Lever Activated Regen Braking, projects to make variable regen more user friendly.
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- This is a look at variable regen braking and two projects that aim to give it a more natural feel. If you are interested in what you see in the video you are welcome to take part in our discord community. highvoltagekit...
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Thanks for sharing this! Good to see people openly sharing shuch wouderful ideas 💡
Appreciate it Rick, cheers
Another idea for variable regen would be to have a bidirectional Twist Throttle.
Basically it is a twist throttle with a spring loaded center position, it work like a regular twist throttle, but if you twist the throttle upward pass the center position, it activate the variable regen. I believe the Grin motor controllers (Phaserunner, Baserunner ...) are already mapped for this type of system.
I'm pretty sure such throttles exist, but have not found any yet.
(Basically you could have a throttle with two hall sensors and magnets, would only require 4 wires instead of the 3 wires throttle commonly available, 5V, Gnd and 2 signals for the hall sensors. This would do the same as a regular twist throttle on the right side and a second variable thumb throttle for regen braking on the left side like it is available currently.
The brake levers sensors could be for motor cut off only for safety...
Anyhow, keep up the good work.
Cheers
Dan
Hey Dan, there are are a few out there I saw one recently you can get on ALI Express. The issues are that they have a very narrow band of activation on the regen side, I think it was only two volts. Hopefully that will improve in the future because it would be quite a fluid setup.
they allready make these but are quite hard to find
Great video! I set up variable regen braking on my Sabvoton/Cromotor Greyborg some years ago. It has been fantastic. Feels like a controllable parachute, since the brake lever setup is a displacement sensor rather than a force sensor, but one gets used to it quickly. I used a cable type brake lever and installed a linear hall sensor and magnet internal to the lever as the Sabvoton needs both a switch closure and a variable voltage signal.
Sounds like a great solution. Interesting information on the sabovoton setup. I like the parachute apology. I'll take you word for it feeling similar hope to not experience one.
Good to see you in vids!!!
Cheers mate, thanks for giving me a push!
@@HighVoltageKits all you brother ❤
I did this about 6 years ago using an off the shelf variable voltage hall sensor just stuck to the brake housing and a magnet on the lever and my Adaptto controller on my Fighter. Worked great!
That's great to know! So you had variable with this or was it just on off activation?
@@HighVoltageKits The Adaptto had completely variable regen. It even let you plot a graph/curve to your liking. I managed to tune mine so you could not even tell/feel it transitioning from regen to physical brakes. Anyway, I just wanted to throw it out there that this is completely solvable with ghetto tech if the controller supports it. :)
Much appreciated. Thank you. Always a way right.
You could use a pressure transducer on the front or rear brake line if the brakes are hydraulic. Just need to find one with the right voltage/pressure range.
That's very true. I will keep an eye out for something
I don’t know how far along this is now, but on the topic of the magnet glue method being a risk, you could maybe make a 3d print that would cup around the screw on the break that would then have a space to slide the magnet into, it would then be easy to put a dollop of super glue in this compartment and with walls surrounding most of the magnet and a lip on the top of the magnet it wouldn’t have nearly as high of a chance of falling off.
Not too much further. Time has been of a premium lately. Appreciate your tips and they will be considered. Good ideas
high we discovered we can get an oil pressure sensor that fits into the hydralic brake lever they are 3 wire and vork on 5 volts for memory we used 500kpa we join 2 sets of levers together the top one is normal brake and bottom is variable we had to use different length levers so can use them separately and still use together,the bottom lever is turned upside down and new longer shaft goes through both levers the sensors can still be used on a single lever via use of a T joiner
That’s awesome! Great job
Interesting video (bad audio quality though). My setup is a 1500w bbshd on a regular mtb with a tag-along trike rear axle/seat/pedals for my son. Due to the added weight, I would like to run a DD hub motor on the mtb rear wheel to take advantage of regen. I've seen Grins videos that talk through a similar setup. Some ideas that I'm currently researching are: 1) Capacitors to smooth the current into the battery, and/or 2) Using a wind turbine controller so that any excess energy, over a set threshold, is diveted to a resistive dump load rather than heating/stressing the batteries. I'm using x4 12v 30ah Lipo4 to get 48v and some decent range.
