Zack Snyder Says Batman Should Kill People: Is He Right
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- Опубликовано: 7 мар 2024
- The TJCS crew discuss Zack Snyder’s comments about Batman and his stance on the character’s violent nature.
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Putting Batman in a situation where he HAS to kill and deal with the moral dilemma, or putting him in a situation where killing would be the easy choice and he still finds a different way could be interesting.
However, Zack Snyder put his Batman in situations where he easily could’ve avoided killing people, and he straight up gunned them down anyway.
Yeah, I do think you could tell an interesting story where Batman kills someone. But Zack Snyder is absolutely NOT the guy that should be telling that story.
Right and he even called it his kobayashi maru as though it would be about exploring how Batman deals with the fact that he killed someone, but no he just gets over it or doesn’t think about it at all and then kills more people
When you learn more about Snyder’s philosophical beliefs you start to understand why he loves making DC heroes commit edgelord murders.
Apparently he’s a big Ayn Rand fan. He believes society is largely about Us vs Them. Snyder just doesn’t believe in humanizing one’s enemies.
He doesn’t value the life of people he believes are his opposition. He shoved this belief system into comic book characters well know for always trying to preserve life at all cost.
The rule of "not to kill" is from 1940s , what the hell is John saying? Dude. The research on this was awful.
Kris nailed it. That moral code is what keeps Batman a hero instead of an anti-hero like Punisher.
Also if Batfleck is a killer why is Jared Leto’s Joker still alive? I’d assume he’d be the first criminal he breaks the rule for.
Good point
Well remember when in civil war wanda kills all those people by accident???? And captain America has that conversation with her that in that line of work people will die & they have to find a way to live with that cause if not maybe next time no one gets saved. Cap clearly is okay with killing if it means saving people and no one would dare to question captain americas moral integrity.
@@christophermartinez2608He’s not fighting street level criminals and he’s also a soldier from WW2 who fought literal n**i’s so I’d be surprised if he didn’t think that way.
@@LostUtopiaFilms my point being no one questions his moral integrity when it comes to killing so idk why people would question batman integrity when it comes to killing. They both have the exact same reasons for killing so it makes no sense.
@@christophermartinez2608Right but Captain America wasn’t built out of the trauma of his parents being murdered so that’s not a key part of his character.
Spider-Man would be more comparable but similar to Captain America his world and enemies are so different than Batman’s it’s hard to hold them to the same expectations imo.
"I don't have to kill you... But I don't have to save you." - Batman
(Then leave Ra's on the train to die)
Exactly this. While a great line, it's such a cop out to Bruce's code lol.
He never read The Dark Knight Returns he just saw the pictures lol. “In the Dark Knight Returns he kills all the time.”
Zack Snyder has a really unhealthy obsession with the Dark Knight Returns and Frank Miller in general.
Facts. In TDKR Batman says guns are the weapons of cowards.
The most compelling part of The Dark Knight is Joker trying to get Batman to break his “no killing rule.” Because you understand why Batman doesn’t wanna cross that line and he can’t expose his secret identity either. But, at the same time Joker needs to be stopped and the longer Batman waits, the more chaos Joker reaps.
It makes Batman a very compelling character because he’s very violent, yet doesn’t let himself go over the tipping point. He still shows some semblance of mercy, by not killing. And a lot of us admire and root for Batman because of his moral code because he sticks to it no matter what and there’s some nobility to it, even if it’s flawed. As a hero, he refuses to stoop down to the bad guy’s level by killing. It’s in part what makes a superhero, a hero. It’s what makes Spider-Man such a great hero, because he always holds back. Same with Daredevil, he’s a violent hero, but he refuses to kill.
Of course, not all heroes have to be the same. Some do kill in self-defense or (like Punisher) are more anti-heroes who are willing to kill left and right. And that’s what makes those characters tick and stand apart.
John it’s okay, you don’t have to pretend you read that Batman comic from the 70s. You googled “batman no kill rule comic”
Doubt John ever read a single Batman comic. Or DC comic at all, really.
@@nielsfrederiksen6636 Which is totally fine, it’s perfectly cool to be a fan of comic book movies and shows without reading comics, I won’t pretend to have read the comic of every movie and show I watch. And fair play and I’ll admit I’m wrong if said comic actually IS an old favorite of John’s. I just thought it came off a bit disingenuous considering how often over the years I’ve come across John’s stuff and I’ve never really gotten the notion that he was a comic reader.
@@zacklachance17 Absolutely. The issue arises when he claims to speak on the topic as some kind of authority or expert. Like when he mentions the golden age comics, but always seems to "forget" that those happened in a different continuity entirely, far removed from the modern character. Or like when Zack mentions Batman killing in TDKR. Batman never killed anyone in TDKR, and it just shows that you didn't actually understand the material you just read.
Are you all blinds because batman has definitely killed in comics from the beginning, and John has literally proves
@@johnnyweiner746 That is not the argument. I can find comics too where Batman gets a zebra costume or pees himself.
The argument is that MAINLINE Batman, not elseworlds, hasn't killed people intentionally since the golden age. Mainline Batman is Batman from the BATMAN and Detective Comics line.
Nolan did it the best. Stayed true to the origin of Batman’s code.
He let Ras to die by not saving him and have Bane permission to die. Just wanna to let you know.
