If you didn't record in mid side to start with you can just convert your standard stereo recording into a mid side recording or use a plug in to do this and eq and mix as if you had recorded in mid side. The benefit of mid side is being able to record stereo without a matched pair. As long as you have a figure 8 mic for the sides you can use a cardiod of a completely different microphone for the mid. And that can be fun.
Hi. Thanks for your awesome videos. In this case, as I understand it, at the beginning both mics' recordings are in-phase, right? Then we duplicate the Side track, hard pan left and right, and invert one of them, which essentially means there is a channel which is always out of phase with the other two, including Mid channel. let's say we inverted the channel that we hard panned right. Now, any sound that comes from the right side of the Figure-8 mic will be present on both of our Side channels equally, with the difference that the right one is inverted. Hence, the positive signal of the Mid and the inverted signal of the Right Side Channel cancel each other, while the positive signal of the Mid and positive signal of the left add up. Therefore, the sound that was produced on the right side, would be louder on the left channel (in-phase channel). As I see it, and have encountered in my own attempts to record using mid-side technique, the channel we invert will always be quieter than the other one. No matter the sound comes from the left side or right side of the F8 mic, it will constantly be louder on the in-phase channel. Also in the video (4:00 ) you describe, perfectly well, what happens to the in-phase signal (left) when there source is at the left side, but regarding the other channel and the sound that comes from the right side of the mic, you mention "the exact opposite happens". I, unfortunately, fail to see anything opposite there, and I believe the exact same thing happens there, because the left channel contains the signal coming from the right and it is in fact in phase with the Mid signal, while it is present in the right channel out of phase. So, I assume the sound from the right would also be louder on the left channel, instead of the right channel. I appreciate the time you put into this
What if instead of using a figure 8 polar pattern for the side(s), I used two large diaphram cardiods, one facing each side? Then I would not have to change the phase, just link the two side mics for ease of adjusting the side with the mid cardioid. Wouldn't this actually be better for steroe sound? How about when converting to mono?
The problem with that is that those 2 mics that make the side part are not placed in EXACTLY the same spot, that already start to create incongruity between the signals, this is only going to be accentuated as no two microphones sound exactly the same in real life, the more incongruity between the signals, the less they cancel each other out, and as explained in the video. You need the cancellation for this to work That's why ribbon mics are regarded as the best for mid side, not only there is no problem of having 2 diagrams in slightly different positions because there is only one. But also it will always sound exactly like itself in a given moment. It will always cancel itself out perfectly. I hope I was clear enough, and not too late, have nice day!
One thing I've never understood about M-S (but which I think you indirectly touched on in the video) is how to use this technique when multitrack recording MULTIPLE sources/instruments. I ask because every tutorial I've ever watched or read on this subject focuses on recording a single instrument, where the cardiod mic is pointed directly at the source. If the Mid mic is always panned Center, and the Sides are panned hard L & R, how does one subsequently position instruments in the a stereo field during mixing? Is this accomplished by simply situating the players/instruments at various spots in an arc in front of the mic array during recording? That seemed to be what you were depicting when you showed a snare drum being placed in varying spots (during the explanation of the electronics involved). Thank you :)
Is the hard panning done before the signal enters the recorder or afterwards with playback? I didn´t quite get why polarity is inverted. Would there be comb filtering without the inversion?
How does the side mic know which side the sound is coming from if the sound sources from both sides are recorded to a single mono track? I thought this technique only gives you an illusion of a stereo field that doesnt allow to point out the location of sound sources in the scene
@@AudioUniversity It's just that I can't really hear much of a difference when I use the mid-side function on pluggins that have it, like some mastering plugins from Waves. Cool that you're planning to make that video!
but aren’t the side channels already phase inverted while recording? i read that bi-directional microphones channels are phase inverted. is it one diaphragm? or two? If it’s one single diaphragm picking up both sides then it has to be phase inverted while recording
@@AudioUniversity so the bi-directional audio recording is a mono signal. it’s a summed audio mono recording. i was confused. i thought it was a stereo signal. duh. yes. then you phase invert the copy.
@johnviera3884 Yes. That’s right. A bidirectional mic typically only has one output. Some mics, like the Austrian Audio OC 818 or Lewitt LCT 640 TS, will have dual output - one for each side.
Is there a way to split Figure8 microphone in 2 channels on an analog mixer? I need to get this same result without using digital post production in any way.
