This is hands down some of the most informative audio engineering content on RUclips. It's college level thinking for free... Electrical Audio ladies and gentlemen
Holy shit, me from seven months ago, maybe you should've been learning instead of giggling. Future you nearly just purchased TWO identical figure 8 mics for no good reason! 🤦♂️ ...and hey, while I'm here: DON'T LIFT AND TWIST!!!! Guess who has no insurance and ends up looking like an asshole every day at work hobbling around on a cane?!? 🤬
@@Rompler_Rocco damn! really sorry to hear that. wish the u.s. healthcare system wasn't completely fucked all to shit… i did a number on my back through poor lifting form some years ago (luckily not _too_ severe, and i got access to physiotherapy and meds on the nhs, because britbong. just as well, bc there's no way i would have been able to afford treatment on my warehouse worker wage otherwise). take care, and i hope you're on the mend (or at least have found a use for that spare fig-8!)
I'm gonna send RUclips a Christmas card for putting this video in my recommendations. What a great technique and demo. Thanks for the video and the laughs.
I've been recently exploring mid-side recording with outboard hardware stuff and this is the most practical and informative context I've yet encountered after slamming through tons of other videos. Thank you very much, you've grown my knowledge by tons.
Thank you for explaining about the "right/left-leaning" effect. I was hearing that in my recordings and could tell why it was happening. This is the first place I've seen it explained. Thanks!
Man I've been testing consoles for a while now and to test the phase switch I do the same thing to cancel one channel out when they are at equal attenuation but never thought of using it to get my side mics equal like that Great Tip!
I’m here for this - you just made my year! 2020 was worth it! - in all seriousness- good to see you guys back at it! Much love and good vibes (phase corrected of course)
The Zoom H6 field recorder contains a capsule with the mid side mic in a small capsule with very close orientation for very little time delay phase shifting. The side mic is bi-polar for excellent stereo pickup. The recorder has the processing matrix for generating stereo, or mid side channels. This is excellent for stereo for video or FM broadcast as Mono and L-R side is direct from the recorder.
Same for the Shure MV88+. You can choose to record the raw MS signal and decode it yourself or have the DSP take care of it, and you get to set some parameters.
Thank you, this was great. I learned something new. Can you make a video comparing Mid-Side to other stereo mic techniques like XY? I'd love to hear the difference in how the drums sound.
It would be tricky to compare mid-side to XY because mid-side inherently leaves some decisions up to the engineer, namely, how wide to make the stereo image (the balance between the "mid" and the "side").
You dudes rock. This is only the 2nd vid I've seen so far ( I just subscribed about 45 mins ago after seeing the 1st vid.) You guys are great instructors & I love the content. That opening tho...🤘😂🤣😂❗
I hear the sereo effect just fine using either headphones or my regular system. I tried both and although different as I'd expect, I couldn't say that using headphones made the effect more noticeable or that the speakers made it more noticeable. Either way it was very noticeable, just different. Why would I notice he effect more in my headphones?
The “cardiod dingleberry” bwahahhha!!!! Love it. You know, I’ve been thinking, all this M/S talk about “if for some reason you need to sum in mono”… like…. When? When do consumers ever listen to music in mono?? Earbuds, cans and car speakers are 99% playback formats Love the neotek btw. Got some racked channel strips of that console and they slay
In mixing. If you've recorded an instrument like a piano, or guitar in stereo, then need to pan it like a mono track for the mix, the two channels sum together perfectly, eliminating the "side" mic.
@@gregnorman1489 of course. This is obvious and even many plugins force a stereo field on mono tracks but I meant specifically those who mix entire final mixes in Mono. Electrical Audio Official's answer is a great one though. Good points all around. Thanks
I lost most of the hearing in my left ear a few years back, so I have to sum to mono every time I use headphones. As such, I'm *extremely* grateful to engineers who take the time to make the mix work in mono.
Thanks for such a useful video! One thing I was considering for my next project: using mid-side on the drums for the room sound and using the Recorderman setup for the drum overheads. The idea being that the overheads will get more of the character of the kit as the mics are behind the drums picking up the skins and the mid-side mics will pick up more of the stereo image and give a better impression of the room character (it's a pretty big, untreated room I'm recording in). Is this something that might work, or am I likely to cause all kinds of phase issues?
Try it! Recording multiple mics on any sound source will involve some compromise on the phase relationship between the mics, especially a drum kit where there are 5-20 "sources" (each drum, even each head on a drum, the cymbals, the beater/ stick, etc etc etc). Just be mindful of this and, as always, try reversing polarity on each signal to see how it affects the sound, and you can experiment with delaying signals or aligning waveforms in the DAW to get a more ideal phase relationship between signals.
That's very interesting. I like recording my drums with a single SM57 between the bass and the snare drum. It gives me a great sound for those 2 main drums and the hihat, but my crash cymbal and the low mounted tom are to the right, so they sound very quiet. Adding a microphone to pic them up really balanced the sound of the kit, but I wish there was more stereo (I don't really wanna put my kick and snare on a single side lol). Just reading the title of this video gave an idea to try and use mid side, with the main mic as the mid and the auxiliar one as the side, I'm hoping it will sound great (I guess it makes sense the crash and the tom to the side to have the most width, in my head). Gonna try that next time I record!