Yeah the audio gets compressed to get rid of the fan noise. I need a better computer setup lol! Good idea with the load. Wonder if there is some use you can get out of it. Most good controllers with regen though will only permit a set percentage that is safe to go back to the cells. The other thing is to make sure the cell specification is sufficient to allow the safe operation like this.
Ha i got you to set up a regen brake linear potentiometer for me last year, you know if you want to keep the brakes there what about splicing in a hydrolic sensor ? The more pressure the more regen and the hydrolics would still be in place, no need to glue in a magnet !
That's a good idea. Its worth looking into although it might take some configuring depending on the kind of signal and voltages that it operates on.
I was thinking this(hydraulic pressure sensor) or an optocoupler that would T into the wiring for the brake sensor
hi cap! glad to see i'm not the only one thinking about this subject.
to this moment i split my ideas into three categories:
- cable actuated, like the one you showed. i was thinking of using an arduino with a spring loaded potentiometer and a thin steel cable run to the lever of the brake. by giving more travel to the lever, you could regulate the regen with the initial travel of such and by the time you engaged full regen you would start biting on the actual brakes.
- flow sensor (magura had an on/off switch as brake cutt off some time ago), but i don't think it would be a conceivable option, given that you would need a very accurate (and so, expensive) flow meter in order to have a reliable reading.
- full blown electro actuated brakes, like the ones in modern hybrid/elctric cars. this would be quite easy to do on a real motorbike, intended with motorcycle brakes, where the lever wouldn't actually be connected directly to the brakes but instead to a small board that would initially activate and regulate the regen and then engage both regen and mechanical brakes.
another good idea would be to take a look at the brake lever found on most cheap electric scooters (like the xiaomi i.e.), since those have both mechanical brakes and variable regen controlled by the same lever. although i don't know whether they use an hall/magnetic sensor or something like rio's one.
general suggestion regarding rio's method: you could replace that huge assembly with a 3d printed wheel with a spring mechanism inside, mounted on a thumb throttle. just replace the actual lever with the 3d printed wheel, so you could have the same hall sensor in a compact and small form factor (maybe you would need an arduino or something to give out a cleaner looking signal for the controller).
Thanks for the input. There are many ways to skin this cat. I think the one that will be viable will be the one that proves to be the most reliable and durable. Right now the focus is on making something that will work with the controllers people are using. So the ASI ones as well as VESC based will allow this to be the case.
@@HighVoltageKits the vesc proves to be an incredible platform, the amount of customization you can achieve is endless. about the asi, it could be a bit more selective regarding the input it requires to correctly function. hopefully we can work something out, it would be something that a lot of people would be interested in. perhaps a plug&play kit for different brake brands would be something to work on.
Yeah, we can easily use any of the brake options with the things that we make.
Will use that to mimic a clutch, wired after the throttle signal
Great progress in all areas love your content. Variable Regen is the only way I would want to use it. The paddle throttle integrated into the lever with on off switch would be most intuitive choice off road.
Your lever kit conversion has merit too! So that does put a hub motor in the mix.
What next ABS and Regen?
Thanks so much. I'll probably be using a paddle style on my next project. Or maybe something lever integrated. I'm still waiting to hear on test results. Traction control I think could be achieved or launch control. 🤔 I have a neat throttle project being cooked up actually..Hopefully drop in a few months. Cheers
I love option 2
It’s my favourite
I miss my regen throttle it was so handy going down hills and slowing my light bee down. When I wanted to stop real fast I use the front brake and the regen. If I use all 3 brakes it woukd instantly lock up.
