Thank you for your video, I agree with a lot of your points. What I think did get lost in translation might be some of the references to Japanese history and common current mindsets in Japan. You mention how it is not easy to identify whether the Eldians are supposed to represent Germans or Jews. Actually I think they are supposed to represent the Japanese .. and that is not a good thing. A summary of 'sakoku' in Japanese history: Medieval Japan (think Samurai-Era) felt threatened by trade from Europe (Portuguese, Dutch..) who also tried to bring Christianity to Japan. The feudal government at some point closed of the Japanese borders completely and only allowed very limited contact to the outside world. I hope the parallels to Eldians on Paradis Island are obvious enough. Interestingly, many Japanese feel that this step was not a free choice but a last resort to protect Japanese interests. As we all know, the Industrial revolution brought on a rapid technological advance in the western world. Japan was closed off for about 200 years, until the US decided that they were going to force Japan into opening their borders - with their advanced weapons. Just like Paradis is confronted with being wiped out by their soon to be technologically advanced enemies. Japan during WWII and ethnic uniqueness: In Japan during WWII there was a strong propaganda to create the belief that there is an inherent Japanese-ness which is still prevalent today, not only with far-right activists. If you study any Japanese art you often come across the mindset, that only Japanese might ever be able to fully understand that certain art - simply because they are Japanese, and outsiders may never reach that level. In AOT the Eldians are genetically different from the rest of the world. Contemporary Japanese views on WWII: The Japanese school system does not include a lot of WWII lessons. So for most regular Japanese citizens, their knowledge about WWII and especially the war crimes is not very broad. This strenghtens opinions like 'my generations has had nothing to do with this war, so there is no reason for apologies or reparations nowadays' or 'It's all in the past and has nothing to do with today'. Even though there are still ongoing conflicts (e.g. South Korea and sexual slavery, euphemically called the 'comfort women issue'). Such beliefs foster a victim mentality. And in the case of AOT, I fear this was translated into showing the Eldians as being discriminated against - comparing them to how the Jews were discriminated. Which would be quite a sickening comparison. To sum it up, Isayama did portray the Eldians as being on an island nation that is technologically not as advanced as the rest and is thus confronted with an outside threat of being eliminated. This is so close to actual Japanese history that it is not far-fetched to think that Isayama is protraying Eldians as Japanese. Isayama also portrays Eldians as the victims of discrimination, going so far as to bring in themes of how the Jews were treated during WWII. I think the ending actually made it clear that Isayama - even though he might not be a full on right-wing nationalist - is leaning towards some of the arguments that are right-wing. The ending shows that Armin sympathizes with Eren's decision - because he did it 'for the greater good'. Being a fascist does not only mean being cruel just for the sake of being cruel - it also means to justify cruel actions by it being for a greater good. And that I think is exactly what the ending of Attack on Titan is doing. I too have been defending AOT since the beginning. But rewatching the series now, I feel like I interpreted many things too liberal, because that was what I wanted to see. Take that scene, where so many refugees are sent back outside the walls because the government was afraid of a food shortage. Reviewing that scene I think there is already an undertone of it being for 'the greater good', of it being a necessary evil and thus - justifying such a horrenduous act. Same goes with the scene where Erwin decides to order his soldiers to give their lives, just for Levi to have a chance to attack Zeke. Rewatching this scene, I think it actually was portrayed again as a necessary evil. And that would be fascist. Just like how in real Japan during WWII air pilots were ordered to fly their planes right into the enemy, the infamous Kamikaze. I'm sorry this got so long, no one I know watches the show and I needed an outlet for all of my thoughts after reading the last chapter of the manga. I think if you consider these points, the ending should not have come as such a big surprise. I really should have seen it coming unfortunately...
This makes much, much, much more sense, and taking all of this into consideration, I think you're right. Everything clicks into place with this analysis without having to parse the minutiae of the word-by-word translation of what Armin says. I think there's such thing as being right for the wrong reasons. Analyzing AoT as a World War II allegory as westerners understand the term (Germans vs. Jews with Americans on the right side of history) is transparently wrong, for the reasons I outline in the video. I think this "the Eldians are obviously Jews" thing is still bonkers, and I'd rather be told the precise flavor of fascism that's being peddled here, which you just perfectly laid out, than assume every country in the world makes their media specifically for a Western audience, which is something Americans take for granted after generations of propaganda insisting upon our outsize importance. I think it's worth leaning into the impulse of "no, that analysis doesn't seem right, because of x, y, z," if only so we can come to a better understanding of the complications and diversities of perspective in the world, even if (especially if) those perspectives are just different flavors of humankind's worst impulses. Anyway, I'm pinning this comment, thanks for your input.
@@themorbidzoo If you want another popular example of manga/anime manifesting the cringiest bits of Japan's WWII victim complex, look no further than Code Geass. It's not even a tiny bit subtle.
The main problem I have with this is that Armin doesn’t agree with Eren’s decision, he straight up calls it an “Error”. He still comforts Eren because they’re friends, but he doesn’t think the Rumbling was good. Also I’d like to point out that both Isayama and his editor have expressed disappointment that so many people side with Eren and the Jaegerists in season 4, as they’re meant to be the villains.
@@Ismael-kc3ry Yeah, you do know that one of the main points of right wingers is saying Hitler/Mussolini/insert random fascist dictator did many good things and some errors? The problem is that in the story there is no counter argument to fascist view and the freakin' moral compass doesn't even re-evaluate his "friend" after he commits a freakin' genocide. That would be a no-no for me
I was haunted by how the author dropped the ball on what could have been a powerful message about the cycle of violence. I was not expecting meat cake. Great analysis
Its not even it ending in tragedy, but the framing being very strange. Why not keep it the simple, eren couldnt stop and we saw that as good, but it with trauma and hate, gets you here. If you dont reflect on it. why the hell that supernatural and fate was needed to muddle that :(
The convo between Eren and Armin in the anime was seems very different. It felt like Eren wasn’t redeemed at all, and the only thing close enough to that was that Armin says “hey bro, I also committed genocide.” Eren seemed pathetic and unworthy of even his closest friends. I’ve since read the last chapters of the manga since I was anime only, and I personally believe the anime made a great improvement.
Man, I think the entire story in the anime is great. I just don't get how and why people even think to side with Eren and characters like Floch in the final season... just why? But hey, you can say that this show might have just revealed what the viewers' moral values are.
I'd be interested to hear your take on the anime ending. While it's not majorly different the dialogue has been changed up, and I personally think it better expresses what I assume Iseyama's original intent was. It feels much less icky.
one thing I'm so annoyed with about the discourse of analogy in any show is the assumption that if one thing represents something in real life in one way, then it's a 1:1 representation. Sure such analogy exists in fiction (see Aslan as an analogy of Jesus), but there are many examples of things that are analogous in some ways (Gandalf was an analogy of Jesus in some points, an analogy of angels in others; and later in the story Aragorn seems more of the analogy of Jesus).
I think so much discussion about Attack on Titan misses the mark by focusing almost exclusively on its Western inspirations, whilst treating its Eastern influences as trope-ish or pointless--relegated to a marketable aesthetic feature or "anime nonsense." Like, Attack on Titan is as much a Kaiju manga, as it is a war manga, as it is a shounen manga. Maybe it's because it's so normalized to expect from Japanese culture, but I think it's a mistake to ignore so much of the Kaiju influence in Attack on Titan. Like, we take for granted that the Titans are titans; why not Zombies, or Vampires, or anything else that could be described as a plague, or an allegory for the demonization of Jews? It's because they're Godzilla, and by extension, because the Titans (like all Kaiju media) are a tangential allegory for the atomic bomb. Which is the unique Japanese irony of the story being told; the Eldians are both the source of mass destruction, and its victim. The Titans are a dangerous enemy to everyone which is only wielded out of a perceived necessity of prevention from an opposing party. They're a self-fulfilling prophecy that harms everyone equally for their existence, yet can't help but perpetuate themselves--both the tool of the oppressed, and the oppressor. The Rumbling is treated as an inevitable result of human error, steered by Eren into a vehicle for change; what Eren actually did of his own volition, his only freedom, was give his friends the tools to be the actual heroes that save all of mankind. The point that the show is making, through the Japanese shounen tropes that it encapsulates in Eren, is that you can't wield an oppressive force in order to protect yourself from it. That Eren--as a shounen power fantasy--is destined to original sin, and an inescapable fate as an oppressor. I think it's a mischaracterization to say that Armin is glad that 80% of the population is dead--he's actually pretty fucking horrified that happened. What he's thanked for is that the Rumbling gave Armin the chance to live and finally do good, without the burden of being responsible for mass murder. Importantly, Eren's violence itself isn't glamourous, but pitiable; his wielding of power is, for a portion, entertained as masterful throughout the later parts of the series--this attractive, horrifying fascist icon of power and strength, but is ultimately revealed to be a face he puts on to protect himself from the shame, the guilt, of having been turned into a monster--both by his father, but ultimately himself. Japanese media deals, a lot, with the existentialism of power in general, but nukes in specific. The idea that we're all gonna blow each other up, eventually, for whatever reason. Not just "the cycle of violence", but the specific, inevitable experience of marching towards your own destruction--powerless to alter fate. Eren is, within the tropes of the fiction, Godzilla; a pitiable monster who stumbles to his inevitable death, but not before destroying everything living thing in its wake. Uri Reiss (and the other wielders of the Founding Titan) is the traditionalist Japanese establishment--who protects Japan by laying the reprecussions of untold generations of trauma onto his people as an act of spiritual redemption, but ultimate doom. Armin is the youthful Japanese--who will rise to action and defend themselves from a disaster that was bred from a collective shirking of responsibility onto the later generation. It all reads, once gathered in the fuller context of the story, as a pretty paint-by-numbers Godzilla narrative. The twist that Attack on Titan introduces to the tropes is that everybody else is Godzilla too--that everybody under the control of history and culture has the capacity to become a pitiable, destructive force, powered by rhetoric and harmed by cognitive dissonance. I don't think Eren is redeemed by any version of the ending, instead he's comforted by a close net of friends who recognize the tragedy of being Eren Jaeger--a man born into a role he could not escape, no matter how much he tried. Like, I just think it's weird that people discuss the ending of Eren's character arc like it's a story of redemption, when a part of that scene is Eren literally revealing that he killed his own mother, and is thus responsible for most of his own pain. I literally can't imagine a more direct way to lay blame for a situation than "you ruined your own life" being one of the final plot points. For what it's worth, I do think the anime translated the point of the scene in a much less... let's say 'rushed' way? I like the whole "we're both going to hell" vibe of brotherhood through shared trauma and responsibility--it emphasizes Armin's role as supporting protagonist well, and also reads a lot better as comfort for Eren. It also focuses the original "Thank you for becoming a mass murderer" line on how he's thankful for the opportunity to live that Eren gave him, and not the literal murder he committed for his sake--you miss a little bit of the lampshaded exploitation aspect that way, but it supports the bittersweetness of a final goodbye scene way better, so I understand it.
@@Practicallypreposterous Yeah, It's just frustrating to see people say they're open to a non-western lens of Attack on Titan (and other Japanese media), only to then interpret it through an uncharitable western understanding of a Japanese lens instead. Like, I'm sure they think they're helping give people more perspective of culture, but if we're not even going to bring one of the major genres of the show into the spotlight for analysis, then I question your bias.
The final part of the anime actually fixed some of the dialogue issues from the final manga chapter and does stay in a better line with the themes. And that thanking Eren for being a mass murderer line had to have been a rush job because that line is nowhere in the anime episode. So, do give the finale a chance as it sticks to the roots of the theme it started with and does deliver.
@@badmanjosh6091 I mean yeah sadly that is what happened in the manga and everyone hated it, for very obvious reasons. But even the creator stated he felt he was pigeonholed into doing that. Idk. But the anime version has Armin acknowledging that both him and Eren are at fault for the genocide Eren caused. So it’s certainly an improvement from how he had Armin thanking Eren in the manga
Attack on Titan has the exact same attitude toward fascism as Warhammer 40k. They never deliberately portray it as good, but they always portray it as inevitable.
AH! IM GLAD YOU MENTIONED THE ENDING. your points are interesting and debunked my ideas on the series (mainly the genetic inferiority eldians are a threat thing), but i WAS waiting the whole time like "are we gonna mention the redemption of eren are we gonna talk about the way the fandom idolizes eren despite the ending are we gonna mention it are we gonna mention the ending are we gonna mention armins mass murderer line are we gonna talk about it please talk about it i need someone to talk about it" Every time i see someone online who unironically calls themself a jaegerist, i piss myself.
Ha, thanks for the watch! Yes, it was very disappointing and doesn't ask the audience to interrogate their own impulses like I hoped it would and I think I'll just die now
@@themorbidzooSaw the Thing and Babadook analyses and was a big fan. I saw your earlier AoT defense and was a bit confused, although not because of how it ended. I tried to give AoT a shot six years ago or so, and I just couldn't get into it. The conflict itself, from the beginning, and the character responses to it, seemed self-indulgent, glorifying war with a real "oh shucks, I guess I have to kick some ass, even though I'm really just peaceful" vibe. I admit to never having watched beyond episode 2, season 1, so I can't speak any further to the IP, but I find this whole debate fascinating. Is there something in this style of conflict writing where the violence is fetishized? I mean this for both the good guys and bad guys, viewer and author. Is it really surprising that the show ended with an angry boy who loved to give into his rage to follow his own computer, was forgiven and canonized for doing that on a huge scale? If you just watch the first two episodes and see how the whole conflict is framed (inescapable) and how the heroes respond (with rage overcoming fear), it just tracks that the creator is not going to get that far away from these ideas. I spent 11 years in the army, and I found that most enemies don't exist. Conflicts like this don't exist. At least, they are not facts of nature, but rather constructions of psychology. You mentioned that AoT is framed primarily as a Man vs. Nature for most of the show, but the 'Nature' element is a grotesque human. Is that not, in itself, telling of the author's ideology? "I am scared, I should not be scared but brave, but it is natural to be scared because it is our dark natures we are fighting, so I will be brave against our darkness. Bravery is rage, it is survival, it is rooting out the shadow." This, in and of itself is very....colonial? Fascist? I don't really subscribe to either name, but I do really key on the idea that there is something to fear, and it is always there, waiting. However the series might play on cycles of violence perpetuating itself, I think it's critical to note that the series likely didn't have it's entire course plotted beforehand, and so it must have begun as the desire to deal with themes found in the first few events. In other words: the author chose to create this world, to frame a society in this conflict, instead of not. And at the time, he didn't need an end, because his initial art was to express those feelings. If I keep going, I'll probably just start repeating myself, so I'll truncate it here.
This is the perfect example of my feelings about this story. It’s really really good and its themes, if not all of its plot points, are very well written… up until literally its last few minutes/pages. It’s not fascist apologia or anything it actually makes a great case for how wars and atrocities sustain themselves through human suffering and weakness… up until it’s ending. I don’t think Iseyama is a war criminal apologist, I just think he’s a talented if irresponsible writer. Ultimately the anime did handle the ending far better through a few changes in the dialogue but Eren’s 11th hour redemption was not necessarily. His character was already a well conceived tragedy and didn’t need any further development. But at least Armin doesn’t thank him for his war crimes lol so that’s a plus. Anyway still an 8/10 minus the ending.
I don't really see the argument of how Eren is in any war a criminal apologist. The only reason he didn't kill the entire world was because he wanted his friends to live, and because he didn't want conflict be resolved by him. There is absolutely nothing Eren does right in the ending, and the entire manga agrees with that, Eren himself says it was out of emotion. I genuinely think Isayama put that Armin line in the manga because he didn't want the audience to forget Eren is literally a pathetic kid who was dealt the biggest power in the whole world, and who doesn't deserve to go out as a monster regardless of what he did, because he's literally the byproduct of all the war the manga is against
so one of the things I thought about at the end of the anime was when Erin says explicitly that he wanted to see all those people killed. I don't think its an endorsement of what he did or even a justification. It was a action out of anger which was allowed to fester more and more throughout the series. Erin was a product of his environment, which will cause more to be just as angry as he was and do the same thing. its a cycle of violence that started all the way back to the founder ymir, and will continue. If you watched the end credits clips, eladia was destroyed by nuclear fire. really no different than the rumbling. I don't think its trying to say that mass genocide is justified, its that you can use genocide to falsely justify more genocide.
@@b_delta9725 okay but consider that what you are describing is war crime apologia. He does deserve to go out as a monster because he killed a massive portion of all of humanity. There is no mitigating circumstance that makes you not a monster if you do that.
@@Sobepome Why? Reiner killed so many people yet he doesn't die and lives a good life. Nobody has a problem with that because he was a troubled kid thrown into war. Eren was thrice as troubled.
It's funny how just this morning I was thinking about how I can barely remember any factual knowledge I had 10 years ago or even one year ago even though I was a straight A student. But I still remember feelings and stories from even my childhood vividly.
I feel like arguing that the show itself it pro-fascist is just such a weird take. By Season 4, is Eren a reactionary fascist? Absolutely. But he's also pretty clearly vilified. If AoT is making fascism look like a good and moral system, then The Dark Knight's Joker makes Christopher Nolan look like a violent anarchist.
I don't think he's vilified enough though. Same goes for Floch, imho the most vile and fascist character of the whole Last Season, whose actions really aren't addressed that much.
@@andrewcgs Totally fair. I personally felt like it was obvious that Eren was in the wrong and that his screen time was showing him stooping lower than the Marleyans ever did, becoming what he swore to destroy, etc. But giving him and the Jaegerists and especially Floch plenty of background and presenting them as flawed human beings (capable of evil, but still human beings) did a lot of work to generate sympathy for them. And especially the fact that, by the finale, no one seems to outright hate Eren except for maybe Levi. Everyone else feels like killing Eren is something that Eren is forcing them to do, but it's not something that they would have done if they had been given any other choice, as if Eren at that point is still worthy of any sympathy. I wanna say that AoT is just outright bad, given that the main character ends up being a genocidal man-child. That said, I can't say that the show hasn't done a lot to get people talking about the main messages that the show brings up (at least in the beginning) about what it means to be happy, satisfied, free, and what people are willing to do to achieve that. Even if the show had to "sacrifice" real world public opinion of its main character in order to really get that point across. Like maybe the show's ending was bad on purpose. Idk. I like that it's at least sparking some interesting conversations.
Another fantastic video, as per usual. One thing I wanted to comment on was the last chapter. Ever since the last chapter came out a week ago, I have been racking my brain trying to figure out what the hell happened. I share quite a few of your criticisms of it (especially the Ymir-Mikasa stuff), but the main thing you touched on, being the "mass murder for our sake" line, is something that really puzzled me. After my initial reading of it, I thought some people were right, that Isayama was supporting fascism all along. After lots of reflection on that, I no longer think that's the case. I do agree that it's more of an example of sloppy writing than anything else. The main issue with this chapter is that it was clearly rushed as fuck. It was throwing so much at the audience whilst giving barely any breathing room to let the audience take in these ideas. I also think that Isayama wasn't trying to emphasize the morality of Eren's actions as much with that part as he was trying to address Eren & Armin's relationship. Isayama has always been a bit of a sloppy writer at times (it is his first manga, after all), and this is something I can see being addressed more clearly in the anime. He has struggled with concrete, overtly political writing in the past (I feel he's much better in the abstract & with concepts), namely in the "Uprising Arc," and that arc was changed rather drastically in season 3 of the anime, so I wouldn't be surprised if he does something similar with the final arc. Not only that but it's confirmed that the final volume of the manga will contain extra pages, so that could potentially help its case, too. I would recommend reading this post: www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/mqnlrt/a_look_at_the_japanese_in_armins_controversial/ and a take on the dialogue from a Japanese reader, for what it's worth: www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/mqnlrt/a_look_at_the_japanese_in_armins_controversial/guhziby/ It delves into how potentially something was lost in translation here. I personally don't see this as a betrayal of the themes of the previous 138 chapters, I see it as a product of a rushed final chapter, sloppy writing from Isayama, and potential translation complications. Regardless, I still think it's a phenomenal series, with rich themes and an interesting story to tell. Sorry for the wall of text, this is just something I have been thinking about for the past week, and this video got me thinking about it even more. Loved the video, so keep up the great work as this is quickly becoming one of my favorite channels :)
Yeah, I went through your entire thought process after reading it too. I think there's an understandable impulse in people to assume that this ending as-written was purposeful, but I really do think it's just bad writing. Unfortunately, the themes of AoT are so dark and touchy that it really doesn't allow for this kind of sloppiness. Like, that second link is the most available interpretation of this, but even that just kind of simplifies the near-extinction of humanity into an oopsie doopsie with good intentions behind it. The intentions behind genocide are always rotten and twisted, so it's already distasteful because of that, but ALSO Isayama was so wishy washy with Eren's motives that we still don't understand why he did it in the first place. Like I say in the video, you can give him a strategic motive or a villainous motive, but this really is a situation where you can't have both. That first link does clear some stuff up, it seems like the kind of thing that the show might be able to fix with a few carefully placed words, fingers crossed. Thanks for watching! And for being here! ❤
I’d say Isayama will use the anime as a way to extend the ending and rectify his mistakes. I liked the final chapter a lot but it suffered a lot from being rushed. This comment is probably the best take on this. Isayama is not siding with Eren, he’s simply not a perfect writer.
