Why Don't F1 Cars Have A Handbrake?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- After Carlos Sainz's sketchy incident at the Austrian Grand Prix this year, we take a look at why F1 cars don't need a handbrake...
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I had no idea the marshals were volunteers
They definitely deserve to get PAID
Oh yes, they are the unsung herores of Motorsport. Without them we could not go motor racing.
For a lot of people the opportunity of being that close to the track, cars and drivers during the whole GP is enough of a payment and I cannot disagree with them, if F1 raced closer to my home I'd also consider volunteering
Even at track day events, marshalls aren't paid. What I have seen done, it to run a donation at driver's meeting. The proceeds are then equally distributed among the volunteers.
id marshall for free if that means i can watch a f1 weekend trackside
@@DawidSikora I completely understand that from the perspective of the individual. That doesnt change the fact that its exploitation on the part of the race organizers who certainly should be paying them
I have to say I believe the person claiming to be a Marshal. The scene he described was accurate, it did happen on camera. Carlos was telling a marshal to put a wedge and he did and the car had too much momentum and simply went over the wedge and kept rolling.
Kym Illman's recent video mentioned that the first marshal arriving did have a chock and put it under the wheel but it kept slipping. Kym happened to be walking up to the next corner as the crash occurred and got some pretty good pictures.
I dont think the car rolled over it i saw it on tv it looked like the wedge was slipping back and obviously the car couldn't stop.
@@hugbear984 yeah it was skipping along because of the slope and the momentum of the car
I don't get why the wedge they use is so small and has no handle. The marshal had to get his fingers dangerously close to a rolling wheel, so he couldn't get the chock in straight, so it kept slipping and pushing it sideways. There was also some steering angle which didn't help. Glad Carlos is ok and the marshal didn't lose a finger.
The key thing with the wedges is that they're to keep a stopped car from moving (after recovery), not to stop a rolling car. Plus they hadn't accounted for the larger wheels this season.
The marshal that physically turned the front wheels so it rolled back into the barrier on fire instead of all the way down onto the track on fire is a hero!
True. And Carlos could have done it too probably. The wall is still the best brake
Because F1 cars are built different
Literally
they built different cuh
@@qieraxtiramisu6180 yeah exactly
Not really…most of race car doesn’t have handbrake either 😂
Ong
During this year's Nurburgring 24hr race, we saw a similar style incident take place with a KTM X-Bow. It stopped off track near marshals, clearly on fire. The driver started making their way out, and the marshal started extinguishing the fire. But the KTM started rolling down the hill! It literally rolled back on to the track, before eventually crossing over to the opposite side and crashing in to a barrier, finally coming to a stop again. ruclips.net/video/eVJ_f88iFzE/видео.html Video for reference. I don't know if GT cars also omit handbrakes.
No the KTM does not have a handbrake, as most GTs. There was a incident a few years back on the gp track with a Ferrari 488 GT3, which was on fire. ruclips.net/video/RNhwQ4JdyPU/видео.html
(At 2:45)
@@flo6119 I vaguely remember that moment from that year's race, now that I watched the replay of it. They don't show it in that video, but didn't it eventually roll back down the hill? Or was that a different VLN race entirely. I recall something like that happening years ago.
I know the driver of that car in that situation. He's a popular german youtuber and he explained that he put his car in neutral before he switched the car off. He then realised that he has to hold the brake pedal to keep the car stopped but had to jump out as the fire was too big for him to be safe in the car. The rest you see in the clip
@@Ihateslowtubeyou're not wrong, it was this years 24h where the ktm rolled down the section Fuchsröhre while it was on fire
@@flo6119 wrong
He could always have turned the wheel towards the wall. Kinda like how they used to teach you how to park on a hill. So if it rolls it hits the curb/wall and stops…. Simple solution to Carlos’ problem.
But could he? If you turn the wheel then the angle would be much closer to the driver's legs. You have to remove the wheel to get out of the car. Can the wheel be removed when it is on full lock? Not arguing with you: I am just not sure it is as simple as you say.
I think F1 drivers usually miss that important lesson during puberty because they're busy learning to manage tyres and attacking apexes instead 😚
probably would have had the steering wheel off
What I imagine is that he already had the steering wheel out, then he tried to brake. No wheel, difficult to turn.
