Patriarchy In The Church | Courageous Conversations '21
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- An excerpt from the 2021 Courageous Conversations conference. Dr. Otis Moss III, Dr. Sarita Lyons, Dr. CJ Rhodes, & Dr. Cheryl Sanders, moderated by Yana Conner, discussed patriarchy in the church.
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Dr Rhodes " We generally teach women not to be seductresses, but we don't teach men not to be predators! Say that AGAIN! I say this ALL the time. There's rarely accountability for men.
Yeah socialisation of girls and boys is so skewed with these topics towards girls, we NEED TO TEACH the right things from the very start and the socialisation of boys needs alot of work. Alot.
Dr.Lyons is a blessing to the entire body!!!! A compassionate theologian, unashamed!!!! Wow
Dr. Sarita was on fire 🔥. This was a phenomenal discussion.
Thank you Dr. Lyons for staying true to the scriptures and not folding.
Yes!!!!!!!!
“Women get preached to their emotions and not their mind” -Dr. Sarita Lyons-😮💨
Yes! Single women are not just wives in waiting. We are valuable to the Kingdom, with or without a husband.
Ooooooo, Amen!🎉
One of the best, most intelligent conversations I’ve heard on this topic. What a group of brilliant minds. As a Christian negatively affected by patriarchal thinking I have been looking for answers to this problem for years. When I read what Jesus said I don’t find abuse toward women. But when I read Paul it’s different.
Thank you Dr. Lyons. We can’t let outside voices interpret scripture through the lens of feminism. Patriarchy should not be abusive but carried responsibility respect and honoring of spouse and children.
The problem with the 'responsibility' argument is that it lends to justifying male privilege. Women are treated as 'fragile' and infantilised. What might have been true in biblical times might also be a reflection of the socio-economic oppression of women; i.e. they HAD to be dependent on men because their worth and value was restricted to child rearing and nothing else (including earning a living). It's still the case in many parts of the world today. The 'responsibility' justification also speaks to the other side of patriarchy. The part that represses men; this undue burden to carry the full weight of responsibility when it should be shared, resulting the fear, anger and capitulation (through physical and/or mental illness or suicide) when they can't live up to this standard. We are all called to be responsible individuals and societies, regardless of gender. I agree with Dr Lyons but I feel she wants to have her cake and eat it. Her examples of patriarchy are on the extreme end whilst some of the things she claims might not necessarily be misogynistic etc (e.g. excluding women from ministry because the male leader is 'being faithful' to scripture) ARE so, just more subtle. Patriarchy is, as one of the male speakers said, a result of the fall. I don't believe it's ever justifiable or explained away, as Dr Lyons insinuates. There is also nothing wrong with bringing a discerning, feminist lens to the conversation, as she implies.
@@AcousticUplift what is male privilege?
I like Dr. Lyons' definition of patriarchy.
Dr. Sarita Lyons thank you for the response to 1 Tim. Many women fear to admit this passage. I disagree with other women who try to bring other passages which explicitly doesn't deal with the pastors and elders role in the context. Pastoral epistles is particularly for role in the church. We must not contradict the Holy Spirit with the scripture, if Holy Spirit inspired the pastoral letters then it is God's word.
I applause all the panels, I agree with all, except on 1 Tim.
Based upon Dr Lyon's statement, the 5 fold ministry of God's government on earth should be held by men only? (I know only Pastor and elders was mentioned- which is another problem- they are not the whole spiritual government)
And women are ministering not in the office or position but out of the gifts God has given which can be preaching, prophesying, teaching etc not just baking.
🙆♀️🙆♀️🙆♀️ the whole panel 🔥, I loved this this.
This is a needed conversation with the goal of seeing that neither Complementarianism nor Egalitarianism is heretical, white washed, or anti bible.
