Never make comments but had to on this. Thanks so much! I'm a returning rider after 20 yrs. Bought an Aprilia Tuono 660 and love it but had a severe fear of leaning and felt really unsure around corners. Today is the 5th day and putting these instructions into practice has made a huge difference. Today's ride was a pleasure - thanks so much!!
After completing the Yamaha Championship School online, I was basing my driving in "Lean = Risk", therefore, trying to lean as less as possible. This video made me clear how to deal with it, super clear! Thanks!
I think of like this: Don't look where you are going. Look where you want to go. Your head will lean out , your body will follow, (- and your zipper ;-)) and you are suddenly riding bloody fast! So look where you want to go! And don't be afraid of trailbraking!
Another excellent video Dave... top level coaching for all riders... from novice through to experienced/ professional. I share all your videos with my wife and her novice female biking friends to help build their skills and confidence... it also gives us a common skills language to discuss/debrief our rides round the twisty roads in Scotland. The production quality of your videos is absolutely brilliant. Thanks again for all that you do.
Eyes up was the first lesson for my sport riding class at track day. It makes a huge difference. I appreciate your content and keep it in mind when I go for a romp in the twisties.
French rider here! Love your content! Thanks for all the tips, it's always a pleasure to learn from an experienced rider such as yourself. Just a quick note though. In french "chicken strips" are called "bandes de peur", "Strips of fear". "Les bandages" means...drum roll..."the bandages". Not quite the same thing😂 Cheers!
Je ne sais pas d'ou il a fumé ca.. Meme pas pris le temps de checker 2 sec . Bon .... certains de ces camarades placent la France en Australie , il faut pas leur envouloir 🤫
@@kaveag Australia, Austria...la différence est subtile! Pourquoi ne pas aussi caser la France dans le lot après tout? On a bien réussi à caser le Lot dans la France non?🤣
‘Aim with your zipper’ from the posture video was a game changer for me. I’m good on the brakes but the zipper thing improved my mid turn and exit speeds exponentially…I feel like I have WAY more control over direction and speed literally locating my apex and drawing my line on the road in front of me and stranding the bike up with throttle control instead of steering…another skill building life saving video…saluting you from the canyons of so cal
Very much easy to understand explanation. After finishing the video I got to understand why I fear one side (right) than the other (left). Vision and posture. So in depth. Will now be applying the 3 things on all my rides. Thanks for the video. 😁
Great vid I got alot from it . Comming off sport /sport tourers , I,m now on a bagger and having trouble with the lack of lean over ,so it looks like I now know how I need to change my riding style Cheers Steve
I recently experienced my first slide while tackling a sharp corner (possibly a little too aggressively and most likely counter balancing - it all happened very fast). There was no gravel but the road surface was incredibly smooth and my tires were around 4 years old. It was a sobering experience which has made me a lot more aware of the risk factor in leaning and I am now slowly working on regaining confidence. Thanks for this video as it helps put my experience into perspective and to focus on safe practices.
Thanks again, Dave. This is the type of learning I look for and get from your instruction; practical measures with a philosophical and psychological path to embracing those measures. I rewatch your bike handling vids on a regular basis, just like I reread Keith and Lee’s books, and occasionally retake the Yamaha Champ University online course. I’m not just building muscle memory every day on the bike, I’m building brain memory, too. More of this, please! And thank you, again.
Well done. This is an excellent explanation of cornering from a psychological perspective (which is huge). It also provides lots of good ideas for improving cornering practice, which I am going to use with others (with credit, of course!).
Great work sir. Imo yours is one of the top 2 riding instructional channels on yt. You've taught countless riders how to be safer, faster, and better. I know because you've even taught an old dog like me some new tricks. Thank you man, sincerely for what you do.
Interesting point at the end about your mtn bike. I found that my years of city commuting via bicycles has helped with my riding in intuitive ways I only discovered later with a deep dive into various technical stuff. I will watch that next. Good vid. 👍🤪🏳️🌈
Just the video I needed to see! Just starting out on my riding journey after the MSF and one of the biggest issues I had was the trust the lean even at low speeds. Now that I'm on my own, I've been looking for ways to better myself with practicing and seeing this video has given me the courage to work on it more.
That is one hell of a test crash. I'll be 71 in a week and a half. I've been a motorcycling performance enthusiast for over 50 years now. I may be an old dog but I'm still open to new tricks and have changed my street riding style from what I learned from the California Superbike School 35 years ago to a trail braking style in part because of your videos. Many decades ago I learned to keep my eyes level with the road in a turn. As an older rider I suppose that I get tired more easily than the young guys and moving around the bike all the time is tiring. Being tired introduces it's own risks. I've come to the conclusion that if it's necessary to hang off then that riding should be in a controlled environment (the track), not the street. But that's just my $.02 worth. To each his or her own. I guess I've survived a long time with a fair amount of luck and by avoiding becoming a crash test dummy like the one in your video. :)
The correct answer to every motorcycle question actually begins with it depends, right. It all comes down to context. We may not want to hang off the bike, but we can lean our head/chest into a corner to reduce lean. If we are going slow and have lots of grip, then counterleaning is extremely effective right. But if it's an off camber corner, to even, riding over wet grass, I want to keep that bike as upright as possible. I will say one thing about getting tired - I find, as I get older, a little bit of movement on the bike, rotating my hips and moving my legs helps keep me from getting so stiff and sore and achey.
Agree...the Corbin on my Concours has a "pocket" so I sit partially "in" the seat, not just "on" it. I normally lean in and down in a corner, which helps reduce the bike's lean. I'm not the fastest around a corner, but I'm OK with that.
Leaning into the turn with your body allows the bike to take the turn at a lesser angle at speed than it otherwise would (angular acceleration vs. gravity balanced), this is because there's more tire available when the bike isn't about to scrape hard parts. COUNTER-leaning through a corner isn't about gaining lap speed, taking a curve faster than otherwise. Counter-leaning is about keeping body weight over the tire contact patches, it's about squaring up a corner at LOW SPEED (U-turn, 90° turn, evasive hazard maneuver, gymkhana, whatever), and it should almost never be attempted unless the tires are warm, the road is grippy, you know where the limit of bike clearance is, and you have great throttle control. You can reach the point of turn on brakes, release, dip the bike low and quickly redirect, quickly pop the bike back vertical and accelerate away. Doing this while keeping your body mostly vertical over the contact patch instead of leading your body with the bike makes the whole maneuver much quicker, better traction, and better control. Again, it's low speed quick maneuver stuff, not general highway curve navigation. In the dirt environment, mountain bikers do this to maintain traction while ripping a turn (body over contact patches), dirtbikers do this to maintain traction and balance when the rear is washing due to low traction as it's easy to control the bike when OVER TOP of it, rather than leaning far away from it.
Right! It’s not A is always better than B. The correct answer for almost everything motorcycle question starts with “it depends”. We become better riders when we understand when to use A or B, right?
Also, when I'm taking a tight lower speed corner on a twisty road where I think I might loose traction due to gravel or wet pavement or something, I definitely counter lean in case the back wheel breaks loose. I'm a dirt rider and mtb rider, and ride a vstrom on twisty roads. That bike can lean really far, I generally don't lean off my bike much if at all, maybe its a bad habit but feels safe on my vstrom
@@CanyonChasers Absolutely correct. The mindset is often trending toward the easy way out, in other words, "just tell me how to always do something, make it simple, and let me be on my way". Sorry bub, motorcycling has never been simple and there is never a standard way to do everything. Even engineers haven't been able to fully explain and quantify what makes a bicycle or motorcycle function like it does.
@@colbyprince9409 I've done the same things. It's much easier intuitively reacting to loss of rear traction when your body is hovering over the motorcycle rather than being taken for a ride when it lowsides.
Great video thanks. I saw on a different channel instruction to put pressure on the outside pag once leaned and cornering . Do you agree with that advice ?
Another great video... Up there with the "7 tips" and "7 more tips" videos. Took a while but I appreciate that you made a direct, articulate counter-argument video to the controversial Fortnine video. I do still practice counter-leaning, emergency braking and swerving a lot though. As a daily city traffic commuter, my tactics & strategy are adjusted for close-quarters combat. 😜
Been riding half my life, and in that first half, been down three times. Don't wanna go down again. In just the last year. Sitting at a stop sign in a puddle of oil. Fourth down. Going into a round about too fast with a half flat front tire. Stupid. Frame contact while making a tight u turn. Scary. Wife won't ride with me anymore. This is a great video. Gonna face my fears, keep my eyes up, and try some posture modifications. Thanks.
Great information as always. I try to implement the body position cues but when faced with some physical limitations it gets a bit frustrating knowing what you need to do and being unable to achieve it.
Counter leaning is a carry over from dirt & off road riding. Riding street speeds with neutral to counter leaned body position still leaves chicken (aka safety) strips in the bank. Scrubbing them off on the street while still needing to hang off the inside, sounds more like track speeds (and/or poor line choices) with minimal margin for error. Counter leaning does increase bike lean angle & that also = a tighter turn radius. All these body positions seem to have their place in certain situations. The key, for me, seems to be having the understanding & practice for comfort with deploying them all on the fly as required, under whatever circumstances we find ourselves in.
Thats exactly right. There are very few absolutes in motorcycling. Most things come down to context. But when we understand some core principles we can better know when to apply each technique.
"Les bandes de peur", in french. It translates to "the fear strips", wich is close enough of theses "chicken strip" A "bandage" in french, is the kind of strip you put to protect an injured part of a body. We don't do that to tyres :) Great content, btw.
Thank you so much. I was afraid I remembered wrong, so I asked a friend with a degree in French (but not a rider) and then cross referenced with google translate. I wish I'd have known to ask you. Dur... It's such a brilliant little phrase!
"Chicken strips" can also be a result of the tyres geometry. I was easily able to scrub right to the edge of my old rear tyre but on my new tyres (Metzeler Roadtec 02) they rear tyre is really flat through the middle and then steepens up a lot to the edge and I am yet to scrub it all the way to the edge. I have about 1.5-2cm of untouched tyre there. To be clear, I am not scrubbing my tyre to the edge at 200km/h, there just happens to be a road near where I live called the "Crown Range" that goes over a mountain pass between Wanaka and Queenstown in New Zealand. When you are going from Queenstown to Wanaka on that road there are heaps of super tight uphill switch backs so you can lean the bike down a lot even at relatively slow speeds.
I learned the Total Control Intermediate Rider Course method and it changed my riding, by giving me the confidence I didn’t ave in corners. Unfortunately there is a RUclipsr that teaches the exact opposite! I don’t really worry about ‘chicken strips’ I seem to have them for quite awhile when I have new tires.
