Well done! I am glad to see you guys, once agin, going beyond the basic, overly-simplified approach that appears too often when explaining mtb tech. Many presenters pass along vague (often inaccurate) info in an attempt to not overwhelm their beginner/uneducated audience. It is refreshing to see you guys willing to tell more of the whole, real-world story. I really appreciate the way you measure and share the actual geo and travel of bikes, rather than just lazily reading the number the manufacturer post on a website. This video is another example of that real-world detail oriented approach applied to suspension set up. Please keep up the good work -- we need your high standard of information presentation to be more common in mtb journalism!
Quick point.. although your point in comparing shock vs axle sag is spot on, using instantaneous ratios will result in the wrong number... basically, once you involve that curve, this became a calculus problem, not a simple arithmetic one.
You're right - to calculate the exact shock sag to achieve 27.5% wheel sag, you need to calculate (or estimate) the average leverage ratio between 0% and 27.5% wheel travel, not the instantaneous ratio at 27.5%. For the Canyon, that would be *roughly* 2.925, instead of 2.737, which would give 13.2 mm, not 14 mm shock sag. So, there is an even bigger difference from the basic calculation (15.1 mm). But ultimately, 27.5% (or 30%) is just a ballpark figure to get you started, so this is pretty academic. It's just worth being aware that progressive bikes will have more rear wheel sag than shock sag as a percentage.
It’s been a while since we’ve used it, but from memory it’s a useful tool. As ever, the problem is the price. Buying it for very occasional use is expensive. Renting a kit seems like the best solution.
I’d love to be as technically accurate in my set up as these guys but best I can do is to roughly set up per manufacture numbers then go on solo rides on familiar trails and do multiple small adjustments over a few rides.
Interesting, I may try experimenting with sag but I usually just follow what the bike manufacture recommends. Some recommend sitting others recommend standing. I think standing is the best balance. My theory is sitting will require more pressure in the shock to achieve desired sag range but as soon as the bike is pointed down steep shit there is going to be less shock sag as rider weight shifts to front of bike.
I over stroked one of my bike by 15 mm eye to eye at the rear shock it doesn't hit and geo is pretty on point since I overforked the bike significantly it runs 30% sag, while I have another bike that came stock with the same travel but with a much less progressive linkage and it needs to be pumped up quite a bit, minimal sag... You can't assume sag on travel and rider weight alone you need to ride and test ...
looking forward to Alan’s video on how to measure exact travel- he did a review on my bike which is 162 rear but said the actual travel was 157mm Id love to be able to do this
Awesome information even if I think the average rider will not feel that much of a difference if the shock is some percent off. Anyway is there such a video for fork suspension as well?
If suggested figures are a ball park figure to start experimenting, how does the average rider know when it is correct? That is assuming they are unsure what correct feels like.
i have a question. i ride fox factory float dpx2 and i got like 10 - 15% sag despite that i botom out almost every run. so shoud i try more presure or just stick with that?
Bottoming out on every ride is not necessarily a bad thing. Having said that, not sure why you’re running so little sag? And bottoming out with so little sag sounds weird. Like something isn’t right.
@@MBRmagazine yes something was wrong with the shock i try to put more air in it and somehow it got more sag so i was confused but went for a ride anyway and it stopt bottoming out, so i guess the problem is solved
You had one “dream ride” featuring Switzerland about 4 years ago. Please do more of those… so inspiring and I honestly can’t watch yet another bike review or 10 ways to xyz video
Awesome walk through for proper SAG. Had an issue with BB height sort of squatting in between technical trail features. Respectfully, wasn't anywhere near using full travel. So, went and read the recommended OEM shock pressure chart and saw I was about 25-psi low. In terms of "feel," it rides more like a 120mm than a 150mm. To be fair, it's handling anti-squat far, far better. The take-away is that I generally don't add in more air to a rear shock that I'm not using full travel on. No such thing as a perfect bike, but there are certainly some brilliant, near perfect days on the trail(s), if the suspension is in their respective places.
Well done! I am glad to see you guys, once agin, going beyond the basic, overly-simplified approach that appears too often when explaining mtb tech. Many presenters pass along vague (often inaccurate) info in an attempt to not overwhelm their beginner/uneducated audience. It is refreshing to see you guys willing to tell more of the whole, real-world story. I really appreciate the way you measure and share the actual geo and travel of bikes, rather than just lazily reading the number the manufacturer post on a website. This video is another example of that real-world detail oriented approach applied to suspension set up. Please keep up the good work -- we need your high standard of information presentation to be more common in mtb journalism!