Again, awesome video and tips. A tape machine comparision would be great. Otari mx5050 vs Studer A820 24trk vs 16trk vs Tascam vs MCI? I think I saw a Tascam ms-16 in another video from you and a couple years ago you also offer recording on MCI 8 Track. Hearing the difference, hiss, thickness etc. would be very interesting, also facts like spooling time, effort to maintain... thank you and stay healthy
We borrowed the 16-track Tascam for transfers, and the MCI we sold a few years ago. We've standardized on Studet A820s because they're incredibly well-engineered, sound neutral, are great on tape, and have auto-calibration, so they allow us to maintain the standard of calibrating for every session while requiring way less time to do so. Those are the criteria one should consider when choosing a machine. The MX5050 8-track we also just use for transfers.
Thank you so much!! I am curious about how such stereo image would differ from having two cardioids panned hard L and R, pointed at the drums, one slightly to the R and the other to the L - similar to how we typically set up overheads but from the front? I am suspecting I wouldn't get as much of the ambience of the room coming from behind the mics, which I assume is a great use for this technique to begin with... thanks so much again and please please keep posting. Cheers
this would work, but you're locked into the stereo width you effectively "chose" with your mic placement. the nice thing about the m-s technique (apart from having a nice mono, if you need it) is you can create the appearance of reducing or increasing the stereo width just by changing the ratio of the levels from the mid channel and the stereo pair-i guess you could have a similar kind of control if you added another central mic to the set-up you mentioned, but then you're setting up three mics instead of just two.
(ofc you'll have a slightly different effect from setting up a separate "left" and "right" directional mic pointed directly at the source, compared to the "virtual" cardioid or subcardioid from using a central bidirectional or omni "side" mic, which-depending on their level relative to the "mid" mic-will also report more of the room sound as they're effectively angled away from the source)
Is it completely necessary to place the side mic directly above or below the mid mic or could you set the side mic further back in the room? Curious to know if doing so would cause any phasing issues.
Yes, it's a single point stereo technique, meaning the capsules/ mics should be as close to a "single point" as you can get them. This, as you suggest, prevents phase/ comb filtering issues.
Sweet pole dancing Christ, I am so glad Greg Norman finally gave up the golf and wine bullshit and started fucking around with ribbon mics. It's a much better Greg Norman than the previous one.
Without a figure 8 microphone could one face two small diaphragm condensers facing way from each other? Like on both sides of a large diaphragm condenser
Don't *need* headphones, it sounds fine in monitors. How much effort would you put into the positioning of the side mic - for example getting the kick or snare deep in the null?
Not to be 'that guy', especially as this has been really well done here, but the original technique states an omni for the mid mic. While you can absolutely use a cardioid, it's not quite the same effect - particularly as omnis do not produce proximity effect. The frequency response remains flat at any distance. - why they're so popular in field and large scale ensemble recording. To add to the conversation.
Wow. Wow. So that’s how Albini got that awesome guitar amp sound on so many recordings. I always wondered what I was missing. Can someone please explain how to record the flipped polarity so that you end up with the 2 stereo tracks from the perpendicular microphone? Is it just a matter of copying the side mic track onto another track and then flipping the polarity on one of those tracks using the mixing console’s “polarity” button?
I don't think Steve has ever used M-S to record an electric guitar cab. M-S is generally used on sources that have an inherent width to them, like an orchestra, instrumental section (strings, horns), a drum kit, a piano, etc. There aren't two *stereo* tracks from the perpendicular (side) mic, there are two *mono* tracks generated from it. You have the right idea, though- the front of the mic is positive polarity, and the rear is negative, so you duplicate the output of the side mic's preamp and flip the polarity on one, hard pan them and you have both sides. You can do it on a console or in your DAW.
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial Thanks. Yeah, that’s what I meant-two mono tracks for a stereo effect, sorry. Is Steve’s cab mic’ing + mixing technique generally just a mix of close mic and one some distance away, or behind the cab, and then mixed with some width to create a slight spread? One last question if I may re: M-S and polarity: what if I don’t have a console that has a polarity switch, and I don’t work with a DAW-is there outboard gear that can get the job done?
@@slacktoryrecords4193 It's almost always two close only, a ribbon and condenser or ribbon and dynamic. He places them a bit further back than is typical- maybe 4-8 inches off the speaker rather than right up against the grill. He'll commonly record an ambient mic, usually a PZM on the floor all the way across the room. Sometimes these are spread against each other. Sometimes the close mics are panned out, but, again, you aren't going to get much sense of stereo by panning two mics placed at nearly the same point recording the same performance. Polarity reverse is the correct technical term for what people usually call "phase flip." You aren't actually changing phase in the analog domain when you hit the flip button, you're literally just flipping the positive wire to negative and vice versa to reverse the polarity. You should have a dozen or so plugins that came with your DAW that have a phase flip/ polarity reverse button, same thing.
The side mic signal is sent to two channels (post mic preamplifier). You would use a "mult" on the patchbay, which is like a "Y" cable to split the signal.
When summed to mono, the idea that the sides simply cancel out and you are left with only the center mic is cool and all. But if I do a stereo-linked limit/compression on my stereo mix, is it reacting to the mono sum of the l and r? Aka not reacting to the side mics at all? Is that a good thing 🤔?
Any body know any good places where I can learn about conceptually about the math of summing / ms encoding / compression detection circuits / acoustics / etc ?
It totally depends on the way the compressor links. Some compressors take about a 50/50 share of the two channels to the detector/sidechain inputs, others weigh the actual input over the feed from the opposite, so there's a bit of difference in action between the two channels. Either way, it's an interesting point. The compressor would probably react more to what the Mid signal is doing.
@@SonnyGeorgeVlogs The best reference I know is in book form, but I'm sure there's a web source that's good as well. I recommend getting an devouring Handbook for Sound Engineers: The New Audio Cyclopedia.
