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Are these Guys Trying to BULLY ME off of my Hand?
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- Опубликовано: 25 окт 2022
- Today, Bart takes a call from Sarah where she gets incredible pot odds on the river holding top set. But, how can she ever be good here and is it ever correct to fold a strong hand getting such incredible pot odds?
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Caller: I made it $45. Bart: Idk I probably would’ve made it like $45
Mansplaining. Lol
I think he’s just so used to seeing people raise too small that it’s his natural reaction.
Tbh when I heard her say there were 3 limpers and she raised to $45 my first thought was wow that’s small. Then I took a second to think about it and came to the same realization Bart had.
If someone was calling with 5 7 spades, then the raise was too small at that table.
Yeah that’s what I was thinking I was so lost lolol
It does seem like the comically quick calls are always a big draw. Probably one of the best tells I've learned.
I noticed I was doing this as well a few months ago and now I consciously count to 5 every time before I call a bet with a draw
@@bobbywhite1645 Yep, or when I have top pair with a weak kicker. Basically calling that fast was capping my range. Been trying to get better at it.
@@bobbywhite1645 especially at small stakes most ppl act way too quickly without thinking. It’s nerve wracking to have the action on you because the entire table’s focus is on you, but it’s important not to fall into that trap for a few reasons.
1) The obvious one is you’ll make more errors. Mostly sizing errors but also bet/call/check/fold errors.
2) You’ll eventually come across truly difficult spots on the turn and river that require thinking. By acting quickly in the easier spots you’re essentially admitting that you’re in a tough spot whenever you take your time.
3) You’re also signaling to the good players at your table that you’re a fish who doesn’t track stack or pot sizes.
There’s a reason poker players on TV take their time. Don’t feel pressured to play super fast just because the other players do. Preflop sure, act quickly. Flop too if it’s a standard spot. But after that take your time.
There no possible way I'm letting anyone see the river for $200. I'm jamming the turn in a multi way pot.
The mistake was pre if there are people calling 45 with 5 7 spades pre. Make it 80-100 at this crazy table.
Really enjoyed that analysis especially the thought about the ability to three bet. Finally, the caller was excellent and gave a really clear description and thought process more of her please.
turn is an open shove 100% against said villains. actual effective stack against button prior to the turn bet is $630 which is
Well played. Optimistic to hope that both players have worse. Every street looks good
I wouldn't have this discipline. I'd call knowing I'm just losing $375 more.
That's the idea behind calling only when you have big pot odds. You don't have to think that both have worse. You can think that 80% of the time at least one of them has something better, and still call, because on the remaining 20% you get a huge win.
Except the error was pre not making it much bigger at this crazy table.
I don't hate a turn jam with what sounds like an SPR of 1.
Edit: nice river fold. When the guy behind you is beating you in the pot, it's pretty clear what he has ( i.e. a combo draw that he's never folding).
Important point about stack sizes. She essentially put herself in the worst situation by allowing SB to raise almost a full raise. Gotta be really careful there. She clearly wasn’t getting paid if the draw bricked
Great caller. I love to see girls playing who can really think through a hand. This young lady was no Robbi, that's for sure.
When multiway on the turn with the nuts on a wet board, you just focus on getting money in. Overbet jamming is not a bad play, you will get action from nut/straight flush draws a lot. Bart’s tip about betting 1/2 the short stack is very refined if you think your opponents deserve that level of respect. A lot of these players have never check raised in their lives so I’m not changing my bet sizes counting on them to do so.
Wow! Great fold on the worst card!!
I will definitely take away the point of sizing 1/2 of the short stack. Thanks Bart and Hero!
Me too. These little "gems" accumulate...I wind up thinking, again, that I'm better than I am.
And, like the golf gods, the poker gods (or better players) show me that I remain a neophyte. GL at the tables mate.
Having played in a lot of games like this, that dude was never folding even if she had bet less on the turn and could jam over small blind
But in the long run that’s +EV. QQ wins 2/3 of the time on that board vs TT and the OESFD.
Great hand breakdown 👍👍
Love these Bart!
Great call
Hero played it well, tough beat
This is my casino. I was just there the other day
In this hand they talked about Betty and half the size of the short stack so you can three bed it. Something tells me the main villain of this hand isn't folding no matter what you do.
