Everyone on the internet is wrong about insert tooling in the home machine shop...
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- The important point is that inserts for aluminium (polished sharp edge, high rake angle) reduce tool pressure which reduces the forces on the machine allowing a small machine to do more than it could before, and they will cut tool steel just fine.
The inserts I'm using are from DASAN official alliexpres store (no affiliation, not sponsored, just who I use) www.aliexpress...
$12.50 AUD (~$8USD) for 10
For my friend's mini lathe he got a set of tiny, 8mm shaft, insert tool holders (with Al inserts) from here (no affiliation, not sponsored) www.aliexpress...
I own a small soviet lathe - the quite renowned "Universal-3". It's ridicolously small, 75 mm centre height and barely 200 mm between centers. What you said about carbide tooling is so true. My lathe would push inserts for steel as well, but you'd feel the pressure on the handwheels - no bueno for the life of the leadscrews. I switched to aluminum inserts and, suddenly, it was like cutting butter. So, once again - everyone on the internet is wrong about carbide! Especially if everyone on the internet took the time to remove the compound slides, which are the culprit of tool instability 8 times out of 10...
Thats an awesome tip! I have dwelled through the deepest ends of home shop machining youtube videos, and I don’t recall ever hearing anyone suggesting to use carbide inserts for Al. Makes a whole lot of sense in the application intended, to the point of appearing obvious now that I heard it 😅. Thanks a lot!
Yeah, it's odd, I've not seen anyone else talking about it either, but it's all I use
I like people who try and test, and make their own rules, cheers mate and thanks
Fair point, cheap carbide surpasses HSS on cost these days.
My Grizzly G0752 has done everything I have asked it to. Just made a Short with a carbide insert parting tool, like yours, a few days ago. 3/4" steel round, no coolant or oil of any kind. Ez peezy lemon squeezy. It is all about the operator and not so much the machine with these overseas units.
Make chips that dont need dips!
Get away from insert get a carbide tipped "t "blade grind clearance and angle to suit last far longer and as mentioned cheaper and take interrupted cuts better
What have you done to the poor Hercus ?! In any case, the Hercus is much more rigid than your average import bench lathe. Interrupted cuts, while not ideal is not the main issue rather the tool chatter and flex you get with the small lathes.
Oh I'm with you on the 'poor hercus' bit, it's a bit of a story. Super short version: dead electronics and I really needed a lathe so I added handwheels in a reversible/non permanent way, with plans to re-CNC it later. Long version:
The guy I bought it off shipped it to me strapped to a pallet with straps over the plastic covers.... so it arrived with all the plastic covers completely destroyed - I have bits of them taped together to direct chips to fly in fewer directions but that's about it.
It had dead electronics (which is why I got it cheap) and I intended to either fix them or replace them (I have a background in custom CNC machines) however I got stuck trying to find a driver for the spindle, it's a 180V DC motor with an encoder on the spindle shaft, I've not been able to find anyone that makes a brushed DC servo drive capable of that voltage.
If you know of any send me a link :)
The X and Z motors are also brushed DC servos....but extremely weird ones, they each have two entirely separate windings sharing the same shaft, sorta like a high speed and low speed winding (if there's a name for that sort of motor let me know, I've not seen any modern examples). In the end I figured I could just ignore the high speed windings and I found brushed DC servo drives that will run the low speed windings.
Adding to the complexity in retrofitting is the space constraints for both the spindle motor and the X/Z motors, ie normal NEMA style steppers or servos with a square shape wont fit.
So the little lathe sat there neglected for a while until I really needed a lathe to fix something. The quickest way to get it up and running was to knock up my own power supply for the spindle (original transformer + rectifier and capacitors, ultra simple) and to put hand wheels on the ball screws and make it a manual machine temporarily (that was a few years ago now.... as all "temporary" things tend to be).
The way I did it is completely reversible and was done in a way that minimises modification to the machine: the ends of the ball screws were drilled and a piece of shafting was loctited in the end, which pokes through a small hole drilled in the covers, and then a little bushing plate was attached so that the ball screw isn't taking handwheel forces.
The existing motors and belts etc are still in it, I actually use the encoder outputs of the motors for my DRO.