I don't know what ferrari's shut off procedure is in case of fire, or if the fire caused a hydrolics leak that disabled the gearbox control, but shouldn't carlos have been able to keep the car in gear, and turn the engine off with the main ignition switch? That car wouldnt roll back down that hill in 7th gear i imagine.. I know from experience this is how to park formula renault cars, but those aren't as technically developed as f1 cars.
Hopefully they can install something or get breaks to lock in a event like this. Going backwards into a crash on fire is horrific. Nice video. Keep up the good work.
I think the full all wheels brake should be applied automatically once the steering wheel is disconnected and stay that way after reconnecting the steering wheel unless the driver or marshal unlock it.
With brake by wire system this shouldn't add any more weight since that would be just some additional lines in the code.
I see that being dangerous. The steering wheel getting disconnected mid race has definitely happened a few times.
@@fgsaramago In which case, add a condition which applies the brake if the car is stationary (or travelling below a given speed..say 20mph) and the steering wheel is removed.
@@oliverbradshaw4006 wow you are definitely a genius programmer
This are actually pretty good ideas guys
Or just a button which applies full braking......, have it somewhere you would t accidently hit and problem solved
If you don't want your race car rolling away put it in gear before shutting it off! But since F1 has gone elec/hydraulic for shifting instead of a real gearbox just turn the wheel so the car rolls back up against the wall like you learned in drivers-ed when parking on a hill.
I imagine the gear box was involved in the explosion and probably not functioning.
@@purpledahlia1969 And that is also assuming that an f1 gearbox would behave like this guys mom's toyota
We would need to see if the gearbox even allowed Carlos to do that. F1 cars have hundreds of failsafes to avoid the engines and geaborxes being totaled by human error (for example, Charles couldn't downshift with the throttle sticked).
Parking against the signs/barrier was the simplest way to stop the car but I imagine Carlos, frustrated and angry and also with a bit of fire on his back, didn't really was aware of everything.
In a normal situation the gearbox is meant to be left in neutral and the steering wheel to be in place when a driver leaves his F1 car. Yes I know the car was on fire and this was not normal but I assume Carlos would have instinctively left the car in neutral when he first pulled up.
It was scary. Imagine being in a car that's on fire and not being able to exit because it's rolling backwards. It was weird that they couldn't stop the car. This is something they should have been prepared for. The marshall that turned the wheel is a hero, can't have been easy.
Anyone else screaming at the tv/Carlos to just turn the wheel so it rolled into the barrier? 🤦🏻♂️
Yuppp
I swear they don’t teach kids how to drive/park anymore. Those youngsters don’t understand just turn the wheel.
It’s actually funny you made this video I play GT and there’s various cars and they have a hand brake. But what’s funny is the hand brake is still usable with race cars and open wheel cars too so it’s kinda funny to me. And now I see this video it reminds me of pressing the hand brake while driving an open wheel car to get a little oversteer for corners or to cheekily shave off some speed when I’m understeering wide.
I personally felt the situation was really scarry for Carlos , I think Marshall who I have great respect for should have regular training courses and they should try and undergo the various possible situation .
They should be payed though
Pay them, then you can demand that
@@fgsaramago exactly
@@westghost_lvl1 agreed. In addition, I’m sure they do undergo training, but who is responsible for the training is the main question I think. The FIA should be funding marshal training if they can take the crown princes money
It really wasnt, he was pretty safe. And he could just have turned the wheels so the car would be wedged against the barrier... other ex-F1 drivers where wondering after the race why he didnt do that. But he was probably to nervous. So I wouldnt blame the marshalls, they were not to slow since Carlos could have sat in there up to another minute without any harm, thx to the fire proof gear.
Simple: Imagine going 200mph and then you accidentally press a handbrake button. The cars wheels fly off Sebastien Buemi style or worse the car flips from the sudden stop.
The wheels would stay connected the car, as only the rear axle would lock under the brake load. The real problem in that scenario would be dealing with a car travelling 200mph with a locked rear axle.... If it were all fly-by-wire, you could program a condition to stop the handbrake from being engaged in such a situation, however!
No different to days electric h/brakes....they unlock when you drive off.
