Christopher Hitchens on Scottish Independence, 2007
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- "The people involved don't have the guts to do it".
Christopher Hitchens responds after Tim Montgomerie and Geoffrey Wheatcroft at 4:15
Clip taken from: Christopher Hitchens - Discussing the future of British politics [2007]. • Video
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Would be really interesting to repeat this conversation as the UK left EU! Would love to hear what would Hitch have to say about it!
he said "that british fascist wants to leave EU, and UK would be like Serbia on sea"
@@enfantterrible6011 Link?
One of his more "establishment opinions" was regarding the European Union, which he saw as a rational and justified project, and lambasted the Eurosceptics at every turn, so I think that he "might" have moved on the issue of Scottish independence towards a view that might have coincided with his support of the European Union.
He loved the EU. Although he didn’t know a lot about it. He proved that in his debate with his brother, Peter.
@@deepzepp4176 He didn't know a lot about anything.
It's amazing looking back at Q&A films like this and now knowing how things have played out thus far .
So C.H was saying that Scotland wouldn't dare leave the UK for fear of it's not being able to remain within the E.U if it did so...Whereas now it looks like Scotland will have to leave the UK to remain within (or reapply to get in) the E.U.
Interesting to see how your theory will pan out with Brexit.
There's no chance that if Scotland became independent that they wouldn't get in to the EU. That's the real "false issue". As for Scottish independence being a "false issue", it has actually been one of the biggest issues in British politics for the past couple of years and has lead to a dramatic shift in Scottish politics; the Scottish National Party has just taken 56 out of Scotland's 59 seats. Compare this to the previous election when the SNP won only 6 seats and Scotland was still considered the heartland of the Labour party and you can see just what a huge issue Scottish independence has been. It's unlikely to go away, as an issue, until Scotland becomes independent which many believe will be as soon as 5-10 years from now. After all, 45% voted for independence, and that appears to be growing.
This is one of the few things I disagree with Hitchens on. However, to be fair, he commented on this a long time ago when nobody could have forseen the extraordinary developments which have occured since. Besides, as a left wing thinker, he may well have been very pro Scottish independence were he alive today.
whether or not you think it's daft is irrelevant with regards to my comment. It wasn't, and isn't a 'false issue'.
you could say that about any party, and about any issue. I disagree with you on this occasion, however, whatever your opinion on that is, you cannot deny that the issue of Scottish independence is a genuine issue. The support for independence is now well above 50%. Might even be near 60% if I remember correctly.
I just disagree. Sorry.
+jack jones What can I say? Obviously I disagree. The SNP gained recognition as a result of people craving change, and that change meant we had to leave the UK. I get into this conversation quite a bit, and I think it's quite strange the the SNP are branded "divisive" when almost every other political party, along with the majority of the media, were, and are, bias and immoral throughout this scenario. SNP aren't squeaky clean, but they're a whole lot better than most in my opinion.
+Ross MacKenzie The SNP might have got 56 out of the 59 seats but they still only got ca. 50% of the Scottish vote. The Green party and UKIP acquired more or less the same number of votes as the entire population of Scotland and they only got 2 seats in all. Its a fucking dysfunctional voting system that does not represent the actual vote.
Yeah, it's a dreadful voting system. Conservatives only got something like 37/38% but they're in power. It's completely out of proportion and often makes a party seem more/less popular than they are. As far as any party goes, however, 50% of the votes is good going. Especially when you look at the way in which safe Labour seats were turned over so radically, and when you consider the SNP got less than 20% of the vote the election before. Totally agree with your point, though. Incidentally, so does the SNP.
who was the gangster asking the first question
straight up bond villain
He does look like he's just walked off the set of a Martin Scorsese movie.
Lmao.
To be fair, Hitch wouldn't have predicted Brexit in a million years either.
Well folks, all those critics below who wrote about how wrong Hitchens was and how courageous the Scottish are, and who thought he would be a wee bit eggy faced today . . . we now have the answer. Scotland did not have the guts to vote for independence. Hitchens was right seven years ago, and you guys were wrong last week. Scrambled, fried, or poached?
"Hitchens was right seven years ago, and you guys were wrong last week"
Lol, beautiful.
The over 65 where the age group which let Scotland down, why because WM threatened their pensions. They must be proud
There's a large element of blunt truth in what he says but whether that will remain the case forevermore remains to be seen.
Lol they said from the future
Who is Hitchens referring to at 4:46? And who was the man in glasses who asked the question?. Please!
2 years on and you still don't know...
Why does 2007 look like 1993
Hitchens never saw Brexit coming.
I still don't understand the question about EU membership. Would Scotland have to re apply for membership and would this mean the public would actually get a choice this time weather to join the EU or not. If we leave the EU could we re introduce our fishing industry. Could we open Clyde ship yards to build a fishing fleet.
Could we have democracy instead of having the choice between dictators who represent the oligarchs and multinational company's who paid for their election campaign to the detriment of the people.
If only Christopher would’ve known how the tables have turned now. Would be interesting to hear his thoughts
Oh how I enjoyed the Referendum - After 300 years of whining the English finally hold the door open for the Scots and the whole world watches as they fail to walk through it. Hitchens was no oracle; he just knew human nature.
well they dont want to just be HANDED it what kind of victory would that be? They know it would disgrace The Bruce
@@donaldbaws1967 Are you suggesting it was immigrants that won it?