I really don't like the negative aspect of chicken strips. Both tires used as examples in this video were from both of Mrs CanyonChasers bikes. One she rides at the track and obviously has plenty of confidenc turning. The other is her street bike where she is conservative with lean angle in corners. A great example about how they are not a visual representation of skill or fear.
Got rid of my fear by doing a ‘skills day’ on a closed circuit, amazed by the grip of modern tyres and the benefits of counter steering, what chicken strips😆. The instructors gave similar advice to yourself and I now can brake to the full limit of the tyre without thinking I’m going to crash. Twenty years later I’m still enjoying fast cornering with safety… PS. Love the bike, just ordered a 2025 V4S after enjoying 10,000 miles on my V2S.
5 дней назад
Lots of grip on that circuit I bet, but a bit of gravel on the open road at full lean and....Thats why its still risky.
I love it. The value of a track day to really learn and understand what we and the bike are capable of. So we don’t panic when we need to lean a bit more for some reason.
I understand that counter steering is and always will be the primary/most important tool for cornering. John Del Vecchio Cornering Confidence. Getting the body to inside, not down, but on the inside, allows faster cornering speeds with less lean/less risk. Even doing this from just the waist up makes a significant difference. Following this to the limit, that is getting a knee down at a Moto GP event. Another piece that really helped me was “rear wheel steering” from the moto gymkhana riders, glad you mentioned these techniques even though you didn’t cite the source in the same way. Turning hips and shoulders in the desired direction, pressing the outside knee up and into the tank was a game changer for me. At lower speeds, rear wheel steering is effective just by itself, less so at higher speeds. What I figured out by being aware of this aspect of my lower body, turning my hips and shoulders, I was allowing the bike to fully respond to the counter steering input. When I wasn’t getting weight to the inside, and not turning my hips and pressing the outside leg against of the bike, I was unintentionally introducing counter productive inputs to the bike, I was interfering with the bike fully responding to the counter steering input. My cornering speed, comfort and effectiveness has improved significantly without additional lean angle or risk, this give a greater margin that if a corner is misjudged, there is counter steering input and lean angle in reserve.
I love this! Yeah, I didn't mean to not cite the source because we like to look at what the best riders in the world (who aren't crashing) are doing. And they are all doing the same basic things. Another fun thing about this kind of posture is that it does introduce a little but of pressing straight down on the inside handlebar, which by itself creates a natural countersteer and helps the bike tip in with less pressure.
@ It is nice to see channels open to the range of techniques. Earlier, I had reached out to another channel describing my experience with rear wheel steering in conjunction with counter steering, asking the individual if they could discuss it. Turns out he has a black belt in being an arrogant ass with a frail ego, responded that I didn’t know what I was talking about, that I was too stupid to understand that the only technique that works is counter steering and my sources were ignorant you tube hacks as opposed to him that was “actually a skilled rider and coach”. I would like to see more on the rear wheel steering technique if you are able to, I think it would help others maximize the benefits of counter steering.
As I recall you are located in Utah so I will assume you filmed this episode on roads in Utah. I really need to get to Utah; those roads look heavenly!
You've made many good videos, this one is excellent- thank you! Question: I don't think I can get away with putting cones on the school near us, but they have parking stripes. Will using the corners (90 degrees) be helpful instead of a U-turn?
Absolutely be mindful of stripes, if cold or moist (or hot really) they can be slippy. A 90-degree might be a good place to start, but it's not enough time at lean to get the most out of the practice. Perhaps start at 90 and then add more corner as confidence/comfort grows.
It's very much a psychological limit. Pointing your chin and your zipper at the exit point - I'll have to remember that. Mentally, I'll try to "connect" my eyes to the exit point, like forming a virtual cord or rod through space between my head and the exit point, and then focus my body on "getting the bike out from under me" so I can lean into the turn. If I put my body into the turn first, it allows the bike to stay more upright. It sounds more dramatic than it looks, because all I really do is kinda lean my upper body into the turn. I never get a knee down, never go full motoGP. I'm on an ADV bike. But that's how I've been training myself to get into those turns a little more fully. I'll remember the chin & zipper posture.
I hear the logic but ... nature tells us something different. Animals of prey (leopards, cheetahs, lions, etc., ...) all adjust their heads by counter-leaning / counterbalancing to keep level while their body is all over the place. Birds of prey are the same. Even chickens (ever seen that video where a person holds a chicken by it's body and then moves it up and down yet the head remains in the same place?). So I think it really is just about conditioning and repetition to remove the concerns and replace those subconscious fears with learned confidence. It's exactly the same with skiing (both getting over the fear and the physical geometry).
I mean, we're doing the same thing. We're keeping our eyes level with the horizon and putting our focus on where we are going. Our head is level, our body and bike are not.
in French it is 'la bande de la peur' or fear strip. Bandage is more like band aid, well if one is feared to fall, then there are good chances that person is gong to fall and need band aid. Otherwise I am a great fan of what you od for the riders, these confirmed and beginning. you help a lot. Thank you bro
Thank you!! I wasn’t sure if I remembered correctly. I asked a friend who has a degree in French (but not a rider) and then Google translate. I wish I’d have known to ask you. It’s such a fantastic bit of jargon. Way more clever than “chicken strips”
Is there any benefit to scrubbing out chicken strips in terms of breaking in the tire? I have some pretty thick ones, since I ride well within what I’m comfortable handling, but I wonder if it’d be worth doing some circles in a parking lot so that the margins are a bit grippier if I ever need to use them.
I personally try to minimize lean. I just adjust my speed and hang my body / weight my inside foot. I only lean the bike with counter steering after doing the other two. Corning is most about speed management and going fast on a straight away to getting to the maintenance speed of a turn as you go into it. That's mostly about being good a breaking, knowing how the particular bike your riding handles corners at a particular speed, and less about how much you lean your bike. You can take really sharp corners if you're good at slowing down.
few years ago... maybe 2-3 years back...i gained confidence to lean watching one of their videos about "trail braking". one day on a slippery rode during a rainy day i lowsided whilst leaninig in a curve and got scared ever since
Rain is usually cooler temps. Rain usually means oils come up out of the pavement (early on). If you lost traction early in the ride, your tires may not have been warm enough, that's besides the fact that in places where traffic frequents, a newly wet road is very hazardous due to oils. If your tires are the proper kind for touring and running about (sports tourer tires), in good condition to remove water between the road and the rubber, you will have surprising traction in the rain (without the oil surface and after the tire is warm).
We want to be adaptable and adjustable. Adapting and adjusting based on the conditions. I absolutely slow waaaaaaaay down on a wet road. I'm trail braking, but even earlier and even lighter with even less pressure, and I'm absolutely doing everything possible to keep the bike as upright as possible because I have so much less grip.
The biggest issue is places to practice greater lean it and no, carparks will never be it. LOL, started typing this before watching all the way through but there’s some practical info here. Take a relatively innocuous bike with a very common tyre… Mt03 and Road 6. Set a relatively basic goal. No chicken strips at neutral body position lean. Doing circles in a carpark on a 20 deg C day won’t put enough heat in the tyre to give you the grip needed to stop the front from pushing. You will crash before you get any real lean. You can only increase the lean by counter leaning. Or you can warm the tyres but you’re not putting enough into the tyres to keep them at temp. You can lower the pressure, but it won’t help much with the handling feel. That's my biggest beef with people telling people to go to a carpark. People see carparks as safe places but there's a genuinely a higher risk doing it there than doing it on a canyon road. You need a location that presents a series of good corners with enough braking and acceleration to put and maintain temperature in the tyres. This generally means small tracks with small straights just long enough to allow body position change , lots of sweeping corners with varying, increasing radii. Sadly no one makes such a track, and thus everything is a compromise. Some supermoto and kart tracks might fit this however some of them have tight radii turns that you physically cannot turn your head enough to look anywhere through the turn. They’re better than nothing though. Damn you are lucky to have access to that slab of bitumen.
What are the best tires for a 2017 tuono v4? I mostly do commuting with occasional twisty roads. Currently have Michelin road 5s and am hoping for something a bit stickier
Totally the same and you guys often reap even more benefits because you have less overall lean angle. I teach our local highway patrol and they quickly fall in love with this and will be going quicker at the end of the day and rarely touching the floorboards. So faster with less risk. Win/win!
Please can you describe the sequence of body movements/postural changes from after the slowest point in the corner to standing the bike up with your body back in the midline. What I mean is how to smoothly and efficently get back up. I haven't found any decent description of this neither in books nor online. Weight on outside footpeg etc, ?
I should do a video about it. It’s pretty straightforward but quite important. We drop pit head to the inside and push the bike upright. We take away lean as we add throttle. In a racetrack scenario we basically want to be at WFO at the same time the bike is upright. So while not done abruptly, it’s done rather quickly.
My biggest fear is tire grip. I started riding the mid 60s when I had two lowsides and another low slide which saved. These were all due to the terrible tires of the day and road conditions. Wet road, diesel spill and sea water that washed over the roadway. With better tires two of the three wouldn't have happened. However to this day tire grip is my biggest concern and fear.
Haven't watched the video yet (just got to work), but Ryan/Fortnine recommended counterlean at low speeds, and leaning at high speeds (basically only on the track, you won't reach high enough speeds on public roads). Your thumbnail seems to recommend the opposite? (His video is called Motorcycle Riders - You're Leaning the Wrong Way).
Leaning a motorcycle is very much dependent on circumstances and conditions. If you're looking for ONLY ONE WAY TO ALWAYS DO IT, then you're missing many other factors. Assuming you're not afraid of anything, counter-leaning keeps the weight of your body over the contact patches, rather than away from the contact patches. That's the point of counterleaning; traction, and ability to react quickly to a rear skid. Mountain bikers do this, dirtbikers do this, road going bikers do this. All depends on conditions, confidence, purpose, and where.
My advice would be to watch the video before commenting. That seems like a good idea but you know you could just randomly comment on the thumbnail and that makes sense. 🙄
If you watch his video where he's talking about high speeds, he's going 50kph. 35mph. He's correct, although both of his video's on the topic are alarmingly misleading and lacking context. I've watched quite a few students crash right in front of me because they counterleaned when they should have taken away lean, and when I talk to them about it they've all said "But RF9 said..." Those video's are literally getting people hurt. Context is everything. There's a time and a place for both, A is not always better than B.
Thats what they say, but in all my years of doing this, it's actually quite rare for the gravel to be the culprit. It's usually the panicked reaction before the gravel that causes the problem.