I don't care if any DC character has to kill a villain in a specific story. But the story, and repercussions need to make that event worthwhile. Zack Snyder however, took a massive dump on the "no kill" rule. He had Batman killing thugs left and right, and yet you want me to believe this version of Batman would let a villain like The Joker live? It's total horse shit.
Yeah sure he kill the joker but then what he go out and kill another than another but then again the joker is such a big IP villain in the world of DC that it attracts people attention compared to a few mindless henchmen that nobody's cares. Becide it would be the same if batman doesn't.
Zack also said more people watched Rebel Moon than Barbie and compared himself to Frank Miller. The only problem is Barbie got an Oscar nomination and Frank Miller actually got talent.
(Unless we’re counting Frank Millers movie The Spirit 😬)
That comparison is crazy though lol
he didn't even say that
This why I believe only screenwriters and directors who are faithful to the comics to only make comicbook movies.
Guys. The problem isn’t that Batman kills anyone in BvS. The problem is that Batman was just friggen mercing guys and henchmen left and right when he clearly didn’t need to.
Yeah he was going pretty wild in the Batmobile chase. Drove through a car and it blew the hell up lol
@LostUtopiaFilms so was Batman Begins Batmobile chase where the cops cars are flipping over and only prevented from anyone died is when Alfred said its a miracle "no one's was killed." If he hadn't said it....
Batman’s core value is to never kill people. Zack Synder does not know Batman.
He doesn't know DC, not just Bats. The man was a disaster.
@j04370859 he definitely had no clue about Batmans core values. But we can accept that because it was a good movie. Just like we can accept TDK because it handled Batman killing in an interesting way, and showed us the consequences.
@j04370859 Winning cures everything, and Burton not only made a good movie, his film was one of the driving forces in changing how Batman was viewed in the mainstream.
Nolan understood the character more than Burton but took liberties in some important spots, but when you make arguably the greatest CBM ever in The Dark Knight, people can overlook things you got wrong and forcus on the incredible product.
That's what makes Snyder even worse. His movies weren't well received, and he took liberties with the characters. Gunn has quite a ways to go to make his World of DC profitable.
No fucking shit. The dude just want to make the movie he wants, not caring about what actually made the character so great.
That's why his DC version fail so hard. And for some reason people just forget about that
Zach doesn't read comics..he looks at the pictures and fantasizes about how to make it edgelordish.
I'm not the biggest fan of Zack Snyder but the problem with his DC films is NOT that deconstructs DC heroes, it's that fact that he does it poorly.
I’m starting think Snyder just isn’t smart or in any way nuanced in his thinking
He thinks he is smart, because he read Ayn Rand. That scene in BvS with Jessie Eisenberg talking about the picture of demons and Angels was a perfect example of a shallow mind believing he is deeply philosophical. That scene was horse dung.
No Batman should NOT KILL!
Thats like saying cops or soliders shouldn't kill...its unrealistic asf esp if u have people like the joker ,professor pyg...two face
@@Geralddd966 Yes.He should not kill no matter what. That's it.
@@lefthand5364 well youd rather joker blows up a children's hospital only to be sent to arkham ...so he can escape and then burn Down an orphanage ....all to protect Batman's stupid ideology ...Zack is 100% right
I agree with you Heather. At the same time, the absolutely no killing had to be a comic book thing because young readers were reading them. Batman is a samurai, sometimes it's unavoidable, he realistically would be more like Christian Belle's Batman, "I'm not going to kill you, but also not going to save you". If the joker was attacking you, and you were hurt because the police wouldn't use deadly force, you would say they weren't doing their job. It becomes bad writing after a while for Batman to not do away with the Joker in some form
But will if he has to
What i don’t get is people praise Burtons Batman and Donners Superman yet they killed in those movies. Sure Snyder did it more graphic but the killing is still there in the older movies.
Fr tho💀 I kept saying Ben Affleck is my favorite Batman of all time and people just slammed me because of it
Making Batman a killer is like making the Punisher a pacifist.
Read a comic batman kills he just makes it as a last resort
@@venom00112 Even when he has, a lot of those stories are generally not remembered or received well. All of Batman’s best stories revolve around Batman’s no-kill rule.
Well remember when in civil war wanda kills all those people by accident???? And captain America has that conversation with her that in that line of work people will die & they have to find a way to live with that cause if not maybe next time no one gets saved. Cap clearly is okay with killing if it means saving people and no one would dare to question captain americas moral integrity.
@ShelbyJamesYTShow I don't care about feelings I care about facts. He kills end of story. His best comics don't matter because that's subjective. We can never agree what is ✌️best✌️
People like the rule but that doesn't change the facts
@@venom00112 We all know he has killed before. No one is denying it. What I am saying is that the majority of people dislike the idea of Batman being a killer.
Batman was always in situations where he has to kill. The comic books was more violent then films.
I wouldn’t say “always”. It’s very rare he kills and when he does it’s usually elseworld or involving aliens.
The thing is, you SHOULD put Batman into tough situations where it seems like the only way out is to kill someone. The thing about Batman is that he’s smart enough to find a way to defy the odds and not kill people. Thats the interesting story.
Batman Arkham origins did a good job at that
this exactly.
If Batman kills he’s no better than the guy that killed his parents
He kills quite often in the comics
@@venom00112 he "really" doesn't
@@venom00112 no he doesn’t lol
@@venom00112 Give me one example of Batman killing a person, which isnt an elseworld story after the golden age. Just 1.