When I re-CNC it there'll just be a few small holes in the covers that I can plug and it will be as it was.
I have plans to buy a proper toolroom manual lathe later this year then the poor little hercus (little beast of a machine though) will be restored, until now it's my only lathe.
Wow, thanks! that's a great tip for my usecase, they should be much better for turning wood or epoxies. HSS for whatever reason dulls really quick and try finding inserts that are meant for that - there are probably none easily available.
Oh yeah, they're great for wood etc due to the sharpness, an no one makes inserts for wood specifically (afaik)
Well, that is a well build machine, do the same on a chinesium crap lathe, where everything warps in all directions and the insert gets beaten to death in no time.
I came here to say just that
It is correct that with the right insert you can get away with it,but
a converted CNC lathe is hardly a ''small'' lathe whatever size it is .
Try it at 3000 RPM and savour the aroma of that Chinese toast cooking.
I have one of these lathes (still CNC) and believe me, they are small and not particularly rigid. A South Bend 9" would run rings around it for size and rigidity.
Oh I agree that the little hercus is a tiny tank, but the advice still applies: highly polished high-rake-angle inserts meant for aluminium reduce tool pressure and thus reduce the forces on the machine allowing a little machine to do more than it otherwise could. Additionally, they hold up far better than you'd expect (eg the silly interrupted cut in the vid), lots of people assume they'd struggle with steel but I hard-turn with them.... tungsten carbide is magic.
I have a friend with one of the tiny chinese mini lathes and we've tested it there too, it can't do what my hercus can (still can't hard turn 65HRC shaft for example) but it can do a lot more than it could before, and does it faster and with better surface finish than with high speed steel tools.
The other thing is the common wisdom of 'home shop machines can't run the feeds and speeds you need for insert tooling'... which is true if you buy inserts meant for high-production steel (ie blunt edged etc for maximum insert life in that material) as they have a minimum depth of cut that is way to heavy for a small lathe... but inserts for aluminium can take whisper cuts off steel at a huge range of RPM etc.
The only thing you wont get is good chip control (outside of getting extremely small nose radius inserts and related tricks), the inserts shown in this vid will birds-nest some steels and aluminium, though I have a set of tools with tiny nose radii that can chip break in the small cuts I'm taking.
I haven't used any HSS tool in my hobby lathe thus far :)
Man, I just stocked up on regular cabides :-)
How about wear, does the aluminum carbides wear out quicker?
I need to test it I guess.
Yeah thats basicaly it. That will drasticaly shorten the life span of the inserts. On the other hand, if it works it still better then nothing or buying an whole new mashine just for some parts. And u need to work slowly, don´t take too much off in one pass, since the edges cant withstand as much force as inserts which are recommanded.
@@ATypiclaNPC I agree, you get a great finish with aluminum inserts on smaller lathes. I tend to use the steel inserts for roughing if I have a lot of material to hog off. I want to see more of this "Manual" CNC lathe :)
@@ATypiclaNPC Thanks, I will give it a try.
Honestly they last far longer than they should given the punishment I put them through. A box of ten lasts me 6 months to a year doing all sorts of silly stuff (eg hard turning bearing shaft...with Al inserts...).
The other huge benefit that I didn't mention in the video is the ability to take tiny whisper cuts in steel, eg you're creeping up on a dimension or fit and need to take 25 micron (~1thou) off, steel inserts have a minimum cut depth and you'd just be burnishing at that point, aluminium inserts will take that tiny cut.
@@makebreakrepair Thanks, I have ordered some different aluminium inserts to test, it sounds great.
That is all I use on my PM1030 and If I have the tooling and they fit the job I try to use on my PM 833VT they just last longer and cut better then HSS tooling
My 1951 vintage Wards (Logan) didn't do well with brazed carbide tooling in a lantern toolpost . Insert tooling in a QCTP is another thing , I'm running higher cutting speeds with faster feeds and getting better finishes . With some materials , mostly stainless . Mild steel is better , but still not great .