@@themorbidzoo there's an argument to be made about the last laaaaast chapter, which shows a sped up world being destroyed and a new generation unlocking the power of the Titans. Perhaps Isayama tried (and failed) to convey that forgiving and even going so far as to thank Eren for his actions was a mistake that ended up perpetuating the cycle of war.
I think something similar as well, Isayama made it rushly, so the important points came out like that, i heard in part is because the number 139 in japanese mean freedom so he wanted to end it at that number, which in my opinion that's not only was inconvenient for him to end the point he wanted but rushed things more and the number on itself is not on the story to be more intentional and he said he would have liked to make Armin and Eren conversation longer, maybe he do it better in the anime.
@@marcospatricio8283I personally think thats a huge assumption from several fans that the tree at the end represents the return of the titans. Rather I think it symbolises a new beginning like how Ymir ultimately began the series except this time with major differences. This time the child is not being hunted by a dog, they are travelling alongside it as their companion, this time they were not chased and forced to hide here, they stumbled upon it and seem curious. The cycle has begun again, yes but this time things have been improved somewhat. Which I think is a core message of the story, it says conflict is inevitable but we must seek out peace for the sake of others that come after us. Even if things only improve a little after ending the conflict, it is worth it. The curse of the titans began because of Ymir’s situation and her desire for connection at the end of the day, this character does not have that same burden as far as we know. I just think people need to look into this a bit more rather than just observe it at a surface level reading.
The nose argument was truly the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen and seeing so many RUclipsrs be like “Who are we to say that the nose issue is a bad argument” because they are afraid to touch it was just incredibly obnoxious. Thank you for the solid and structured arguments!
This is the best video about the series I've seen and I'm so damn glad it's finally here! I feel like the ending of the manga was altered, whether by Isayama or his editors but since Eren is such a fan favorite they didn't want him to be a bad guy so had him be a secret good guy at the last minute. Not only does that have suspect implications about war crimes for the greater good lol and not only is it a really goddamn lame twist, I also feel like it goes back on why people like Eren to begin with. People didn't like him because they thought he was in the moral right, they liked him because he didn't care he was in the moral wrong and would go to any lengths to fight and die for the freedom of his friends and having him go back on that for a "greater good" is just like AAAAA WHY???? But anyways I just really want to ask what you think of Reiner as a character because he's my absolute favorite and seeing him get a happy ending eased my agitation toward the chapter a lot, and also ask who your favorite character, if any, is?
Lol I compleeeetely agree. I think film industries the world over are hampered by producers acting like their business acumen applies to art-- like they just need to "give the customer what they want." Stories don't act like other products that way. If it wasn't Isayama's decision then I do think that's what happened. If it was Isayama's decision then he was either himself in that mindset, or was too in love with Eren as his baby to follow through on where the character was going. Boooo thumbs down either way. I love Reiner and someday I'm gonna marry that man. I think his transition from villain to antihero to tragic figure was pretty seamless and one of the best examples of characterization this series has. His split personality thing is just a little bit on the nose for me, though I do like how it's written. I think my favorite might be Ymir (Jaw Titan Ymir not Founder Ymir). I think her story is a really sad example of the collateral damage of that world's bloody history, and I like her explicit gayness and the fact that no one else remarks upon it. Thanks for watching! And being here! ❤
@@themorbidzoo i would to say if i remember correctly, Isayama said in an interview he strugled writing the ending, and he thinks he could have made it better but doesn't change themes. I found this on Reddit btw. "For Isayama, the last part of the manga is a difficult theme beyond his ability. Isayama feels that he has not been able to fully express these themes with the manga, so he regrets it" if there's no problem i would like to ask you what do you think? And how you look at the story now over all.
@@akamesb4540 I know it's easy for me to say since I'm not the one on a publisher's deadline, but he should have taken as long as it needed to to end it properly if he was unsatisfied with the ending he came up with. Stories are important, a story like this can be extra important given its political charge, and an ending is a crucial part of the structural integrity of the story as a whole, not just a wrap-up. Like, not everyone has to like your ending, but if you yourself can't justify it then you simply should have written it differently, have some respect for your own creation.
@@themorbidzoo i love the series, got me more into shonen, i agree what u said, he should have taken the time to write that better, i think it was rushed, for a story like this, i think two to three chapters would have been good. I just hope in the anime he takes he does it and takes his time since is an special. I remember a case of the author of Shaman King, he and the fans weren't very happy with the first ending and years later he decided to change it, i think Isayama should have done that but instead of changing the themes, just making them better based on his story, not on fans ideas, i read somewhere he looked up at fan theories and he wanted to end the story on 139 cause in Japan that means freedom or some, for me if that's the reason rushed things to end it for an easter egg a lot of people won't understand or see as intentional, instead he could have put in an object.
I was honestly half expecting AoT to drop the ball at the end. Most manga I've read don't really stick the landing in a way that almost seems like it's a systemic problem in the manga industry.
@@bruhdon4748 yeah, but AoT didn't feel like that, it actually felt kinda rushed after the Marley arc and ended so fast you'd almost think it was canceled.
I went anime-only. Having watched the last chapter, I feel like the issues I heard about in the manga were sort of addressed, but I have to say that the only theme I was initially left with on watching was nihilism. War can't be stopped. As for Eren.. his actions just left me confused. I feel like the time travel and the nature of his abilities blur the message a bit, if there is one.
It's difficult for me to express my appreciation for this video. There's time and energy invested here, into an IP that is worthy of examination, beyond the scope of cursory fandom. It feels like you would have much more to say on this topic, and I'd be very interested in being a part of that hypothetical conversation. Thank you for taking the time to put this together. As someone who has gone through the paces of writing, I can only ever hope to pay it forward. If you do find the inclination to pick this IP apart further (now that the last leg of the story is being animated) feel free to reach out. I'm happy to PM my discord, etc. This vid alone earns a sub from me! Thanks again.
watch the show’s rendition of the finale. they make it more clear that Erin really is not redeemable or redeemed in any way. He simply hasnt abandoned his friends and had a goal in mind that did protect his island. He still committed genocide to do it and is still absolutely a monster, even in his friends eyes. They are just happy that he didnt secretly hate them as much as he hated the world. The sad weird question everyone is left with is that ‘Well, his plan did work’ but was it worth it? Probably not. It’s the result of a god complex and god like power. In the process however he killed millions including so many of his own people. The one’s he sought to protect. I guess the weirder question it leaves you with is one more akin to the use of nukes to end WW2 than anything to do with Nazi Germany. Were they worth it? They prevented the invasion of Japan and subsequent bloodbath but also destroyed two cities & 200,000 lives 31:04 mercilessly as well as unleashing the spectre of nuclear annihilation. Obviously not a 1:1 analogy but a closer one imo. Idk i thought the show pulled it off pretty well but it wasnt subtle and it’s not the smartest show ever. obviously lmao
I never really interpreted Eren as having a god complex. Like, maybe I'm forgetting things, but from around the ending of Season 3, to the end, he's a self-depricating, self-admitted idiot who acts without thinking. I think the idea is more that Eren is pitiable for having been given the most difficult job in the world; being the protagonist of a Shounen anime where there is no good ending. He's a tragic protagonist because, up to a point, he really was only trying to do the right thing--and the show uses the early framing very well to justify that. Later he becomes despicable because his actions are framed without the context of the idiotic, but ultimately human desire to protect everyone you love, and then ultimately it's framed by Armin's thankfulness for being given a chance to live. It's sweet, I think. A real trauma bonding experience. Also, I 100% agree with the nuke analogy; I actually made a comment right before seeing this one complaining that so many people seem to ignore those aspects of the themes. A lot of people seem to take the Rumbling as an allegory for the holocaust for granted through a very presumptuous western lens, and not nuclear annihilation--which it so clearly, blatantly is. Shit's frustrating, like, it's right there.
I'm confused what you mean when you talk about Dune saying the ends justify the means. I guess because in the end Paul's vision did work out for the imperium but I think the point of the story is that he lost his humanity in order to do so. You're not supposed to know objectively if what Paul did was good for humanity in the end. It's meant to be a topic of debate not a message burned into the reader. It's a thought experiment exploring what it would be like for someone to know the future and the horrible events that they would have to allow happen for it to play out the way it needs to. Ultimately, for me, it's a story about why it's good that humanity isn't omniscient and our universe and future isn't set in stone, not one about justifying means. It's the same for Attack on Titan I think. The problem that I have with reviews like this is the desire to extract some kind of concrete moral message from stories that inherently deal with abstract concepts like the future and the greater good. These stories are, like I said, thought experiments. To take them so literally as a pro or anti fascist message feels like inserting your own political bias rather than taking them for what they were likely intended to be. Dune is a masterpiece of science fiction. A work of art that deserves to be studied and analyzed for years and years to come. To summarize it with such a simple takeaway as "the ends justify the means which is bad" is to rob the story of it's profound themes and messages about humanity, government and religion. It is doing the novel a massive injustice by misinterpreting it's exploration of fate and good and evil as one definitive moral conviction rather than a series of complex questions posed to the reader. Seriously reread Dune it is so good.
@@offtheshelfETI would have agreed with you if I hadn’t read God Emperor of Dune, but alas. Nah, GEoD leaves little room for doubt about the tragic necessity of the golden path.
@@fieuline2536Yes I agree that the message of god emperor is that the golden path was justified. However in chapterhouse dune this notion gets edited. This often happens in dune as a series, one example being dune messiah re defining the ending of dune as being subverted. Chapter house also subverts the golden path. It changes from a plan that saved humanity to a plan that nearly killed all of humanity and is only useful as a plan of what NOT to do. Specifically never to trust leaders Frank Herbert talks explicitly about this. He says Nixon was his favorite president. Not because he did anything good but because Watergate was a lesson not to trust leaders especially when they talk about the greater good.
So I’ve been binge watching your videos and, after finishing this one, I wanna recommend an anime called Shin Sekai Yori (From the New World), since I think it’s a show that handles some very heavy topics and I would love to hear your take on it. I watched it a long time ago, but it still pops into my mind from time to time as “that one brutal and traumatizing anime I saw when I was thirteen”. It tackles themes like “humanity is evil and self destructive” and “fear will motivate people to do monstrous violent things” and so on. Hopefully, it will interest you to make a video. In any case, I love your work! Come to Brazil, girl!
I also really hated that line from armin in the manga and I think the anime improves that part especially. Even in the manga I don't think the intention is to "redeem" eren it makes sense for the characters and to some extent the audience to mourn eren after all they and us have been through with him but i don't think the characters think what eren did was good. If the story was trying to say eren was doing a good thing the characters wouldn't have spent the entire last arc trying to stop him. I also think acting like one or two bad lines or pages makes the author a bad writer isn't really true. An author stumbling a bit doesn't mean they're bad especially when everything in attack on titan was so good up to that point. Really I think he just needed one more chapter to flesh stuff out a bit. The anime ending is still not perfect but it definitely improves it. Regardless of all that though this video was very well made and pretty informative.
The central problem with AOT is that there is no singular, coherent thematic interpretation that does not also leave lots of the content out. I could pick and choose details to make a fascist or anti-fascist reading, but both would also require me to outright ignore large swaths of details that could undermine it. It is an anti-war story where most of the characters are badass supersoldiers who also die randomly. It is a story about social opression where the opressed group demonstrably are dangerous monsters. The main hero becomes a villain two thirds of the way through, but the story wants to have it's cake and eat it too my keeping him vaguely sympathetic, and possibly over corrects in that direction. The Eldians are Germans or Jews or Japanese depending on which scene you are looking at, same for all of the other factions. Is the Power of the Titans a metaphohre for X Y or Z, or all at once, or are the magical meat mechs just magical meat mechs? AoT is built around its plot and characters first and foremost, visuals and action second, and theme and politics a *distant* third. Any political subtext is accidental, and, thus, nearly incoherent. If I were to make a *very* tentative interpretation of the work that incorporates the majority of it with a bit of crowbaring, I thing AoT is *intended* to be a work about the dangers of fascism that itself unknowingly (?) contains and reflects many of the subtler fascistic thought-pattern.
the themes i got were; War is bad. Bigotry is bad. Indoctrination and child soldiers are bad. The point of life is day to day enjoyment, and none of us should be sacrificing our lives to continue a cycle of violence. I thought that even when the only threat was the titans, the scouts should have just stayed home and tried to enjoy whatever time they have left with their families, and try to get to the interior walls, sure it has to collapse eventually, but maybe you can die of old age in the inner walls first.
So, to summarize, the author of AoT is the "bad evil things are bad and evil" everyday layman in terms of his lackluster and wishy-washy understanding of history, philosophy and political sciences, which is why AoT is so equally lackluster and wildly inconsistent thematically? I am...absolutely not surprised. Not even a little.
Thanks for writing this comment. I just finished the anime and that was exactly my take. Its ideas are very interesting! But they’re also incoherent. Especially Ymir, my god.
You had my subscription at "We have to leave room for people to think critically about ideas". About the "nose thing": indeed... having lived in Japan myself, I can testify that "big noses" over there are still a signifier of "Westernness", and Japanese actors or TV personalities playing white western characters on talk shows and TV shows very often wear fake long noses (and you didn't hear me use the term "white face"...). (Also, completely unrelated, but nice use of Haendel's Sarabande...)
Big thank! Yes, obsession over physical caricature is one of those things Americans don't realize is a specific cultural politeness thing, not a universal standard, like not wearing your shoes in the house. In Mexico there's a very beloved comic book character called Memin Pinguin who, to Americans, looks like a REALLY offensive black caricature. That's understandable, but we have to allow for other cultures to have different relationships to racialized portrayals-- it's not the world's job to make Americans comfortable.
@@themorbidzoo Ha! Japan ruined me: I’ve internalized the wearing-shoes-in-the-house taboo to the point where what disturbs me most in American horror movies is seeing people wearing shoes inside AND EVEN ON THEIR OWN FRIGGIN BED!! That last one has probably become as primordially repellent to me as the idea of incest (way to have my priorities sorted…). Interesting point. Had to look up Memin Pinguin. I know that “the suspicious mind conjures its own demons” and that I’d have to actually read the comics to be able to comment intelligently, but Memin's strong simian facial features and morphology are indeed quite conspicuous (even for my own cheese-eating-surrender-monkey sensibilities!). Especially so because all white characters appear to have anthropomorphically accurate features. Memin is even sometimes seen playing with or being cuddled by actual monkeys, and Asian characters only fare marginally better representation wise. I suppose there *could* be valid (i.e. non racist) reasons for such a radical choice of representation in a work of art (e.g. reification of Otherness-as-perceived-by-(some)-white-people-in-the-40's at the time of the comic’s creation, in order to produce its criticism…) and I understand the comics have strong anti-racist themes going on (and not in the recently acquired fallacious/deceitful meaning of the term), and also that the authors have emphatically defended themselves against accusation of racism. Not quite sure what to make of this one. I agree there needs to be room for different cultures to have different relationships to racialized portrayals, but I think there’s a step between representing characters with exaggerated human features (big nosed Westerners in Japanese media...) and singling out a particular ethnic group for zoomorphism (now if ALL characters in "Memin" had animal features it would be a different story…), for the same reasons I agree with your argument that vampires are only scary if one perceives Otherness as threatening. Damn! Even your comment sections are thought provoking and force one to seriously ponder over things. (Apologies for the super long comment, won't do it again!). [edited for typos]
@@brulyon ha no probs, I love meeting new people to chat in the comments with and I'm glad you're here! Yeah, I know, that character design is a big fucked up no no...in America. There have been issues where Memin merch has been sold in heavily Mexican places like Texas and gotten complaints, which I think are 100% warranted. It's just that in Mexico it's not really considered rude or a red flag to point out or even make fun of people's physical features, even if they're racialized, especially for the older generations. It's a different standard, because Mexico's history of race relations is different. It's a touchy character design for sure, but it would be ignorant and disingenuous to say that the comic is a promotion of hate crimes and speech the way it would arguably be if it were an American text, because its intended audience consumes it differently from Americans. It's the kind of situation where cultural relativism is good, like, let's not ALWAYS assume ill-intent about things that are a matter of culture.
@@themorbidzoo "Let's not ALWAYS assume ill-intent about things that are a matter of culture." Well agreed. Humans are imperfect creatures by nature, whose motivations are sometimes unclear to even themselves: intent and intellectual honesty (or lack thereof) should always be taken into account. Most disturbing things these days aren't monsters, with whom it's never too difficult to identify (nor people keeping their shoes in bed, even though they have no soul...), it's externalization of evil, aspirations of absolute and purity (instead of nuance and complexity), and what seems to be the resurgence of a strangely perverse latent desire for penance, all of these quasi-religious feelings seemingly straight out of the European Middle Ages...
@@brulyon I think the internet made us regress a little bit in that way. It's a very easy method to ignore your immediate surroundings and the social challenges they offer because you can belong to what seems like a large, inclusive, and important community online no matter who you are. People will do just about anything for acceptance and purpose. :(
While I’m in the “AoT is fascist” camp, I really appreciate how measured and well reasoned your responses were. One of the main issues that I have with the discourse around AoT is that I think that many of the arguments miss the forest for the trees. First, many of the arguments center season four as arena for discussion, but I’d argue that AoT was fashy as hell well before the final arc. From the beginning, Isayama presents us with the one division of the military that is noble, hyper-competent, and ideologically pure as being the only hope for a fallen society that must stand against not only the hideous monsters banging at the gates, but also the corrupt and degenerate structures of power that exist in the society presently. The narrative forces through the first few arcs are written from a “fascist imagination” of the world where our cadre of true believers are entirely justified in all of their actions all of the time because the construction of the world they live in necessitates it. I’m not saying that Isayama is necessarily a fascist. I don’t think Zack Sneider is a fascist, but 300 is a pretty damn fashy movie. Same thing. The world that Isayama built is one where a the good guys must, for the good of the people, stage a fascist coup against the monarchy because their fascism wasn’t the right fascism. Hell, they even do so by collaborating with the media and capital to win the hearts of the Folk. Second, a lot of the western critique attempts to examine the politics of AoT through the lens of European fascist movements, when I think it’s better understood by examining the Japanese fascist state and the postwar era of reactionary politics. Contemporary Japanese Ultranationalism is very much a movement of grievance politics with that palingenetic myth we see in so many fascist movements. The Eldian restorationists are a perfect case-in-point. “Why are we being punished for the sins of our ancestors, we must restore ourselves to our former might and glory” is a rallying cry held by both the restorationists and Japanese ultranationalists. Once again, it’s the “fascist imagination” that engineers a world where they are absolutely correct, with the (at best) tone deaf application of WW2 imagery. Third, positing AoT as being antiwar is pretty puzzling to me. True, it makes war seem horrific and unjustified. Except for all those times it makes it look totally awesome and totally justified. Fascists have the tendency to make the military look glorious and worthy of spectacle, but equally important is their depiction as war being eternal and inevitable. Killing is bad when they do it, but it’s acceptable (if unpleasant at times) when we do it. I just don’t buy the idea that AoT is antiwar and thus antifascist when it seems (most charitably) incoherently agnostic on the subject. Personally, the conclusion of the story was pretty much what I expected. Even when Eren was at his most reprehensible I never could believe that Isayama truly considered him a villain, so when they Friendship Is Magicked him at the end I was not surprised at all. I really appreciated your analysis in the video and will be subbing for more! Edit: just read the pinned comment, wish I hadn’t written this novel lol
When I was watching AOT, and the restorations became a thing, at no point did I feel any sense of “this is good” or “this is justified”. To me, it was just a part of the story that happened. In made me realize that at some point, Grisha was prideful. He became just like what Floch becomes. It made me realize that he allowed the nightmarish circumstances he was faced with to push him into becoming just like the people who would treat him like an animal. Then, later in the story it’s revealed that he changed and became much more understanding of the situation. That’s anti fascist. It takes a fascist character and flips him on his head, revealing to the viewer that his previous beliefs were wrong. This happens with Eren and the rumbling as well. He’s shown to regret what he did, and admits that he did it because he’s an idiot. In other words, Eren admits it was a mistake. He admits it was wrong. Just like the war aspect of it, just because it’s in the story doesn’t mean the story is pro war. At every turn AOT is ramming it down the viewers throats how wrong war, murder, genocide, subjugation, etc are. And most importantly, it’s up to the individual how they perceive the story and how they allow it to impact them or their lives.