@@CanyonChasers I remember you have an excellent video on what to do when you encounter something slippery. You're right, panic is a luxury we don't have on two wheels. We must keep our head cool when something scary happens, and if we can't do that, we probably shouldn't be on a bike. I remember a RUclips crash video where the tire slid over something slippery in a turn. The bike was already stabilizing itself after the slippery spot, and would for sure have stayed up if the rider had done nothing. Unfortunately, the rider hammered the brake, preventing the bike from stabilizing itself. And of course, just like you say, the rider thinks he fell because of something slippery, instead of blaming his panic response. (Even so, if we have to lean further and/or brake in order to avoid a patch of gravel, we should definitely do that. And at this point, it's nice to know that the chicken strips are not zero, so that if the need arises, we have this option.)
@CanyonChasers It's called SR at California Superbike School which stands for Survival Reaponse. I always thought that was a silly thing to call it because if that's how you respond it doesn't result in Survival. I call them FIM Fear Induced Mistakes.
No fear on that pikes peak with 200/60 rear and lowered front until I forget that I don't have sport bike clearance and the right foot gets caught (because of the stupid 3/4 akra with its double pipes that ruin the foot position/ergos) in addition to regular outer toe slider grind. Then I get the fear of lack of ground clearance, at least it's not as bad as on the diavel or v100 mandello where I got into trouble in no time after being used to my tuono at the time.
@CanyonChasers yeah, I kinda wish I got bhp uk decat or something else instead. Haven't put the center stand on my v4, it's just sitting on a shelf since I have bad memories of it from my hyper.
Where is that parking lot? I need one of those! :) Nice vid. Lead with chin. Vision+ (site picture...really). Counterlean...terrifying to witness when we're coaching! Point your zipper...gold! No tight grip, no pressure on bars after input. I have riders slow down and just focus on their contact points to understand what needs to be modified and how fixing those things makes the bike lose 100#. Once students do that, they seem to be 80% of the way toward "good" (tiny adjustments with body). I used to ride with a guy who went through a few $400 sets of gloves each season... Please ditch the 360 camera...it isn't even close to what a rider sees and experiences. Chicken strips can also be that a person has only one bike for street and track... Thank you!
I was going to ask about the parking lot, too. I have trouble even finding one suitable for practicing slow speed maneuvers that I won’t get kicked out of in the LA area 😆
How much attention do you give to the actual road surface as you're rolling through a corner? I struggle to pull my eyes away from every bump, crack, leaf, tar snake, etc... on the road, and I know it slows me down more than it should 😖 Is this just a matter of me needing to put more trust in my tires and suspension???
I put a TON of attention on the road surface. Thats a MAJOR concern for me. The technique for this is called "fast eyes" - I think I talk about it a lot in my last video about "over slowing". Basically we want to look up and scan back at the road surface then look up again as fast as we can. It's actually the thing I say to myself inside my helmet more than anything else. Fast eyes!
@@CanyonChasers Thanks for the reply. I'll go back and watch that video again, and I'll definitely be working on "fast(er) eyes" for the coming riding season!!!
There's an unconscious perception that people have when they see someone in a video riding at high lean in a corner that the viewer themselves has never ridden through. The viewer subconsciously presumes that it's the first time the rider has gone through that corner when in reality it's highly likely that the rider has gone through that corner scores if not hundreds of times and knows it intimately. Put the same rider on a road they've never ridden before and they wont ride it the same because they'll be scanning for everything with maximum attention. If it's a road they're familiar with then they will be paying attention to what's different from the last time they rode through.
I’m from Hong Kong watching this video because I will be picking up my 200 hp+ S1000rr in two weeks time, and I haven’t ridden a big bike for over 10 years! I’m naturally very nervous especially with cornering because it’s such a big powerful bike (I bought it for its looks!) I’ve seen elsewhere on RUclips that counter balancing is one of the 3 or 4 cornering techniques. In this video seems you don’t encourage people to do so but instead lean with the bike in the same cornering direction. I’m a bit puzzled - appreciate if you could elaborate more - should we forget counterbalancing altogether?
Counterbalancing is over sold by riders who don’t fully understand the physics. It’s a technique that has value in slow speed maneuvers because at low speed in a parking lot we have a ton of mechanical grip and motorcycles must lean to change direction. But it quickly falls apart when the speed comes up or the grip goes down. Fundamentally, high speed and low grip are the same thing. When we are going slow with lots of grip, nothing really matters, right. If you are riding on wet grass and needed to turn, would you counterlean? Of course not. You’d do everything you could to keep the bike upright with zero lean. We don’t train for ideal conditions. We train for what works when everything matters.
I'm in Utah. Lots of opportunities from "I just want to do a trackday when I'm there to help out" to some much more structured schools. Links are in the description. :)
Thank you for another great video. "Counter-leaning makes it easier to see beyond the corner" is a true statement for street riding though - obviously as opposed to hanging off because if you have a left turn followed almost immediately by a right, the bike will block your view of the next corner. That being said, one shouldn't be hanging off when street riding either.
The correct answer for almost every motorcycle question should begin wiht "it depends". So, not necessarily. Because the bike is leaning more, your head might actually be lower - even though it feels higher. However, in a fast left/right transition, the bike isn't going to be at lean for very long, so the risk is minimal. Thats a place where more of a swerve counterlean is going to be valuable. We shouldn't be hanging off like motorgp riders on the street, to be sure, but we can rotate our body into a corner and reduce lean, while leaving our bum on the seat, and give ourselves more grip to work with. It's not that A is better than B. It's that it all comes down to context. The good rider knows when to deploy each technique. The problem with counterleaning is that it has been way oversold with misleading evidence. It's a valuable skill but it quickly becomes less useful when the speed comes up or the grip goes down.
@@CanyonChasers "It depends" goes without saying. I sometimes lean with the bike and counterlean at other times going through the same corner. I've never heard of swerve counterlean, so happy to discover something new to learn! Part of the "problem" with counterleaning as a fad (I think) is that the rider doesn't feel like they are leaning that far, but the bike is. Therefore the risk perceived by the rider is less than the actual risk which might, especially for inexperienced riders, cause them to be overconfident and not realize how close they are to the bike's or tyres' limit. Thank you for your response, and now I'm off to learn what swerve counterlean is. And while I have you, another thanks for a trail braking video from about 7 years ago. I still remember the words "what are you gonna do, add more coast?"
So, a swerve counterlean is basically what you are probably already doing - you keep your body mostly upright and let the bike lean underneath you. Because you are doing a fast(ish) left-right transition, there is little benefit (and a whole lot of effort) to try to move your body to the inside on each side in rapid succession. But as riders, we need to recognize the limit to how far we can push it in this situation because we don't want to run out of lean angle or grip, right?
@@CanyonChasers Oh yeah, especially in the dirt. I just didn't know the name for it. I make a conscious effort to keep it at about 80-85% max because you never know what might be around the next bend. Thanks again!
I have one silly suggestion to aid new riders understanding of this video. You might consider wearing a jacket with a zipper, in order to better illustrate what you mean when you say “point your zipper”. Silly, I know… Just not sure the really new guys will know exactly what you mean.
How did "I" learn to lean? I got a puncture... and had to replace the rear tyre! The difference was so pronounced that I went back and got a matching front the next weekend. What was CAUSING the FEAR of LEANING, was the LACK OF GRIP! Once the new tyres were on, I felt confident enough to tackle a long very twisty road that would make Americans poo themselves... and because the new tyres had grip, I could push them harder than I ever could on the Factory fitted tyres made in India (MRF) and being able to push on them allowed them to hear up and give me a level of grip I had never felt before! the fear quickly changed from "I don't have enough grip to corner at this speed, it feels like it will wash out" to "Oh god, how close is my foot to the ground?" The fear is NOT always mental... but it IS always a response to something MECHANICAL! If you can't feel grip, you know you can't feel grip. and you don't push beyond what you can feel! when you get grip, you test it... you look for the point where you start to feel it diminishing! and if it goes from strong grip to "gone" you will never push that hard again... and that is a RESPONCE to something MECHANICAL!
I dont really know why americans are so obsessed with leaning into the turn/hanging-off at nearly every time, do you only have fast wide open "turns" like you are on a racetrack? Because its the opposite of a safe riding technique if you dont have full visibility through the turn. Lean = risk..., you know whats also risky? hanging off into the turn, leading to bad vision, slower reaction time and maneuverability and feel because you are not as connected to the bike. Counterleaning or neutral leaning (with the bike) are still the safest techniques for twisty roads, sure if you know the road and have full visilibity through the turn you can do some hang-off but it shouldnt be the main technique. Ryan of Fortnite has a good video about that.
The correct answer to almost every motorcycle question should begin with “it depends”. RF9 wasn’t exactly wrong but he offered no context making those videos exceedingly misleading. The number of riders I’ve watched crash right in front of me when they counterleaned when they should have taken away lean is depressingly high. When I talk to them about it they say “but Ryan said to counterlean”. Those videos are literally getting people hurt. There’s is a time for both. But as the speed comes up or the grip goes down, counter leaning becomes increasingly less valuable.
Nice hat! While I'm happy that this indicates an awareness that there ARE actually places outside of California, it's too bad that you insist on CANYONS. We don't have those in New York State; but we sure got some tasty green mountain roads.. without the barren dust and rocks. Come on out.
@@CanyonChasers Catskill Mtns, Adirondacks, Mohawk Valley, Southern Tier, Delaware River, Hudson Highlands, Atlantic Ocean... then there's New England. But alas, not one damn "canyon" anywhere.
Speed equals radius. If we are running wide, into oncoming traffic and we need to tighten our line? What is our best option? Squeezing (not grabbing) the front brake.
get good on a disposable bike with good street tires on it. Dual sports are indestructible, but those square dual sport tires will MESS YOU UP and are dangerous. Shortcutting a corner into oncoming traffic is a BAD Day. You can't be fearless if the cost of new fairings or scratches bother you. Fearless is where you want to be. You will drop your bike, and several times to get good.
difference in "body lean" to "Bike Lean"... this is something SPORT bike riders ASSUME is the IDENTICAL for ALL motorcycles... NOT all Motorcycles are designed the same way, they DO NOT handle the same way! A V-strom for example has a very different Ballance to an 8R. you have to lean the bike a different amount in the same corner at the same speed and line, if you have the Vstrom stood up too much like you would do with an 8R while hanging off the inside. IT WILL NOT TURN. you have to lean the Vstrom over MORE than the 8R and that means less angle of your upper body! I Dare you to try riding a Vstrom 800 (with the exact same engine as the 8R) the same way you ride an 8R and see if you stay out of Hospital!