This is such a timely discussion .We live in a fallen world and the Bible needs to help us to excavate that brokeness and to rehabilitate the perfect creation including God's image bearers. Women and men are called to to nations and to preach the great Commission. We focus excessively on sexist , parochial interpretations of who can preach , while the world is dying around us.The harvest is plentiful,the workers are few:do we exclude women from the workers if that work includes pulpiteering?
Awesome conversations thank you so much for sharing this
Men have to be accountable for them selves. Men and women are equal but they are not the same. That’s where things get murky. Being not the same does not mean less than.
You cannot require biblical standards from women when you don’t embody that within your self.
Men like this I find them to be gross. It’s hypocrisy. I think women should minister to women not men. A woman cannot preach to a man.
This stuff is powerful
This was really powerful and so thought provoking. Within the belief of the trinity this exposed my mind to referring to God in gender specific roles. How limiting are we believing in God to think He is only a he. Within the trinity it is expressed God is all of us
1:07:32 Dr. Moss III's observation of the Church's orthodoxy of David's predatory and dysfunctional life informing on the orthopraxy of a dysfunctional patriarchy was lit 🔥!
Ephesians 5:21 'Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.' John 4:24 "For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth."
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I will have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Very true on the sexual harassment and abuse of women in the church and the double standards on the discipline pertaining to sexual misconduct as regards men and women. Women get the raw end And it brings to mind an incident where I defended a lady from being expelled from a. Church for refusing sexual advances from church elders in the church I called the church elders hypocrites and I threatened to expose them if they expelled the lady ,the church elders had created a false narrative to malign the character and integrity of the lady and went as so far as not to allow the lady's parents to have leadership positions in the church as punishment for the lady's refusal to give in to the sexual advances of the lady . the church leaders were more interested in protecting the reputation of the affected church leaders than the reputation of the church and the affected lady and I called them out for their hypocrisy and I also used the example of David and Bersheeba and the response of Nathan in how he rebuked David and from that time 2012 I have never attended church and this church belongs to a prominent worldwide denomination... On.women taking leadership roles as pastors and elders I support it 100% I believe women should take leadership roles as elders and pastors not just departmental leadership or preaching positions if women in the secular world can take leadership roles why not in the church Jesus was a revolutionary I think he would have allowed women to take pastoral and eldership roles. The church has adopted the patriarchal and patrilineal culture of the Jews . Paul was a product of his Jewish patriarchal background in his dismissive nature of having women in leadership roles and the bible is not complete in the knowledge of unknown revelations
Thank you Dr. Lyons for honoring God’s glory against these feminist talking points. You were the only person on that panel that rightfully handled the Word of God.
I thoroughly love and respected Dr. Lyons answers!!👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
If God can pour his holy spirit on both women and men to prophesy why he can't pour the same holy for women to have pastoral and eldership spiritual gifts
The church has adopted the patriarchal nature of the Jewish culture and this is relevant in the white church and society especially in the USA and it has clouded the need for the women to play a leadership role in the church and the black church has also the same notion. However in Africa we have societies or communities that are matrilineal and matriarchal where children belong to the mother and take their mother's surnames and women take leadership roles as chiefs, headwomen and sons can inherit leadership from their mother's side and a husband can build his home at his wife's place without any qualms and males have no problem with women taking leadership roles and there are also patriarchal societies where the role of the woman is magnified as a leader in the society and as the paternal aunt.. Now churches being products of their societies they usually adopt the patriarchal nature of the society they come from and have issues with women having leadership roles in the church and they use usually biblical verses to suppress women
wow, profound.
Thank you for sharing, truly
Katherine Bushnell “Gods word to women” free online, written 1923, did a whole research on matriarchal society before patriarchy. When God said a man leaves his mother and father and cleaves to his wife , he is leaving his family and his people and cleaving to her and her people. for the woman’s protection. Then men started stealing wives , with polygamy. And reversed it.
This talk was fire!!!!
From my perspective, the confusion and chaos seems to stem from humanity doing it their own way, not necessarily God’s way. That cake is never going to turn out right, as long as we’re adding and taking away from what’s supposed to be an award winning recipe.