@@StumbIingforwardI’m willing to concede that other people might not have read AoT with the same loathing that I did and might have been able to overlook the problematics that I listed above. In consequentialist terms, if you read AoT and came away with the feeling that war and genocide are bad, then, well, good. They are, and if reading AoT led to a more ossified belief in the evils of war and genocide, awesome. But I don’t think that the text was concerned with “good and bad” of war and genocide, rather than the justification thereof. I can buy that there are people who engaged with the text who didn’t believe it to be a work of fascist fiction (like I did), but the assertion that it is antifascist is not a tenable position. AoT is as much a work of horror as anything else, so it’s fitting that the depictions of war are horrific. And it’s pretty damn effective in that regard. However, Isayama constructed a world where war, militarism, Ultranationalism, and genocide are not only present, but necessary. There’s no wiggle room. There’s no other choice. It’s horrible, sure, but it’s also completely justified in AoT’s world. I just can’t believe that a work of fiction that concludes with an act of genocide that is ultimately vindicated by the text is somehow antifascist, no matter how sad it made his friends. AoT fans engage in this weird apologia that I’ve never really seen before with any other work of fiction and I think it’s because they don’t really understand what fascism is. I don’t care if AoT depicts Eren as villainous or war as horrific. What I care about is the fact that it presents all of the horror perpetrated by our protagonists as justified and ultimately vindicated.
@@jna9197 They’re justified to you. They aren’t justified to me. And let’s get specific. What exactly are you saying the story is saying is justified? The rumbling? It doesn’t. People wrongly perceive it that way, but in reality it’s just something that happens in the story. It’s only stated to be wrong in the actual story. At no point is it argued that it’s right. And by the end, Eren himself calls himself an idiot and regrets it. I find it strange that the ending is what makes you think it can’t be anti fascist. Because Eren kills so many people? Again, that clearly isn’t portrayed as a good thing. It’s horrific and disgusting. It’s a cautionary tale just as much as anything else. “We have to keep the kids out of the forest”. Well, Eren couldn’t get out of the forest. I believe it’s saying “look at what the world turned him in to”. It’s to say that if people don’t change their ways and come to understand one another, then all that will exist is chaos and war. If that’s not anti fascist and anti war, I don’t know what is. Do you mean things as simple as “since the titans exist, the military must exist”? Because in real life, the only way the military couldn’t exist is if no other militaries or potential threats existed. If the very existence of the military is fascist, then there almost certainly will never be a world without fascism. It’s like when people advocate for the police, meaning, the entire concept of the police, not being a thing because they’ve deemed it inherently fascist. In reality, those same people who claim they don’t want police would be ran through within a couple of weeks just like most people. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say “the military exists in AOT, and the military is fascist, therefore AOT is fascist propaganda”. Does that mean every story involving war or the military is fascist? It doesn’t make sense. I understand the use for propaganda, it’s very real. But I don’t see how AOT is pushing fascist ideology at all. It seems to be the opposite to me. By the way I appreciate your response, thank you for sharing your opinions on it in a reasonable way
I had this on my watch later for 2 years waiting for the anime to finally end, and now it actually has 🎉 but thank you for making this and breaking this whole mess of a conversation down. It's a conversation I've had with friends before and these are all things I've been saying all along. I'm curious if your thoughts have changed with the anime ending being a bit different and honestly better written, but yeah the manga ending is pretty much a mess and everyone can agree with that it seems.
I would be so hyped to see your take on Code Geass. I found it did the “unite vs common enemy” theme really well, and seemingly knew what it was doing the whole time!
Thank you for this, you have no idea how much I empathize with your frustration. It's so infuriating to spend several years defending AoT from flimsy, bad-faith criticism only to read the last chapter and feel like an absolute schmuck. When 90% of the story has been nuanced, mature and anti-fascist, and 9% questionable but altogether not a big deal, that final 1% that makes you go "WTF Isayama!?" stings like hell.
So the read I got (which I am not saying is the correct one or anything) was less that Armin was thanking Eren for being a mass murderer but more that he finally understood why Eren did what he did even though he fundamentally disagrees with it hence the line about it being an "Error." The bit after about why he'd do it anyway but doesn't know why ties into a theory about Eren's character: the man obsessed with freedom who was never free. He was a slave to fate, a slave to Ymir's will and in the end just moved forward. His desire for freedom was what allowed him to be the perfect tool to enact Ymir's plan. Again these are just my views on the chapter which came after a lot of musing over it (especially once the official translation came out as the fan typesets were pretty bad). There are definitely issues like you said: Historia being forgotten, Ymir's weird motivations etc. and I think the ending could have been a lot better if it stuck with the theme that was more present on the surface.
Honestly, I'm really interested in what Kyle's video will say eventually. I am still unsure about the chapter and wondering if things got lost in translation or something. My main question is: "What happened?" Like I really want to understand what Isayama was thinking or trying to do with this chapter. If he wanted to not "rush" the ending, surely he could have added 1 or 2 more chapters??? We can speculate that there were outside sources pressuring him to end it quickly, or in a certain way. But there is no evidence of that. Thus, I feel like we must assume that he ended it how he wanted. Yet, up until this point Isayama has seemed like a pretty careful writer and has undoubtedly thought about AoT more then anyone else. Idk, it just feels like people have jumped ship from saying "Yams is a Genius" to "Yams is a bad writer" way to quickly. Maybe I'm giving the man too much credit... I was thoroughly perplexed by this chapter initially. I never felt I had to assume much with AoT because I've always felt it was very explicit. Now it feels like its asking a lot from me... Anyway, it will be interesting to see what we all make of it in 1, 2, 5 years time once we had time to think. Maybe this is just a big mega IQ play by Isayama to get us discussing AoT for a much longer time...
@@JarkeyBacon I know what you mean. Considering how the story has been going and how many 10/10 chapters we've had it feels like there might be something I've missed in my interpretations although I am still reasonably happy with a lot of my thoughts. Kyle's video will be interesting for sure.
I think that's all valid, but like Jarkey said, it feels like it's asking a lot of me now. I am a busy woman with things to do ha, I don't have a lot of patience for any text that seems like it wants me to decipher it. There is leaving things open to interpretation, and then there is making your audience do your job for you. Thanks for the watch! And the thoughtful comment! I'm really hoping the show manages to flesh it out a little more. A few well-placed or altered lines could change everything
@@themorbidzoo oh yeah I agree there's definitely a shift in terms of expectations of the audience in the final chapter and even another few panels could have done wonders.
@@themorbidzoo I feel as though while AoT always fed you A plotline and story to follow, it's almost always been that you'd have to look deeper if you want to find the real story. Whether it's the Armored-Colossal reveal, the marley reveal, or the future-past reveal, the story has never fed you the true story until after it's completed. So to that end I'm not surprised the ending came out dense and confusing. I heard that there's gonna be a new chapter released though, so maybe that'll be the next big twist.
I can finally watch this now, but I'm curious to hear what you thought of the updated dialogue, much clearer tone, and "post story" time addition as shown in the adaptation!
I dropped a comment on the prior video about how Attack on Titan is a circular story - the first arc can very much be argued as pro-fascist (I wouldn't, I would say pro nationalism), but that's because the post-timeskip basically throws all of that in the audience's and character's faces. So yeah, it pretty much does outright say fascism is bad because... Well, Eren and the Rumbling happen. And very much absolutely, yes, I agree with all of your criticism of Attack on Titan. Sincerely believe that the author stumbled into all of this by accident, it blew up completely, and he had no idea how to end it. Anyway don't shut up and take my sub.
Amazing video, glad to have found the channel. I think there are some "rightish" things embedded in the show, and as other comments placed it, stuff that is more intrinsic with Japaneese problematic relationship with their own history (specially being a island nation being "threatened" by others), but even so it can be used as a discussion about said history (after all, he does not exempt the "history" of the eldians as a people that "in the past" opressed others), and is not glorifying it. As you said, there is a lot of nuance in both the Story and around the author. And I think the "marvelization" of politics and everything did not do any favours regarding treating everything as a "perfect good" and a "perfect bad", and ironically it affects a lot of so-called progressives that are all too quick to sum everything up to a tiny little box. Which is completely Ironic in itself, since this complete simplification, and the "friend-foe" mindset that can be all pointed out to be a fascistic or right-wing characteristic, is so easily spread out into the progressives, and even the ones that would criticize the nazi philosopher, are all to happy in indulge in the mindset if it means they can easily place something that don't neatly fit into their definition of "good" into the "box of bad things". And as an aside, a tangencial thing that is exemplified by this video is how discussions made on twitter don't make any favours regarding all this situation, it's a shitty platform that makes so that only the most simplistic of things and takes can be spread, it really fits well into the "marvelization of politics". Elon Musk is doing a great favour in running the platform into the ground.
Like tackling of history revisionism and how that deeply explored. Which i am pretty sure was intentional knowing what the group that abe was did to revision history of imperial japan, and not work it up. unlike germany who didnt imeatedly perfectly but did. And that theme is great tto explore.
I have my gripes with the ending, think it was great in theory but quite messy in execution. Glad that so far the anime has elevated a lot of parts that didn’t resonate well with the fandom (Hange’s death absolutely my fav moment of the anime, manga would have to be the entire see you later sequence, from the cabin to the kiss). So I’ve heard he admitted himself that he felt like he could have done much better with the anime and he is working alongside Mappa for the animation of the ending so I’m excited to see what improvements we might get!
@@MrBooone This was before the anime ending, which had everything come together much better. I always liked the ending but now I love it, I’m allowed to have my criticisms of the ending.
I'm a Malaysian Chinese descendant in Southeast Asia. I have still-living relatives who had personally gone through the horrors of Japanese occupation and Imperial Army propaganda firsthand. And yes, AoT is absolutely fascist, just not as westerners understand it. Japanese fascism operates on different rhetoric and context. And please, keep in mind that Japanese fascist and fascist-adjacent creators often do not need to code their fictional peoples as Japanese to propagate fascist ideas. So the Eldians aren't a Jewish analog. They're a nationalist/fascist Japanese analog.
@@KrisBailey It's a long explanation, but Lost Futures has a video essay going into detail to answer your question. Media Literacy is Dead: Attack on Titan is Still Fascist It is the opinion of the author, but Lost Futures does a deep dive on the history of late Imperial Japan and the exact question you asked.
The part that drives me nuts is that Gabi is RIGHT THERE. SHES THE EXAMPLE. She is a child who is apart of this cycle of violence who comes to realize that her enemies are part of this same fucked up ecosystem. All Isayama had to do was just let Eren be the bad guy, get killed for it and the let the tragedy of his actions play out. Instead we get this really muddy message and weird sympathy from his friends. Like most shows have the classic Act 2 confrontation that is a little contrived and friends of the character overreact a bit. Then we have AoT where their friend does a Genocide and they are all pouty about having to go against him I cannot put into words the way I feel about this
All opinions on the story are valid obviously, but its absolutely not fascist in anyway. I really appreciate how well you explain these things that i thought were obvious. AoT in my eyes is a classic tragedy. I feel its critics believe its a heros story and misinterpret the entire thing.
"The film industry has spent the last century perfecting how they can convince an audience to give them money. And the prevailing wisdom is that people won't give you very much money if you ask them to watch something that makes them feel confused about their beliefs." I know this video is 2+ years old but do you recall if one of the sources in the description discusses this? I am very interested. Thanks.
Ha thanks, I get annoyed when my work doesn't hold up, especially since if you miss information fandoms never let you forget it 😁 edit: also I just sent you an email
I had to pause after "The holocaust has been reproduced so many times and in so many different mediums that I worry that we’re now primed to understand it more as a story on a screen rather than as a thing that actually happened and needs to be prevented from happening again" - maybe the realest quote I've heard in so long. Thanks for examining this story's antifascist potential and how the ending frustratingly subverts the story that came before it. Amazing video!
I honestly have less of a problem with the series and more of a problem with people assuming everyone who likes Attack on Titan is a fascist and should be blocked if they show the slightest interest in it. As if everyone even agrees it's fascist (I don't) or even likes the ending (I also don't). Or people just pretending it wasn't a cool anime about people chopping up giant zombies before it ever tackled topics like anti-Semitism and the cycle of violence. Differing opinions, death of the author, and intentionally ignoring parts of canon you don't like are things that still exist and are valid ways of consuming media.
You make nuanced and nice videos. I used to read Attack on Titan but for one reason or another I stopped around the time they were fighting the internal police state on the island or something. It is weird since supression of science in the fact of monsters that modern day weapons like a Gunship would literally annihilate with zero resistance is ... kind of fun as an isea. I wonder if you'd want to do a vide on Come and See. Its a good movie. IMHO the best horror and war movie.
I could argue forever why AOT isn’t fascist but for me personally it has to do with the most profound and memorable message I gleaned from the story which is: (AOT Final Chapter Spoilers) I see the overall AOT story as a parable on human morality that I think is nicely summarized by a quote by Montesquieu: “A truly virtuous man would come to the aid of the most distant stranger as quickly as to his own friend. If men were perfectly virtuous, they wouldn’t have friends.” One of the most familiar tropes in fiction is “the gang of heroes” a certral group of characters we’re meant to identify with and see as friends, people we know and love just like we love our real friends and family. We feel sad when Sasha died bc our perspective as the viewer naturally came with real value for her life and a real sense of loss from knowing that she would be absent going forward. (Barely even thinking about the masses who had been slaughtered in the episodes leading up to her death) knowing Sasha as a character made us care about her death, rather than the fact that death and murder are bad in and of themselves. Reiner’s arc is about dealing with guilt for committing atrocities against the people of Paradise, the heroes have a hard time coping when the enemy is humans rather than titans, then again when the enemy is humans they knew as friends. Gabby vows to get revenge on the Eldians despite knowing that death and destruction is what pushed them to their breaking point of killing her people, she says this is because “she didn’t see it happen” She wasn’t attached to what had been taken when Reiner destroyed their home and killed their families, she only saw the suffering the Eldians imposed on her and her loved ones, and that’s what motivates her actions. We are given the perspective of some of the “enemies” and are made to understand and relate to their stories and see them as being people we easily could have been rooting for and relating to all along. Erin does the rumbling because of the love he has for his own friends and people, he is given all this power which proves to be a disaster because of his VERY HUMAN desire to protect the small group of people he personally loves AT the expense of literally ALL OF HUMANITY (contrasted with the earlier chapters where the viewer is made to believe “the hero is fighting on behalf of humanity, he is on the side of the greater good. We believe we are moral and would choose to do what’s good for eveyone only to realize in season 4 that maybe that was all a lie we told ourselves, maybe this virtuous thing we call “love” and the capacity to form human connections might lead to js committing horrific acts. Mikasa’s final decision whether or not to do the right thing and save all of humanity (all the people she will never know) comes at the price of the ONE person she loves most of all. AOT makes us think about ourselves as moral beings and consider the ways our arbitrary perspective and personal ties might truly be what shapes our views of good and evil. Of course “Good and evil depends on perspective” isn’t an original message, but AOT builds on it in a way that confronts and then offers a way out of the discomfort we feel when realizing that human morality in its broadest purest form deprives us of the one things that most defines us as humans beings to begin with: our capacity to bond with and love others. It chooses a utilitarian moral sentiment in the most human way possible and makes think hard about what the true right way go act is despite our personal emotional understanding of good as a concept. And that’s not something fascists think about. In fact I’d argue that this message is perhaps one of the biggest things fascists fail to understand. Which is why I’d not only say AOT isn’t fascist bc it lacks fascist messaging, but because what I regard to be its central theme is fundamentally antithetical to a fascist worldview.
My theory for Attack on Titan is that the author, when confronted with a choice between any character or story beat, simply went with the edgiest possible option he could think of. Since this is not conducive to a story, themes, or characters that make sense, he then had to retcon or fiat the worst of these mistakes. This process of can-kicking eventually caught up with him and it all collapsed. I think anything the show had that might resemble coherent themes were just coincidences of wanting to have an action anime with jetpacks, giant gross monsters, and a vaguely-European aesthetic while also making it as gory and edgy as possible. All that stuff that people watching this pick up on as subtext and thematic progression were just giving the creator far too much credit, unfortunately.
So glad I found your channel a few days ago, this video was really well structured and help answer many questions people have when talking about Isayama's intentions on the themes aot delves in. Overall a great video and can't help but notice the Murakami & Martel novels on the book shelf which are one of my favorite books and authors to read :). Can't wait to see what you make in the future!
I'm glad you did too! And happy to hear it worked for you, I tried to cover all the bases. Yes Kafka on the Shore is one of my favorite books :) Thanks for sticking around!
I feel like he got tired of writing AOT so he just tacked a ending onto it to bring it to an end quickly and that's why the tonal whiplash with the ending
The issue is - while Attack on Titan does tackle themes of war and oppression and tonnes of people latch onto that, it's ultimately about characters, ambition and stoic philosophy through a meta critique on the nature of films and escapism. Which - especially since it leant into it - meant that the ending turned out pretty bad with regards to those themes, philosophies and what it says about those situations exactly. It is ultimately is meant to be about abstaining from desire, Eren's being "freedom" or "genocide". The "Mikasa deus-ex-machina" is about that as well. She gave up her desire to be with Eren in order to do the virtuous thing and save the world. Erwin and Kenny are meant to be characters that set up the thesis of the series. Levi and Armin are the protagonists in this regard whereas Ymir is the antithesis. Someone who couldn't give up on her desires. Eren is the same. UNFORTUNATELY they rushed the shit out of it and didn't elaborate on any of the other stuff well. I think Armin saying the mass-murderer line was either meant to read non-literal or was just a way of "ending the conversation" in a way that was meant to tug on people's heartstrings cause "aww they're friends and now they have to say goodbye". I also don't think they are saying the Eldian empire is in the right - since Keith Shadis essentially said to the recruits "things are gonna go crazy nationalist but just lay low until you can make a move." and you can see the Blaus family (who are established to be in the moral high-ground most of the time) are shown in the back-ground of some kind of military exercise passing by looking depressed. Its also left unclear how the main characters feel about how things have gone since they don't comment on it, though. We don't hear anything from Historia's perspective either. I feel like you could have kept a lot of stuff from the ending and had it work but it would need to be extended a bit, elaborated on and have some changes (especially Armin and Eren's clumsy exchange where it's clear that Isayama didn't know how to explain Eren's character to the audience and didn't know how to make Armin wrap things up with him properly). (sorry if im not articulating my point well) Fantastic video. The discourse around Attack on Titan frustrates me between the self-proclaimed "sigma-male Jaegerists" and the gatekeepers. I just found your channel and i looked at your subscriber count and was shocked. I hope your channel becomes huge some day.
I think the anime fixed the ending overall it changed that conversation with eren and armin to read more like armin forgiving and loving his friend and feeling horrible for that but being unable to look past his love for eren also the thanks for murdering people for our sake is gone lol
I just decided to finish the ending in manga after finishing the last movie released, before the final one in August. Reading these comments and that pinned comment, with the addition of having to layer so many different analyses on many suspected assumptions we can’t confirm, plus comprehending the ending itself both narratively and thematically, my head just hurts This video made me feel stupid in a positive way though, I didn’t appreciate many of the story’s nuances and messages, to which I thought there was little to none. God how does one keep a critical brain on at all times it’s genuinely exhausting and I envy your skill so much LOL
I agree with you 100%. The ending is so out of place. When I saw someone argue that AoT fans are rooting for Eren when he starts the Rumbling and that Eren is seen as the good guy in the later seasons, I was furious. Because I think that the show makes it VERY CLEAR that Erens plan is absolutely disgusting and he needs to be stopped. Of course, Izayama messed up the ending, so… I am also convinced that most people who argue that AoT is fascist has never watched the show or read the manga. Like, it makes no sense to me. How are the Eldians fascist when they’re being treated just like the Jews were in Germany? Like, what??