Have a great Sunday! I talk just from my amateur point of view, but I have some concerns regarding this technique. I must confess I have never applied it, so I talk from a theoretical side and it has to do with the way the technique creates stereo: for example, as you show in 4:05, sounds arriving from the left are heard high in the left channel, and high but inverted polarity in the right channel. For proper stereo effect I would expect in the right channel one hears same polarity but less volume and maybe very light delay. I know it is the way the technique creates some space, but sometimes, when you have same sound with inverted polarity in left and right channel, some weird effects are to be heard. I remember for example this video from Ian Shepherd showing a mix where the guitar had this and indeed the guitar sounded kind of weird ruclips.net/video/J8lR2j2iWXI/видео.html He doesn’t know why the guitar was mixed this way but shows later how he fix it (in very interesting way, by the way). Sorry the long comment, but I would love to read your thoughts and opinion about these “concerns”.
In this case (because the microphone elements are coincident), there will be no delay between left and right - only a level difference. This prevents the comb filtering that would occur if the same signals were combined at a slight delay.
@@AudioUniversity yes, of course. Actually I wasn’t meaning that with this technique I would expect some light delay, I was referring to what I would expect as a “normal” stereo effect. The “concerns” I mention are about the inverted polarity (of a same signal) in left and right channels, respectively, that tend to sound a little weird in some contexts, for example in the guitar in the video I linked. Maybe the mix of left and right channels (8 pattern mic) with the signal of the center mic avoids this “weirdness”. The example with the guitar was maybe just one mono signal duplicated and panned L and R in each track, but without a third signal present in both channels.
In Mid Side, there will never be a positive polarity on one side and a negative polarity on the other. The mid mic ensures that both sides will be in polarity, just at varying levels. Does that make sense?
@@AudioUniversity I think I got it. There was something I was overseeing: let’s imagine the side recording has at an instant a positive peak in the L channel, so it has a negative peak in the R channel. When you mix both with the signal from the center channel (similar to those, though not identical), you get a total signal with a positive peak in both channels, but in the L one is higher than in the R, so they are not inverted anymore. What I was overseeing was actually the effect that causes the mixing with the center signal, that allows this. Man, I was thinking about the technique for a lot of time, wondering if would be good or not and now I understand. As an engineer I tend to think in terms of superposition to separate things and so I landed with those “concerns”. The mix allows the magic to happen. So I think if you rise too much the level of the L and D with respect to the center channel, there you could land in these issues I was referring to. So far you balance reasonably the L and R you get the effect properly. One last thing though: with mid side you can’t discriminate if a sound with more intensity comes from the right or from the left, I would say. Or maybe I am again overseeing another thing. Thank you for your answers!
Never mind. Regarding my last reflection, I guess with the technique you get different volume depending on direction the sound comes from and that is (I guess) due to the way the 8 pattern mic works. So you get a different polarity if a same sound is captured from the left or form the right and this way, when you apply the technique you emphasize or attenuate the wave in each channel depending on direction the sound comes from. So, now I think mid side technique is a lot more powerful than I thought when I wake up today. I need an 8 pattern mic!
Hi.. Great video... Do we need two of the same mic (with multi patterns) for mid and sides for a true mid side recording? Or two different mics can be used. Also how does it depend on diaphragm sizes? Can it be done with a small diaphragm for sides and a large diaphragm for mid?
If you use 1 cardioid for the mid and one with a figure 8 pattern, that's all that's needed, 2 mics. They could be the same model mic if it has a switchable pattern including figure 8 and cardioid, hyper-cardioid, etc. meaning there's a front pickup lobe. However, the mics can be different models as well, as long as the 2 pickup patterns needed are covered by separate mics. And if you run your mixer channels like Kyle showed, it'll work just fine.
Honestly i think three cardioids will sound better probably (+auto align 2 mby). Flipping polarity on one of lr of the same effective sound source is unnatural asf
If you didn't record in mid side to start with you can just convert your standard stereo recording into a mid side recording or use a plug in to do this and eq and mix as if you had recorded in mid side. The benefit of mid side is being able to record stereo without a matched pair. As long as you have a figure 8 mic for the sides you can use a cardiod of a completely different microphone for the mid. And that can be fun.
thank you thank you i really didnt understand how it would make the left channel louder in stereo until you explained it
Thank you for this great video!!! So brilliantly and concisely explained. Amazing work!
Hi. Thanks for your awesome videos. In this case, as I understand it, at the beginning both mics' recordings are in-phase, right?