Yes. My Polish and Italian friends were told they would lose the right to stay in Scotland as we would be out the EU. The English folk on work with voted No . So ye a massive amount of non Scots voted no in the referendum.
@@hayzee4429 How are your Polish and Italian friends doing post brexit?
@@nuancecontraire I'd have thought poncing off of the English for years would have already made 'The Bruce' become a converted Anglo Saxon!
If this was 2007 why was the first question asked by a man dressed as a film director from a 1967?
But after Scotland had been duped out of the EU against its will it might be a very different story on the next referendum.
Hope so.... and then crack on with the Euro or whatever currency you choose as the pound is not an option! 🏴
Euro>pound
@@clansman89 Good luck..
@@clansman89 E1 = £0.84
I'll be the first to say it. Hitchens was right! Scotland as it turned out did not have the nerves nor the guts to actually go through with it...
Tye J Feck off, plenty voted no to preserve our union and don't want separation.
+xWHITExEAGLEx only the shitebags who believed what their imperial masters spewed at them
Scotlands Tonic It's people like you who are the shitebags that divided the nation with all the separationist rhetoric that is: one, for no reason, and two, would just harm Scotland and the rest of the UK, but Scotland worse.
Henc proving you know fuck all about it. Scotland is the home of 90 % of the UK's natural resources but hey we would struggle without the fuckin rip off merchant MP's in westminster to give us the lifeline lol. You are not even a shitebag coz you dont even get the vote but if you did you would vote wrong evidently lol
Scotlands Tonic Plenty of countries have huge reserves of raw natural resources (just look at Africa), it isn't where the big money is these days. And we don't exactly have 90%.. what are you talking about?
Damn - Hitchens was very prescient about this - it hasn't happened. The other guy - Geoffrey Wheatcroft - also gets it very right about the constitutional crisis.
Though not quite prophetic, it's interesting to see how on the money they got it.
and then came brexit. So not really
This issue is only warming up & dear departed Christopher, on this one you will be proved wrong. The ancient nation of Scotland will return to being a nation State & in time it will flourish.
@@KeithWilliamMacHendry Hopefully so!
So far so good, Chris - despite Andy Murray.
Its good to look back at real intellectuals like Christopher and realise what you didn't at the time, they are often wrong.
I often admired Christopher and when he spoke on a subject he did it with such certainty, that I generally believed him. It is something we must be aware of, that some people who are more intelligent that us, are more eloquent, better read on just about any subject, often hold no better grasp of worldy events than ourselves.
Or the takeaway is that absolute knowledge at a snapshot in time doesn't confer prescience. That is, knowing all the facts as they stand now or even the past course of history doesn't mean you can predict the future. Doesn't mean the analysis at the time was flawed or wrong-headed, though it may have been, it just means that things play out less logically than logical people would expect them to.
@@geebster. What you say is true but when Christopher got things wrong, he was never held accountable, unlike the politicians we all despise. I don't dislike Christopher or his opinions but political historical figures are treated harshly in comparison because they are held accountable.
I think it's important to note that this press conference took place in 2007 before the global economic collapse in 2008. Nothing was the same after that.
Just hold on, we're going home.
As far as I can tell he never stated that he was against it, he said it wouldn't happen and called it a "non-issue".
He wasn't asked about his opinion
Mate, was English/American, his 'opinion' on it would be insignificant.
@@odhrangallagher5738 Why? Does one only have to live in a place to have an opinion? Was no one outside of the USA allowed an opinion on Donald Trump for instance?
@@SSMMTTEE No, it's because this is a purely nationalist issue, and he can't put himself in the shoes of a Scottish person. Especially a Scottish person after Brexit and ten years of a Tory government, both of which Scotland didn't vote for.
@@SSMMTTEE Trump was the leader of the strongest military power and arguable the most influential country in foreign policy, especially on Europe and the middle East. We should all scutinize what he did.
The referendum was pretty close, so there was certainly some underestimation.
i suppose the general subtle or, like here, not so sublte contempt that the english have for scots, is a very valid justification for the scottish people to vote yes. its not a union of equals, it never was. why should you stay together with someone who ridicules and looks down on you at every possible occasion?
dont be afraid of being a small country, it works well for the netherlands, switzerland, austria, the baltic countries, even slovenia and there are tons of other very prosperous small countries around the globe. small is beautiful.
and after all, england will be a rather small country itself when scotland leaves. you dont need them.
If Scotland gets independence they will become a vassal within Europe, she will lose all her sovereignty and wil bel part of an undemocratic , socialist,highly regulated and high taxing process which is Europe. She would be better off staying in the Union.
He wouldn't be saying that now
Hitchens was very foreseeable on this. This pretty much the only issue he & his brother Peter. The conservative Christian. Seemed to publicly agree on :)
It's important that videos like this should be out there so we can all remember what a complete and utter douchebag Hitchens actually was.
The immediate invocation of the "ad hominem", the surest sign there is of the pseudo-intellectual. It never occurs to this kind that ad hominem is not automatically invalid. Presumably, they think Latin makes them sound smart.
Joe Francis
A staggeringly impotent and flailing comment:
1. It's a matter of pure fact that the person was engaging
2. Don't flatter yourself- I do not require your endorsement, approval, sanction, warrant or commission. I wouldn't benefit from it, even if it was offered.
3.Ad-hominem attack is broadly considered an intellectually-inferior way of debating.
4. The notion that makes me seem intelligent isn't using Latin phrases, but rather the fact I have something resembling an inquiring mind, something you apparently lack.