@@themorbidzoo i feel attacked, I feel threatened, I feel this parasocial relationship is being ruined, and I feel like dropping a drone strike on that bell icon so I will thank you
I mean, I get what you are talking about with the racism argument, but I can't help but be reminded that, y'know, Japan was an Axis power. If this was a German production, wouldn't we be a little more skeptical of their cultural attitudes towards fictionalized WWII allegory?
I get what you’re saying, but I think it’s also important to acknowledge that many American shows and movies are made about issues we directly contributed to and they don’t get nearly the same amount of criticism. Morbid Zoo brings up Jojo Rabbit, and while America fought against Germany, they were also incredibly anti-semitic. The idea that America fought against Germany because we were morally outraged at their anti-semitism is just false- it was politics. And we not only were being incredibly anti-semitic during the war, we also put our own Japanese citizens in prison camps due to racist paranoia. Morbid Zoo isn’t saying that we shouldn’t be critical of AOT. She’s plenty critical of it in this video, analyzing the use of racial traits and commenting on the harms of Japanese schooling. However, I think she does have a point that many American fans are critical of Japanese media in a way they aren’t critical of our media (my experience as an American is based on the behavior of American fans, so I can’t speak for how this behavior manifests on non-American fans). We’re so eager to denounce a Japanese show for “maybe being fascist” while turning a blind eye to the ways our own media treats fascism and WWII. Out of all of the movies about WWII made in America, how many have talked about the Japanese internment camps? The Biscari massacre? Some might acknowledge our own anti-Semitism, but certainly not the majority. Why aren’t we as critical of our own media as we are of Japanese media? It’s certainly not that there’s nothing in American media to criticize. TLDR: I think we should be suspicious of Japanese media about fascism, but I think many American fans in particular would rather be disproportionally harsh and critical of Japanese media then be critical of our own media. Morbid Zoo isn’t saying we should ignore potential flaws in AOT, she’s saying we should be more aware of whether we specifically go into Japanese media looking for flaws because of biases we have.
The "nose argument" and then cutting to the Titan with its nose in the ground ajhgfsjdk I am super behind on all things AOT (last season I watched was S2 I think?); it made me sad (not because of the twitter discourse but because of characters I loved dying T-T) but YOUR ANALYSIS IS SO THOUGHTFUL AND I LOVE IT. I deeply agree with your analysis beginning at 20:55 and it's part of why I will read almost any genre but I'm not super invested in WWII historical novels. The Holocaust feels too close to be a "story" for me personally I guess.
Even with the warning at the beginning, having read and watched everything from SNK so far, it was difficult to watch the argument part in defense of the series that, as much as it (the argument section) makes perfect sense, the ending that Isayama gave us left a taste so bitter, so dangerous, so irresponsible... that bro, I don't even know how to end this comment, but yeah, almost 10 years of promises
I still can't believe that out of the two options, Zeke's was morally the better choice. At least in terms of outcome. Man I am not a fan of the Manga ending
Great stuff, I’ve been missing a solid media reviewer that’s willing to dive into the deep end for a while now. Thank you for the videos they’re really engaging and thoughtful. Sorry the author on this one kinda dunked on the take so drastically. I think the interpretation that sometimes art outgrows the narrative intention of the author is a really interesting idea. Especially when fame and critical acclaim are introduced to the equation. Anywhos, keep up the good work! Looking forward to another video.
1:12 The irony of scholars not wanting to refer to priming for fear of misinterpretation is chef's kiss-worthy irony, I really have to say. If they didn't perceive it to be accurate on some level they would have no such misgiving, since they're consciously stepping around the very mechanism they ostensibly don't believe exists.
Depiction ≠ endorsement and most of the fandom cannot recognize that. I loved the ending though. It made sense to me. The ending of aot was never going to be happy. It came off as extremely bittersweet and i appreciated that. Yes i will admit the writing couldve been better and it was a tad rushed but i believe the anime will fix that. Isayama has said that the anime is the final work and the manga is just the rough draft. So im going to be hoping that the anime does the ending justice.
So I'm not an AoT fan and really only know it from cultural osmosis, but I did enjoy this as it helped provide some greater nuance to discussions I've seen. It does appear to maybe have a touch of the American History X issue, where it's ripe for fash exploitation, but so is Star Wars and Pepe the Frog. So you can't just assume fash because someone has a Mikasa PFP. But I do wonder if there's a level of analysis just on "the Finale Problem". The issue so many series have with landing the whole noxious thing at the end. Even Tolkien didn't have a CLEAN landing. Took him three passes before he got it on the ground. I wonder if the creator got gun shy at the last second of damning these characters that his fans love. That if he did leave Eren as just ending up a supremely awful shit human being, fans would riot because, no matter what he'd done these fans had become attached to him. Because I am also made to think of all the shit Hideaki Anno was put through with his Evangelion ending, and then the next ending. And then the ending after that. Each one seemingly growing almost explicitly resentful of the obsessive fans. Or even just a level of anxiety and frustration that boiled over as the finish line was approaching and he just had an almost "fuck it, I quit" reaction. He just kinda stopped trying and just wanted to be rid of the cursed thing.
reading the manga, it is genuinely impossible for me to come to the conclusion that eren was redeemed. i will agree that the dialogue should have gotten some more room to breathe like it did in the anime adaptation, but it still didn't redeem him. eren died a monster in both. its just in the manga, isayama didn't write the same dialogue as he did for the actual finale. in the manga armin just says goodbye to his friend and thats what the "thank you" was for, in the anime armin lives on as a monster on equal footing with eren. also the mikasa deus ex machina being out of left field is a weird argument to make, considering that the story literally starts with the line "see you later, eren" which is what she says to him before she unalives him. like it her being tied to the ending had very much been set up since the beginning, it was just subtle and in the background. mikasa's imagery with the praying mantis was set up for her and erens story
i know nothing about attack on titan and hearing “if the eldians are so dangerous how come the tibers get to keep the warhammer titan” felt like i was having a stroke, or hearing some one speaking simlish.
No matter how many anime reviews exist out there, no mater how good the points made in them are, at the end of the day it has ZERO effect on the anime industry. International audience, although important commercially, is always secondary for anime producers or japanese writers in any format. They make it for themselves first and foremost.
As someone who read the manga when it released, I totally understand where you’re coming from with your stance on the ending, for the longest time I felt the same way. I think though, especially now that we have the anime/canon ending for comparison, we can safely say that the original intent of the ending was lost in translation. The scene between Eren and Armin is not supposed to be a way to redeem Eren’s character, but rather to give the audience insight into his headspace, what was driving Eren to do what he did in the final season. After all, despite being the series protagonist for the first three seasons, it’s only natural that when he had stopped being our focal lead in the final season we would need some sort of explanation for the finale. While the show doesn’t make everything as crystal clear as most would like, which is incredibly Attack on Titan, it is still heavily implied that Eren, despite his reasonings, was in the wrong. Armin practically says as much, and Eren doesn’t argue with his assessment, even going so far as to call himself an idiot who by chance acquired immense power. I think it’s also clear that Eren doesn’t even know whether he is in control anymore, the nature of the attack titan has scrambled his brain, and he has essentially become a slave to his childish ideal world, a world which Armin had helped to create in his mind. For this reason, Armin also accepts blame. He feels responsible for driving his childhood friend down this path, whether intentionally or not. Again this does not excuse Eren, but rather places part of the blame on the expectations of the world others had planted in his mind. In short, this scene serves not only to cement that Eren was undoubtedly in the wrong, but also to demonstrate how social structures create the conditions for figures like Eren to be to be born.
not sure how much of that worked in the manga but the show now ends with 1. someone killing someone they love in order to stop a genocide cause its the right thing to do 2. someone being seen by parts of the cast as a "heroic leader figure" calling themselves and idiot 3. the surviving protagonists returning to their former home as diplomats trying to argue for peace between their former home nad hteir former enemies, scared that their own people might just sink their ship but they have to at least try of course throughout plottwists upon plottwists it was never clear it would end that way beforehand but thats how it ends compared to that almost every other big fantasy epos seems to be much more in agreement with a clear friend or enemy distinction also theres these great post timeskip moments where you see children who clearly looked up to the protagonists grow up to become soldiers as well and then die utterly pointless deaths, some of them at the protagonists own hands
You know, I live in Pennsylvania and revisionist "State's Rights" was taught here as well. I thought it was a little weird that I hadn't ever heard it that way till that class came up but being a kid you don't assume propaganda is going to be taught in school but I guess a lot of propaganda is.
"Fellas, is it antisemitic to draw people with average-sized noses?" 🙄🙄 I thought maybe it was a one-off thing but no, it was in most of the "AoT is fascist" thinkpieces I read. Embarrassing. Thanks for the watch!! ❤
The nose is my favorite because it's like "everything on a body can be fucked with. Except the noses, because otherwise it's antisemitic 😃!" Being a jew and seeing this makes me laugh but also pains me to tears
i watched it, i agreed with it, then i watched the ending and it moved me in some ways. how do we portray the fact that we know our loved ones should be cast out for what they did but we really really dont want to do it. how do we deal with that. how do we deal with things like that being irreversible
Was that line in the anime? Can't remember Armin thanking Eren for going, errm, mass murdery... I saw the last season of AoT sick and severely sleep deprived, and after the last ep. I had the same feeling I had after I saw Full Metal Jacket and Requiem for a Dream. (Not comparing them, calm down..) A mixed feeling of, "That was good, glad I watched it" and "Fuck no, one viewing is enough"... I need to find the book club equivalent of anime shows to find people to talk about these things... Algorithm engagement served.
Eren's """redemption""" in the show works way better for me, just by adding ambiguity to why he did anything he did. AoT spends its entire runtime pointing at different people as the most scum bastards in the entire world that the audience wants to see eaten & turned into meaty pulp, then you find out that actually these other scum bastards are even worse, etc, before finally settling on eren, the most scum bastard of them all. I think the most fitting ending is to spend the last chapter undermining the stability we get from having an ontological enemy one last time
Actually, Marleans have an Latin/Italian Code name ( Theo Magath, Nicolo, Elena etc ), supposed to depicted the duality between the German people and the Roman Empire in Ymir period, the Eldians being a Germanic Tribe going agains the greatest empire of their period Roman/Marleans
Only halfway through the video. (And small note - I have only watched the anime and am now realizing while typing, that you mainly refer to the manga. So that's something to keep in mind.) I think your points are interesting and I agree with most of them. However, the Eldians are not necessarily just the heroes of the story. Most of them are oppressed and a lot of them are heroes and trying to save the world from Eren. However, they are also the Yaegerists and the Restorationists, who think along the lines of Eldian superiority. In the end, there really are no heroes in AOT in my opinion. I also want to acknowledge that the anime does not present any good/peaceful alternatives. I neither think the anime absolutely needs to include those nor is it fascist because it doesn't. The point is that the characters are faced with choices without good solutions. However, it's interesting to discuss why more hopeful/optimistic narrative choices were not made. Edit: Whoops, one second later you said that it's unclear which side in AOT corresponds to which side in history.
My interpretation was that, that moment where Armen thanks Eren is the penultimate “Gotcha!” Because its a reveal that even beautiful and sweet Armen is a genocider too. That just because he’s kind and beautiful and sensitive doesn’t mean he too isn’t a genocidal monster who killed millions of people. But I get why people would see it as excusing and glorifying Eren.
I’m an anime only watcher and while I know what happens at the end (vaguely) it seems pretty clear to me at this point that the Jaegerists and Eren are clearly the bad guys, though it kind of seems like they’re only depicted as bad because they went too far in their violence, not that the violence already committed, say the attack on the capital of Marley, was justified or good or necessary in achieving peace/safety for the Eldians.
@@PengyDrawsThank you. Eren's attack on Marley was NOT what the Survey Corps wanted, most of them agree it was horrible, and they literally imprison Eren while planning to possibly EXECUTE him for doing so. It is condemned explicitly and is meant to be a cometary on the cycle of violence. Also, it's shown at the end of Season 4 that the Eldians were actively making plans to talk it out until Eren went rogue on them. Eren and his supporters are also explicitly condemned as well. AOT is a series that leads to a lot of different interpretations, but these two things are literally shoved into our faces.
I'm really not convinced that admiring a brutal fascist for being "frugal" necessarily absolves someone of admiring a fascist. I can walk around my town and find a fee dozen frugal people who one could admire for their frugality. When you have all the people in the world to admire, and you pick a fascist war criminal, you're telling on yourself. This is just one example of the problem with this video. Overall, I think it is easy to make a case that the show doesn't have fascist subtext, if you pick all of the weakest and worst-reasoned arguments from the other side in order to make your point. You haven't proved to me that I shouldn't think of the narrative as fascist; you've only really made a case that these specific individuals had bad arguments.
If you think there is strawmanning here, then provide an example of a stronger argument. I thought the issue of admiration was well addressed with the argument concerning Japanese education. Nearly every major power glosses over the uglier parts of its history and has "heroes" that would be regarded as dreadful by any non partisan observer. British school children barely learn about the British Empire, and certainly not the worst bits of it, and yet many of our nation heroes - Churchill springs to mind - are people who played a critical role in some of the horrors the BE inflicted. Is someone, ignorant of the role that Churchill played in, say, the Bengali famine, a fascist or fascist sympathiser? Don't be ridiculous. They are just poorly informed. And before anyone decides to say that it is their responsibility to inform themselves - epistemological Thatcherism is not a good look. It takes a education system to educate a nation, not an ideology of "knowledge personal responsibility".
The important thing about this anime & manga is that it is art. Art can be interpreted in many ways, and the way it is interpreted says much more about the beholder of the art than it does of the artist. Rarely is the artist view of their art correctly interpreted by the beholders, but the artist also doesnt have authority to force their interpretation on the beholder. I have watched this through one time, minus the final two episodes. I would say from what i have seen, regardless of the ending, this isnt pro facism. People can certainly interpret it that way. This show had a reoccuring idea that in my opinion was pointing out that people must be more understanding of other people, the views they hold, and why they hold those views. Towards the end you see that the views of the characters while justified in their own eyes are often misunderstood by their opposition. Fear drives men to do wicked things and understanding can bring peace. Something said many times in this show is that "we are just people like you" or something along those lines. The show highlighted all that is wrong with humanity. It also highlighted some of our better aspects. In the end you the viewer get to decide what you hold onto with this art. Do you cling to the fact that the hero at the start became a genocidal maniac and the villain? Or do you see what brought him to that point, and see the message that someone can become evil when they are put into a situation where they dont see any way out? He was the hero, and what made him heroic on the island was his willingness to defend everyone and kill every last enemy. He says this in the first season, and throughout the show. Only when his enemies are given a "human face" does he start to look like a villain. His ideals didnt change. We should also remember he attacked his enemies with the same end goal his enemies had for him. To wipe every last one of them out. Is it evil to not just defend yourself but eliminate a threat? To make sure your enemy cannot harm you again because they are no more? Its an interesting question. Another interesting question is as follows: is taking the moral high ground worth it, if you dont continue on? At the end of the day people arent evil and they arent good. They are just people trying to live life as best they can. Anyways thats my 2 cents.
Wonderfully put. It is 100% on the individual when it comes to how they perceive this story. Personally, in my opinion, Eren by the end is not evil, but the rumbling is an evil act. Not only because of the action itself, but because of the circumstances and the reasoning behind it. By that I mean that because it was carried out out of hatred and revenge, I believe it is an act of evil, even though Eren is not an evil person. I believe that the rumbling can’t be justified, the same way the attack in the very beginning that kickstarted the story can’t be justified. Ultimately the reasons for both attacks were for each side to survive. Marley thought if they didn’t eradicate Eldians, they’d all be killed. Eren thought if he didn’t eradicate everyone that wasn’t Eldian, they’d all be killed. Their loved ones, their dreams, their homes, their pets, their homelands, all of them feared losing it all. Are the people that perpetuate the cycle of violence over this thousands of years long conflict idiots? Yes. Is the history and reasoning of the conflict nonsensical? Yes. But the reality around them of course still impacts them. It’s up to them how they handle that reality. Eren handled it by using the power of the founder to try to destroy humanity. And in my opinion, even with the circumstances he was faced with, the trauma he was dealt, and the fact that he couldn’t change the memories he saw, it is still an act of evil. Brought on by an entire history of evil. The worst of humanity, bringing out the worst of humanity. Just my opinion though!
I was able to follow the series in the beginning but then the story got so insanely convoluted for me.... so many characters, characters that started looking alike, flashbacks/scene nonsequitors, characters changing affilliations all over the place... who''s'' good', who''s 'bad' at the moment, then all these different 'groups' of peoples who' are all fighting against each other that I couldn''t keep track of how or why anymore. Then there's the final chapters of sorts that I have no idea what all that was supposed to finalize. Hey if any of you could make heads or tales out of this show, you're a genius afaik, lol.
Just watched the show. Couldn’t agree more. Armin is so out of character too. Like yeah Armin has an attachment to Eren but Armin believes in justice first. I could never see him saying the words he did. Mikasa maybe bc of her seemingly lack of autonomy over her own fixation with Eren. Bleh. I was even willing to stomach it until the “I wanted to do it” like stoppppp pick a laneeeee ahhhhhh
The bit about even a borderless painting being defined by where the artist decided to stop painting is pretty poignant when considering where and how the manga ended.
6:30 I love this because LotR kinda was a sleeper hit! Published in 1954 to mixed reception, with a few critics enthusiastic, it didn't become a cultural phenomenon until the middle 60s! Love it
Thank you for your video, I agree with a lot of your points. What I think did get lost in translation might be some of the references to Japanese history and common current mindsets in Japan.
You mention how it is not easy to identify whether the Eldians are supposed to represent Germans or Jews. Actually I think they are supposed to represent the Japanese .. and that is not a good thing.
A summary of 'sakoku' in Japanese history:
Medieval Japan (think Samurai-Era) felt threatened by trade from Europe (Portuguese, Dutch..) who also tried to bring Christianity to Japan. The feudal government at some point closed of the Japanese borders completely and only allowed very limited contact to the outside world. I hope the parallels to Eldians on Paradis Island are obvious enough. Interestingly, many Japanese feel that this step was not a free choice but a last resort to protect Japanese interests. As we all know, the Industrial revolution brought on a rapid technological advance in the western world. Japan was closed off for about 200 years, until the US decided that they were going to force Japan into opening their borders - with their advanced weapons. Just like Paradis is confronted with being wiped out by their soon to be technologically advanced enemies.
Japan during WWII and ethnic uniqueness:
In Japan during WWII there was a strong propaganda to create the belief that there is an inherent Japanese-ness which is still prevalent today, not only with far-right activists. If you study any Japanese art you often come across the mindset, that only Japanese might ever be able to fully understand that certain art - simply because they are Japanese, and outsiders may never reach that level.
In AOT the Eldians are genetically different from the rest of the world.
Contemporary Japanese views on WWII:
The Japanese school system does not include a lot of WWII lessons. So for most regular Japanese citizens, their knowledge about WWII and especially the war crimes is not very broad. This strenghtens opinions like 'my generations has had nothing to do with this war, so there is no reason for apologies or reparations nowadays' or 'It's all in the past and has nothing to do with today'. Even though there are still ongoing conflicts (e.g. South Korea and sexual slavery, euphemically called the 'comfort women issue').
Such beliefs foster a victim mentality. And in the case of AOT, I fear this was translated into showing the Eldians as being discriminated against - comparing them to how the Jews were discriminated. Which would be quite a sickening comparison.
To sum it up, Isayama did portray the Eldians as being on an island nation that is technologically not as advanced as the rest and is thus confronted with an outside threat of being eliminated. This is so close to actual Japanese history that it is not far-fetched to think that Isayama is protraying Eldians as Japanese. Isayama also portrays Eldians as the victims of discrimination, going so far as to bring in themes of how the Jews were treated during WWII.
I think the ending actually made it clear that Isayama - even though he might not be a full on right-wing nationalist - is leaning towards some of the arguments that are right-wing. The ending shows that Armin sympathizes with Eren's decision - because he did it 'for the greater good'. Being a fascist does not only mean being cruel just for the sake of being cruel - it also means to justify cruel actions by it being for a greater good. And that I think is exactly what the ending of Attack on Titan is doing.
