I honestly think these managers should face criminal charges for gross negligience. That is how a doctor would be treated if they acted in this manner.
Mind Begs the Question: Hitler - shifted blame for Nations Failures on Religious Minority If Politicians/Govts - shift blame for Nations Failures on Vulnerable/Immigrants Practicing Hitlers Mein Kampf,no?
They are not going to get anything, especially for for gross negligience. My friend's dad work at NHS in London and he is at very high level, i think somewhere below director level.... He is living best of his life! He said no one can touch him, If someone below director level have such attitude imagine at the director level!?
Are you really suggesting that they ignored or even helped the events unfold? Do you know how serious a job like this is? It runs the risk of court sentences for neglect...unlike most jobs. These people did not have the evidence that a baby killer was on the ward.
@DrumsTheWord "I will draw a line under this, you will draw a line under this and if you cross this line, there will be consequences". What does that tell you?
It must be utterly deflating and depressing for the doctors and nurses who were raising concerns, and were completely dismissed until it was much too late.
This case in itself shows that " whistleblowing" is flawed and that so called transparency is murky at its least. I've had first hand experience, I left my role in healthcare because of it. The management covers up and then claims no knowledge when s*it hits. Sad but true.
There are other options you know. Ignore the hospital and go to the cops anyway (or is your career more important than baby murders?). If he got fired, so what? Once it was proven murders were occurring, he would have had his job reinstated anyway. Could have gone to police, even anonymously and likewise could have anonymously contacted child protection services, who pass on something that serious to police and it HAS TO be investigated, once they do that. You can just do all of this online and from a public computer if you don't want to use your own device.
Senior managers have as much blood on their hands as Lucy for turning a blind eye. They need to be put on trail and immediately sacked with no golden payoffs
I’m a retired paediatric nurse who has worked on units such as this, and for my life I can’t understand why Lucy Letby did this. Such a wicked, evil thing to do to vulnerable, helpless babies. My heart goes out to the parents who have not only gone through the trauma of a premature birth but who have also had to deal with a death that should not have happened. The staff would also have been traumatised by this. A death on the unit, even through normal circumstances, is tragic and would have had a massive impact on everyone concerned with the baby’s care. I can remember leaving a shift after a baby I had nursed had died - I held myself together for the parents sake but once I got into my car, I burst into tears. I can’t imagine how the nurses and doctors felt during the time they watched these babies dying. And shame on management. I don’t have a high opinion of hospital management anyway, and this story proves why I believe they should be held to account for their lack of action. I hope the parents sue the hospital.
Is it possible for the managers to transfer nurses associated with a number of 'unlucky patients' deaths' to lower-risk wards or clerical work? The managers in this case should be charged with gross negligence!
@@derekl5517 the hospital managers (not clinicians) eventually moved her to a 'low-risk' role. It turned out that this administrative role gave her access to sensitive records at the time when concerns had been raised about there conduct.
@@pamclarke6785 Really? Even though you'd been specifically ordered not to contact the police? That you'd been told that anybody who persisted in being disruptive, bullying, continuing to make inappropriate, unevidenced allegations would face 'consequences' (which would include being referred to your national regulator for investigation and possible striking off)? And, what do you think the police would have done with your 'call'? I'll tell you. They' d have encouraged - insisted even - that you and the hospital management, the very people who were denying there was a problem, got together and really looked at your allegations and told the police what you'd all concluded - which would be that you had jumped the gun, had only suspicions rather than evidence and that the hospital would continue to 'monitor' the situation and update the cops in the future. And that, my friend would have been the end of your career and livelihood. I worked in UK hospitals for 38 years - 26 as a consultant physician. You clearly didn't.
The fact the concerns of doctor's and nurses were ignored is beyond shocking. The management had knowledge and ignored it, they should face charges also.
Those doctors and nurses could have anonymously contacted police and child protection services and the hospital would have no way of knowing who contacted them.
@@katcankan7129 Assuming? It's already been proven that Police acted immediately upon finding out. I used to work in CPS and even if reported anonymously, something that serious, as per their policy, gets passed onto their Police contacts straight away (as in Police and detectives that specifically deal with child abuse crimes and murders). Lives would have been saved if only these medical workers had anonymously reported what was going on. Even worse is, all hospitals have a CPS liaison person assigned to their hospital, or even working in their hospital. There's no excuse they never discussed what was happening with this person. That person would have notified Police.
The management were in the right here ironically. This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
After Lucy Letby left they downgraded the unit, so no way of knowing if the deaths stopped because she left or because they stopped looking after babies there that were born so prematurely. This fuels suspicion that Luct Letby has been made a scapegoat for institutional failings.
I hope he and others healthcare professionals on the ward sue the senior management and NHS top brass for severe negligence, cover-up, and failure to believe professionals using their judgements. How she managed to nurse for two further years after senior doctors raised concerns? It’s madness - the senior management are just as culpable as the baby killer nurse in the deaths of any babies that died after the doctors brought their concerns to management.
@@italianstallion9170 yes I agree, I’m sure they are suing too. As a teacher, if I had consistently reported a colleague and my management had done nothing; and then a major safe guarding issue took place despite my warnings, I would indeed sue management for negligence to believe staff and failure to follow up safeguarding in an appropriate manner. However that being said, had I been forced to work with a colleague despite my protests and that of others, I would simply refuse to work or get the staff as a collective to demand that the colleague is placed on leave pending investigation. Ps - most junior doctors aren’t that well paid, even senior doctors aren’t on mega money as the Daily Mail union busters would have you believe.
@italianstallion9170 I don't think the OP was implying that the doctors deserve some sort of payout, or something more than the families. I think they were trying to say that the doctors are in a stronger position to change the system by taking legal action because they know what the failures were, exactly what happened when they raised their concerns, and they know the rules well enough to know exactly where the management screwed up and what should be changed to prevent this from happening again. In short, they'd be more likely to succeed and have changes implemented to ensure that the same mistakes aren't made again. "Sue" might have been an unfortunate choice of word, I think they meant for the docs to take legal action, rather than seek a payout. The parents have been through so much and, if they decide that they have the strength to sue, then more power to them. But they shouldn't be put through more stress and they shouldn't have to fight. Everyone involved should recognise how wrong this was and should want to put an end to it. However, having worked in a hospital, I know that the only people with the power to make management listen are the senior doctors. Everyone else gets ignored.
This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
This man has nothing to regret. He is ped consultant and he wrote to his seniors and informed them. There is chain of command and he cannot simply call the police without investigation. He did the best he could at the time. Thank you and good luck Dr
Yes and no. Too many people are simply pencil pushers and we need to always be aware that in the face of potential danger we can always do more. Must do more. For anyone who has worked with incompetent, lazy managers the chain of command means nothing. So unless you're working with people who have stellar integrity, leave nothing to chance. Most people in managerial positions care ONLY about their own jobs and not causing waves. Granted no one wants to believe something horrific can happen but does that make it okay to ignore warnings, red flags? No. In my decades of working I've seen more bad management than good.
These babies do not have the chance of hindsight, the colleagues will have to live with their own regrets. Transparency in healthcare is murky and this management knowingly covered up concerns raised. They should be held accountable for their negligence at the very least.
Some people probably would consider it a privacy violation. Multiple doctors/consultants insisted the only way Lucy letby could be returned to the unit was with cctv monitoring in every room. She had been removed from the unit after the collapses of babies O and P. And never returned to the unit. And I don’t believe cctv was ever installed.
Can you imagine going to the police to report a SK nurse of premature babies* I wouldn't even have the guts to convince myself of such monstruosity. I know from the B Allitt's case one of the nurses that worked with her committed suicide after BA was found guilty.
@@barbaracameron8292 there's no point in calling the police, managers were supporting Letby, she was a member of the trust and had good relations with T Chambers
I'm a person who has always raised the alarm when I sense something is off. Never once was anyone welcoming or open to my input or warnings. They wanted me to shut up. When it comes to business and profit, absolutely no one is ever open to the possibility something is afoot and in need of investigation or change. No one wants to disrupt the status quo or appearance of "everything's okay." This is what happens when you let your greed and fear overtake humanity and plain old common sense. Not this pediatrician but the entire managerial staff whose job it is to protect the staff and all its patients.. Shame on them! Honestly, how difficult would it have have been to call police!? People stood in the way of making sure lives were saved. Selfish and cowardly people who are supposed to strongly lead and, yes, have courage. So much failure went on, it's mind-boggling.
All the 'senior managers' should be investigated and charged. They must be resigned and their photos and names should reported to the public so that it could make them harder to find jobs.
IMO It’s really difficult if you raise concerns about someone especially if they have a mental health background. If you mention concerns to do with the person’s wellbeing and mental state and how this impacts their work the barriers go up with management.IMO there is an ethos now that an employee’s mental health background and personality even,is irrelevant and we need to all be kind and inclusive. The management in this case were imo afraid of being accused of bullying and discrimination and bringing negative press to the hospital. They should have involved the police early on. I think cameras should be put up in baby units now. But everyone should be informed incase mums are breastfeeding whatever
Everyone on those wards are either new mothers, fathers or medical staff....breastfeeding is very very low on the list of worries and screens are available for those who really are that shy. The nurses are all top Drawer.............except for this one deranged psychopath !
I do think the doctors could have ignored the management and gone to cops. I mean this was murder and they were more interested in protecting their careers. They also could have contacted police online (from a public computer if they were that paranoid) and reported it that way, or done that with child protection services, who would have passed it onto police to investigate and legally they have to.
IF YOU WANT TO STOP THIS EVER HAPPENING AGAIN: Write to your MP demanding that a proper, STATUTORY PUBLIC ENQUIRY - one where hospital managers CANNOT HIDE behind NDAs and professional privilegeor refuse to give evidence - is ordered. Make these people properly accountable! And, for Pete's sake: where is the professional licensing scheme for hospital managers - and the regulator, the General Medical Managers Council, which can STRIKE THEM OFF when they fail to perform? The Bristol Heart Scandal Enquiry (1998) demanded this and yet managers have dodged, ducked and dived ever since to avoid ANY regualtion at all.
@@Wealthandlove-Everyone If this is an issue you feel strongly about, and you're not a UK citizen, you'd need to write to central government, or perhaps the health minister.
This doctor placed a at risk baby in a side room with the alarms turned off telling nobody and was chastised by Letby for this. He admitted his negligence only after it was shown it was him. The level of medical care in the ward was below an acceptable level - junior doctors were reluctant to seek his assistance with procedures they were unable to perform. They attempted these procedures e.g. iv line insertions up to 3 times the number protoccols permitted hence unacceptable delays in providing fluids and nutrition This is on him. Raw sewerage was leaking into the ward via the false ceiling directly over the babies cots in the ward icu area where the sickest babies were for nearly a year. He did nothing about this. Letby was working on the ward when 6 of the deaths she was charged with occurred the two having been move to another hospital just prior to their deaths. Another 23 babies died in the unit when she was not present. Statistically it seems the babies were safer when she was working. The evidence of air being deliberately injected is non existent and the claim that insulin had been added to TPN bags should have declare inadmissible. An inapropriate test was used which does not provide evidence for this and none of the bags were tested anyway. In truth there is no evidence any babies were murdered, no motive has been established, no method has been established and Letby had no greater opportunity than other staff including the medical staff.
