Thank you so much for the effort you go through to help us make good decisions about our ground tackle. So refreshing and turns many anchor ads into laugh tracks.
When sailboats heel, the chain pile can fall over on itself. When this happens the chain can fail to deploy. And it's difficult to get the chain sorted to where it will pay out. It would be interesting to see your mock up loaded with chain tipped from side to side before attempting to deploy. Great videos.
Brilliant! Absolutely lovely test! I’d also would like to see an episode about where to locate the chain-locker and how a more centred (further aft) could affect or improve the overall balance, not only on catamarans.
Some people claim that just going up one anchor size (10lbs.) is enough to noticeably harm performance. While I find that hard to believe, I can certainly see how several hundred feet of anchor chain (that is located far forward) could increase the pitching moment enough to be noticeable. I hope to one day test this with Panope by motoring into a chop while moving weights (people?) fore and aft.
This was a great demo appropriate for most boats. Luckily, I have a centerline windlass (Lofrans Tigres) aft of our anchor well on our steel pilothouse cutter. This means I have not only a long drop from deck to chain locker, but my chain locker is a plastic gardening tub or "trug". I'm going from 165 feet to 250 feet 3/8" BBB this winter and I think having a steep sided circular bucket (probably with a petcock or other drain setup) should work better than the usual "triangular box". Or so I hope! Keep up the academic rigour so often absent in things marine.
Thank you for that. You just killed off one of our winter projects as our anchor locker is almost the same shape as your mocked up one and we use 8mm galvy. We were looking at either the traffic cone or the forward deflection method, but our existing hawse hole is just aft of the ideal central position so we seem to have the best answer already and installed by the builder 😃 One additional advantage we have is that we can access the chain locker from the deck and just knock down any piles. It is a little awkward because we have to twist around a bit but I think if we alter anything we will just make things worse. So thanks once again 👍
Thank you SO much for making this video, I was going to go the ramp/chute root, but, I now see I have some more figuring to do. You saved me a bunch of time and effort. Thanks again.
Merry Christmas for you and your family and thank you for all the ideas you have for your tests on the subject of anchoring! It seems that you are setting "the standart" for looking at anchoring ⚓️.!
I have 300 ft of rusty 3/8” chain. This has been a big problem. Thanks for your efforts and excellent video. I’m replacing the chain with less chain and a rope to chain splice. Also a new anchor swivel should help since twisted chain adds to the problem.
So Steve, I thought a lot about this whole problem of anchor chains during my ten years in Mexico. I anchored out constantly and found the chain rusted quickly from sitting in salt in the locker. I also do not want to go to smaller chain with my new boat, as when the wind gets up a bit I don't want to be waltzing all over the Anchorage, as catamarans and those on rope do. The biggest and heaviest chain I see on most boats is 3/8 bbb, but my current boat weighs three times as much as my former boat, the 3/8 chain won't be as much of an advantage, but still some. Now I am rigging a fresh water wash down, which will spray all the chain as it comes aboard. It should not rust as much.
FYI, did a quick test with traffic cones when trying to sort out our locker, and got the same result as you with one that had a flat cut top. The chain eventually would lay across the top and then pile up the sides of the cone and over the top again until it plugged. But on a rounded top cone this did not happen, the chain continued to slip off the rounded top and spiral around the cone and be more randomly distributed. And fall over better around the base of the cone. Perhaps a case of a small difference having a large effect? Can you try a smooth rounded top cone, to confirm my findings?
Wow, that was very informative. THANK YOU. I am refitting a Tartan 37 for long term cruising (much larger than my previous Pearson's (wanderer/vanguard etc). Will be single handing at times, so apropo for situation. Appreciate the visual!
I had the same issue on my boat and came to the exact same conclusions as you when I corrected it. 1. Move the hole so that it’s central and over the deepest part of the locker. 2. Get rid of the old rusty chain that has extra friction.