I too have been defending AOT since the beginning. But rewatching the series now, I feel like I interpreted many things too liberal, because that was what I wanted to see. Take that scene, where so many refugees are sent back outside the walls because the government was afraid of a food shortage. Reviewing that scene I think there is already an undertone of it being for 'the greater good', of it being a necessary evil and thus - justifying such a horrenduous act.
Same goes with the scene where Erwin decides to order his soldiers to give their lives, just for Levi to have a chance to attack Zeke. Rewatching this scene, I think it actually was portrayed again as a necessary evil. And that would be fascist. Just like how in real Japan during WWII air pilots were ordered to fly their planes right into the enemy, the infamous Kamikaze.
I'm sorry this got so long, no one I know watches the show and I needed an outlet for all of my thoughts after reading the last chapter of the manga.
I think if you consider these points, the ending should not have come as such a big surprise. I really should have seen it coming unfortunately...
This makes much, much, much more sense, and taking all of this into consideration, I think you're right. Everything clicks into place with this analysis without having to parse the minutiae of the word-by-word translation of what Armin says.
I think there's such thing as being right for the wrong reasons. Analyzing AoT as a World War II allegory as westerners understand the term (Germans vs. Jews with Americans on the right side of history) is transparently wrong, for the reasons I outline in the video. I think this "the Eldians are obviously Jews" thing is still bonkers, and I'd rather be told the precise flavor of fascism that's being peddled here, which you just perfectly laid out, than assume every country in the world makes their media specifically for a Western audience, which is something Americans take for granted after generations of propaganda insisting upon our outsize importance. I think it's worth leaning into the impulse of "no, that analysis doesn't seem right, because of x, y, z," if only so we can come to a better understanding of the complications and diversities of perspective in the world, even if (especially if) those perspectives are just different flavors of humankind's worst impulses.
Anyway, I'm pinning this comment, thanks for your input.
@@themorbidzoo If you want another popular example of manga/anime manifesting the cringiest bits of Japan's WWII victim complex, look no further than Code Geass. It's not even a tiny bit subtle.
@@lmno2009 so I’ve heard. I’ll check it out.
The main problem I have with this is that Armin doesn’t agree with Eren’s decision, he straight up calls it an “Error”. He still comforts Eren because they’re friends, but he doesn’t think the Rumbling was good.
Also I’d like to point out that both Isayama and his editor have expressed disappointment that so many people side with Eren and the Jaegerists in season 4, as they’re meant to be the villains.
@@Ismael-kc3ry Yeah, you do know that one of the main points of right wingers is saying Hitler/Mussolini/insert random fascist dictator did many good things and some errors? The problem is that in the story there is no counter argument to fascist view and the freakin' moral compass doesn't even re-evaluate his "friend" after he commits a freakin' genocide. That would be a no-no for me
I was haunted by how the author dropped the ball on what could have been a powerful message about the cycle of violence. I was not expecting meat cake. Great analysis
So you don't like the ending?
@@umairashraf5167I thought it was a powerful message on it
Its not even it ending in tragedy, but the framing being very strange. Why not keep it the simple, eren couldnt stop and we saw that as good, but it with trauma and hate, gets you here. If you dont reflect on it.
why the hell that supernatural and fate was needed to muddle that :(
"yoy can come back when the series ends"
2 YEARS, I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR 2 YEARS.
The convo between Eren and Armin in the anime was seems very different. It felt like Eren wasn’t redeemed at all, and the only thing close enough to that was that Armin says “hey bro, I also committed genocide.” Eren seemed pathetic and unworthy of even his closest friends.
I’ve since read the last chapters of the manga since I was anime only, and I personally believe the anime made a great improvement.
The anime absolutely corrected the problem with the manga imo
Man, I think the entire story in the anime is great. I just don't get how and why people even think to side with Eren and characters like Floch in the final season... just why? But hey, you can say that this show might have just revealed what the viewers' moral values are.
I'd be interested to hear your take on the anime ending. While it's not majorly different the dialogue has been changed up, and I personally think it better expresses what I assume Iseyama's original intent was. It feels much less icky.
one thing I'm so annoyed with about the discourse of analogy in any show is the assumption that if one thing represents something in real life in one way, then it's a 1:1 representation. Sure such analogy exists in fiction (see Aslan as an analogy of Jesus), but there are many examples of things that are analogous in some ways (Gandalf was an analogy of Jesus in some points, an analogy of angels in others; and later in the story Aragorn seems more of the analogy of Jesus).
Yessss stories are amalgamations of cultural symbols, not direct representations!
I think so much discussion about Attack on Titan misses the mark by focusing almost exclusively on its Western inspirations, whilst treating its Eastern influences as trope-ish or pointless--relegated to a marketable aesthetic feature or "anime nonsense."
Like, Attack on Titan is as much a Kaiju manga, as it is a war manga, as it is a shounen manga.
Maybe it's because it's so normalized to expect from Japanese culture, but I think it's a mistake to ignore so much of the Kaiju influence in Attack on Titan.
Like, we take for granted that the Titans are titans; why not Zombies, or Vampires, or anything else that could be described as a plague, or an allegory for the demonization of Jews? It's because they're Godzilla, and by extension, because the Titans (like all Kaiju media) are a tangential allegory for the atomic bomb.
Which is the unique Japanese irony of the story being told; the Eldians are both the source of mass destruction, and its victim. The Titans are a dangerous enemy to everyone which is only wielded out of a perceived necessity of prevention from an opposing party. They're a self-fulfilling prophecy that harms everyone equally for their existence, yet can't help but perpetuate themselves--both the tool of the oppressed, and the oppressor.
The Rumbling is treated as an inevitable result of human error, steered by Eren into a vehicle for change; what Eren actually did of his own volition, his only freedom, was give his friends the tools to be the actual heroes that save all of mankind. The point that the show is making, through the Japanese shounen tropes that it encapsulates in Eren, is that you can't wield an oppressive force in order to protect yourself from it. That Eren--as a shounen power fantasy--is destined to original sin, and an inescapable fate as an oppressor.
I think it's a mischaracterization to say that Armin is glad that 80% of the population is dead--he's actually pretty fucking horrified that happened. What he's thanked for is that the Rumbling gave Armin the chance to live and finally do good, without the burden of being responsible for mass murder.
Importantly, Eren's violence itself isn't glamourous, but pitiable; his wielding of power is, for a portion, entertained as masterful throughout the later parts of the series--this attractive, horrifying fascist icon of power and strength, but is ultimately revealed to be a face he puts on to protect himself from the shame, the guilt, of having been turned into a monster--both by his father, but ultimately himself.
Japanese media deals, a lot, with the existentialism of power in general, but nukes in specific. The idea that we're all gonna blow each other up, eventually, for whatever reason. Not just "the cycle of violence", but the specific, inevitable experience of marching towards your own destruction--powerless to alter fate.
Eren is, within the tropes of the fiction, Godzilla; a pitiable monster who stumbles to his inevitable death, but not before destroying everything living thing in its wake. Uri Reiss (and the other wielders of the Founding Titan) is the traditionalist Japanese establishment--who protects Japan by laying the reprecussions of untold generations of trauma onto his people as an act of spiritual redemption, but ultimate doom. Armin is the youthful Japanese--who will rise to action and defend themselves from a disaster that was bred from a collective shirking of responsibility onto the later generation. It all reads, once gathered in the fuller context of the story, as a pretty paint-by-numbers Godzilla narrative.
The twist that Attack on Titan introduces to the tropes is that everybody else is Godzilla too--that everybody under the control of history and culture has the capacity to become a pitiable, destructive force, powered by rhetoric and harmed by cognitive dissonance.
I don't think Eren is redeemed by any version of the ending, instead he's comforted by a close net of friends who recognize the tragedy of being Eren Jaeger--a man born into a role he could not escape, no matter how much he tried.
Like, I just think it's weird that people discuss the ending of Eren's character arc like it's a story of redemption, when a part of that scene is Eren literally revealing that he killed his own mother, and is thus responsible for most of his own pain. I literally can't imagine a more direct way to lay blame for a situation than "you ruined your own life" being one of the final plot points.
For what it's worth, I do think the anime translated the point of the scene in a much less... let's say 'rushed' way? I like the whole "we're both going to hell" vibe of brotherhood through shared trauma and responsibility--it emphasizes Armin's role as supporting protagonist well, and also reads a lot better as comfort for Eren. It also focuses the original "Thank you for becoming a mass murderer" line on how he's thankful for the opportunity to live that Eren gave him, and not the literal murder he committed for his sake--you miss a little bit of the lampshaded exploitation aspect that way, but it supports the bittersweetness of a final goodbye scene way better, so I understand it.
Cheers, appreciate someone putting my frustrated thoughts better into words than I could have done myself
@@Practicallypreposterous Yeah, It's just frustrating to see people say they're open to a non-western lens of Attack on Titan (and other Japanese media), only to then interpret it through an uncharitable western understanding of a Japanese lens instead.
Like, I'm sure they think they're helping give people more perspective of culture, but if we're not even going to bring one of the major genres of the show into the spotlight for analysis, then I question your bias.
The final part of the anime actually fixed some of the dialogue issues from the final manga chapter and does stay in a better line with the themes. And that thanking Eren for being a mass murderer line had to have been a rush job because that line is nowhere in the anime episode. So, do give the finale a chance as it sticks to the roots of the theme it started with and does deliver.
Rush job? wtf so rush the most important dialogue about genocide like it ain’t no thing
@@badmanjosh6091 I mean yeah sadly that is what happened in the manga and everyone hated it, for very obvious reasons. But even the creator stated he felt he was pigeonholed into doing that. Idk. But the anime version has Armin acknowledging that both him and Eren are at fault for the genocide Eren caused. So it’s certainly an improvement from how he had Armin thanking Eren in the manga
Attack on Titan has the exact same attitude toward fascism as Warhammer 40k. They never deliberately portray it as good, but they always portray it as inevitable.
AH! IM GLAD YOU MENTIONED THE ENDING. your points are interesting and debunked my ideas on the series (mainly the genetic inferiority eldians are a threat thing), but i WAS waiting the whole time like "are we gonna mention the redemption of eren are we gonna talk about the way the fandom idolizes eren despite the ending are we gonna mention it are we gonna mention the ending are we gonna mention armins mass murderer line are we gonna talk about it please talk about it i need someone to talk about it" Every time i see someone online who unironically calls themself a jaegerist, i piss myself.
Ha, thanks for the watch! Yes, it was very disappointing and doesn't ask the audience to interrogate their own impulses like I hoped it would and I think I'll just die now
@@themorbidzooSaw the Thing and Babadook analyses and was a big fan. I saw your earlier AoT defense and was a bit confused, although not because of how it ended. I tried to give AoT a shot six years ago or so, and I just couldn't get into it. The conflict itself, from the beginning, and the character responses to it, seemed self-indulgent, glorifying war with a real "oh shucks, I guess I have to kick some ass, even though I'm really just peaceful" vibe. I admit to never having watched beyond episode 2, season 1, so I can't speak any further to the IP, but I find this whole debate fascinating.
Is there something in this style of conflict writing where the violence is fetishized? I mean this for both the good guys and bad guys, viewer and author. Is it really surprising that the show ended with an angry boy who loved to give into his rage to follow his own computer, was forgiven and canonized for doing that on a huge scale? If you just watch the first two episodes and see how the whole conflict is framed (inescapable) and how the heroes respond (with rage overcoming fear), it just tracks that the creator is not going to get that far away from these ideas.
I spent 11 years in the army, and I found that most enemies don't exist. Conflicts like this don't exist. At least, they are not facts of nature, but rather constructions of psychology. You mentioned that AoT is framed primarily as a Man vs. Nature for most of the show, but the 'Nature' element is a grotesque human. Is that not, in itself, telling of the author's ideology? "I am scared, I should not be scared but brave, but it is natural to be scared because it is our dark natures we are fighting, so I will be brave against our darkness. Bravery is rage, it is survival, it is rooting out the shadow." This, in and of itself is very....colonial? Fascist? I don't really subscribe to either name, but I do really key on the idea that there is something to fear, and it is always there, waiting. However the series might play on cycles of violence perpetuating itself, I think it's critical to note that the series likely didn't have it's entire course plotted beforehand, and so it must have begun as the desire to deal with themes found in the first few events. In other words: the author chose to create this world, to frame a society in this conflict, instead of not. And at the time, he didn't need an end, because his initial art was to express those feelings.
If I keep going, I'll probably just start repeating myself, so I'll truncate it here.
This is the perfect example of my feelings about this story. It’s really really good and its themes, if not all of its plot points, are very well written… up until literally its last few minutes/pages. It’s not fascist apologia or anything it actually makes a great case for how wars and atrocities sustain themselves through human suffering and weakness… up until it’s ending. I don’t think Iseyama is a war criminal apologist, I just think he’s a talented if irresponsible writer. Ultimately the anime did handle the ending far better through a few changes in the dialogue but Eren’s 11th hour redemption was not necessarily. His character was already a well conceived tragedy and didn’t need any further development. But at least Armin doesn’t thank him for his war crimes lol so that’s a plus. Anyway still an 8/10 minus the ending.
I don't really see the argument of how Eren is in any war a criminal apologist. The only reason he didn't kill the entire world was because he wanted his friends to live, and because he didn't want conflict be resolved by him. There is absolutely nothing Eren does right in the ending, and the entire manga agrees with that, Eren himself says it was out of emotion. I genuinely think Isayama put that Armin line in the manga because he didn't want the audience to forget Eren is literally a pathetic kid who was dealt the biggest power in the whole world, and who doesn't deserve to go out as a monster regardless of what he did, because he's literally the byproduct of all the war the manga is against
so one of the things I thought about at the end of the anime was when Erin says explicitly that he wanted to see all those people killed. I don't think its an endorsement of what he did or even a justification. It was a action out of anger which was allowed to fester more and more throughout the series. Erin was a product of his environment, which will cause more to be just as angry as he was and do the same thing. its a cycle of violence that started all the way back to the founder ymir, and will continue. If you watched the end credits clips, eladia was destroyed by nuclear fire. really no different than the rumbling. I don't think its trying to say that mass genocide is justified, its that you can use genocide to falsely justify more genocide.
@@b_delta9725 okay but consider that what you are describing is war crime apologia. He does deserve to go out as a monster because he killed a massive portion of all of humanity. There is no mitigating circumstance that makes you not a monster if you do that.
@@Sobepome Why? Reiner killed so many people yet he doesn't die and lives a good life. Nobody has a problem with that because he was a troubled kid thrown into war. Eren was thrice as troubled.
I resoundly disagree. AOT might as well be "Fascist Apologia" the animation.
It's funny how just this morning I was thinking about how I can barely remember any factual knowledge I had 10 years ago or even one year ago even though I was a straight A student. But I still remember feelings and stories from even my childhood vividly.
I feel like arguing that the show itself it pro-fascist is just such a weird take. By Season 4, is Eren a reactionary fascist? Absolutely. But he's also pretty clearly vilified. If AoT is making fascism look like a good and moral system, then The Dark Knight's Joker makes Christopher Nolan look like a violent anarchist.
I don't think he's vilified enough though. Same goes for Floch, imho the most vile and fascist character of the whole Last Season, whose actions really aren't addressed that much.
@@andrewcgs Totally fair. I personally felt like it was obvious that Eren was in the wrong and that his screen time was showing him stooping lower than the Marleyans ever did, becoming what he swore to destroy, etc. But giving him and the Jaegerists and especially Floch plenty of background and presenting them as flawed human beings (capable of evil, but still human beings) did a lot of work to generate sympathy for them. And especially the fact that, by the finale, no one seems to outright hate Eren except for maybe Levi. Everyone else feels like killing Eren is something that Eren is forcing them to do, but it's not something that they would have done if they had been given any other choice, as if Eren at that point is still worthy of any sympathy. I wanna say that AoT is just outright bad, given that the main character ends up being a genocidal man-child. That said, I can't say that the show hasn't done a lot to get people talking about the main messages that the show brings up (at least in the beginning) about what it means to be happy, satisfied, free, and what people are willing to do to achieve that. Even if the show had to "sacrifice" real world public opinion of its main character in order to really get that point across. Like maybe the show's ending was bad on purpose. Idk. I like that it's at least sparking some interesting conversations.
@@andrewcgstheyre both loterally killed by their compatriots. I think that's certain vilification.
That's a great point.@@majeedmamah7457
@@brenudo997 Yet there are a whole bunch of people who defend his actions. When in result in the absolute worst possible outcome.
this has been on my mind a lot recently and the thumbnail is relatable, head do be hurting thinking about it. really excited to hear your thoughts.
Thanks for watch the head do hurt ow
Another fantastic video, as per usual.
One thing I wanted to comment on was the last chapter. Ever since the last chapter came out a week ago, I have been racking my brain trying to figure out what the hell happened. I share quite a few of your criticisms of it (especially the Ymir-Mikasa stuff), but the main thing you touched on, being the "mass murder for our sake" line, is something that really puzzled me. After my initial reading of it, I thought some people were right, that Isayama was supporting fascism all along. After lots of reflection on that, I no longer think that's the case. I do agree that it's more of an example of sloppy writing than anything else. The main issue with this chapter is that it was clearly rushed as fuck. It was throwing so much at the audience whilst giving barely any breathing room to let the audience take in these ideas. I also think that Isayama wasn't trying to emphasize the morality of Eren's actions as much with that part as he was trying to address Eren & Armin's relationship. Isayama has always been a bit of a sloppy writer at times (it is his first manga, after all), and this is something I can see being addressed more clearly in the anime. He has struggled with concrete, overtly political writing in the past (I feel he's much better in the abstract & with concepts), namely in the "Uprising Arc," and that arc was changed rather drastically in season 3 of the anime, so I wouldn't be surprised if he does something similar with the final arc. Not only that but it's confirmed that the final volume of the manga will contain extra pages, so that could potentially help its case, too.
I would recommend reading this post: www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/mqnlrt/a_look_at_the_japanese_in_armins_controversial/ and a take on the dialogue from a Japanese reader, for what it's worth: www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/mqnlrt/a_look_at_the_japanese_in_armins_controversial/guhziby/
It delves into how potentially something was lost in translation here.
I personally don't see this as a betrayal of the themes of the previous 138 chapters, I see it as a product of a rushed final chapter, sloppy writing from Isayama, and potential translation complications. Regardless, I still think it's a phenomenal series, with rich themes and an interesting story to tell.
Sorry for the wall of text, this is just something I have been thinking about for the past week, and this video got me thinking about it even more. Loved the video, so keep up the great work as this is quickly becoming one of my favorite channels :)
Yeah, I went through your entire thought process after reading it too. I think there's an understandable impulse in people to assume that this ending as-written was purposeful, but I really do think it's just bad writing. Unfortunately, the themes of AoT are so dark and touchy that it really doesn't allow for this kind of sloppiness. Like, that second link is the most available interpretation of this, but even that just kind of simplifies the near-extinction of humanity into an oopsie doopsie with good intentions behind it. The intentions behind genocide are always rotten and twisted, so it's already distasteful because of that, but ALSO Isayama was so wishy washy with Eren's motives that we still don't understand why he did it in the first place. Like I say in the video, you can give him a strategic motive or a villainous motive, but this really is a situation where you can't have both. That first link does clear some stuff up, it seems like the kind of thing that the show might be able to fix with a few carefully placed words, fingers crossed. Thanks for watching! And for being here! ❤
I’d say Isayama will use the anime as a way to extend the ending and rectify his mistakes. I liked the final chapter a lot but it suffered a lot from being rushed. This comment is probably the best take on this. Isayama is not siding with Eren, he’s simply not a perfect writer.
@@themorbidzoo there's an argument to be made about the last laaaaast chapter, which shows a sped up world being destroyed and a new generation unlocking the power of the Titans.
Perhaps Isayama tried (and failed) to convey that forgiving and even going so far as to thank Eren for his actions was a mistake that ended up perpetuating the cycle of war.
I think something similar as well, Isayama made it rushly, so the important points came out like that, i heard in part is because the number 139 in japanese mean freedom so he wanted to end it at that number, which in my opinion that's not only was inconvenient for him to end the point he wanted but rushed things more and the number on itself is not on the story to be more intentional and he said he would have liked to make Armin and Eren conversation longer, maybe he do it better in the anime.