Cool. Appreciate feedback from a guy who knows! Cheers
I really want this feature 🥰🥰🥰
Cheers!
In the demonstration of utilizing a magnetic sensor, turning both the magnet and the sensor 180°, would create a much more linear path of movement. Plus adding a pivot point for the magnet or the sensor would offset the rotation of the lever, to make the path completely linear.
Since magnet and cable activation, are already being utilized as a motor cutoff mechanism. It seems like a logical starting point as a regen mechanism. But since variable regen is the ultimate goal, a pressure sensor that could read variations in brake fluid pressures has distinct advantages? Including it would allow the sensor to be near the motor, in a parallel configuration.
i do have some push back in terms of variable regen always being better than binary regen. And the lack of a freewheel has some downsides too. But it doesn't matter until the technology reaches a point of maturation where it's being utilized enough to talk about the trade-offs. In other words thanks for pushing the technology forward. If you want any more of my two cents on the subject matter I'll be happy to give it.
Those are some really good thoughts with the linear path for the sensor. I need to revisit this in the reasonably near future. I would definitely be happy to get your input in the future. GRIN technologies have some good stuff with regen as well. The bit I like about the variable is that its up to the rider to engage it. Whereas on the automatic ones as soon as you let go the throttle it engages so coasting is not possible. You can also have it activate via a switch however the issue then can be its so strong that it can lock a rear wheel on things like a Sur Ron. Which can also be tuned with settings. Its definitely not as simple as I first thought it would be! Cheers
@@HighVoltageKits That is ironic, since Justin from GRIN Technologies has been trying to get bicycle brake manufacturers, such as Tektro to incorporate this type of variable regen functionality for over a decade. But they told him that the demand won't be sufficient to make it economically viable. So it's more about convincing the bean counters than a technical issue.
So for the time being there is definitely a niche in the market for this type of product.
But for hydraulic brakes a pressure sensor transducer still seems to be the more optimal option. Good luck with the project. I look forward to the next progress report.
I've no experience with ⚡ bikes yet but for pedal bikes that only deliver assistance when pedaled I don't see the need for a throttle. In any case, the rear brake lever can also be the throttle. All the way open is full torque, all the way squeezed is full brake & the path to both ends uses a position sensitive combination of regen & friction braking. A single lever can perform multiple functions, pushing, pulling, sensing etc. all in one stroke. Simplification should always be the goal with no compromise in functionality or performance & ⚡ motors enable that. It's just a matter of adapting to better ways.
Its an interesting idea. Not one I had considered for sure. I'm all for simplicity of use as well as construction. One of the reasons for regen on a lever is its not very intuitive for people to get used to the reverse throttle. I wonder if having the throttle on a brake lever would have a similar effect.
Great idea, I hope this works out.
What about a part on the brake lever that you squeeze with your index finger (whilst your fingers have moved onto the brake lever ready to brake) that houses the sensor at one end and the magnet at the other seperated by a spring, which is fully enclosed, the action of pressing pushed the magnet closer to the sensor and you would have to squeeze hard to lock up the wheel.
Of course the on / off would have to be reversed on the magnet system you have shown, if that is possible at all
Cheers Nick, you can reverse the signal so that would be quite a clever way of doing things.
@@HighVoltageKits It would be small, slightly less than the size of a dice, the magnet or spring could not fall out so there is a good amount of safety. There would be a bit of experimenting how close to the brake lever fulcrum to mount it
For sure. Will be a fun modeling project!
What cable did they use with the throttle box? I'm trying to build regen brake lever. I'm going to use a stunt bike clutch lever and old stock sur ron throttle box. But I'm having trouble finding a cable that will work with this. It's a weird cable with the same ends.
Shoot me an email and I can send you photos of what I have. I can probably sent you a cable box as I have a bunch of them. I think I was going to splice something on to work with a lever.