@@nielsfrederiksen6636 he killed Darkseid.
Thats the thing about Batman, if you write him, you give him an impossible task that’d test his code. Then you show off how he could leave the situation without breaking code.
It’s what pisses his villains off.
Yeah it amazes me that they brought up Jason Todd, but not the no win situation of under the red hood. I agree that he should be put in this situation, and he is supposed to find a way when there is no way. That's what makes him a hero. He's freaking Batman
Or at least you show what it does to him when he’s forced to kill, instead of just having him shrug it off and keep killing
Why are we listening to him anymore? Nothing against him, but his opinion is irrelevant now. He’s not a Batman comic book writer, he’s not directing a Batman anymore. So who cares
Maybe because 'Rebel Moon' wasn't such a hot topic of discussion, that we still stuck with talling about Zack's edge lord take on DC characters.
If you listened to the actual podcast, you would understand it was in the flow of the conversation and he’s talking about his love for the Dark Knight comic when he actually does kill someone when the mutant has a person in his arms and tells Batman I’ll killer and Batman replies “I believe you” and shoots the mutant.
The real question is why would you click on this video?
millers comics are garbage
It's not a "knock" on Zack Snyder himself, as much as it is that I'm not insterested in what he has to say. I just feel like it's mostly excuses or justifications for stuff that takes away from the enjoyment (or lack thereof) of the actual movies. If he ever makes a good movie again, I'll likely watch- I just don't want to hear him
@@TPG1
I was also a fan of Man of Steel. Super underrated. Sad to see most ppl want unnecessary comedy & light hearted films.
No live action medium has portrayed Batman as the elite marital artist, strategist, and intellect that he is. Until they do they, they will have to reply on him killing people.
Shows that they don't understand the character. He doesn't kill, because he doesn't have to. He's just better and always has a plan. No film has portrayed him in that way.
U realize every live action bat man has killed right
@@Geralddd966 did you read anything I wrote or did you just respond off of impulse?
I think the Batman: Under the Red Hood film is the best example as to why the "no kill rule" is a great obstacle for Batman.
My dyslexia made me read "Batman kills Zack Snyder" in the thumbnail, and John's shocked face next to it made me laugh out loud. Like if he was saying "Oh my gosh, who would've seen this coming?"
The whole "bUt iT haPPeNeD iN tHiS cOmIc fROm 1947" is such a hack argument. There´s also comics where Batman becomes a vampire or a pirate. Should that be on screen? Almost anything has happened in the comics. And that was in the golden age which was a different canon.
Snyder would have a point if his Batman killing people served the complex purpose he proposes here, rather than just using it because oooooooo cool action scene
Came here to say this. It would be one thing if there was no other alternative than to kill, or if we got some inner monologue of Batman feeling conflicted about killing.
But when you watch that Batmobile chase in BvS when he's trying to get the Kryptonite... that man has 0 regard for human life. He killed basically everyone there, seemingly without a second thought. That Batman kills indiscriminately.
To be fair he did do that when Batman saved Ma Kent. He killed that guy by shooting the flamethrower tank but that guy would’ve killed her.
The whole point of Batman is that he doesn’t cross that line.
Batman killing ruins the point of the character. Its like saying Spider-man should use his powers for fun and money. You completely missed the point and the message of the story.
Here's the thing, there are ways to explore Batman's No killing mindset and policy. In Batman Beyond, Batman picks up a gun and is going to shoot a criminal, but he is so disgusted with himself for doing this that he goes into retirement. In Red Hood, Batman outright states that him killing will open a can of worms that send him down a dark path that will end with him becoming no better than the Joker. Finally, even in the Dark Knight Returns, the comic Snyder continues to love and completely misunderstand, does not kill anyone (Joker killed himself) and even declares guns as weapons of cowards.
However, Zack Snyder is not interested in exploring the story where Batman has to deal with killing. He just wants Batman to kill because that looks "Cool". Just take the Superman killing Zod example. Once it happens, do we see how Superman deals with the events and consequences of killing? No, he hasn't. We just get him screaming, being pouty for a second, and roll credits. That's all Snyder wants, the imagery of superheroes being killers without any of the actual substance or nuance that comes with that story.
Here's the thing, if you seriously go down that route, they are no longer heroes, they are murderers. So, no. Batman should not ever kill anyone and if it ever does happen, then that will be the final time he ever wears the cowl. I honestly do not understand why people our heroes to be murderers, save those stories for the Boys where they belong.
Also referring to obscure comics that have long since been retconned into nonexistence does not count. You do know that not every comic is good and just because a comic does something, that doesn't mean it's a green light for everyone else to do it.
It’s interesting to me how upset people were about Cavill Supes killing Zod, when in Superman II, Reeve Supes strips Zod of his powers and then, when Zod was no longer dangerous, tosses him to his death with a smirk.
What’s the point of Batman then if you’re going to make him a killer ?😂
I don’t understand your question.
@@gabrielmcmillanyou're unhinged
@@curryis828 If I don’t understand the question, I might be ignorant, but unhinged?
Well, I’ll leave opinions of myself to others.
@@gabrielmcmillanit means, batman is someone who is deeply affected by seeing his parents gets shot to death in his childhood. It wouldn't make sense if he's enacting that same trauma into others by killing or using guns.