@@marcospatricio8283I personally think thats a huge assumption from several fans that the tree at the end represents the return of the titans. Rather I think it symbolises a new beginning like how Ymir ultimately began the series except this time with major differences. This time the child is not being hunted by a dog, they are travelling alongside it as their companion, this time they were not chased and forced to hide here, they stumbled upon it and seem curious.
The cycle has begun again, yes but this time things have been improved somewhat. Which I think is a core message of the story, it says conflict is inevitable but we must seek out peace for the sake of others that come after us. Even if things only improve a little after ending the conflict, it is worth it.
The curse of the titans began because of Ymir’s situation and her desire for connection at the end of the day, this character does not have that same burden as far as we know. I just think people need to look into this a bit more rather than just observe it at a surface level reading.
The nose argument was truly the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen and seeing so many RUclipsrs be like “Who are we to say that the nose issue is a bad argument” because they are afraid to touch it was just incredibly obnoxious. Thank you for the solid and structured arguments!
Thanks for the watch! Lol I’m not afraid. That argument is dumb as hell.
This is the best video about the series I've seen and I'm so damn glad it's finally here!
I feel like the ending of the manga was altered, whether by Isayama or his editors but since Eren is such a fan favorite they didn't want him to be a bad guy so had him be a secret good guy at the last minute. Not only does that have suspect implications about war crimes for the greater good lol and not only is it a really goddamn lame twist, I also feel like it goes back on why people like Eren to begin with. People didn't like him because they thought he was in the moral right, they liked him because he didn't care he was in the moral wrong and would go to any lengths to fight and die for the freedom of his friends and having him go back on that for a "greater good" is just like AAAAA WHY????
But anyways I just really want to ask what you think of Reiner as a character because he's my absolute favorite and seeing him get a happy ending eased my agitation toward the chapter a lot, and also ask who your favorite character, if any, is?
Lol I compleeeetely agree. I think film industries the world over are hampered by producers acting like their business acumen applies to art-- like they just need to "give the customer what they want." Stories don't act like other products that way. If it wasn't Isayama's decision then I do think that's what happened. If it was Isayama's decision then he was either himself in that mindset, or was too in love with Eren as his baby to follow through on where the character was going. Boooo thumbs down either way.
I love Reiner and someday I'm gonna marry that man. I think his transition from villain to antihero to tragic figure was pretty seamless and one of the best examples of characterization this series has. His split personality thing is just a little bit on the nose for me, though I do like how it's written. I think my favorite might be Ymir (Jaw Titan Ymir not Founder Ymir). I think her story is a really sad example of the collateral damage of that world's bloody history, and I like her explicit gayness and the fact that no one else remarks upon it. Thanks for watching! And being here! ❤
@@themorbidzoo i would to say if i remember correctly, Isayama said in an interview he strugled writing the ending, and he thinks he could have made it better but doesn't change themes. I found this on Reddit btw.
"For Isayama, the last part of the manga is a difficult theme beyond his ability. Isayama feels that he has not been able to fully express these themes with the manga, so he regrets it"
if there's no problem i would like to ask you what do you think? And how you look at the story now over all.
@@akamesb4540 I know it's easy for me to say since I'm not the one on a publisher's deadline, but he should have taken as long as it needed to to end it properly if he was unsatisfied with the ending he came up with. Stories are important, a story like this can be extra important given its political charge, and an ending is a crucial part of the structural integrity of the story as a whole, not just a wrap-up. Like, not everyone has to like your ending, but if you yourself can't justify it then you simply should have written it differently, have some respect for your own creation.
@@themorbidzoo i love the series, got me more into shonen, i agree what u said, he should have taken the time to write that better, i think it was rushed, for a story like this, i think two to three chapters would have been good. I just hope in the anime he takes he does it and takes his time since is an special.
I remember a case of the author of Shaman King, he and the fans weren't very happy with the first ending and years later he decided to change it, i think Isayama should have done that but instead of changing the themes, just making them better based on his story, not on fans ideas, i read somewhere he looked up at fan theories and he wanted to end the story on 139 cause in Japan that means freedom or some, for me if that's the reason rushed things to end it for an easter egg a lot of people won't understand or see as intentional, instead he could have put in an object.
But Eren wasn't made a good guy in the end
I was honestly half expecting AoT to drop the ball at the end. Most manga I've read don't really stick the landing in a way that almost seems like it's a systemic problem in the manga industry.
A lot of them tend to drag things out or don’t have an already finished story ready to be told, too often they’re making things up as they go
@@bruhdon4748 yeah, but AoT didn't feel like that, it actually felt kinda rushed after the Marley arc and ended so fast you'd almost think it was canceled.
@@1894db yeah I agree
I went anime-only. Having watched the last chapter, I feel like the issues I heard about in the manga were sort of addressed, but I have to say that the only theme I was initially left with on watching was nihilism. War can't be stopped.
As for Eren.. his actions just left me confused. I feel like the time travel and the nature of his abilities blur the message a bit, if there is one.
It's difficult for me to express my appreciation for this video. There's time and energy invested here, into an IP that is worthy of examination, beyond the scope of cursory fandom. It feels like you would have much more to say on this topic, and I'd be very interested in being a part of that hypothetical conversation. Thank you for taking the time to put this together. As someone who has gone through the paces of writing, I can only ever hope to pay it forward. If you do find the inclination to pick this IP apart further (now that the last leg of the story is being animated) feel free to reach out. I'm happy to PM my discord, etc.
This vid alone earns a sub from me! Thanks again.
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watch the show’s rendition of the finale. they make it more clear that Erin really is not redeemable or redeemed in any way. He simply hasnt abandoned his friends and had a goal in mind that did protect his island. He still committed genocide to do it and is still absolutely a monster, even in his friends eyes. They are just happy that he didnt secretly hate them as much as he hated the world. The sad weird question everyone is left with is that ‘Well, his plan did work’ but was it worth it? Probably not. It’s the result of a god complex and god like power. In the process however he killed millions including so many of his own people. The one’s he sought to protect. I guess the weirder question it leaves you with is one more akin to the use of nukes to end WW2 than anything to do with Nazi Germany. Were they worth it? They prevented the invasion of Japan and subsequent bloodbath but also destroyed two cities & 200,000 lives 31:04 mercilessly as well as unleashing the spectre of nuclear annihilation. Obviously not a 1:1 analogy but a closer one imo. Idk i thought the show pulled it off pretty well but it wasnt subtle and it’s not the smartest show ever. obviously lmao
I never really interpreted Eren as having a god complex. Like, maybe I'm forgetting things, but from around the ending of Season 3, to the end, he's a self-depricating, self-admitted idiot who acts without thinking.
I think the idea is more that Eren is pitiable for having been given the most difficult job in the world; being the protagonist of a Shounen anime where there is no good ending. He's a tragic protagonist because, up to a point, he really was only trying to do the right thing--and the show uses the early framing very well to justify that. Later he becomes despicable because his actions are framed without the context of the idiotic, but ultimately human desire to protect everyone you love, and then ultimately it's framed by Armin's thankfulness for being given a chance to live. It's sweet, I think. A real trauma bonding experience.
Also, I 100% agree with the nuke analogy; I actually made a comment right before seeing this one complaining that so many people seem to ignore those aspects of the themes. A lot of people seem to take the Rumbling as an allegory for the holocaust for granted through a very presumptuous western lens, and not nuclear annihilation--which it so clearly, blatantly is. Shit's frustrating, like, it's right there.
The author went the same route that Dune went, the ends justified the means route, which yes, is just terrible.
He ruined my entire analysis in the 11th hour. who does that, I'll never forgive him
Uh, Dune when what route?
I'm confused what you mean when you talk about Dune saying the ends justify the means. I guess because in the end Paul's vision did work out for the imperium but I think the point of the story is that he lost his humanity in order to do so. You're not supposed to know objectively if what Paul did was good for humanity in the end. It's meant to be a topic of debate not a message burned into the reader. It's a thought experiment exploring what it would be like for someone to know the future and the horrible events that they would have to allow happen for it to play out the way it needs to. Ultimately, for me, it's a story about why it's good that humanity isn't omniscient and our universe and future isn't set in stone, not one about justifying means. It's the same for Attack on Titan I think. The problem that I have with reviews like this is the desire to extract some kind of concrete moral message from stories that inherently deal with abstract concepts like the future and the greater good. These stories are, like I said, thought experiments. To take them so literally as a pro or anti fascist message feels like inserting your own political bias rather than taking them for what they were likely intended to be. Dune is a masterpiece of science fiction. A work of art that deserves to be studied and analyzed for years and years to come. To summarize it with such a simple takeaway as "the ends justify the means which is bad" is to rob the story of it's profound themes and messages about humanity, government and religion. It is doing the novel a massive injustice by misinterpreting it's exploration of fate and good and evil as one definitive moral conviction rather than a series of complex questions posed to the reader. Seriously reread Dune it is so good.
@@offtheshelfETI would have agreed with you if I hadn’t read God Emperor of Dune, but alas. Nah, GEoD leaves little room for doubt about the tragic necessity of the golden path.
@@fieuline2536Yes I agree that the message of god emperor is that the golden path was justified. However in chapterhouse dune this notion gets edited. This often happens in dune as a series, one example being dune messiah re defining the ending of dune as being subverted.
Chapter house also subverts the golden path. It changes from a plan that saved humanity to a plan that nearly killed all of humanity and is only useful as a plan of what NOT to do. Specifically never to trust leaders
Frank Herbert talks explicitly about this. He says Nixon was his favorite president. Not because he did anything good but because Watergate was a lesson not to trust leaders especially when they talk about the greater good.
So I’ve been binge watching your videos and, after finishing this one, I wanna recommend an anime called Shin Sekai Yori (From the New World), since I think it’s a show that handles some very heavy topics and I would love to hear your take on it. I watched it a long time ago, but it still pops into my mind from time to time as “that one brutal and traumatizing anime I saw when I was thirteen”. It tackles themes like “humanity is evil and self destructive” and “fear will motivate people to do monstrous violent things” and so on. Hopefully, it will interest you to make a video. In any case, I love your work! Come to Brazil, girl!
Hell yeah this sounds great. I'll put it on my list. Saudações!
I also really hated that line from armin in the manga and I think the anime improves that part especially. Even in the manga I don't think the intention is to "redeem" eren it makes sense for the characters and to some extent the audience to mourn eren after all they and us have been through with him but i don't think the characters think what eren did was good. If the story was trying to say eren was doing a good thing the characters wouldn't have spent the entire last arc trying to stop him. I also think acting like one or two bad lines or pages makes the author a bad writer isn't really true. An author stumbling a bit doesn't mean they're bad especially when everything in attack on titan was so good up to that point. Really I think he just needed one more chapter to flesh stuff out a bit. The anime ending is still not perfect but it definitely improves it. Regardless of all that though this video was very well made and pretty informative.
The central problem with AOT is that there is no singular, coherent thematic interpretation that does not also leave lots of the content out. I could pick and choose details to make a fascist or anti-fascist reading, but both would also require me to outright ignore large swaths of details that could undermine it.
It is an anti-war story where most of the characters are badass supersoldiers who also die randomly. It is a story about social opression where the opressed group demonstrably are dangerous monsters. The main hero becomes a villain two thirds of the way through, but the story wants to have it's cake and eat it too my keeping him vaguely sympathetic, and possibly over corrects in that direction. The Eldians are Germans or Jews or Japanese depending on which scene you are looking at, same for all of the other factions. Is the Power of the Titans a metaphohre for X Y or Z, or all at once, or are the magical meat mechs just magical meat mechs?
AoT is built around its plot and characters first and foremost, visuals and action second, and theme and politics a *distant* third. Any political subtext is accidental, and, thus, nearly incoherent.
If I were to make a *very* tentative interpretation of the work that incorporates the majority of it with a bit of crowbaring, I thing AoT is *intended* to be a work about the dangers of fascism that itself unknowingly (?) contains and reflects many of the subtler fascistic thought-pattern.
the themes i got were; War is bad. Bigotry is bad. Indoctrination and child soldiers are bad. The point of life is day to day enjoyment, and none of us should be sacrificing our lives to continue a cycle of violence. I thought that even when the only threat was the titans, the scouts should have just stayed home and tried to enjoy whatever time they have left with their families, and try to get to the interior walls, sure it has to collapse eventually, but maybe you can die of old age in the inner walls first.
So, to summarize, the author of AoT is the "bad evil things are bad and evil" everyday layman in terms of his lackluster and wishy-washy understanding of history, philosophy and political sciences, which is why AoT is so equally lackluster and wildly inconsistent thematically?
I am...absolutely not surprised. Not even a little.
Thanks for writing this comment. I just finished the anime and that was exactly my take. Its ideas are very interesting! But they’re also incoherent. Especially Ymir, my god.
You had my subscription at "We have to leave room for people to think critically about ideas".
About the "nose thing": indeed... having lived in Japan myself, I can testify that "big noses" over there are still a signifier of "Westernness", and Japanese actors or TV personalities playing white western characters on talk shows and TV shows very often wear fake long noses (and you didn't hear me use the term "white face"...).
(Also, completely unrelated, but nice use of Haendel's Sarabande...)
Big thank! Yes, obsession over physical caricature is one of those things Americans don't realize is a specific cultural politeness thing, not a universal standard, like not wearing your shoes in the house. In Mexico there's a very beloved comic book character called Memin Pinguin who, to Americans, looks like a REALLY offensive black caricature. That's understandable, but we have to allow for other cultures to have different relationships to racialized portrayals-- it's not the world's job to make Americans comfortable.
@@themorbidzoo Ha! Japan ruined me: I’ve internalized the wearing-shoes-in-the-house taboo to the point where what disturbs me most in American horror movies is seeing people wearing shoes inside AND EVEN ON THEIR OWN FRIGGIN BED!! That last one has probably become as primordially repellent to me as the idea of incest (way to have my priorities sorted…).
Interesting point. Had to look up Memin Pinguin. I know that “the suspicious mind conjures its own demons” and that I’d have to actually read the comics to be able to comment intelligently, but Memin's strong simian facial features and morphology are indeed quite conspicuous (even for my own cheese-eating-surrender-monkey sensibilities!). Especially so because all white characters appear to have anthropomorphically accurate features. Memin is even sometimes seen playing with or being cuddled by actual monkeys, and Asian characters only fare marginally better representation wise.
I suppose there *could* be valid (i.e. non racist) reasons for such a radical choice of representation in a work of art (e.g. reification of Otherness-as-perceived-by-(some)-white-people-in-the-40's at the time of the comic’s creation, in order to produce its criticism…) and I understand the comics have strong anti-racist themes going on (and not in the recently acquired fallacious/deceitful meaning of the term), and also that the authors have emphatically defended themselves against accusation of racism.
Not quite sure what to make of this one. I agree there needs to be room for different cultures to have different relationships to racialized portrayals, but I think there’s a step between representing characters with exaggerated human features (big nosed Westerners in Japanese media...) and singling out a particular ethnic group for zoomorphism (now if ALL characters in "Memin" had animal features it would be a different story…), for the same reasons I agree with your argument that vampires are only scary if one perceives Otherness as threatening.
Damn! Even your comment sections are thought provoking and force one to seriously ponder over things.
(Apologies for the super long comment, won't do it again!).
[edited for typos]
@@brulyon ha no probs, I love meeting new people to chat in the comments with and I'm glad you're here! Yeah, I know, that character design is a big fucked up no no...in America. There have been issues where Memin merch has been sold in heavily Mexican places like Texas and gotten complaints, which I think are 100% warranted. It's just that in Mexico it's not really considered rude or a red flag to point out or even make fun of people's physical features, even if they're racialized, especially for the older generations. It's a different standard, because Mexico's history of race relations is different. It's a touchy character design for sure, but it would be ignorant and disingenuous to say that the comic is a promotion of hate crimes and speech the way it would arguably be if it were an American text, because its intended audience consumes it differently from Americans. It's the kind of situation where cultural relativism is good, like, let's not ALWAYS assume ill-intent about things that are a matter of culture.
@@themorbidzoo "Let's not ALWAYS assume ill-intent about things that are a matter of culture." Well agreed. Humans are imperfect creatures by nature, whose motivations are sometimes unclear to even themselves: intent and intellectual honesty (or lack thereof) should always be taken into account.
Most disturbing things these days aren't monsters, with whom it's never too difficult to identify (nor people keeping their shoes in bed, even though they have no soul...), it's externalization of evil, aspirations of absolute and purity (instead of nuance and complexity), and what seems to be the resurgence of a strangely perverse latent desire for penance, all of these quasi-religious feelings seemingly straight out of the European Middle Ages...
@@brulyon I think the internet made us regress a little bit in that way. It's a very easy method to ignore your immediate surroundings and the social challenges they offer because you can belong to what seems like a large, inclusive, and important community online no matter who you are. People will do just about anything for acceptance and purpose. :(
While I’m in the “AoT is fascist” camp, I really appreciate how measured and well reasoned your responses were.
One of the main issues that I have with the discourse around AoT is that I think that many of the arguments miss the forest for the trees.
First, many of the arguments center season four as arena for discussion, but I’d argue that AoT was fashy as hell well before the final arc. From the beginning, Isayama presents us with the one division of the military that is noble, hyper-competent, and ideologically pure as being the only hope for a fallen society that must stand against not only the hideous monsters banging at the gates, but also the corrupt and degenerate structures of power that exist in the society presently. The narrative forces through the first few arcs are written from a “fascist imagination” of the world where our cadre of true believers are entirely justified in all of their actions all of the time because the construction of the world they live in necessitates it. I’m not saying that Isayama is necessarily a fascist. I don’t think Zack Sneider is a fascist, but 300 is a pretty damn fashy movie. Same thing. The world that Isayama built is one where a the good guys must, for the good of the people, stage a fascist coup against the monarchy because their fascism wasn’t the right fascism. Hell, they even do so by collaborating with the media and capital to win the hearts of the Folk.
Second, a lot of the western critique attempts to examine the politics of AoT through the lens of European fascist movements, when I think it’s better understood by examining the Japanese fascist state and the postwar era of reactionary politics. Contemporary Japanese Ultranationalism is very much a movement of grievance politics with that palingenetic myth we see in so many fascist movements. The Eldian restorationists are a perfect case-in-point. “Why are we being punished for the sins of our ancestors, we must restore ourselves to our former might and glory” is a rallying cry held by both the restorationists and Japanese ultranationalists. Once again, it’s the “fascist imagination” that engineers a world where they are absolutely correct, with the (at best) tone deaf application of WW2 imagery.
Third, positing AoT as being antiwar is pretty puzzling to me. True, it makes war seem horrific and unjustified. Except for all those times it makes it look totally awesome and totally justified. Fascists have the tendency to make the military look glorious and worthy of spectacle, but equally important is their depiction as war being eternal and inevitable. Killing is bad when they do it, but it’s acceptable (if unpleasant at times) when we do it. I just don’t buy the idea that AoT is antiwar and thus antifascist when it seems (most charitably) incoherently agnostic on the subject.
Personally, the conclusion of the story was pretty much what I expected. Even when Eren was at his most reprehensible I never could believe that Isayama truly considered him a villain, so when they Friendship Is Magicked him at the end I was not surprised at all.
I really appreciated your analysis in the video and will be subbing for more!
Edit: just read the pinned comment, wish I hadn’t written this novel lol
Thanks for the response, this is all very reasonable!
@@themorbidzoo just finished your spider Gwen video, absolutely brilliant, thanks for the work you do!
When I was watching AOT, and the restorations became a thing, at no point did I feel any sense of “this is good” or “this is justified”. To me, it was just a part of the story that happened. In made me realize that at some point, Grisha was prideful. He became just like what Floch becomes. It made me realize that he allowed the nightmarish circumstances he was faced with to push him into becoming just like the people who would treat him like an animal.
Then, later in the story it’s revealed that he changed and became much more understanding of the situation.
That’s anti fascist. It takes a fascist character and flips him on his head, revealing to the viewer that his previous beliefs were wrong.
This happens with Eren and the rumbling as well. He’s shown to regret what he did, and admits that he did it because he’s an idiot. In other words, Eren admits it was a mistake. He admits it was wrong.
Just like the war aspect of it, just because it’s in the story doesn’t mean the story is pro war. At every turn AOT is ramming it down the viewers throats how wrong war, murder, genocide, subjugation, etc are.
And most importantly, it’s up to the individual how they perceive the story and how they allow it to impact them or their lives.
@@StumbIingforwardI’m willing to concede that other people might not have read AoT with the same loathing that I did and might have been able to overlook the problematics that I listed above.