The whole ''point'' of child abuse is that its hidden. They go to great effort to cover it up. The Drs should have a clean conscience. They TRIED to flag up their fears. The Management Team should be punished for their incompetence and disbelief. They need to take a chunk of responsibility for enabling more babies deaths. The ones with the most responsibility should be dismissed. The rest should go through rigorous training. I am a retired Midwife, by the way.
Former domestic assistant here. I thought you either were or had been clinical staff before I read the last sentence. It's so easy to tell who has & who hasn't worked in the NHS from these comment sections tonight. Those who haven't are so gushy & overwrought. Those of us who have are so grimly aware of how this happened, the cracks in the system this woman hid in & how it will inevitably happen again. It goes beyond retraining in my opinion. Unless by retraining you mean having to walk around the hospital doing all the really awful clinical disposal & housekeeping work that needs doing. 6 months of carrying those yellow buckets with placentas in up from the Labour unit to the clinical bins would make them think... It would give them a proper understanding of how a hospital functions from the ground up & that's what they need. (I could never believe how much those buckets weighed by the way, placentas be damn heavy!)
Lucia de Berk (born 22 September 1961), often called Lucia de B., is a Dutch licensed paediatric nurse who was the subject of a miscarriage of justice. In 2003, she was sentenced to life imprisonment, for which no parole is possible under Dutch law,[1] for four murders and three attempted murders of patients under her care. In 2004, after an appeal, she was convicted of seven murders and three attempted murders.Her conviction was controversial in the media and among scientists, and it was questioned by the investigative reporter Peter R. de Vries. In October 2008, the case was reopened by the Dutch Supreme Court, as new facts had been uncovered that undermined the previous verdicts. De Berk was freed, and her case retried; she was exonerated in April 2010
Richard Gill, a statistician showed that the evidence used to convict this nurse was faulty - a statistical error had been commited by an expert witness, a Dr Roy Meadows, who has since been struck off. To quote Richard Gill "There is not a shred of evidence against Lucy"
As a new mother of a 2 month old, this is absolutely horrific and hits harder than it would a few weeks ago. Those parents must be absolutely devastated. Evil.
As a new mother be careful about believing in witch hunts. I thought they had gone our in the 18th century but I was wrong. Ex midwife who has read some of the 'evidence'. It smells to me.
This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
I understand that the whole subject is very tragic and sensitive 😞 . I listen to "Crimescene 2 Court" with Jon narrating !!! . I think it,s fair to say that the KC is (brilliant) but neurotic !!!...... and he's made omissions (very quickly indeed) ...... that the jury would overlook 😞 . I won't say too much here ..... but i know doctors can "give the pass the slip" ...... as doctors have been "VERY KIND" to me 😞 . But the consultants .......... wow .. i owe my life to them .... they are great and my local hospital ?????.................. I LOVE EM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All the senior managers who ignored DOCTORS, should also be held to account and tried for this.. if its a case of a cover up to preserve funding or whatever the motive, they should suffer a similar fate to Letby
I'd like to believe Dr Gibbs but there's lots of contradictions here. The issue with Letby was brought about as an issue of competency, yet here Dr Gibbs emphasises deliberate harm from the outset, that the consultants had concerns about harm being done much earlier on for babies that were apparently doing ok. If that was realised by himself in early 2016, or before, that it was a matter of imminent danger to babies, not incompetence of a nurse, then why not go direct to the police immediately? Do you really say 'Hey, we have a murderer on our ward, but let's just leave it for the time being and see if they kill some more before we go to the police'. That seems hard to believe. Rather, it looks more like the murderer accusation was pinned retrospectively on what was, by all accounts, a grudge between Letby and the consultants over her competency in 2015-16. In fact she was moved off ward in 2016 over a competency issue. Turning a competency issue into a murder charge is an escalation, given her own escalation against the consultants over a grievance and their competency. And it draws a clear line (management's words) under her position, to get rid of this pesky nurse that was raising complaints about doctors' competency (leaving baby monitors off, not being available in emergency situations) and get rid of this nurse from off the ward permanently.
There was no competency issue - she was moved because of the Consultants unsupported accusations. The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health did a report on the unit in 2016 and in it they praised Lucy Letyby as competent, highly skilled nurse while pointing out the failings of the medical staff and the hospital admin.
It truly beggars belief how a rampant spate of deaths, which all had the exact same details (all babies, all at the same hospital, the same nurse was on duty for all of the deaths) wasn’t caught much sooner, as a clear pattern started to emerge.
Listening/watching the Dr Death podcast & doc really opened my eyes to how willing Western medical establishments are to overlook dangerous murderers on staff, for fear of legal fees and damage to the hospital's reputation. It's shocking and horrifying how much money and PR/reputational concerns overrides the Hippocratic oath to 'do no harm'. That and believing doctors over patients complaints. I imagine they might have this story for another series of Dr. Death.
There are victims babies A through Q. Alarm bells were raised after baby D. And again I believe two more times, throughout the year. The hospital managers, denied it, made doctors who raised suspicions write apologies to Lucy etc
Has Dr Gibbs not heard of the Child Death Overview Panel? He had a duty to report his suspicions to them and to the Coroner who found the babies died from natural causes.
Consultants who do a ward round x2 per week on a special care baby unit are negligent. What else were they doing while sho's and junior doctors were dealing with sick babies. Are they covering their arses??
Being someone who has worked for the NHS, I knew that whatever the outcome of the trail this would happen. A discovery that management were not listening to the concerns of staff, or taking any serious action. I have worked for a number of trusts and this seems to be the norm.
The doctors used this national distrust trope of management uselessness to help swing public opinion in their favour. This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
I was tortured by security guards at Peterborough City Hospital, last year. Although the incident was recorded on CCTV, the hospital complaints department lied to the police to close ranks. I have also worked in an NHS hospital. The issue isn't our doctors and nurses, who with very rare exceptions are heroes, but non-medical staff, a disgustingly large minority of which, are unemployables. People in positions of responsibility, with learning difficulties and/or mental health issues, that make them incapable of making ethical decisions.
A pile of faff! They are FORCED into care work by UK jobcentre laws! These are normal people with no interest whatsoever in healthcare Sv's. It means they don't have the temperament for the job. They take it or their social security will be cut off by the government. No one in the UK is allowed to even comprehend forcing learning disabled people into work. Your comment is irresponsible and completely ridiculous.
Certainly there needs to be a public inquiry everyone needs to know who knew what and when & if there is criminal negligence , this is so serious & the consequences so appalling for the babies & their families every eff
@@paulrichards6894 action speaks louder than words. These people will never see a prison cell because they blames the trust for their own mistakes. "No they will not investigate and suspend a killer nurse because it will them look bad.
The doctors used this national distrust of management trope to help swing public opinion. This was in fact a vicious bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
This interview actually lends more weight to the argument that Lucy Letby is innocent rather than guilty. Dr Gibbs admits that he spotted as "association" between her presence and the incidents. An association is useful but means nothing - and it's ripe for all kinds of biases and fallacies, especially if Dr Gibbs is the one bringing in the police with his 'suspicions'. This then influences the whole police investigation (who - let's face it - aren't always the brightest). Why immediately dismiss Lucy Letby's potential incompetence as a reason and instead assume foul play? What about the potential incompetency of other healthcare workers, including the doctors? Also, admitting that statements were given to police years afterwards and that details have been forgotten is admitting that evidence is weak. If police had been called in early 2016 then that might have proven there was no evidence of any one person causing the incidents. People seem to think that doctors and consultants are infallible, perfect beings who always get things right and are not subject to the same errors of perception as the rest of us mortals.
All the babies she was accused of harming had either a diagnosis or symptoms of sepsis. The adjoining maternity ward had one of the highest rates of stillbirths in the UK and the stroke unit above the neonates had a very high rate of hospital acquired infections. THe Cheshire hospital rank 5th from the bottom for infection control in the UK.
I am a retired nurse of 6 years, after a 25 year career in surgical and medical nursing. This story again drives home the need to Listen to staff, and act. My heart is broken for the families, and stag involved. Management must be held accountable for failing to act
What warnings could there possibly be when the babies Lucy was supposed to have murdered had post mortems and were found to have died from natural causes?
harmony3395. I think you are right. I certainly think she has been stitched up on false evidence. The main stream media play a great in fomenting these false prosecution cases.
As Peter Blexley rightly pointed out they couldve called crimestoppers anonymously if they has suspicions and felt they werent being heard. It would then at the very least have been recorded and investigated by police that way.
The cases of infant deaths at The Countess of Chester Hospital carried on increasing even after Letby had left the unit. They only started to decline once Dr Gibbs resigned and left the hospital. 🤔
@@blueberry7899 ONS (Chester/Chester West). MBRRACE (stabilised and adjusted), MBRRACE (crude). CoCH - Freedom of Information Request. Neonatal deaths per 1000 live births between 2013 - 2021
The hospital administrators ignored the concerns of doctors. Thing is- the doctors left it in the hands of these administrators far too long. Nothing but concern for their own standing was keeping them from going straight to police immediately. How many “angels of death” serial killer cases has this happened? Every one I’ve seen this was the case. The hospital only acted when they had no other choice. In other cases hospitals that suspected staff only released them from employment allowing them to go to another hospital to kill. Frankly I don’t see how people trust these institutions with their lives to any degree!!!!
What I don't understand is why concerned doctors didn't go directly to the police with their concerns, when it was clear enough that hospital management weren't going to progress this matter? Sure you may be risking your jobs, but babies were dying FFS, so, IMHO, you were ethically bound to take that risk. Besides, there should be external safeguards in place against unfair dismissal for going directly to the police on an issue this serious. It should be well within the rights of an employee who isn't getting sufficient progress on the matter from management. If anything, hospital management should also be put on trial for attempting to pervert the course of justice, or gross negligence, or something!
Yes but it’s easier now looking back and I’m sure many of them feel that way now too but during the time they kept being told internal and external investigations are taking place etc (which would normally be the next step), they probably hoped that things are being investigated etc but later became evident that investigations were not taking place. Also the people above the doctors in a way were gaslighting them. Once they were certain the hospital isn’t following protocol and investigating these deaths they did involve the police. It’s so sad how little control the actual medical experts have and how little they and their opinions are valued
@@Akka992 Well, perhaps, but as soon as a correlation was found between the deaths and Lucy's shifts, I would have gone straight to the police with it. At that point, it is a police issue and not an internal management issue! Give it to the police to sort out. Suspicion of murder is not something for internal investigation!
@@stephenthorpe3591I agree. It’s better to be safe than sorry. Healthcare professionals should have gone with their gut instinct and went above hospital managements head. Not sure how the NHS works but as a nurse in California I know there are regulatory agencies that you can report your suspicions to and also the police should have been contacted.
@@alastairbarkley6572 yes and they ignored the consultant doctors. As a standard it seems to be that nursing staff are better placed as they have more longevity in a place. Even as consultants, the nursing staff hold more sway on certain things in my experience. Which nurses voiced concerns?