How so? His assessment seems to have been spot on.
He was neither wrong or right. This story will run and run for the next decade or so, but Brexit will be the gift that keeps on giving, as far as the pro-independence movement is concerned. Time is on our side: our time will come.
Hitchens just brilliant. Erudite, urbane and totally right (in this case). He reminds me of a British William F Buckley
I'm just trying to understand the reporter's glasses.
Well, he’s still correct on Quebec.
I don’t think so. The Americans want to have access to the water and hydro. Parizeau was the mayor of a small town with one employer. Westinghouse. New York State is heavily dependant on Quebec for power.
That guy is all style
Fairly honest answers from all three I felt. I've heard quite a few people completely outside the debate say the Scots lack the guts to do it. Interestingly each one of them felt Scotland would be a successful nation. It'll be tight. Hopefully Scots do have the guts.
Christopher Hitchens had a habit of being right about stuff, and this is no exception.
It just won't happen. I wish we could get on with discussing other things.
Who was the guy that asked the question? (Turtle neck)
Do you not know Hunter S. Thompson when you see him?
The panel had no idea what kind of shit was going to go down. The future is now.
Well said Christopher, of cause he was correct and the resounding no vote proves he was right.
+Funtastic Casino resounding? really? Indyref 2 is in the the post and this time we know all the dirty trix to look out for
+Scotlands Tonic Keep dreaming..they would vote NO again..Scots are not stupid.
It probably didn't help when any any British citizen, Commonwealth country and European Union country citizen who was resident in Scotland could vote, along with Crown personnel, inc members of the House of Lords and Her Majesty's armed forces abroad
Hitchens right as usual.
Not on this occasion. If remaining in or now reapplying to join the EU is such a game-changer then surely Independence for Scotland is now increasingly likely?
I’ve often wondered why the SNP have massive support at elections, but lost the referendum, but then I spoke to a Scottish guy I was working with who explained. When ordinary people vote in elections, they are attracted to the name “Scottish” in the SNP party name. However, put a very simple question to them regarding independence and the majority do not want it. Ie. Support for the SNP at elections does not reflect support for independence. That’s been proven once. Whether it would be proven again in the coming years is another matter, but right or wrong the Scottish people need to ask themselves why they really want independence from the UK, only to hand that independence to the EU. I’ve not once heard a logical answer.
Personally, I believe the time is coming for England to be given a voice and a choice in this debate.
The EU doesn’t control as much as you think it does, that’s why. It’s a trade organisation more than anything.
Scotland messed up!
Hitchens' has always been a vocal debater. At the moment the polls are showing the independence race to be neck and neck; with yes marginally now leading. This would have surprised Hitchens' quite a lot. Well, actually, it's surprised everyone including not only myself and the establishment - but the world! Good on you!
However, Hitchens' may be very, very wrong and don't let his insults, which obviously come from a sense of exceptionalism and entitlement, fuel your wick Scotland. You guys and gal's get the vote, nobody else. Everyone else doesn't count, they don't matter, they're not important.
So with confidence, make your own decision and chose your own destiny. You've listened to being told you're failures for generations. All the way through to this present moment in your history. So keep calm, have some tea and vote Yes along with me!
^_^
i disagree on your assertion his comments were motivated by entitlement or exceptionalism. We are almost 14 years from when he made those comments and they’ve remained true. He was right plain and simple. Just because Scotland may eventually go independent doesnt make his words u true. 2007 and 2020 may as well be two different worlds, and Hitchens was known for his dynamic opinion. It truly was a nonissue then and for years afterward
Despite everything the statement “they don’t have the nerve” still seems to ring true.
Its been a long protest vote then
Christ, everyone: by "the people involved," he did not mean the Scots as a whole.
4:17, this man is catching up some good sleep
Paul McCartney has been living in Scotland since 1966.Is he considered a Scotsman
+Michael Lantz nope
+Scotlands Tonic But you would not deny his right to vote on Scottish independance???
If it was the same rules as the Brexit vote he would be banned from voting. If itwas the same as those rules then only those born in Scotland should get the vote then we would be the same as westminster in regards to referendums. However, that would gaurantee a 'yes' victory in Scotland so thats why its not allowed
Hitchens has always been a supporter of self-determination. Had he lived to see the debate I am sure he would have filled in the gaps in his knowledge and maybe even grew to support the independence.
However, it can not be argued that his comments were perfectly in-line at the time. He based his conclusions on Quebec referendum. Having no other point of reference at the time, the obvious comparisons were drawn.
Lets not forget that a lot of economy-related facts about Scotland have only come out over the past few years. Hitchens can not be blamed for thinking that Scotland is "too wee and too poor" because at the time of his speaking that was the "truth" Westminster was feeding everyone.
RobbingHoodUK Hitchens was life time supporter of self determination. He came out in favor of two-state solution for Israel and Palestine, and for years has worn the flag of Kurdistan as a sign of solidarity with self-determined kurdish peoples.
As for UK becoming more right wing with the departure of Scotland.... I call Bullshit on that!
First of all, Scotland's vote hasn't counted in the outcome of elections for the last 30 years. Scots never vote conservative, labour only wins when England votes labour in.
Second of all, ALL political parties in Britain are right-wing now. They admitted it. Labour is no longer the lefties, they have moved to the right and share a cosy seat with Tories.
UK hasn't had a true left-wing party for at least 10 years now.
