I wonder if the first bulge was where the pressure spiked from the resistance of the balls. Then as the powder column started expanding and burning and building pressure and the balls start getting to the end of the barrel where it's thinner and right in the microsecond they left the barrel the rest of the charge ignited in the oxygen rich atmosphere and peeled the barrel end. I find this stuff fascinating. I wonder if it would have changed if you didn't seat theballs on the top of the powder. But everything blackpowder already showed that didn't matter but he was using normal charges.
So I forgot to mention it in the video, but that bulge is exactly where the round balls were sitting in the barrel, so I think you pretty much nailed this one
@@Real11BangBang The oxygen necessary to burn the powder is in the oxidizer, KNO3 (the O3 part). Adding an "oxygen rich atmosphere" will not make the burning happen any more energetically than it happens inside the barrel. Black powder guns could be fired in a vacuum or other oxygen starved environment, because the necessary oxygen is in the potassium nitrate (see, the waterproof fuse.) The proportions of the components in black powder are such that no additional oxygen is needed or helpful. To analogize with a gas engine, adding more air (oxidizer) to the fuel air mixture won't produce more energy -- unless you add more fuel to oxidize. The pressure simply exceeded the mechanical ability of the barrel wall to constrain the pressure just at the end of the barrel. There are two possible reasons for this: the barrel became too thin to restrain the pressure just at that location; and, it is at the very tip of the barrel where there is no additional material to allow for elastic or plastic deformation, so the barrel exceeded the elastic and plastic limit of the metal and yielded. If the barrel had ended in the middle of the bulge, it possibly would have split at that point, but as there was material on both sides of the bulge, while the metal exceeded the elastic (stretch and return to shape) limit of the metal, it could flow plastically (stretch but not return to shape) to allow the bulge to occur. Either or both of these factors could have caused the end of the barrel to yield. (At the bulge the barrel may also have been significantly thicker than at the tip, so that it could flow plastically without reaching the yield limit.) The pressure did not "spike" just in the last inch or so of the barrel and "blow it up." It may have been too great for the material at that point, but it was not significantly higher there than it was at the point just where the split stopped. Any powder burning as it left the barrel would have immediately encountered a drop in pressure as it reached the freedom of the atmosphere (relative to the confines of the barrel): the powder would have been burning in an infinite (relatively) volume of space instead of within the confines of the barrel, and so the pressure could not possibly have spiked *after* it left the barrel. You can see that the barrel stretched over the inch and a half or so behind the tip, and that at some point the barrel did not stretch but looked (to the naked eye) intact. It was thick enough there for elastic (stretch and return to shape) deformation to take place instead of plastic (stretch and stay stretched) deformation or yielding to occur. My 2 cents on the subject.
The locks are generally not tuned and/or hardened properly, and the grain structure of the wood at the wrist of the stocks normally aren't ideal. The barrels not being up to par with shooting black powder was never actually an issue with these.
G'Day, I've had one of these Indian Brown Besses for around 40 years and have generally loaded 100grains of 3f powder with either a paper patched or ticking patch .662 to .70 round ball. Never had any problems. After watching your proof testing, I think it shows that a lot of the bad press that Indian muskets get may come from Pedersoli owner snobbery! I also have two Indian made Enfield smoothbores in 20 gauge that I regularly shoot #6 shot or a.562 patched round ball with 60 grains of 3F. Again, never had any problems. I need to dust off my muzzleloaders, it's been a while since I fired them. Enjoyed your video. Cheers, Steve
Thank you sir for the fine comment. Yeah, I'm kind of with you on where this whole theory of the exploding Indian muskets is coming from. I've had several people tell me that if I ever get a. Pederizoli I'll never go back. Funny thing is I own a pederizoli and while it is a fine shooting musket, I can't quite find the $1,500 worth of difference between it and my military heritage guns lol Thanks again Ethan
@Real11BangBang At least with the Indian made guns they have period correct markings, which way better then "75 Cal, black powder made in Italy" stamped on the barrel. I had some guy telling me the breechplugs are smooth "corks" hammered in the breech, like really?
100% my experience with these muskets. The stock will go before the barrels will! lol *Edit: Man, you should send this video to Military Heritage as testament
Yep and so now every time I get a comment of somebody telling me that I'm proof loading my Indian made 1766 Charleville with my 155 gr load. I'm going to send them this video
I've been calling it for years and I've seen that the rumor have slowed down a little bit but they're still the old fudds out there who are screaming at me about how I'm going to blow my gun up because I shoot 200 grain charges lol
Sturdy barrels made of modern steel just about cannot be split with any amount of BP and a single "in spec" projectile. It needs something akin to a barrel obstruction to burst them. I am not surprised that it took a huge charge and multiple projectiles to cause significant damage.
Impressive! I believe that with large powder loads, 1F powder will actually outperform 3F powder. The burning of the powder spreads easier and faster through the larger kernels of powder. Fine powder will get pushed out of the barrel before burning, if the load is to large. I believe this is why coarser powder is recommended for larger calibers. Lots og guys use 3F for everything, but I don't buy into that. Just mentioning this, as an idea for another video. Not at all meant as critisism. I think the comment about some of the powder exploding just as the balls left the barrel, was defenitely on to something. In my "Dimwit the last mountainman" videos, I try to be carefull with my antique guns. But I did accidentaly double load an Enfield P53 with minieball papercartridges. Recoil was stout, but me and the gun didn't take any damage. Happy New Year from Norway!
I used patched balls on my proof test, however, there's a channel, if I can find it again I'll come back here and edit this. Anyway they did the research and if you are woding the powder then running balls on top the wod. You need to fill between two ball with buckshot to act as a buffer. .
Military Heritage is where I bought my fusil de chasse and I was quite happy with the quick service and shipping and the price. Still $599 (U.S.) I'm sure they make more than a good bit of profit on it, but it's still well worth the price to me, as it is a well made gun. With even limited care, I'd expect to get 100 years or more use out of it. It's like the wrought iron I forge, I make it with the intention that it will last at least 100 years and maybe a couple of centuries more. (But A-hole people still want to buy the Chinese cheapos that they have to throw away at the end of a camping season. I'm really IMPRESSED with how that musket held up. That was one hell of a LOT of fine grain powder and a pretty big load of lead to build barrel pressure. I've proofed and double-proofed mine with the coarsest powder I could find (2-F) and I'd really rather be shooting it with 1-F. It's nice to know that it could handle a full load of 4-F in an emergency! Anyway, that was a GREAT TEST and you're sure to give a lot of BP shooters with 'Indian" guns a lot of peace of mind. On another note, you could probably cut that barrel somewhere behind the "cherry" bulge and do a little bit of wood and metal filing work and turn those 'remains' into a long barrel flintlock pistol. I'd use the rest of the barrel for making knives and flint strikers. It seems like it'd be good hardenable steel for that. A flintlock pistol with a long barrel would remind me of "The Joker" or a Thompson Contender on steroids.
I bought an English style trade gun from Military Heritage. I had a touch hole liner installed. The gunsmith who hates these guns told me not to load more than 60 grains in it. He said it had a good lock and sparks well. The trigger weight is pretty good. My only complaint is some shallow pits in the bore.
glad YOU did that. well done. I never saw IV8888 doing the full barrel black thing but I DO recall him stuffing a overcharge of (As I recall) IMR3031 in one. IE, a smokeless powder. it demolished a pretty gun.
Thanks grey pilgrim Yeah he did one a while ago where he just loaded 160 g into a CVA 45 caliber rifle and then filled it to the end and put two round balls on top. (I thought he had just done one until I watched that video again this morning) but even then it completely destroyed the stock. And honestly I don't think he had as much powder in that 45 caliber when he filled it up clear to the end of the barrel as we did in this .62
But look at the difference in the way the barrel material failed. In the smokeless powder event, the gun failed right at the ignition point, and it came apart in shards, with very little apparent stretching of the metal at the failure. This indicated a very immediate loading of the metal past its ultimate yield strength, as the overpressure was far in excess of the material's capacity to resist stretching. The rifle barrel on that gun was of near uniform thickness along its length. In the blackpowder event, the pressure did not exceed the capabilities of the barrel until the location of the balls, where the material stretched until the balls moved down the bore, which reduced the pressure in the barrel (increased the volume) to the point that it did not exceed the ability of the material to handle the pressure -- until it got to the end, where the barrel was (most likely) at its thinnest in that type of barrel design. With the India gun, the pressure at the breechplug and the pressure at the balls (obstruction) would have been the same, so the barrel must have been thinner near the obstruction -- thick enough not to yield completely, but thin enough to stretch. Then as the balls moved along, and the pressure dropped in the barrel (increasing volume -- the barrel did not stretch once the balls started moving) the barrel could contain the reduced pressure without stretching, UNTIL, at the very end, it became thin enough that even the progressively decreasing pressure was too much for the material. These really are fabulous tests to compare. Even if you have a massive overload with black powder, the pressure is not going to be high enough (in a representative India gun) to shatter the barrel in the way that people think of a pipe bomb exploding (as did happen with the smokeless powder.)