I thought the cars front tires will go Buemi... 🤔😂
@@Revtiva Yeah it was Buemi sorry
Pretty sure they could add a button that locks the breaks on that fancy wheel
They actually have a button that puts the car in NEUTRAL and they are obliged to press it when they stop alongside the track.
That is why the car rolls back. It would be possible to make an exception to that rule like "you do not need to put the car in neutral when it is parked off the track and is in danger of rolling (back onto the track or into something) when left".
Then he could have left the car in gear and jump out without issue. But as it is now, that would have caused him getting a penalty. It is probably second nature for all drivers to press the neutral button whenever they have any problem with the car.
@@Rob2 I knew they could put it in neutral but I didn't know it was against the rules to not do so even in this situation
@@boigercat Probably the rule does not mention situations where it would be better not to apply it. You know, the F1 rulebook...
@@Rob2 haha yeah
Probably not a in the moment thought, but he could have steered the car backwards into the wall next to him to stop it rolling backwards, but as they say hindsight is a wonderful thing :-)
Remember the incident at the 24h Nbr where the burning XBow gtx rolled down foxhole
That first marshal could have shoved the fire extinguisher behind the wheel when the tiny wedge didn't work....they clearly had more equipment ready to fight a fire than they had to immobilize a car.
The drivers can leave the car in 1st which should prevent the car from rolling, then the marshalls can press the N button on the car to get the transmission into neutral.
Next Video: Why F1 cars don't have reverse parking camera
Or why F1 cars don't have front facing cameras on the wing, to assist drivers in keeping the car within the white lines....
F1 drivers can do that without cameras. Or at least, when they want to do it.
The original excuse for Grand Prix was to improve the breed of road cars in engines, tyres and transmissions etc. early GP cars did have handbrakes although they were seldom used in practice. The race for performance has allowed some slipshod rules to come into being. IMHO, there should be a REQUIREMENT for all F1 cars to have a functioning parking brake and a practical first gear. If the rule applies to all teams it is not unfair
Engineer: "Carlos stop on the gravel please, car is on fire"
Carlos: "Guys, please stop inventing things"
would love to see a handbrake so they can do a handbrake turn at the hairpins in Canada and monaco
They could do the same thing as in light aircraft, where you basically press the brakes then twist/pull a lever that doesn’t let the brakes depress, basically no extra weight
If the car had been pulled into the gravel it wouldn't have rolled backwards. I know in the heat of the moment Carlos didn't think about that but that's the simplest solution to the problem and maybe they'll implement that in the future.
Can confirm the marshal trying to use the parking block to stop the car. You can see it on the replay, he tries to throw the wedge down but the car is already in motion and sort of skips over it. As far as the extinguisher, yes even if it's not a big enough cannister to completely extinguish the flame, if you are there and can safely deploy it, you should because it can slow down the growth of the flames dramatically. Lessons learned.
They can add a handbrake without adding weight. Since the brakes are electric they can do it in software. Mode 999 for braking. If a driver puts it jn that mode the brake will be full one.
Similar reason why you can’t use lift when fire occur…
If it catches fire than all electronics are gone, brakes no longer exist
I was today years old when I found out the marshalls don't get paid
makes me respect what they do much more
But in brazil GP, all the cars are either in a decline or an incline when the start but they stay in their place
Whatching the race one of my friends actually screamed:HAAAAANDBRAAAKE! Haha
Carlos could just turn left and then the left rear wheel would touch the wall and stop the car
He probably does not live in a city with steeply inclined roads....
You forget that they have to take the wheel off to get out do you?
He was half way out and probably fumbling to get it back on even partly standing up
it is pretty obvious why, you dont need it in a race car and it costs weight 😂
And in the case of Carlos, he could have put the car or in the gravel or turned his car backwards with the rear left tire against the barrier. But i think in a situation like that you wouldnt come up with that. It escalated very quickly
Wouldn't it make sense from a safety point of view if all cars were forced to have a handbrake? I know that the hill type situation is a rare occurrence but there's still potential there for something to go wrong. If the marshalls are too slow and the driver has to jump out, there can be a burning car rolling back down onto a live track.
It's a lot of extra weight, and complication in a few parts of the car, for a rare situation that can usually be solved by a marshal with a wedge
Still not a viable choice
@@Septimus_ii But if the extra weight will be for every car I don't understand why it matters?