Very good for a fair and even comparison. In my opinion real world conditions would show both chains storing a little more than in your test. A rocking vessel will help distribute the chain more evenly in the allowed space. I imagine the SS chain would effectively use almost all of the available space.
Great test. Thank you 😊 But my first thought when you started this test was; what if the bottom/floor of the chain locker was shaped like an A (30-40 degrees) and chain feed in center. Would’nt this get the chain to better fill up the sides as well, and get more chain in? Almost like the cone, just sharper edge, with no posibility to build up on the top, like the cone. Just a thought… 😊
fascinating demonstration of chains piling up - i'm one for finding possible solutions, maybe this has been tried, i was thinking the ramp might work better if it were rounded downward and shaped more like a tongue, and then sprung loaded, suspended on bungee or spring, it would then bounce as the chain hits it, shifting it about perhaps, be great to see what effect this has if any
Having looked into the locker gadgets a slippery ball mounted on a pipe would be beneficial. I may make a spool, though having the room the mess is an issue. I have considered a rotating guide similar to barrel sized welding wire, novel if it could work. Thanks.
Steve, that’s interesting, another reason to upgrade to G70 chain and downsize gauge. I’ve gone from 10mm G30 to 8mm G70 which has the effect of only a marginally increased weight of rode even though I’ve increased length from 60m to 80m. Also the WLL has increased with the higher spec chain. Now I can add that the chain fits in the locker better too. Happy Christmas to you and your family over there from us over here in the UK.
@@superwag634 yes, I’ve heard that said and that therefore g70 chain is “single use” only. That makes it an expensive solution but the benefits of it are considerable. Personal choice, I don’t know whether I’d regalvanise chain here in the UK anyway as there are very few galvanisers and generally they are not keen to mess about with leisure boat anchor chain, I suspect because the job is too low value, they’d rather focus on high value commercial jobs.
Traffic cone is grippy and concave flat topped, something ball nosed and hard/smooth/slipery and raised up to spread without consuming massive volume might very well beat plain.
Hi Steve, new to your channel. Really enjoyed your piece on chain lockers and piling problems. We have a Grand Banks 42 and have had continued issues with pile up sometimes in risky conditions naturally near the last 10-20 feet. On a Lee shore in windy conditions that becomes interesting. I’ve reduced the rode down to 140 feet of 3/8” BBB with 8 braid nylon rode for the next 200 feet in a divided compartment and still have the occasional pile up. Thats simply not enough in 50 feet or more. So I’m going to remove the divider to see if I can improve the process. To that end I’m thinking of using a Crosby 3/8” C-Link to connect another 70-100feet. My question is have you ever considered testing “chain connectors”? I’ve reviewed the working loads for the Crosby C-Link at 1250 Kgs. It appears close to the working load for our existing chain. Your comments? Really have enjoyed your testing.we have a Bruce 30kg. Regards, David Boyer S/V CHIKILI GB42 MotorYacht. Home Port Vancouver, BC.
My boat has a dividers board. It’s just of center of the hole and longitudinal. The first compartment fils up than it the rest starts over at the other side. Our rope is also attached and lives in the second locker. Meaning that if the rope is used you mus roll it in that locker. But we have a hatch aft of the winch.
HUMM, interesting. I've wondered about SS chain. I had..a cutwater C30 power boat. I prefered to always anchor on the hook. It had 75ft of chain. Not much, but wow, it had a shallow locker and would pile after about 30 ft. So frustrating. My next boat will be a C-dory 25 power boat. It will hopefullly hold 75ft also. If not, I'll look into SS chain. Seems to be the best. Any downsides to SS chain? I have a mantus SS swivel already. Does SS chain play nicely with a galvized anchor?