Then we duplicate the Side track, hard pan left and right, and invert one of them, which essentially means there is a channel which is always out of phase with the other two, including Mid channel.
let's say we inverted the channel that we hard panned right. Now, any sound that comes from the right side of the Figure-8 mic will be present on both of our Side channels equally, with the difference that the right one is inverted. Hence, the positive signal of the Mid and the inverted signal of the Right Side Channel cancel each other, while the positive signal of the Mid and positive signal of the left add up. Therefore, the sound that was produced on the right side, would be louder on the left channel (in-phase channel).
As I see it, and have encountered in my own attempts to record using mid-side technique, the channel we invert will always be quieter than the other one. No matter the sound comes from the left side or right side of the F8 mic, it will constantly be louder on the in-phase channel.
Also in the video (4:00 ) you describe, perfectly well, what happens to the in-phase signal (left) when there source is at the left side, but regarding the other channel and the sound that comes from the right side of the mic, you mention "the exact opposite happens". I, unfortunately, fail to see anything opposite there, and I believe the exact same thing happens there, because the left channel contains the signal coming from the right and it is in fact in phase with the Mid signal, while it is present in the right channel out of phase. So, I assume the sound from the right would also be louder on the left channel, instead of the right channel.
I appreciate the time you put into this
Good explanation, thanks
Well explained. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching.
best explainations !!! appreciated
Thanks 🫂
What if instead of using a figure 8 polar pattern for the side(s), I used two large diaphram cardiods, one facing each side? Then I would not have to change the phase, just link the two side mics for ease of adjusting the side with the mid cardioid. Wouldn't this actually be better for steroe sound? How about when converting to mono?
The problem with that is that those 2 mics that make the side part are not placed in EXACTLY the same spot, that already start to create incongruity between the signals, this is only going to be accentuated as no two microphones sound exactly the same in real life, the more incongruity between the signals, the less they cancel each other out, and as explained in the video. You need the cancellation for this to work
That's why ribbon mics are regarded as the best for mid side, not only there is no problem of having 2 diagrams in slightly different positions because there is only one. But also it will always sound exactly like itself in a given moment.
It will always cancel itself out perfectly.
I hope I was clear enough, and not too late, have nice day!
One thing I've never understood about M-S (but which I think you indirectly touched on in the video) is how to use this technique when multitrack recording MULTIPLE sources/instruments. I ask because every tutorial I've ever watched or read on this subject focuses on recording a single instrument, where the cardiod mic is pointed directly at the source. If the Mid mic is always panned Center, and the Sides are panned hard L & R, how does one subsequently position instruments in the a stereo field during mixing? Is this accomplished by simply situating the players/instruments at various spots in an arc in front of the mic array during recording? That seemed to be what you were depicting when you showed a snare drum being placed in varying spots (during the explanation of the electronics involved). Thank you :)
I invert the polarity of the one side copy, then pan.
I just find it takes too long to set up and fuss with. Just my thoughts. Aside from that, you did a good job making this video.
Have to mention here pan law of the daw!
Is the hard panning done before the signal enters the recorder or afterwards with playback?
I didn´t quite get why polarity is inverted. Would there be comb filtering without the inversion?
If I have dedicated left and right stereo room mics would this technique even be worth doing?
How does the side mic know which side the sound is coming from if the sound sources from both sides are recorded to a single mono track? I thought this technique only gives you an illusion of a stereo field that doesnt allow to point out the location of sound sources in the scene
How to convert 4 channel amplifier in mono block🙏 please help
When I try to do Mid/Side the channel with the out of phase side is always quieter.
What about mid-side mixing?
I plan to make a video on that in the future, but the same principles apply.
@@AudioUniversity It's just that I can't really hear much of a difference when I use the mid-side function on pluggins that have it, like some mastering plugins from Waves. Cool that you're planning to make that video!
but aren’t the side channels already phase inverted while recording? i read that bi-directional microphones channels are phase inverted.
is it one diaphragm? or two?
If it’s one single diaphragm picking up both sides then it has to be phase inverted while recording
When you copy the single signal that comes from the side mic, it will be an exact copy. That's why you invert the polarity on one of the copies.
@@AudioUniversity so the bi-directional audio recording is a mono signal. it’s a summed audio mono recording.
i was confused. i thought it was a stereo signal. duh.
yes. then you phase invert the copy.
@johnviera3884 Yes. That’s right. A bidirectional mic typically only has one output. Some mics, like the Austrian Audio OC 818 or Lewitt LCT 640 TS, will have dual output - one for each side.