@@carlericvonkleistiii2188 Yeah, in a slow motion sort of way, there's a lot of dynamic things happening. Really, it's hard to call internal ballistics an "explosion" unless what you have is basically a sealed, or completely enclosed vessel without a means to allow expansion outside bursting.
So they are Bombay pipe bombs. Just pour in a whole powder horn, ram in a few balls, and the junk blows up... Great start to the new year videos. You guys are the bomb...
That settles that! I read where the India made muzzleloaders are unsafe, which is pure BS. With max loads for the caliber, they have the same safety margin as any other new muzzle loader. The only issue I had with mine is the screw thread sizes are neither metric nor SAE but seem to be British Whitworth which makes sense as India was known as the British Indian empire until 1947.
Thanks rifle chair. Yeah I've got to admit I was kind of impressed myself, I told my little brother that I was convinced that that gun was going to come apart at the seams with that load.
Well considering it just barely blew up with roughly 1200 grains of powder and the barrel in three round balls and about three inches of linen patches. On top of that I would say that with a single round ball you could fill this gun clear to the end of the barrel and it would not blow up
Oh I understand completely and I hope you didn't take it as a criticism. But I'm a geek and I love data and I was just thinking out loud and it inspired me as to something to look into if I'm ever able to afford it. Your videos rock!@@Real11BangBang
1000 plus grains. I don't own an Indian musket yet, but I am glad you did this video. That's all I read on muzzleloading forums is how dangerous they are. I have seen inline guns blow up easier.
He has a gun that generates 200 lbs. of force at the buttstock, and has fired it multiple times on the same day. I'd completely believe he's tough enough to tank that. And hey, he already knows how to deal with a gun that blows up while he's holding it.
From all the research I did around this Christmas, I came to the conclusion that they were perfectly fine to use, and anything else was just a campfire story or operator error. This video would have saved me hours of reading though. Thanks for doing the test and the great video!
A very interesting video I have never believed in the Bombay pipe bomb myth like many other myths I believe that more than powder and ball are at fault. For instance poor cleaning practices and little or no training these kinds of issues lead to more "accidents " than any other causes.
I understand how the stock was broken on the fusil de chasse, but I would really like to hear how the lot got damaged. Could you maybe talk about that somewhere or sometime please
I think it had to do with the fact that when the stock broke the lock somehow got yanked real hard and it ended up breaking one of the springs. I can make a new spring. Matter of fact, I think I'm going to whenever Garrett turns this into a canoe gun, but I have always wanted to prove the fudds wrong that keeps saying these guns will blow up with just a blank cartridge and this gun gave the perfect opportunity for that
@@Real11BangBang Ty so much for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it! I love your channel! I've gotten to the point where I dismiss those people that poo- poo the India made muskets as musket snobs. Only customs or Pedersolis are good in their minds. I can't remember if it was a video, or a written article, but some recent research into the actual steel used in thes muskets, the Military Heritage ones in particular, is the same steel used in the gears of car transmissions AND AR15 rifles! That's some quality steel! You video only reinforces this! I hope a lot of people see this video of yours. It's the definitive STFU to these musket snobs!
The one thing i never seen when they go and blow these guns is what could and have happened in wars is put load on top of load on top of load because there gun wasn't firing. what would actually happen if it did go off if my question
Interesting. I agree it was the more mass of 3 balls rather than one ball. I’d like your observations on if there was unburned powder that ejected out the barrel along with the single ball. I suspect most of the powder > 300 grs just was ejected out the barrrl. But I’d very much like to hear your observations & opinion. Thanks
Yes, I'm going to say that once we got past 300 grains it started pushing a lot of that powder out the barrel due to the giant fireballs coming out of the end of the gun
Excellent video. Is the barrel a strait taper from the breach to the muzzle? That might account for just the muzzle splitting, being the thinnest point.
Not quite. It's a traditional trade gun barrel profile that is octagonal toward the breach and then about a foot and a half in goes to a set of what are known as wedding bands which transition from octagonal to round the balls were actually above the wedding bands and in the rounded part of the barrel.
@@Real11BangBang thinking about it more, I suspect that the charge was expanding the barrel the whole time, not past it's elasticity though, and when it got to the muzzle it split as the very end of the muzzle is not supported by anything.
Should try pushing the balls down part way to simulate improper seating. Would be good data because I always hear about properly seating the ball being important but there's not many vids on what happens if you load the correct charge put improperly load the ball.
The ones that do let go is always with the reenactor weenies , due to poor maintenance/cleaning which they are notorious for ! I've been shooting India made muskets for 50 years and never a mishap ! Nuff said !
I don't know if I mentioned it in the video or not, but I haven't cleaned this gun since I broke it in 2020 so it was also being shot with an extremely fouled and rusty bore
Did you say you bought a maple stock to restore that one? Going to use it on the new one you get now? Pretty impressive video though. I am not the least big afraide of my Veteran Arms fusil now. Only real mod I had to do to it was strengthing the stock at the breech with acraglass because too much wood was removed under the barrel breech.
So yes, I was going to restore this one and I did order a maple stock blank off of gum broker. However, whenever I got the blank in, somebody had already channeled the barrel for a much wider profile barrel so I could not use it but Garrett is taking this gun off of my hands and he is going to restock it. Cut it down at the wedding bands and turn it into a canoe gun
@@Real11BangBang Cant wait to see that Canoe gun later. Maybe you can make a nice fowler or something with a larger gauge using that maple stock later on.
Would have loved to seen this test performed over a chronograph to see the point of diminishing returns and how much is the maximum velocity attainable in a black powder projectile
Maybe you could still do that, knowing that even with an UNGODLY huge powder charge, of 4F!?!, and still didn't have the catastrophic failure you expected, you can Chrono a more "reasonable" load? Also, did you also put to rest the "gotta use this particular granulation for this caliber" question as well? Could it be that modern manufacturing processes are far better than even the absolute best techniques of the past, making guns stronger today than they were in the past?
I've always had that question in the back of my mind. "What if?" followed by the people, without proof, to preach "I told you so!" if something happened. I'm glad you put that to rest. I have had some issues with my lock on mine but haven't found any other issues to be concerned with yet. Sorry for your loss but thanks for sharing.
I will tell you this. I've been doing a lot of work on locks here lately and figuring out how to perfect them and when it comes to faulty locks, the rifle shoppe is your friend!
This video blew up the Traditional Muzzleloading Forum (smoothbore sub forum 8 pages long and running!). The elitism really came through the various comments. Good on you guys. My first Indian musket ever should be delivered this coming Monday (matchlock). Thanks for all you do!
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Yes, I went ahead and looked it up and I would really like to see some actual footage or or records of the test that was mentioned where they put a thousand grains of 4F black powder into a paper towel tube. Wrapped it in duct tape. Put a projectile in the end and it worked perfectly lol It would appear that the thread has been taken down
Great information! That really does put "paid to" to the appellation "Bombay Pipe Bomb," that I have heard for years. I would suggest that the only minor flaw in your experiment is the danger of generalizing from a limited sample--meaning that just because one holds up does not mean that all others would too, since their quality control may not be consistent. I am not arguing that point (I have no idea), I am merely pointing out the nature of the scientific method as it applies here. The only thing I would actually take exception to here is the comment you made about how "hot" the powder is. All powder of the same density is the same, regardless of granulation: 4F is not "hotter" than 1F, it is simply consumed sooner since black powder granules burn from the outside in, and finer granulations have less surface area and so are consumed faster. Different *brands* can be hotter, as Swiss is hotter than crappy Goex, for example, but that is about manufacturing, not about granulation. This is a common figure of speech in the black powder community, and we need to stop saying it. Good work, Ethan, and thank you for sharing.