Honestly, finger pointing is easy, but how far does it get us. Begging villains to assume heroic and empathetic roles always puzzles me. However, wanting to belong is a criminal behavior that most chose to overlook although it gives life to the very things we profess opposition for.
When the ball is in your court, how you function in those moments matter most. What you do when you have the opportunity to responsibly lead should be each person’s primary focus. In my opinion, when you are busy building, it’s hard to get caught up in all of the noises one might hear along the journey.
We can all do better…PERIOD!!!
It’s also time for the world to see a much better representation of what we call authentic worship.
Anyways, that’s the end of my 2cents and I love you and there’s nothing you can do about it…✌🏾
I cannot believe yall have not talked about Proverbs 8....the whole chapter. That scripture speaks to patriarchy hands down!!!
Shalom beautiful people of The Most High God and many blessings to you all and to your beautiful families.
I appreciate this conversation. I also appreciate how everyone was able to passionately uncover the problems and issues at hand. This unveils even the more how The Bible has been mishandled in the building of The LORD's Church and Body.
Because the original construct of a true patriarchy moves in alignment with the blueprint of God's breath, His Word.
The true construct of patriarchy is submitted to the will of The Father. Patriarchy is about the establishment of God's kingdom lineage, starting first with the establishing of the Hebrew people.
The authenticity of this patriarchy starts with Abraham in Genesis 12 and it is also seen being established in Genesis 17.
Patriarchy in the Church is suppose to be in alignment with what The Father was building through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
These three men were chosen by The LORD to be the forerunners of this particular patriarchy. They were chosen for the establishing of God's people and for the establishing of the bloodline that our beautiful Lord and Messiah Jesus Christ would be born through and into.
What has been going on in the Church is not reflecting what The LORD God has been establishing in His Word regarding His people. As we can see, the enemy satan was given access to come into this structure and take certain people off the path that God established, so a false structure could be constructed in the Body of Christ, which is unveiled in some of the issues that you all expose in this conversation. True patriarchy does not take on the serpent's nature and mishandle God's people, especially women. We will not see The LORD mishandling women in scripture. And we will not see Him obstructing women from being used by Him either. Without women there would not be any real form of patriarchy or any real form of a royal priesthood and kingdom lineage. The Father used women to add decor, grace, and beauty to what He was building in this patriarchy. And what He built is holy, pure, and consecrated and no one in The Church has the right to dishonor and violate what Jesus Christ and The Godhead has built within this foundation of the patriarchy.
And I do have to bring up one thing. King David was not a sexual predator. If King David were to be identified by The LORD as a sexual predator, then this would have gotten in the way of The LORD and David having an authentic relationship and covenant. Because a sexual predator is someone who is abusive and perverted. And God hates perversion. He would not have been able to establish a genuine relationship with David if he was a sexual predator, and neither would The Father have allowed Jesus to come through this bloodline. David loved women. A sexual predator does not know how to love. David was a man after God's heart. A sexual predator is absent of demonstrating that kind of love towards The LORD. Sexual predatory behavior moves under a toxicity that abuses authority, power, leadership, and rulership. And David did not move like that. He did have issues and challenges with his flesh but not to a point where it took him in the place of embracing sexual predatory behavior. King David was more than able to still stand in a position that was integral before The LORD. He did what it took to protect God's people and he did what it took to help take care of God's people. He also did what it took to help protect what The LORD was building through the legacy He was establishing within the bloodlines he created within the patriarchy He established through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel). Shalom
I think Dr Otis Moss is reading his own meaning into the story of the issue with the flow of blood. I think if you can do that with that text then he shouldn't have a problem with the Roman catholic view of Mary. Because I do think the church has been really been thinking through the issue of the woman deeply. If you study roman catholicism's view of Mary you can see the 'white church' think through that. I definitely agree with Dr Sarita Lyons views on this whole conversations. This is definitely a good conversation
"Women outnumber the men because men won't put up with the alpha male stuff"..........I don't think this is the reason women outnumber men in the church.