My chain locker is a little larger, wider, longer, , but still have issues. I plan to move the entry point further forward, and install a movable plastic ramp to lift up and direct the chain further aft, where the locker is wider. I will run a shifter cable up thru the deck on the bow, and will adjust the plastic ramp as necessary. perhaps a U-TUBE Video in my future :-))😊
Always a problem - we have an access port to push the pile over as it comes in. Not a big deal - I also use clean engine oil on the chain if I'm not going to use it for a while and that really helps too, as well as reducing rust.
could you also show the chute at the forward centreline location? my windlass was installed too far forwards and im wondering if a small chute or roller would help
I have 3/8 rusty galv chain 😁 goes into the locker ok.... but feeding it out is an absolute nightmare. Always seems to come out in a twisted mess and jamms in the chain gypsy.
Worse still than pile height blocking reentry is when the tall pile gets tipped and up ended in a seaway effectively tangling it and preventing redeployment.
Hi steve I've been having a little back and forth on anchoring and anchorages a facebook group. One guy commented that you do not even need an anchor if you have enough chain out. I replied that may apply to ships but small boats they would drag without an anchor But yet there are a few people insist that the chain alone Will hold the boat. Is this something you would be interested in producing a video on ?
The coefficient of friction between the chain and a normal sand or mud seabed will be less than 1, probably closer to 0.5. this means that 100 pounds of chain will have much less than 100 pounds of holding power. For my boat, this will provide adequate holding up to roughly 10 knots wind. That is certainly not enough for me to get a decent night's sleep. Not sure if it would be worthwhile to make video/test on "anchorless anchoring", but now that you mention it, I too have ran across a few sailors that have held the belief that most of the holding power comes from the chain. As you said, this is true for ships, but not for small boats.
Our problem on my Tartan 37C is not the lack of height on the "castling" chain but when you sailed it would fall over and get jammed so that we could not easily get the chain out when dropping the hook the next time. What I did which totally fixed it was to epoxy a piece of plywood to the side of the chainlocker, onto this was a piano hinge attached to another board. This board could be moved or waved as the chain comes in keeping it from castling and spreading the chain flat. There is a small line that runs through the deck via a spare hawse pipe to a corner of the movable wood which is pulled up and down as the chain comes in. Sounds complicated but is easy to make and has worked perfect in 10 years of cruising.
We coated the 135 ft of 5/16 BBB on our PSC 35 sailboat with Boeshield T-9 before we left for the Bahamas on each of our last three trips. A half can of Boeshield was sprayed on the chain in a tub or box and stirred about to get a uniform coating. It greatly reduced the tendency of the chain to castle, and it it remained useful for 3 or 4 months of daily anchoring before washing off. I suspect that paraffin wax dissolved in kerosene would work equally well.
Wire rode on a drum style windlass is fairly common on commercial fishing boats in here in the PNW. One drawback is the difficulty in attaching a snubber (for shock absorption) unless the rode is made of segments of say, 25 feet length (with eyes at each end).
dude, u rock! Just love how you are combining practical problems with 'scientific-practical' experiments.
Thank you so much for the effort you go through to help us make good decisions about our ground tackle. So refreshing and turns many anchor ads into laugh tracks.
When sailboats heel, the chain pile can fall over on itself. When this happens the chain can fail to deploy. And it's difficult to get the chain sorted to where it will pay out. It would be interesting to see your mock up loaded with chain tipped from side to side before attempting to deploy. Great videos.
I wonder if this is where the traffic cone would shine? My hunch is that would would hold the pile steady and prevent much of that sort of tangling.
Wow, this is timely -- I have to construct a new deck-pipe for my little Bristol, so this was made to order (big THANKS)
Brilliant! Absolutely lovely test! I’d also would like to see an episode about where to locate the chain-locker and how a more centred (further aft) could affect or improve the overall balance, not only on catamarans.
Some people claim that just going up one anchor size (10lbs.) is enough to noticeably harm performance. While I find that hard to believe, I can certainly see how several hundred feet of anchor chain (that is located far forward) could increase the pitching moment enough to be noticeable. I hope to one day test this with Panope by motoring into a chop while moving weights (people?) fore and aft.