How come counter leaning dangerous?? Sometimes in a tight corner coming tighter at slow speed the counter lean is the only thing making corner. Especially on parking lot training tight 8's...
It’s not so much that’s it’s dangerous, but more that in some situations it increases our risk. We treat speed and low grip effectively the same. The faster we’re going the closer we are to the edge of grip. Counterleaning is awesome when we are going slow _and_ we have a lot of mechanical grip. Outside of that it’s risky because the tire is more likely to slide laterally. Something that may be desirable in some situations, like dirt bikes or flat track. But massively undesirable in others, right? But now imagine you are riding on wet grass. Do you want to counterlean now? Of course not. You want to keep the bike as upright as possible. Same thing. Reducing lean isn’t something we save for extreme speeds, we can reduce lean and reduce risk at any speed.
@CanyonChasers sure it depends on the bike type and environment conditions, on most of the time it should be just fine for regular rider. As a newbie biker, I've learned this in school and using on road as needed. Eg. last resort at trailing into the corner and maintaining the speed, then realizing it's getting tighter and don't want to brake in the corner already at lean, then I counter lean/steer it a bit further to make the corner line out. For example at track days with more speed I'm fully leaned and scraping footpegs, so I'm moving body weight in to the corner to reduce the angle. What I'm trying to say is, modern road bikes and good tyres already have enough grip to make impressive lean angles, it's the breaking that is dangerous (and objects on road). Also, speed does not kill, deceleration or stopping does IMHO:) Similar to your analogy, I've been several times off the track on the grass at a angle and we're not suppose to brake, even upright so they said.
Thank you so much. I was afraid I remembered wrong, so I asked a friend with a degree in French (but not a rider) and then cross referenced with google translate. I wish I'd have known to ask you. Dur... It's such a brilliant little phrase!
In my experience, If you understand how to corner well but still unable to use all the tread naturally then its definitely your suspension isnt setup correctly
Sometimes. It could also be geometry or even tire choice. Some tires are more flat. Some more pointy, etc. Funny enough on the track bike with a 120/70 front tire there are always wide strips of unused rubber. With the 125/70 no more chicken strips.
For high speed stuff, because that’s what they were taught. When I’ve done contract work with highway patrol motors we work pretty hard to get them to stop and they are always amazed by how much quicker they can go while feeling like they have more control. Try not to look at motor cops as the shining example of professional riding. The vast majority of them are not especially good riders (outside of parade drills). The percentage of officers injured in high speed pursuits is actually quite high. For many, it’s just something they do for a few years for promotion points. Many of them never ride a motorcycle again once they get promoted. Fortunately for our local highway patrol, we had an officer get into racing thinking he would clean up. He was a back marker. He quickly realized why and worked really hard to update their training. Which is when I got involved.
Indeed they will. It's impressive! But also, they don't care if they drop their bike. I've attended one of their training programs. Those bikes are laying on the ground as much as they are being ridden.
@@CanyonChasersThanks for the insight on this comment. Years ago, I got a ticket riding canyon, admittedly going a little too fast but was leaning in all the corners. The CHP that followed me berated me on my riding, blasting me for leaning when in his view I shouldn't have..blah blah. Telling me I am riding like a noob, which I wasn't, in fact at that point I already taken YCRS twice. At that time I didn't know better and ding my confidence quite a bit because I was holding CHP riders thinking they might know better.. based on your comments, guess this probably wasn't the case. Good to know now after all these years
@@MaxPowerFilthcrud seriously tgere are no tsrmac patches. No one tarmacs something they ain't using. The bypa3road left uncompleted some years ago was best best but those days are over. Its all getting done now. I even looked on satellite map lol.
Fear on the street is good. A good street rider isn't a fast rider... It's a safe and smart one. If you're trying to push yourself to lean more on the street you're probably not being safe or smart.
One thing that really was made clear to us riders from the head coach from the advanced training course I went on, if you actually need to hang off the bike like a monkey to safely get around a corner at legal road speed limits zones - you are going too bloody fast unless your riding in extreme wind conditions which means hanging like a monkey is a safer option at times then normal countersteer leaning cornering. That head coach for that course was a retired motorcycle officer riding instuctor for the Uk police as well as a urgent blood courier in his free time, try keeping up with a rider like that without good training yourself and you find out fast just how bad a rider you are even with years of riding experience. No hanging off the bike like a monkey in the corners with riders like this, yet they're super smooth, effciently bloody fast in city & open road speeds, their trust in their tyres & bikes is really good because they actually make the effort to understand the limitions of it. The up shot from that training I went thru is simple but profound, there is only two situations when you'll ever see me going hanging monkey style while riding, in extreme wind conditions only to counter balence windforce effects, the other is when traveling over 150kph average speed on track. Other wise it's good countersteer leaning technique while riding city & open road with other road users and yes you can travel effciently & safely bloody fast doing so, if it's good for the police & other government agencys that use motorcycles as rapid response units around the world it's not to be laughed at or taken lightly. Having no chicken strips from track racing is understandable & even acceptable on a modern bike with modern generation tyres, no chicken strips if all they're doing is open road riding only is a sure sign of a crazed monkey speed demon who doesn't give a flying fecking shit about anyone but themselves.
@@apsalar_coruscan, have you ever watched the youtube videos of motorcycle police doing motorcycle gymkhana competitions, thats what you call trust in your tyres & bike and good training. Riders with good counter steer leaning technique don't need to hang off the bike to get around corners safely and with plenty of tyre tread in contact on the road because they have learnt their bike and that makes one hell of a beneficial difference to one's riding abilty in the corners. Sadly most riders don't even bother to learn or practice how to ride their bike to it's full safe cornering potential, hence why riders still need to hang off the bike like a monkey when they don't actually have too. Counter steer leaning technique works for both safe speed tarseal & gravel riding, while hanging monkey off the bike is a real quick way of crashing while riding gravel, motogp level riders a known to ride motocross to improve their riding abilities at speed in the corners on the track, sadly motogp skills don't do the same for motocross cornering abilities.
@@lyellharrington7260 They're going slow with excellent grip. Nothing matters when you're going slow or the grip level is high. Wby on earth would I train a technique that only works when speed are low or grip is high?
@@apsalar_coruscan, YES I can ride hanging monkey/knee down when I need to at high or low speeds but the reality is you don't really need to for 99.9% percent of your riding time for normal open road or city riding be it gravel or tarseal. Did you actually read what I wrote about the two situations when I would need to use a hanging monkey style to get around corners in the first place - pay full attention to the second riding situation I wrote or did you shut your brain down for the whole original comment. Just because some youtuber who teaches at Champschool which is tracked based speed training says to hang off the bike to get around a corner safely and yes there are other youtubers who are fully trained instructors as well who have mentioned the youtuber of this video and others from the USA for reasons that aren't fully complimenty for safety reasons in the realworld riding techniques situations. Strangely enough I rather take the training advice from a proper full on motorcycle police officer who is a fully credited motorcycle training instructor for the police than any youtuber, and not hanging off the bike like a monkey is his normal riding style for city & open road use then it's good for any rider. Leave the no chicken strip stuff for the track and it controled enviroment not the open road.
@lyellharrington7260 why don't you read one of his reply earlier about CHP officer training he was involved in and his thought on their riding ability before posting such stupid crap about Dave being RUclipsr only teaching fast track riding technique and not know what is talking about when it comes to leaning.. etc. Better yet take YCRS yourself and see how this instructors humble you to oblivion..
Sorta. He's arguably one of the greatest of all time. I even got to meet him once. I'm a huge fan, but this is often misquoted for the wrong effect. He suffered a major leg injury and had virtually no strenght in one leg. He didn't win becuase he used counter-leaning. He won despite using counter-leaning.
Possibly the best motorcycling channel on RUclips
Never make comments but had to on this. Thanks so much! I'm a returning rider after 20 yrs. Bought an Aprilia Tuono 660 and love it but had a severe fear of leaning and felt really unsure around corners. Today is the 5th day and putting these instructions into practice has made a huge difference. Today's ride was a pleasure - thanks so much!!
After completing the Yamaha Championship School online, I was basing my driving in "Lean = Risk", therefore, trying to lean as less as possible. This video made me clear how to deal with it, super clear! Thanks!
I think of like this: Don't look where you are going. Look where you want to go. Your head will lean out , your body will follow, (- and your zipper ;-)) and you are suddenly riding bloody fast! So look where you want to go! And don't be afraid of trailbraking!
Another excellent video Dave... top level coaching for all riders... from novice through to experienced/ professional. I share all your videos with my wife and her novice female biking friends to help build their skills and confidence... it also gives us a common skills language to discuss/debrief our rides round the twisty roads in Scotland.
The production quality of your videos is absolutely brilliant.
Thanks again for all that you do.
Thanks for that! And by the way, we just LOVE Scotland. It’s one of our most favorite places in the world.
Eyes up was the first lesson for my sport riding class at track day. It makes a huge difference. I appreciate your content and keep it in mind when I go for a romp in the twisties.
It’s really the foundation of everything, right?
Once again, well said, Dave! I enjoy your advice immensely! Gordon. Been riding for 51 years, still learning and improving.
Your lessons are in my head everytime I ride. I'm super grateful for this channel.
That is so awesome to hear! Thank you for being a part of this!
French rider here! Love your content!
Thanks for all the tips, it's always a pleasure to learn from an experienced rider such as yourself.
Just a quick note though. In french "chicken strips" are called "bandes de peur", "Strips of fear". "Les bandages" means...drum roll..."the bandages". Not quite the same thing😂
Cheers!
Je ne sais pas d'ou il a fumé ca.. Meme pas pris le temps de checker 2 sec . Bon .... certains de ces camarades placent la France en Australie , il faut pas leur envouloir 🤫
@@kaveag Australia, Austria...la différence est subtile! Pourquoi ne pas aussi caser la France dans le lot après tout? On a bien réussi à caser le Lot dans la France non?🤣
‘Aim with your zipper’ from the posture video was a game changer for me. I’m good on the brakes but the zipper thing improved my mid turn and exit speeds exponentially…I feel like I have WAY more control over direction and speed literally locating my apex and drawing my line on the road in front of me and stranding the bike up with throttle control instead of steering…another skill building life saving video…saluting you from the canyons of so cal
Very much easy to understand explanation. After finishing the video I got to understand why I fear one side (right) than the other (left). Vision and posture. So in depth. Will now be applying the 3 things on all my rides. Thanks for the video. 😁
Great vid I got alot from it . Comming off sport /sport tourers , I,m now on a bagger and having trouble with the lack of lean over ,so it looks like I now know how I need to change my riding style Cheers Steve
I recently experienced my first slide while tackling a sharp corner (possibly a little too aggressively and most likely counter balancing - it all happened very fast). There was no gravel but the road surface was incredibly smooth and my tires were around 4 years old. It was a sobering experience which has made me a lot more aware of the risk factor in leaning and I am now slowly working on regaining confidence. Thanks for this video as it helps put my experience into perspective and to focus on safe practices.