With the cardioid mid mic, there's a region where the two polar patterns don't overlap. Anyone tried an omni as the mid mic? Wondered what difference that makes in practice.
We do this quite often. The image would be affected similarly to how either mic pattern would sound by itself. For example, a cardioid mic pointed at the center of a piano harp could be more focused on the strings its capsule is pointed to, whereas an omni mic would pick up more peripheral strings and could sound more even, depending on placement. You’d certainly hear that difference with it as a “mid” mic. If you’ve got an opportunity to mic different instruments and A/B them, it’s a really useful exercise.
I've got one question about mid-side: When you are tracking mid-side, do you prefer to record the mid and side separately to two tracks, and handle the balance of them in mix down, or, do you prefer to record the actual *stereo* image that results from the mid-side combo? The former would rely on correct labelling of the tracks and trusting the mix down engineer getting it right, but the latter locks in your creative choices as to the stereo image & balancing. I could see arguments for both, perhaps depending on the application, who is doing the mixing, etc? I've recorded mid-side on location for ensembles to a two-track (stereo) Nagra, and then remixed that down to a stereo mix later; that's always been my use-case for it (reflecting my experience more in location film sound recording). Just interested if you have views on it?
Electrical Audio's work makes it seem more likely that they'd record them separately and combine the tracks in the final mix, if you're recording at Electrical Audio you're probably having them mix too (thus eliminating concerns about relying on others to not fuck up). They're not the kind of studio that would record in such a way that they'd potentially have to re-record the whole drum part if the client decided they wanted the stereo image done a bit different, they're too efficiency-minded for that.
@@drpibisback7680 yeah that makes sense. I guess if the client turned up and said they were gonna mix it themselves you might wanna record the stereo mix - but of course then they’d have to be doing to it to pro tools and not tape, in which case you could record both the mid-side AND the stereo cos tracks are free more or less.
This was recommended to me as well and I really like the video. But to be honest you lost me when you started talking about the positive and negative polarity of the microphone. My knowledge of audio engeneering is very very limited. Can you give a recommnedation of where I can learn more about this?
A very thorough, if maybe too technical, reference is the Eargle's Microphone book. Otherwise, Wikipedia is a good read. The text below is pasted from Wikipedia: "Figure 8" or bi-directional microphones receive sound equally from both the front and back of the element. Most ribbon microphones are of this pattern. In principle they do not respond to sound pressure at all, only to the change in pressure between front and back; since sound arriving from the side reaches front and back equally there is no difference in pressure and therefore no sensitivity to sound from that direction. In more mathematical terms, while omnidirectional microphones are scalar transducers responding to pressure from any direction, bi-directional microphones are vector transducers responding to the gradient along an axis normal to the plane of the diaphragm. This also has the effect of inverting the output polarity for sounds arriving from the back side. "
Question: Do you use this technique in tandem with spot mics/overheads, or is this considered a strong enough technique in the industry to eliminate the need for combining multiple methods?
For drums it is usually combined with overheads and spots. Drum recording is done wildly differently everywhere, though, and a front-of-kit M-S pair can give a totally viable drum sound. Just probably not for modern metal or pop. For piano, orchestra, choir, etc. same deal. You may want extra detail from spot or area mics, but M-S can be a totally usable and good-sounding by itself.
Question about m/s processors on the market for anyone who knows: the Radial Engineering ‘Decoder’ (purple box) seems to offer only 2 outputs, L+M and M+R. Shouldn’t there always be a dedicated M output in addition to the decoded side outputs? There are a few other models that offer only those two decoded (middle + decoded side) stereo outputs. In other words, they’re “pre-mixed,” forever embedding the middle signal with the stereo side signals. Why would anyone want that, instead of the 3 signals as on EA’s board in this video?
The purpose of these devices is to decode the two mono input signals (mid and side) into traditional stereo in the analog domain. M-S is kinda a three-step deal: record mid and side; duplicate side and flip polarity on duplicate; blend mid and sides, ideally with the two side signals at exactly the same level. You would want it because it takes you from A to C instead of A to B. Three channels isn't actually decoded stereo/ LR, it's M-L-R. Three boxes fully decode the M-S into LR stereo, which is their purpose! With digital recording and its methodologies becoming prevalent it's more common to defer decisions like the blend of mid and sides till later and later in the process, but it's equally legit to just commit the blend and be done with it, giving you one less choice to deal with at mix. Or you could use one of these at mix to decode in the analog domain.
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial Thanks so much for the response. So the primary advantages to having a M/S processor box are 1) it allows you to control the level/width of the side signals using just one knob (?) on the box, without having to worry about not being able to keep the faders on your board even at all times (as discussed 5:46 - 6:16 in your video) and 2) it performs the side track duplication & polarity flip in the box, without taking up an additional channel on your board. Do I have that right? Are there any *disadvantages* to using a M/S box instead of performing all of the above without one? And where does the decoded L/R output from a M/S box typically get routed to on your board during the mixdown stage (insert/aux?). Many thanks.
@@slacktoryrecords4193 that's right. The major advantage to an MS decoder box is convenience/ efficiency. Instead of it taking 5 minutes to setup, it takes one, and you can quickly and easily audition favoring mid or sides, shifting the stereo image left or right, etc. Depending on what your decoder can do. We generally use the decoder during tracking, committing to a blend of mid and sides. It follows the mic preamp outputs, either as an insert, or patched directly, and comes back to the console on a line input and goes via bus or direct out to the multitrack. When we use a decoder at mix (a rarity), it would either be as an insert, or patched between the multitrack output and the line input associated with the monitor path (the path that feeds 2-mix). It is of little consequence which of these two ways you do it.
