First, thank you for the comment. Always appreciated even if I may take issue with it. Truly, welcome the varying perspectives. Anyhoo... my response - Rebbie here - another of the channel creator people (I'm in the intro). I have to heartily disagree with you about how aggression feels. It is not pretty to admit this, but feeling anger and sometimes acting on via aggression FEELS cohering. The impact isn't typically favorable on the recipients or ultimately myself. But man, is it seductive to feel justified and righteous in my position/pov, so much so that I am going to tirade about it.
This editing is definitely too much. Toning it down would be better. I like to focus on what the person is saying, and it's hard to do that with such a hyperactive editing. More Dr. Frank Yeomans, however, is always welcome. This is a wise man.
I love your videos Rebbie (as a regular human and as a clinical psychologist who works with clients with BPD). The editing in the first half of the video is a bit too much and I found myself having to look away and just listen because it was too distracting. Love the editing in all your other videos though. Thanks again for all your awesome work in this space!
Yeah, quite distracting, the other videos look better and are more pleasant to watch. But the conversation itself, it's one of the best on this channel (and it has many great videos).
A healthy observing ego is not only the antidote to impulsivity, but also neutralizes the other extreme of overanalysis (or paralysis of analysis), which can happen when one over values the process of thinking before one acts.
@devonport3157 As with so many things in life, there's 2 opposite extremes and a balanced middle (dialectics). So, in this case, there's not enough thinking or evaluating on one side (impulsivity), and too much thinking (overanalysis) on the other. It takes a healthy observing ego to find the proper balance between thinking vs acting on feelings and impulses. I think it takes other things as well, like self-discipline, and that also needs to be balanced.
I worked with Dr. Yeomans at NY Hospital years ago. I am thrilled to have found him here on RUclips. He is such a kind, generous and knowledgeable person. He ran the Psychoanalytic Borderline Unit there. I’m so grateful for the time I spent with his expertise. These videos are Gold!
To me this makes complete sense, I have been going through this aggression toward those "others" who are devaluing but although I am starting to wake up to it in myself, I am still struggling to step back and see it from their perspective. It is extremely easy to dump that aggression and devalue the other and then tell yourself that was justified retribution. Then there is a part of you that says look at what you are becoming. You are no better than they are. There is nothing good within you at all.
I'm better than "them". Never acted with malicious intentions. There was anger. Yes But there wasn't a behavior with intention to destroy "them". That's the difference and I can be proud of it. Some people fight those drives and thoughts instead of acting and making excuses. What worries me is how many psychologists assume that everyone is acting on those drives. Seriously it scares me.
Serial killers, I think, do hate themselves, it's just not conscious most of the time. What comes to mind right away on this is the observation that I forget which police detective made about these types of people, which is that they often want to confess, as long as they feel like they're doing that with someone who understands their point of view. There's something inside themselves that feels self-hate, guilt, and all the rest, but it's so deeply buried in the unconscious that it's practically inaccessible. It shows itself, though, in the seemingly odd tendency toward self-destructiveness that many of these people have. Again, if you listen to Don Carveth's talks, especially about narcissism, where he talks about how narcissistic people live in constant flight from a savage, primitive, persecutory superego, this becomes clearer. The serial killer projects that murderousness outward, and part of them will also feel guilt about that, often to quite an extreme degree that they're not aware of. (I am inferring somwhat from Carveth's words but I don't think it's that much of a stretch.) Carveth also usefully distinguishes conscience from superego as a separate mental structure, which helps clarify these issues. Yeomans and Kernberg and most others seem to follow James Strachey's idea of superego modification rather than arguing for the need for demolition of the superego as Freud, Ferenczi, and others argued for. Strachey's position on this ended up winning out, but it's probably worth reconsidering that victory.
I really appreciate what he said about activists and the dangers of polarized positions. Younger people are often lacking in critical thinking skills including the ability to do basic research. They are primed to be very emotionally reactive and thus easily manipulated.
This is a fantastic conversation. Dr. Yeomans just described one of my friends perfectly. He seems anger/vindictiveness/vengeance in others (even when it isn't there), but he never sees it in himself. Everything that is uncomfortable is externally driven. Everything he hates is manifest in himself and his actions; but he is completely unable to see it or acknowledge it. Even when it is acknowledged, he always feels completely justified. Every once in a while, he is able to get himself into that "depressive" state; but he can never stay there for long. Many of his social media posts are about "true friends" or about removing "unsupportive" friends from his life. Sadly, I've tried to point out his inconsistencies; but those conversation have gone no where... except seeing me as the unsupportive friend.
Thanks for the comment and happy to hear this is relevant to your life. This way of seeing the world (and the self) is unfortunately super common (and super destructive). That's why we want to get this info out there so bad.. so people can begin to recognize it for what it is.