Brazed carbide tooling is just crap, isn't it? There's no geometry beyond a tilted flat surface and some relief angles, whereas inserts are able to have tiny sharp features etc that make a huge difference, that and the inserts for aluminium have a crazy sharp tip; it won't last as long (in terms total cut hours) as it would in its intended application but an insert still lasts me ages of home-shop use, and at a a dollar each it doesn't matter anyway - a box of ten lasts me 6 months to a year at $10 a box.
It all has to do with rigidity not size, if your micro-lath is rigid it will do fine with inserted tooling.
Oh I agree that the little hercus is a tiny tank, but the advice still applies: highly polished high-rake-angle inserts meant for aluminium reduce tool pressure and thus reduce the forces on the machine allowing a little machine to do more than it otherwise could. Additionally, they hold up far better than you'd expect (eg the silly interrupted cut in the vid), lots of people assume they'd struggle with steel but I hard-turn with them.... tungsten carbide is magic.
I have a friend with one of the tiny chinese mini lathes and we've tested it there too, it can't do what my hercus can (still can't hard turn 65HRC shaft for example) but it can do a lot more than it could before, and does it faster and with better surface finish than with high speed steel tools.
The other thing is the common wisdom of 'home shop machines can't run the feeds and speeds you need for insert tooling'... which is true if you buy inserts meant for high-production steel (ie blunt edged etc for maximum insert life in that material) as they have a minimum depth of cut that is way to heavy for a small lathe... but inserts for aluminium can take whisper cuts off steel at a huge range of RPM etc.
The only thing you wont get is good chip control (outside of getting extremely small nose radius inserts and related tricks), the inserts shown in this vid will birds-nest some steels and aluminium, though I have a set of tools with tiny nose radii that can chip break in the small cuts I'm taking.
Maybe not everyone, but a lot of HSS addictives. Just to show off their skill in tool grinding. High quality HSS blanks has become insanely costly. Even low cost and low quality Chinese HSS is high priced. Low price Chinese inserts does a decent job in a home shop. Not the wear out time needed for mass production. But frankly speaking, what kills them is when you make mistakes and break off the tip. So for economic and time reasons I mostly use cheap Chinese insert tooling on the lathe.
Using inserts for aluminium in the home shop is a great advice. Price difference is so small. Will use more of them in the future.
Look for vintage tatung Japanese high speed tooling..the cobalt content gives it wear capabilities but impact resistance of high speed
Yeah, I have inserts for steel and such too, but I almost always use the aluminium ones on everything. If CBN ones weren't so expensive (even from china they're like $10 each and a mistake will instant break them) I'd use them more, but the aluminium ones can hard turn bearing shaft (though my little hercus is a tiny tank, a chinese mini lathe wouldn't be able to hard turn with these inserts I think).
The inserts I buy (no affiliation, not sponsored, just who I use) are these www.aliexpress.com/item/32917989481.html
i use them since years ! nothing else.
Do the aluminium carbide inserts last a reasonable amount of time when used for steel?
yes, they last
as long as you get ones with a reasonable nose radius. Tiny nose radius will chip much more quickly.
@@mikeandhismachines I was wondering more about the sharp edges. I use them for aluminium but never for steel.
For home shop use: yes. A ten pack of those inserts costs me $12AUD (~$8USD) and lasts me 6 months to a year, and I hard turn bearing shaft with them, as well as aluminium, brass, normal steel, etc.
The inserts I'm using are from DASAN official alliexpres store (no affiliation, not sponsored, just who I use) www.aliexpress.com/item/32917989481.html
If you were running production on a proper CNC lathe you'd definitely be better off following insert manufacturers advice of course
@@makebreakrepair I actually have a pack but I only use them for aluminium. I was under the impression that they couldn’t be used on steel which in hindsight makes less sense. They are about the same cost as a normal pack of inserts so maybe I’ll make the complete switch. Can’t really see any negatives with using them on still apart from maybe the weaker edge?
Nice job.
Certainly a good test and application. 👍👍
Have a great day.
Thanks, I really appreciate it.
I do a lot of 'I wonder if that would work...?' experimenting, and sometimes just 'this is what I have so I'll make it work', and from that I occasionally stumble on something useful for people.
Awesome proof! Thanks for making this video, and I'm going to like watching your other videos.
...but mostly SUBSCRIBE !