This was a great demo appropriate for most boats. Luckily, I have a centerline windlass (Lofrans Tigres) aft of our anchor well on our steel pilothouse cutter. This means I have not only a long drop from deck to chain locker, but my chain locker is a plastic gardening tub or "trug". I'm going from 165 feet to 250 feet 3/8" BBB this winter and I think having a steep sided circular bucket (probably with a petcock or other drain setup) should work better than the usual "triangular box". Or so I hope! Keep up the academic rigour so often absent in things marine.
Thank you for that. You just killed off one of our winter projects as our anchor locker is almost the same shape as your mocked up one and we use 8mm galvy. We were looking at either the traffic cone or the forward deflection method, but our existing hawse hole is just aft of the ideal central position so we seem to have the best answer already and installed by the builder 😃
One additional advantage we have is that we can access the chain locker from the deck and just knock down any piles. It is a little awkward because we have to twist around a bit but I think if we alter anything we will just make things worse.
So thanks once again 👍
Thank you SO much for making this video, I was going to go the ramp/chute root, but, I now see I have some more figuring to do. You saved me a bunch of time and effort. Thanks again.
Merry Christmas for you and your family and thank you for all the ideas you have for your tests on the subject of anchoring!
It seems that you are setting "the standart" for looking at anchoring ⚓️.!
I have 300 ft of rusty 3/8” chain. This has been a big problem. Thanks for your efforts and excellent video. I’m replacing the chain with less chain and a rope to chain splice. Also a new anchor swivel should help since twisted chain adds to the problem.
So Steve, I thought a lot about this whole problem of anchor chains during my ten years in Mexico. I anchored out constantly and found the chain rusted quickly from sitting in salt in the locker. I also do not want to go to smaller chain with my new boat, as when the wind gets up a bit I don't want to be waltzing all over the Anchorage, as catamarans and those on rope do. The biggest and heaviest chain I see on most boats is 3/8 bbb, but my current boat weighs three times as much as my former boat, the 3/8 chain won't be as much of an advantage, but still some. Now I am rigging a fresh water wash down, which will spray all the chain as it comes aboard. It should not rust as much.
FYI, did a quick test with traffic cones when trying to sort out our locker, and got the same result as you with one that had a flat cut top. The chain eventually would lay across the top and then pile up the sides of the cone and over the top again until it plugged.
But on a rounded top cone this did not happen, the chain continued to slip off the rounded top and spiral around the cone and be more randomly distributed. And fall over better around the base of the cone.
Perhaps a case of a small difference having a large effect? Can you try a smooth rounded top cone, to confirm my findings?
Do you have a photo of your solution?
Thankyou for your efforts great video and a thing I'll look at when buying my new boat.
Really interesting and helpful. Thanks!
Wow, that was very informative. THANK YOU. I am refitting a Tartan 37 for long term cruising (much larger than my previous Pearson's (wanderer/vanguard etc). Will be single handing at times, so apropo for situation. Appreciate the visual!
I had the same issue on my boat and came to the exact same conclusions as you when I corrected it. 1. Move the hole so that it’s central and over the deepest part of the locker. 2. Get rid of the old rusty chain that has extra friction.
Thank you. Excellent testing and video.
Very good for a fair and even comparison. In my opinion real world conditions would show both chains storing a little more than in your test. A rocking vessel will help distribute the chain more evenly in the allowed space. I imagine the SS chain would effectively use almost all of the available space.
Thanks for the workout!
Helpful 👍
Thank you for attacking this enoying and common problem!🙏
Great information. Thank you
Great test. Thank you 😊
But my first thought when you started this test was; what if the bottom/floor of the chain locker was shaped like an A (30-40 degrees) and chain feed in center. Would’nt this get the chain to better fill up the sides as well, and get more chain in? Almost like the cone, just sharper edge, with no posibility to build up on the top, like the cone.