@@BorderlinerNotes It describes someone I know terribly well too and I agree that the info is super important and not nearly enough talked about. A while ago, I went to Foyles, London's best and biggest bookshop, and trawled the psychology and psychotherapy sections for books on anger and/or aggression. Not one title referred to either of these things (though I did eventually find some useful material in 'Gestalt Therapy' by Perls, Hefferline and Goodman, and in Hilary Jacobs Hendell's 'It's Not Always Depression.')
This. I am just now understanding this concept. I thought that I was surrounded by cruel stupid disloyal people. Many of the people I in my life live in my mind as every negative thing they've done or said around me so I spent alot of my interactions with them trying to fix and or berate them for those flaws. My aggression was seen as a protective measure against further verbal or emotional abuse. To the point of seeing nearly everything anyone does as being bad in some way. In turn I lived in a perpetual state of anxiety trying to be perfect and not like them. Id crumble from the constant pressure and fall into a depressive state. It was jarring as hell when the paradigm shift happened through therapy. My heart goes out to you and your friend. Even if he doesn't realize it right now , you are indeed a good friend to him. Sending him links to these videos without pressure to view it may help him when he's ready
@@entrotlek I'm curious. What did you learn about yourself in therapy that was the most helpful? The issue my friend has is that any time he gets self reflective about his own actions, he immediately falls into a place of shame. Not "I did bad things", but "I am bad." I'm also curious how you came to learn your aggression was nothing more than a protective measure?
@@jamesbow5916 Hello, honestly, it took covid happening along with me just being plain tired of being so angry all the time. The lock down forced me to slow down and the solitude gave me space to think back on the various negative situations in my life. I noticed a pattern and that once i was by my self i no longer had a scapegoat to project my issued on. I think i had what Ekhart Tolle calls a "dark night of the soul" where i realized the aggressiveness i though was protecting myself was actually damaging me and holding me back from the positive things i yearned for all along. I ended up spending the year reading self help books on personality disorders, trauma, and codependency to understand their diffrences better. I realized alot of my misery was based on internalized negative messages i grew up hearing from the other disordered around me. I believed them because i was a child and their word was gospel. I never thought of others opinionsand assessments of myself as being just that; THEIR perspective based on their own backgrounds and experiances. I finally decieded to seek out therapy after finding this channel and Dr. Kirk Honda, as well as Dr.Jerry Wise, and Dr. Fox's channels. It really helpled me understand how various relationship dynamics and internalized beliefs formed my own self and how I viewed myself in relation to others. I realized in trying to avoid rejection from those i viewed as better or above me , i was behaving in controlling and negative ways to make that fear a reality. Being pity seeking, and easily wounded also unknowingly gave me the benefit of staying immature which compounded in affecting my professional and fiscial life. Finally accepting that things are as they are and that i am allowed to have a self and the lables other equaly ill people gave me arent true really helped releasing alot of the self hate and anxiety which releaved alot of the depression as well. The work is hard as hell but it is so rewarding. It wonderful you want to help your friend. I hope they are able to get the help they need. Its a deeply personal thing to do, but necessary. If they decide to take that journey, just be there to listen and offer encouragement. Best of luck to you both!
To help my tendencies with aggression, I'm practicing mindfulness. I also apologize A LOT!!!!!! It's a full time job, being aware of the value of others.
I shared this to Facebook. These videos are so helpful in making a connection between somewhat abstract psychotherapeutic concepts and and awareness of how we conduct our day-to-day lives.
Carmen: my daughter was supposed to take dbt after she was diagnosed w.bpd. She couldn't manage to fit it into her schedule.I wistfully wonder if her life would have improved muchly had she found a way to try that therapy. Shortly thereafter she announced that she no longer had bpd. Ahem.( Yes she does.....) Now she's re-derailed her life.
@@terywetherlow7970 I'm truly sorry to hear that. I am by no means "cured" from BPD - I have learned self awareness, I have a better understanding of how, and why my action's have led to my own destructive behavior. I meditate daily, and am still in therapy. I'm coming close to the end of my therapy and I am so grateful to my therapist who has helped me get to a better place. I am in control of my emotions, and no longer feel an intense need to prove myself to other's. Like everything else in life, you take things one day at a time.
I really needed to hear how one responds to aggressive people in our personal lives. I had a 'friend' attack me awfully out of the blue when I was extremely ill physically and so vulnerable. I had been isolating for a long time and couldnt keep our friendship in the manner she was used to and so she attacked my health. It was awful. It made me feel sick. I sat on it for two months , as I felt that a response, was just buying into the attack. But, on a stressful day I sent them a response that told them I was eradicating them from my life (which I have done). I felt as though although I was deeply hurt, I had bought into the game and I know I didnt respond well. I wish I could hear Dr Yeomans advice on standing up for yourself while under attack and yet not attacking back. A hard one.