The top brass need to be investigated and removed from any hospital period. They’re are equally guilty. It’s not an isolated situation where senior hospital management ignore or bully staff on the shop floor. It’s all about money and saving their their own skins. And incompetence. I hear of such things all the time from my local hospital. Also abuse of hospital funds. Especially donations from patients. Who leave in their wills a sum of money for the department who cared for them. The money taken for other areas and invested in random companies who charge for the management of the money. Infact charges in their £1000s.
I think the nhs needs to reform the managerial role. Managers need to have medical knowledge. They need to have gone to medical or nursing school. They need to have worked on the wards before. They should not be from any other non healthcare backgrounds!!
I went into nursing in 1979, at that time Consultants in the hospital were treated like Demi-Gods, I'm not even exaggerating , they were treated with the utmost respect and reverence. I think it is mind boggling, that in this case so many senior consultants voiced concerns about this nurse, and bureaucrats not only ignored their concerns, but actually accused them of bullying the nurse in question, and then forced them to apologise! Things sure have changed in the NHS when such senior consultants are treated worse than the cleaners, and I await charges for Lucy Letby's accomplices, who are all the people who allowed her to carry on murdering babies.
The cumulative infant mortality rate at the Countess of Chester Hospital, for 2015 and 2016 was lower than the national average. There was an unusual trend in the pattern of stillbirths and perinatal deaths. The number of perinatal deaths in 2017 and 2018 was higher than in 2015 and 2016, but Lucy Letby was not on the ward in these years In June 2019, Dr Gibbs retired. Dr Gibbs was the Senior Consultant who accused Lucy Letby of murdering infants. In that same year the number of perinatal deaths and stillbirths dramatically declined.
It was not Dr Gibbs who was with each infant just prior to their collapse, it was Lucy Letby! And Dr Gibbs was not the consultant who first realised that Letby was with each infant just prior.
@@truthseeker444 The hospital already had severe failings in the neonatal department. The entire case centres around the fact that she was present for the 'suspicious' cases, and that it was 'statistically unlikely' that there could be any other explanation than she killed them all. There have been other very similar cases in which statistical assertions made in court have ultimately been shown to have no merit whatsoever. There is no hard evidence demonstrating that Letby committed these crimes. 1. Show the rotas for ALL the paediatricians during that time period also. 2. Every piece of evidence was circumstantial. 3. The prosecution expert witness has had previous case thrown out of the appeal court for overreach. 4. An 18 month medical review revealed nothing. 5. There was a six-month period in which nothing suspicious happened at all. By this time, according to the prosecution, Letby had already murdered and attempted to murder several babies. But then she stopped for half a year, despite the fact that the opportunity was still there. This is not consistent with previous incidences of serial killers, whose behaviour typically spirals out of control once they begin killing. 6. Stephen Brearey had over a year to report his suspicions of working with a serial killer to the police, why didn't he? Why did he put his career before babies lives?
@@truthseeker444 Dr Ravi made the 'standing over' a baby claim. Dr Ravi Jayaram, then did absolutely nothing about it. He supposedly felt "extremely uncomfortable" about Letby being left alone with a child, yet the defence noted the following: He asked the jury to consider if the consultant had really seen "what he says he saw do you think he would have taken his eyes off Ms Letby for one moment from that point on, seriously?" "We say the most striking feature is how he did nothing, despite what he claimed to the police over a year later," he added. Mr Myers noted that Dr Jayaram never raised a formal internal complaint, via the Datix reporting system, about the alleged incident. "If things happened the way he tells us there's absolutely no way he would allow this to happen twice more, in front of him, it's unbelievable," he said. "He would be watching her like a hawk".
If I were the parents of these babies who fell victim to Letby's crimes I would be seeking criminal charges against the one who employed her and allowed her to continue carrying out her murders while the mounting factors and evidence was stacking up.
She was convicted of killing baby C - it turns out this was impossible. She was not on the ward from the time of Baby C's admission to the day of its death. The X-ray "proving a air embolism" was taken the day before she returned to the unit.
I recall the vile Beverley Allitt and the atrocities she bestowed upon so many… this is another incredibly sad time for so many of the family, staff and the profession… to be a nurse is to love, care, advocate and nurture… not this…. Not this xx
She did it. She even wrote she did it! People like you will excuse her due to your own agendas and biases. Who poisoned the bags with insulin ? Who caused the trauma to that one babies liver? Who caused the trauma to the other babies throat?
@@sasha5527 And people like you probably will blame anyone when you don't know the answer. Her writings were cherry picked and when I read even just that bit I thought it was the ramblings of someone who felt guilty because she couldn't protect the babies. I believed she was a hard working, highly conscientious person who took responsibility when things went wrong around her. I think your biases and intolerance of not knowing forces you to point fingers at the most suitable for scapegoating.
@@sasha5527 Here is your question mark: ?. I did answer although I didn't have to. You seem to be blinded by your own bias. If you could tolerate not knowing you wouldn't need scapegoats so quickly. I don't even argue that this woman is innocent. What I am saying is that the so called evidence is laughable and there is a lot of doubt. If those babies were murdered as opposed to hospital negligence, there are plenty of other murder suspects they never looked into. There were plenty of deaths when she wasn't at work which they ignored. The percentage of deaths were correlated to her work hours, no more. So anyone who worked there could have been charged with murder if they picked other babies who died in that ward. Also Lucy Letby raised concerns herself and some people were not happy, so they got together and turned the tables.
@@sasha5527 Nobody- there is no evidence any TPN bags were interfered with and up to 15% of neonates do produce excessive natural insulin within the first few days after birth. Both these babies were discharged home well within a couple of days of the "incidents". The NYT article points out that there was at least one other instance of a baby producing high levels of insulin naturally during the relevant time period but this was not attributed to foul play.
I think the doctor is tallking trash. 0:03 "It was the unusual nature of their collapses. The way they didn't respond as we'd expect to resuscitation. And for some of them, some unusual features, such as strange rashes". I asked Google a simple question "what percentage of premature babies die in an icu", and Google replied: "Between July 1, 2016, to May 31, 2018, 4919 preterm infants were enrolled in the study and 3852 were admitted to neonatal intensive care units. By 28 days of post-natal age, 1109 (29%) of those admitted to the neonatal intensive care unit died". Is this court case against Letby some kind of coverup, and to what agenda?
RIP poor babies. were lessons not learnt from Beverly Allitt? Why did those senior managers not listen to the evidence and why didn't those well educated Doctors not call in the police they must have must have put 2 and 2 together!?
Well Hospitals have protocols in place and police isn’t usually the first step, the hospital failed as they didn’t conduct the investigations properly. The doctors had an inclination but no evidence. The internal and external investigations should have provided that evidence which would then automatically trigger the next step to involve police but the investigations were never done properly. As doctors they can only do so much and they followed the protocols in place, once they saw all of these have failed police was involved. The doctors in this case aren’t to blame, management is.
This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
German here, we had a case of a nurse killing adult critical care patients (many not end of life care cases) and in that case there also were warnings that were not acted on by the hospitals. In fact he could carry on for years and killed dozens (the exact number will probably never be known because the bodies are just too decomposed after a few years to prove it)
Lucy Letby was framed and is a scapegoat for the failings of the hospital. There were plenty of deaths when she wasn’t at work and apparently statistics improved after they made changes to what kind of patients they admit. She is clearly a hard working, conscientious and disciplined person who is extremely empathetic, so questioned herself among other things when the babies died. interesting that people still blame the hospital while believing she did kill the babies.
@@sasha5527 Apparently babies do have high insulin levels because of the mother's gestational diabetes and two tests that were done raised this as a possibility. The insulin as evidence was debunked long ago and some other health professional's guilty verdicts overturned. The problem was Lucy Letby's defence team did not do a good job. In UK defence teams often collude with the police, prosecution or the judges. I think the establishment hoped they can avoid blaming the NHS and a compensation case by the parents by scapegoating someone instead of accepting the failings of the ward.
If she had done it why would she be questioning it? She was wondering if someone else did it. Probably she didn’t know newborn babies could have high insulin from the mother
@@justiceandlifeinlondon2888 🙄 yeah….okay. I guess those babies must have just injected their own bags with insulin, inflicted their own throat and liver injuries, caused their own air embolisms and turned their own alarms off. I guess every doctor there is just misogynistic and I guess Lucy just likes writing false confessions on post it notes.
The senior management sector of the NHS has been part of huge privatisation rollout campaigns - a good chunk of the senior managerial infrastructure is outsourced to private companies. This is a product of privatisation. Hence, why we see nurses in American doing this type of thing all the time.
yes, thanks for reply. i was told about the planned destruction of the NHS over 8 years ago, by a producer at ITV. They wanted me on GMB because i had had a 5 year fight with the NHS to get a wheelchair for my disabled child. It was promised to us, then the cutbacks came into force and they reversed their decision. The reason for my childs disability was hospital negligence to start with, she was a prem baby who they didnt look after properly, so this story has really affected me today, as we've spent what must be years now in hospitals all over UK. i think these things go on far more than public realises, obviously Letby is an extreme case but very interesting how the managers tried to cover it all up.@@EastAsianCinemaHistory
see my above comment you ignoramus. I am half french, half scots hence its the name my dad gave me as a baby..Any more pedantic comments ? @@serinadelmar6012
Right from the outset, the very doctors who were the subject of a previous investigation over neonatal deaths at the hospital were recruited by police and became Lucy Letby's accusers. How in any objective realm do potential suspects assist the investigators of another suspect?
It's far more sinister....it's a great example of endemic corruption lack if accountability and old boys networks that operate in plain sight in the UK. One wonders what weight Letby's Father had with Snr Managers?
If a single parent would stay 24/7 with babies, could on turns, there may be a crucial witness of what exactly happened. Why no one questioning this aspect?
The maladjustment of this whole process is the fact that there were very serious concerns raised about a member of staff whose levels of concerns were serious enough to be placed within the capacity of high risk, yet she was returned to duty in a department where she was left alone& felt able to carry out her heinous action with an obvious assurance of success. Her shift record would surely show a record of how a unit of neonatal care could be a risk in an emergency. Were alarms in situ and a report of circumstances made when each of these emergen ies arose?