@@Sathya96_yt " It wouldn't make sense if he's enacting that same trauma into others by killing or using guns."
I’m not sure. Many other fictional characters are more than happy to use the weapons which took their loved ones away from them against those who wielded them. Batman seems to be the exception, not the rule.
Batman has killed several times in the comics. I can’t remember what issue it was, but he actually threw a goon down a flight of stairs, breaking his neck.
What comics are you reading?
@@inshal6420 I have a footlocker full of them. So a lot of different ones.
@@OutsideTheRopes that wasn’t a douchy rhetorical question btw but I know why it might have come across like that lol. I genuinely was just asking the name because they would be interesting reads.
@@inshal6420 It’s been a very long time since I’ve read that particular issue, so I can’t remember the title, but it’s old. I do remember him throwing the guy down the stairs and him landing on his head and breaking his neck.
Man, Michael Keaton's Batman blew up a guy
Batman shouldn’t always be offensive. I’m dying to see a stealthy ninja Batman in live action that fights like the DCAU version. Slick defense and counters like a mix of Bruce Lee and Floyd Mayweather. Oh yeah, AND NO KILLING!!
Zack Snyder made it clear as day that this Batman was past his “no kill rule” he literally tells Alfred that he’s watched good guys turned bad all the time in his 20 years at work. They show the dead Robin costume, Batman is tired of that code because it doesn’t do anything. Superman literally brings him back to that code. People hate Zack Snyder so much 🤣 just because he made a different kind of Batman.
Well said.🎯🎯
I wholeheartedly agree with Kriss Carr. Batman should only resort to killing in three specific situations: 1) by accident or in self-defense, 2) when he must save innocent lives with no alternative option (similar to his actions with Harvey Dent in Nolan's trilogy), and 3) during times of war (such as facing Bane, who has captured the city, or Darkseid, attempting to conquer Earth).
If Batman becomes a bloodthirsty killer in his city, wielding machine guns as depicted by Snyder, the police and Commissioner Gordon cannot overlook his actions, and they would be compelled to hunt him as a villain. Since he is a hero, not a villain, he must adhere to a moral code and avoid crossing certain lines. If he were to become the very evil he fights against, his purpose would lose meaning. Moreover, a proper role model for children is crucial, as they grow up with him just as we did.
It's essential to recognize that not every criminal is the same. For instance, if someone is stealing to feed his family, should Batman kill him? No, he should intervene to stop the crime and then, as Bruce Wayne, later help him by, for example, assisting in finding him an honest job. This is the essence of Batman's character."
Snyder s Batman was the most fearsome and brutal version of the character, deserved a solo movie directed by Snyder.
And deserved to be called “the punisher” too or something else entirely bc outside of the costume that isn’t Batman
Today In "Zack Snyder misunderstands the source material"
When did everyone forget that there can be more than one version of a character? There can be a Batman who doesn't kill and then there can be a Batman that kills when he has to. One could be rated PG-13 and the other could be rated R. I'm so sick of this stupid little tap dance that we have to keep playing with fictional characters. We should be able to shape them as needed. Art doesn't always have to have rules. Sometimes you need rules, sometimes you can bend them and others you must break sometimes. It's not rocket science.
This
This just shows that Zack Snyder never understood the DC characters and that’s why his films failed.
John actually likes Batman v Superman, so of course he agrees with Snyder 🙄... they both don't understand the character.
@@j04370859 Mainline Batman never killed. What If/Elseworlds comics are different. Or do you believe main line Batman is a vampire too?
@@j04370859 Different continuity
@@j04370859 Who cares? Superman couldn't fly at first, do you want a movie about a non-flying Superman? But I do agree, if you want a Batman that kills, just give him guns then. Makes no sense for him to go unarmed into battle if he kills people.
@@j04370859 Hey another 🤡 who doesn't understand the character. You're in good company with Campea and Snyder 😝
@@j04370859 If you're talking about Tim Burton, he also didn't get it... but they're basically Tim Burton movies anyway
I have no problem with Batman killing in hard situations. Batman killed in almost every his movie, but those were hard emotional moment. Climax.
But in BvS he casually oblitirates 10-20 mobs using his car and machine gun. That's where I have issue
I couldn't agree with you more. I honestly think Campea knows it because Zack was talking about no win scenarios in his examples, but his Batman was killing in no way scenarios. John didn't use Batman in that .He substituted Superman. It felt more like John trying to clean up what Zack said, and the interview was about why he didn't understand why people hated him. He gets why they hate the movie but not him personally. But it's human nature,if we love what was produced, we love that director. If we don't like what was produced, then we don't love the director. Not sure why Snyder pretends not to understand that because he doesn't have a problem with the people who not only love his DC take but love him.
Batman doesn’t kill. It’s a core part of his character and just because some comic book writers have taken some liberties doesn’t change that. If he is okay with killing, there’s no internal conflict. He should just bomb a building with the Joker in it and then he wouldn’t have to deal with that problem. “It’s too damn easy to kill” and he’s above the criminals he fights against. Zack didn’t make Batman kill cause of some insane moral quandary he did it because he finds it cool let’s not kid ourselves. Changing a fundamental aspect of a character not in an elseworlds tale but when you’re trying to establish a cinematic universe is beyond stupid. In fact you could argue that if Batman had a strict no kill code and had to deal with the weight that he has to kill Superman, the movie would have been significantly better.