I was always accused of having anger outbursts by my negligent mother, antisocial father and husband who claimed he had no issues. When I took ownership instead of feeling guilt, they were no longer able to shame me.
I am very glad I allowed myself to go through this..what a wisdom...a life of narcissism is a life of waste.. It is like you were supposed to go the right path to reach your rightful destination but you chose left..all narcissists are not in touch and causes failure of life..failure of the big picture
My favourite way to calm down is to notice my building anger and to observe what it feels like to be me in the situation that is angering me. I usually find it hilarious. Being mad is pretty funny. The humour of the situation (or rather, of my metacognition of the situation?) depressirizes my anger and lets almlst all of ot out.
@@andrewsmith3257 When I HAVE to be around them, I try to anticipate them doing that: the reaction that they provoke in me might be what they want. I try to treat them (in my mind) as a child who can't help but make messes around me and with my feelings, so that I don't feel all that hurt about it. It's not easy all of the time. Often it is, though, given how predictable their behaviour can be. I also try to replace them in my life (time-management-wise) with someone or something more collaborative with my life. Sometimes, I even verbally draw boundaries with them. But with some people, they'll pretend that they don't understand the boundary. It depends on delivery and on the person.
Also the quick changes in perspective were a bit distracting.. some would be cool but it felt a bit overdone. The echo effect was cool though. But on the other hand I'm kind of over some of my sensory sensitivity issues that I used to have so I can imagine it being annoying to other viewers or to my past self.
At about 2:40, where Yeomans is discussing Klein's depressive position - I think Don Carveth's clarification of this (which you can find on his channel in his lectures on Klein) is very helpful. Klein did not mean the depressive position to refer to depression, she meant it to refer to depressive anxiety - that is, my feeling of concern and guilt (what Winnicott called "ruth" - the capacity for concern) after I have woken up from regression to splitting where I was attacking someone thinking they were an all-bad persecutor - my feeling of guilt about this and my desire to repair the other, and anxiety about whether reparation will be possible. This is not depression per se - many Kleinian writers (sounds like Yeomans is not one of these but I haven't read his books) get this confused.
I think Yeomans is right as well, he emphasized split happening in PS position, and accepting duality in one self we slowly move towards Depresive position. I dont see any difference between their understanding to be honest.
Great video, but I gotta say, it was frustrating that you cut him off just as he was about to start talking about the difficulty of dealing with angry paranoid types in one's own life, outside a clinical setting. If he had any tips on that at all, I really wanted to hear them.
Great to have Frank Yeomans back on your channel, especially as one of the leading people regarding TFP. Maybe Eve Caligor in some next interview or conversation?
I am so very glad to have found this channel. I honestly did not think there were any practical treatments for people with NPD or APD! I am also very glad to hear psychoanalysis being discussed. I have been told far too many times that it is out of date and no longer used!
Great interview ruined by the editing. The content is good enough, it doesn't need all these video/audio filters, it's very distracting and unnerving - especially for such a sensitive content.
Hi and thanks for sharing your viewpoint. We went back and forth on this decision and landed on this editing treatment after some careful thought about what would be most engaging to the most people in our audience. Sorry to hear it's not your style and had the opposite-than-intended effect on you.
rjrnj1 we realized the editing might prompt a response like yours and totally get it. We’re trying something we and honing it as we aren’t filming in a studio with lighting and high end lenses etc... so it rendered a different result, this this new editing approach. Thank you for the feedback.
I love the discussion but feel the endless cutting, mirroring, audio doubling etc really distracts from the piece. It feels like we're occasionally venturing into Alan Watts territory and I'm wondering whether I'm listening to a clinical discussion or half baked in the chillout tent at some psy festival.
The content of this video is very important. I highly appreciate for bringing this knowledge of human psychology to me. Just a humble request, please don’t animate or edit word by word. If the aim is to make the video more engaging, entertaining or interesting maybe improving light, camera angles and other recordings techniques will be more suitable. Very honestly any kind of animation would be distracting for this type of content. Great interview, thought provoking questions, and valuable learnings about human psychology. A big thanks 🙏
Hi, this is Caleb McCool again. By watching many of your videos as a whole, it reminds me of my own thought of “I have BPD, and sometimes I’m in pain... And if there are times that I feel overwhelming pain, then I know others with less than me would struggle just as much with pain.” ... In my experience, others I’ve met with BPD are among the most authentic and sincere people. I thought of mentioning my brother and me have our own ministry - in which we do videos and public speaking. ( i won’t mention the ministry name here, as I don’t want to spam) As being diagnosed with BPD, let me know if I can ever be of service. And I don’t mean to give any pressure on a decision. Just wanted to throw out the offer 🙏
Caleb... I always love reading your comments and sense your kind good vibes. It might be best for us to get on the phone to talk possible ways to collaborate. I know you sent me an email a while back and I think I half responded but wasn't sure how to proceed. My email is borderlinethemovie@gmail.com - if you follow-up with me there, we can then trade phone numbers and talk more real-time. Thank you for being so forthcoming in sharing thoughts, feelings etc... So appreciate reading what you have to say.