@@Septimus_ii its not extra weight at all
You literally just need a button which fully locks the brakes when pressed
They use brake by wire
@@Alucard-gt1zf you need electricity to operate the brake in a system by wires. In a road car there's a separated circuit to engage parking or, if the parking brake is not electronic (the usual "handbrake"), there's a wire coming from the lever to the back wheels. So, yes, one way or the other, it is extra weight.
It really is a much more complicated solution than a freaking wedge.
It would be nice if the cars had something like a brake lock, locking the brake pedal and, then, the brakes. Obviously, this lock would have to be redesigned to not be that hard to activate in an emergency, but not too easy to engage accidentally.
You can have a handbrake without increasing weight. The cars are on brake-by-wire systems. You just need a button to engage it or some sort of menu option on the wheel (although this would take too much time in case of an emergency). I'd say some sort of combo like hold both gear shifters for 3 seconds to engage both rear brakes.
You would need electricity for that. But when the engine is stopped, there is no power to engage any brake-by-wire systems
@@yourDecisi0n Clearly Carlos was able to make it stop multiple times during the incident so the brake-by-wire must've still been working and having an emergency brake button on the wheel or separately should've been able to do the same.
@@tHebUm18 Well yes, but brake-by-wire does not require electricity to brake, but would so, if you need a button for it at least. Next issue is, the marshals would not be able to move the car, when the brakes are locked
@@yourDecisi0n Same problem if the car stops in gear. The hand brake could simply disengage when they push the N button on the car.
@@yourDecisi0n Brake by wire definitely needs electricity, it's just that the car automatically reverts to normal hydraulic braking in case bbw fails
Love ya, continue do this video they are really helpful to understand everything better
I was more concerned about this marshal not having gloves on while dealing with fire, than Carlos provided that he was fully protected by his race suit
3:49 thats Greg Murphy and Scott McLaughlin, aussie ex-V8 supercar drivers!
While the car’d going down, understeer towards the barriers. The barriers will block the car. Sometimes you need accurate and quick thinking in difficult situations
Almost as bad as the big rollover at Rally Kenya where the marshals just stood and watched the driver and co driver crawl out of the broken front windshield. Allegedly they were told to never touch the hybrid Rally1 cars
maybe just maybe the drivers should be instructed to turn the steering hard in one direction so if it rolls it turns into the barrier?
Part of the reason the car couldn't be left in gear to stop it rolling back was because the engine had grenaded itself, if any of those bits we saw flying out from under the car had been the crankshaft failing then there would be nothing but friction within the transmission stopping the car rolling away. I have seen a car roll off a ramp because an apprentice forgot that being in gear wasn't enough to immobilize the car when the spark plugs had been removed.
Just do like the do on golf carts. Put a brake lock on the pedal. Put a button on the steering wheel on the bottom on the back of it (so the driver can’t accidentally press it during the race) and when holding the brake down, push it and the brake will hold in that position keeping the car from moving
I mean theres a burning F1 car pulling up to you (the volunteer) I’d imagine you’d have some experience to make the job; I could also imagine freaking out about what the right call is to make. Do you extinguish the fire right away? Do you try to get Carlos out? Do you stop the car? Who’s coming out to help you? Theres a lot going on and very little time to do them in
I mean, you could see on the F1 broadcast the first guy on scene had a little chock he was trying to get in place, but the car was on fire and rolling so he had a hard time getting it in place.
I was so scared for Carlos at that moment. It really was difficult to watch.
For next video of this series, do it about why f1-cars don't have turn signals
There was a chock for the wheel. I saw the marshal trying to stop the car for the front right wheel. It just pushed it down before it went over it. You could see it in the live video feed from the race. It did take them a while to get it out there though.
How about a button (maybe right next to the fire extinguisher button inside the cockpit) which automaticly puts the breaks at 100% breakpower?
