the right choice for me and I feel like it isn't the same type of scam as what you're talking about.
One point of defence I can bring up against this video is the ease. Having multiple sets on keyboards on hand, each making a different noise, and having them in a physical space where you can move from one sound to the next without having to use a computer at all sounds like a great way to make jamming out easier... then again, you can definitely achieve the same effect with multiple midi keyboards connected to diffrent VSTs, or even different instances of the same VST. And now the only argument remaining would be "to each their own" lol.
0:20 "Pay attention to these people who will attack me in the comments. Remember I told you that they would! They don't make music like I do." This sounds like the rambling of some sort of strange fascist dictator trying to hang onto a strand of power. Trump uses these strategies. Espen- you be you, live and let live; applaud those who buy or collect hardware for their own passionate reasons as they are enjoying their lives. This is sad.
I am surprised to see how this video pushed the buttons of the synth community 🤭 I agree with your thoughts 💭 the truth can be hard to hear at times…
Many bedroom musicians drowning in debt with a collection of synths and very little music put together need to wake up. This hilarious video was a lot of fun to watch! Thank you, Espen! :)
ITB or Bähringer....
No thanks, Not my Cup of tea
I also once had a Producer Switch Moment, similar to Leland.
In the early 2000s I was working for a SpecialFX unit here in Germany, working on some Shots for a Fantasy Movie.
One take was a hand that was supposed to be surrounded by some magical energy field.
The director drops by to see what I've done.
I give him a pre-rendering and he says “OK so far, but can you make it a bit bluer, less red? And a bit more movement and sparkles in the energy field!”
So I make a duplicate of the effect group in After Effects, change the parameters and start the pre-rendering.
“Great, that's exactly how I wanted it!”
At that moment, I realize that I've accidentally rendered him the old version instead of the new effects group.
Humans Perception... such a nasty thing!
The best troll video! Bravo, Espen!
Please make a video about synth collectors and their tiny cheap studio monitors.
Hardware synths are about sound character and INSPIRATION. Muse and 3rd Wave are amazing instruments. Price tag is ok because there are no decent alternatives.