Thanks for the good comment, yeah I realized I messed up about FFFF comment as soon as I went and reviewed everything Black powder's video on the subject lol and yes, you are correct. This is a test subject of one. However, I think we're up to 20 plus Indian guns at this point that we proof test every single one with a double powder charge and you know me my powder charges are nothing to sneeze at in the first place haha. For instance, the matchlock got a 480 grain proof test of serpentine powder, Ole char got a 400 grain charge of swiss, etc and they have all passed with flying colors so I guess that might help a little bit with that. I knew that this gun would get past the 600 grains without any problems but I honestly thought it was going to come apart at the seams with that last charge. Thanks Ethan
For a given charge weight and composition, and assuming the manufacturing was the same, a finer powder will generate pressure faster than a coarser one. This is because it's consumed faster and generates gas more rapidly. Depending on the barrel length, this more rapid rise in pressure can indeed make the ball leave the barrel faster for the same charge on a fine powder vs. a coarse powder. This would certainly make the fine powder appear "hotter" than coarse powder in a short barrel.
@@vicroc4 yes, that's correct. But it doesn't create higher pressures, it just achieves full pressure faster. Thus, it's not "hotter," as the term is usually used. You're also right about barrel length, which is why finer granulations work better for smaller barrel lengths.
Here's a unpopular ideea: If you still have that barrel and lock working , try using a duplex load with a slow burning smokeless powder. Something slow burning , suitable for a .308 and a black powder. The point is to have around 8-10 grs of BP on the bottom of the barrel for ignition than add a starting load of 20 grs smokeless with a patched ball. Work your way up from there. If you manage to get to around 35 grs without any issues, add some corn meal to act as a buffer between the powder and ball. Curious to see if it can hold a pressure of 40-44 grs without bulging. It should absorb some of that pressure spike. There was this guy on youtube using pistol powder in an Pietta Remington revolver. Used around 6 grs and cornmeal for filler. I know the whole story with smokeless and muzzleloaders, but nobody is saying to overload that barrel into a pipebomb.
I can tell you that my golf ball mortar charges START at 200 grains of powder, so it just amazes me that this gun held up that well with five times what I put in a mortar that weighs 10 pounds. I think this video proves once and for all that the Indian made guns are exactly what they are, a really good deal for the money you're paying for them.
That was awesome! Do they all come from the same place? Military Heritage/Veteran Arms and other places all seem like they sell the same models just with slightly different pricing and I have no idea what the differences are if any.
I'm pretty sure they all come from the same place. I do notice though that different companies do sometimes have different models. For instance, veteran arms has a Spanish m57 that military heritage does not
@@Real11BangBang Thanks! Hope to see you review some different models. At least one of these companies should sponsor you after this video, I am sure you sent many people sitting on the fence straight over to buy one of their own.
@homerj109 Veteran arms drills the touch holes and tunes the locks, as well as doing some finish work. It's worth the extra cost if you're not up to doing it yourself.
So the muskets look like a lot of fun...something new to play with. Just been too many irons in the fire lately. That said, the MH SxS 20 gauge flinter looks like it would be all kinds of fun at the trap range! Do you (or viewers) have any experience with this? Many thanks.
I have a SxS percussion cap shotgun, and it's by far the most fun thing I own to shoot. I promise you that if you get that shotgun you won't regret it, black powder shotguns are endless fun, and the ability to make custom loads gives you an advantage when hunting.
As far as the next French musket goes that I want to get from military heritage, I need to get a 1728 musket. It's one that's been on my list for a long time
Basically you are creating 'proof loads' which is valuable info. especially like you adding more than one projectile. It would be extremely boring (for a vid) but helpful if you say did a 400 grain charge over and over and over LOL 20 or more times to check for a failure... that may be why some have problems with their guns... In fairness the Walkers that failed did not fail first shot.... sooo... I actually am of two minds on testing.
Sounds like an idea for a future video. Once I have another musket I'm willing to blow up lol. The main purpose of this video was to prove that with black powder it's almost impossible to blow one of these guns up unless you're just being stupid with it
That's odd usually Robert answers every time I have called him. Anyhow, if you click on the item you're wanting to order and you scroll down, you will see a blue button that says order. Now copy your item number beforehand and then follow the prompts
Hello bang bang I have a question as a poor working man you can’t afford a 2k plus built smooth bore I will be getting a India made gun how hard it it to drill a MH out what should I look for before I will and you you prefer the fusil d chasse or the NW trade gun more? And what are the major differences between to two other than the snake in the side and I think the NW trade doesn’t have the trigger guard in the wood just screwed in is that true? And help well be greatly appreciated!!
hello. If you go back and watch our overall discussion video on military heritage arms ruclips.net/video/taQTktYbEAA/видео.htmlsi=8KVuzxGiCmtRPLM6 We show drilling the touch hole. As for the Northwest VS the fusi, we have videos on both of them and it really is personal preference. Or what time. you prefer to reenact? Whereas the fusi is typically earlier say 1700 to 1770. The Northwest trade gun typically goes from 1770 to the late 1800s. Bear in mind that the wood is slightly thicker On these two particular india made guns than the originals, whereas generally india made guns that are copies of military weapons are a little closer It's not bad at all it's just not 100 percent correct. As for the differences, it's really just that the trigger guard is bigger on the Northwest gun and the stock is shaped different with a straight stock on the Northwest gun, it also has the serpant side plate. the fusil has what's called a cow's hoof stalk meaningit slopes down quite a bit at the rear. The only thing we have noticed is that the fusil will sometimes kick your chin a little harder on account of the sloped stock.
I had always heard that you could not put enough BP into say a rifle and for sure a pistol to blow it up.... that the only way was to have an 'air gap' But... most people don't know that steel... much less modern steel was unheard of here until mid to late 1800's... Colt Walkers would blow up with 60-70 grains of BP... sometimes... not always and never very dramatically but the cyl would be ruined at least. Walkers were essentially wrought iron.... like railings around a balcony now. Cannons would burst early on but again...mostly if there was an air gap or a huge metallurgy flaw which of course, was common. It is surprising actually to me that more did not burst. With modern steel? and the pressures BP produce? it seems unlikely. My buddy belongs to a bowling ball cannon group. the cannons (more like civil war mortars) are made from pipeline casings... Like really high strength alloy steel.. they are maybe a tenth or less thick than say a real cannon of the 1800's would be. These things take a charge that throws a bowling ball a mile or more. no problem I think..... I.... think... that modern clones of BP guns have WAY more strength than anything that is original. My guess is... and it is only a guess... that modern replicas of Walkers have been................way overloaded... with no ill results. BP only tho. I have seen vids of guys stuffing Walker like charges in 1860 army or 1858 Remington replicas with no harm. I have several inexpensive hardness testers. surface test only of course.. but no one surface hardens a barrel say. These things look like say a checkering file for wood but are graduated... like if this file scratches the metal it is less than 40 brinnel if not it is more etc.
The 1860 Army or 58 Remington cannot chamber any where near the amount of powder as a Walker. At most, the '60 Army or '58 Remington can chamber 40 grains of BP, where the Walker can chamber up to 50 or 60 grain charges. By volume, that's a huge difference. Regardless, that amount is not enough BP to "blow up" the gun, at least not a modern repro. I believe it may have been some dumbass loading smokeless powder in a BP revolver. That WILL blow up a gun with an excessive load.
I would say that 40 is kinda near 50 considering that there is a lot less meat between the cylinders. But yeah.. I only use 30 for my Army@@johnmullholand2044
I'd like to see this test with store bought powder. Since that's what most of us would use. And use a single ball/wad or patch. Just as an average shooter would load it. And use a chronograph. I'm very curious to see the velocity reached. It's time to scientifically end this horrible rumor about the safety of these imports.