...Ireland? What the fuck does Ireland have to do with this? I'm sure you had Northern Ireland in mind. But let me take this moment to point out that Ireland (and the other 59 countries that left the British empire over the years) is pretty darn happy about not being in the Union. Recession hit them hard but they bounced back much quicker than UK did, and they continue to run lower deficit.
Actually, just about any country is running a lower deficit than the UK. UK's debt is absolutely mind blowing and I'm really hoping Scotland won't be around when that bomb finally goes off.
Don't you worry your head about Scotland. Scotland can end the currency union when it suits her. At this point Scotland is the one holding all the cards. Should UK decide to leave the EU Scotland will establish it's own currency. If Norway can do it so can Scotland, and Scotland seems to have way more natural resources (oil is not the only thing Scotland is rich with).
I know that Salmond would love nothing more than to establish separate free-floating Scottish currency and throw the Queen into the Northern Sea where she belongs. Something that I would whore-heartedly support. Alas, Scots are sentimental people, and Salmond knows he can't win sentimental voters if he gets rid of sentimental items in one blow. The change will have to come gradually.
And as for it not being a "true" independence... I think you have no idea what you're talking about. What exactly IS a true independence anyway? Sadly, but no country is an island onto itself, not even if it literally IS an island-nation. Every country depends on it's neighbours in one way or the other. They all influence each other's well being.
As for a "socialist paradise" - if Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland can have it, so can Scotland. And it's not just about economy, it's also about the mentality of the nation. That whole part of the world, weather do to harsh climate or due to cultural influence, has always always been more community-driven, and thus more left-leaning.
RobbingHoodUK oh, the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" argument again. didn't see that one coming! seems to be the only argument No camp has come up with since campaigning began.
and aren't you adorable. comparing scotland to venezuela! socialism is the least of venezuela's problems. when an intelligent man knows nothing about a country's history and it's situation he shuts up. but you are an idiot so you keep jabbering on.
go read up on venezuela and then come back to me, ok?
RobbingHoodUK Scotland is not and has never been a "drain" on the rest of UK. If you bothered to research Scotland's true economic standing you would see that Scotland has always paid more into UK's coffers than it got back. This was true before Barnett formula and it was certainly true after.
In fact, the only year when Scotland ended up with debt instead of surplus was 2012-2013 fiscal year. This was due to an unprecedented amount of investment into new oil wells and because UK on the whole was going through a "minor" recession. Funny enough though, Scotland still managed to rank up smaller debt than the rest of UK that year.
Scotland has always paid it's way. There is no "subsidy" from the rest of the UK. Scotland has higher taxes that pay for those free tuitions.
As for Venezuela, once again - you keep blabbering on about things you simply do not understand. in your twisted little world socialism somehow automatically translates into "evil". No system in the world is by default "evil", it is all about weather or not you manage it well.
Venezuela did not know how to manage it's resources and it had to fight off many interest groups in the process. Many different countries were intervening in it's politics so it was a giant mess. But to say that Norway's or Sweden's or Finland's or Denmark's branch of socialism is "evil" is to deny reality.
Once again - do you honestly think that Scotland can not have a Scandinavian system? What do you base it on?
Of those 4 only Norway is rich with oil so natural resources are obviously not essential. All you need is a well thought out system and Scandinavians have already paved that road for us.
RobbingHoodUK Come begging??? Not one of the other 59 countries that left British Empire over the years has ever asked to be taken back. NOT EVEN ONE!
Scotland will be fine and we are not arguing because you have no legitimate arguments anyway!
Muxxyy
Actually Jamaica kind of looks back on the days they were in the Empire as the good old days. But yeah, they're the only ones and it's highly unlikely we'll be thinking the same in 50 years
How time moves on. We may be forced to leave Europe and may have to re-apply. Fast Forward to Brexit and the shambles that is already unfolding with even the leaders of the UK (?) not sure how it is all going to end. Independence support now stands at 45% - 50% and that is awful close. And the crucial thing is that the support from over 70s for a No vote in 2014 stood at 70% plus but the vast majority of younger people were in favour so it's not a question just of arithmetic but of demographics.
The question - what about relations with the United States? No one approached that question. It was all EU and SNP crap. Not a word about the U.S.
He was wrong about the SNP, they did have the nerve to do it, but he was actually right about the country, as they in the end didn't have the guts.
@WheelieBinMonster I agree. But I'm British from England. The Scottish almost did it but enough people were too scared to do it
Hitchens called it right, though it wasn't a matter of guts or nerve.
So certain is Mr Hitchens, but with Brexit most of his argument falls flat.
Scotland asked to be in union after it went bankrupt following the Darien project, the country was on verge of total failure and debt.... I have no problem them having independence, but it has to be total...