@12:48 - "Reacting @ gut level" - Worded differently, failing to apply a cortical pause ! Sadly, few people even know how to do that. For more see the unclearly titled INSTITUTE of GENERAL SEMANTICS.- Stated more accurately it's actually a META system & THE Non Newtonian Science of Evaluations which uses modern methodology to solve every daily life problems. THE core book is "SCIENCE & SANITY" by ALFRED KORZYBSKI. Being a scientific treatise, for those keen to get to that level I recommend you read 5 or 6 mid level books to act as a bridge to get to that level e.g. Korzybski's 1 st book "MANHOOD OF HUMANITY" & any book by BRUCE KODISH - apart from those he wrote on back pain. - And don't bother reading Hayakawa as he never understood that rather than ordinary semantics, G-S is actually a Science of Evaluations. - Getting up there did wonders for my life ! :)
At 10.55 Yeomans touches on the topic of the extreme emotional experience of the paranoid mind coming to light sometimes with activists and this rings true. I believe it lies behind the tendency to perceive conservative opponents as 'hateful' , or even 'genocidal' for holding traditional views about such things as immigration control or gender ideology.
thats true. i was born with a "bad" brain but the pyschologist said it was just natural human instincts. he referred me for treatment but i was turned away and black listed by psychology society in manitoba
I agree that humanity needs to come to terms with it's inborn instinctive tendencies in order to do something about managing the negative consequences of following through on them, but it's also important when having discussions about politically charged topics to take a neutral position with the intention of citing examples but not simultaneously expressing a personal opinion on such matters. I agree with the psychological assessments, I don't agree with the political bias in the discussion. One must play devil's advocate for the sake of arriving at some common truth (Hegelianism). Sometimes the "bad guys" have valid points... The only way we are going to come to some compromise in any conflict is to understand the perspective of the "antagonist" in our own false dichotomic narrative... Hollywood loves false dichotomies because humans are hardwired for the "us against them" type mindset. In my opinion, when an academic expresses their own personal opinions on a highly polarized political topics it shows a lack of professionalism and perhaps points to a hidden agenda. Look closely at your own motives and biases before you teach others to operate without bias....
Although I really appreciate the interview and the conversation was, as always very interesting, I really really didn't like the editing. I find it distracting and as if the editor wanted to be in the limelight and was more concentrated to "play the editor" than put the attention on the person that is being interviewed. I hope you will go back to former style, your work is very beneficial and important. ( sorry for the spelling and grammar mistakes, not a native speaker)
Thank you for the feedback. We understand the editing might have this impact and were working with a new set of production limitations we were trying to solve through the edit.
Errrr no. I've liked every video I've seen so far because they were clearly and directly expressed. I hope no others have any of these terrible effects. One was too much
Also, just to clarify a bit more about depressive position and the depressive anxiety that goes with this vs. depression - depression actually belongs more to the paranoid-schizoid position, because any serious depression involves a feeling that one is all-bad - and that is splitting (the "schizoid" part of paranoid-schizoid).
@@suzanne6441 that's right, in order to experience depressive anxiety there has to be ambivalence - one wakes up from splitting and remembers that the other person (or oneself, if one is splitting about oneself rather than another person) isn't all-bad, they're good too -- so is there time to repair them?! (Exclamation point added to emphasize the depressive *anxiety* part.) The key point really is that in the depressive position, there is the ability to remember that a person who is seen as bad at one moment, is also good, and that these ideas (and feelings--this is, crucially, not just an intellectual exercise) about said person can be held in mind simultaneously, together. And we all split sometimes, so being mentally healthy is more a question of how quickly you wake up from being in the paranoid-schizoid position, rather than never visiting it at all after achieving the depressive position. These are states of mind that we all experience sometimes, more than they are developmental stages (though the depressive position is certainly more developmentally mature). All it takes is a bad night's sleep, for some people or low blood sugar for others, and most people are a bit more prone to feeling persecuted and feeling irritable. BPD, being part of someone's personality, is like that but is more entrenched and often more extreme than that.