Sadly, I can't see Sir David Davis succeeding in his quest to free Lucy but it is good to see that high profile people and thousand of members of the public are at least trying to get justice for an innocent woman. I've been saying for over a year now that, once more and more people start looking into how the CPS really built their "case" against Lucy and see how their medical expert Dewi Evans came to work for them*(and what a judge at another trial said about him**), more and more people will realise this is the biggest miscarriage of justice ever! People don't seem to realise that these babies were only in that hospital because they were gravely ill and as other people have pointed out, there's no evidence to suggest they were murdered, in fact everyone accepted they'd died naturally until the CPS came up with some suggestions for how they might have died with no physical evidence years later and people with a vested interest in blaming others for the hospital's failings conveniently recalled seeing Letby doing something untoward. Put it this way, these desperately ill babies either died naturally, died through the incompetence of everyone who worked at the hospital or were murdered. Having followed the trial, seen how Dewi Evans came to work on the case*(and what other judges think of his reliability**) and read Richard Gill's brilliant blog and The New Yorker article, I've concluded that the third option is by far the least likely thing to have happened. Given that Letby's defence team won't explain why they refused to call crucial witnesses for the defence, i.e medical experts who were waiting to argue why she is innocent, you have to wonder if she was being stitched-up by all sides! You could also question why their plan of attack was to ridiculously suggest that somebody else murdered the babies rather than to sensibly suggest that they weren't murdered at all, which is the truth! marykistnen154 wrote "Please explain her own notes about herself saying she was evil for doing what she did." "I killed them because I'm not good enough to care for them" is a very strange thing for a serial killer to write but is an understandable thing to write when you think your incompetence(which was rife thoughout the hospital) may have led to babies dying and your mind has been turned to mush after being wrongly-accused of multiple murders. *Evans read about Letby's arrest and got in touch with the police/CPS to "offer his services". It's not hard to work out what he meant when he said he would offer his services to them! **A judge at another trial called his evidence "biased and worthless". Search the following: "Richard Gill Statistics Lucy Letby case" and "Lucy Letby New Yorker."
There was no motive , there was nothing in the background, there was nothing in the evidence either. The doctors used this national distrust of management trope to help swing public opinion. This was in fact a vicious bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
You can see him almost crying. My grandpa was head of a medical department at a huge hospital. He took his responsibility very serious. It would kill him to have this happen.
The cumulative infant mortality rate at the Countess of Chester Hospital, for 2015 and 2016 was lower than the national average. There was an unusual trend in the pattern of stillbirths and perinatal deaths. The number of perinatal deaths in 2017 and 2018 was higher than in 2015 and 2016, but Lucy Letby was not on the ward in these years In June 2019, Dr Gibbs retired. Dr Gibbs was the Senior Consultant who accused Lucy Letby of murdering infants. In that same year the number of perinatal deaths and stillbirths dramatically declined.
Everyone thinks neonatal nurses are sweet and love babies…but if we are honest it attracts people who may have some issues. In the many years I have worked in hospitals you see issues in two areas, anesthesia and neonatal. These folks need a psych evaluation before they take jobs to prevent future problems.
The couple of anaesthesiologists I know are extremely sane. I cant say the same for these recent jumped up Medical Assistants who want to do the same job with 2 years basic training - they terrify me...and the communication from their president worrying as well..
Issues in geriatric care too, trust me. One nurse I remember from a geriatric ward was a pure sub criminal psychopath. If she'd been a man I'd have taken her outside & punched her.
neonatal nurses and anaesthesia are some of the best nurses I’ve ever met? Honestly I would say neonatal nurses are probably the most committed and highly skilled I have worked with
Those bosses, guilty of gross negligence, left the job behind to work elsewhere in the NHS and are now earning huge salaries, presumably making more terrible decisons and continuing a culture of ignoring the concerns of those beneath them.
WHY are the Administrators and Supervisors not being exposed-the ones who would not act on the Doctors report. THEY are as guilty as Letby for the infants killed after that time, and they should GO TO PRISON also.
There's a scary thought that if Lucy Letby just controlled herself and killed one or two babies each year she might never have been caught and actually end up killing three or four times as many babies in her working life. Scary thought that smarter psychopaths might actually be killing patients or vulnerable people secretly and will never be caught
As horrendous as this is, I cant help thinking about all other situations where evil behaviour is so unthinkable that no one even consides that it might happen (pedophiles among people who are responsible for childrens safety, abusive husbands who are supposed to ensure safety for the family…). I feel like I have almost lost all hope for mankind
Don't lose hope. Hope burns within you and can enlighten the world, with a little encouragement. Start close to home ("charity begins at home"), and gradually spread the light. But for hope to flourish, we will need to remove the corruption from Governments, Hospitals, and other authorities in each our own countries, starting with the upcoming elections.
@@justiceandlifeinlondon2888 we are always responsible for what we do. The world is full of people who have went through h*ll on earth but yet wouldn’t harm a fly. Tragic childhood may be part of an explanation of certain actions, but it won’t be an excuse
@@holmavik6756 I completely agree with you but don't understand why you thought I said anything that childhood experiences may be construed as an excuse for crimes committed.
Has a thorough investigation been done at the Hospital why the management and doctors really let these deaths continue even after they did their internal investigations/coverups. This interview shows that Lucy has been fingered as a fallguy for management, doctors and nurses who are part of a much wider cover up of their failures.
The scripted apologies at the end of this video from the hospital at the centre of the Letby scandal carry no weight or value. Their professional reputation has been irreversibly compromised. Trust in safeguarding the health and welfare of those seeking medical help within their institution has been diminished - they have devalued and discredited the expertise of the medical staff consultants who strive to maintain their oath of 'First do no harm." I for one would boycott that hospital,
Gotta say, I've watched a few of these interviews now. the case is horrific but my God, the reporters are asking very leading questions. Just let the Doctor speak without putting words in his mouth. I loathe tv journalism generally and won't watch it. This just confirms to me why I feel that way.
@@markrogers6601 We have cameras in hallways in the US but not in rooms here either. The NICU where it's only babies is usually monitored though. telemedicine
Please don't turn it around and put it on the doctor to call the police. I can tell how afraid still this clinician is to point the finger to the managers who should have listenned to the group of doctors. Experienced doctors have not only have knowledge through experience but a gift of just knowing - something given by God perhaps to protect patients under their care. Bear in mind the healthcare services management and administrative side can be as psychopathic and ruthless in their ways with the way they treat senior consultants to junior doctors. It amazes me how much power and money they have been given over the years. The power needs to be returned to the clinicians. The services depend on them - they should have the final say as they know what is best for the patient. Whereas managers, all they think about is the buck and to look after number one, themselves over the patient.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I honestly think these managers should face criminal charges for gross negligience. That is how a doctor would be treated if they acted in this manner.
Mind Begs the Question:
Hitler - shifted blame for Nations Failures on Religious Minority
If Politicians/Govts - shift blame for Nations Failures on Vulnerable/Immigrants
Practicing Hitlers Mein Kampf,no?
They are not going to get anything, especially for for gross negligience. My friend's dad work at NHS in London and he is at very high level, i think somewhere below director level.... He is living best of his life! He said no one can touch him, If someone below director level have such attitude imagine at the director level!?
These doctors are like social worker they wait till after the fact to do anything! he talks about the managers
all it takes is one call to the police
👍🏾
@@jackiesmith2710agree
These managers need to be placed on trial.
Yes so why haven't they?
Are you really suggesting that they ignored or even helped the events unfold? Do you know how serious a job like this is? It runs the risk of court sentences for neglect...unlike most jobs. These people did not have the evidence that a baby killer was on the ward.
@DrumsTheWord "I will draw a line under this, you will draw a line under this and if you cross this line, there will be consequences". What does that tell you?
It must be utterly deflating and depressing for the doctors and nurses who were raising concerns, and were completely dismissed until it was much too late.
They were even forced to send written apologies to her. Can't wrap my head around that.
This case in itself shows that
" whistleblowing" is flawed and that so called transparency is murky at its least.
I've had first hand experience, I left my role in healthcare because of it.
The management covers up and then claims no knowledge when s*it hits.
Sad but true.
@@Marina-vd5vm
I've heard of that before, it's sickening to hear.
There are other options you know. Ignore the hospital and go to the cops anyway (or is your career more important than baby murders?). If he got fired, so what? Once it was proven murders were occurring, he would have had his job reinstated anyway. Could have gone to police, even anonymously and likewise could have anonymously contacted child protection services, who pass on something that serious to police and it HAS TO be investigated, once they do that. You can just do all of this online and from a public computer if you don't want to use your own device.
@@bingonamo7520agree
As a nurse, this makes my heart sink too. Not only for the babies and their families, but for my profession.
Did you push the jab
warnings about the tory government scum by jeremy corbyn were not acted on either!!!!
@@davew7833 Don't try to enter politics into the discussion.
@@Krytern Two of the same
@@davew7833 🤡
Senior managers have as much blood on their hands as Lucy for turning a blind eye. They need to be put on trail and immediately sacked with no golden payoffs
They even told consultants to apologise to her after her suspension was finished and she went back on ward again.
True.....This is horrific and also horrific is mothers killing babies in their womb...# prolife please
Exactly. Serial killers turn up regularly. I don't understand the delay.
@@JESUSisLORDBibleStudy-channel and meat eaters, like you
@@topgtopg2658 what did the baby do.. it is going to be her flesh and blood too.
I’m a retired paediatric nurse who has worked on units such as this, and for my life I can’t understand why Lucy Letby did this. Such a wicked, evil thing to do to vulnerable, helpless babies. My heart goes out to the parents who have not only gone through the trauma of a premature birth but who have also had to deal with a death that should not have happened. The staff would also have been traumatised by this. A death on the unit, even through normal circumstances, is tragic and would have had a massive impact on everyone concerned with the baby’s care. I can remember leaving a shift after a baby I had nursed had died - I held myself together for the parents sake but once I got into my car, I burst into tears. I can’t imagine how the nurses and doctors felt during the time they watched these babies dying. And shame on management. I don’t have a high opinion of hospital management anyway, and this story proves why I believe they should be held to account for their lack of action. I hope the parents sue the hospital.
Is it possible for the managers to transfer nurses associated with a number of 'unlucky patients' deaths' to lower-risk wards or clerical work? The managers in this case should be charged with gross negligence!
So, if you were working there and were suspicious of Lucy and were told to not contact police, what would you have done?
@@bingonamo7520yes i would have gone to tge police
@@derekl5517 the hospital managers (not clinicians) eventually moved her to a 'low-risk' role. It turned out that this administrative role gave her access to sensitive records at the time when concerns had been raised about there conduct.
@@pamclarke6785 Really? Even though you'd been specifically ordered not to contact the police? That you'd been told that anybody who persisted in being disruptive, bullying, continuing to make inappropriate, unevidenced allegations would face 'consequences' (which would include being referred to your national regulator for investigation and possible striking off)? And, what do you think the police would have done with your 'call'? I'll tell you. They' d have encouraged - insisted even - that you and the hospital management, the very people who were denying there was a problem, got together and really looked at your allegations and told the police what you'd all concluded - which would be that you had jumped the gun, had only suspicions rather than evidence and that the hospital would continue to 'monitor' the situation and update the cops in the future. And that, my friend would have been the end of your career and livelihood. I worked in UK hospitals for 38 years - 26 as a consultant physician. You clearly didn't.
The fact the concerns of doctor's and nurses were ignored is beyond shocking.
The management had knowledge and ignored it, they should face charges also.
Spot on
Those doctors and nurses could have anonymously contacted police and child protection services and the hospital would have no way of knowing who contacted them.
@@bingonamo7520
You are assuming that these organisations would have acted. I can tell you from personal experience they do not!
@@katcankan7129 Assuming? It's already been proven that Police acted immediately upon finding out. I used to work in CPS and even if reported anonymously, something that serious, as per their policy, gets passed onto their Police contacts straight away (as in Police and detectives that specifically deal with child abuse crimes and murders). Lives would have been saved if only these medical workers had anonymously reported what was going on. Even worse is, all hospitals have a CPS liaison person assigned to their hospital, or even working in their hospital. There's no excuse they never discussed what was happening with this person. That person would have notified Police.