Correct. Jesus Christ uplifted women while he was on Earth. We love God because he loved us first.
Women are not, “Comfortable” With the ‘Alpha male’ trope, we have been socialized into falling in line with a certain hierarchy. Also, we are team players for the most part who think communally within our specific tribe. There are head females of course but everyone isn’t fighting for her place.
I agree, I think most men are confused as to what male leadership really look like biblically. It’s like the blind leading the blind. Half of them don’t even read, pray, or congregate, but they desire the benefits of it.
Patriarchy means father, no negative connotations , God Bless a father isn’t the face of superiority , but of a protector , when does God force us to love him when does he force us to serve him where does he force us to obey him ?????He guides us Revelations 2:26 kjv a Shepherd loves his sheep he protects them
This was panel stacked in favor of egalitarianism & feminism. Only Dr Lyons gave some semblance of balance. Which is unfortunate because this could have been a really fruitful conversation if both views were allowed equal time. How courageous is a conversation if you are reluctant to converse with the better talking points of the conservative view?
A bunch of "educated" people making word salads trying to show how smart they are when all I received was women are oppressed and men are failures across the board. It's a wrap for black folk until tmh comes back and as far as the black Church.....screw em.
Dr. Lyons is the only person on the panel that stayed true to scripture. Every other panelist just continued to be echo chambers and spew toxic talking points. Thank you for having integrity Dr. Lyons. As far as Dr. Sanders, after hearing her talk and express and make the most egregious claims, i realize just because its “Dr.” In front of your name doesn’t mean anything all all.
I would say she was the worst but there were 2 WEAK "men" up there also and that takes the cake for me. A huge reason for the current state of the black Church.
It’s ok for women to have our own spaces without men entrenching on that. We have a right as women to guard our own spaces while on the leadership of men.
*under
The pastor who called David a sexual predator at 1:08 mark called a spade a spade.
This discussion is necessary. Although this particular panel was very bias in approaching the ideas and lacked dichotomy.
Very very bias and one sided.
Nothing reveals how important roles are than a crisis.
Say that!
I appreciate the way Dr. Lyons focuses on the Bible and not the social and psychological norms of the world. God chose to make men the patriarchs of Christianity. It’s amazing that the men on the panel are not going to the scriptures, but instead buying into the worldly feminist agenda……… It seems that Dr. Lyons is the only one using proper exegesis……. Dr. Sanders exegesis’ is questionable, she’s seems to be quite liberal. God is sovereign, if he wanted women to be pastors in the early church, he would have. You either believe the word or God is inspired or not. Both roles of men and women are important, they are just different……..
There are neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free- all are one in Christ Jesus. If you're drowning, it doesn't matter who throws you the rope- Rheinhardt Bonnke, lifelong, continent changing evangelist to Africa.
What is the name of the sister in the red blazer?
Two weak brothers not standing on the authoritative Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit of promise.
This was laughable just an echo chamber of bs thank God for Dr Sarita Lyons
Wow dude butchered the story about the woman with the issue of blood! SMH! And prior to that he butchered the longest conversation. Reaching trying to sound deep. He hung out with 12 men for. 3.5 years. Come on bro!
Why don't Christians just write a new bible and rock with it
Last dr made statement said it best from a women. God let know His gender talking about Heavenly Father n bride of Christ. At end of day, does it matter, time for Church!!
The Lord also told Mary to go tell the disciples that he had risen.
...and what's your point?
@@w619hunt40 that God valued her enough
The sky is blue....
I do not like the word "privilege". I feel like it's a word we have used to created a divide. How would we even begin to defined the word privilege? You see the word used across many genres of discussion. How does one have privilege and the other does not if we are all created by the same God? Who gives privilege and denies privilege? Is it biblical?
Could it be that you feel attacked by the privilege you hold but feel you don’t have?
You don't have to like the word. It exists. Privilege is usually given by those in power.