Interesting explanation of the difference between the serial killer with the anti-social personality and the concentration camp guard as the paranoid schizoid. I've often wondered about "some" present day authorities (say for instance prosecutors of murderers...rapists..etc...) and wondered if their common methods might be an unhealthy, or even disordered personality trait...and even the way our culture seems to "steer" victims toward "punishment of the perpetrator as a solution to their pain"...There has always seemed to me to be something quite unhealthy about this stance for everyone involved...even while the outrage may be completely understandable in one sense...it always comes across to me in such trials that the prosecutors are something like the "paranoid schizoid" you describe who seems to be dividing the world into "bad folks" and "good folks". I do understand that a lot of this is likely due to the way our justice system "requires" prosecutors to be...but it's often very difficult for me to witness, because it feels as if they may be doing far more harm than good promoting this "black and white" view of humanity.
Great interview. The cycling through different views every few seconds makes it very difficult to follow though, unlike previous videos that did not have this issue. Especially when it focuses on the interviewer partway through one of his sentences.
I got angry at my boyfriend when he didn't respond to affection and care I showed him after his medical procedure. I have BPD.. He has undiagnosed Aspergers. I understand this is a bad combination.
In the 90's we took micro dot acid. For 12+ hrs we experienced pure aggression with out the stress that usually accompanies it. I learned that night that aggression is the purest form of existence. It's absolutely wonderful.
This was the problem with this system from the beginning. You barely have more people in the government who don't share publicly proclaimed values, but times have changed, and the place of the US in the world has changed. An hearing people speak more about irresponsible behaviours - gives me hope.
My mom neglected me for around 10 years took me to bad therapy that traumatized and angered me, went to india 4+ times in unstable “meditation” retreat that made her minutely more aware but…… Now after continuing to abuse me…… she wants to go again Am I losing it or is my mom legitimately either delusional and/or intentionally abusing me?
I found the artistic approach in edtiting and filming more disturbing to just following the interesting conversation. Less is more; e.g. Joe Rogan, Jocko Willink...just talk, the content does the job for you.
It would be nice if the editor hadn’t taken away so much from the video that part of you wants to put the device down and LISTEN, instead of being distracted by S-* on the screen, for crying out loud.
What about the aggression that comes after one is surprised by rape or assault (but obviously not after successfully lethal application of force)? Not the gray areas of interpretation of harm, but in direct response to explicit harm done by the other. Is that reactive self-defensive aggression the same? And then when it turns into PTSD, when the threat has been survived, but the aggressive feelings continue, is that the same?
Aggression feels good what a load of crap aggression is a negative emotion full stop
Hi there, thanks for the comment. Did you finish watching the vid?
First, thank you for the comment. Always appreciated even if I may take issue with it. Truly, welcome the varying perspectives. Anyhoo... my response - Rebbie here - another of the channel creator people (I'm in the intro). I have to heartily disagree with you about how aggression feels. It is not pretty to admit this, but feeling anger and sometimes acting on via aggression FEELS cohering. The impact isn't typically favorable on the recipients or ultimately myself. But man, is it seductive to feel justified and righteous in my position/pov, so much so that I am going to tirade about it.
Hi Rebbie! :) I pinned this because I thought it was a perfect illustration of what is being discussed in the video. -p
Calm down princess....
@@boblazar9720 Still tilting windmills, Prince Charming?
This editing is definitely too much. Toning it down would be better. I like to focus on what the person is saying, and it's hard to do that with such a hyperactive editing.
More Dr. Frank Yeomans, however, is always welcome. This is a wise man.
Im just a minute in and i gotta say your editor is agressive
haha! thanks
@@BorderlinerNotes it's trippy but i think it works!
So do we. But we thought it might get some pushback....
I love your videos Rebbie (as a regular human and as a clinical psychologist who works with clients with BPD). The editing in the first half of the video is a bit too much and I found myself having to look away and just listen because it was too distracting. Love the editing in all your other videos though. Thanks again for all your awesome work in this space!
Yeah, quite distracting, the other videos look better and are more pleasant to watch. But the conversation itself, it's one of the best on this channel (and it has many great videos).
A healthy observing ego is not only the antidote to impulsivity, but also neutralizes the other extreme of overanalysis (or paralysis of analysis), which can happen when one over values the process of thinking before one acts.
What?
@devonport3157 As with so many things in life, there's 2 opposite extremes and a balanced middle (dialectics). So, in this case, there's not enough thinking or evaluating on one side (impulsivity), and too much thinking (overanalysis) on the other. It takes a healthy observing ego to find the proper balance between thinking vs acting on feelings and impulses. I think it takes other things as well, like self-discipline, and that also needs to be balanced.