Riding season is just about over where I live. Will watch it again in Spring.
Thanks again, Dave. This is the type of learning I look for and get from your instruction; practical measures with a philosophical and psychological path to embracing those measures. I rewatch your bike handling vids on a regular basis, just like I reread Keith and Lee’s books, and occasionally retake the Yamaha Champ University online course. I’m not just building muscle memory every day on the bike, I’m building brain memory, too.
More of this, please! And thank you, again.
Well done. This is an excellent explanation of cornering from a psychological perspective (which is huge). It also provides lots of good ideas for improving cornering practice, which I am going to use with others (with credit, of course!).
Another great video Dave. Keep up the good work. I always think of your techniques when riding here in Australia.
Thank you! And your riding season is just kicking off, yeah? Lucky! We got snow yesterday.
Great work sir. Imo yours is one of the top 2 riding instructional channels on yt. You've taught countless riders how to be safer, faster, and better. I know because you've even taught an old dog like me some new tricks. Thank you man, sincerely for what you do.
I am truly humbled by that, thank you so much!
thank you so much, coach!
You’re very welcome!
You've explained this really well. Your channel is awesome. Thank you.
You're very welcome!
Outstanding video.
Thank you Dave, awesome perspectives.
You are most welcome!
Interesting point at the end about your mtn bike. I found that my years of city commuting via bicycles has helped with my riding in intuitive ways I only discovered later with a deep dive into various technical stuff. I will watch that next. Good vid. 👍🤪🏳️🌈
Just the video I needed to see! Just starting out on my riding journey after the MSF and one of the biggest issues I had was the trust the lean even at low speeds. Now that I'm on my own, I've been looking for ways to better myself with practicing and seeing this video has given me the courage to work on it more.
I'm glad you found it helpful!
Brilliant, thanks!
Lean Risk; Lean == Fun;
That is one hell of a test crash.
I'll be 71 in a week and a half. I've been a motorcycling performance enthusiast for over 50 years now. I may be an old dog but I'm still open to new tricks and have changed my street riding style from what I learned from the California Superbike School 35 years ago to a trail braking style in part because of your videos. Many decades ago I learned to keep my eyes level with the road in a turn.
As an older rider I suppose that I get tired more easily than the young guys and moving around the bike all the time is tiring. Being tired introduces it's own risks.
I've come to the conclusion that if it's necessary to hang off then that riding should be in a controlled environment (the track), not the street. But that's just my $.02 worth. To each his or her own. I guess I've survived a long time with a fair amount of luck and by avoiding becoming a crash test dummy like the one in your video. :)
The correct answer to every motorcycle question actually begins with it depends, right. It all comes down to context. We may not want to hang off the bike, but we can lean our head/chest into a corner to reduce lean. If we are going slow and have lots of grip, then counterleaning is extremely effective right. But if it's an off camber corner, to even, riding over wet grass, I want to keep that bike as upright as possible.
I will say one thing about getting tired - I find, as I get older, a little bit of movement on the bike, rotating my hips and moving my legs helps keep me from getting so stiff and sore and achey.
Agree...the Corbin on my Concours has a "pocket" so I sit partially "in" the seat, not just "on" it. I normally lean in and down in a corner, which helps reduce the bike's lean. I'm not the fastest around a corner, but I'm OK with that.
What crash
@@Abdal-RahmanI Crash is @ 4:54 (Crash detection in the Cardo ad)
Leaning into the turn with your body allows the bike to take the turn at a lesser angle at speed than it otherwise would (angular acceleration vs. gravity balanced), this is because there's more tire available when the bike isn't about to scrape hard parts.
COUNTER-leaning through a corner isn't about gaining lap speed, taking a curve faster than otherwise. Counter-leaning is about keeping body weight over the tire contact patches, it's about squaring up a corner at LOW SPEED (U-turn, 90° turn, evasive hazard maneuver, gymkhana, whatever), and it should almost never be attempted unless the tires are warm, the road is grippy, you know where the limit of bike clearance is, and you have great throttle control. You can reach the point of turn on brakes, release, dip the bike low and quickly redirect, quickly pop the bike back vertical and accelerate away. Doing this while keeping your body mostly vertical over the contact patch instead of leading your body with the bike makes the whole maneuver much quicker, better traction, and better control. Again, it's low speed quick maneuver stuff, not general highway curve navigation.
In the dirt environment, mountain bikers do this to maintain traction while ripping a turn (body over contact patches), dirtbikers do this to maintain traction and balance when the rear is washing due to low traction as it's easy to control the bike when OVER TOP of it, rather than leaning far away from it.
Right! It’s not A is always better than B. The correct answer for almost everything motorcycle question starts with “it depends”. We become better riders when we understand when to use A or B, right?
Also, when I'm taking a tight lower speed corner on a twisty road where I think I might loose traction due to gravel or wet pavement or something, I definitely counter lean in case the back wheel breaks loose. I'm a dirt rider and mtb rider, and ride a vstrom on twisty roads. That bike can lean really far, I generally don't lean off my bike much if at all, maybe its a bad habit but feels safe on my vstrom
@@CanyonChasers Absolutely correct. The mindset is often trending toward the easy way out, in other words, "just tell me how to always do something, make it simple, and let me be on my way". Sorry bub, motorcycling has never been simple and there is never a standard way to do everything. Even engineers haven't been able to fully explain and quantify what makes a bicycle or motorcycle function like it does.
@@colbyprince9409 I've done the same things. It's much easier intuitively reacting to loss of rear traction when your body is hovering over the motorcycle rather than being taken for a ride when it lowsides.
Great video!! Thanks!
Great video thanks. I saw on a different channel instruction to put pressure on the outside pag once leaned and cornering . Do you agree with that advice ?
Another great video... Up there with the "7 tips" and "7 more tips" videos. Took a while but I appreciate that you made a direct, articulate counter-argument video to the controversial Fortnine video. I do still practice counter-leaning, emergency braking and swerving a lot though. As a daily city traffic commuter, my tactics & strategy are adjusted for close-quarters combat. 😜
Been riding half my life, and in that first half, been down three times. Don't wanna go down again. In just the last year. Sitting at a stop sign in a puddle of oil. Fourth down. Going into a round about too fast with a half flat front tire. Stupid. Frame contact while making a tight u turn. Scary. Wife won't ride with me anymore. This is a great video. Gonna face my fears, keep my eyes up, and try some posture modifications. Thanks.
😂 my mom knows nothing about motorcycling but she has said she wants to see "chicken strips" on my tires. ❤🏍️
Well that's another video immediately going into the motorcycle training playlist As always awesome, thank you Dave.
Thank you
Great information as always. I try to implement the body position cues but when faced with some physical limitations it gets a bit frustrating knowing what you need to do and being unable to achieve it.
Counter leaning is a carry over from dirt & off road riding. Riding street speeds with neutral to counter leaned body position still leaves chicken (aka safety) strips in the bank. Scrubbing them off on the street while still needing to hang off the inside, sounds more like track speeds (and/or poor line choices) with minimal margin for error. Counter leaning does increase bike lean angle & that also = a tighter turn radius. All these body positions seem to have their place in certain situations. The key, for me, seems to be having the understanding & practice for comfort with deploying them all on the fly as required, under whatever circumstances we find ourselves in.
Thats exactly right. There are very few absolutes in motorcycling. Most things come down to context. But when we understand some core principles we can better know when to apply each technique.
"Les bandes de peur", in french.
It translates to "the fear strips", wich is close enough of theses "chicken strip"
A "bandage" in french, is the kind of strip you put to protect an injured part of a body. We don't do that to tyres :)
Great content, btw.
Thank you so much. I was afraid I remembered wrong, so I asked a friend with a degree in French (but not a rider) and then cross referenced with google translate. I wish I'd have known to ask you. Dur... It's such a brilliant little phrase!
You're a French voluntarist? Hah. Cool.
"Chicken strips" can also be a result of the tyres geometry. I was easily able to scrub right to the edge of my old rear tyre but on my new tyres (Metzeler Roadtec 02) they rear tyre is really flat through the middle and then steepens up a lot to the edge and I am yet to scrub it all the way to the edge. I have about 1.5-2cm of untouched tyre there. To be clear, I am not scrubbing my tyre to the edge at 200km/h, there just happens to be a road near where I live called the "Crown Range" that goes over a mountain pass between Wanaka and Queenstown in New Zealand. When you are going from Queenstown to Wanaka on that road there are heaps of super tight uphill switch backs so you can lean the bike down a lot even at relatively slow speeds.
Totally! Or bike geometry. And I know that road! My best mate lives in Omaru. We freaking love NZ and can't wait to get back.
@ Awesome! Maybe I’ll see you on the road here one day!
Dave another great video mate. Warm regards from Stuart, Perth Western Australia 👍
Oh thank you! We are getting a winter snow advisory tonight. I am envisou of the warmth in Perth right now!
Another school day Dave. I'll certainly try and reduce the size of the hems on my tyre as long as my brain joins the party. 🤔 🤓 🏍️
I learned the Total Control Intermediate Rider Course method and it changed my riding, by giving me the confidence I didn’t ave in corners. Unfortunately there is a RUclipsr that teaches the exact opposite! I don’t really worry about ‘chicken strips’ I seem to have them for quite awhile when I have new tires.
I really don't like the negative aspect of chicken strips. Both tires used as examples in this video were from both of Mrs CanyonChasers bikes. One she rides at the track and obviously has plenty of confidenc turning. The other is her street bike where she is conservative with lean angle in corners. A great example about how they are not a visual representation of skill or fear.
@@CanyonChasers Exactly!
If I could I would send you a thank you plack for this video, thanks Mr. DAVE.
Got rid of my fear by doing a ‘skills day’ on a closed circuit, amazed by the grip of modern tyres and the benefits of counter steering, what chicken strips😆. The instructors gave similar advice to yourself and I now can brake to the full limit of the tyre without thinking I’m going to crash. Twenty years later I’m still enjoying fast cornering with safety…
PS. Love the bike, just ordered a 2025 V4S after enjoying 10,000 miles on my V2S.
Lots of grip on that circuit I bet, but a bit of gravel on the open road at full lean and....Thats why its still risky.