I've always found it difficult to work with figure-8 pattern microphones because there just so bipolar. And if you're on their wrong side...well, it's just null.
That’s what makes them so great though. They’re basically like a cardioid mic and a room mic combined, so they sound great on acoustic guitars and drums. Because of how strong figure-8 mics null (better rejection off-axis than a cardioid mic) you can place one between the cymbals pointed at the snare and get a really nice capture of the snare with very little cymbal bleed. It sounds less unnatural than a close mic but not as soft/distant as the snare pickup in the OHs and is far more isolated. Shamelessly stole the idea off Eric Valentine. RCA44s and 4038s sound especially good in this position.
You can. A fully functional ribbon shouldn't have any slack to sag. Lots of beaten up mics do, however. If that's the case, it needs to get it re-ribboned...
Blumlein (two coincident fig 8 mics at a 90º angle), is a great sounding stereo setup. I love it for overheads, acoustic guitar and some pianos. The drawback to this and xy is the center content is picked up by the two mics "off axis" at roughly 45º. This means neither mic is capturing the center of the target with its best response. All microphone's frequency response and fidelity deviate from their best, when positioned at an angle to the source (see the spec sheet's pickup pattern at different frequencies). This is especially true with figure 8 and cardioid, but also true of omni mics to some extent. M-S starts off with a mic pointed directly at the subject (Mid), taking advantage of its best possible pickup fidelity. So in the case with this video, you get a better representation of the bass drum, snare, general core of the kit than you would with two mics aiming at the sides, as with xy or Blumlein. The other advantage, as described in the video is if you choose to mono the signal to fit in a dense mix, the side mic cancels out completely, and you're left with the Mid microphone. Ideally that would sound good on it's own.
Hi, there's a more thorough explanation somewhere in the comments to a similar question. It's a mono mic, but the way a bi-directional mic registers sound, sound pressure "pushing" the capsule from the front generates a positive voltage, and sound from the rear "pulls" the capsule and generates a negative voltage. By splitting the signal into two, one that is the normal signal and the other with polarity reversed, you have two signals corresponding to sound from each "side" of the mic.
“Alright dip shit start playing” pan to Steve Albini playing drums🤣🤣🤣. This is my new favorite audio channel🤘
The ending as well.. xD
I came to say the same thing
He totally nailed being a drummer by playing while someone's trying to talk
Same (just subbed)
P.S. Thanks RUclips algorithm! 🎯
@@RanceChampion 🤣😂🤣 🤘🥁🤘
This is hands down some of the most informative audio engineering content on RUclips. It's college level thinking for free... Electrical Audio ladies and gentlemen
Man, that drummer is AWESOME. What feel. What a sound. Heck, you don't even need mics to record this guy. He just sounds that great
Holy shit, it's only when these guys post tutorials that I realize nothing else on RUclips is _actually_ funny.
Holy shit, me from seven months ago, maybe you should've been learning instead of giggling. Future you nearly just purchased TWO identical figure 8 mics for no good reason! 🤦♂️
...and hey, while I'm here: DON'T LIFT AND TWIST!!!! Guess who has no insurance and ends up looking like an asshole every day at work hobbling around on a cane?!? 🤬
@@Rompler_Rocco damn! really sorry to hear that. wish the u.s. healthcare system wasn't completely fucked all to shit… i did a number on my back through poor lifting form some years ago (luckily not _too_ severe, and i got access to physiotherapy and meds on the nhs, because britbong. just as well, bc there's no way i would have been able to afford treatment on my warehouse worker wage otherwise). take care, and i hope you're on the mend (or at least have found a use for that spare fig-8!)
I always appreciate the passionate stoicism in these instructionals.
Greg's spirit animal is the EA carpeted brick.
R.I.P. Steve Albini. This video in particular helped me, and his music inspired me.
I'm gonna send RUclips a Christmas card for putting this video in my recommendations. What a great technique and demo. Thanks for the video and the laughs.
I've been recently exploring mid-side recording with outboard hardware stuff and this is the most practical and informative context I've yet encountered after slamming through tons of other videos. Thank you very much, you've grown my knowledge by tons.
Oh my, I did not expect that exit!
This kind of How-To video is the exact style the world needs.
1st time I watch your tutorial.... really helpful...you've gained yourself a subscriber
Finally just tried this and it sounded amazing. It was a very accurate stereo image. Thanks again to all at EA for these.
Evil Steve banging away at the drums during the intro was the highlight of my day today.
i feel like i learned more about mic technique from this video than i did a whole semester of recording class at community college. neat.
I've used this technique on a Leslie, it works really well
Thank you for explaining about the "right/left-leaning" effect. I was hearing that in my recordings and could tell why it was happening. This is the first place I've seen it explained. Thanks!
3:41 - I like the way people from Electrical Audio look at things, and also what they explain about them. Thank you!! 🍀
These are getting better and better each time, but I would appreciate it if you set the dry sarcasm pot all the way to 'arid Sahara' please.
It wasn't already?
This is one of my favorite channels on recording, and this particular episode was. Super- informative and entertaining.
This is the best channel about audio recording that I ever saw!!
This is the guy who recorded the wedding present album take fountain. Fantastic record. Great engineer. No phase issues. 👍👍
This guy must be a blast to record with 😂
greg norman is the fucking man.
Anyone who doesnt wanna record with Greg should be glad they'll never get the chance
Greg is a great engineer and a terrific hang. Always my first choice.
actually, he is.
The 2 of them! 😂❗
I am soo happy to see you uploading. Please keep them coming, love you guys.