I worked with Dr. Yeomans at NY Hospital years ago. I am thrilled to have found him here on RUclips. He is such a kind, generous and knowledgeable person. He ran the Psychoanalytic Borderline Unit there. I’m so grateful for the time I spent with his expertise. These videos are Gold!
I liked the previous black and white video editing, this videos editing makes it hard to focus on the video.
cant even concentrate on what the dr is saying because the editor decided to be creative
I'll buy any book Dr. Yeoman publishes. Such a brilliant, kind, generous Genius.
Aren't you idealizing him a little bit?...
@@rv706 lol!
To me this makes complete sense, I have been going through this aggression toward those "others" who are devaluing but although I am starting to wake up to it in myself, I am still struggling to step back and see it from their perspective. It is extremely easy to dump that aggression and devalue the other and then tell yourself that was justified retribution. Then there is a part of you that says look at what you are becoming. You are no better than they are. There is nothing good within you at all.
I'm better than "them".
Never acted with malicious intentions.
There was anger. Yes
But there wasn't a behavior with intention to destroy "them". That's the difference and I can be proud of it.
Some people fight those drives and thoughts instead of acting and making excuses.
What worries me is how many psychologists assume that everyone is acting on those drives.
Seriously it scares me.
Please post more yeomans love him
We got more coming....
Serial killers, I think, do hate themselves, it's just not conscious most of the time. What comes to mind right away on this is the observation that I forget which police detective made about these types of people, which is that they often want to confess, as long as they feel like they're doing that with someone who understands their point of view. There's something inside themselves that feels self-hate, guilt, and all the rest, but it's so deeply buried in the unconscious that it's practically inaccessible. It shows itself, though, in the seemingly odd tendency toward self-destructiveness that many of these people have. Again, if you listen to Don Carveth's talks, especially about narcissism, where he talks about how narcissistic people live in constant flight from a savage, primitive, persecutory superego, this becomes clearer. The serial killer projects that murderousness outward, and part of them will also feel guilt about that, often to quite an extreme degree that they're not aware of. (I am inferring somwhat from Carveth's words but I don't think it's that much of a stretch.) Carveth also usefully distinguishes conscience from superego as a separate mental structure, which helps clarify these issues. Yeomans and Kernberg and most others seem to follow James Strachey's idea of superego modification rather than arguing for the need for demolition of the superego as Freud, Ferenczi, and others argued for. Strachey's position on this ended up winning out, but it's probably worth reconsidering that victory.
I really appreciate what he said about activists and the dangers of polarized positions. Younger people are often lacking in critical thinking skills including the ability to do basic research. They are primed to be very emotionally reactive and thus easily manipulated.
This is a fantastic conversation. Dr. Yeomans just described one of my friends perfectly. He seems anger/vindictiveness/vengeance in others (even when it isn't there), but he never sees it in himself. Everything that is uncomfortable is externally driven. Everything he hates is manifest in himself and his actions; but he is completely unable to see it or acknowledge it. Even when it is acknowledged, he always feels completely justified. Every once in a while, he is able to get himself into that "depressive" state; but he can never stay there for long. Many of his social media posts are about "true friends" or about removing "unsupportive" friends from his life.
Sadly, I've tried to point out his inconsistencies; but those conversation have gone no where... except seeing me as the unsupportive friend.
Thanks for the comment and happy to hear this is relevant to your life. This way of seeing the world (and the self) is unfortunately super common (and super destructive). That's why we want to get this info out there so bad.. so people can begin to recognize it for what it is.
@@BorderlinerNotes It describes someone I know terribly well too and I agree that the info is super important and not nearly enough talked about. A while ago, I went to Foyles, London's best and biggest bookshop, and trawled the psychology and psychotherapy sections for books on anger and/or aggression. Not one title referred to either of these things (though I did eventually find some useful material in 'Gestalt Therapy' by Perls, Hefferline and Goodman, and in Hilary Jacobs Hendell's 'It's Not Always Depression.')
This. I am just now understanding this concept. I thought that I was surrounded by cruel stupid disloyal people. Many of the people I in my life live in my mind as every negative thing they've done or said around me so I spent alot of my interactions with them trying to fix and or berate them for those flaws. My aggression was seen as a protective measure against further verbal or emotional abuse. To the point of seeing nearly everything anyone does as being bad in some way. In turn I lived in a perpetual state of anxiety trying to be perfect and not like them. Id crumble from the constant pressure and fall into a depressive state. It was jarring as hell when the paradigm shift happened through therapy. My heart goes out to you and your friend. Even if he doesn't realize it right now , you are indeed a good friend to him. Sending him links to these videos without pressure to view it may help him when he's ready
@@entrotlek I'm curious. What did you learn about yourself in therapy that was the most helpful? The issue my friend has is that any time he gets self reflective about his own actions, he immediately falls into a place of shame. Not "I did bad things", but "I am bad."