I love it. The value of a track day to really learn and understand what we and the bike are capable of. So we don’t panic when we need to lean a bit more for some reason.
Great video. Still working on it....only have 30ish years in so far. :)
Nice roads you have there in Utah.
I understand that counter steering is and always will be the primary/most important tool for cornering. John Del Vecchio Cornering Confidence. Getting the body to inside, not down, but on the inside, allows faster cornering speeds with less lean/less risk. Even doing this from just the waist up makes a significant difference. Following this to the limit, that is getting a knee down at a Moto GP event. Another piece that really helped me was “rear wheel steering” from the moto gymkhana riders, glad you mentioned these techniques even though you didn’t cite the source in the same way. Turning hips and shoulders in the desired direction, pressing the outside knee up and into the tank was a game changer for me. At lower speeds, rear wheel steering is effective just by itself, less so at higher speeds. What I figured out by being aware of this aspect of my lower body, turning my hips and shoulders, I was allowing the bike to fully respond to the counter steering input. When I wasn’t getting weight to the inside, and not turning my hips and pressing the outside leg against of the bike, I was unintentionally introducing counter productive inputs to the bike, I was interfering with the bike fully responding to the counter steering input. My cornering speed, comfort and effectiveness has improved significantly without additional lean angle or risk, this give a greater margin that if a corner is misjudged, there is counter steering input and lean angle in reserve.
I love this! Yeah, I didn't mean to not cite the source because we like to look at what the best riders in the world (who aren't crashing) are doing. And they are all doing the same basic things.
Another fun thing about this kind of posture is that it does introduce a little but of pressing straight down on the inside handlebar, which by itself creates a natural countersteer and helps the bike tip in with less pressure.
@ It is nice to see channels open to the range of techniques. Earlier, I had reached out to another channel describing my experience with rear wheel steering in conjunction with counter steering, asking the individual if they could discuss it. Turns out he has a black belt in being an arrogant ass with a frail ego, responded that I didn’t know what I was talking about, that I was too stupid to understand that the only technique that works is counter steering and my sources were ignorant you tube hacks as opposed to him that was “actually a skilled rider and coach”. I would like to see more on the rear wheel steering technique if you are able to, I think it would help others maximize the benefits of counter steering.
Great video, thanks
I'm glad you liked it!
Awesome Video! Great points for sure. Beautiful Fall foliage. How are getting along with the Ducati? Gorgeous bike! Best!
As I recall you are located in Utah so I will assume you filmed this episode on roads in Utah. I really need to get to Utah; those roads look heavenly!
You've made many good videos, this one is excellent- thank you!
Question: I don't think I can get away with putting cones on the school near us, but they have parking stripes. Will using the corners (90 degrees) be helpful instead of a U-turn?
Absolutely be mindful of stripes, if cold or moist (or hot really) they can be slippy. A 90-degree might be a good place to start, but it's not enough time at lean to get the most out of the practice. Perhaps start at 90 and then add more corner as confidence/comfort grows.
It's very much a psychological limit. Pointing your chin and your zipper at the exit point - I'll have to remember that. Mentally, I'll try to "connect" my eyes to the exit point, like forming a virtual cord or rod through space between my head and the exit point, and then focus my body on "getting the bike out from under me" so I can lean into the turn. If I put my body into the turn first, it allows the bike to stay more upright. It sounds more dramatic than it looks, because all I really do is kinda lean my upper body into the turn. I never get a knee down, never go full motoGP. I'm on an ADV bike. But that's how I've been training myself to get into those turns a little more fully. I'll remember the chin & zipper posture.
I hear the logic but ... nature tells us something different. Animals of prey (leopards, cheetahs, lions, etc., ...) all adjust their heads by counter-leaning / counterbalancing to keep level while their body is all over the place. Birds of prey are the same. Even chickens (ever seen that video where a person holds a chicken by it's body and then moves it up and down yet the head remains in the same place?).
So I think it really is just about conditioning and repetition to remove the concerns and replace those subconscious fears with learned confidence. It's exactly the same with skiing (both getting over the fear and the physical geometry).
That's interesting you mentioned skiing 👍
I mean, we're doing the same thing. We're keeping our eyes level with the horizon and putting our focus on where we are going. Our head is level, our body and bike are not.
in French it is 'la bande de la peur' or fear strip. Bandage is more like band aid, well if one is feared to fall, then there are good chances that person is gong to fall and need band aid. Otherwise I am a great fan of what you od for the riders, these confirmed and beginning. you help a lot. Thank you bro
Thank you!! I wasn’t sure if I remembered correctly. I asked a friend who has a degree in French (but not a rider) and then Google translate. I wish I’d have known to ask you. It’s such a fantastic bit of jargon. Way more clever than “chicken strips”
Great advice, thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge with me. Where is that road at 2:12?
Thank you. That’s Bear Tooth Pass. It features heavily in this video. ruclips.net/video/ODaAhHgtM7w/видео.htmlsi=Jq1yIkKRUoaZIvTf
Is there any benefit to scrubbing out chicken strips in terms of breaking in the tire? I have some pretty thick ones, since I ride well within what I’m comfortable handling, but I wonder if it’d be worth doing some circles in a parking lot so that the margins are a bit grippier if I ever need to use them.
I personally try to minimize lean. I just adjust my speed and hang my body / weight my inside foot. I only lean the bike with counter steering after doing the other two.
Corning is most about speed management and going fast on a straight away to getting to the maintenance speed of a turn as you go into it. That's mostly about being good a breaking, knowing how the particular bike your riding handles corners at a particular speed, and less about how much you lean your bike.
You can take really sharp corners if you're good at slowing down.
few years ago... maybe 2-3 years back...i gained confidence to lean watching one of their videos about "trail braking". one day on a slippery rode during a rainy day i lowsided whilst leaninig in a curve and got scared ever since
Rain is usually cooler temps. Rain usually means oils come up out of the pavement (early on). If you lost traction early in the ride, your tires may not have been warm enough, that's besides the fact that in places where traffic frequents, a newly wet road is very hazardous due to oils.
If your tires are the proper kind for touring and running about (sports tourer tires), in good condition to remove water between the road and the rubber, you will have surprising traction in the rain (without the oil surface and after the tire is warm).
We want to be adaptable and adjustable. Adapting and adjusting based on the conditions. I absolutely slow waaaaaaaay down on a wet road. I'm trail braking, but even earlier and even lighter with even less pressure, and I'm absolutely doing everything possible to keep the bike as upright as possible because I have so much less grip.
Thanks 🤠
The biggest issue is places to practice greater lean it and no, carparks will never be it. LOL, started typing this before watching all the way through but there’s some practical info here.
Take a relatively innocuous bike with a very common tyre… Mt03 and Road 6. Set a relatively basic goal. No chicken strips at neutral body position lean.
Doing circles in a carpark on a 20 deg C day won’t put enough heat in the tyre to give you the grip needed to stop the front from pushing. You will crash before you get any real lean. You can only increase the lean by counter leaning. Or you can warm the tyres but you’re not putting enough into the tyres to keep them at temp. You can lower the pressure, but it won’t help much with the handling feel. That's my biggest beef with people telling people to go to a carpark. People see carparks as safe places but there's a genuinely a higher risk doing it there than doing it on a canyon road.
You need a location that presents a series of good corners with enough braking and acceleration to put and maintain temperature in the tyres. This generally means small tracks with small straights just long enough to allow body position change , lots of sweeping corners with varying, increasing radii. Sadly no one makes such a track, and thus everything is a compromise.
Some supermoto and kart tracks might fit this however some of them have tight radii turns that you physically cannot turn your head enough to look anywhere through the turn. They’re better than nothing though.
Damn you are lucky to have access to that slab of bitumen.
What are the best tires for a 2017 tuono v4? I mostly do commuting with occasional twisty roads. Currently have Michelin road 5s and am hoping for something a bit stickier
Angel GT2 are stickiest sport Touring tires, or maybe the Roadsmart 4. Those are both great
I understand that this would work on any bike. I have a wing with floor boards so not a peg so is the process the same or varied.?
Totally the same and you guys often reap even more benefits because you have less overall lean angle.
I teach our local highway patrol and they quickly fall in love with this and will be going quicker at the end of the day and rarely touching the floorboards. So faster with less risk. Win/win!
Please can you describe the sequence of body movements/postural changes from after the slowest point in the corner to standing the bike up with your body back in the midline. What I mean is how to smoothly and efficently get back up. I haven't found any decent description of this neither in books nor online. Weight on outside footpeg etc, ?
I should do a video about it. It’s pretty straightforward but quite important. We drop pit head to the inside and push the bike upright. We take away lean as we add throttle. In a racetrack scenario we basically want to be at WFO at the same time the bike is upright. So while not done abruptly, it’s done rather quickly.
Hi, I live here in UT, do you do private lessons? Thanks
My biggest fear is tire grip. I started riding the mid 60s when I had two lowsides and another low slide which saved. These were all due to the terrible tires of the day and road conditions. Wet road, diesel spill and sea water that washed over the roadway. With better tires two of the three wouldn't have happened. However to this day tire grip is my biggest concern and fear.
Haven't watched the video yet (just got to work), but Ryan/Fortnine recommended counterlean at low speeds, and leaning at high speeds (basically only on the track, you won't reach high enough speeds on public roads). Your thumbnail seems to recommend the opposite? (His video is called Motorcycle Riders - You're Leaning the Wrong Way).
It was clickbait.
@@Mudux Really? Ugh..
Leaning a motorcycle is very much dependent on circumstances and conditions. If you're looking for ONLY ONE WAY TO ALWAYS DO IT, then you're missing many other factors.
Assuming you're not afraid of anything, counter-leaning keeps the weight of your body over the contact patches, rather than away from the contact patches. That's the point of counterleaning; traction, and ability to react quickly to a rear skid. Mountain bikers do this, dirtbikers do this, road going bikers do this. All depends on conditions, confidence, purpose, and where.
My advice would be to watch the video before commenting. That seems like a good idea but you know you could just randomly comment on the thumbnail and that makes sense. 🙄
If you watch his video where he's talking about high speeds, he's going 50kph. 35mph. He's correct, although both of his video's on the topic are alarmingly misleading and lacking context. I've watched quite a few students crash right in front of me because they counterleaned when they should have taken away lean, and when I talk to them about it they've all said "But RF9 said..." Those video's are literally getting people hurt. Context is everything. There's a time and a place for both, A is not always better than B.
Looking at online discussions, when riders slide out in a turn, 90% of the time it's because they didn't look for gravel or other slippery surfaces.