You need a dictionary, a bible, the spirit of tmh and lastly some common sense.
I feel like the older lady in red tried to play someone else on the panel. I don’t like that passive aggressive approach. That could just be me.
You can tell that the men did not want to offend the women, but GOD is Patriarchal. You can't sugar coat it to appease anyone. He has a set of rules and structure.
What christian religion are they???😔
Guess what helpmate means in the original text in the Bible? Guess? Sit down. It means ' Rescuer'. Yes, helpmate means 'Rescuer' in the original text.
Women should only minister to other women. Most churches have this . Men need other men to lead them.
I wonder why God created man first, and then created woman out of the man, and then later scripture says that woman was made for the man not man for the woman. I wonder why God chose a man when His people cried for a king. I wonder why God sent a Son instead of a Daughter. I wonder why He chose 12 men to be His disciples. I wonder why He chose men (the apostles) to sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes, this in which isn’t talking about this life on earth which debunks the whole “patriarchy is an effect of the fall”. And even if u look at the consequences of the fall in Genesis 3 that God handed out you’d see how man was held more responsible than the woman. There is a case for being responsible with patriarchy, not just to make our female counterparts feel accepted or equal, but because GOD holds us to a standard that doesn’t cause us to abuse our authority but to handle it responsibly for the protection and well being of society. He went to the man first and dealt with the man last.
@@jonathanmonroe1833 yea bro, I mean He used a man to fix the whole problem with humanity. He tells us to dwell with our women according to knowledge, honoring them as the WEAKER vessel. It says Adam was not deceived but the woman was. I can go on and on but all it’ll do is make the women start hating the Bible and then saying things like “well it was written and/or translated by men who benefitted from a patriarchal society.” 😒. We either believe the scriptures or we don’t. God Himself set up order and for a reason. 🤷🏾♂️
Trying to quantify Gods use of men in history still doesn’t negate the points being made about men using this position selfishly and irresponsibly. They are not doing it Gods way but they’re way yet still trying to claim Godly headship.
And helpmate means Rescuer in the original text. Look it up:). Rescuer, that's right!
Verses>>James 1:27 KJV( Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To Visit the fatherless and widows in their Affliction, and to Keep himself unspotted from the world.) Folks, Christianity is not found as a word in the Bible. Furthermore, Christ Never told anyone to build him a temple. Man always add and confuses yet solves nothing.. 😂
Acts 7:48 KJV
Saying there is white privilege is like saying there's Italian privilege in Italy. And that's ridiculous. When I was in Haiti, I didn't say there was black privilege. I expected their culture to reflect the majority and also found pockets of 'other' culture. It was beautiful and I wasn't offended, nor a victim. culture. They are majority black and their culture should permeate most of society. Just like many parts of Africa.
And when my relatives fought to free the slaves, my white privilege was all over that battlefield. You're welcome.
👏🏾
There was only 1 person who brought anything to this panel. It was however a glaring example of why men aren't to follow, submit, or take council from females.
Many men would do well to do so. Oh, the stories I can tell, of men who listened to the privileged WISDOM God gave their wives, mothers and susters, they'll tell you how they were spared so much trouble, financial loss and ruin.
Foolishness and the itching ears are being scratched.
Please show me in the Bible that all men/women are equal please. And I’ll show you the hierarchy of Gods Kingdom and the church that people don’t talk about
Psst, Jesus doesn't have a black church. Jesus has His one true Church and that's made up of all Christians. You're segregating yourself as if you're special. You're not. All answers to problems, no matter the culture, are the same- Jesus Christ. I am a sister in Christ, and I speak truth. Wake up. It's not about politics, it's about the Kingdom of Heaven. It's about Jesus.
Many don't know that Yahweh had a consort but religion has made the feminine aspect of the divine "evil". Masculine and feminine gives life in all things including the God and Goddess. The family...the tetragrammaton... Y(masculine) H (feminine) W (masculine) H (feminine).