I'm also curious how you came to learn your aggression was nothing more than a protective measure?
@@jamesbow5916 Hello, honestly, it took covid happening along with me just being plain tired of being so angry all the time. The lock down forced me to slow down and the solitude gave me space to think back on the various negative situations in my life. I noticed a pattern and that once i was by my self i no longer had a scapegoat to project my issued on. I think i had what Ekhart Tolle calls a "dark night of the soul" where i realized the aggressiveness i though was protecting myself was actually damaging me and holding me back from the positive things i yearned for all along. I ended up spending the year reading self help books on personality disorders, trauma, and codependency to understand their diffrences better. I realized alot of my misery was based on internalized negative messages i grew up hearing from the other disordered around me. I believed them because i was a child and their word was gospel. I never thought of others opinionsand assessments of myself as being just that; THEIR perspective based on their own backgrounds and experiances. I finally decieded to seek out therapy after finding this channel and Dr. Kirk Honda, as well as Dr.Jerry Wise, and Dr. Fox's channels. It really helpled me understand how various relationship dynamics and internalized beliefs formed my own self and how I viewed myself in relation to others. I realized in trying to avoid rejection from those i viewed as better or above me , i was behaving in controlling and negative ways to make that fear a reality. Being pity seeking, and easily wounded also unknowingly gave me the benefit of staying immature which compounded in affecting my professional and fiscial life. Finally accepting that things are as they are and that i am allowed to have a self and the lables other equaly ill people gave me arent true really helped releasing alot of the self hate and anxiety which releaved alot of the depression as well. The work is hard as hell but it is so rewarding. It wonderful you want to help your friend. I hope they are able to get the help they need. Its a deeply personal thing to do, but necessary. If they decide to take that journey, just be there to listen and offer encouragement. Best of luck to you both!
The video editing? Phew! Had to look away to keep listening and not get distracted.
To help my tendencies with aggression, I'm practicing mindfulness. I also apologize A LOT!!!!!! It's a full time job, being aware of the value of others.
stop apologising !
I shared this to Facebook. These videos are so helpful in making a connection between somewhat abstract psychotherapeutic concepts and and awareness of how we conduct our day-to-day lives.
So glad you feel this way about these vids. We are trying to find the people (like Yeomans) who can decipher and outline the connections.
DBT classes have been a real life saver for me.
Carmen: my daughter was supposed to take dbt after she was diagnosed w.bpd.
She couldn't manage to fit it into her schedule.I wistfully wonder if her life would have improved muchly had she found a way to try that therapy. Shortly thereafter she announced that she no longer had bpd. Ahem.( Yes she does.....) Now she's re-derailed her life.
@@terywetherlow7970
I'm truly sorry to hear that. I am by no means "cured" from BPD - I have learned self awareness, I have a better understanding of how, and why my action's have led to my own destructive behavior. I meditate daily, and am still in therapy. I'm coming close to the end of my therapy and I am so grateful to my therapist who has helped me get to a better place. I am in control of my emotions, and no longer feel an intense need to prove myself to other's. Like everything else in life, you take things one day at a time.
I really needed to hear how one responds to aggressive people in our personal lives. I had a 'friend' attack me awfully out of the blue when I was extremely ill physically and so vulnerable. I had been isolating for a long time and couldnt keep our friendship in the manner she was used to and so she attacked my health. It was awful. It made me feel sick. I sat on it for two months , as I felt that a response, was just buying into the attack. But, on a stressful day I sent them a response that told them I was eradicating them from my life (which I have done). I felt as though although I was deeply hurt, I had bought into the game and I know I didnt respond well. I wish I could hear Dr Yeomans advice on standing up for yourself while under attack and yet not attacking back. A hard one.
Hard indeed. -P
Indeed very hard
I was always accused of having anger outbursts by my negligent mother, antisocial father and husband who claimed he had no issues. When I took ownership instead of feeling guilt, they were no longer able to shame me.
thank you so much for the hard work you do on this channel. these videos are a treasure - they make such valuable knowledge available to so many.
Thank you for being here and for the kind comment!
I'm glad he made the point of activists have to listen to BOTH sides and don't act on impulse..wise words..I really like this guy.
I am very glad I allowed myself to go through this..what a wisdom...a life of narcissism is a life of waste.. It is like you were supposed to go the right path to reach your rightful destination but you chose left..all narcissists are not in touch and causes failure of life..failure of the big picture
My favourite way to calm down is to notice my building anger and to observe what it feels like to be me in the situation that is angering me.
I usually find it hilarious. Being mad is pretty funny.