So half the comic writers and and all the movie directors got it wrong, but you got it right? Batman has killed in every movie adaptation!
@@k13kkSnyder said he wanted to do because his Bosses Said there was a rule. There is not one scene where he shows that the character needed to kill, this Batman is kind of a coward because he kills low level criminals but let Joker partying in swing night clubs.
I completely disagree with his take on how Snyder handled characters like Superman and Batman in the DCU. On the subject of Batman if you can write Batman as a hero that can kill if the situation justifies it then you completely don’t understand the character of Batman. In situations where Batman is defending him self a writer can choose to not have Batman go all the way and kill the man in self defense. In the example that John referred to where Batman slams a man thru the floor and in the comics he has an inner monologue stating the thug was just badly hurt. In movies you can easily do the same just by not panning away from the thug but rather showing the thug coughing or aching while Batman walks away. If the thug is moving on screen and is not captured laying there still then in rules of cinema he didn’t die and his fate is left open. Another thought on having Batman killing a random thug if the situation warrants such action would literally break the whole concept of Batman killing no matter how bad things/ situation got. If Batman can kill in circumstances that seem justifiable then he would definitely kill bad guys like the Joker, two face, penguin etc…. Just imagine justifying killing a random red shirt thug but letting the Joker live. How would that make any sense! On the subject of Superman Snyder again shouldn’t have been given control of such iconic IP. Superman didn’t have to Kill Zod. Their could of been a way that Superman found a way to Banish Zod to the phantom zone again. The phantom zone existed in the movie and he could of figured out away to re use it in the film. That would’ve made more sense and could have made for an interesting ending knowing that Zod can potentially escape and be introduced in later movies. Superman was poorly handled by Snyder just like Batman. For Christ sake Superman killed a random thug in BvS when saving Louis. He slammed that man thru a wall and as per my previous comment we never saw that man again and with that his fate sealed. Superman splattered a normal thug thru a wall when he could have easily stopped him from shooting Louis in another way. Last point I want to make in the original Superman movie Metropolis is literally left in rubble but the last scene of that movie Louis is being invited by random office worker to go catch a basketball game. I’m sorry but if the city was that badly destroyed what game were they going to?!?!? Snyder has to stick to slow mo commercials where plot and character development aren’t on the table!
Thank you!!👌
I believe Snyder has a good point that if you dont put these characters in difficult situations but almost every time Batman refuses to kill and finds another way thats what makes him and a few other characters unique, they refuse to make the easy choice but the right one.
Michael Keaton’s Batman killed people
What do you mean? He threw a thug with dynamite down a chute. He clearly only suffered a concussion.
Standards change.
Nobody’s defending that either
Referencing the Killing Joke as an accurate depiction of Batman’s code is like referencing a What If comic with a zombie Ironman and then telling us Tony Stark canonically eats brains.
It’s not the mainstream.
They dont actually read the comics. None of these people do. Neither did Zack. Batman didnt kill anyone in TDKR, but he doesnt know that.
Here is the thing: Batman had his parents shot in front of him and has that absolute code. And to break it just for the cool factor (hey, lets put machine guns on the Batmobile) is moronic.
The Super in Superman is there because he is the guy that does the impossible in impossible situations. He finds a way. He shows us that we can be better. If he cant be better, he just does the regrettable thing and gets sad later, what’s the point - he becomes just another character.
Nah buddy. You’re always going on about how it’s important to keep certain key elements of characters - but here we are with an important, key character of this character being something you dislike. So of course you change your mind here.
So, if people want a 'batman' who kills SOOOO badly, that's what the authority is for. It's their version of certain superheroes that aren't afraid to kill and enact the 'justice' that the inner psycho in all of us wants. Midnighter is the answer for this question.
What's the point in stripping Batman of all fantastical and supernatural substance? Basically, since a real-world human CANNOT fight armed criminals every night without killing anyone, Batman should be limited to this fact because cynical men over 35 decided that it was better that way.
But where is the dream in that? Where is the imagination? Where is the superheroism? Batman is a character who is primarily supposed to appeal to young people. Few people become fans of the character as adults. If DC Comics has to adapt to these "edgy" or "nihilistic" adults by calling into question the very heart of what makes a superhero a superhero, it is just the death of DC Comics that will no longer be able to renew its fanbase.
I mean, these characters live in their world! If we question Batman's supernatural abilities to fight crime without ever killing anyone, that creates 2 problems. One for us readers (or audience) and one in-universe.
Problem for us: The very concept of Batman becomes absurd because everything about this character's logic and abilities is crazy and supernatural. The fact that he doesn't kill anyone shouldn't be THE POINT that surprises us the most.
Problem in-universe: Batman is not mandated by anyone to do what he does. So if the guy allows himself to fight criminals and kill some of them just because THIS SHIT CAN HAPPEN (or because he had no choice), what are Jim Gordon, Superman and the fucking United States of America waiting for to put him in prison?? What is Alfred waiting for to denounce Bruce and plead insanity for him? Unless he's an accomplice to murder without any problem? This is where these stories of “misplaced realism” lead. We can ask ourselves 100 different questions which end up stripping the myth of what makes it a myth.