Why in the world would you use 4Fg powder (FFFFg) for this? 2Fg is the normal load and anything over 100-gr. by volume is considered a lot. 4Fg has pressure spikes far higher and reached more quickly than 2Fg, which has much larger granules. Still, it wasn't until you put 1,000-gr. down the barrel and three .60 caliber balls that it bit the big one. Odds are with 2Fg, it might have even lived through that. I would have been interested in seeing a buck and ball load, which was used during the Rev War. I know of no documentation of using three .60 caliber balls as a load. I do have an X-ray picture of a buck and ball load with buckshot loaded first, then the main lead ball and in front of that some small shot like large bird shot. Nonetheless, I'd say that strange test with 4Fg, which no one uses in smoothbore muskets, is a pretty convincing testimonial to the durability of that Military Heritage French Musket.
The reason we used 4F was because we wanted to prove that it could take it so that we wouldn't have somebody coming along later. Complaining that we didn't push it to the limit. That was the whole point of this test was to push the gun to the limit and see where it would give out unironically even where we pushed it well. Yes it was a catastrophic failure. It wasn't a catastrophic failure that would have ended in someone being killed so I think we proved these. Indian made muskets are pretty stout considering we put a 3-pounder artillery charge down the barrel and it didn't come apart at the breech
@@Real11BangBang But you miss the point. NO ONE USES 2Fg black powder in a French or English musket or even a Black Powder Rifle and certainly not in a longrifle. It has no relevance to the actual use of the musket. Anyone who has ever used one will immediately think you don't know what you're talking about and never get to end of the video, where you blow it up. Knee jerk reaction is to close the video as soon as you say you are using 4Fg powder. 4Fg is commonly used for BP pistols and as a priming powder. Again, no one uses it in rifles or muskets. 3Fg is common for rifles and 2Fg for muskets. The only reason I watched this to the end was because a friend posted it on the muzzleloading forum. I'm glad I watched it, just wish you used more relevant materials. You also used home-made black powder so that's also an unknown factor, unlike Swiss, Goex, Olde Eynsford by GOEX, Graf, etc. Your home-made BP may be just as good as Swiss (especially if you use willow charcoal), better than it, or worse than it. If you are going to use your home-made powder just explain, which powder it is comparable to and that you tested it against whatever powder you compare it to. I still gave it a thumbs up. Hope you were able to replace that musket with the proceeds from your video.
I got the long brown Bess I love it I shot cotton balls on new years we short it tell Itvwas so dirty the hole was clogged and I took a paper clip an un clogged it as shot it 10 more times tell It clogged again my son loves it I need a pistol next
You do realize we quite literally put a 3-pounder artillery charge of lead and powder down the barrel of this gun that hasn't been cleaned since 2020 and has a rusted bore and the only injuries the shooter would have sustained was probably a broken or dislocated shoulder from the recoil Right? lol
@@BuckskinsBlackPowder Because people keep spreading misinformation about them. And if you want to talk about mileage I've got a Charleville. I've ran 3000 rounds of 155+ grain powder charges through it. Most of those Swiss Guess what? I actually prefer to shoot it over my pedersoli
@Real11BangBang it's not misinformation. The breech plugs ad threads are very crude. Pull one out and take a look. There's more than enough proof of folks having to rebreech these junkers due to plugs being threaded 1/2" longer than the actual breech plug. Cracks in the threads, finger tight breech plugs, breech plugs that wiggle while installed into the barrel. Anyone shooting one of these, I hope you have good health insurance.
I guess I’m a snobby “elitetist.” I won’t shoot or own an Indian gun nor would I put 200 grains in a Colerain or Rice barrel on any of my custom guns. I’ve held the India guns, there aren’t 2 exactly the same, cheap wood and questionable quality control. I just prefer to stay away and spend a slight bit more on something that is in no way questionable. 🤷🏻♂️I guess the price is what attracts then leads to excuses to justify it. You pick on pedersoli for not being exactly accurate then buy a gun with wood that was never used and is crap. I’m not impressed
I think you'd be surprised at how well some of these guns are made. I for instance have a. "1766 Charleville" from militaryheritage that out of the box was a fine shooting musket. However, I did notice that it wasn't exactly historically accurate. The wood was extremely high quality with nice figure and I feed it a steady diet of 150 to 200 grain powder charges and shot it so much that I ended up wearing out the hammer I rebuilt the lock with rifle shop Hammer and springs and then took the wood which was once again very good quality and took it down to the correct dimensions for a 1763-66 model musket and I would say that's one big difference between it and a pedrozole. I can remove wood from an Indian made musket to get the correct shape. I can't add wood to a pedersoli to make it correct. And yes, I own a pedersoli and it's not as special to me as my Indian made 1763-66 which now looks absolutely gorgeous! And is 100% more historically correct than the pedrazole version aside from the wood type which if we're being honest, pedersoli is not correct either considering they are not using correct French walnut. And yes there is a difference
@@Real11BangBanglike I said, I’m not impressed. They do occasionally fail prof testing in Europe when they are imported. (they require proofing before they can be sold) You might be fine until you’re not. I’d much rather a quality gun that’s actually a gun and made/proofed to be safe. I’d rather have walnut or maple than teakwood. I’d rather have spare parts available that are interchangeable. I’d rather have a lock that isn’t questionable with tempering. You get what you pay for. There should be a HUGE disclaimer with those guns. People have no clue they aren’t proofed, no liability on the manufacturer. You are a test pilot with each one
I wonder if the first bulge was where the pressure spiked from the resistance of the balls. Then as the powder column started expanding and burning and building pressure and the balls start getting to the end of the barrel where it's thinner and right in the microsecond they left the barrel the rest of the charge ignited in the oxygen rich atmosphere and peeled the barrel end. I find this stuff fascinating. I wonder if it would have changed if you didn't seat theballs on the top of the powder. But everything blackpowder already showed that didn't matter but he was using normal charges.
So I forgot to mention it in the video, but that bulge is exactly where the round balls were sitting in the barrel, so I think you pretty much nailed this one
@@Real11BangBang The oxygen necessary to burn the powder is in the oxidizer, KNO3 (the O3 part). Adding an "oxygen rich atmosphere" will not make the burning happen any more energetically than it happens inside the barrel. Black powder guns could be fired in a vacuum or other oxygen starved environment, because the necessary oxygen is in the potassium nitrate (see, the waterproof fuse.) The proportions of the components in black powder are such that no additional oxygen is needed or helpful. To analogize with a gas engine, adding more air (oxidizer) to the fuel air mixture won't produce more energy -- unless you add more fuel to oxidize.
The pressure simply exceeded the mechanical ability of the barrel wall to constrain the pressure just at the end of the barrel. There are two possible reasons for this: the barrel became too thin to restrain the pressure just at that location; and, it is at the very tip of the barrel where there is no additional material to allow for elastic or plastic deformation, so the barrel exceeded the elastic and plastic limit of the metal and yielded. If the barrel had ended in the middle of the bulge, it possibly would have split at that point, but as there was material on both sides of the bulge, while the metal exceeded the elastic (stretch and return to shape) limit of the metal, it could flow plastically (stretch but not return to shape) to allow the bulge to occur. Either or both of these factors could have caused the end of the barrel to yield. (At the bulge the barrel may also have been significantly thicker than at the tip, so that it could flow plastically without reaching the yield limit.)
The pressure did not "spike" just in the last inch or so of the barrel and "blow it up." It may have been too great for the material at that point, but it was not significantly higher there than it was at the point just where the split stopped. Any powder burning as it left the barrel would have immediately encountered a drop in pressure as it reached the freedom of the atmosphere (relative to the confines of the barrel): the powder would have been burning in an infinite (relatively) volume of space instead of within the confines of the barrel, and so the pressure could not possibly have spiked *after* it left the barrel. You can see that the barrel stretched over the inch and a half or so behind the tip, and that at some point the barrel did not stretch but looked (to the naked eye) intact. It was thick enough there for elastic (stretch and return to shape) deformation to take place instead of plastic (stretch and stay stretched) deformation or yielding to occur.
My 2 cents on the subject.
How about the balls he had to have to light that thing and run, my god nothing’ll make a man run faster 😂😂
Thank you, you are probably one of the few people who actually give honest reviews on India muskets. I fully intend on getting one of these soon.
The locks are generally not tuned and/or hardened properly, and the grain structure of the wood at the wrist of the stocks normally aren't ideal. The barrels not being up to par with shooting black powder was never actually an issue with these.