It's an easy fold but when you don't want to make.
The winner of this hand called $45 with everyone behind him pre flop, when he gave all of that money back I hope Sarah got at least her share.
I like listening to ppl like her.
A real want to learn humble attitude.
Nice fold, I think
Great caller
should you fold fold top set?
So similar to what happened to me yesterday -- 3-bet KK and get two callers.
flop top set multiway on a 2 club board. C-bet 40% because there's one bad player and one good, both call again.
Turn brings in a straight draw and i go all-in for about 110% pot because I know someone or both are overplaying something. fun player folds and good player calls after 20 seconds...with Q-high flush draw and a gutshot.
of course hits the flush on the river. i told him later that i wouldn't have made that call and that it was "ambitious", of course he defended it even when I said he had shy of 30% equity but more importantly that i was betting into two people on multiple streets. his defense was "implied odds" lol
Frustrating, but don't educate him. He's already supposedly good. No need to make him better, or inform him how you think and reason if he's a player you play against often.
On the turn, I like an open bet that puts SB allin ($350) instead of betting half SB's stack, thinking SB could raise. It is most likely, they are both on flush draws and I would be worried SB is just calling an overwhelming majority of the time if I bet half SB stack. BTN is a station, good fold by caller.
Hey I got it right, was thinking one of them had 5-7 spades...Cause how fast he called the flop and turn. Tough decision, but great fold 👍
Yeah sure you did
That's why you HAVE to raise more pre against these loose pre flop players. 80-100 gets rid of 5-7 spades, keeps in 10 10 for a huge pot win instead of loss. These small stakes players can be goofy pre.
@@jamesbell1613 You're absolutely right, but you should see the home games I play in. Guys are calling 3 bets with 2-3 off, 10-4 off....and winning. It's really tilting 😂
@@paredg2 Sure but I just shrug if someone wants to call 100 pre. If it's really a crazy table I'll go even higher than 100 there. 😂 Yeah, it can be freaking nuts sometimes.
Should you fold fold? As opposed to what, fold call?
Yes yes
Regarding the issue of the overall size of the bet on the turn, I've experienced this same thing too. And I'm still uncomfortable giving opponents good odds to continue ... eventhough I almost always get folds on my value bets when I charge opponents the a slightly larger price to continue.
I want to get value, but I don't want to give good odds (even when I'm the only one in the hand thinking about percentages.)
Any thoughts?
That's always a problem for me. And then you do let them in, and BAM!
In this case vs straight flush draw it wouldn't matter what price he gets he can call. The button should have raised got it in with that combo anyway. In spots where they have the naked flush draw a bigger bet is also fine vs players that will never fold anyway. So unless you intend to overbet and shut them out completely, then just pick a size where you deny them proper drawing odds. Regards
@@evrenturan5632 I agree. And setting this hand aside, the issue I'm facing is that usually when I deny opponents proper drawing odds even slightly, I get folds if the size of the bet is over $150. (I play $1/$3)
Whether they fold or call is out of your control, what you can control is the pot size and odds you give them. Remember they have 20% equity with one card to come with a flush draw. When they fold you realize 100% of your equity. When they call, you denied them the proper odds.
@@evrenturan5632 that's a great reminder, and I realize that I probably over-charge exorbitantly on turns. (Not because I am afraid of getting sucked out on ... but simply over-estimating my opponent's equity when I bet for value.)
One time I had a jackpot on the river and I told the guy "I have a jackpot hand... do not make me fold this hand, if your kicker doesn't play." He stared at me like a cow in a field and jammed over my bet. And I folded $8000 to a $30 raise . For this reason I would pay off this man; you're assuming he *knows* that he's bluffing into an empty side-pot and still has to beat the small blind. I've seen men do this and turn over like... king jack. Or queen-ten. Or pocket deuces. Honestly it barely matters. If you always make this fold, one day you will get shown such a hand and have to go throw up, but until that day, you will be patting yourself on the back about not paying off obvious rivered flushes. If you always make this call, most of the time you will be kicking yourself until one day the guy turns over some bullshit. I've seen some weird shit at the table, just last session a guy called a bluff, the bluffer turned over ten high, everyone asked him to expose his hand, and he just froze like he was mentally ill for a minute and a half, tried to pile in more money when the hand was over, and the dealer gave up telling him to turn over the winner and just mucked his hand and pushed the pot to ten high.