“Dingleberry.” This guy knows his audio terminology.
Yes sir this is my new favorite technique. As he says, "very natural" and makes my untreated room sound fairly okay.
You guys did it again...immensely educational and had me also fall off my chair laughing my ass off. Electrical Audio Rules!
That drum kit is gorgeous.
It's so exciting to get these videos from the owner of Studio Greg Studios!
Not to mention Studio Greg Studios 2, and Studio Greg Studios: The Ride
Second place coment, "the guy who ruined fire"
I was on loan.
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial The Novelization Of The Movie Adaptation Of Studio Greg Studios!
@@realSethMeyers Someone get Simon and Schuster on the horn.
I love this funny style of how to videos, thank you! Keep em coming!
Exactly what I needed to learn about for my next home recording project - thanks!
This is the funniest shit. I’ve learned so much. I’m going to go listen to Make Believe’s Of Course now. Thanks Greg and Steve!
I love the Jumpman Jr sounds efx while switching mics.
Ok, we're loving your tutorials guys. Much love.
This is the funniest mic positioning video ever and really informational
Greg builds my favorite MIc Pre.
this might be the best channel ever
Man I've been testing consoles for a while now and to test the phase switch I do the same thing to cancel one channel out when they are at equal attenuation but never thought of using it to get my side mics equal like that Great Tip!
best ms tutorial in the history of humanity
I am so glad I found you guys.🧡
I’m here for this - you just made my year! 2020 was worth it! - in all seriousness- good to see you guys back at it! Much love and good vibes (phase corrected of course)
Thanks a lot for this very usefull course. Could we have a full gig video of this great drummer of yours ??!
Love you guys!! Only found you recently but you delivery style & info are awesome 👌🏼😂 thank you!
The Zoom H6 field recorder contains a capsule with the mid side mic in a small capsule with very close orientation for very little time delay phase shifting. The side mic is bi-polar for excellent stereo pickup. The recorder has the processing matrix for generating stereo, or mid side channels. This is excellent for stereo for video or FM broadcast as Mono and L-R side is direct from the recorder.
Same for the Shure MV88+. You can choose to record the raw MS signal and decode it yourself or have the DSP take care of it, and you get to set some parameters.
Good, great, grand!! This is awesome. Learned something, I did. Now to see if my room cooperates with this sorcery!!
Thank you, this was great. I learned something new. Can you make a video comparing Mid-Side to other stereo mic techniques like XY? I'd love to hear the difference in how the drums sound.
It would be tricky to compare mid-side to XY because mid-side inherently leaves some decisions up to the engineer, namely, how wide to make the stereo image (the balance between the "mid" and the "side").
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial Good point. You're right, they're two completely different techniques. Do you have a preference?
You dudes rock. This is only the 2nd vid I've seen so far ( I just subscribed about 45 mins ago after seeing the 1st vid.)
You guys are great instructors & I love the content. That opening tho...🤘😂🤣😂❗
I hear the sereo effect just fine using either headphones or my regular system. I tried both and although different as I'd expect, I couldn't say that using headphones made the effect more noticeable or that the speakers made it more noticeable. Either way it was very noticeable, just different. Why would I notice he effect more in my headphones?
Because there's no phantom center with headphones.
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial Makes sense. Aftert your pointing it out.. yep, that's the difference alright.
Thanks for reading my mind when deciding what videos to make
Love the info and humor, guys! Keep up the good work.
thanks! i've always had trouble understanding this until now
The “cardiod dingleberry” bwahahhha!!!! Love it.
You know, I’ve been thinking, all this M/S talk about “if for some reason you need to sum in mono”… like…. When? When do consumers ever listen to music in mono?? Earbuds, cans and car speakers are 99% playback formats
Love the neotek btw. Got some racked channel strips of that console and they slay
A lot of cell phones, alarm clock radio, broadcast radio with poor reception, some streaming situations...
In mixing. If you've recorded an instrument like a piano, or guitar in stereo, then need to pan it like a mono track for the mix, the two channels sum together perfectly, eliminating the "side" mic.
@@gregnorman1489 of course. This is obvious and even many plugins force a stereo field on mono tracks but I meant specifically those who mix entire final mixes in Mono. Electrical Audio Official's answer is a great one though. Good points all around. Thanks
I lost most of the hearing in my left ear a few years back, so I have to sum to mono every time I use headphones. As such, I'm *extremely* grateful to engineers who take the time to make the mix work in mono.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge! This is accessible and informative! Much appreciated!
9:07 why does it sound more stereo if you compress the mono signal? thx! very cool video
Because the mid signal gets out of the way of the stereo signal more
Thanks for such a useful video! One thing I was considering for my next project: using mid-side on the drums for the room sound and using the Recorderman setup for the drum overheads. The idea being that the overheads will get more of the character of the kit as the mics are behind the drums picking up the skins and the mid-side mics will pick up more of the stereo image and give a better impression of the room character (it's a pretty big, untreated room I'm recording in). Is this something that might work, or am I likely to cause all kinds of phase issues?
Try it! Recording multiple mics on any sound source will involve some compromise on the phase relationship between the mics, especially a drum kit where there are 5-20 "sources" (each drum, even each head on a drum, the cymbals, the beater/ stick, etc etc etc). Just be mindful of this and, as always, try reversing polarity on each signal to see how it affects the sound, and you can experiment with delaying signals or aligning waveforms in the DAW to get a more ideal phase relationship between signals.
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial thanks for the tip :)
Hahahaha, that intro! Love you guys - thanks for doing this!