Very interesting. Nice work
I use TNMG 160404 in my hafco and dont have any probs as well
Im using the exact same inserts from ISCAR
Everyone thinks cnmg is the way to go lol
@@Sweetchilliheat18 Yes, but TNMG gives me 6 cutting edges with 1 toolholder and I can turn and face
I have a few different types of holders but the one shown in the vid (link to the inserts, not sponsored/no affiliation, just who I use www.aliexpress.com/item/32917989481.html) were part of a cheap set I got that uses CCGT for everything. I also have a mix of VNMG and other types.
Yeah! I WISH my Wen (sieg c2) had a bed that wide. Wear a tear take full advantage of the lever effect on these small machines. I.E. they can't shrug off minor inputs of twisting forces like the big boys can.
Yeah, the little hercus is a tiny tank (3000rpm, free machining aluminium, 3mm radial depth of cut, feed as fast as you can spin the handwheel = chips hitting the ceiling), though the advice still applies: inserts for al reduce tool pressure and the forces on the machine which allows small machines to do things they couldn't before. Have tested it on a friend's chinese mini lathe and it can't do what the hercus can (eg it still can't hard-turn bearing shaft) but it cuts faster, deeper, and with better finish than with HSS.
Says the guy with the black thumb nail and rubbing his fingers on sharp edges after machining 🤔
Very interesting, (PS you need a new manicure 😄)
😅 this channel kinda blew up a bit, I was shooting videos for friends and suddenly I have an audience.
No nail polish survives the abuse I put my hands through (even dip powder, and it's such a hassle), trying UV gel next
My latest vid should be a little more to your liking (my nails aren't perfect... I did them myself after all, but they're not yet chipped for once :P ruclips.net/video/DqjAKmm-FJQ/видео.html
Why are your nails painted black?
Probably smashed his thumb on something. It does look like it was painted on.
Because I like them painted :)
Nail polish doesn't last long with the abuse I put my hands through though so it's always chipped 😅
do not ever think doing it in those entry level Chinese mini lathe and got a same result. unless you've done something 'unusual' to it.
Wanna bet?
@@lukeamato423 I'm not going to lose my money to a machinist who had ultra-high precision skill.. ahaha. btw it has tendency to bite more eagerly. and suddenly the tool is off by the backlash and "play" of the system. and ended cutting deeper. but yes, you can do it. and some advice... put the tool in tangential position, so it makes mechanical limit to the depth of cut. lock everything that can locked to minimize unnecessary move. lower the power, torque and speed so those tiny sharp tool wont chipped off. be patience and have a good luck..
@@sodium.carbide lol
Doing "something unusual" to Chinese 7x14 mini lathes is what they're there for.
You're going to have to strip, fettle, and improve the machine to make it usable, even on brass or aluminium.
You might as well add a mid-bed shear plate and carriage lock, change out the spindle bearings for tapererd or angular contact bearings, remove the compound, and replace that with a solid toolpost plinth and maybe stiffen the bed with epoxy granite, whilst you're in there 😉
Oh I agree that the little hercus is a tiny tank, but the advice still applies: highly polished high-rake-angle inserts meant for aluminium reduce tool pressure and thus reduce the forces on the machine allowing a little machine to do more than it otherwise could. Additionally, they hold up far better than you'd expect (eg the silly interrupted cut in the vid), lots of people assume they'd struggle with steel but I hard-turn with them.... tungsten carbide is magic.
I have a friend with one of the tiny chinese mini lathes and we've tested it there too, it can't do what my hercus can (still can't hard turn 65HRC shaft for example) but it can do a lot more than it could before, and does it faster and with better surface finish than with high speed steel tools.
The other thing is the common wisdom of 'home shop machines can't run the feeds and speeds you need for insert tooling'... which is true if you buy inserts meant for high-production steel (ie blunt edged etc for maximum insert life in that material) as they have a minimum depth of cut that is way to heavy for a small lathe... but inserts for aluminium can take whisper cuts off steel at a huge range of RPM etc.
The only thing you wont get is good chip control (outside of getting extremely small nose radius inserts and related tricks), the inserts shown in this vid will birds-nest some steels and aluminium, though I have a set of tools with tiny nose radii that can chip break in the small cuts I'm taking.
yup