he knows fuck all (first speaker)
All polls this year show the Scottish people want Independence
12/4/20 Opinium found that 54 per cent of people would vote Yes
25/5/20 YouGov found that 54 per cent of people would vote Yes
4/6/20 Opinium found that 54 per cent of people would vote Yes
21/6/20 Panelbase found that 54 per cent of people would vote Yes
12/8/20 YouGov found that 53 per cent of people would vote Yes
19/8/20 Savanta ComRes found that 54 per cent of people would vote Yes
19/8/20 Panelbase found that 55 per cent of people would vote Yes
02/9/20 Panelbase found that 63 per cent of people would vote Yes
7/9/20 Survation found that 53 per cent of people would vote Yes
20/9/20 HeraldScotland found that 72 per cent of people would vote Yes
22/9/20 IpsosMORI found that 60 per cent of people would vote Yes
26/9/20 Glasgow Herald found that 68 per cent of people would vote Yes
11/10/20 Survation found that 64 per cent of people would vote Yes
14/10/20 IpsosMORI found that 58 per cent of people would vote Yes
30/10/20 JL Partners found that 56 per cent of people would vote Yes
6/11/20 Survation found that 54 per cent of people would vote Yes
16/11/20 Panelbase found that 56 per cent of people would vote Yes
You may want to update this
Asked a question the falls asleep 😴
In all fairness, the practicality of seceding is as likely as Texas wishes to secede from the U.S. There is a school of thought that supports it but Hitchens is correct that the unintended consequences (especially economical) will be more devastating than Scottish or Texan seceders are willing to let on.
+Albert Zhao Well there is a massive difference you forgot to mention there.... Texas is not a Country ...Scotland is.... and take oil away from both and Texas is a dusty desert yet scotland is a lush, green and wet land of many resources
+Scotlands Tonic wait a second. texas was ruled by mexico until it won its independence in war. remember the alamo! then it was its own independent country. the republic of texas. sam houston was the president.
even when texas finally bid to join the united states. it was denied the first time.
What is with you guys who think that Scotland would be unable to look after itself. I am a Scot and live in Scotland, I think we would do very well looking after our own interests
Ah, the Scot, Sam Houston.
No we don't. The GERS figures are hypothetical and the UK debt, at £1.7 TRILLION is much worse. The economy and its potential will be what wins the Scots their independence in the future. The unionist case is weakening, especially with Brexit, by the day.
Scotland has made its choice
For now.
So how did that go then? What with the brexit con and Scotland voting to stay in the EU?
It's always easy to criticise with hindsight but Montgomery was wrong in his analysis that the vote for the SNP was a protest vote. It shows how much of political commentating is merely rationalising.
Interesting - that it looks like Scots Labour is, even now right up to the wire, going for independence as being (independence achieved) a platform where genuine Scottish Socialist Labour issues can be reestablished that haven't been possible in that mishmash of, it has to be said, artifice of a union. Make no mistake longtime-diluted Labour south of Hadrian's wall is pooping its pants at potential substantial loss of a greater Britain Labour vote. You'd think the Cons would welcome Scots independence seeing the loss of Labour's vote count with independence. How come Dave and Ed are presently tucked up so snugly under the same anti Scots independence duvet? Are they planning the next new coalition re 2015 general election? Perish the thought. It's all such a bad dream - unless, when we all wake up very soon, Scotland's historic independence is there that'll precipitate longed-for dramatic changes to remaining Britain.
What age is it when you look at a pink and green bow tie and think, 'That's the fashion-statement I want to make about myself to the world"?
iv always been proud to be a scot, but if we do not grasp this chance to escape the money grabbing tactics and lies from Westminster.... we will no longer be 'Scotland The Brave' but Scotland the fear and we will have to live with that stigma for the rest of our lives
And not have a Scottish currency or head of state? And surrender sovereignty to the EU? So much for 'independence'.
MrRedcarpet02 Well it turns out they'll continue to keep the pound. So their currency will be controlled and regulated by a foreign country in London. Their Head of State will continue to be the Queen... The only difference will be that the EU will be able to dictate what happens in Scotland as independence will smash any opportunity they have of opposing Europe.
watch Westminster scramble for a currency deal as no deal no share of National Debt.... SIMPLES
MrRedcarpet02 SNP don't want you to know but you can support UKIP and Yes
I've always been a great admirer of Christopher Hitchins but , in this case , he got a lot wrong . First he completely underestimated the confidence of the Scots within the EU . If they want to change just watch them bloody do it . Also there was an unpleasant English pomposity regarding the silliness of the question . The simple fact of the enormous difference in the two populations gives ample evidence that union with England was not a good thing for Scotland . Notwithstanding England's Daily Mail et al , the much better future for Scotland is to re-enter the EU which will be welcomed by the EU itself , contrary to Mr Hitchin's belief and thereby relieve England of its self conceived burden of largesse required to maintain its silly colony to the North .
They are the Scottish NATIONAL Party!! We are NOT nationalists and I'm sick of hearing it! We will get our independence..... And soon!!!
Funny reading this thread 2 years down the line with a failed INDY vote and Brexit
Staying united by 5% is nothing to celebrate. It indicates that when young people are older independence is inevitable.
Tiger Eye nothing is inevitable son
@@tflm9802 This is without doubt inevitable. It may not happen in the next few years but it will happen. All polls show support at higher than 50% at the moment. Most young people are very much in favour of it. As the older die out, support for independence will only grow.
@@tigereye1208 10% - can’t you do maths?
Scotland voted to stay by 55%.
Over 50% is a majority. 55% is 5% more than 50%. Not that difficult. Get yourself an abacus and re-read what I wrote.
4:50 that did age well ahaha
Indeed it did. Reapplying to the EU would be the second biggest obstacle Scotland would have to manage, behind detaching from the UK with as little damage as possible.
@@arleygomez465 Post-brexit, we're out of the EU anyway without independece...
@@arleygomez465 And, most EU member states are incredibly enthusiastic about Scotland rejoining. Spain has clarified that they wouldn't veto Scotland's entry and no member state has said they will.