Just a thought… 😊
fascinating demonstration of chains piling up - i'm one for finding possible solutions, maybe this has been tried, i was thinking the ramp might work better if it were rounded downward and shaped more like a tongue, and then sprung loaded, suspended on bungee or spring, it would then bounce as the chain hits it, shifting it about perhaps, be great to see what effect this has if any
Glad we upgraded to SS as we're often shorthanded. We've had no problems of chain heaps since
Yeah! SV Panope drops a video!
Great information! Thank you
Having looked into the locker gadgets a slippery ball mounted on a pipe would be beneficial. I may make a spool, though having the room the mess is an issue. I have considered a rotating guide similar to barrel sized welding wire, novel if it could work. Thanks.
Steve, that’s interesting, another reason to upgrade to G70 chain and downsize gauge. I’ve gone from 10mm G30 to 8mm G70 which has the effect of only a marginally increased weight of rode even though I’ve increased length from 60m to 80m. Also the WLL has increased with the higher spec chain. Now I can add that the chain fits in the locker better too. Happy Christmas to you and your family over there from us over here in the UK.
The only issue with higher strength chain is that the heat treatment done to it when new can be damaged if you ever need to regalvanise.
@@superwag634 yes, I’ve heard that said and that therefore g70 chain is “single use” only. That makes it an expensive solution but the benefits of it are considerable. Personal choice, I don’t know whether I’d regalvanise chain here in the UK anyway as there are very few galvanisers and generally they are not keen to mess about with leisure boat anchor chain, I suspect because the job is too low value, they’d rather focus on high value commercial jobs.
Traffic cone is grippy and concave flat topped, something ball nosed and hard/smooth/slipery and raised up to spread without consuming massive volume might very well beat plain.
Hi Steve, new to your channel. Really enjoyed your piece on chain lockers and piling problems. We have a Grand Banks 42 and have had continued issues with pile up sometimes in risky conditions naturally near the last 10-20 feet. On a Lee shore in windy conditions that becomes interesting. I’ve reduced the rode down to 140 feet of 3/8” BBB with 8 braid nylon rode for the next 200 feet in a divided compartment and still have the occasional pile up. Thats simply not enough in 50 feet or more. So I’m going to remove the divider to see if I can improve the process. To that end I’m thinking of using a Crosby 3/8” C-Link to connect another 70-100feet. My question is have you ever considered testing “chain connectors”? I’ve reviewed the working loads for the Crosby C-Link at 1250 Kgs. It appears close to the working load for our existing chain. Your comments? Really have enjoyed your testing.we have a Bruce 30kg. Regards, David Boyer S/V CHIKILI GB42 MotorYacht. Home Port Vancouver, BC.
Great job. Thanks
Sweet refit on the bow
My boat has a dividers board. It’s just of center of the hole and longitudinal.
The first compartment fils up than it the rest starts over at the other side.
Our rope is also attached and lives in the second locker. Meaning that if the rope is used you mus roll it in that locker.
But we have a hatch aft of the winch.
I should have read further down. I said pretty much the same thing as you.
HUMM, interesting. I've wondered about SS chain. I had..a cutwater C30 power boat. I prefered to always anchor on the hook. It had 75ft of chain. Not much, but wow, it had a shallow locker and would pile after about 30 ft. So frustrating. My next boat will be a C-dory 25 power boat. It will hopefullly hold 75ft also. If not, I'll look into SS chain. Seems to be the best. Any downsides to SS chain? I have a mantus SS swivel already. Does SS chain play nicely with a galvized anchor?
My chain locker is a little larger, wider, longer, , but still have issues. I plan to move the entry point further forward, and install a movable plastic ramp to lift up and direct the chain further aft, where the locker is wider. I will run a shifter cable up thru the deck on the bow, and will adjust the plastic ramp as necessary. perhaps a U-TUBE Video in my future :-))😊
I have stainless steel and it works great!