@@chickensandwich1589unfortunately people see a low price tag and make up stories
G'Day,
I've had one of these Indian Brown Besses for around 40 years and have generally loaded 100grains of 3f powder with either a paper patched or ticking patch .662 to .70 round ball. Never had any problems. After watching your proof testing, I think it shows that a lot of the bad press that Indian muskets get may come from Pedersoli owner snobbery! I also have two Indian made Enfield smoothbores in 20 gauge that I regularly shoot #6 shot or a.562 patched round ball with 60 grains of 3F. Again, never had any problems. I need to dust off my muzzleloaders, it's been a while since I fired them. Enjoyed your video.
Cheers,
Steve
Thank you sir for the fine comment. Yeah, I'm kind of with you on where this whole theory of the exploding Indian muskets is coming from. I've had several people tell me that if I ever get a. Pederizoli I'll never go back. Funny thing is I own a pederizoli and while it is a fine shooting musket, I can't quite find the $1,500 worth of difference between it and my military heritage guns lol
Thanks again
Ethan
@Real11BangBang At least with the Indian made guns they have period correct markings, which way better then "75 Cal, black powder made in Italy" stamped on the barrel. I had some guy telling me the breechplugs are smooth "corks" hammered in the breech, like really?
I like the way he's doing that with a tire
You went all the way to India to blow up their muskets?! Well Dangol !
Durability testing. 11BangBang style.
I would have loved to have seen the loads over a chrono! First smooth bore flintlock to pass 3,000 FPS lol
shooting friggin cannon loads of 4F out of a musket, and you can still cut that sucker down into a canoe piece after it decides to go bananas.
100% my experience with these muskets. The stock will go before the barrels will! lol *Edit: Man, you should send this video to Military Heritage as testament
Yep and so now every time I get a comment of somebody telling me that I'm proof loading my Indian made 1766 Charleville with my 155 gr load. I'm going to send them this video
What a bang for the new year
lol yeah... really rung her in!
Seems to me the moral of the story is not all the rumors are true. Good job love the video.
I've been calling it for years and I've seen that the rumor have slowed down a little bit but they're still the old fudds out there who are screaming at me about how I'm going to blow my gun up because I shoot 200 grain charges lol
@@Real11BangBang yep I know what you meen get the same becouse I shoot Damascus shot guns and do it with smokless factory ammo
Now, if that is not the best advertisement for these India made muskets....I don't know what is.
Sturdy barrels made of modern steel just about cannot be split with any amount of BP and a single "in spec" projectile. It needs something akin to a barrel obstruction to burst them. I am not surprised that it took a huge charge and multiple projectiles to cause significant damage.
Impressive! I believe that with large powder loads, 1F powder will actually outperform 3F powder. The burning of the powder spreads easier and faster through the larger kernels of powder. Fine powder will get pushed out of the barrel before burning, if the load is to large. I believe this is why coarser powder is recommended for larger calibers. Lots og guys use 3F for everything, but I don't buy into that. Just mentioning this, as an idea for another video. Not at all meant as critisism. I think the comment about some of the powder exploding just as the balls left the barrel, was defenitely on to something. In my "Dimwit the last mountainman" videos, I try to be carefull with my antique guns. But I did accidentaly double load an Enfield P53 with minieball papercartridges. Recoil was stout, but me and the gun didn't take any damage. Happy New Year from Norway!
Don't forget to hit like!
I used patched balls on my proof test, however, there's a channel, if I can find it again I'll come back here and edit this. Anyway they did the research and if you are woding the powder then running balls on top the wod. You need to fill between two ball with buckshot to act as a buffer. .
Military Heritage is where I bought my fusil de chasse and I was quite happy with the quick service and shipping and the price. Still $599 (U.S.) I'm sure they make more than a good bit of profit on it, but it's still well worth the price to me, as it is a well made gun. With even limited care, I'd expect to get 100 years or more use out of it. It's like the wrought iron I forge, I make it with the intention that it will last at least 100 years and maybe a couple of centuries more. (But A-hole people still want to buy the Chinese cheapos that they have to throw away at the end of a camping season. I'm really IMPRESSED with how that musket held up. That was one hell of a LOT of fine grain powder and a pretty big load of lead to build barrel pressure. I've proofed and double-proofed mine with the coarsest powder I could find (2-F) and I'd really rather be shooting it with 1-F. It's nice to know that it could handle a full load of 4-F in an emergency! Anyway, that was a GREAT TEST and you're sure to give a lot of BP shooters with 'Indian" guns a lot of peace of mind. On another note, you could probably cut that barrel somewhere behind the "cherry" bulge and do a little bit of wood and metal filing work and turn those 'remains' into a long barrel flintlock pistol. I'd use the rest of the barrel for making knives and flint strikers. It seems like it'd be good hardenable steel for that. A flintlock pistol with a long barrel would remind me of "The Joker" or a Thompson Contender on steroids.
Now thats how you proof a musket!
Good morning from Syracuse NY brother and everyone thank you for sharing your adventures and Happy New Year everyone
Happy new year!
Thank you my friends
NOPE...NOPE...NOT DOING THAT.
Great video guys, happy new year.
Happy new year!
Any firearm can fail if missed used.
Absolutely
I bought an English style trade gun from Military Heritage. I had a touch hole liner installed. The gunsmith who hates these guns told me not to load more than 60 grains in it. He said it had a good lock and sparks well. The trigger weight is pretty good. My only complaint is some shallow pits in the bore.
glad YOU did that. well done. I never saw IV8888 doing the full barrel black thing but I DO recall him stuffing a overcharge of (As I recall) IMR3031 in one. IE, a smokeless powder. it demolished a pretty gun.
Thanks grey pilgrim Yeah he did one a while ago where he just loaded 160 g into a CVA 45 caliber rifle and then filled it to the end and put two round balls on top. (I thought he had just done one until I watched that video again this morning) but even then it completely destroyed the stock. And honestly I don't think he had as much powder in that 45 caliber when he filled it up clear to the end of the barrel as we did in this .62
Smokeless does the trick. Kentucky Ballistics has also been popping firearms with smokeless charges.
But look at the difference in the way the barrel material failed. In the smokeless powder event, the gun failed right at the ignition point, and it came apart in shards, with very little apparent stretching of the metal at the failure. This indicated a very immediate loading of the metal past its ultimate yield strength, as the overpressure was far in excess of the material's capacity to resist stretching. The rifle barrel on that gun was of near uniform thickness along its length. In the blackpowder event, the pressure did not exceed the capabilities of the barrel until the location of the balls, where the material stretched until the balls moved down the bore, which reduced the pressure in the barrel (increased the volume) to the point that it did not exceed the ability of the material to handle the pressure -- until it got to the end, where the barrel was (most likely) at its thinnest in that type of barrel design.
With the India gun, the pressure at the breechplug and the pressure at the balls (obstruction) would have been the same, so the barrel must have been thinner near the obstruction -- thick enough not to yield completely, but thin enough to stretch. Then as the balls moved along, and the pressure dropped in the barrel (increasing volume -- the barrel did not stretch once the balls started moving) the barrel could contain the reduced pressure without stretching, UNTIL, at the very end, it became thin enough that even the progressively decreasing pressure was too much for the material.
These really are fabulous tests to compare. Even if you have a massive overload with black powder, the pressure is not going to be high enough (in a representative India gun) to shatter the barrel in the way that people think of a pipe bomb exploding (as did happen with the smokeless powder.)
@@carlericvonkleistiii2188 Yeah, in a slow motion sort of way, there's a lot of dynamic things happening. Really, it's hard to call internal ballistics an "explosion" unless what you have is basically a sealed, or completely enclosed vessel without a means to allow expansion outside bursting.
Thanks for sharing. Good to know. 👍
So they are Bombay pipe bombs. Just pour in a whole powder horn, ram in a few balls, and the junk blows up... Great start to the new year videos. You guys are the bomb...
lol
That settles that! I read where the India made muzzleloaders are unsafe, which is pure BS. With max loads for the caliber, they have the same safety margin as any other new muzzle loader. The only issue I had with mine is the screw thread sizes are neither metric nor SAE but seem to be British Whitworth which makes sense as India was known as the British Indian empire until 1947.
Awesome video. Clears that up.
Glad it helped!
Well done and happy new year! Facts are stubborn things. 👍👍
Yes they are!
Excellent. I look forward to you reviewing the replacement for us😊
You and me both!
You and me both!
I'm impressed. I can't believe that musket is still largely in one piece.