@@odhrangallagher5738 that doesn't really come close to indicating how easy rejoining the EU would be for Scotland. An EU that would want a return to fiscal prudence after this pandemic ends would expect Scotland to be compliant with all its spending rules. That could mean years of austerity. And at the same time Scotland has a growing budgetary shortfall due to declining oil revenues and trade barriers with its biggest market due to its exit from the UK. It's an economic minefield that the SNP are not being honest about.
@@arleygomez465 But the alternative is to stay in the UK and have no chance whatsoever of joining the EU! I said that it didn't age well, because of Brexit. Because we're no longer in the EU and we're not independent.
Ask Poroshenko, he knows how to deal with separatists, may be he can send some tanks and artillery.
Much as I like Hitchens, there was a hint of English chauvinism about his remarks about the leaders of the SNP, exposing his public school background.
Proudly as a REAL Scot I voted yes along with the other patriots of Scotland and more will come with us and join us on the road to Independence!
No voters in 2014 are more than welcome to join us if you regret your decision and realised the begging, the threats, the lies, the scaremongering that came from westminster.
Come and join us and we patriots can make Scotland better.
I am a Scottish internationalist/democratic Socialist. Independence for Scotland instead of hopeless 'entitled' unwanted representation on our country.
@Henry Bishop who said I wanted that? That's what SCOTLAND wants... Being in the UK is what Scotland wants... That is WORSE than the EU
@Henry Bishop oh dear... You really aren't clued up on things are you
@Henry Bishop ha ha ha when did I ever once say I wanted to join the EU... See this is the problem with you clowns, no clue about nothing
@Henry Bishop 😂😂😂 Do I need to say how I vote on every post... Seems you have a lot to say but not a lot of substance to back anything you say up... That's the problem with you Westminster loyalists; too brainwashed to think for yourselves
Christopher Hitchens is the only one on the panel that actually sounds like a man. I think England could benefit without having to support Scotland and all the money it pours into it. Scotland would just become a small insignificant satellite of Europe with no influence.
The problem is not Scots nationalism its English natiomisimn
This didn't age well.
Wish we had Hitch during Brexit. Think he would have voted leave but who knows.
Highly doubt that.
Hitchens didn’t talk about the EU much but did say it’d had a positive impact in moving Europe away from the USSR and regimes because it required you to be a parliamentary democracy to join rather than a dictatorship. He was also massively ANTI-RACIST and did not view immigrants in the same way as many Brexit voters did. You must remember the man was predominantly a leftist. The Iraq War didn’t define his beliefs as right-wing.
He was spot on, they never had the bottle.
If only the Hitch could see how daft he looks now re the EU.
Haha I bet they wish they had the bottle now
id suggest he was correct....the people never had the guts(thankfully)and the consequences would have been great..alas christopher aint around to comment on such matters...his take on isis and syria would be dare say interesting...he was right on most issues...no ones 100% on everything and he could be a bit flippant.at times when answering questions..to his credit though he used to return to the point if he felt he hadnt done it enough justice...his arguments/put downs will be watched long into the future....wonder how he got on with pascals wager?
Well hitchens was way off the mark here
Chris Wilson How? They voted to remain. He was 100% correct. The current rise for independence in recent polling is due to how COVID 19 is being portrayed. BoJo = mishandling the situation whilst Cranky = handling the situation. When you look at it they’ve done pretty much the same thing. Then there’s the Brexit situation.. they want out of the UK so they can join the EU. Well that’s not going to happen is it. Scotland rUK negotiations would go on for years and the SNP won’t be able to negotiate joining the EU whilst it hasn’t settled its relations with rUK. And then how would an Indy Scotland afford EU membership? Do you think the EU is going to take on another member it will have to pay out for after it’s lost it’s 2nd or 3rd largest contributor (the U.K.) the EU may do so just out out spite against rUK but then they soon realise they bitten off more then they can chew. All of this when Scotland will have unionist from within thwarting any progress. It’s going to be bedlam.
Not necessarily defending Hitchens, but people need to be aware that he often used language without explaining it. He used terms like 'hysterical little girls' to refer to women, often without explaining that it was the view of others and not himself. In the end of course, you can't really be sure he wasn't totally at home in hegemony.
FreekinEkin2, I would have to disagree. There was no ambiguity when Christopher Hitchens spoke. He was 100% right on it here, 7 years ago.
007hor You seem to have totally misunderstood. I wasn't talking about Scottish Independence, I was simply talking rhetoric.
FreekinEkin2 You're dead right, of course. The man's favorite rhetorical device was irony, and irony flies right over the heads of a lot of people. And you can see why he liked it: it's a handy device for filtering out over-serious and joyless people who really aren't worth talking to in the first place. As for hegemony, I can't ventriloquize a dead man, but I can say that, given the decidedly unstable alternatives, hegemony is not the most unattractive position in the world. Bombs in the garden at 3:00 AM are OK, but I prefer them to be rather far away from where I am, ya know.
Edward Ashton His attitudes towards women, homosexuals and other disadvantaged groups are as nebulous now he's dead as they were when he was alive. He threw out too many contradictions and seemed to want to have his cake as a progressive, and eat it too by claiming his privilege.
If anyone was certain that he was a hero of the disadvantaged classes, Hitchens' comments about Yorkshiremen would reset them to not understanding his views at all.