Thats what they say, but in all my years of doing this, it's actually quite rare for the gravel to be the culprit. It's usually the panicked reaction before the gravel that causes the problem.
@@CanyonChasers I remember you have an excellent video on what to do when you encounter something slippery.
You're right, panic is a luxury we don't have on two wheels. We must keep our head cool when something scary happens, and if we can't do that, we probably shouldn't be on a bike.
I remember a RUclips crash video where the tire slid over something slippery in a turn. The bike was already stabilizing itself after the slippery spot, and would for sure have stayed up if the rider had done nothing.
Unfortunately, the rider hammered the brake, preventing the bike from stabilizing itself. And of course, just like you say, the rider thinks he fell because of something slippery, instead of blaming his panic response.
(Even so, if we have to lean further and/or brake in order to avoid a patch of gravel, we should definitely do that. And at this point, it's nice to know that the chicken strips are not zero, so that if the need arises, we have this option.)
Yes! Exactly! And to your point, I usually call chicken strips my "margin for error". Right?!?
@CanyonChasers It's called SR at California Superbike School which stands for Survival Reaponse. I always thought that was a silly thing to call it because if that's how you respond it doesn't result in Survival. I call them FIM Fear Induced Mistakes.
How do you set up u big u turn? I mean like 2 to 3 car parking ?
I never have the chicken strips because I'm a vegetarian! Hahahah! As always, another great description of an important topic. Thanks!
No fear on that pikes peak with 200/60 rear and lowered front until I forget that I don't have sport bike clearance and the right foot gets caught (because of the stupid 3/4 akra with its double pipes that ruin the foot position/ergos) in addition to regular outer toe slider grind. Then I get the fear of lack of ground clearance, at least it's not as bad as on the diavel or v100 mandello where I got into trouble in no time after being used to my tuono at the time.
On the 1200 it was the centerstand that pushed your foot off the peg. Haha!
@CanyonChasers yeah, I kinda wish I got bhp uk decat or something else instead. Haven't put the center stand on my v4, it's just sitting on a shelf since I have bad memories of it from my hyper.
Where is that parking lot? I need one of those! :) Nice vid. Lead with chin. Vision+ (site picture...really). Counterlean...terrifying to witness when we're coaching! Point your zipper...gold! No tight grip, no pressure on bars after input. I have riders slow down and just focus on their contact points to understand what needs to be modified and how fixing those things makes the bike lose 100#. Once students do that, they seem to be 80% of the way toward "good" (tiny adjustments with body). I used to ride with a guy who went through a few $400 sets of gloves each season... Please ditch the 360 camera...it isn't even close to what a rider sees and experiences. Chicken strips can also be that a person has only one bike for street and track... Thank you!
I'm not sure any camera shows what the rider see's. Even drone footage is misleading because it makes corners look sooooo mellow.
I was going to ask about the parking lot, too. I have trouble even finding one suitable for practicing slow speed maneuvers that I won’t get kicked out of in the LA area 😆
The Bandages of Fear my god did I spew my coffee all over!! 😂
How much attention do you give to the actual road surface as you're rolling through a corner? I struggle to pull my eyes away from every bump, crack, leaf, tar snake, etc... on the road, and I know it slows me down more than it should 😖 Is this just a matter of me needing to put more trust in my tires and suspension???
I put a TON of attention on the road surface. Thats a MAJOR concern for me. The technique for this is called "fast eyes" - I think I talk about it a lot in my last video about "over slowing". Basically we want to look up and scan back at the road surface then look up again as fast as we can. It's actually the thing I say to myself inside my helmet more than anything else. Fast eyes!
@@CanyonChasers Thanks for the reply. I'll go back and watch that video again, and I'll definitely be working on "fast(er) eyes" for the coming riding season!!!
There's an unconscious perception that people have when they see someone in a video riding at high lean in a corner that the viewer themselves has never ridden through.
The viewer subconsciously presumes that it's the first time the rider has gone through that corner when in reality it's highly likely that the rider has gone through that corner scores if not hundreds of times and knows it intimately.
Put the same rider on a road they've never ridden before and they wont ride it the same because they'll be scanning for everything with maximum attention.
If it's a road they're familiar with then they will be paying attention to what's different from the last time they rode through.
I’m from Hong Kong watching this video because I will be picking up my 200 hp+ S1000rr in two weeks time, and I haven’t ridden a big bike for over 10 years! I’m naturally very nervous especially with cornering because it’s such a big powerful bike (I bought it for its looks!) I’ve seen elsewhere on RUclips that counter balancing is one of the 3 or 4 cornering techniques. In this video seems you don’t encourage people to do so but instead lean with the bike in the same cornering direction. I’m a bit puzzled - appreciate if you could elaborate more - should we forget counterbalancing altogether?
Counterbalancing is over sold by riders who don’t fully understand the physics. It’s a technique that has value in slow speed maneuvers because at low speed in a parking lot we have a ton of mechanical grip and motorcycles must lean to change direction. But it quickly falls apart when the speed comes up or the grip goes down.
Fundamentally, high speed and low grip are the same thing. When we are going slow with lots of grip, nothing really matters, right. If you are riding on wet grass and needed to turn, would you counterlean? Of course not. You’d do everything you could to keep the bike upright with zero lean. We don’t train for ideal conditions. We train for what works when everything matters.
What is lateral? What is longitudinal?
Lateral. Font and back. Braking and Accelerating. Lateral. Side to side. Cornering.
Where and when do you teach courses.
Im in Canada but would love to take your courses!
I'm in Utah. Lots of opportunities from "I just want to do a trackday when I'm there to help out" to some much more structured schools. Links are in the description. :)
You know, you don’t need the ‘s after an = sign. = equals equals. Nice drone work.
Thank you for another great video. "Counter-leaning makes it easier to see beyond the corner" is a true statement for street riding though - obviously as opposed to hanging off because if you have a left turn followed almost immediately by a right, the bike will block your view of the next corner. That being said, one shouldn't be hanging off when street riding either.
The correct answer for almost every motorcycle question should begin wiht "it depends". So, not necessarily. Because the bike is leaning more, your head might actually be lower - even though it feels higher. However, in a fast left/right transition, the bike isn't going to be at lean for very long, so the risk is minimal. Thats a place where more of a swerve counterlean is going to be valuable.
We shouldn't be hanging off like motorgp riders on the street, to be sure, but we can rotate our body into a corner and reduce lean, while leaving our bum on the seat, and give ourselves more grip to work with. It's not that A is better than B. It's that it all comes down to context. The good rider knows when to deploy each technique. The problem with counterleaning is that it has been way oversold with misleading evidence. It's a valuable skill but it quickly becomes less useful when the speed comes up or the grip goes down.
@@CanyonChasers "It depends" goes without saying. I sometimes lean with the bike and counterlean at other times going through the same corner. I've never heard of swerve counterlean, so happy to discover something new to learn!
Part of the "problem" with counterleaning as a fad (I think) is that the rider doesn't feel
like they are leaning that far, but the bike is. Therefore the risk perceived by the rider is less than the actual risk which might, especially for inexperienced riders, cause them to be overconfident and not realize how close they are to the bike's or tyres' limit.
Thank you for your response, and now I'm off to learn what swerve counterlean is. And while I have you, another thanks for a trail braking video from about 7 years ago. I still remember the words "what are you gonna do, add more coast?"
So, a swerve counterlean is basically what you are probably already doing - you keep your body mostly upright and let the bike lean underneath you. Because you are doing a fast(ish) left-right transition, there is little benefit (and a whole lot of effort) to try to move your body to the inside on each side in rapid succession.
But as riders, we need to recognize the limit to how far we can push it in this situation because we don't want to run out of lean angle or grip, right?
@@CanyonChasers Oh yeah, especially in the dirt. I just didn't know the name for it. I make a conscious effort to keep it at about 80-85% max because you never know what might be around the next bend. Thanks again!
I have one silly suggestion to aid new riders understanding of this video. You might consider wearing a jacket with a zipper, in order to better illustrate what you mean when you say “point your zipper”. Silly, I know… Just not sure the really new guys will know exactly what you mean.
Hmh. You know. Thats some solid feedback. I honestly didn't really consider that. Thank you.
How did "I" learn to lean?
I got a puncture... and had to replace the rear tyre!
The difference was so pronounced that I went back and got a matching front the next weekend.
What was CAUSING the FEAR of LEANING, was the LACK OF GRIP!
Once the new tyres were on, I felt confident enough to tackle a long very twisty road that would make Americans poo themselves... and because the new tyres had grip, I could push them harder than I ever could on the Factory fitted tyres made in India (MRF) and being able to push on them allowed them to hear up and give me a level of grip I had never felt before!
the fear quickly changed from "I don't have enough grip to corner at this speed, it feels like it will wash out" to "Oh god, how close is my foot to the ground?"
The fear is NOT always mental... but it IS always a response to something MECHANICAL!
If you can't feel grip, you know you can't feel grip. and you don't push beyond what you can feel!
when you get grip, you test it... you look for the point where you start to feel it diminishing!
and if it goes from strong grip to "gone" you will never push that hard again... and that is a RESPONCE to something MECHANICAL!
Coupon code doesn't work.😢
I dont really know why americans are so obsessed with leaning into the turn/hanging-off at nearly every time, do you only have fast wide open "turns" like you are on a racetrack? Because its the opposite of a safe riding technique if you dont have full visibility through the turn.
Lean = risk..., you know whats also risky? hanging off into the turn, leading to bad vision, slower reaction time and maneuverability and feel because you are not as connected to the bike. Counterleaning or neutral leaning (with the bike) are still the safest techniques for twisty roads, sure if you know the road and have full visilibity through the turn you can do some hang-off but it shouldnt be the main technique.
Ryan of Fortnite has a good video about that.
The correct answer to almost every motorcycle question should begin with “it depends”. RF9 wasn’t exactly wrong but he offered no context making those videos exceedingly misleading. The number of riders I’ve watched crash right in front of me when they counterleaned when they should have taken away lean is depressingly high. When I talk to them about it they say “but Ryan said to counterlean”. Those videos are literally getting people hurt. There’s is a time for both. But as the speed comes up or the grip goes down, counter leaning becomes increasingly less valuable.
Nice hat! While I'm happy that this indicates an awareness that there ARE actually places outside of California, it's too bad that you insist on CANYONS. We don't have those in New York State; but we sure got some tasty green mountain roads.. without the barren dust and rocks. Come on out.
Oh man, I'd love to! You guys have some brilliant riding out there!