Thanks rifle chair. Yeah I've got to admit I was kind of impressed myself, I told my little brother that I was convinced that that gun was going to come apart at the seams with that load.
Great job guys! The test that needed to happen that no one has ever done. Hope this puts the myth of the "Pipe Bomb" Musket to bed.
That was a really extensive stress test of the barrel.
This is what happens whenever I get tired of having to explain that I'm not crazy when I put 200 grain charges in Indian made muskets lol
@@Real11BangBang I mean it's your gun. put as much powder in there as you want, Apparently it will take it.
Now try it with the ball halfway down the barrel.....
I've already tried this off camera. It didn't do much lol
You proved your point. But I wonder now how far you could have gone continuing as you were or with a buck and ball or shot load?
well honestly the 600 grain charge is twice the proof charge of pedersoli so It did seem a bit redundant. Also, we were running out of fuse lol
Well considering it just barely blew up with roughly 1200 grains of powder and the barrel in three round balls and about three inches of linen patches. On top of that I would say that with a single round ball you could fill this gun clear to the end of the barrel and it would not blow up
Oh I understand completely and I hope you didn't take it as a criticism. But I'm a geek and I love data and I was just thinking out loud and it inspired me as to something to look into if I'm ever able to afford it. Your videos rock!@@Real11BangBang
Thanks! Proves a lot of old wives tales to be false.
1000 plus grains. I don't own an Indian musket yet, but I am glad you did this video. That's all I read on muzzleloading forums is how dangerous they are. I have seen inline guns blow up easier.
Wonder if Scott from Kentucky Ballistics could of taken that recoil? 😉
lol well that would interesting
He has a gun that generates 200 lbs. of force at the buttstock, and has fired it multiple times on the same day. I'd completely believe he's tough enough to tank that. And hey, he already knows how to deal with a gun that blows up while he's holding it.
From all the research I did around this Christmas, I came to the conclusion that they were perfectly fine to use, and anything else was just a campfire story or operator error. This video would have saved me hours of reading though. Thanks for doing the test and the great video!
You're welcome! And thanks for the support. Hope you have fun with your new Indian musket
A very interesting video I have never believed in the Bombay pipe bomb myth like many other myths I believe that more than powder and ball are at fault. For instance poor cleaning practices and little or no training these kinds of issues lead to more "accidents " than any other causes.
Exactly and I think the main problem is guys who are new to muzzleloading and think powder is powder and try to load their guns up with smokeless.
I understand how the stock was broken on the fusil de chasse, but I would really like to hear how the lot got damaged. Could you maybe talk about that somewhere or sometime please
I think it had to do with the fact that when the stock broke the lock somehow got yanked real hard and it ended up breaking one of the springs. I can make a new spring. Matter of fact, I think I'm going to whenever Garrett turns this into a canoe gun, but I have always wanted to prove the fudds wrong that keeps saying these guns will blow up with just a blank cartridge and this gun gave the perfect opportunity for that
@@Real11BangBang Ty so much for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it! I love your channel!
I've gotten to the point where I dismiss those people that poo- poo the India made muskets as musket snobs. Only customs or Pedersolis are good in their minds.
I can't remember if it was a video, or a written article, but some recent research into the actual steel used in thes muskets, the Military Heritage ones in particular, is the same steel used in the gears of car transmissions AND AR15 rifles! That's some quality steel!
You video only reinforces this! I hope a lot of people see this video of yours. It's the definitive STFU to these musket snobs!
Well done!
Thank you
That way phenomenal!
Happy new years 11bangbang!
That’s fuckin awesome. Hope you get the ad revenue! Also subscribed!
Yes!. Next let's see how much smokeless powder it can take haha
Happy New Year to the subscribers of 11 bang bang and my sons!
At a certain amount of powder your just blowing powder out the barrel. The trick to blowing them up is to not seat the bullet
I believe if you go check out everything black powders RUclips channel he has a video on that very subject
You can make a carbine.
Garrett has already agreed to take up the project of turning this into a canoe gun by cutting it down at the wedding bands
The one thing i never seen when they go and blow these guns is what could and have happened in wars is put load on top of load on top of load because there gun wasn't firing. what would actually happen if it did go off if my question
rest in peace fusil de chasse 😔
taps in the back ground
Interesting. I agree it was the more mass of 3 balls rather than one ball. I’d like your observations on if there was unburned powder that ejected out the barrel along with the single ball. I suspect most of the powder > 300 grs just was ejected out the barrrl. But I’d very much like to hear your observations & opinion. Thanks
Yes, I'm going to say that once we got past 300 grains it started pushing a lot of that powder out the barrel due to the giant fireballs coming out of the end of the gun
Excellent video. Is the barrel a strait taper from the breach to the muzzle? That might account for just the muzzle splitting, being the thinnest point.
Not quite. It's a traditional trade gun barrel profile that is octagonal toward the breach and then about a foot and a half in goes to a set of what are known as wedding bands which transition from octagonal to round the balls were actually above the wedding bands and in the rounded part of the barrel.
@@Real11BangBang thinking about it more, I suspect that the charge was expanding the barrel the whole time, not past it's elasticity though, and when it got to the muzzle it split as the very end of the muzzle is not supported by anything.
Should try pushing the balls down part way to simulate improper seating. Would be good data because I always hear about properly seating the ball being important but there's not many vids on what happens if you load the correct charge put improperly load the ball.
If you go over to everything black powder's channel. He has a video on what he calls fudd. Lore, and that very scenario is in the video
Well, that settles it 👍
The ones that do let go is always with the reenactor weenies , due to poor maintenance/cleaning which they are notorious for ! I've been shooting India made muskets for 50 years and never a mishap ! Nuff said !
100%
I don't know if I mentioned it in the video or not, but I haven't cleaned this gun since I broke it in 2020 so it was also being shot with an extremely fouled and rusty bore
Wow!
You are too funny I wish I could play like that. Stout barrel!!!
I am impressed! That is one tuff musket! I have to have one of these Indian made musket.David Back.
Yep, my thoughts exactly
Did you say you bought a maple stock to restore that one? Going to use it on the new one you get now? Pretty impressive video though. I am not the least big afraide of my Veteran Arms fusil now. Only real mod I had to do to it was strengthing the stock at the breech with acraglass because too much wood was removed under the barrel breech.
So yes, I was going to restore this one and I did order a maple stock blank off of gum broker. However, whenever I got the blank in, somebody had already channeled the barrel for a much wider profile barrel so I could not use it but Garrett is taking this gun off of my hands and he is going to restock it. Cut it down at the wedding bands and turn it into a canoe gun
@@Real11BangBang Cant wait to see that Canoe gun later. Maybe you can make a nice fowler or something with a larger gauge using that maple stock later on.
Would have loved to seen this test performed over a chronograph to see the point of diminishing returns and how much is the maximum velocity attainable in a black powder projectile
We had discussed this but due to fears of flying shrapnel we decided not to in fear of our chronograph getting destroyed lol
@@Real11BangBang totally understand that..
Maybe you could still do that, knowing that even with an UNGODLY huge powder charge, of 4F!?!, and still didn't have the catastrophic failure you expected, you can Chrono a more "reasonable" load?
Also, did you also put to rest the "gotta use this particular granulation for this caliber" question as well? Could it be that modern manufacturing processes are far better than even the absolute best techniques of the past, making guns stronger today than they were in the past?
@johnmullholand2044 I do believe that the channel everything black powder has tested all the different granulation in a musket and chronographed them
I've always had that question in the back of my mind. "What if?" followed by the people, without proof, to preach "I told you so!" if something happened. I'm glad you put that to rest. I have had some issues with my lock on mine but haven't found any other issues to be concerned with yet. Sorry for your loss but thanks for sharing.
I will tell you this. I've been doing a lot of work on locks here lately and figuring out how to perfect them and when it comes to faulty locks, the rifle shoppe is your friend!
This is amazing. Thanks for doing this lol
lol your welcome
This video blew up the Traditional Muzzleloading Forum (smoothbore sub forum 8 pages long and running!). The elitism really came through the various comments. Good on you guys. My first Indian musket ever should be delivered this coming Monday (matchlock). Thanks for all you do!