There are players online where I can see their stats and I know this is a rivered flush *every* time but in a low stakes live player pool, I think it is correct to pay, given this price. You'll never be in this spot again and you'll never know if he has it 8/8 times or 6/8 times.
Sarah played it well. Just the worst river and a very disciplined but correct fold regardless of any outcome.
She sounds lovely and it was pretty clear Bart liked her too! It great to have decent women with a bit of class at the table who can play, as opposed to foul mouthed Marle's and Robbi's of this world.
Nice river fold, but at this crazy inelastic table pre, make the 5 7 spades call 80-100 pre.
I’m curious of what fold fold is.
I had a set of A's and I was on the button. Middle position had a set of J's and the crazy guy in late position, who has been that way all night, goes all in. Both sets call and we both loses as the crazy guy gets a flush. So, yes from time to time you need to fold a set, even top set. Don't forget the crazy 3rd guy. He might just make a hand.
Brutal river.
Nice fold. I'd be so reluctant to muck those cards getting almost 5 to 1... but at the same time, what hand is he overvaluing when the flush and straight draws get there?
Could be bluffing too but yeah unfortunate
It is hard to bluff because he has to beat the person all in.
Good fold and well played. The flushing getting there won't usually happen.
If I see someone fold top set on the river with these pot odds I would bluff with any two cards on the river every time lol
Fold fold?
I’ve always been confused as how or when I can three bet in the middle of a hand if someone moves all in on my raise. Bart touched on it but I’m still confused. Sometimes I can three bet and sometimes I can only call the jam
It has to be a full raise size from the guy going all-in to open up the betting again. Otherwise it is more or less seen as a "call plus some change".
For a raise to be a full raise it needs to be at least twice the previous bet or raise. For example if someone bets 200 and gets a call, then the 3rd player raises to 340 thats only 140 dollars more, needs to be 200 more at least to reopen betting for the initial raiser.
Just use the brain a little
Just in my experience a snap call is almost always a big draw in these stakes. Good luck✌️
Spoiler: weird that BTN called that largish pre bet
That's what I was thinking too. However, there was a straddle on the button, so he wasn't calling completely cold, and they were fairly deep.
Which means 45 at this table in this situation was way too small pre. I've seen this too often at these low stakes.
Used to play at Hollywood all the time
On the flop don't you want to punish flush draws esp in multiway pot?
Not really. You're wanting at least some calls. You don't want to make them all fold. You're also blocking top pair and you've got the redraws to a house and Qs as backup if a spade comes on the turn. I dunno. If you don't have AQ+ here I think you're just checking anyway, so when you bet it's pretty strong. Maybe total fish will call any bet with a draw anyway but it seems dependant on the player pool you're against tbh. If they're massive fish I guess you can just throw all theory out the window and bet anything.
@@matthewwestcott9138 but then the river came lol
@@clapforboobies5892 There's always the river 🙂. But yeah, in some of the ridiculously soft home games back in the day I'd bet 60%+ every street on boards like this and get paid. Just depends on he player pool.
Well 5-7 played it right. He had crazy outs.
Shout out to the rest of the 2% of women that listen to Bart 😊
Great fold.
Brutal river card. Brought in the world.
I’m not folding top set for that price.
That is a hard fold.
Depends on the villains, but yeah it sure doesn't look like she's getting the correct odds to call. I've seen some insane dry side pot bets though...
That's what she said.
So this wasn't brought up, but on river shouldn't Hero decide if they are going to call ALL-in and then either c/f , or go all in themself if they are going to call. I just don't see how c/c can ever be better than jam there?
Absolute value vs pot size percentage
Call me a donkey: im snap calling, getting those pot odds and just yelling at the dealer for chips
I just jam the turn. My target is $1/3 players who can't fold the nut flush draw. But additionally, anybody who added outs to a flush draw (JsTs, KsJs, AsTs, etc) is *never* folding.
Get all the money in now and expect to get called. Obviously there's a spoiler because we know she ends up with a terrible decision, but still, we should be all-in on the turn.