FreekinEkin2 I'm not sure what you believe his views on women, homosexuals, etc., to have been, but it sounds like you thought he was a bigot of some kind. I would strongly disagree. It would be anachronistic to expect a person born in the '40s to a British naval officer to have 21st century progressive-style views. It's just a silly standard to hold someone to, and I wager that a majority of people his age would have failed your test. That said, I don't think he was any kind of bigot. I know the sort of offhand remarks he made that so bother you, but he always spoke glowingly of women and of the women's movement in the US, and he never made a remark that would lead me to think he was prejudiced against gays either. In fact, I recall him saying multiple times (once in defense of Stephen Fry, for one) that "homosexuality is not just a form of sex, it's a form of love," and that homosexuals should be allowed to marry.
I don't dispute, however, that he "had it both ways," by being very rich but also being a liberal. He didn't dispute it either, and the title of his memoir is a direct acknowledgement of it. But again, he did go and write from various places on behalf of oppressed groups, such as his advocacy on behalf of the Kurds, the Bosnians, and many others. Your argument just doesn't hold any water, I'm afraid.
I'm all for Scottish independence. In fact, we should help them do it. Why not set some nice TNT in Hadrian's wall and let Scotland float off into the Arctic Sea? That really would be remodelling, Scandinavian-style. Or better yet, why not build a giant catapult out of the Shetland isles and fire Scotland out into space and into the sun? TRUE independence from the crappy people of Earth.
Jokes aside, I do have to admire the Scottish tenacity and desire for self-determination. Hell, that's what most people want in this world, really: to decide their own fate. I suppose that's what made the US. Thing is, though, that England and Scotland aren't really seperate countries at all. We're slightly different people, sure, but we're really brothers that just fight sometimes. One of my best friends is Scottish (and lives in England), I have Scottish blood in me, we have a shared history - a great history, if I may add - and a shared culture. I'm not sure what Scotland would gain from seperating itself in the way proposed. A new type of money? More high-rise buildings? A space program?
Fact of the matter is, in this cause for self-determination we're forgetting that we are just two sides to the same self. Our goals are pretty much the same. Nationalism is a strong force, sure, but the United Kingdom, Great fucking Britain, is more than any single nation within it, including England. It's an idea. We're a different country with different people within it, and that's what makes us awesome.
Feel free to flame me if you want, it's all just a thought.
It has nothing to do with being different from England, it's about getting rid of Westminster rule. That's all it has ever been.
Hitchin's comments about the European union or ironic now that Scotland is being dragged out because we did not vote for freedom.
Sorry Hitch .I love you ,but youre very wrong
Scotland has self-determination, just like Yorkshire and Cornwall has - as part of a greater democratic whole. Not so if they join the EU, then they will be dictated to by unelected commissioners who have 90% of all of the EU's real power.
Scottish independence we can't afford it because Whisky makes our economy 125 pounds per second and the tourist industry billions a year not to mention oil fishing farming purest water in the world and leaders in science and invention . of course we need to be in the u.k makes sense really lol.
I used to have some respect for Hitchens......no longer. He claims in essence that Scotland could not possibly afford to become Independent....generally that is because Westminster is sucking Scotland dry of resources and income. Given very recent events I am sure Mr Hitchens may well be turning in his grave.
Well by the sounds of him he thinks that it will be held together by the then "certainty" of the european union, which we now know is fucked. Wonder what he'd think now.
I think he'd see it as less of a false issue.
He would have a different opinion indeed. It’s sad to see how it had such potential but the parlement messed up big time.
Yes Christopher!!!!! His appraisal of the gutless Jocks was yet another pearl of wisdom that is irrefutably true...
Dang, hitch is human after all.
And Hitchens got it wrong.
They are still in the Union
@@christopherhitchens163 for the moment, but there are few observers who believe the Union has any chance of survival. Comparing Quebec and Scotland is a nonsense, as was/is the suggestion that Scotland's prosperity relies somehow on the EU. Her prosperity is guaranteed when London's plundering ends. Worth noting, Hitchens kicked the bucket before Brexit.
@@CinntSaile Quebecs argument is dangerous and poor, it promotes and relies on nationalism. Scottish Independence is an argument from democracy.
@@christopherhitchens163 democratic deficit and economic apartheid.
@@CinntSaile sure
More proof that Hitchens got a lot wrong bless'im
Well, Hitchens was right, so far at least.
I say that as a Scot who voted No.
And would do the same tomorrow.
What a sorry nation this is. Endlessly bleating about an uninteresting constitutional question (how independent is Scotland if it retains the pound, or becomes a fully-fledged member state of the EU etc) while the precious and important public institutions (the Scottish NHS, 'Police Scotland' etc) go down the shitter, thanks to Scottish National Party mismanagement and egotism.
Miserable and pathetic.
+No One Why don't you head off to a non-pathetic country, then?
Might cheer you up.
+Steven G
Believe me, that is the dream. The dream shall never die.
No One You still seem irked.
*****
There's only one Englishman around here and it's clearly you.
Mate, you're trolling too hard.
You're a bad pony.
I'm not going to bet on you.
All these comments written before the No vote came through, all saying Hitchens was scum and should burn. Regardless of the Yes or No debate he saw what would happen.
More patronising English opinions on Scottish independence. 😴😴😴
In 2015, I happily and sincerely voted YES. Today? Absolutely not. Just in case no-one else noticed, the world is a very different place now and seceding from the union would be a catastrophe not just for the UK, but for the civilization of the Western enlightenment and the stability of the rule of law.