In consequentialist terms, if you read AoT and came away with the feeling that war and genocide are bad, then, well, good. They are, and if reading AoT led to a more ossified belief in the evils of war and genocide, awesome.
But I don’t think that the text was concerned with “good and bad” of war and genocide, rather than the justification thereof. I can buy that there are people who engaged with the text who didn’t believe it to be a work of fascist fiction (like I did), but the assertion that it is antifascist is not a tenable position.
AoT is as much a work of horror as anything else, so it’s fitting that the depictions of war are horrific. And it’s pretty damn effective in that regard. However, Isayama constructed a world where war, militarism, Ultranationalism, and genocide are not only present, but necessary. There’s no wiggle room. There’s no other choice. It’s horrible, sure, but it’s also completely justified in AoT’s world. I just can’t believe that a work of fiction that concludes with an act of genocide that is ultimately vindicated by the text is somehow antifascist, no matter how sad it made his friends.
AoT fans engage in this weird apologia that I’ve never really seen before with any other work of fiction and I think it’s because they don’t really understand what fascism is. I don’t care if AoT depicts Eren as villainous or war as horrific. What I care about is the fact that it presents all of the horror perpetrated by our protagonists as justified and ultimately vindicated.
@@jna9197 They’re justified to you. They aren’t justified to me.
And let’s get specific. What exactly are you saying the story is saying is justified? The rumbling? It doesn’t. People wrongly perceive it that way, but in reality it’s just something that happens in the story. It’s only stated to be wrong in the actual story. At no point is it argued that it’s right. And by the end, Eren himself calls himself an idiot and regrets it.
I find it strange that the ending is what makes you think it can’t be anti fascist. Because Eren kills so many people? Again, that clearly isn’t portrayed as a good thing. It’s horrific and disgusting. It’s a cautionary tale just as much as anything else. “We have to keep the kids out of the forest”. Well, Eren couldn’t get out of the forest. I believe it’s saying “look at what the world turned him in to”. It’s to say that if people don’t change their ways and come to understand one another, then all that will exist is chaos and war.
If that’s not anti fascist and anti war, I don’t know what is.
Do you mean things as simple as “since the titans exist, the military must exist”?
Because in real life, the only way the military couldn’t exist is if no other militaries or potential threats existed. If the very existence of the military is fascist, then there almost certainly will never be a world without fascism. It’s like when people advocate for the police, meaning, the entire concept of the police, not being a thing because they’ve deemed it inherently fascist.
In reality, those same people who claim they don’t want police would be ran through within a couple of weeks just like most people.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to say “the military exists in AOT, and the military is fascist, therefore AOT is fascist propaganda”. Does that mean every story involving war or the military is fascist? It doesn’t make sense.
I understand the use for propaganda, it’s very real. But I don’t see how AOT is pushing fascist ideology at all. It seems to be the opposite to me.
By the way I appreciate your response, thank you for sharing your opinions on it in a reasonable way
I had this on my watch later for 2 years waiting for the anime to finally end, and now it actually has 🎉 but thank you for making this and breaking this whole mess of a conversation down. It's a conversation I've had with friends before and these are all things I've been saying all along. I'm curious if your thoughts have changed with the anime ending being a bit different and honestly better written, but yeah the manga ending is pretty much a mess and everyone can agree with that it seems.
I would be so hyped to see your take on Code Geass. I found it did the “unite vs common enemy” theme really well, and seemingly knew what it was doing the whole time!
Thank you for this, you have no idea how much I empathize with your frustration. It's so infuriating to spend several years defending AoT from flimsy, bad-faith criticism only to read the last chapter and feel like an absolute schmuck. When 90% of the story has been nuanced, mature and anti-fascist, and 9% questionable but altogether not a big deal, that final 1% that makes you go "WTF Isayama!?" stings like hell.
"argument from aesthetics" is a wonderfully polite way of saying "completely superficial non-analysis"
So the read I got (which I am not saying is the correct one or anything) was less that Armin was thanking Eren for being a mass murderer but more that he finally understood why Eren did what he did even though he fundamentally disagrees with it hence the line about it being an "Error."
The bit after about why he'd do it anyway but doesn't know why ties into a theory about Eren's character: the man obsessed with freedom who was never free. He was a slave to fate, a slave to Ymir's will and in the end just moved forward. His desire for freedom was what allowed him to be the perfect tool to enact Ymir's plan.
Again these are just my views on the chapter which came after a lot of musing over it (especially once the official translation came out as the fan typesets were pretty bad).
There are definitely issues like you said: Historia being forgotten, Ymir's weird motivations etc. and I think the ending could have been a lot better if it stuck with the theme that was more present on the surface.
Honestly, I'm really interested in what Kyle's video will say eventually. I am still unsure about the chapter and wondering if things got lost in translation or something.
My main question is: "What happened?" Like I really want to understand what Isayama was thinking or trying to do with this chapter. If he wanted to not "rush" the ending, surely he could have added 1 or 2 more chapters??? We can speculate that there were outside sources pressuring him to end it quickly, or in a certain way. But there is no evidence of that. Thus, I feel like we must assume that he ended it how he wanted. Yet, up until this point Isayama has seemed like a pretty careful writer and has undoubtedly thought about AoT more then anyone else. Idk, it just feels like people have jumped ship from saying "Yams is a Genius" to "Yams is a bad writer" way to quickly. Maybe I'm giving the man too much credit...
I was thoroughly perplexed by this chapter initially. I never felt I had to assume much with AoT because I've always felt it was very explicit. Now it feels like its asking a lot from me...
Anyway, it will be interesting to see what we all make of it in 1, 2, 5 years time once we had time to think. Maybe this is just a big mega IQ play by Isayama to get us discussing AoT for a much longer time...
@@JarkeyBacon I know what you mean. Considering how the story has been going and how many 10/10 chapters we've had it feels like there might be something I've missed in my interpretations although I am still reasonably happy with a lot of my thoughts. Kyle's video will be interesting for sure.
I think that's all valid, but like Jarkey said, it feels like it's asking a lot of me now. I am a busy woman with things to do ha, I don't have a lot of patience for any text that seems like it wants me to decipher it. There is leaving things open to interpretation, and then there is making your audience do your job for you. Thanks for the watch! And the thoughtful comment! I'm really hoping the show manages to flesh it out a little more. A few well-placed or altered lines could change everything
@@themorbidzoo oh yeah I agree there's definitely a shift in terms of expectations of the audience in the final chapter and even another few panels could have done wonders.
@@themorbidzoo I feel as though while AoT always fed you A plotline and story to follow, it's almost always been that you'd have to look deeper if you want to find the real story. Whether it's the Armored-Colossal reveal, the marley reveal, or the future-past reveal, the story has never fed you the true story until after it's completed. So to that end I'm not surprised the ending came out dense and confusing. I heard that there's gonna be a new chapter released though, so maybe that'll be the next big twist.
I can finally watch this now, but I'm curious to hear what you thought of the updated dialogue, much clearer tone, and "post story" time addition as shown in the adaptation!
How does this channel not have more views??? This is so good
Thanks for the watch :)
I dropped a comment on the prior video about how Attack on Titan is a circular story - the first arc can very much be argued as pro-fascist (I wouldn't, I would say pro nationalism), but that's because the post-timeskip basically throws all of that in the audience's and character's faces. So yeah, it pretty much does outright say fascism is bad because... Well, Eren and the Rumbling happen.
And very much absolutely, yes, I agree with all of your criticism of Attack on Titan. Sincerely believe that the author stumbled into all of this by accident, it blew up completely, and he had no idea how to end it.
Anyway don't shut up and take my sub.
Hahaha, thanks. I think you’re spot on, and not just because you’re agreeing with me 😁
Amazing video, glad to have found the channel.
I think there are some "rightish" things embedded in the show, and as other comments placed it, stuff that is more intrinsic with Japaneese problematic relationship with their own history (specially being a island nation being "threatened" by others), but even so it can be used as a discussion about said history (after all, he does not exempt the "history" of the eldians as a people that "in the past" opressed others), and is not glorifying it.
As you said, there is a lot of nuance in both the Story and around the author. And I think the "marvelization" of politics and everything did not do any favours regarding treating everything as a "perfect good" and a "perfect bad", and ironically it affects a lot of so-called progressives that are all too quick to sum everything up to a tiny little box.
Which is completely Ironic in itself, since this complete simplification, and the "friend-foe" mindset that can be all pointed out to be a fascistic or right-wing characteristic, is so easily spread out into the progressives, and even the ones that would criticize the nazi philosopher, are all to happy in indulge in the mindset if it means they can easily place something that don't neatly fit into their definition of "good" into the "box of bad things".
And as an aside, a tangencial thing that is exemplified by this video is how discussions made on twitter don't make any favours regarding all this situation, it's a shitty platform that makes so that only the most simplistic of things and takes can be spread, it really fits well into the "marvelization of politics". Elon Musk is doing a great favour in running the platform into the ground.
Like tackling of history revisionism and how that deeply explored. Which i am pretty sure was intentional knowing what the group that abe was did to revision history of imperial japan, and not work it up. unlike germany who didnt imeatedly perfectly but did.
And that theme is great tto explore.
I have my gripes with the ending, think it was great in theory but quite messy in execution. Glad that so far the anime has elevated a lot of parts that didn’t resonate well with the fandom (Hange’s death absolutely my fav moment of the anime, manga would have to be the entire see you later sequence, from the cabin to the kiss). So I’ve heard he admitted himself that he felt like he could have done much better with the anime and he is working alongside Mappa for the animation of the ending so I’m excited to see what improvements we might get!
So yeah just here, watching AOT shit in anticipation xD came here from your the witch video and loved it so glad to see more from this channel !
The ending was great, what are you on?
@@MrBooone This was before the anime ending, which had everything come together much better. I always liked the ending but now I love it, I’m allowed to have my criticisms of the ending.
I'm a Malaysian Chinese descendant in Southeast Asia. I have still-living relatives who had personally gone through the horrors of Japanese occupation and Imperial Army propaganda firsthand. And yes, AoT is absolutely fascist, just not as westerners understand it. Japanese fascism operates on different rhetoric and context.
And please, keep in mind that Japanese fascist and fascist-adjacent creators often do not need to code their fictional peoples as Japanese to propagate fascist ideas. So the Eldians aren't a Jewish analog. They're a nationalist/fascist Japanese analog.
Can you elaborate on how the rhetoric differs to the extent that Westerners wouldn’t recognize it as fascism?
@@KrisBailey It's a long explanation, but Lost Futures has a video essay going into detail to answer your question.
Media Literacy is Dead: Attack on Titan is Still Fascist
It is the opinion of the author, but Lost Futures does a deep dive on the history of late Imperial Japan and the exact question you asked.
Mind elaborating? This is not twitter, just saying you're not white doesn't automatically win you every argument here.
Thank you for this comment
@@john2g1lost futures video was dumb as hell.
The part that drives me nuts is that Gabi is RIGHT THERE. SHES THE EXAMPLE. She is a child who is apart of this cycle of violence who comes to realize that her enemies are part of this same fucked up ecosystem. All Isayama had to do was just let Eren be the bad guy, get killed for it and the let the tragedy of his actions play out. Instead we get this really muddy message and weird sympathy from his friends.
Like most shows have the classic Act 2 confrontation that is a little contrived and friends of the character overreact a bit.
Then we have AoT where their friend does a Genocide and they are all pouty about having to go against him
I cannot put into words the way I feel about this
Thumbs up for having "Special Topics in Calamity Physics" on your shelf.
All opinions on the story are valid obviously, but its absolutely not fascist in anyway. I really appreciate how well you explain these things that i thought were obvious. AoT in my eyes is a classic tragedy. I feel its critics believe its a heros story and misinterpret the entire thing.
"The film industry has spent the last century perfecting how they can convince an audience to give them money. And the prevailing wisdom is that people won't give you very much money if you ask them to watch something that makes them feel confused about their beliefs."
I know this video is 2+ years old but do you recall if one of the sources in the description discusses this? I am very interested. Thanks.
It's really cool to see you do a retrospective on an old video you made!
Ha thanks, I get annoyed when my work doesn't hold up, especially since if you miss information fandoms never let you forget it 😁
edit: also I just sent you an email
I had to pause after "The holocaust has been reproduced so many times and in so many different mediums that I worry that we’re now primed to understand it more as a story on a screen rather than as a thing that actually happened and needs to be prevented from happening again" - maybe the realest quote I've heard in so long. Thanks for examining this story's antifascist potential and how the ending frustratingly subverts the story that came before it. Amazing video!
I honestly have less of a problem with the series and more of a problem with people assuming everyone who likes Attack on Titan is a fascist and should be blocked if they show the slightest interest in it. As if everyone even agrees it's fascist (I don't) or even likes the ending (I also don't). Or people just pretending it wasn't a cool anime about people chopping up giant zombies before it ever tackled topics like anti-Semitism and the cycle of violence.
Differing opinions, death of the author, and intentionally ignoring parts of canon you don't like are things that still exist and are valid ways of consuming media.
You make nuanced and nice videos. I used to read Attack on Titan but for one reason or another I stopped around the time they were fighting the internal police state on the island or something. It is weird since supression of science in the fact of monsters that modern day weapons like a Gunship would literally annihilate with zero resistance is ... kind of fun as an isea.
I wonder if you'd want to do a vide on Come and See. Its a good movie. IMHO the best horror and war movie.
Thanks for the watch!! I'll put it on my list, I haven't seen Come and See in a looong time
I could argue forever why AOT isn’t fascist but for me personally it has to do with the most profound and memorable message I gleaned from the story which is:
(AOT Final Chapter Spoilers)
I see the overall AOT story as a parable on human morality that I think is nicely summarized by a quote by Montesquieu:
“A truly virtuous man would come to the aid of the most distant stranger as quickly as to his own friend. If men were perfectly virtuous, they wouldn’t have friends.”
One of the most familiar tropes in fiction is “the gang of heroes” a certral group of characters we’re meant to identify with and see as friends, people we know and love just like we love our real friends and family. We feel sad when Sasha died bc our perspective as the viewer naturally came with real value for her life and a real sense of loss from knowing that she would be absent going forward. (Barely even thinking about the masses who had been slaughtered in the episodes leading up to her death) knowing Sasha as a character made us care about her death, rather than the fact that death and murder are bad in and of themselves.
Reiner’s arc is about dealing with guilt for committing atrocities against the people of Paradise, the heroes have a hard time coping when the enemy is humans rather than titans, then again when the enemy is humans they knew as friends. Gabby vows to get revenge on the Eldians despite knowing that death and destruction is what pushed them to their breaking point of killing her people, she says this is because “she didn’t see it happen” She wasn’t attached to what had been taken when Reiner destroyed their home and killed their families, she only saw the suffering the Eldians imposed on her and her loved ones, and that’s what motivates her actions. We are given the perspective of some of the “enemies” and are made to understand and relate to their stories and see them as being people we easily could have been rooting for and relating to
all along.
Erin does the rumbling because of the love he has for his own friends and people, he is given all this power which proves to be a disaster because of his VERY HUMAN desire to protect the small group of people he personally loves AT the expense of literally ALL OF HUMANITY (contrasted with the earlier chapters where the viewer is made to believe “the hero is fighting on behalf of humanity, he is on the side of the greater good. We believe we are moral and would choose to do what’s good for eveyone only to realize in season 4 that maybe that was all a lie we told ourselves, maybe this virtuous thing we call “love” and the capacity to form human connections might lead to js committing horrific acts. Mikasa’s final decision whether or not to do the right thing and save all of humanity (all the people she will never know) comes at the price of the ONE person she loves most of all. AOT makes us think about ourselves as moral beings and consider the ways our arbitrary perspective and personal ties might truly be what shapes our views of good and evil. Of course “Good and evil depends on perspective” isn’t an original message, but AOT builds on it in a way that confronts and then
offers a way out of the discomfort we feel when realizing that human morality in its broadest purest form deprives us of the one things that most defines us as humans beings to begin with: our capacity to bond with and love others. It chooses a utilitarian moral sentiment in the most human way possible and makes think hard about what the true right way go act is despite our personal emotional understanding of good as a concept.
And that’s not something fascists think about. In fact I’d argue that this message is perhaps one of the biggest things fascists fail to understand. Which is why I’d not only say AOT isn’t fascist bc it lacks fascist messaging, but because what I regard to be its central theme is fundamentally antithetical to a fascist worldview.
This is going to be very interesting to watch for a totally outsider who knows very little about the show like myself.
You're going to be confuuused ha
da roach dogg 🤍
My theory for Attack on Titan is that the author, when confronted with a choice between any character or story beat, simply went with the edgiest possible option he could think of. Since this is not conducive to a story, themes, or characters that make sense, he then had to retcon or fiat the worst of these mistakes. This process of can-kicking eventually caught up with him and it all collapsed.
I think anything the show had that might resemble coherent themes were just coincidences of wanting to have an action anime with jetpacks, giant gross monsters, and a vaguely-European aesthetic while also making it as gory and edgy as possible. All that stuff that people watching this pick up on as subtext and thematic progression were just giving the creator far too much credit, unfortunately.
Was waiting for this!
So glad I found your channel a few days ago, this video was really well structured and help answer many questions people have when talking about Isayama's intentions on the themes aot delves in. Overall a great video and can't help but notice the Murakami & Martel novels on the book shelf which are one of my favorite books and authors to read :). Can't wait to see what you make in the future!
I'm glad you did too! And happy to hear it worked for you, I tried to cover all the bases. Yes Kafka on the Shore is one of my favorite books :) Thanks for sticking around!
I feel like he got tired of writing AOT so he just tacked a ending onto it to bring it to an end quickly and that's why the tonal whiplash with the ending
The issue is - while Attack on Titan does tackle themes of war and oppression and tonnes of people latch onto that, it's ultimately about characters, ambition and stoic philosophy through a meta critique on the nature of films and escapism. Which - especially since it leant into it - meant that the ending turned out pretty bad with regards to those themes, philosophies and what it says about those situations exactly. It is ultimately is meant to be about abstaining from desire, Eren's being "freedom" or "genocide". The "Mikasa deus-ex-machina" is about that as well. She gave up her desire to be with Eren in order to do the virtuous thing and save the world.
Erwin and Kenny are meant to be characters that set up the thesis of the series. Levi and Armin are the protagonists in this regard whereas Ymir is the antithesis. Someone who couldn't give up on her desires. Eren is the same.
UNFORTUNATELY they rushed the shit out of it and didn't elaborate on any of the other stuff well.
I think Armin saying the mass-murderer line was either meant to read non-literal or was just a way of "ending the conversation" in a way that was meant to tug on people's heartstrings cause "aww they're friends and now they have to say goodbye".
I also don't think they are saying the Eldian empire is in the right - since Keith Shadis essentially said to the recruits "things are gonna go crazy nationalist but just lay low until you can make a move." and you can see the Blaus family (who are established to be in the moral high-ground most of the time) are shown in the back-ground of some kind of military exercise passing by looking depressed. Its also left unclear how the main characters feel about how things have gone since they don't comment on it, though. We don't hear anything from Historia's perspective either. I feel like you could have kept a lot of stuff from the ending and had it work but it would need to be extended a bit, elaborated on and have some changes (especially Armin and Eren's clumsy exchange where it's clear that Isayama didn't know how to explain Eren's character to the audience and didn't know how to make Armin wrap things up with him properly).
(sorry if im not articulating my point well)
Fantastic video. The discourse around Attack on Titan frustrates me between the self-proclaimed "sigma-male Jaegerists" and the gatekeepers. I just found your channel and i looked at your subscriber count and was shocked. I hope your channel becomes huge some day.
@@thotslayer9914 did... did I have a stroke or did you? wtf does "huge salts" mean 🧂🧂🧂? "asd hats"? What language is this?
I think the anime fixed the ending overall it changed that conversation with eren and armin to read more like armin forgiving and loving his friend and feeling horrible for that but being unable to look past his love for eren also the thanks for murdering people for our sake is gone lol
I just decided to finish the ending in manga after finishing the last movie released, before the final one in August.
Reading these comments and that pinned comment, with the addition of having to layer so many different analyses on many suspected assumptions we can’t confirm, plus comprehending the ending itself both narratively and thematically, my head just hurts
This video made me feel stupid in a positive way though, I didn’t appreciate many of the story’s nuances and messages, to which I thought there was little to none.
God how does one keep a critical brain on at all times it’s genuinely exhausting and I envy your skill so much LOL
I hate how they made the literal EUGENICS plan look like the objectively correct choice.