If she had bet 50 on the flop instead of 75, she could also have room to jam turn. Wild how a small change in bet sizing can change the action on the next street.
This must be Bart's twin brother, advocating for a smaller preflop raise.
It’s bad to show there, even fish at the table might remember that in another hand with you and the front door comes in, BUT that’s sick folding top set face up to a straight flush.
Yeah, I used to show my hand more than I should have. It took me a while to break that habit.
Yeah, I wouldn't want anyone getting ideas bluffing me, seeing that I'm capable of folding top set when a flush card hits the river.
Check call the river
I think she played the hand very well with bet sizing threw the whole hand. I see this all the time and players fold due to fear. There is just to much money in the pot to check fold to a 200$ bet all in on the river. On top of it we are holding a spade as well.
Well played by the hero but she should of been telling herself she's not folding the river. Due to the opponents stack size.
I guess I am not familiar with the rules of that particular casino but I thought that if the raise was more than half of the bet, the betting was reopened?
Yeah I've heard some casinos do that rule.
Weird rule.
I know if you try to raise and it is less than 50% of a legal raise then it becomes a call. If it is over 50% then it becomes a minimum raise.
Easy fold. Happens all the time on pokerstars, that run out you see it a mile off
If she was able to rip it on the turn that button seems like he’s sticking around anyway and she would have played perfect and lost, tough hand.
Yeah but in that scenario you stack him when he bricks instead of letting him fold out and keep the little he has left.
I was waiting for Bart to say 'I've seen too much shit at this level to fold'.
This caller would be a really good tournament player with that fold😂 rough hand, rough hand.
Actually in a tournament (if I couldn't rebuy) I would fold in a cash game no
Stop believing that if you make awesome folds, then your a world class player...we all do that......your goal in poker is to make THEM fold.
...
Stopped 11:30. On your turn bet, either go $160 or $250. The $160 is so that if check raised your can shove. The $250 is to really charge the draws. The extra $40 put you in a weird spot where there can be a check shove and you can't reopen the betting. Trying to go exactly half their stack is too hard to calculate live, so go down a bit when calculating what to bet. $250 puts the player behind you in a weird spot, because if they call, EP player will shove or fold.
Stopped at 14:00 - The worst possible river, as 5s7s really gets there, and it would play exactly like this, and that is a likely hand at this point. That said, 66, 44, TT are all possible. You are not likely to beat them both, but the pot odds are so good, and it's $1-3 so I pretty much call here 100% of the time, expecting to lose, but every once in a while, there are just crazy hands that make no sense, so calling is still EV+ because of the odds. If either has 5s7s you were not getting them off that hand before the river, so betting $250 on the turn or having the betting reopen so you could shove, would be your best play, because without the 8 or a Spade, you wouldn't get more money on the river.
I don't see any real issues you had with how you played the hand, only small possible improvements that take a ton of paying attention.
"SHE CANT CALL"
She should have jammed the turn. When you have a monster and you are pretty sure they are chasing (at least one has a flush draw) you HAVE to punish them on the turn. Because once the river arrives you are either beat or they're not putting in another dime, no more hope equity no more $.
The winner was calling any and all bets on the turn. You could have thrown your car keys in and he/she would have called.
J-9 also comes in
J-9 is a good possibility here too.
The hero's sizing mistake on the turn saved her $375. The button is never folding the open-ended straight-flush draw for $375 on the turn - which he of course should not.
He should be folding that on the turn. He's only barely getting the right odds if neither other player has a better flush draw and he can be in horrendously bad shape if someone has like J9 or 89 of spades that has a better flush draw and takes some of his straight outs. And, as you saw here, there are virtually no implied odds since A) there's so little money left and B) he's so face up with his draw that she's not necessarily going to pay him. At these stakes, I'd have exploitatively just better bigger on the turn, though. He's going to incorrectly call with flush draws and definitely isn't folding other sets. Maybe not even top pair, which is something you basically ignore here anyway.
If course she has a QQ hand. She was capped in the game with her favorite hand and they wanted to exploit that.