@@CanyonChasers Catskill Mtns, Adirondacks, Mohawk Valley, Southern Tier, Delaware River, Hudson Highlands, Atlantic Ocean... then there's New England. But alas, not one damn "canyon" anywhere.
I like to lean, much comfortable with bigger tyres,but the road not always clean.
What if it seems the curve will never end and you're already in the line of oncoming traffic?
Speed equals radius. If we are running wide, into oncoming traffic and we need to tighten our line? What is our best option? Squeezing (not grabbing) the front brake.
Slowly close throttle and apply brakes. Radius equals mph
Totally unrelated but... what helmet is that?
get good on a disposable bike with good street tires on it. Dual sports are indestructible, but those square dual sport tires will MESS YOU UP and are dangerous. Shortcutting a corner into oncoming traffic is a BAD Day. You can't be fearless if the cost of new fairings or scratches bother you. Fearless is where you want to be. You will drop your bike, and several times to get good.
difference in "body lean" to "Bike Lean"... this is something SPORT bike riders ASSUME is the IDENTICAL for ALL motorcycles... NOT all Motorcycles are designed the same way, they DO NOT handle the same way!
A V-strom for example has a very different Ballance to an 8R. you have to lean the bike a different amount in the same corner at the same speed and line, if you have the Vstrom stood up too much like you would do with an 8R while hanging off the inside. IT WILL NOT TURN. you have to lean the Vstrom over MORE than the 8R and that means less angle of your upper body!
I Dare you to try riding a Vstrom 800 (with the exact same engine as the 8R) the same way you ride an 8R and see if you stay out of Hospital!
How come counter leaning dangerous?? Sometimes in a tight corner coming tighter at slow speed the counter lean is the only thing making corner. Especially on parking lot training tight 8's...
It’s not so much that’s it’s dangerous, but more that in some situations it increases our risk.
We treat speed and low grip effectively the same. The faster we’re going the closer we are to the edge of grip.
Counterleaning is awesome when we are going slow _and_ we have a lot of mechanical grip. Outside of that it’s risky because the tire is more likely to slide laterally. Something that may be desirable in some situations, like dirt bikes or flat track. But massively undesirable in others, right?
But now imagine you are riding on wet grass. Do you want to counterlean now? Of course not. You want to keep the bike as upright as possible.
Same thing. Reducing lean isn’t something we save for extreme speeds, we can reduce lean and reduce risk at any speed.
@CanyonChasers sure it depends on the bike type and environment conditions, on most of the time it should be just fine for regular rider.
As a newbie biker, I've learned this in school and using on road as needed. Eg. last resort at trailing into the corner and maintaining the speed, then realizing it's getting tighter and don't want to brake in the corner already at lean, then I counter lean/steer it a bit further to make the corner line out.
For example at track days with more speed I'm fully leaned and scraping footpegs, so I'm moving body weight in to the corner to reduce the angle.
What I'm trying to say is, modern road bikes and good tyres already have enough grip to make impressive lean angles, it's the breaking that is dangerous (and objects on road). Also, speed does not kill, deceleration or stopping does IMHO:)
Similar to your analogy, I've been several times off the track on the grass at a angle and we're not suppose to brake, even upright so they said.
Its not "bandages of fear", its "bands of fear" as in a thin strip of material around something. Not nonsense
Thank you so much. I was afraid I remembered wrong, so I asked a friend with a degree in French (but not a rider) and then cross referenced with google translate. I wish I'd have known to ask you. Dur... It's such a brilliant little phrase!
In my experience, If you understand how to corner well but still unable to use all the tread naturally then its definitely your suspension isnt setup correctly
Sometimes. It could also be geometry or even tire choice. Some tires are more flat. Some more pointy, etc.
Funny enough on the track bike with a 120/70 front tire there are always wide strips of unused rubber. With the 125/70 no more chicken strips.
Why do motocops use counter lean?
For high speed stuff, because that’s what they were taught. When I’ve done contract work with highway patrol motors we work pretty hard to get them to stop and they are always amazed by how much quicker they can go while feeling like they have more control.
Try not to look at motor cops as the shining example of professional riding. The vast majority of them are not especially good riders (outside of parade drills). The percentage of officers injured in high speed pursuits is actually quite high. For many, it’s just something they do for a few years for promotion points. Many of them never ride a motorcycle again once they get promoted.
Fortunately for our local highway patrol, we had an officer get into racing thinking he would clean up. He was a back marker. He quickly realized why and worked really hard to update their training. Which is when I got involved.
@ thank you for the explanation! But yes, they will probably always win slow races!
Indeed they will. It's impressive! But also, they don't care if they drop their bike. I've attended one of their training programs. Those bikes are laying on the ground as much as they are being ridden.
@@CanyonChasersThanks for the insight on this comment. Years ago, I got a ticket riding canyon, admittedly going a little too fast but was leaning in all the corners. The CHP that followed me berated me on my riding, blasting me for leaning when in his view I shouldn't have..blah blah. Telling me I am riding like a noob, which I wasn't, in fact at that point I already taken YCRS twice. At that time I didn't know better and ding my confidence quite a bit because I was holding CHP riders thinking they might know better.. based on your comments, guess this probably wasn't the case. Good to know now after all these years
Neve Campbell... 😍
Sorry I can't find a place to do 30ft circles here never mind an alien landing pad 😂
It was a bit of a cheat. That was a skid pad at a racetrack so I could run the drone without it crashing into any light poles or power lines.
Just drive to your local desert and look out for a tarmac patch the size of your city 😂
@@MaxPowerFilthcrud seriously tgere are no tsrmac patches. No one tarmacs something they ain't using. The bypa3road left uncompleted some years ago was best best but those days are over. Its all getting done now. I even looked on satellite map lol.
"La bande de peur" (fear strip), not "les bandages de peur" ;)
Fear on the street is good. A good street rider isn't a fast rider... It's a safe and smart one. If you're trying to push yourself to lean more on the street you're probably not being safe or smart.
Exactly right. We shoudn't be pushing on the street, but sometimes the unexpected nature of public roads requires it of us.
11:52 or maybe they take the risk on a track.
One thing that really was made clear to us riders from the head coach from the advanced training course I went on, if you actually need to hang off the bike like a monkey to safely get around a corner at legal road speed limits zones - you are going too bloody fast unless your riding in extreme wind conditions which means hanging like a monkey is a safer option at times then normal countersteer leaning cornering.
That head coach for that course was a retired motorcycle officer riding instuctor for the Uk police as well as a urgent blood courier in his free time, try keeping up with a rider like that without good training yourself and you find out fast just how bad a rider you are even with years of riding experience. No hanging off the bike like a monkey in the corners with riders like this, yet they're super smooth, effciently bloody fast in city & open road speeds, their trust in their tyres & bikes is really good because they actually make the effort to understand the limitions of it.
The up shot from that training I went thru is simple but profound, there is only two situations when you'll ever see me going hanging monkey style while riding, in extreme wind conditions only to counter balence windforce effects, the other is when traveling over 150kph average speed on track. Other wise it's good countersteer leaning technique while riding city & open road with other road users and yes you can travel effciently & safely bloody fast doing so, if it's good for the police & other government agencys that use motorcycles as rapid response units around the world it's not to be laughed at or taken lightly.
Having no chicken strips from track racing is understandable & even acceptable on a modern bike with modern generation tyres, no chicken strips if all they're doing is open road riding only is a sure sign of a crazed monkey speed demon who doesn't give a flying fecking shit about anyone but themselves.
Leaning to the inside isn't about speed. It's about reducing lean angle.
@@apsalar_coruscan, have you ever watched the youtube videos of motorcycle police doing motorcycle gymkhana competitions, thats what you call trust in your tyres & bike and good training.
Riders with good counter steer leaning technique don't need to hang off the bike to get around corners safely and with plenty of tyre tread in contact on the road because they have learnt their bike and that makes one hell of a beneficial difference to one's riding abilty in the corners. Sadly most riders don't even bother to learn or practice how to ride their bike to it's full safe cornering potential, hence why riders still need to hang off the bike like a monkey when they don't actually have too.
Counter steer leaning technique works for both safe speed tarseal & gravel riding, while hanging monkey off the bike is a real quick way of crashing while riding gravel, motogp level riders a known to ride motocross to improve their riding abilities at speed in the corners on the track, sadly motogp skills don't do the same for motocross cornering abilities.
@@lyellharrington7260 They're going slow with excellent grip.
Nothing matters when you're going slow or the grip level is high.
Wby on earth would I train a technique that only works when speed are low or grip is high?
@@apsalar_coruscan, YES I can ride hanging monkey/knee down when I need to at high or low speeds but the reality is you don't really need to for 99.9% percent of your riding time for normal open road or city riding be it gravel or tarseal. Did you actually read what I wrote about the two situations when I would need to use a hanging monkey style to get around corners in the first place - pay full attention to the second riding situation I wrote or did you shut your brain down for the whole original comment.
Just because some youtuber who teaches at Champschool which is tracked based speed training says to hang off the bike to get around a corner safely and yes there are other youtubers who are fully trained instructors as well who have mentioned the youtuber of this video and others from the USA for reasons that aren't fully complimenty for safety reasons in the realworld riding techniques situations. Strangely enough I rather take the training advice from a proper full on motorcycle police officer who is a fully credited motorcycle training instructor for the police than any youtuber, and not hanging off the bike like a monkey is his normal riding style for city & open road use then it's good for any rider.
Leave the no chicken strip stuff for the track and it controled enviroment not the open road.
@lyellharrington7260 why don't you read one of his reply earlier about CHP officer training he was involved in and his thought on their riding ability before posting such stupid crap about Dave being RUclipsr only teaching fast track riding technique and not know what is talking about when it comes to leaning.. etc. Better yet take YCRS yourself and see how this instructors humble you to oblivion..
I’m more afraid of going off of a cliff!!🤣
Never seen so much empty tarmac anywhere in Europe 😂
NGL, I used after effects to remove some cars in some of the shots - also, we typically tape on Tuesday mornings.
My scooter's tank is underneath the seat so I can't grip it 🙂
Press down with your feet instead. It’s surprisingly similar.
Mick Doohan used counter leaning
Wasn't that because of a leg injury he had?
I think he would only do that on one side.
Mick Doohan counter leaned because of an injury that forced him to counter lean, not because it was a better technique
@velcrofishsticks6002 i never heard that before, thank you 👍👍
Sorta. He's arguably one of the greatest of all time. I even got to meet him once. I'm a huge fan, but this is often misquoted for the wrong effect. He suffered a major leg injury and had virtually no strenght in one leg.
He didn't win becuase he used counter-leaning. He won despite using counter-leaning.
Wtf is a "sit bone"