The management were in the right here ironically. This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
After Lucy Letby left they downgraded the unit, so no way of knowing if the deaths stopped because she left or because they stopped looking after babies there that were born so prematurely. This fuels suspicion that Luct Letby has been made a scapegoat for institutional failings.
They also demolished the building.
Did they? 😢
Absolutely !!! These doctors need to be made accountable. She has definitely been made a scapegoat.
I hope he and others healthcare professionals on the ward sue the senior management and NHS top brass for severe negligence, cover-up, and failure to believe professionals using their judgements. How she managed to nurse for two further years after senior doctors raised concerns? It’s madness - the senior management are just as culpable as the baby killer nurse in the deaths of any babies that died after the doctors brought their concerns to management.
@@italianstallion9170 yes I agree, I’m sure they are suing too. As a teacher, if I had consistently reported a colleague and my management had done nothing; and then a major safe guarding issue took place despite my warnings, I would indeed sue management for negligence to believe staff and failure to follow up safeguarding in an appropriate manner.
However that being said, had I been forced to work with a colleague despite my protests and that of others, I would simply refuse to work or get the staff as a collective to demand that the colleague is placed on leave pending investigation.
Ps - most junior doctors aren’t that well paid, even senior doctors aren’t on mega money as the Daily Mail union busters would have you believe.
It is entirely unacceptable from the senior managers at Countess of Chester
You are completely naive about the function of the UK courts. They are rotten from the root up.
@italianstallion9170 I don't think the OP was implying that the doctors deserve some sort of payout, or something more than the families. I think they were trying to say that the doctors are in a stronger position to change the system by taking legal action because they know what the failures were, exactly what happened when they raised their concerns, and they know the rules well enough to know exactly where the management screwed up and what should be changed to prevent this from happening again.
In short, they'd be more likely to succeed and have changes implemented to ensure that the same mistakes aren't made again. "Sue" might have been an unfortunate choice of word, I think they meant for the docs to take legal action, rather than seek a payout.
The parents have been through so much and, if they decide that they have the strength to sue, then more power to them. But they shouldn't be put through more stress and they shouldn't have to fight. Everyone involved should recognise how wrong this was and should want to put an end to it. However, having worked in a hospital, I know that the only people with the power to make management listen are the senior doctors. Everyone else gets ignored.
@@italianstallion9170 you obviously misread what this person said 🙄
The Medical Director should be prosecuted for disgusting negligence and covering up
This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
Where were the other nurses on duty? Was Lucy left alone with a room full of sick infants, I don't think so.
Yes, she actually was. Especially overnight, there was very thin staff cover.
This man has nothing to regret. He is ped consultant and he wrote to his seniors and informed them. There is chain of command and he cannot simply call the police without investigation. He did the best he could at the time. Thank you and good luck Dr
i can't agree
Yes and no. Too many people are simply pencil pushers and we need to always be aware that in the face of potential danger we can always do more. Must do more. For anyone who has worked with incompetent, lazy managers the chain of command means nothing. So unless you're working with people who have stellar integrity, leave nothing to chance. Most people in managerial positions care ONLY about their own jobs and not causing waves. Granted no one wants to believe something horrific can happen but does that make it okay to ignore warnings, red flags? No. In my decades of working I've seen more bad management than good.
NO, he had every right and moral obligation to do more if he had any suspicion.
who was the doctor who was suspected of having a fling with her....married man of 25 years with grown up kids
These babies do not have the chance of hindsight, the colleagues will have to live with their own regrets.
Transparency in healthcare is murky and this management knowingly covered up concerns raised.
They should be held accountable for their negligence at the very least.
They needed to put hidden cameras in baby's rooms .
Of course they should be there all the time standard as a deterrent
But some folks would go all out protesting it against their human rights/ privacy if the hospitals did it?
@@sean9321 they’re the ones with stuff to hide which is why it should be compulsory but it wont be as we know because evil protects its own
Excellent idea
Some people probably would consider it a privacy violation.
Multiple doctors/consultants insisted the only way Lucy letby could be returned to the unit was with cctv monitoring in every room. She had been removed from the unit after the collapses of babies O and P. And never returned to the unit. And I don’t believe cctv was ever installed.
Medical staff should be able to go directly to the police if they have suspicions about a colleague.
They are. It’s a safeguarding issue…
Can you imagine going to the police to report a SK nurse of premature babies*
I wouldn't even have the guts to convince myself of such monstruosity. I know from the B Allitt's case one of the nurses that worked with her committed suicide after BA was found guilty.
They can, they decided letby was murdering babies and decided not to bother. The whole case stinks.
@@barbaracameron8292 there's no point in calling the police, managers were supporting Letby, she was a member of the trust and had good relations with T Chambers
@@Lesley246 who is they ?
Management were guilty and should be put on trial.....their cover up killed many babies and that needs punishment.
You would have been good at finding witches.👍👍👍👍
@@jasonsumner3386 police evidence...dont hide from facts with your nonsense.
@@oldboy9949 yes i know what you mean....if its proved parents will sue them down to their last penny...lets hope so.
Agreed. NHS full of cowardly corrupt rats!
True...This is horrific and also horrific is mothers killing babies in their womb...
And now we know the evidence suggests she’s innocent and was thrown under the bus.
I'm sorry but this man doesn't come across as credible. There's not a unit of healthy babies to start with.
Exactly, If they were so healthy, then why were the in hospital and not at home bonding with the parents?
I'm a person who has always raised the alarm when I sense something is off. Never once was anyone welcoming or open to my input or warnings. They wanted me to shut up. When it comes to business and profit, absolutely no one is ever open to the possibility something is afoot and in need of investigation or change. No one wants to disrupt the status quo or appearance of "everything's okay." This is what happens when you let your greed and fear overtake humanity and plain old common sense. Not this pediatrician but the entire managerial staff whose job it is to protect the staff and all its patients.. Shame on them! Honestly, how difficult would it have have been to call police!? People stood in the way of making sure lives were saved. Selfish and cowardly people who are supposed to strongly lead and, yes, have courage. So much failure went on, it's mind-boggling.
All the 'senior managers' should be investigated and charged. They must be resigned and their photos and names should reported to the public so that it could make them harder to find jobs.
IMO It’s really difficult if you raise concerns about someone especially if they have a mental health background. If you mention concerns to do with the person’s wellbeing and mental state and how this impacts their work the barriers go up with management.IMO there is an ethos now that an employee’s mental health background and personality even,is irrelevant and we need to all be kind and inclusive. The management in this case were imo afraid of being accused of bullying and discrimination and bringing negative press to the hospital. They should have involved the police early on. I think cameras should be put up in baby units now. But everyone should be informed incase mums are breastfeeding whatever
Everyone on those wards are either new mothers, fathers or medical staff....breastfeeding is very very low on the list of worries and screens are available for those who really are that shy. The nurses are all top Drawer.............except for this one deranged psychopath !
I do think the doctors could have ignored the management and gone to cops. I mean this was murder and they were more interested in protecting their careers. They also could have contacted police online (from a public computer if they were that paranoid) and reported it that way, or done that with child protection services, who would have passed it onto police to investigate and legally they have to.
@bingonamo7520 yeah the nurses are not clear here or extremely stupid for not going to the police without management.
IF YOU WANT TO STOP THIS EVER HAPPENING AGAIN: Write to your MP demanding that a proper, STATUTORY PUBLIC ENQUIRY - one where hospital managers CANNOT HIDE behind NDAs and professional privilegeor refuse to give evidence - is ordered. Make these people properly accountable!
And, for Pete's sake: where is the professional licensing scheme for hospital managers - and the regulator, the General Medical Managers Council, which can STRIKE THEM OFF when they fail to perform? The Bristol Heart Scandal Enquiry (1998) demanded this and yet managers have dodged, ducked and dived ever since to avoid ANY regualtion at all.
In the us what would be the equivalent of this?
Would it be writing to govenor or congressman or woman?
@@Wealthandlove-Everyone If this is an issue you feel strongly about, and you're not a UK citizen, you'd need to write to central government, or perhaps the health minister.
The babies died in that failing unit because of the poor care they received
This doctor placed a at risk baby in a side room with the alarms turned off telling nobody and was chastised by Letby for this. He admitted his negligence only after it was shown it was him. The level of medical care in the ward was below an acceptable level - junior doctors were reluctant to seek his assistance with procedures they were unable to perform. They attempted these procedures e.g. iv line insertions up to 3 times the number protoccols permitted hence unacceptable delays in providing fluids and nutrition This is on him. Raw sewerage was leaking into the ward via the false ceiling directly over the babies cots in the ward icu area where the sickest babies were for nearly a year. He did nothing about this. Letby was working on the ward when 6 of the deaths she was charged with occurred the two having been move to another hospital just prior to their deaths. Another 23 babies died in the unit when she was not present. Statistically it seems the babies were safer when she was working. The evidence of air being deliberately injected is non existent and the claim that insulin had been added to TPN bags should have declare inadmissible. An inapropriate test was used which does not provide evidence for this and none of the bags were tested anyway. In truth there is no evidence any babies were murdered, no motive has been established, no method has been established and Letby had no greater opportunity than other staff including the medical staff.
Thank you. People have been completely duped here
Hope decent, reliable scientific evidence can be heard. No doubt Letby will walk free
This is astonishing. In your view, is this true???
...and what's that got to do with it!😢
The whole ''point'' of child abuse is that its hidden. They go to great effort to cover it up. The Drs should have a clean conscience. They TRIED to flag up their fears.
The Management Team should be punished for their incompetence and disbelief.
They need to take a chunk of responsibility for enabling more babies deaths. The ones with the most responsibility should be dismissed. The rest should go through rigorous training. I am a retired Midwife, by the way.
Their conscience may be clear, but they won't be feeling good about it. Children were still murdered.
This is horrific and also horrific is mothers killing babies in their womb...# prolife please
Yep! They left their advocacy for the babies.@@cjmillsnun
We are not God and cannot ''see through walls''. ALL ward areas should be video monitored. @@cjmillsnun
Former domestic assistant here. I thought you either were or had been clinical staff before I read the last sentence.
It's so easy to tell who has & who hasn't worked in the NHS from these comment sections tonight. Those who haven't are so gushy & overwrought. Those of us who have are so grimly aware of how this happened, the cracks in the system this woman hid in & how it will inevitably happen again.
It goes beyond retraining in my opinion. Unless by retraining you mean having to walk around the hospital doing all the really awful clinical disposal & housekeeping work that needs doing. 6 months of carrying those yellow buckets with placentas in up from the Labour unit to the clinical bins would make them think... It would give them a proper understanding of how a hospital functions from the ground up & that's what they need.
(I could never believe how much those buckets weighed by the way, placentas be damn heavy!)