That's very interesting. I like recording my drums with a single SM57 between the bass and the snare drum. It gives me a great sound for those 2 main drums and the hihat, but my crash cymbal and the low mounted tom are to the right, so they sound very quiet. Adding a microphone to pic them up really balanced the sound of the kit, but I wish there was more stereo (I don't really wanna put my kick and snare on a single side lol). Just reading the title of this video gave an idea to try and use mid side, with the main mic as the mid and the auxiliar one as the side, I'm hoping it will sound great (I guess it makes sense the crash and the tom to the side to have the most width, in my head). Gonna try that next time I record!
Awesome! I need to do more m/s room miking. Maybe a blumlein vs m/s coming up 😲
Love this channel, keep them coming!
Came here for the info, subscribed for the humor. Love it lmao
Thanks a lot from Brasil. Have no idea if it was the case or not but love the sound of "title tk drums"
Thanks for the video!! Super helpful and fun to watch!
Again, awesome video and tips. A tape machine comparision would be great. Otari mx5050 vs Studer A820 24trk vs 16trk vs Tascam vs MCI? I think I saw a Tascam ms-16 in another video from you and a couple years ago you also offer recording on MCI 8 Track. Hearing the difference, hiss, thickness etc. would be very interesting, also facts like spooling time, effort to maintain... thank you and stay healthy
We borrowed the 16-track Tascam for transfers, and the MCI we sold a few years ago. We've standardized on Studet A820s because they're incredibly well-engineered, sound neutral, are great on tape, and have auto-calibration, so they allow us to maintain the standard of calibrating for every session while requiring way less time to do so. Those are the criteria one should consider when choosing a machine. The MX5050 8-track we also just use for transfers.
I loved this. Please do more!!
Nice info. And nice weird humor. I loved it!
Thank you so much!! I am curious about how such stereo image would differ from having two cardioids panned hard L and R, pointed at the drums, one slightly to the R and the other to the L - similar to how we typically set up overheads but from the front? I am suspecting I wouldn't get as much of the ambience of the room coming from behind the mics, which I assume is a great use for this technique to begin with... thanks so much again and please please keep posting. Cheers
this would work, but you're locked into the stereo width you effectively "chose" with your mic placement. the nice thing about the m-s technique (apart from having a nice mono, if you need it) is you can create the appearance of reducing or increasing the stereo width just by changing the ratio of the levels from the mid channel and the stereo pair-i guess you could have a similar kind of control if you added another central mic to the set-up you mentioned, but then you're setting up three mics instead of just two.
(ofc you'll have a slightly different effect from setting up a separate "left" and "right" directional mic pointed directly at the source, compared to the "virtual" cardioid or subcardioid from using a central bidirectional or omni "side" mic, which-depending on their level relative to the "mid" mic-will also report more of the room sound as they're effectively angled away from the source)
@@soupalex Thank you so much!
@@ivanphoto44 yw! glad my comment was of some use… i'm not very good at explaining things
Super informative and well made video. This rules.
Wonderfully awkward. Surprisingly insightful.
Thanks guys.
Lots of valuable info here, gents. Thanks for sharing.
Is it completely necessary to place the side mic directly above or below the mid mic or could you set the side mic further back in the room? Curious to know if doing so would cause any phasing issues.
Yes, it's a single point stereo technique, meaning the capsules/ mics should be as close to a "single point" as you can get them. This, as you suggest, prevents phase/ comb filtering issues.
Sweet pole dancing Christ, I am so glad Greg Norman finally gave up the golf and wine bullshit and started fucking around with ribbon mics. It's a much better Greg Norman than the previous one.
😆😆😆😆😆 brilliant explanation with hilarious comedy, what more can you ask for....
Great tutorial! Sidenote I wonder if they will ever sell those do boxes
We're working on a new batch RIGHT NOW
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial wwwwwhhhhhhHHHHHHHAAAATTT?!?!?!
MS Matrix box or DI box?
Without a figure 8 microphone could one face two small diaphragm condensers facing way from each other? Like on both sides of a large diaphragm condenser
i’m furious he did this editing style before i could think of it lol
Don't *need* headphones, it sounds fine in monitors.
How much effort would you put into the positioning of the side mic - for example getting the kick or snare deep in the null?
Not to be 'that guy', especially as this has been really well done here, but the original technique states an omni for the mid mic. While you can absolutely use a cardioid, it's not quite the same effect - particularly as omnis do not produce proximity effect. The frequency response remains flat at any distance. - why they're so popular in field and large scale ensemble recording. To add to the conversation.
Wow. Wow. So that’s how Albini got that awesome guitar amp sound on so many recordings. I always wondered what I was missing. Can someone please explain how to record the flipped polarity so that you end up with the 2 stereo tracks from the perpendicular microphone? Is it just a matter of copying the side mic track onto another track and then flipping the polarity on one of those tracks using the mixing console’s “polarity” button?
I don't think Steve has ever used M-S to record an electric guitar cab. M-S is generally used on sources that have an inherent width to them, like an orchestra, instrumental section (strings, horns), a drum kit, a piano, etc.
There aren't two *stereo* tracks from the perpendicular (side) mic, there are two *mono* tracks generated from it. You have the right idea, though- the front of the mic is positive polarity, and the rear is negative, so you duplicate the output of the side mic's preamp and flip the polarity on one, hard pan them and you have both sides. You can do it on a console or in your DAW.
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial Thanks. Yeah, that’s what I meant-two mono tracks for a stereo effect, sorry. Is Steve’s cab mic’ing + mixing technique generally just a mix of close mic and one some distance away, or behind the cab, and then mixed with some width to create a slight spread? One last question if I may re: M-S and polarity: what if I don’t have a console that has a polarity switch, and I don’t work with a DAW-is there outboard gear that can get the job done?