God never said woman and men were equal
When we miss the fact that this Bible is the history, culture, and spiritual practices of a single family, we miss it. You can’t take our history and try to make it fit all people by making it a religion. I did my genealogy and traced my family tree. I’m Lemba 5.3 generations. Those people are biological LEVITES. But my grandmother always told me our family belonged to the tribe of LEVI. When you know that, the teaching/Torah will become honorable to you and you won’t keep harping on New Testament as if it is the pinnacle of our spirituality. we have to stop trying to practice church like the “fathers of the church” and get back to the culture that we were robbed of. Let’s take care of home first
I think theological interpretations must be taken as archetypical guidance and anthropological & sociological interpretations as application. The language of the application spheres lacks the wisdom to properly apply timeless values. At the same time, archetypical guidance necessarily lacks nuanced specifics giving freedom to societies to interpret the scripture in the best interest of their societies. That said. there is a space for men to operate within their G-d-Ordained assignments as providers and protectors of the society that is the church. Equally, there is space for women to operate in their G-d ordained assignments. Also, what must be challenged is the conflation of Patriarchy with toxic masculinity. If we are not careful, we will create a patriphobic society whose men will be raised to lack decisiveness, responsibility, and accountability (weak men).
I think you missed the point my dear theologian who decides what is a gender specific God ordained assignment? Patriarchy has brainwashed you into believing women are not given the God ordained gift to lead outside of what society has deemed to be there archetypal roles
@@asemibase3697 Quite the opposite, Queen. I am in no position to declare what a woman’s God Ordained assignment is. Western society has had thousands of years to dialogue our role, even in the churches . Women should have the same space to biblically dialogue about their role in the kingdom and men listen until through dialectic we arrive at a role definition we can all live with.
peace, brother. is there a reason for this spelling: G-d? i've never seen that before.
also, you indicated that men's assignment is to be providers and protectors of/in the church. but you left the assignment of women slightly a mystery. can you expound upon that?
laatly, i felt that dr. lyons raised the point that just because some denominations / doctrinal interpretations are patriarchal, that doesn't make them toxic. so i think she touched on your point but i do wish that was teased out a bit more.
There is indeed a difference in patriarchy and toxic masculinity...
@@k.h.a.l.i.l. G-d is a written expression of his name which respects His Holiness. Rabbis were concerned that if His name was casually written, it could be wadded up and thrown away, effectively destroying His Nam. Thus, they decided to remove the vowel from the word out of respect for His Holiness.
The Genesis account of creation gives us G-d’s plan for man. He gave man dominion. Such dominion made him the provider and protector of all he stewards. The role of men does not change even though his environment does. Thus the intensity with which he might execute his role may adjust. Again, I think women should speak about women’s roles. However, Dr. Myles Monroe has done some pivotal work on the subject of biblical manhood.
How you people aren't so tired of talking race, gender, etc.. is bewildering.
In a sense, they are just a reflection of the culture/society around them.
you show up to a conversation on gender bewildered by why ppl aren't tired of talking about it? that's fascinating. i honestly don't understand the allure of drinking, so i tend not to go to bars and liquor stores. see where i'm going with this?
No, we aren't. That's what critical thinking skills are for-expannding your world view beyond the mirror of your own experiences, but go off.
@@k.h.a.l.i.l. Your comment was flawless. Eloquently stated and equally potent.
There's a lot of Truma and reactionary interpretation going on.
“Women get preached to their emotions and not their mind”. This is not the fault of the preacher anywhere near as much as it is the fault of the hearer. One has to be spiritually discerned to know when something is spiritual and when something is carnal. Let’s be real most women fancy getting their emotions preached to, and most of that most don’t even know that this is what’s happening. The ratio of women to men in church these days is an effect of these emotional teaching and preaching styles. 🤷🏾♂️
Look at the curse by God on women in General 3 16.
The curses are over
Look at the curse on men. Men want woman to suffer the curses of both men and women as well as whatever horrible thing men want to do to them
Shame