Lucia de Berk (born 22 September 1961), often called Lucia de B., is a Dutch licensed paediatric nurse who was the subject of a miscarriage of justice. In 2003, she was sentenced to life imprisonment, for which no parole is possible under Dutch law,[1] for four murders and three attempted murders of patients under her care. In 2004, after an appeal, she was convicted of seven murders and three attempted murders.Her conviction was controversial in the media and among scientists, and it was questioned by the investigative reporter Peter R. de Vries. In October 2008, the case was reopened by the Dutch Supreme Court, as new facts had been uncovered that undermined the previous verdicts. De Berk was freed, and her case retried; she was exonerated in April 2010
Richard Gill, a statistician showed that the evidence used to convict this nurse was faulty - a statistical error had been commited by an expert witness, a Dr Roy Meadows, who has since been struck off. To quote Richard Gill "There is not a shred of evidence against Lucy"
As a new mother of a 2 month old, this is absolutely horrific and hits harder than it would a few weeks ago. Those parents must be absolutely devastated. Evil.
As a new mother be careful about believing in witch hunts. I thought they had gone our in the 18th century but I was wrong. Ex midwife who has read some of the 'evidence'. It smells to me.
If they were healthy babies why were they in the unit?
Brilliant:)
They were improving and sent there.
This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
I understand that the whole subject is very tragic and sensitive 😞
.
I listen to "Crimescene 2 Court" with Jon narrating !!!
.
I think it,s fair to say that the KC is (brilliant) but neurotic !!!...... and he's made omissions (very quickly indeed) ...... that the jury would overlook 😞
.
I won't say too much here ..... but i know doctors can "give the pass the slip" ...... as doctors have been "VERY KIND" to me 😞
.
But the consultants .......... wow .. i owe my life to them .... they are great and my local hospital ?????.................. I LOVE EM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who poisoned the bags with insulin ?
@@sasha5527 There is no evidence anyone did.
All the senior managers who ignored DOCTORS, should also be held to account and tried for this.. if its a case of a cover up to preserve funding or whatever the motive, they should suffer a similar fate to Letby
I'd like to believe Dr Gibbs but there's lots of contradictions here. The issue with Letby was brought about as an issue of competency, yet here Dr Gibbs emphasises deliberate harm from the outset, that the consultants had concerns about harm being done much earlier on for babies that were apparently doing ok. If that was realised by himself in early 2016, or before, that it was a matter of imminent danger to babies, not incompetence of a nurse, then why not go direct to the police immediately? Do you really say 'Hey, we have a murderer on our ward, but let's just leave it for the time being and see if they kill some more before we go to the police'. That seems hard to believe.
Rather, it looks more like the murderer accusation was pinned retrospectively on what was, by all accounts, a grudge between Letby and the consultants over her competency in 2015-16. In fact she was moved off ward in 2016 over a competency issue. Turning a competency issue into a murder charge is an escalation, given her own escalation against the consultants over a grievance and their competency. And it draws a clear line (management's words) under her position, to get rid of this pesky nurse that was raising complaints about doctors' competency (leaving baby monitors off, not being available in emergency situations) and get rid of this nurse from off the ward permanently.
There was no competency issue - she was moved because of the Consultants unsupported accusations. The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health did a report on the unit in 2016 and in it they praised Lucy Letyby as competent, highly skilled nurse while pointing out the failings of the medical staff and the hospital admin.
Sounds like the department was failing and a scapegoat had to be found.
It truly beggars belief how a rampant spate of deaths, which all had the exact same details (all babies, all at the same hospital, the same nurse was on duty for all of the deaths) wasn’t caught much sooner, as a clear pattern started to emerge.
It was covered up by management. They turned a blind eye because it wouldn't look good on the hospital. They just follow the stats and money.
It was caught, it was reported.
Management silenced the whistleblowers.
Listening/watching the Dr Death podcast & doc really opened my eyes to how willing Western medical establishments are to overlook dangerous murderers on staff, for fear of legal fees and damage to the hospital's reputation. It's shocking and horrifying how much money and PR/reputational concerns overrides the Hippocratic oath to 'do no harm'. That and believing doctors over patients complaints.
I imagine they might have this story for another series of Dr. Death.
There are victims babies A through Q. Alarm bells were raised after baby D. And again I believe two more times, throughout the year. The hospital managers, denied it, made doctors who raised suspicions write apologies to Lucy etc
Why wait for a clear pattern to emerge. All it needed was a camera.
And yet Letbys best friend does not think she murdered them
And she is right.
@@justiceandlifeinlondon2888Could she be innocent?
@@gordanazakula5669 she is innocent. This is even more shamefully unsafe than Sally Clark's conviction
Medical negligence also with many of the babies when you look at the cases. Delays in treatment, short staffing, inept doctors.
Has Dr Gibbs not heard of the Child Death Overview Panel? He had a duty to report his suspicions to them and to the Coroner who found the babies died from natural causes.
Consultants who do a ward round x2 per week on a special care baby unit are negligent. What else were they doing while sho's and junior doctors were dealing with sick babies. Are they covering their arses??
Being someone who has worked for the NHS, I knew that whatever the outcome of the trail this would happen. A discovery that management were not listening to the concerns of staff, or taking any serious action. I have worked for a number of trusts and this seems to be the norm.
I can imagine that managers want the easy life and hope serious problems will just go away if ignored
The doctors used this national distrust trope of management uselessness to help swing public opinion in their favour. This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
I was tortured by security guards at Peterborough City Hospital, last year. Although the incident was recorded on CCTV, the hospital complaints department lied to the police to close ranks. I have also worked in an NHS hospital. The issue isn't our doctors and nurses, who with very rare exceptions are heroes, but non-medical staff, a disgustingly large minority of which, are unemployables. People in positions of responsibility, with learning difficulties and/or mental health issues, that make them incapable of making ethical decisions.
A pile of faff! They are FORCED into care work by UK jobcentre laws! These are normal people with no interest whatsoever in healthcare Sv's. It means they don't have the temperament for the job. They take it or their social security will be cut off by the government. No one in the UK is allowed to even comprehend forcing learning disabled people into work. Your comment is irresponsible and completely ridiculous.
So why didn't they go straight to the police?
This is too sad for words 😢
Its beyond tragic. She needs to be punished, but this should have been reported sooner by management...
Certainly there needs to be a public inquiry everyone needs to know who knew what and when & if there is criminal negligence , this is so serious & the consequences so appalling for the babies & their families every eff
25 - 30 years time when they can't obstruct it any more, but when all responsible are dead or senile there will be a public enquiry.
There should be a judicial inquiry, that would be bear much more weight, and also all the managers should be subpoenaed
Someone start a petition and put those managers behind bars
they are all saying they did do things but emails and doctors say no they didnt
@@paulrichards6894 action speaks louder than words. These people will never see a prison cell because they blames the trust for their own mistakes. "No they will not investigate and suspend a killer nurse because it will them look bad.
Let us know when it’s live
The doctors used this national distrust of management trope to help swing public opinion. This was in fact a vicious bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
Suspend his License to practice medicine. His conduct was unprofessional
This interview actually lends more weight to the argument that Lucy Letby is innocent rather than guilty.
Dr Gibbs admits that he spotted as "association" between her presence and the incidents. An association is useful but means nothing - and it's ripe for all kinds of biases and fallacies, especially if Dr Gibbs is the one bringing in the police with his 'suspicions'. This then influences the whole police investigation (who - let's face it - aren't always the brightest).
Why immediately dismiss Lucy Letby's potential incompetence as a reason and instead assume foul play? What about the potential incompetency of other healthcare workers, including the doctors?
Also, admitting that statements were given to police years afterwards and that details have been forgotten is admitting that evidence is weak. If police had been called in early 2016 then that might have proven there was no evidence of any one person causing the incidents.
People seem to think that doctors and consultants are infallible, perfect beings who always get things right and are not subject to the same errors of perception as the rest of us mortals.
An infection outbreak not identified perhaps? Lots of unusual rashes appearing for different methods of murder? Highly dubious.
All the babies she was accused of harming had either a diagnosis or symptoms of sepsis. The adjoining maternity ward had one of the highest rates of stillbirths in the UK and the stroke unit above the neonates had a very high rate of hospital acquired infections. THe Cheshire hospital rank 5th from the bottom for infection control in the UK.
I am a retired nurse of 6 years, after a 25 year career in surgical and medical nursing. This story again drives home the need to Listen to staff, and act. My heart is broken for the families, and stag involved. Management must be held accountable for failing to act
What warnings could there possibly be when the babies Lucy was supposed to have murdered had post mortems and were found to have died from natural causes?
They didn’t though
Nonsense, Lucy was the fall guy for the evil monsters running this “program”. No wonder she wouldn’t go to the sentencing.
harmony3395. I think you are right. I certainly think she has been stitched up on false evidence. The main stream media play a great in fomenting these false prosecution cases.
As Peter Blexley rightly pointed out they couldve called crimestoppers anonymously if they has suspicions and felt they werent being heard. It would then at the very least have been recorded and investigated by police that way.
The cases of infant deaths at The Countess of Chester Hospital carried on increasing even after Letby had left the unit. They only started to decline once Dr Gibbs resigned and left the hospital. 🤔
Where did you get that information?
@@blueberry7899 ONS (Chester/Chester West). MBRRACE (stabilised and adjusted), MBRRACE (crude). CoCH - Freedom of Information Request.
Neonatal deaths per 1000 live births between 2013 - 2021
The hospital administrators ignored the concerns of doctors. Thing is- the doctors left it in the hands of these administrators far too long. Nothing but concern for their own standing was keeping them from going straight to police immediately. How many “angels of death” serial killer cases has this happened? Every one I’ve seen this was the case. The hospital only acted when they had no other choice. In other cases hospitals that suspected staff only released them from employment allowing them to go to another hospital to kill. Frankly I don’t see how people trust these institutions with their lives to any degree!!!!
Why weren't the doctors considered to be suspects?
What I don't understand is why concerned doctors didn't go directly to the police with their concerns, when it was clear enough that hospital management weren't going to progress this matter? Sure you may be risking your jobs, but babies were dying FFS, so, IMHO, you were ethically bound to take that risk. Besides, there should be external safeguards in place against unfair dismissal for going directly to the police on an issue this serious. It should be well within the rights of an employee who isn't getting sufficient progress on the matter from management. If anything, hospital management should also be put on trial for attempting to pervert the course of justice, or gross negligence, or something!
I absolutely agree. It seems if the doctors knew something was wrong there would be AMA guidance of some kind.
Yes but it’s easier now looking back and I’m sure many of them feel that way now too but during the time they kept being told internal and external investigations are taking place etc (which would normally be the next step), they probably hoped that things are being investigated etc but later became evident that investigations were not taking place. Also the people above the doctors in a way were gaslighting them. Once they were certain the hospital isn’t following protocol and investigating these deaths they did involve the police.
It’s so sad how little control the actual medical experts have and how little they and their opinions are valued
@@Akka992 Well, perhaps, but as soon as a correlation was found between the deaths and Lucy's shifts, I would have gone straight to the police with it. At that point, it is a police issue and not an internal management issue! Give it to the police to sort out. Suspicion of murder is not something for internal investigation!