@@slacktoryrecords4193 It's almost always two close only, a ribbon and condenser or ribbon and dynamic. He places them a bit further back than is typical- maybe 4-8 inches off the speaker rather than right up against the grill. He'll commonly record an ambient mic, usually a PZM on the floor all the way across the room. Sometimes these are spread against each other. Sometimes the close mics are panned out, but, again, you aren't going to get much sense of stereo by panning two mics placed at nearly the same point recording the same performance.
Polarity reverse is the correct technical term for what people usually call "phase flip." You aren't actually changing phase in the analog domain when you hit the flip button, you're literally just flipping the positive wire to negative and vice versa to reverse the polarity. You should have a dozen or so plugins that came with your DAW that have a phase flip/ polarity reverse button, same thing.
How are the two mics sent to the console so that three channels are being used?
The side mic signal is sent to two channels (post mic preamplifier). You would use a "mult" on the patchbay, which is like a "Y" cable to split the signal.
how do you get the side mic to become two channels?
The very last scene of this video was Twin Peaks- like! The Alchemy, Transformation. Great!
When summed to mono, the idea that the sides simply cancel out and you are left with only the center mic is cool and all. But if I do a stereo-linked limit/compression on my stereo mix, is it reacting to the mono sum of the l and r? Aka not reacting to the side mics at all? Is that a good thing 🤔?
Any body know any good places where I can learn about conceptually about the math of summing / ms encoding / compression detection circuits / acoustics / etc ?
Wonderful video btw!!
It totally depends on the way the compressor links. Some compressors take about a 50/50 share of the two channels to the detector/sidechain inputs, others weigh the actual input over the feed from the opposite, so there's a bit of difference in action between the two channels. Either way, it's an interesting point. The compressor would probably react more to what the Mid signal is doing.
@@SonnyGeorgeVlogs The best reference I know is in book form, but I'm sure there's a web source that's good as well. I recommend getting an devouring Handbook for Sound Engineers: The New Audio Cyclopedia.
@@gregnorman1489 Thank you Greg! Thrill to learn from you!
These videos are amazing
With the cardioid mid mic, there's a region where the two polar patterns don't overlap. Anyone tried an omni as the mid mic? Wondered what difference that makes in practice.
We do this quite often. The image would be affected similarly to how either mic pattern would sound by itself. For example, a cardioid mic pointed at the center of a piano harp could be more focused on the strings its capsule is pointed to, whereas an omni mic would pick up more peripheral strings and could sound more even, depending on placement. You’d certainly hear that difference with it as a “mid” mic. If you’ve got an opportunity to mic different instruments and A/B them, it’s a really useful exercise.
I've got one question about mid-side: When you are tracking mid-side, do you prefer to record the mid and side separately to two tracks, and handle the balance of them in mix down, or, do you prefer to record the actual *stereo* image that results from the mid-side combo? The former would rely on correct labelling of the tracks and trusting the mix down engineer getting it right, but the latter locks in your creative choices as to the stereo image & balancing. I could see arguments for both, perhaps depending on the application, who is doing the mixing, etc? I've recorded mid-side on location for ensembles to a two-track (stereo) Nagra, and then remixed that down to a stereo mix later; that's always been my use-case for it (reflecting my experience more in location film sound recording). Just interested if you have views on it?
Electrical Audio's work makes it seem more likely that they'd record them separately and combine the tracks in the final mix, if you're recording at Electrical Audio you're probably having them mix too (thus eliminating concerns about relying on others to not fuck up). They're not the kind of studio that would record in such a way that they'd potentially have to re-record the whole drum part if the client decided they wanted the stereo image done a bit different, they're too efficiency-minded for that.
@@drpibisback7680 yeah that makes sense. I guess if the client turned up and said they were gonna mix it themselves you might wanna record the stereo mix - but of course then they’d have to be doing to it to pro tools and not tape, in which case you could record both the mid-side AND the stereo cos tracks are free more or less.
Man, Steve totally nailed Lars’ vibe on Master of Puppets 🎯
I was waiting for you to remove Steve't kit piece by piece while he's still playing at the end.
I love how after being drowned out by Steve’s drumming, he is staring directly into the bass drum hole 😂 hahaha
Super videos and explanation
Beautiful explanation!
This was recommended to me as well and I really like the video. But to be honest you lost me when you started talking about the positive and negative polarity of the microphone. My knowledge of audio engeneering is very very limited. Can you give a recommnedation of where I can learn more about this?
A very thorough, if maybe too technical, reference is the Eargle's Microphone book. Otherwise, Wikipedia is a good read. The text below is pasted from Wikipedia:
"Figure 8" or bi-directional microphones receive sound equally from both the front and back of the element. Most ribbon microphones are of this pattern. In principle they do not respond to sound pressure at all, only to the change in pressure between front and back; since sound arriving from the side reaches front and back equally there is no difference in pressure and therefore no sensitivity to sound from that direction. In more mathematical terms, while omnidirectional microphones are scalar transducers responding to pressure from any direction, bi-directional microphones are vector transducers responding to the gradient along an axis normal to the plane of the diaphragm. This also has the effect of inverting the output polarity for sounds arriving from the back side. "
Question: Do you use this technique in tandem with spot mics/overheads, or is this considered a strong enough technique in the industry to eliminate the need for combining multiple methods?