I waited till yesterday to watch this as I hadn't finished the show. Nice video! 👍🏻
I agree with you 100%. The ending is so out of place.
When I saw someone argue that AoT fans are rooting for Eren when he starts the Rumbling and that Eren is seen as the good guy in the later seasons, I was furious. Because I think that the show makes it VERY CLEAR that Erens plan is absolutely disgusting and he needs to be stopped. Of course, Izayama messed up the ending, so…
I am also convinced that most people who argue that AoT is fascist has never watched the show or read the manga. Like, it makes no sense to me. How are the Eldians fascist when they’re being treated just like the Jews were in Germany? Like, what??
I cannot believe you uploaded a video and didn't immediately tell me so now I have to watch it 2 months late like a plebeian
Maybe you should consider SmAsHiNG thAt BeLl
@@themorbidzoo i feel attacked, I feel threatened, I feel this parasocial relationship is being ruined, and I feel like dropping a drone strike on that bell icon so I will thank you
@@shmuelhoit7118 Oh noooo my authenticity!
I mean, I get what you are talking about with the racism argument, but I can't help but be reminded that, y'know, Japan was an Axis power. If this was a German production, wouldn't we be a little more skeptical of their cultural attitudes towards fictionalized WWII allegory?
I get what you’re saying, but I think it’s also important to acknowledge that many American shows and movies are made about issues we directly contributed to and they don’t get nearly the same amount of criticism. Morbid Zoo brings up Jojo Rabbit, and while America fought against Germany, they were also incredibly anti-semitic. The idea that America fought against Germany because we were morally outraged at their anti-semitism is just false- it was politics. And we not only were being incredibly anti-semitic during the war, we also put our own Japanese citizens in prison camps due to racist paranoia.
Morbid Zoo isn’t saying that we shouldn’t be critical of AOT. She’s plenty critical of it in this video, analyzing the use of racial traits and commenting on the harms of Japanese schooling. However, I think she does have a point that many American fans are critical of Japanese media in a way they aren’t critical of our media (my experience as an American is based on the behavior of American fans, so I can’t speak for how this behavior manifests on non-American fans). We’re so eager to denounce a Japanese show for “maybe being fascist” while turning a blind eye to the ways our own media treats fascism and WWII. Out of all of the movies about WWII made in America, how many have talked about the Japanese internment camps? The Biscari massacre? Some might acknowledge our own anti-Semitism, but certainly not the majority. Why aren’t we as critical of our own media as we are of Japanese media? It’s certainly not that there’s nothing in American media to criticize.
TLDR: I think we should be suspicious of Japanese media about fascism, but I think many American fans in particular would rather be disproportionally harsh and critical of Japanese media then be critical of our own media. Morbid Zoo isn’t saying we should ignore potential flaws in AOT, she’s saying we should be more aware of whether we specifically go into Japanese media looking for flaws because of biases we have.
The "nose argument" and then cutting to the Titan with its nose in the ground ajhgfsjdk
I am super behind on all things AOT (last season I watched was S2 I think?); it made me sad (not because of the twitter discourse but because of characters I loved dying T-T) but YOUR ANALYSIS IS SO THOUGHTFUL AND I LOVE IT.
I deeply agree with your analysis beginning at 20:55 and it's part of why I will read almost any genre but I'm not super invested in WWII historical novels. The Holocaust feels too close to be a "story" for me personally I guess.
Even with the warning at the beginning, having read and watched everything from SNK so far, it was difficult to watch the argument part in defense of the series that, as much as it (the argument section) makes perfect sense, the ending that Isayama gave us left a taste so bitter, so dangerous, so irresponsible... that bro, I don't even know how to end this comment, but yeah, almost 10 years of promises
I still can't believe that out of the two options, Zeke's was morally the better choice. At least in terms of outcome.
Man I am not a fan of the Manga ending
Great stuff, I’ve been missing a solid media reviewer that’s willing to dive into the deep end for a while now. Thank you for the videos they’re really engaging and thoughtful. Sorry the author on this one kinda dunked on the take so drastically. I think the interpretation that sometimes art outgrows the narrative intention of the author is a really interesting idea. Especially when fame and critical acclaim are introduced to the equation. Anywhos, keep up the good work! Looking forward to another video.
Would love you to come back and talk about the differences with the shows ending, how "cleaned up" you consider it to be
1:12 The irony of scholars not wanting to refer to priming for fear of misinterpretation is chef's kiss-worthy irony, I really have to say. If they didn't perceive it to be accurate on some level they would have no such misgiving, since they're consciously stepping around the very mechanism they ostensibly don't believe exists.
Depiction ≠ endorsement and most of the fandom cannot recognize that. I loved the ending though. It made sense to me. The ending of aot was never going to be happy. It came off as extremely bittersweet and i appreciated that. Yes i will admit the writing couldve been better and it was a tad rushed but i believe the anime will fix that. Isayama has said that the anime is the final work and the manga is just the rough draft. So im going to be hoping that the anime does the ending justice.
Really want to hear what your thoughts are about the finale of the anime and the changes they made!
They fixed armin's line perfectly in the anime. Its so good. But yeah agree with the manga criticism
The rest of the video was really really great tho. New sub
So I'm not an AoT fan and really only know it from cultural osmosis, but I did enjoy this as it helped provide some greater nuance to discussions I've seen. It does appear to maybe have a touch of the American History X issue, where it's ripe for fash exploitation, but so is Star Wars and Pepe the Frog. So you can't just assume fash because someone has a Mikasa PFP.
But I do wonder if there's a level of analysis just on "the Finale Problem". The issue so many series have with landing the whole noxious thing at the end. Even Tolkien didn't have a CLEAN landing. Took him three passes before he got it on the ground. I wonder if the creator got gun shy at the last second of damning these characters that his fans love. That if he did leave Eren as just ending up a supremely awful shit human being, fans would riot because, no matter what he'd done these fans had become attached to him.
Because I am also made to think of all the shit Hideaki Anno was put through with his Evangelion ending, and then the next ending. And then the ending after that. Each one seemingly growing almost explicitly resentful of the obsessive fans.
Or even just a level of anxiety and frustration that boiled over as the finish line was approaching and he just had an almost "fuck it, I quit" reaction. He just kinda stopped trying and just wanted to be rid of the cursed thing.
reading the manga, it is genuinely impossible for me to come to the conclusion that eren was redeemed. i will agree that the dialogue should have gotten some more room to breathe like it did in the anime adaptation, but it still didn't redeem him. eren died a monster in both. its just in the manga, isayama didn't write the same dialogue as he did for the actual finale. in the manga armin just says goodbye to his friend and thats what the "thank you" was for, in the anime armin lives on as a monster on equal footing with eren. also the mikasa deus ex machina being out of left field is a weird argument to make, considering that the story literally starts with the line "see you later, eren" which is what she says to him before she unalives him. like it her being tied to the ending had very much been set up since the beginning, it was just subtle and in the background. mikasa's imagery with the praying mantis was set up for her and erens story
You're so smart. Your critic on ch139 is perfect. I wonder if Yams was a genious and just casually did something great
He is a genius, whether or not you like 139. The foreshadowing and layered structure of seasons 1-4p2 are unmatched.
i know nothing about attack on titan and hearing “if the eldians are so dangerous how come the tibers get to keep the warhammer titan” felt like i was having a stroke, or hearing some one speaking simlish.
Zone of Interest is a nice addendum to this discourse. It's a nice contrast.
No matter how many anime reviews exist out there, no mater how good the points made in them are, at the end of the day it has ZERO effect on the anime industry.
International audience, although important commercially, is always secondary for anime producers or japanese writers in any format. They make it for themselves first and foremost.
As someone who read the manga when it released, I totally understand where you’re coming from with your stance on the ending, for the longest time I felt the same way. I think though, especially now that we have the anime/canon ending for comparison, we can safely say that the original intent of the ending was lost in translation.
The scene between Eren and Armin is not supposed to be a way to redeem Eren’s character, but rather to give the audience insight into his headspace, what was driving Eren to do what he did in the final season. After all, despite being the series protagonist for the first three seasons, it’s only natural that when he had stopped being our focal lead in the final season we would need some sort of explanation for the finale.
While the show doesn’t make everything as crystal clear as most would like, which is incredibly Attack on Titan, it is still heavily implied that Eren, despite his reasonings, was in the wrong. Armin practically says as much, and Eren doesn’t argue with his assessment, even going so far as to call himself an idiot who by chance acquired immense power. I think it’s also clear that Eren doesn’t even know whether he is in control anymore, the nature of the attack titan has scrambled his brain, and he has essentially become a slave to his childish ideal world, a world which Armin had helped to create in his mind.
For this reason, Armin also accepts blame. He feels responsible for driving his childhood friend down this path, whether intentionally or not. Again this does not excuse Eren, but rather places part of the blame on the expectations of the world others had planted in his mind.
In short, this scene serves not only to cement that Eren was undoubtedly in the wrong, but also to demonstrate how social structures create the conditions for figures like Eren to be to be born.
not sure how much of that worked in the manga
but the show now ends with
1. someone killing someone they love in order to stop a genocide cause its the right thing to do
2. someone being seen by parts of the cast as a "heroic leader figure" calling themselves and idiot
3. the surviving protagonists returning to their former home as diplomats trying to argue for peace between their former home nad hteir former enemies, scared that their own people might just sink their ship but they have to at least try
of course throughout plottwists upon plottwists it was never clear it would end that way beforehand
but thats how it ends
compared to that almost every other big fantasy epos seems to be much more in agreement with a clear friend or enemy distinction
also theres these great post timeskip moments where you see children who clearly looked up to the protagonists grow up to become soldiers as well and then die utterly pointless deaths, some of them at the protagonists own hands
You know, I live in Pennsylvania and revisionist "State's Rights" was taught here as well. I thought it was a little weird that I hadn't ever heard it that way till that class came up but being a kid you don't assume propaganda is going to be taught in school but I guess a lot of propaganda is.
I never even heard of the nose problem until now 💀💀 I face palmed so hard lmaoo
Great video btw dude !!
"Fellas, is it antisemitic to draw people with average-sized noses?" 🙄🙄 I thought maybe it was a one-off thing but no, it was in most of the "AoT is fascist" thinkpieces I read. Embarrassing.
Thanks for the watch!! ❤
The nose is my favorite because it's like "everything on a body can be fucked with. Except the noses, because otherwise it's antisemitic 😃!" Being a jew and seeing this makes me laugh but also pains me to tears
i watched it, i agreed with it, then i watched the ending and it moved me in some ways. how do we portray the fact that we know our loved ones should be cast out for what they did but we really really dont want to do it. how do we deal with that. how do we deal with things like that being irreversible
Was that line in the anime? Can't remember Armin thanking Eren for going, errm, mass murdery...
I saw the last season of AoT sick and severely sleep deprived, and after the last ep. I had the same feeling I had after I saw Full Metal Jacket and Requiem for a Dream. (Not comparing them, calm down..) A mixed feeling of, "That was good, glad I watched it" and "Fuck no, one viewing is enough"...
I need to find the book club equivalent of anime shows to find people to talk about these things...
Algorithm engagement served.
Years later.... still waiting to see how the show handles this.... holding my breath...
Since the manga & the anime is FINALLY over, CAN WE GET AN UPDATED VIDEO!?! 🤩🤩🤩🤣🤣🤣
Thoughts on it now since the anime is over
Eren's """redemption""" in the show works way better for me, just by adding ambiguity to why he did anything he did. AoT spends its entire runtime pointing at different people as the most scum bastards in the entire world that the audience wants to see eaten & turned into meaty pulp, then you find out that actually these other scum bastards are even worse, etc, before finally settling on eren, the most scum bastard of them all. I think the most fitting ending is to spend the last chapter undermining the stability we get from having an ontological enemy one last time
It also is much much less redemptive because Armin doesn't say the line (which, as far as I can tell, is in fact a subpar translation).
Actually, Marleans have an Latin/Italian Code name ( Theo Magath, Nicolo, Elena etc ), supposed to depicted the duality between the German people and the Roman Empire in Ymir period, the Eldians being a Germanic Tribe going agains the greatest empire of their period Roman/Marleans
Only halfway through the video. (And small note - I have only watched the anime and am now realizing while typing, that you mainly refer to the manga. So that's something to keep in mind.) I think your points are interesting and I agree with most of them. However, the Eldians are not necessarily just the heroes of the story. Most of them are oppressed and a lot of them are heroes and trying to save the world from Eren. However, they are also the Yaegerists and the Restorationists, who think along the lines of Eldian superiority. In the end, there really are no heroes in AOT in my opinion. I also want to acknowledge that the anime does not present any good/peaceful alternatives. I neither think the anime absolutely needs to include those nor is it fascist because it doesn't. The point is that the characters are faced with choices without good solutions. However, it's interesting to discuss why more hopeful/optimistic narrative choices were not made.
Edit:
Whoops, one second later you said that it's unclear which side in AOT corresponds to which side in history.
My interpretation was that, that moment where Armen thanks Eren is the penultimate “Gotcha!”
Because its a reveal that even beautiful and sweet Armen is a genocider too. That just because he’s kind and beautiful and sensitive doesn’t mean he too isn’t a genocidal monster who killed millions of people.
But I get why people would see it as excusing and glorifying Eren.
It's even worse if you go back and look at how Attack On Titan ignores the common man.
I’m an anime only watcher and while I know what happens at the end (vaguely) it seems pretty clear to me at this point that the Jaegerists and Eren are clearly the bad guys, though it kind of seems like they’re only depicted as bad because they went too far in their violence, not that the violence already committed, say the attack on the capital of Marley, was justified or good or necessary in achieving peace/safety for the Eldians.
No, the attack on Liberio was explicitly portrayed as a bad thing, rewatch the episodes and focus in on the survey corps' reactions to the violence.
@@PengyDrawsThank you. Eren's attack on Marley was NOT what the Survey Corps wanted, most of them agree it was horrible, and they literally imprison Eren while planning to possibly EXECUTE him for doing so. It is condemned explicitly and is meant to be a cometary on the cycle of violence. Also, it's shown at the end of Season 4 that the Eldians were actively making plans to talk it out until Eren went rogue on them. Eren and his supporters are also explicitly condemned as well. AOT is a series that leads to a lot of different interpretations, but these two things are literally shoved into our faces.
I'd never heard that fact about the human brain being better at processing stories than lectures. Thanks for dropping some references in the dooblidoo
I'm really not convinced that admiring a brutal fascist for being "frugal" necessarily absolves someone of admiring a fascist. I can walk around my town and find a fee dozen frugal people who one could admire for their frugality. When you have all the people in the world to admire, and you pick a fascist war criminal, you're telling on yourself.
This is just one example of the problem with this video. Overall, I think it is easy to make a case that the show doesn't have fascist subtext, if you pick all of the weakest and worst-reasoned arguments from the other side in order to make your point. You haven't proved to me that I shouldn't think of the narrative as fascist; you've only really made a case that these specific individuals had bad arguments.
If you think there is strawmanning here, then provide an example of a stronger argument.
I thought the issue of admiration was well addressed with the argument concerning Japanese education. Nearly every major power glosses over the uglier parts of its history and has "heroes" that would be regarded as dreadful by any non partisan observer. British school children barely learn about the British Empire, and certainly not the worst bits of it, and yet many of our nation heroes - Churchill springs to mind - are people who played a critical role in some of the horrors the BE inflicted.
Is someone, ignorant of the role that Churchill played in, say, the Bengali famine, a fascist or fascist sympathiser? Don't be ridiculous. They are just poorly informed.
And before anyone decides to say that it is their responsibility to inform themselves - epistemological Thatcherism is not a good look. It takes a education system to educate a nation, not an ideology of "knowledge personal responsibility".
@ jfc it's been almost a year
Great stuff. Shows continue to break out hearts.
The important thing about this anime & manga is that it is art. Art can be interpreted in many ways, and the way it is interpreted says much more about the beholder of the art than it does of the artist. Rarely is the artist view of their art correctly interpreted by the beholders, but the artist also doesnt have authority to force their interpretation on the beholder.
I have watched this through one time, minus the final two episodes. I would say from what i have seen, regardless of the ending, this isnt pro facism. People can certainly interpret it that way. This show had a reoccuring idea that in my opinion was pointing out that people must be more understanding of other people, the views they hold, and why they hold those views. Towards the end you see that the views of the characters while justified in their own eyes are often misunderstood by their opposition. Fear drives men to do wicked things and understanding can bring peace.
Something said many times in this show is that "we are just people like you" or something along those lines.
The show highlighted all that is wrong with humanity. It also highlighted some of our better aspects.
In the end you the viewer get to decide what you hold onto with this art. Do you cling to the fact that the hero at the start became a genocidal maniac and the villain? Or do you see what brought him to that point, and see the message that someone can become evil when they are put into a situation where they dont see any way out?
He was the hero, and what made him heroic on the island was his willingness to defend everyone and kill every last enemy. He says this in the first season, and throughout the show. Only when his enemies are given a "human face" does he start to look like a villain. His ideals didnt change. We should also remember he attacked his enemies with the same end goal his enemies had for him. To wipe every last one of them out.
Is it evil to not just defend yourself but eliminate a threat? To make sure your enemy cannot harm you again because they are no more? Its an interesting question. Another interesting question is as follows: is taking the moral high ground worth it, if you dont continue on?
At the end of the day people arent evil and they arent good. They are just people trying to live life as best they can.
Anyways thats my 2 cents.
Wonderfully put. It is 100% on the individual when it comes to how they perceive this story.
Personally, in my opinion, Eren by the end is not evil, but the rumbling is an evil act. Not only because of the action itself, but because of the circumstances and the reasoning behind it.
By that I mean that because it was carried out out of hatred and revenge, I believe it is an act of evil, even though Eren is not an evil person.
I believe that the rumbling can’t be justified, the same way the attack in the very beginning that kickstarted the story can’t be justified. Ultimately the reasons for both attacks were for each side to survive. Marley thought if they didn’t eradicate Eldians, they’d all be killed. Eren thought if he didn’t eradicate everyone that wasn’t Eldian, they’d all be killed. Their loved ones, their dreams, their homes, their pets, their homelands, all of them feared losing it all.
Are the people that perpetuate the cycle of violence over this thousands of years long conflict idiots? Yes. Is the history and reasoning of the conflict nonsensical? Yes. But the reality around them of course still impacts them. It’s up to them how they handle that reality.
Eren handled it by using the power of the founder to try to destroy humanity. And in my opinion, even with the circumstances he was faced with, the trauma he was dealt, and the fact that he couldn’t change the memories he saw, it is still an act of evil. Brought on by an entire history of evil. The worst of humanity, bringing out the worst of humanity.
Just my opinion though!
I was also baffled by that ending, truly ruined it for me, it's just, absurd, awful
Great video. I couldn't watch it full because I haven't read the last manga chapter or seen the anime ending. But thanks for the video!
I was able to follow the series in the beginning but then the story got so insanely convoluted for me.... so many characters, characters that started looking alike, flashbacks/scene nonsequitors, characters changing affilliations all over the place... who''s'' good', who''s 'bad' at the moment, then all these different 'groups' of peoples who' are all fighting against each other that I couldn''t keep track of how or why anymore. Then there's the final chapters of sorts that I have no idea what all that was supposed to finalize. Hey if any of you could make heads or tales out of this show, you're a genius afaik, lol.
Thank you for the thoughtful anaylsis!! I really appreciate the message!
Just watched the show. Couldn’t agree more. Armin is so out of character too. Like yeah Armin has an attachment to Eren but Armin believes in justice first. I could never see him saying the words he did. Mikasa maybe bc of her seemingly lack of autonomy over her own fixation with Eren. Bleh.
I was even willing to stomach it until the “I wanted to do it” like stoppppp pick a laneeeee ahhhhhh
The bit about even a borderless painting being defined by where the artist decided to stop painting is pretty poignant when considering where and how the manga ended.
6:30 I love this because LotR kinda was a sleeper hit! Published in 1954 to mixed reception, with a few critics enthusiastic, it didn't become a cultural phenomenon until the middle 60s! Love it
Mappa abusing their staff, the disappointment of AoT manga ending and now the untimely passing of Kentaro Miura. Wow 2021 is "amazing", ain't it?....
Just remember every day is one step closer to the sweet release of the grave :)
@@themorbidzoo It's the kind of sweetness that we probably won't be able to experience though, so... yay? 🤔😳