@@stephenthorpe3591I agree. It’s better to be safe than sorry. Healthcare professionals should have gone with their gut instinct and went above hospital managements head. Not sure how the NHS works but as a nurse in California I know there are regulatory agencies that you can report your suspicions to and also the police should have been contacted.
They only had vague suspicion and a strange pattern of deaths. Also the worry that the whole department would be found culpable some how.
Evil woman those poor parents you think your baby is in the best place when you are already so worried about them and find people like her
Lucy Letby was the scapegoat for incompetence. It will come out eventually.
The hospital should be sued for not acting on the suspicions
Trouble is that doctors would rotate through the unit whereas the nurses would be more established. Generally speaking they trust the nurses more.
Nope. The Consultant Paediatricians and neonatologists who raised the concerns are permanent staff and do not 'rotate'. Junior docs do that.
@@alastairbarkley6572 yes and they ignored the consultant doctors. As a standard it seems to be that nursing staff are better placed as they have more longevity in a place. Even as consultants, the nursing staff hold more sway on certain things in my experience. Which nurses voiced concerns?
The top brass need to be investigated and removed from any hospital period. They’re are equally guilty. It’s not an isolated situation where senior hospital management ignore or bully staff on the shop floor. It’s all about money and saving their their own skins. And incompetence. I hear of such things all the time from my local hospital. Also abuse of hospital funds. Especially donations from patients. Who leave in their wills a sum of money for the department who cared for them. The money taken for other areas and invested in random companies who charge for the management of the money. Infact charges in their £1000s.
I think the nhs needs to reform the managerial role. Managers need to have medical knowledge. They need to have gone to medical or nursing school. They need to have worked on the wards before. They should not be from any other non healthcare backgrounds!!
They do. A person investigating this would have been a senior nurse manager - a lead nurse or a deputy director of nursing
Even when they are it makes no difference
I went into nursing in 1979, at that time Consultants in the hospital were treated like Demi-Gods, I'm not even exaggerating , they were treated with the utmost respect and reverence. I think it is mind boggling, that in this case so many senior consultants voiced concerns about this nurse, and bureaucrats not only ignored their concerns, but actually accused them of bullying the nurse in question, and then forced them to apologise! Things sure have changed in the NHS when such senior consultants are treated worse than the cleaners, and I await charges for Lucy Letby's accomplices, who are all the people who allowed her to carry on murdering babies.
The cumulative infant mortality rate at the Countess of Chester Hospital, for 2015 and 2016 was lower than the national average.
There was an unusual trend in the pattern of stillbirths and perinatal deaths.
The number of perinatal deaths in 2017 and 2018 was higher than in 2015 and 2016, but Lucy Letby was not on the ward in these years
In June 2019, Dr Gibbs retired. Dr Gibbs was the Senior Consultant who accused Lucy Letby of murdering infants. In that same year the number of perinatal deaths and stillbirths dramatically declined.
@@user-rq5sd1sq8o I'm not trying to say anything. Anything I wanted to say I already said.
It was not Dr Gibbs who was with each infant just prior to their collapse, it was Lucy Letby! And Dr Gibbs was not the consultant who first realised that Letby was with each infant just prior.
@@truthseeker444 The hospital already had severe failings in the neonatal department.
The entire case centres around the fact that she was present for the 'suspicious' cases, and that it was 'statistically unlikely' that there could be any other explanation than she killed them all. There have been other very similar cases in which statistical assertions made in court have ultimately been shown to have no merit whatsoever.
There is no hard evidence demonstrating that Letby committed these crimes.
1. Show the rotas for ALL the paediatricians during that time period also.
2. Every piece of evidence was circumstantial.
3. The prosecution expert witness has had previous case thrown out of the appeal court for overreach.
4. An 18 month medical review revealed nothing.
5. There was a six-month period in which nothing suspicious happened at all. By this time, according to the prosecution, Letby had already murdered and attempted to murder several babies. But then she stopped for half a year, despite the fact that the opportunity was still there. This is not consistent with previous incidences of serial killers, whose behaviour typically spirals out of control once they begin killing.
6. Stephen Brearey had over a year to report his suspicions of working with a serial killer to the police, why didn't he? Why did he put his career before babies lives?
@@truthseeker444 Dr Ravi made the 'standing over' a baby claim. Dr Ravi Jayaram, then did absolutely nothing about it. He supposedly felt "extremely uncomfortable" about Letby being left alone with a child, yet the defence noted the following:
He asked the jury to consider if the consultant had really seen "what he says he saw do you think he would have taken his eyes off Ms Letby for one moment from that point on, seriously?"
"We say the most striking feature is how he did nothing, despite what he claimed to the police over a year later," he added.
Mr Myers noted that Dr Jayaram never raised a formal internal complaint, via the Datix reporting system, about the alleged incident.
"If things happened the way he tells us there's absolutely no way he would allow this to happen twice more, in front of him, it's unbelievable," he said.
"He would be watching her like a hawk".
If you work in schools, as part of safeguarding they teach you to always think "it could happen here". Why don't hospitals adopt this?
Malignant narcissism is why.
If I were the parents of these babies who fell victim to Letby's crimes I would be seeking criminal charges against the one who employed her and allowed her to continue carrying out her murders while the mounting factors and evidence was stacking up.
Lucy Letby is innocent, Letby raised concerns about poor and unsafe care. These doctors threw her under the bus
She was convicted of killing baby C - it turns out this was impossible. She was not on the ward from the time of Baby C's admission to the day of its death. The X-ray "proving a air embolism" was taken the day before she returned to the unit.
I recall the vile Beverley Allitt and the atrocities she bestowed upon so many… this is another incredibly sad time for so many of the family, staff and the profession… to be a nurse is to love, care, advocate and nurture… not this…. Not this xx
This case is not over. The more I look into the so called “evidence” the more concerned I am about this being a hideous miscarriage of justice.
Absolutely right. The more I look into this I also see misogyny that is widespread in the other institutions.
She did it. She even wrote she did it! People like you will excuse her due to your own agendas and biases.
Who poisoned the bags with insulin ? Who caused the trauma to that one babies liver? Who caused the trauma to the other babies throat?
@@sasha5527 And people like you probably will blame anyone when you don't know the answer. Her writings were cherry picked and when I read even just that bit I thought it was the ramblings of someone who felt guilty because she couldn't protect the babies. I believed she was a hard working, highly conscientious person who took responsibility when things went wrong around her. I think your biases and intolerance of not knowing forces you to point fingers at the most suitable for scapegoating.
@@justiceandlifeinlondon2888 Didn’t objectively answer any of those questions did you.
@@sasha5527 Here is your question mark: ?. I did answer although I didn't have to. You seem to be blinded by your own bias. If you could tolerate not knowing you wouldn't need scapegoats so quickly. I don't even argue that this woman is innocent. What I am saying is that the so called evidence is laughable and there is a lot of doubt. If those babies were murdered as opposed to hospital negligence, there are plenty of other murder suspects they never looked into. There were plenty of deaths when she wasn't at work which they ignored. The percentage of deaths were correlated to her work hours, no more. So anyone who worked there could have been charged with murder if they picked other babies who died in that ward. Also Lucy Letby raised concerns herself and some people were not happy, so they got together and turned the tables.
I still believe lucy letby has been scapegoated
Who poisoned the bags with insulin ?
@@sasha5527 Nobody- there is no evidence any TPN bags were interfered with and up to 15% of neonates do produce excessive natural insulin within the first few days after birth. Both these babies were discharged home well within a couple of days of the "incidents". The NYT article points out that there was at least one other instance of a baby producing high levels of insulin naturally during the relevant time period but this was not attributed to foul play.
I think the doctor is tallking trash. 0:03 "It was the unusual nature of their collapses. The way they didn't respond as we'd expect to resuscitation. And for some of them, some unusual features, such as strange rashes". I asked Google a simple question "what percentage of premature babies die in an icu", and Google replied: "Between July 1, 2016, to May 31, 2018, 4919 preterm infants were enrolled in the study and 3852 were admitted to neonatal intensive care units. By 28 days of post-natal age, 1109 (29%) of those admitted to the neonatal intensive care unit died". Is this court case against Letby some kind of coverup, and to what agenda?
RIP poor babies. were lessons not learnt from Beverly Allitt? Why did those senior managers not listen to the evidence and why didn't those well educated Doctors not call in the police they must have must have put 2 and 2 together!?
Well Hospitals have protocols in place and police isn’t usually the first step, the hospital failed as they didn’t conduct the investigations properly. The doctors had an inclination but no evidence. The internal and external investigations should have provided that evidence which would then automatically trigger the next step to involve police but the investigations were never done properly. As doctors they can only do so much and they followed the protocols in place, once they saw all of these have failed police was involved. The doctors in this case aren’t to blame, management is.
These managers were guilty of murder through neglect
Imagine the nurses who worked alongside her. I really think all these specialists who are speaking out are brave and good people wanting justice.
All the nurses who worked with LL support her
This was a bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
German here, we had a case of a nurse killing adult critical care patients (many not end of life care cases) and in that case there also were warnings that were not acted on by the hospitals. In fact he could carry on for years and killed dozens (the exact number will probably never be known because the bodies are just too decomposed after a few years to prove it)
I can't get my head around how anyone could kill innocent small babies 😢 Why would she do that?!
Because she's mental, insane.
This is horrific and also horrific is mothers killing babies in their womb...
@@JESUSisLORDBibleStudy-channel please go to the doctor and tell them you have OCD and hypocrisy. Thanks.
@@pigeonloveperhaps you should!! Hypocrisy,,?
She must be punished severely.
No excuses.
No predictable lies about having mental issues.
No kid gloves treatment because she's a woman.
Punish her.
Lucy Letby was framed and is a scapegoat for the failings of the hospital. There were plenty of deaths when she wasn’t at work and apparently statistics improved after they made changes to what kind of patients they admit. She is clearly a hard working, conscientious and disciplined person who is extremely empathetic, so questioned herself among other things when the babies died. interesting that people still blame the hospital while believing she did kill the babies.
Who poisoned the bags with insulin ?
@@sasha5527 Apparently babies do have high insulin levels because of the mother's gestational diabetes and two tests that were done raised this as a possibility. The insulin as evidence was debunked long ago and some other health professional's guilty verdicts overturned. The problem was Lucy Letby's defence team did not do a good job. In UK defence teams often collude with the police, prosecution or the judges. I think the establishment hoped they can avoid blaming the NHS and a compensation case by the parents by scapegoating someone instead of accepting the failings of the ward.
@@justiceandlifeinlondon2888 Thats not possible. Letby herself admitted the bags must have been poisoned.
If she had done it why would she be questioning it? She was wondering if someone else did it. Probably she didn’t know newborn babies could have high insulin from the mother
@@justiceandlifeinlondon2888 🙄 yeah….okay. I guess those babies must have just injected their own bags with insulin, inflicted their own throat and liver injuries, caused their own air embolisms and turned their own alarms off. I guess every doctor there is just misogynistic and I guess Lucy just likes writing false confessions on post it notes.
The nhs failed the parents from the very first crime
That's right blame the NHS not the baby killer 🤡🤡🤡🤡
No wonder you’re just a tadpole.