I would have went all in blind on the turn
Hey Bart, "Small blind" or "Small blind woman." "Small blind girl" not okay. Thanks and 💜
Thumbnail : "Should I Fold FOLD top set?"
i notice the regular "caller is an idiot" comments are absent from the comments.
in other, totally unrelated news, it's nice to see a woman on the show.
I've played with her and her dad. Nice play. I learned something about your skill today.
Stalker.
Kidding.
Well, it is a dry sidepot, so yeah, you check fold reluctantly :(
She couldn’t re-jam the turn, right? It needs to be at least a double to be counted as raise? To make a re-raise?
Not just 57 j9 too
Were you an outsider to the inside group of 1-3 players there? Does it make a difference? It seems like in-group players at this level like to stack outsiders. They shove on the end with the nuts instead of going for "some" value - you would have called had they bet $250 I assume. This hand was gross - well played by you given the outcome. Would have been extra gross if Button turned over a set of 6's or 4's. But I think s/he would have raised before the river - making your actual spot even more grating. S/he had 15 outs twice (from their perspective) after the flop - don't you raise the flop or turn in that spot with fold equity and position?
Caller has potential
They'd of called 85. That looks bluffy
I can't believe you called her A FEMALE!! REEEEEEEEE
Why not just go 2/3 flop, jam turn? Fish are gonna call with a flush draw anyways and then you stack them on brick runouts.
On the turn I put SB on a set of 10
The fact that the main pot is protected with no side pot makes this a pretty easy fold in my opinion.
Villain has no incentive to bluff with the main pot protected, and there’s not much worse value that didn’t raise the turn.
You assume that villain is a reasonable, thinking poker player. If you think that they are, sure go ahead and fold.
The villan is a nut calling 45 with 5 7 spades. The mistake was not raising to 80-100 or so against these nutty players pre.
Thumbnail says "fold" twice, just fyi
If you say “if you’re from the north “ then you’re from the south 😂
If SB would've opened pre then hero never loses this hand imo
If players are calling with junky a$$ 5 7 spades they are inelastic. The mistake was not raising enough pre at this table. Small stakes exploit! I see this all the time. I'd test it out. Some tables I'd even raise to 100 pre. If they wanna call with that crap go for it! If that happened, a big pot would have been won instead of lost.
Before reveal...sure they probably have nut flush and jam but it's a crying call all day long
Interesting hand for subtle reasons. Every street played well by hero but good conversation for bet size subtleties on the first three streets plus the extreme pot odds scenario on the river. This is definitely a details hand.
She is better than me lol... I would have lost my stack here.
Id be betting bigger. At least 2/3 up to 80% on the turn! Why go smaller? Do not give draws good prices.
Ouch... God that's one of the toughest beats I've seen on the show. That was brutal.
Should have potted the flop and ripped it on the turn. I highly doubt the guy would have stuck around with the flush draw after that.
you want your opponents to fold when they are losing to you?
You're the kind of person who folds every time a flush draw comes in, aren't you?
@@Jermo484 you're the kind of person that gives your opponent pot odds to chase their flush and lose your whole stack aren't you?
@@MoreLivePoker who is folding? The guy that hit his set of 10's is calling. AQ is calling, any 2 pair is calling. Doesn't make any sense to put in 2/3 of your stack and then fold.
He didn't just have a flush draw. He had a flush draw AND a straight draw. So he had 15 outs, which is about 60% equity on the flop and 30% on the turn. Plus there are two people in the hand which gives him even better pot odds. There is no reason to think he is folding if played as you suggested. More importantly, if he only had a straight draw or a flush draw but not both, then your play is even worse. You make more money by getting people to draw and miss than you do by forcing them out of the hand.
Call river all day.
Sara plain an tall 😤
this a really easy fold I mean wtf is wrong with the analyst why would you bluff a dry side pot what do you think the guy is going to turn AQ into a bluff just to loose to the sb that has a flush a set or two pair wtf even 150$ jam would be a snap fold
Been there done that and it sucks! Now if I'm in the same spot.. I will move all in at turn.. and I don't give a shit how much I got as long as my opponent fold and won't see the river! It's better to win some than to loss big!
“He’s got the straight flush, which is rare.”
~Bart Hanson, 2022
Great caller. Many things that made sense.
I think the turn should have been either bigger or smaller where the action could reopen