It's almost like it has a normal brake used for everything just like a normal car. And when it is in the barrier it's usually all smashed up and doesn't really need one
Full left lock in to the Armco roll in to the wall, wheel off, get out the car, not sure why chilli didn’t think of this straight away but I guess fires a bit panicky
They can have a small button which can lock the "leg" brake in its place instead of investing on handbrake... I think it won't be more than 500 gms, but can save the car from irreparable damage or god forbid, blow up when the driver is still in car trying to stop the car
I knew this video was coming when I saw Carlos Sainz getting out of the car while it was moving
I’ve been wondering this since Abu Dhabi 2021 when again they told Checo to use the handbrake
F1 should have a pull lever, or some sort of Air jack system like Indy Car. Not for pitstops but for car retirements like engine failure, on hills with distinct incline or if its sliding uncontrollably on gravel (wheels down of course). Although that would just add more weight to the car. I'm not sure.
not really sure if it would be practical either, just my opinion.
I'm really curious to see the full video of that clip with Scott McLaughlin pulling the handbrakes on a moving car
I wonder if race tracks would have features around them... something to slow or stop a car in case of emergency such as a pit or a shallow trap filled with maybe snot covered colorful balls or possibly gravel... I don't know
Man this channel I used to watch a lot now it’s rare for me to
It's still insane that multi billion sports don't have a pay marshal
"They're not throwing it back"
Guanyu Zhou in Monaco:
Another bang up job at editing, Katie 🙃
Something I'm surprised hasn't been brought up. F1 brakes are brake by wire. There is absolutely no need for a mechanical hand brake. One button that engages the brakes in the event of a failure. Even when cars are turned off the ECU's can remain "awake" for about 10-15 minutes and will periodically "wake up" once asleep to check the cars status (this being on your average everyday car). I'm sure while the battery is still fresh of charge it can apply the brakes for say 30 seconds. This would give time for the driver to exit and Marshall's to chock the wheels of a stationary car. It's evident the ferrari was still capable of applying brakes because you can see Carlos slide in for a brief moment to try to stop the car before succumbing to the flames and making his exit.
Kym Illmam said they put a wheel chocks and it rolled over it when he was there live on his you tube video describing the incident
I don’t think they should have a hand break but maybe a way to lock the breaks could be something that way this doesn’t happen. Like a on the bias a lock break settings or something
Can’t say anything about the Marshalls as they were somewhat prepared. A wedge to stop the car from rolling was placed on the front right wheel but the car rolled right over it as there was too much momentum. Carlos should have turned the wheel to the left so the car would stop on the barrier then jump out. That’s easy to say however since the engine literally blew up grind him and he was in a bit of a pickle lol. I do think however there should be an e brake. Remove the steering wheel, locks all four. Or press a button.
I think they could use a "handbrake" using the electric motor/generator from the wheels, as the cars harvest energy, they could use the same motor/generator to lock the wheels or even the motor using a magnetic shield... not that hard to implement too, incase of a failure such as that the system can automatically lock the wheels/motor
Good idea but it needs to be tested first. If this system malfunctions it could lead to severe consequences. Wheels suddenly locking at high speed or it might not even work at all in this situation if the electric system goes.
I saw the car roll over the wedge when I was watching the race I think the issue is the larger tires roll over the small wedge. I bet they haven't upgraded the size of the wheel chock since the redesign of the cars.
I have a content suggestion, how would f1 be without mercedez & redbull? How would that affect the audience and what can we expect from the teams etc? I dont know if you would read this but if you do maybe its something to give a thought ?
Ya know honestly, this to me was the scariest incident I've seen this year. Zhou crash was dramatic but even while watching it, I knew already the halo and roll hoop would keep him safe. With Carlos' incident, you can see a procedural and planning failure. This is foreseeable and even if it adds weight, some mechanism to lock the brake or tires SOMEHOW should be mandatory. Maybe disengaging the wheel should lock the rear dif
Turn the wheel so the car turns into the barrier. Car stops rolling, get out of car. It's not a difficult situation to sort out.
There was nothing scary about this incident. Carlos was, rightfully, trying to stop the car but he knew he had time to get out, the part that catched fire was not the fuel tank or the fuel lines, it was oil, probably from the turbo.
Admittedly, Carlos could have turn the wheel against the signs and be done with it, but god knows what was going on through his head at the time. Marshals need better training (a world of difference between the Monaco ones and Austria's) and bigger ledges lol.
I have to wonder if Carlos should have turned into the gravel trap because that should have made it more difficult for the car to roll away. That is likely why the marshals were unprepared how often do the cars stay off the gravel trap at that corner when going off.