@@AudioUniversity thanks for your replies. Subbed
What is the brand of the co-inident microphone holder "bar" at 5.11mins? Looks interesting. Thanks
JM Acoustic Mic Mounts: jmacoustic.com/Products/XY/xy.html
Is there a way to split Figure8 microphone in 2 channels on an analog mixer? I need to get this same result without using digital post production in any way.
you could possibly make a custom cable, a Y cable with one of the sides flipped in polarity. Im not sure it would work but its worth a try
use a patch pannel
Have a great Sunday! I talk just from my amateur point of view, but I have some concerns regarding this technique. I must confess I have never applied it, so I talk from a theoretical side and it has to do with the way the technique creates stereo: for example, as you show in 4:05, sounds arriving from the left are heard high in the left channel, and high but inverted polarity in the right channel. For proper stereo effect I would expect in the right channel one hears same polarity but less volume and maybe very light delay. I know it is the way the technique creates some space, but sometimes, when you have same sound with inverted polarity in left and right channel, some weird effects are to be heard. I remember for example this video from Ian Shepherd showing a mix where the guitar had this and indeed the guitar sounded kind of weird ruclips.net/video/J8lR2j2iWXI/видео.html He doesn’t know why the guitar was mixed this way but shows later how he fix it (in very interesting way, by the way). Sorry the long comment, but I would love to read your thoughts and opinion about these “concerns”.
In this case (because the microphone elements are coincident), there will be no delay between left and right - only a level difference. This prevents the comb filtering that would occur if the same signals were combined at a slight delay.
@@AudioUniversity yes, of course. Actually I wasn’t meaning that with this technique I would expect some light delay, I was referring to what I would expect as a “normal” stereo effect. The “concerns” I mention are about the inverted polarity (of a same signal) in left and right channels, respectively, that tend to sound a little weird in some contexts, for example in the guitar in the video I linked. Maybe the mix of left and right channels (8 pattern mic) with the signal of the center mic avoids this “weirdness”. The example with the guitar was maybe just one mono signal duplicated and panned L and R in each track, but without a third signal present in both channels.
In Mid Side, there will never be a positive polarity on one side and a negative polarity on the other. The mid mic ensures that both sides will be in polarity, just at varying levels. Does that make sense?
@@AudioUniversity I think I got it. There was something I was overseeing: let’s imagine the side recording has at an instant a positive peak in the L channel, so it has a negative peak in the R channel. When you mix both with the signal from the center channel (similar to those, though not identical), you get a total signal with a positive peak in both channels, but in the L one is higher than in the R, so they are not inverted anymore. What I was overseeing was actually the effect that causes the mixing with the center signal, that allows this. Man, I was thinking about the technique for a lot of time, wondering if would be good or not and now I understand. As an engineer I tend to think in terms of superposition to separate things and so I landed with those “concerns”. The mix allows the magic to happen. So I think if you rise too much the level of the L and D with respect to the center channel, there you could land in these issues I was referring to. So far you balance reasonably the L and R you get the effect properly.
One last thing though: with mid side you can’t discriminate if a sound with more intensity comes from the right or from the left, I would say. Or maybe I am again overseeing another thing.
Thank you for your answers!
Never mind. Regarding my last reflection, I guess with the technique you get different volume depending on direction the sound comes from and that is (I guess) due to the way the 8 pattern mic works. So you get a different polarity if a same sound is captured from the left or form the right and this way, when you apply the technique you emphasize or attenuate the wave in each channel depending on direction the sound comes from.
So, now I think mid side technique is a lot more powerful than I thought when I wake up today. I need an 8 pattern mic!
Hi.. Great video...
Do we need two of the same mic (with multi patterns) for mid and sides for a true mid side recording? Or two different mics can be used.
Also how does it depend on diaphragm sizes? Can it be done with a small diaphragm for sides and a large diaphragm for mid?
ruclips.net/video/WutTY25fj-g/видео.html :)
If you use 1 cardioid for the mid and one with a figure 8 pattern, that's all that's needed, 2 mics. They could be the same model mic if it has a switchable pattern including figure 8 and cardioid, hyper-cardioid, etc. meaning there's a front pickup lobe. However, the mics can be different models as well, as long as the 2 pickup patterns needed are covered by separate mics.
And if you run your mixer channels like Kyle showed, it'll work just fine.
✊🏾❤️🚀
Upside down
Honestly i think three cardioids will sound better probably (+auto align 2 mby). Flipping polarity on one of lr of the same effective sound source is unnatural asf