John@highvoltagekits.com
Love it! You building what I've been saying needs to be done. I have a longboard with regen on a thumb dial. It's perfect. I'd be ok w it activating w a brake light switch. But being able to adjust the force it applies would be invaluable. Just a simple thumb dial. Is what type Regen is fardriver controller? Could I add a thumb dial?
You could add a thumb dial. You would need some way to reset it back to neutral though. I think thats why most people use the throttle type. Hopefully will get an update on this project.
Hey Guys. I like the option 2. I plan to use it on my e-ATV which runs using 2 BAC2000 controllers. Can I get #2 samples to test?
Best join our Discord and I will link you with the guy doing the electrical part. The link is in the description.
Excellent.
Can you tell me what signal is sent for the variable regen? I know throttle is between 0.8v and 4.5v normally.
But I haven’t found anything on the regen signal?
You put a throttle on an input signal and use it modulate in the same range as a throttle.
A thumb throttle on the LHS used like a "flappy paddle regen" that's independent of brakes and throttle is easy enough, surely?
Edit: And it has built in variability capacity.
You can definitely use this and many do instead of a twist throttle.
If controller has hi and l level brake connections what wires from the throttle go where?
Red/blk/wht throttle wires
Generally, the red will be 5 volt the black will ground and white the signal. You need to match those to the controller. I presume you are wiring regen brakes? Discord might be a better place for this as you can post more photos etc. The link is in the description.
Interested in this.
Awesome. You are welcome on our Discord
Hi mate, do you have any experience setting up sabvoton controllers?
I am unable to get it to pair to my crystalite motor. The hall test will never complete.
Although it runs fine with an ASI BAC 800.
Any ideas would be super helpful as I'm all out of them.. Thanks
I don't. This is a question for on discord as it will get seen by many more people.
@@HighVoltageKits I see what do you have any discord channel recommendations for that?
Yeah. There is a sabovoton channel. Under controllers
@@HighVoltageKits Sorry for being a pain, i cant seem to find that channel. You wouldn't happen to have a link? Thanks
What's your discord name. I'll link you to it.
The charge rate of the battery is too low for regen add much to the range.
Grin have some interesting data on it. They reckoned 5-8 in the city start and stop riding. It's not huge though, and depends on the system setup. Most people like it to save on brakes.
@@HighVoltageKits Yes, it's good for braking but if you calculate the actual charge that gets into the battery, based on the time braking, it would be miniscule. Not worth the added cost and complexity. It might also contribute to motor heat.
I only run geared hubs 🙁
There are geared hubs out there that do not have a freewheel. Grin tech makes one.
@@HighVoltageKits yes, ive seen the prices as well 😂
Grin tech also posted a DIY freewheel locking option, which enables regen capabilities.
For those cheap to buy one of their regen capable geared hubs.😂 😂 😂
Hmmm debatable i see regen as a cancer on batteries due to the added heat and current surge in..Prefer to take the approach of a larger battery instead all day long. questionable safety too given its in 2 wheels and without a stability control system too. Would never consider regen on a bike and would be turning it down as low as possible (or off if possible) ALL DAY LONG!
I think it depends on how its done and the quality of the components involved. There is some good stuff on the Grin channel on the viability of regen.
@@HighVoltageKits hhmmmm big no no in my eyes other than say the likes of long distance trains/trucks/buses etc where real time profits cater for potential battery stresses and so on. 2 wheels an absolute no no from any angle.
I see the main advantage only to be not having a rear brake, and stability of chassis from engine braking/drag after coming off from full power loads i wouldn't think there would be enough weight/energy on a bike to make a real difference in range.
@@monkeymagic4555 I've got an Electric Motion Escape R with progressive regen braking and it works a treat, much better than the regular rear foot brake that the bike also has. It does also recharge the battery by a few percent on steep descents but that's not the main point of it. I wish my Talaria also had that instead of fixed (adjustable) regen braking.