The senior management sector of the NHS has been part of huge privatisation rollout campaigns - a good chunk of the senior managerial infrastructure is outsourced to private companies. This is a product of privatisation. Hence, why we see nurses in American doing this type of thing all the time.
yes, thanks for reply. i was told about the planned destruction of the NHS over 8 years ago, by a producer at ITV. They wanted me on GMB because i had had a 5 year fight with the NHS to get a wheelchair for my disabled child. It was promised to us, then the cutbacks came into force and they reversed their decision. The reason for my childs disability was hospital negligence to start with, she was a prem baby who they didnt look after properly, so this story has really affected me today, as we've spent what must be years now in hospitals all over UK. i think these things go on far more than public realises, obviously Letby is an extreme case but very interesting how the managers tried to cover it all up.@@EastAsianCinemaHistory
see my above comment you ignoramus. I am half french, half scots hence its the name my dad gave me as a baby..Any more pedantic comments ? @@serinadelmar6012
Right from the outset, the very doctors who were the subject of a previous investigation over neonatal deaths at the hospital were recruited by police and became Lucy Letby's accusers.
How in any objective realm do potential suspects assist the investigators of another suspect?
It's far more sinister....it's a great example of endemic corruption lack if accountability and old boys networks that operate in plain sight in the UK. One wonders what weight Letby's Father had with Snr Managers?
If a single parent would stay 24/7 with babies, could on turns, there may be a crucial witness of what exactly happened. Why no one questioning this aspect?
How do they know what these babies died of if no post mortems were performed??? Just asking.
6 post mortoms were carried out all resulting in a ruling of natural causes.
Coroners decided babies died of natural causes but the defence did not call them as witnesses.
The managers should be punished as well
The maladjustment of this whole process is the fact that there were very serious concerns raised about a member of staff whose levels of concerns were serious enough to be placed within the capacity of high risk, yet she was returned to duty in a department where she was left alone& felt able to carry out her heinous action with an obvious assurance of success. Her shift record would surely show a record of how a unit of neonatal care could be a risk in an emergency. Were alarms in situ and a report of circumstances made when each of these emergen ies arose?
Sadly, I can't see Sir David Davis succeeding in his quest to free Lucy but it is good to see that high profile people and thousand of members of the public are at least trying to get justice for an innocent woman.
I've been saying for over a year now that, once more and more people start looking into how the CPS really built their "case" against Lucy and see how their medical expert Dewi Evans came to work for them*(and what a judge at another trial said about him**), more and more people will realise this is the biggest miscarriage of justice ever!
People don't seem to realise that these babies were only in that hospital because they were gravely ill and as other people have pointed out, there's no evidence to suggest they were murdered, in fact everyone accepted they'd died naturally until the CPS came up with some suggestions for how they might have died with no physical evidence years later and people with a vested interest in blaming others for the hospital's failings conveniently recalled seeing Letby doing something untoward.
Put it this way, these desperately ill babies either died naturally, died through the incompetence of everyone who worked at the hospital or were murdered.
Having followed the trial, seen how Dewi Evans came to work on the case*(and what other judges think of his reliability**) and read Richard Gill's brilliant blog and The New Yorker article, I've concluded that the third option is by far the least likely thing to have happened.
Given that Letby's defence team won't explain why they refused to call crucial witnesses for the defence, i.e medical experts who were waiting to argue why she is innocent, you have to wonder if she was being stitched-up by all sides!
You could also question why their plan of attack was to ridiculously suggest that somebody else murdered the babies rather than to sensibly suggest that they weren't murdered at all, which is the truth!
marykistnen154 wrote "Please explain her own notes about herself saying she was evil for doing what she did."
"I killed them because I'm not good enough to care for them" is a very strange thing for a serial killer to write but is an understandable thing to write when you think your incompetence(which was rife thoughout the hospital) may have led to babies dying and your mind has been turned to mush after being wrongly-accused of multiple murders.
*Evans read about Letby's arrest and got in touch with the police/CPS to "offer his services". It's not hard to work out what he meant when he said he would offer his services to them! **A judge at another trial called his evidence "biased and worthless". Search the following: "Richard Gill Statistics Lucy Letby case" and "Lucy Letby New Yorker."
Well said Ernest .
The New Yorker article isn't terribly convincing. And Richard Gill is a straight up crank.
I would not try to understand a psychopath -but I do want to know why the Hospital Manager tried to sweep this under the carpet.
A crime with no plausible motive. Other than base human wickedness.
There was no motive , there was nothing in the background, there was nothing in the evidence either. The doctors used this national distrust of management trope to help swing public opinion. This was in fact a vicious bullying campaign against a Nurse . His boss Dr Harvey did the right thing initially to try and stop it as there was no evidence. Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary persisted as they couldn't understand somehow that more babies were dying than usual on a filthy sewage infested baby ward with babies transferred from a filthy labour ward which had had 3 floods in 2015 coinciding the death clusters (freedom of information requests reveal). Nor could he understand how underskilled doctors (only one of the 7 had special interest knowledge of Neonatology, inadequate doctors rotas and late tertiary referrals and not enough senior Nurse cover on the shifts may just have impacted the mortality and morbidity numbers. He just couldn't understand this at all. So they concocted this scapegoating campaign to deflect criticism on them and his consultant buddies and went the for the Nurse who was doing most overtime. Read the Royal College of Paediatrics report into all this in 2016 it's online although heavily redacted for the public.
You can see him almost crying. My grandpa was head of a medical department at a huge hospital. He took his responsibility very serious. It would kill him to have this happen.
The cumulative infant mortality rate at the Countess of Chester Hospital, for 2015 and 2016 was lower than the national average.
There was an unusual trend in the pattern of stillbirths and perinatal deaths.
The number of perinatal deaths in 2017 and 2018 was higher than in 2015 and 2016, but Lucy Letby was not on the ward in these years
In June 2019, Dr Gibbs retired. Dr Gibbs was the Senior Consultant who accused Lucy Letby of murdering infants. In that same year the number of perinatal deaths and stillbirths dramatically declined.
This is absolutely damning. Those in charge should face both criminal and civil litigation for all affected families.
So should those who participated and let Lucy brake the rap alone
Everyone thinks neonatal nurses are sweet and love babies…but if we are honest it attracts people who may have some issues. In the many years I have worked in hospitals you see issues in two areas, anesthesia and neonatal. These folks need a psych evaluation before they take jobs to prevent future problems.
The couple of anaesthesiologists I know are extremely sane.
I cant say the same for these recent jumped up Medical Assistants who want to do the same job with 2 years basic training - they terrify me...and the communication from their president worrying as well..
I imagine looking after the elderly and suicidal also attracts psychos.
Very true.
Unfortunately.
Issues in geriatric care too, trust me. One nurse I remember from a geriatric ward was a pure sub criminal psychopath. If she'd been a man I'd have taken her outside & punched her.
neonatal nurses and anaesthesia are some of the best nurses I’ve ever met?
Honestly I would say neonatal nurses are probably the most committed and highly skilled I have worked with
Those bosses, guilty of gross negligence, left the job behind to work elsewhere in the NHS and are now earning huge salaries, presumably making more terrible decisons and continuing a culture of ignoring the concerns of those beneath them.
WHY are the Administrators and Supervisors not being exposed-the ones who would not act on the Doctors report. THEY are as guilty as Letby for the infants killed after that time, and they should GO TO PRISON also.
Lucy was the one who took the rap and it’s not difficult to work out who decided that
Free lucy
There's a scary thought that if Lucy Letby just controlled herself and killed one or two babies each year she might never have been caught and actually end up killing three or four times as many babies in her working life. Scary thought that smarter psychopaths might actually be killing patients or vulnerable people secretly and will never be caught
Scary thought that they all took years to decide Lucy would be the one to take the rap
So Lucy was the weakest link and used as the scapegoat.
Absolutely.
The consultants should have acted after the 1st baby was murdered. You didn't protect the babies and no excuses.
As horrendous as this is, I cant help thinking about all other situations where evil behaviour is so unthinkable that no one even consides that it might happen (pedophiles among people who are responsible for childrens safety, abusive husbands who are supposed to ensure safety for the family…). I feel like I have almost lost all hope for mankind
Don't lose hope. Hope burns within you and can enlighten the world, with a little encouragement. Start close to home ("charity begins at home"), and gradually spread the light. But for hope to flourish, we will need to remove the corruption from Governments, Hospitals, and other authorities in each our own countries, starting with the upcoming elections.
How would you feel when its on the news that Lucy Letby was a victimi of miscarriage of justice?
@@justiceandlifeinlondon2888 we are always responsible for what we do. The world is full of people who have went through h*ll on earth but yet wouldn’t harm a fly. Tragic childhood may be part of an explanation of certain actions, but it won’t be an excuse
@@holmavik6756 I completely agree with you but don't understand why you thought I said anything that childhood experiences may be construed as an excuse for crimes committed.
@@justiceandlifeinlondon2888 sorry, English is not my first language
Has a thorough investigation been done at the Hospital why the management and doctors really let these deaths continue even after they did their internal investigations/coverups. This interview shows that Lucy has been fingered as a fallguy for management, doctors and nurses who are part of a much wider cover up of their failures.
The scripted apologies at the end of this video from the hospital at the centre of the Letby scandal carry no weight or value. Their professional reputation has been irreversibly compromised. Trust in safeguarding the health and welfare of those seeking medical help within their institution has been diminished - they have devalued and discredited the expertise of the medical staff consultants who strive to maintain their oath of 'First do no harm."
I for one would boycott that hospital,
Senior managers are not accountable until problems can no longer ignored
Sack all the top panthers there
Gotta say, I've watched a few of these interviews now. the case is horrific but my God, the reporters are asking very leading questions. Just let the Doctor speak without putting words in his mouth. I loathe tv journalism generally and won't watch it. This just confirms to me why I feel that way.
I get a very strong feeling looking at his face as he talks that he knows they acted too slowly to be considered heroes.
This is why we should have medics in charge of NHS not these stupid financial/legal people.
Don't they have CCTV in these babies units at the hospital?
Considered an invasion of privacy. But I imagine, with this and another couple of cases from a decade or so ago, that will probably change.
@@markrogers6601 We have cameras in hallways in the US but not in rooms here either. The NICU where it's only babies is usually monitored though. telemedicine
@@markrogers6601
That is so silly , babies don't need privacy . They would be alive today .
@@markrogers6601i do hope so when i had my daughter i told my mum to follow the nurse who was washing her best not to trust anyone
Sadly, no. Do they have it in your baby units? I have never heard of CCTV in wards.
Please don't turn it around and put it on the doctor to call the police. I can tell how afraid still this clinician is to point the finger to the managers who should have listenned to the group of doctors. Experienced doctors have not only have knowledge through experience but a gift of just knowing - something given by God perhaps to protect patients under their care. Bear in mind the healthcare services management and administrative side can be as psychopathic and ruthless in their ways with the way they treat senior consultants to junior doctors. It amazes me how much power and money they have been given over the years. The power needs to be returned to the clinicians. The services depend on them - they should have the final say as they know what is best for the patient. Whereas managers, all they think about is the buck and to look after number one, themselves over the patient.