Always a problem - we have an access port to push the pile over as it comes in. Not a big deal - I also use clean engine oil on the chain if I'm not going to use it for a while and that really helps too, as well as reducing rust.
could you also show the chute at the forward centreline location? my windlass was installed too far forwards and im wondering if a small chute or roller would help
I have 3/8 rusty galv chain 😁 goes into the locker ok.... but feeding it out is an absolute nightmare. Always seems to come out in a twisted mess and jamms in the chain gypsy.
What about a divider that goes up more than 1/2 the height of your locker? That way as it tops off one side, it could fall to the other side.
Worse still than pile height blocking reentry is when the tall pile gets tipped and up ended in a seaway effectively tangling it and preventing redeployment.
A steel rod (or a stick) stuck down thru the deck opening can topple the chain pile without having to go below. Not 100 percent better, but better.
Maybe a stainless stanchion with a ball end would work better than a cone, or moving the hole closer to the vertical bulkhead.
Thanks....❤
Could you explain the the chain hook you have bolted to the deck please?
I use the chain hook to remove loads from the windlass.
The manual action most likely increased capacity over winching at a consistent speed.
Why would a person/boat have such a small chain locker?
Hi steve
I've been having a little back and forth on anchoring and anchorages a facebook group.
One guy commented that you do not even need an anchor if you have enough chain out. I replied that may apply to ships but small boats they would drag without an anchor But yet there are a few people insist that the chain alone
Will hold the boat. Is this something you would be interested in producing a video on ?
The coefficient of friction between the chain and a normal sand or mud seabed will be less than 1, probably closer to 0.5. this means that 100 pounds of chain will have much less than 100 pounds of holding power. For my boat, this will provide adequate holding up to roughly 10 knots wind. That is certainly not enough for me to get a decent night's sleep.
Not sure if it would be worthwhile to make video/test on "anchorless anchoring", but now that you mention it, I too have ran across a few sailors that have held the belief that most of the holding power comes from the chain. As you said, this is true for ships, but not for small boats.
Our problem on my Tartan 37C is not the lack of height on the "castling" chain but when you sailed it would fall over and get jammed so that we could not easily get the chain out when dropping the hook the next time. What I did which totally fixed it was to epoxy a piece of plywood to the side of the chainlocker, onto this was a piano hinge attached to another board. This board could be moved or waved as the chain comes in keeping it from castling and spreading the chain flat. There is a small line that runs through the deck via a spare hawse pipe to a corner of the movable wood which is pulled up and down as the chain comes in. Sounds complicated but is easy to make and has worked perfect in 10 years of cruising.
Thanks for posting that clever solution.
Do you have a photo?
No but will get one in 4 weeks or so, away from the boat now
there are actual purpose made hanging cones for this
A person in the yard recommended that I soak my chain in olive oil and it would no-longer stack when dropping into the chain locker.
We coated the 135 ft of 5/16 BBB on our PSC 35 sailboat with Boeshield T-9 before we left for the Bahamas on each of our last three trips. A half can of Boeshield was sprayed on the chain in a tub or box and stirred about to get a uniform coating. It greatly reduced the tendency of the chain to castle, and it it remained useful for 3 or 4 months of daily anchoring before washing off.
I suspect that paraffin wax dissolved in kerosene would work equally well.
What is the depth of your test locker from deck to bottom?
19 inches
Carhart clothes alone makes him more creditable.
Would you have contact information for the 10mm german stainless?
www.cromox-us.com/
@@flygoodwin Thank you!
Has anyone ever tried galvanized wire rope as an anchor rode. (perhaps stowed on a reel?)
Wire rode on a drum style windlass is fairly common on commercial fishing boats in here in the PNW. One drawback is the difficulty in attaching a snubber (for shock absorption) unless the rode is made of segments of say, 25 feet length (with eyes at each end).
@@flygoodwin Something to think about, thanks for the reply
FLAKE THAT CHAIN