HOW CAN BATMAN BE THE CEO OF A MULTINATIONAL COMPANY BY DAY AND A MASKED VIGILANTE AT NIGHT??? HE NEEDS TO SLEEP! DUH DUH DUH lmao I mean come on! Anyone who is no longer able to accept this kind of concept should be interested in something else. Maybe comic books that target a more mature audience. Or pottery.
How about when Batman killed the black dude who was busting his ass in Tim Burtons Batman? 🤣
The issue is that Zack Snyder said that he wants to see what happens after Batman has to kill. He says that but never explored the repercussions of doing it.
Batman: "once I stoop to that level, there's no going back, I'll be just like them".
People seem to have amnesia about the fact that Batman HAS killed in other movies or has let people die. He left Ras Al Ghul to die in Batman Begins, he pushed 2-Face off a ledge to save Gordon’s child in the Dark Knight, he killed Joker in 1989 Batman for killing his parents.
But Snyder didn't wrote scenes where Batman needs to kill. He even let Joker and Arley Queen going around doing their stuff but kill low level criminals.
He's using Batman killing as a scapegoat to dodge that he just made boring and cringey movies. "Oh it's just because I did a thing that fans don't think the character should do"... Nah bro, the fans would absolutely accept Batman killing if your movie wasn't boring to all hell. The fans accept deviations and new interpretations of these characters all the time, as long as they are emotionally satisfied by the movie. Batman kills in virtually all of the live-action iterations, they only take issue with it in BVS because they didn't like the movie. Does Batman kill in The Dark Knight or The Batman? I don't know and I don't care because I love those movies.
Zack Snyder is the type of person who will ruin the batman and Superman character just to prove that HE CAN, its just an Ego thing. Batman and Superman not killing is what makes the characters so compelling and interesting, If Batman can start killing then he's just another mass murdering vigilante thug. Zack Snyder should just accept that he did an absolutely shit job and move on.
Remember Batman Begins the line to Ra’s Al Ghul “I won’t kill you but I don’t have to save you”
The point of the Batman is fear… criminals in Gotham aren’t scared of Arkham. They should be scared of dying lol.
The batman that Zach Snyder interpreted is from the Dark knight returns, and in that comic he does kill, he did say that on the podcast that was his inspiration 🤷♂️
He literally doesnt
Batman never kills in that comic.
People also always conveniently forget he has killed in almost all the movies by accident or on purpose. Keaton Batman literally straps a bomb to a guy and kicks him down a well.
How many of Joker’s and Penguin’s goons did Batman kill in “Batman” and “Batman Returns”?
Michael Keaton do y'all remember his Batman kill the joker
The laugh box means The Joker lives forever.
True
Guys who think Batman should just b killin like he was in Batman v superman, don’t understand Batman. Guy was runnin guys over wid the Batmobile in that movie.
I honestly don’t understand what’s all this fuss about. What’s wrong with having a Batman who kills & one who doesn’t? What’s wrong with we as the people exploring both psyche of this complex character?
Didn't Christopher Reeve Superman throw a de-powered Zod down a chasm in the Fortress of Solitude. I was six when I saw it in theaters, and I distinctly remember everyone cheering in the theater.
There's a deleted scene that shows him, and the others, alive and being arrested.
Well that's kind of disappointing.
Burton & Nolan made Batman kill. Everyone is a hypocrite for criticizing Snyder while giving them a pass
Most people that complain about Batman have never read a book.
I love Batman's no kill rule but I also like when that rule is broken. It's always interesting to me to see characters crossing their own lines.
yeah, like Superman from Virtue into Villain
@@andjarmahesa8576 Thats issue Superman doesn't just become a villian when he kills. No kill rule not ironclad only in specific conditions. Problem is lack of balance I think Superman brain dead lawful boyscot which is far from who is.
Obsession with media and current comics like Injustice with making Superman evil. Readers and writers take wrong lessons from certain especially Deconstruction types.
Saw someone put it like this. Snyder complaining about this is a pretty roundabout way to state that you're unable to work within the confines of established canon and feel pressed to force very lazy changes to a universally recognized IP.
The moral code of not killing is the great separator between Batman and the rest of Gotham. He does everything he can to make sure the criminals and villains are brought to justice in a city where real justice is not found. That's one of the points of the character. That's not to say you can't explore Batman having to make that choice, but it doesn't mean you should throw your hands up and throw the code to the side because it's too "constraining" for you. Studio involvement or not, Snyder sounds like child here who's upset there are rules when playing in someone else's sandbox.
Well remember when in civil war wanda kills all those people by accident???? And captain America has that conversation with her that in that line of work people will die & they have to find a way to live with that cause if not maybe next time no one gets saved. Cap clearly is okay with killing if it means saving people and no one would dare to question captain americas moral integrity.
I have personally seen a man die from a punch on the street… there is no way that Batman could avoid killing people either accidentally or by proxy in any realistic interpretation of the character.
Sure but then it makes no sense for him to not kill the joker. You can’t pick and choose when he decides to kill
It doesn't matter to me whether Batman kills people or not. As long as there's enough story to explain his motivations, then I'm fine with it.
I guess the thing is if we could see Batfleck's solo movie we'd know why he kills bad guys. sad we didn't see that.
Batman is a fictional character which means every situation us made up.
I won't put Batman in a situation where he has ti eat a gallon of whale piss . Either.