What i heared was that the martial who went on track to put the fire out did so without beeing allowed to because it wasnt even declared safe yet. It seems it probably needs an investigation why that took so long.
I think the marshals did very well, the car rolling downhill was obviously the bigger threat than the fire. For Carlos it was scary but not terribly dangerous, his safety gear can take a lot more before he gets burned.
They don't need a separate handbrake system, just a way to latch the pedal brakes on. Plus the drivers should get some training so they turn the steering wheel fully towards the wall in this situation
I saw the car roll over the block. It only stopped because the back turned into the wall. I'd have thought that a suitably sized block would be immediately to hand for the marshalls to use for any type of car racing. Sometimes, even if a car has a handbrake, it can fail if certain things go wrong.
Definitely not the marshalls' fault, more that of the track owner/race organisation for not ensuring that proper equipment was there for that rare, but (if you've watched enough motorsports) reasonably predictable event.
i'm no engineer but would it not be quite simple to develop a lock pin that locks the wheels or shaft at the press of a button to tug of a lever. a simple latch that can be used to engage a pin that prevents a wheel from turning.
Why don't the track workers have some type of chock they can put behind the wheels. They make small fold up chocks they could carry with them.
You can actually see the wedge be placed under the tyre, the bbc f1 commentator spotted it live
The only thing in Carlos mind was "Do not cause a full SC or Charles will loose the race" that is why he was so concerned of the car rolling back
If you look at the replays yoy can clearly see a marshall placing a wedgr under the right front wheel only not straight thats why it rolled over the wedge and turned te wheels to the left making sainz car to roll back into the barriere but the marshall got the wedge under it right the second time
0:28 sketchy looking handbrake 🤣
The more important question should be: Why didn't Carlos steer the car to the left so that it would've rolled backeards into the barrier? Or why didn't Carlos drive the car into the gravel?
Everybody in western Europe that has a drivers liscense knows to steer the car towards the curb when parking their car. That way IF the brakes fail, it will automatically roll towards the curb and stop.
You mentioned locking the *rear* differential; are they four-wheel drive now?
The marshal did put a wedge under the car, the car simply rolled over the wedge. Carlos should've turned the wheel right away as well.
Whether or not the guy who claims to be a marshal is or not, you can clearly see that the car rolls over whatever the marshal placed under it when he bent down under the tyre. I think that this is much more a marshalling error either in equipment or skill than a problem with not having a handbrake, something that would annoy teams to no end like cameras do now.
We could clearly see that one marshal was trying to put a wedge behind the wheel, but the car pushed it to much down and drove over it. I also believe that the other marshal got an order to get a bigger extinguisher. What i have not seen is Carlos grabbing one and trying to put out his own flaming car.
It looked like he could have steered towards the wall and let it roll backwards into the wall. Of course it was a chaotic and scary moment so I don't blame him at all for not having the situational awareness to work that out assuming it was possible.
There should be an automatic mechanism which engages the brakes whenever the steering wheel is removed.
With regards to Carlos Sainz 'putting it in gear' to stop it rolling backwards...I'm sure he tried that but maybe the gear box had no gears at that stage or the computer interface had melted.
Well apparently there is a reason. They could build it into the regulations that handbrake is required and that’s just how it will be.
Or they could just allow drivers to leave the car in gear in situations like this
They should probably have an emergency stop thing which locks the brakes on
I think the drivers are not allowed to leave the car in gear, I believe that was said when Magnussen had a retirement this year and rolled back too.
my question was why didn't carlos turn right and make the car perpendicular ish to the hill and turn the wheel left before climbing out
I feel the team should have been telling him to crank the wheel to the left to wedge his car on the barriers
The thing that was put under the wheels was a pair of gloves I think lol
We can all say that there was some relatable moment from 2013…
There should be a button on the wheel where you can lock the brakes instead of a sepperate handbrake
POV carlos sainz Austria:
The wheelchocks used are too small clearly.
Use the wheelchocks for trucks instead.
I wonder why not to do what Jeremy Clarkson did with the Aston Martin Vulcan in The Grand Tour, where he forgot to put the car in gear and the car rolled backwards? Isn't the same thing on F1?
Yes but imagine an F1 car doing a handbrake turn
Monaco hairpin