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Yes, I went ahead and looked it up and I would really like to see some actual footage or or records of the test that was mentioned where they put a thousand grains of 4F black powder into a paper towel tube. Wrapped it in duct tape. Put a projectile in the end and it worked perfectly lol
It would appear that the thread has been taken down
Great information! That really does put "paid to" to the appellation "Bombay Pipe Bomb," that I have heard for years. I would suggest that the only minor flaw in your experiment is the danger of generalizing from a limited sample--meaning that just because one holds up does not mean that all others would too, since their quality control may not be consistent. I am not arguing that point (I have no idea), I am merely pointing out the nature of the scientific method as it applies here. The only thing I would actually take exception to here is the comment you made about how "hot" the powder is. All powder of the same density is the same, regardless of granulation: 4F is not "hotter" than 1F, it is simply consumed sooner since black powder granules burn from the outside in, and finer granulations have less surface area and so are consumed faster. Different *brands* can be hotter, as Swiss is hotter than crappy Goex, for example, but that is about manufacturing, not about granulation. This is a common figure of speech in the black powder community, and we need to stop saying it. Good work, Ethan, and thank you for sharing.
Thanks for the good comment, yeah I realized I messed up about FFFF comment as soon as I went and reviewed everything Black powder's video on the subject lol and yes, you are correct. This is a test subject of one. However, I think we're up to 20 plus Indian guns at this point that we proof test every single one with a double powder charge and you know me my powder charges are nothing to sneeze at in the first place haha. For instance, the matchlock got a 480 grain proof test of serpentine powder, Ole char got a 400 grain charge of swiss, etc and they have all passed with flying colors so I guess that might help a little bit with that. I knew that this gun would get past the 600 grains without any problems but I honestly thought it was going to come apart at the seams with that last charge.
Thanks
Ethan
For a given charge weight and composition, and assuming the manufacturing was the same, a finer powder will generate pressure faster than a coarser one. This is because it's consumed faster and generates gas more rapidly. Depending on the barrel length, this more rapid rise in pressure can indeed make the ball leave the barrel faster for the same charge on a fine powder vs. a coarse powder. This would certainly make the fine powder appear "hotter" than coarse powder in a short barrel.
@@vicroc4 yes, that's correct. But it doesn't create higher pressures, it just achieves full pressure faster. Thus, it's not "hotter," as the term is usually used. You're also right about barrel length, which is why finer granulations work better for smaller barrel lengths.
I have a military heritage fusil de chasse I don’t use
Yeah you didn't lose much of the barrel
200 grains, don't ram the bullet and lay the musquet horizontal...
You fire Proof that barrel!
Here's a unpopular ideea: If you still have that barrel and lock working , try using a duplex load with a slow burning smokeless powder. Something slow burning , suitable for a .308 and a black powder. The point is to have around 8-10 grs of BP on the bottom of the barrel for ignition than add a starting load of 20 grs smokeless with a patched ball. Work your way up from there. If you manage to get to around 35 grs without any issues, add some corn meal to act as a buffer between the powder and ball. Curious to see if it can hold a pressure of 40-44 grs without bulging. It should absorb some of that pressure spike. There was this guy on youtube using pistol powder in an Pietta Remington revolver. Used around 6 grs and cornmeal for filler. I know the whole story with smokeless and muzzleloaders, but nobody is saying to overload that barrel into a pipebomb.
I can tell you that my golf ball mortar charges START at 200 grains of powder, so it just amazes me that this gun held up that well with five times what I put in a mortar that weighs 10 pounds. I think this video proves once and for all that the Indian made guns are exactly what they are, a really good deal for the money you're paying for them.
you are 100% correct
That was awesome! Do they all come from the same place? Military Heritage/Veteran Arms and other places all seem like they sell the same models just with slightly different pricing and I have no idea what the differences are if any.
I'm pretty sure they all come from the same place. I do notice though that different companies do sometimes have different models. For instance, veteran arms has a Spanish m57 that military heritage does not
@@Real11BangBang Thanks! Hope to see you review some different models. At least one of these companies should sponsor you after this video, I am sure you sent many people sitting on the fence straight over to buy one of their own.
@homerj109 Veteran arms drills the touch holes and tunes the locks, as well as doing some finish work. It's worth the extra cost if you're not up to doing it yourself.
So the muskets look like a lot of fun...something new to play with. Just been too many irons in the fire lately. That said, the MH SxS 20 gauge flinter looks like it would be all kinds of fun at the trap range! Do you (or viewers) have any experience with this? Many thanks.
I have a SxS percussion cap shotgun, and it's by far the most fun thing I own to shoot.
I promise you that if you get that shotgun you won't regret it, black powder shotguns are endless fun, and the ability to make custom loads gives you an advantage when hunting.
@@FYMFTP Thanks
Waiting for the Peterswollow trolls
lol there here
1:06 Any possibility you could make a tutorial video or would that upset YT?
We have one called making faster black powder
@@garrettfromsmokeinthewoods Does it burn faster?
than goex yes
@@Real11BangBang ok
I like the sound of you guys running away.
I am curious to see what happened here good morning and happy New Year to all
Happy new year!
I have an idea for a warcrime video using this musket...
lol so do we
Bad cookie
@@Real11BangBang why bad cookie
What Charlottesville rifle are you going to get?
As far as the next French musket goes that I want to get from military heritage, I need to get a 1728 musket. It's one that's been on my list for a long time
Basically you are creating 'proof loads' which is valuable info. especially like you adding more than one projectile. It would be extremely boring (for a vid) but helpful if you say did a 400 grain charge over and over and over LOL 20 or more times to check for a failure... that may be why some have problems with their guns... In fairness the Walkers that failed did not fail first shot.... sooo... I actually am of two minds on testing.
Lol! Awesome vid
Glad you enjoyed it
So is 500 grains of 4f a good working load then? Wonder what the chrono says?
Should just load it with smokeless
Sounds like an idea for a future video. Once I have another musket I'm willing to blow up lol. The main purpose of this video was to prove that with black powder it's almost impossible to blow one of these guns up unless you're just being stupid with it
@@Real11BangBang get one, then see if your FL will ignite smokeless in the pan
No chronograph?
We were too afraid of flying shrapnel taking it out.
@@Real11BangBang fair enough 🤣
I feel like such a woos all
I ever use is a 410 shell full of powder I think it’s about 68 grns
How exactly do you order from military heritage? I’ve tried to ask them some questions but I never get a response
That's odd usually Robert answers every time I have called him. Anyhow, if you click on the item you're wanting to order and you scroll down, you will see a blue button that says order. Now copy your item number beforehand and then follow the prompts
@@Real11BangBang Thanks. Is there a specific number to call Robert? I feel like I’m missing it
Hello bang bang I have a question as a poor working man you can’t afford a 2k plus built smooth bore I will be getting a India made gun how hard it it to drill a MH out what should I look for before I will and you you prefer the fusil d chasse or the NW trade gun more? And what are the major differences between to two other than the snake in the side and I think the NW trade doesn’t have the trigger guard in the wood just screwed in is that true? And help well be greatly appreciated!!
hello. If you go back and watch our overall discussion video on military heritage arms ruclips.net/video/taQTktYbEAA/видео.htmlsi=8KVuzxGiCmtRPLM6
We show drilling the touch hole. As for the Northwest VS the fusi, we have videos on both of them and it really is personal preference. Or what time. you prefer to reenact? Whereas the fusi is typically earlier say 1700 to 1770. The Northwest trade gun typically goes from 1770 to the late 1800s. Bear in mind that the wood is slightly thicker On these two particular india made guns than the originals, whereas generally india made guns that are copies of military weapons are a little closer It's not bad at all it's just not 100 percent correct. As for the differences, it's really just that the trigger guard is bigger on the Northwest gun and the stock is shaped different with a straight stock on the Northwest gun, it also has the serpant side plate. the fusil has what's called a cow's hoof stalk meaningit slopes down quite a bit at the rear. The only thing we have noticed is that the fusil will sometimes kick your chin a little harder on account of the sloped stock.
That was very interesting. Would using 2F powder have made a difference? Either way, the Indian Musket held up very well.