Batman doesn't kill
So when the justce league (including batman) is killing thousands of parademons its ok. But because batman has been left with no option but to kill in certain situations involving human terrorists, thats where Batman has to draw the line 😂
🎯🎯
Why does everyone have to cry about this
Batman not killing the joker makes him just as responsible for the lives taken by the joker ,two face ,etc
Couldn't agree more 👐
Please keep snyder far away from these characters.
You guys acting like this only proves Snyder right. You treat these characters as if their real life “gods” and their comics and lore as some kind of religious teachings. And just like in religion, if anyone tries to change, bend, or interpret core teachings in their own way that doesn’t suit what’s been established already, it is called out as blasphemy. Basically, y’all are taking made up characters w/ made up rules way too seriously when ppl should be able to interpret these characters any way they want as long as the character doesn’t become completely unrecognizable. Which doesn’t happen if u just change someone lie Batman being open to killing.
@@Spider-ManHQOr, hear me out, we just like the characters and realize Snyder just makes bad unappealing versions of them.
Films like Tim Burton's Batman and The Dark Knight do plenty of changes from the source material and aren't perfect adaptations but they're still fun, good movies.
@@Spider-ManHQ Nolan already did what Snyder is talking about but actually executed it in a more believable and respectable way at least.
@@Spider-ManHQmost movie watching audiences have never read a comic book before. The only exposure we got was from other movies and maybe animated ones. So if you want to make a successful movie, cater to that audience
@@maleficking6556Films are subjective. There’s plenty of ppl that like them. If u want to criticize the MOVIES he’s made as a whole, that’s fair. What isn’t fair is criticizing Snyder’s IDEA for a character cuz it’s just an interpretation. Everyone has a right to their own interpretation.
Batman has killed and can kill. Use the Batman that actually kill. He only talks and takes inspiration from Frank Miller Batman but Frank Miller Batman didn’t kill 😂😂 take inspiration/ use from one that does kill
Zack Snyder is too focused on a few specific comics. Specifically Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns and Miracleman. E.g. the edgy stuff from the 80s. Great comics! But c; mon... they're takes on a kids comic book.
He's a character who's meant to appeal to kids. So no... probably shouldn't kill people.
He doesn’t even kill in The Dark Knight Returns lol
Superheros for long Tim cross that"for kids"category , batman has addeptions where he is for kids but there characters and theirs stories are Way pass being for kids maybe it was relevant to the poried of time but even if superhero are Loved by kids , they are Way to far for being for them only
@@inshal6420 He does, is bad representation of no kill rule. There's a reason elseworld story and it been a deconstruction, explore mature and serious themes with a adult tone. But readers and writers took the wrong lessons from that story and other similar stories such as The Killing Joke. Damage to Batman character is irreversible.
First of all I loved BvS and Snyder's vision but I agree with Kris Carr on this issue. Batman SHOULD NOT kill indiscriminately. She's right that Batman does not kill his foes because it is the fine line that separates him from the criminals he's taking down. The fact that his parents were murdered, is also the reason he doesn't kill because it's at the very core of his foundation. All that said.. Zack Snyder's Batman, IS my Batman of choice. He is brutal and bad ass in all the right ways. I even like Batfleck's version of Bruce Wayne.. he's just so cool and rugged at the same time. But, lets not deny that we all saw Batman tether a car full of people and slam it on to another car full of people, or mini gun an SUV, or kick a live grenade at a "red shirt" and say he didn't kill all those motherf**kers. That was definitely a PTSD, no holds bared, partially deranged Batman.
The Batman that John Campea is describing.. one who constantly has to pull himself back.. that one is more accurately represented by Matt Reeves' Batman. Specifically the part, at the end, where he takes the adrenaline boost and almost beats the Riddler terrorist to death, only to be stopped by commissioner Gordon. I also agree that a version of Batman that does kill is an interesting idea to explore like Thomas Wayne as Batman in Flashpoint.
Ultimately I enjoy and see pros and cons to both schools of thought. Personally, though I prefer Snyder's version due to taste.. I think Carr is right, that the very notion of corruptible power (unilateral capital punishment included) is against Batman's very nature.
The only person that kills in the bat man universe is Joel Schumacher He killed the Batman franchise
people must remember that bruce witnessing the death of his parents is the reason on why he has the code of not to kill. that is the epiphany on why batman existed in the first place; revenge without killing. and that's why the arkham asylum existed in the first place
welll if that's true. it didnt work for the batman hero trademark. a lot of batman canonical and great stories is from him abiding by the no kill code. this made batman, batman for a lot of people if you know what i mean. @@karimdavis7065
I am open to the idea of other heroes killing. Not Batman though. Part of the appeal of Batman is that he constantly holds himself up to idealistic standards. He has an obsessive need to prove that he can be more than just a man and doesn’t have to ever cross that line. For Bruce, it’s more than just being a costumed hero. He has to be a symbol that is larger than one man.
A good story where we deal with Bruce facing the fallibility of his humanity is Batman: Venom where he fails to save a little girl and berates himself for not being good enough. He then turns to Venom in order to give him that edge to be better than just a man. He eventually learns that Venom corrupts the mind and that he was also using it as a crutch to deal with his own fears of failure.
A great line, from a terrible movie, is Alfred in Batman and Robin where he says that “what is Batman if not for an attempt to master death?” This to me strikes at the core of Batman. The ability for a scared child, who watched his parents die right in front of him, taking that pain and transforming it into a perfected weapon to master death. I’m not opposed, in theory, to a Batman where he uses killing as a last resort, but I do think the power of Batman comes from him going beyond normal means to ensure that he doesn’t cross his line. Makes him more interesting and provides more dimension.