For drums it is usually combined with overheads and spots. Drum recording is done wildly differently everywhere, though, and a front-of-kit M-S pair can give a totally viable drum sound. Just probably not for modern metal or pop.
For piano, orchestra, choir, etc. same deal. You may want extra detail from spot or area mics, but M-S can be a totally usable and good-sounding by itself.
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial Cool! thanks for keeping the humorous deprecating tutorial genre on RUclips going strong
Question about m/s processors on the market for anyone who knows: the Radial Engineering ‘Decoder’ (purple box) seems to offer only 2 outputs, L+M and M+R. Shouldn’t there always be a dedicated M output in addition to the decoded side outputs? There are a few other models that offer only those two decoded (middle + decoded side) stereo outputs. In other words, they’re “pre-mixed,” forever embedding the middle signal with the stereo side signals. Why would anyone want that, instead of the 3 signals as on EA’s board in this video?
The purpose of these devices is to decode the two mono input signals (mid and side) into traditional stereo in the analog domain.
M-S is kinda a three-step deal: record mid and side; duplicate side and flip polarity on duplicate; blend mid and sides, ideally with the two side signals at exactly the same level.
You would want it because it takes you from A to C instead of A to B. Three channels isn't actually decoded stereo/ LR, it's M-L-R. Three boxes fully decode the M-S into LR stereo, which is their purpose!
With digital recording and its methodologies becoming prevalent it's more common to defer decisions like the blend of mid and sides till later and later in the process, but it's equally legit to just commit the blend and be done with it, giving you one less choice to deal with at mix. Or you could use one of these at mix to decode in the analog domain.
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial Thanks so much for the response. So the primary advantages to having a M/S processor box are 1) it allows you to control the level/width of the side signals using just one knob (?) on the box, without having to worry about not being able to keep the faders on your board even at all times (as discussed 5:46 - 6:16 in your video) and 2) it performs the side track duplication & polarity flip in the box, without taking up an additional channel on your board. Do I have that right? Are there any *disadvantages* to using a M/S box instead of performing all of the above without one? And where does the decoded L/R output from a M/S box typically get routed to on your board during the mixdown stage (insert/aux?). Many thanks.
@@slacktoryrecords4193 that's right. The major advantage to an MS decoder box is convenience/ efficiency. Instead of it taking 5 minutes to setup, it takes one, and you can quickly and easily audition favoring mid or sides, shifting the stereo image left or right, etc. Depending on what your decoder can do.
We generally use the decoder during tracking, committing to a blend of mid and sides. It follows the mic preamp outputs, either as an insert, or patched directly, and comes back to the console on a line input and goes via bus or direct out to the multitrack.
When we use a decoder at mix (a rarity), it would either be as an insert, or patched between the multitrack output and the line input associated with the monitor path (the path that feeds 2-mix). It is of little consequence which of these two ways you do it.
@@ElectricalAudioOfficial Thank you kindly! You covered all the bases. Can’t wait for the next EA video.
I've always found it difficult to work with figure-8 pattern microphones because there just so bipolar. And if you're on their wrong side...well, it's just null.
That’s what makes them so great though. They’re basically like a cardioid mic and a room mic combined, so they sound great on acoustic guitars and drums.
Because of how strong figure-8 mics null (better rejection off-axis than a cardioid mic) you can place one between the cymbals pointed at the snare and get a really nice capture of the snare with very little cymbal bleed. It sounds less unnatural than a close mic but not as soft/distant as the snare pickup in the OHs and is far more isolated. Shamelessly stole the idea off Eric Valentine.
RCA44s and 4038s sound especially good in this position.
Can you use a ribbon mic mounted that way for the side mic? I thought it’s problematic due to sag in the ribbon?
You can. A fully functional ribbon shouldn't have any slack to sag. Lots of beaten up mics do, however. If that's the case, it needs to get it re-ribboned...
Great stuff. But why choose this over a Blumlien setup?
Blumlein (two coincident fig 8 mics at a 90º angle), is a great sounding stereo setup. I love it for overheads, acoustic guitar and some pianos. The drawback to this and xy is the center content is picked up by the two mics "off axis" at roughly 45º. This means neither mic is capturing the center of the target with its best response. All microphone's frequency response and fidelity deviate from their best, when positioned at an angle to the source (see the spec sheet's pickup pattern at different frequencies). This is especially true with figure 8 and cardioid, but also true of omni mics to some extent. M-S starts off with a mic pointed directly at the subject (Mid), taking advantage of its best possible pickup fidelity. So in the case with this video, you get a better representation of the bass drum, snare, general core of the kit than you would with two mics aiming at the sides, as with xy or Blumlein. The other advantage, as described in the video is if you choose to mono the signal to fit in a dense mix, the side mic cancels out completely, and you're left with the Mid microphone. Ideally that would sound good on it's own.
@@gregnorman1489 that’s great, thanks for the considered reply.
Is reversing phase even possible if you're using a Tascam Model 24, for example?
Since that is specific to your mixer/ recorder you'll have to look in your manual.
i didn't realize steve was the one playing drums on all those shellac records
Great video guys! cheers
My audio professor in college used to say "M-S" stood for "Maybe Stereo" hahaha
So, is the sides microphone stereo ? How do you get to have both sides on separate distinct sliders?
Hi, there's a more thorough explanation somewhere in the comments to a similar question. It's a mono mic, but the way a bi-directional mic registers sound, sound pressure "pushing" the capsule from the front generates a positive voltage, and sound from the rear "pulls" the capsule and generates a negative voltage. By splitting the signal into two, one that is the normal signal and the other with polarity reversed, you have two signals corresponding to sound from each "side" of the mic.