Thanks! Appreciate the support!
That canyon looks so good
Quick point.. although your point in comparing shock vs axle sag is spot on, using instantaneous ratios will result in the wrong number... basically, once you involve that curve, this became a calculus problem, not a simple arithmetic one.
You're right - to calculate the exact shock sag to achieve 27.5% wheel sag, you need to calculate (or estimate) the average leverage ratio between 0% and 27.5% wheel travel, not the instantaneous ratio at 27.5%. For the Canyon, that would be *roughly* 2.925, instead of 2.737, which would give 13.2 mm, not 14 mm shock sag. So, there is an even bigger difference from the basic calculation (15.1 mm). But ultimately, 27.5% (or 30%) is just a ballpark figure to get you started, so this is pretty academic. It's just worth being aware that progressive bikes will have more rear wheel sag than shock sag as a percentage.
Great tips here. I also find it useful to wright my settings down on a piece of paper that I keep with a pen with my shock pump.
I use a shockwiz which i find to be useful. My dynamic sag was 10% different to static sag which is interesting. What are your views on the shockwiz?
It’s been a while since we’ve used it, but from memory it’s a useful tool. As ever, the problem is the price. Buying it for very occasional use is expensive. Renting a kit seems like the best solution.
idk why people make so mouch drama about sag just hop on the bike pump air in until it starts to feel good
Whatever works for you 👍
I’d love to be as technically accurate in my set up as these guys but best I can do is to roughly set up per manufacture numbers then go on solo rides on familiar trails and do multiple small adjustments over a few rides.
There's nothing wrong in that approach.
Interesting, I may try experimenting with sag but I usually just follow what the bike manufacture recommends. Some recommend sitting others recommend standing. I think standing is the best balance. My theory is sitting will require more pressure in the shock to achieve desired sag range but as soon as the bike is pointed down steep shit there is going to be less shock sag as rider weight shifts to front of bike.
I over stroked one of my bike by 15 mm eye to eye at the rear shock it doesn't hit and geo is pretty on point since I overforked the bike significantly it runs 30% sag, while I have another bike that came stock with the same travel but with a much less progressive linkage and it needs to be pumped up quite a bit, minimal sag...
You can't assume sag on travel and rider weight alone you need to ride and test ...
looking forward to Alan’s video on how to measure exact travel- he did a review on my bike which is 162 rear but said the actual travel was 157mm Id love to be able to do this
Awesome information even if I think the average rider will not feel that much of a difference if the shock is some percent off. Anyway is there such a video for fork suspension as well?
Cheers! We haven’t done one for fork sag, mainly because it’s simpler and the air chart should get you into a better ballpark setting.
If suggested figures are a ball park figure to start experimenting, how does the average rider know when it is correct? That is assuming they are unsure what correct feels like.
i have a question. i ride fox factory float dpx2 and i got like 10 - 15% sag despite that i botom out almost every run. so shoud i try more presure or just stick with that?
Bottoming out on every ride is not necessarily a bad thing. Having said that, not sure why you’re running so little sag? And bottoming out with so little sag sounds weird. Like something isn’t right.
@@MBRmagazine yes something was wrong with the shock i try to put more air in it and somehow it got more sag so i was confused but went for a ride anyway and it stopt bottoming out, so i guess the problem is solved
Had you equalised the air pressure in the positive and negative chambers? Remember to do this after adding or removing air from the shock.
1mm on the rear, for pressure what would that be tiny, shock would change more when the bike ride and the shock gets hot..
Open rebound to set sag?
Doesn’t need to be fully open, but definitely doesn’t want to be fully closed.
Why do you need to remove the pump when re checking sag?
Because the pump adds to the overall air volume.
@@MBRmagazine aah cheers
THIS is why I like hardtails
You had one “dream ride” featuring Switzerland about 4 years ago. Please do more of those… so inspiring and I honestly can’t watch yet another bike review or 10 ways to xyz video
We’d love to do something similar again! Was a fantastic trip
Work together guys, your one upping each other
Please make another video on suspension
Awesome walk through for proper SAG. Had an issue with BB height sort of squatting in between technical trail features. Respectfully, wasn't anywhere near using full travel. So, went and read the recommended OEM shock pressure chart and saw I was about 25-psi low. In terms of "feel," it rides more like a 120mm than a 150mm. To be fair, it's handling anti-squat far, far better.
The take-away is that I generally don't add in more air to a rear shock that I'm not using full travel on. No such thing as a perfect bike, but there are certainly some brilliant, near perfect days on the trail(s), if the suspension is in their respective places.
Thanks!