The more and more I watch these videos the more I realize John is not too bright or quick as he thinks. He babbled on an on for five minutes, and Kris explains it in one. Does John even know who Zur-En-Arrh is because it answers his dilemma aka not too bright for someone who talks mainly about nerdy pop culture movies.
Killer Batman is THE WHOLE REASON the Snyderverse fans want the DCEU to continue. The reason I know? Because that's the only thing that sets that universe apart from any other. There's nothing else this universe has to offer that they couldn't simply get from a new DCU. It's pathetic, and I'm getting sick of it.
No because his world was shattered by a murder and he wants to prevent it from ever happening again. That is his goal as Batman, to protect life at all costs not beat up criminals. But we forget that because he’s grumpy and dark so we think he should… NO. There are literally character arcs and comic storylines: Under the Red Hood, The Killing Joke, etc. where they literally tackle this ideology Batman has yet we’re going to pretend it’s not a core essential part of his character that he doesn’t kill?
The fact that John knows Mr. Sunday Movies is incredible.
The no-kill rule isn't absolute and clearly Tim Burton "broke" this room too. The issue is that Snyder's default setting for his heroes doesn't allow them to be altruistic. By only embracing the rage, self-doubt, and violence of his heroes he deprives the audience of the larger better portion of the heroes. They aren't aspirational.
Batman had to kill Harvey in TDK. He didn't have a choice. Even in the greatest Batman movie ever made he was forced to kill.
Greatest movie ever made with Batman in it, not greatest Batman movie ever made. The Dark Knight is a fantastic film but a flawed Batman product.
@@maleficking6556 people don't seem to understand there's a difference between a good film and a good character film. Spider-Man Far From Home is fundamentally a good movie but just about the worst Spider-Man movie you can make
I actually think the Dark Knight not feeling like a Batman movie was intentional. Nolan wanted to make a crime movie that just happens to feature comic book characters. There’s an argument to be made that to make the best comic book movies, the most important thing in them should be the story and the writing while the comicbooky nature should be the least important thing.
Batman doesn’t kill
Michael Keaton's Batman has a very high kill count, and he seemingly didn't care.
@@likeluptid purple gloved batman did too
But characters evolved until they land on a core basic characteristics. Superman didn’t fly
Wonder Woman was a superhero secretary
Yeah bad take, anyone who knows batman knows he has a moral code. You can break the rule but do not make that the rule. Meaning it's okay to go for it if the story calls for it, but if it fails it will be disliked by all batman fans, it's a delicate balance. You can introduce a million other characters if you want a super hero to kill, red hood would be great and maybe in a film they could go toe to toe.
The point was this was a Batman after the war on crime. He lost his son and lost himself. Superman’s death brings back the hope in him and he becomes that Batman we all know. It may be a little difficult to understand if you’re only watching cookie cutter marvel films
@@mikeymay15 I get it just not particularly a fan of that reasoning 🤷🏾♂️ plus the choice to tell us these things and not show any of it was a costly one. That made for a bad film and resulted in the cancellation of sequel films that may have given them the opportunity to tell a better story, but you should set out to do this with the first film.
@@IzzyDGamer this is a good point but they did show this, especially in the extended cut which was the version that was supposed to be released in theaters
Snyder says alot of things
Batman doesn’t kill men. He just overfeeds them.
Always amused by the argument that it’s unrealistic if a crime fighting billionaire dressed up as a bat doesn’t kill folks.
Or the “Batman is interesting because he’s supposed to be more realistic” But then people choose to just believe these unrealistic scenarios where Batman’s way of beating up a criminal would realistically kill them but the writers are just like “No, he’s not dead, he’s just really hurt”
It's not Batman doesn't kill, it's Batman SHOULDN'T kill. Bruce explains beautifully in Batman Begins why he doesn't. It's the one thing that separates him from the criminals.
"It's the one thing that separates him from the criminals." Batman robs banks, mugs people and does other criminal activity?
@@spaceguy564 We're talking about murder...
Batman should never kill.
Yes, theoretically, Batman could kill ALL of his enemies, and it would make a whole lot of sense if he did.
He could go around putting bullets through the skulls of each and every scumbag he meets, and that would likely even radically decrease crime in Gotham.
But then one day, as Batman is roaming through Gotham on his war on crime, he would kill another thug. But this time, the goon he kills has a young son, who in the morning will have to bear the news that his father/mother was brutally shot dead by an armed assailant.
He would have created another orphan.
That young boy would then grow a seething hatred of Batman, and maybe even become a vigilant himself. Roaming the streets at night. Killing others. Creating even more monsters. For revenge against the Dark Knight.
At which point, that orphan would have essentially become another killer just like Batman.
And that, is why Batman refuses to go to that extreme.
Not only does he refuse to commit murder because of his belief in the justice system, Wayne also doesn’t kill these people because he knows the collateral damage it could cause. He would inevitably become what he is trying to put a stop to.
And he doesn’t want others to suffer through what he did.
So no, Batman should never kill. It's against his entire character.
The Golden Age Batman used to kill and Homer Simpson used to be smart. Doesn’t mean people still want those things…