Are you going to do some work on what’s left and fashion it into a pistol?
ruclips.net/user/shortslckchId2SWU?si=68qANlpeSrfKgjrp
I had always heard that you could not put enough BP into say a rifle and for sure a pistol to blow it up.... that the only way was to have an 'air gap' But... most people don't know that steel... much less modern steel was unheard of here until mid to late 1800's... Colt Walkers would blow up with 60-70 grains of BP... sometimes... not always and never very dramatically but the cyl would be ruined at least. Walkers were essentially wrought iron.... like railings around a balcony now. Cannons would burst early on but again...mostly if there was an air gap or a huge metallurgy flaw which of course, was common. It is surprising actually to me that more did not burst. With modern steel? and the pressures BP produce? it seems unlikely. My buddy belongs to a bowling ball cannon group. the cannons (more like civil war mortars) are made from pipeline casings... Like really high strength alloy steel.. they are maybe a tenth or less thick than say a real cannon of the 1800's would be. These things take a charge that throws a bowling ball a mile or more. no problem I think..... I.... think... that modern clones of BP guns have WAY more strength than anything that is original. My guess is... and it is only a guess... that modern replicas of Walkers have been................way overloaded... with no ill results. BP only tho. I have seen vids of guys stuffing Walker like charges in 1860 army or 1858 Remington replicas with no harm. I have several inexpensive hardness testers. surface test only of course.. but no one surface hardens a barrel say. These things look like say a checkering file for wood but are graduated... like if this file scratches the metal it is less than 40 brinnel if not it is more etc.
The 1860 Army or 58 Remington cannot chamber any where near the amount of powder as a Walker. At most, the '60 Army or '58 Remington can chamber 40 grains of BP, where the Walker can chamber up to 50 or 60 grain charges. By volume, that's a huge difference. Regardless, that amount is not enough BP to "blow up" the gun, at least not a modern repro. I believe it may have been some dumbass loading smokeless powder in a BP revolver. That WILL blow up a gun with an excessive load.
I would say that 40 is kinda near 50 considering that there is a lot less meat between the cylinders. But yeah.. I only use 30 for my Army@@johnmullholand2044
I think the myth is starting to be abated. The downside is that military heritage is having a hard time keeping stock.😊
lol facts
I’d like to see this with pyrodex.
Pyrodex 🤢
Powder monkey Noah
lol
4 f powder is not good to shoot with to shoot with to start with.
that was the whole reason for useing it
I'd like to see this test with store bought powder. Since that's what most of us would use. And use a single ball/wad or patch. Just as an average shooter would load it. And use a chronograph. I'm very curious to see the velocity reached. It's time to scientifically end this horrible rumor about the safety of these imports.
Why in the world would you use 4Fg powder (FFFFg) for this? 2Fg is the normal load and anything over 100-gr. by volume is considered a lot.
4Fg has pressure spikes far higher and reached more quickly than 2Fg, which has much larger granules. Still, it wasn't until you put 1,000-gr. down the barrel and three .60 caliber balls that it bit the big one. Odds are with 2Fg, it might have even lived through that.
I would have been interested in seeing a buck and ball load, which was used during the Rev War. I know of no documentation of using three .60 caliber balls as a load. I do have an X-ray picture of a buck and ball load with buckshot loaded first, then the main lead ball and in front of that some small shot like large bird shot. Nonetheless, I'd say that strange test with 4Fg, which no one uses in smoothbore muskets, is a pretty convincing testimonial to the durability of that Military Heritage French Musket.
that was the reasoning behind useing 4f To put it to the maximum pressure spike possible anything under that really doesn't matter
The reason we used 4F was because we wanted to prove that it could take it so that we wouldn't have somebody coming along later. Complaining that we didn't push it to the limit. That was the whole point of this test was to push the gun to the limit and see where it would give out unironically even where we pushed it well. Yes it was a catastrophic failure. It wasn't a catastrophic failure that would have ended in someone being killed so I think we proved these. Indian made muskets are pretty stout considering we put a 3-pounder artillery charge down the barrel and it didn't come apart at the breech
@@Real11BangBang But you miss the point. NO ONE USES 2Fg black powder in a French or English musket or even a Black Powder Rifle and certainly not in a longrifle. It has no relevance to the actual use of the musket. Anyone who has ever used one will immediately think you don't know what you're talking about and never get to end of the video, where you blow it up. Knee jerk reaction is to close the video as soon as you say you are using 4Fg powder. 4Fg is commonly used for BP pistols and as a priming powder. Again, no one uses it in rifles or muskets. 3Fg is common for rifles and 2Fg for muskets. The only reason I watched this to the end was because a friend posted it on the muzzleloading forum. I'm glad I watched it, just wish you used more relevant materials.
You also used home-made black powder so that's also an unknown factor, unlike Swiss, Goex, Olde Eynsford by GOEX, Graf, etc. Your home-made BP may be just as good as Swiss (especially if you use willow charcoal), better than it, or worse than it. If you are going to use your home-made powder just explain, which powder it is comparable to and that you tested it against whatever powder you compare it to.
I still gave it a thumbs up. Hope you were able to replace that musket with the proceeds from your video.
I got the long brown Bess I love it I shot cotton balls on new years we short it tell
Itvwas so dirty the hole was clogged and I took a paper clip an un clogged it as shot it 10 more times tell
It clogged again my son loves it I need a pistol next
No thanks! Ive seen horrible pictures of the breech plugs.
Yeah well, it held though didn't it.
You do realize we quite literally put a 3-pounder artillery charge of lead and powder down the barrel of this gun that hasn't been cleaned since 2020 and has a rusted bore and the only injuries the shooter would have sustained was probably a broken or dislocated shoulder from the recoil Right? lol
@@jamesgarland4990 Kia motors hold together for about 80k. Doesn't mean it's quality. These things are banned from most shooting events for a reason.
@@BuckskinsBlackPowder
Because people keep spreading misinformation about them. And if you want to talk about mileage I've got a Charleville. I've ran 3000 rounds of 155+ grain powder charges through it. Most of those Swiss Guess what? I actually prefer to shoot it over my pedersoli
@Real11BangBang it's not misinformation. The breech plugs ad threads are very crude. Pull one out and take a look. There's more than enough proof of folks having to rebreech these junkers due to plugs being threaded 1/2" longer than the actual breech plug. Cracks in the threads, finger tight breech plugs, breech plugs that wiggle while installed into the barrel. Anyone shooting one of these, I hope you have good health insurance.
I guess I’m a snobby “elitetist.” I won’t shoot or own an Indian gun nor would I put 200 grains in a Colerain or Rice barrel on any of my custom guns. I’ve held the India guns, there aren’t 2 exactly the same, cheap wood and questionable quality control. I just prefer to stay away and spend a slight bit more on something that is in no way questionable. 🤷🏻♂️I guess the price is what attracts then leads to excuses to justify it. You pick on pedersoli for not being exactly accurate then buy a gun with wood that was never used and is crap. I’m not impressed
I think you'd be surprised at how well some of these guns are made. I for instance have a. "1766 Charleville" from militaryheritage that out of the box was a fine shooting musket. However, I did notice that it wasn't exactly historically accurate. The wood was extremely high quality with nice figure and I feed it a steady diet of 150 to 200 grain powder charges and shot it so much that I ended up wearing out the hammer I rebuilt the lock with rifle shop Hammer and springs and then took the wood which was once again very good quality and took it down to the correct dimensions for a 1763-66 model musket and I would say that's one big difference between it and a pedrozole. I can remove wood from an Indian made musket to get the correct shape. I can't add wood to a pedersoli to make it correct. And yes, I own a pedersoli and it's not as special to me as my Indian made 1763-66 which now looks absolutely gorgeous! And is 100% more historically correct than the pedrazole version aside from the wood type which if we're being honest, pedersoli is not correct either considering they are not using correct French walnut. And yes there is a difference
@@Real11BangBanglike I said, I’m not impressed. They do occasionally fail prof testing in Europe when they are imported. (they require proofing before they can be sold) You might be fine until you’re not. I’d much rather a quality gun that’s actually a gun and made/proofed to be safe. I’d rather have walnut or maple than teakwood. I’d rather have spare parts available that are interchangeable. I’d rather have a lock that isn’t questionable with tempering. You get what you pay for. There should be a HUGE disclaimer with those guns. People have no clue they aren’t proofed, no liability on the manufacturer. You are a test pilot with each one
@@skooter2767ksorry I can't hear you over all the musket fire of the 20 plus Indian made muskets that haven't blown up yet that I own 😂😂😂
@@Real11BangBang what a stupid snobby answer
Wow!