The SNP is a crypto-communist party which has been obsessed for too long with a once admiral goal but it is now unelectable ; the other snag is the EU - having been freed from England, the SNP wish to sell the country out to a foreign body, which is precisely the issue the damned IDIOTS claim to be utterly opposed to in the first place... and then there's Russia, but I think that that is enough for now.
For the love of the country, do not vote for the SNP on 23rd of May.
Oh yeah, in 2015? I agree, I think that is enough from you.
He was an extremely intelligent man but on this issue, like one or two I may add, he was completely wrong.
Soloman1001 I was referring to his opinions on the lack of courage and will of the Scottish people.
Soloman1001 You've not been paying attention to Scotalnd then.
Soloman1001 Scotland has changed. Even if it's a no, the entire country has galvanized in a way that hasn't been apparent in decades. The political system in the UK is dying and the class system is now in the peoples crosshairs. In a lot of ways, Independence has awakened an even greater debate about the future of the entire UK and the referendum itself has even initiated debates in English communities completely devoid of political opinion up until now. That, in itself, is a monumental victory.
Soloman1001 What are you on about you simple minded fool? What "hate" vote? Independence has got NOTHING to do with anybody else. It's about a country wanting the powers to govern itself and take responsibility for its own affairs.
Soloman1001 you just said that you want rid of the scots because it would be good for England then told us to stop hating the English.... you lot down south really do believe you are above your own standards don't you. The empire is dead, you are just another country now, not rulers. Try to live more humbly and stop the hypocrisy.
Comparing the Quebec situation to Scotland's was misguided - completely different scenario. And he has no idea about the Scottish vote. The reason No won is because of ideological voters. Scotland is infested with Loyalists; true blue, England-loyal servile idiots that actually hate Scots and Scotland's identity to the point that they refer to their own people as 'Scottish bastards'. Then there's Scotland's 450k strong English community. At least half of that voted in favour of the homeland retaining control. Then, the Scottish Tory, that lowest of breeds normally found in the Highlands and Borders followed by one demographic that Hitchens is right about - the elderly. They were so scared by the threats and lies coming from Westminster and its media, they buckled.
Still, the little country's sudden need for self-determination and democracy has triggered massive change in the UK, leading to the current situation. England is split in two and under an unelected PM, Scotland is now certainly leaving the union within 2 years and Ireland is looking at re-unification. All good. The 'kingdom', that nonsense from a time long gone, will consist of England and Wales. Good luck to them.
"Scotland is infested with Loyalists; true blue England-loyal servile idiots that actually hate Scots and Scotland identity to the point that they refer to their own people as 'Scottish bastards'"
Absolute nonsense and narrow-minded. Brexit is beginning to prove how difficult it is to extricate from the single market with favorable terms. Christopher was spot-on in his assertion that Scotland would find difficulty reapplying to join the EU.
John Smith
You're either not from Scotland, or just lying. The Loyalist vote is nothing but a hindrance to Scotland's progress. If they are so loyal to England, I suggest they move there and let the rest of us take Scotland forward, not backwards. As for Hitchens, he should stick to debating creationists and other religious extremists. As he supported the illegal Iraq invasion, I have little respect for his political delusions.
I am from Scotland, and just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me a liar. Please refrain from such infantile accusations and debate sensibly.
"he supported the illegal Iraq invasion, I have little respect for his political delusions"
Yes, Hitchens was wrong on Iraq (his biggest blunder - too many Jonny Walker Black Labels), but his observations here are irrefutable. The independence referendum did garner tribalism from Orange loyalists, but this was a small demographic of the vote. You could argue that most Roman Catholics with Irish ancestry in Scotland voted purely based on their hatred of the Queen and Empire. I would be quite rightly accused of being pathetic and small-minded to believe that. The west of Scotland seems to think they speak for the country as a whole.
The highest percentage of remain voters were influenced by economic uncertainty and the real prospect of high immigration to bolster the working population.
John Smith I didn't call you a liar, I implied it was a possibility. And the passive-aggressive insult of being pathetic and small-minded is unfair. I listed the Loyalist vote - which any Scot knows means a No vote - and proceeded to list other demographics that voted No. Pathetic, infantile, small-minded...perhaps you should review your use of insults in debates before passing judgement on others. I say this to you in the most friendly manner, as you're far more balanced and articulate than most of the rabid Unionists I've spoke with.
+Tokiofritz I am in no way a "rabid Unionist". Dogmatic patriotism does nothing for me either. I'm proud of Scotland's historical achievements, but I'm not ignorant of the blood on our hands through imperialism. The act of Union wasn't so much about being conquered by a tyrannical power (England), but sharing in colonial wealth. I feel it's disingenuous to see ourselves as a morally superior, subjugated race. We all profited from the imperial bounty.
I don't go in for - as one of the Nats at work said - "I'd rather be poor and free than rich and enslaved". Do we think we're Palestine?
The time to go it alone was the mid-70s. Hindsight, and all that.
🇬🇧NO🇬🇧
Craig Wilson orange bastard
If only the late, great Christopher Hitchens had stopped smoking and drinking then, he'd be alive today...Yes; smoking and drinking give rise to cancer...there is a connection; don't be stupid, or be fooled, or be foolish - then again, its your life; you choose.
Firstly what the hell has that bloke got on his face? secondly I really hope they vote for independence i'm sick of hearing them whinging on and on about it. Scotland no longer needed or wanted Bye Bye.