The humour of the situation (or rather, of my metacognition of the situation?) depressirizes my anger and lets almlst all of ot out.
My second favourite way to calm down is to go away with a kleenex box and then smash it a few times against the floor while yelling wordlessly. LOL
How do you deal with a narcissist that pushes your buttons all the time? That's what I'm living with
@@andrewsmith3257 When I HAVE to be around them, I try to anticipate them doing that: the reaction that they provoke in me might be what they want. I try to treat them (in my mind) as a child who can't help but make messes around me and with my feelings, so that I don't feel all that hurt about it.
It's not easy all of the time. Often it is, though, given how predictable their behaviour can be.
I also try to replace them in my life (time-management-wise) with someone or something more collaborative with my life.
Sometimes, I even verbally draw boundaries with them. But with some people, they'll pretend that they don't understand the boundary. It depends on delivery and on the person.
Also the quick changes in perspective were a bit distracting.. some would be cool but it felt a bit overdone. The echo effect was cool though. But on the other hand I'm kind of over some of my sensory sensitivity issues that I used to have so I can imagine it being annoying to other viewers or to my past self.
The editing was distracting and odd!
At about 2:40, where Yeomans is discussing Klein's depressive position - I think Don Carveth's clarification of this (which you can find on his channel in his lectures on Klein) is very helpful. Klein did not mean the depressive position to refer to depression, she meant it to refer to depressive anxiety - that is, my feeling of concern and guilt (what Winnicott called "ruth" - the capacity for concern) after I have woken up from regression to splitting where I was attacking someone thinking they were an all-bad persecutor - my feeling of guilt about this and my desire to repair the other, and anxiety about whether reparation will be possible. This is not depression per se - many Kleinian writers (sounds like Yeomans is not one of these but I haven't read his books) get this confused.
I think Yeomans is right as well, he emphasized split happening in PS position, and accepting duality in one self we slowly move towards Depresive position. I dont see any difference between their understanding to be honest.
Borderline notes is the best channel for psychology love from Greece
This channel is very educational.
I also appreciated the creative editing!
These interviews are so interesting. Well done. Thank you to both parties for sharing this depth of knowledge.
Love ya work Frank! The scizotypal editing was a laugh and as usual Dr Yeoman's calm depth of field is profound. Many thanks!
I wish they could upload the original version of video without all the effects
Great video, but I gotta say, it was frustrating that you cut him off just as he was about to start talking about the difficulty of dealing with angry paranoid types in one's own life, outside a clinical setting. If he had any tips on that at all, I really wanted to hear them.
Exactly my thoughts, too. I really wanted to hear that part, but it got cut off.
Same
If you haven’t noticed, she’s very aggressive. I find some of her videos hard to watch for this reason.
“ Nothing can be loved or hated unless it is first understood.” - Leonardo da Vinci
This is gold, especially the first half. Thanks Rebbie and Team!
Great to have Frank Yeomans back on your channel, especially as one of the leading people regarding TFP. Maybe Eve Caligor in some next interview or conversation?
Thanks for the response, and great suggestion. We know that name here at the channel!
I am so very glad to have found this channel. I honestly did not think there were any practical treatments for people with NPD or APD! I am also very glad to hear psychoanalysis being discussed. I have been told far too many times that it is out of date and no longer used!
Editing here makes me nauseous in how quick it changes… editor is trying to be too clever. Thank you for the helpful content, though.
The editing for dramatic effect is totally unnecessary and distracts from the presentation.
Such valuable wisdom.
Excellent presentation, Dr. Yeomans
I love how this is cut in so many ways.
I just loove this channel.
Thanks a lot
Thank you!
The interviewer does such a good job.
Great video! Great thinker!
Great interview ruined by the editing. The content is good enough, it doesn't need all these video/audio filters, it's very distracting and unnerving - especially for such a sensitive content.
Hi and thanks for sharing your viewpoint. We went back and forth on this decision and landed on this editing treatment after some careful thought about what would be most engaging to the most people in our audience. Sorry to hear it's not your style and had the opposite-than-intended effect on you.
@@BorderlinerNotes I enjoyed the new editing/filming techniques. Nice change.
I was, also, distracted but... I've got ADHD, so maybe...
Nope. Just annoyed me.
rjrnj1 we realized the editing might prompt a response like yours and totally get it. We’re trying something we and honing it as we aren’t filming in a studio with lighting and high end lenses etc... so it rendered a different result, this this new editing approach. Thank you for the feedback.
Not loving the editing either.
I love the discussion but feel the endless cutting, mirroring, audio doubling etc really distracts from the piece. It feels like we're occasionally venturing into Alan Watts territory and I'm wondering whether I'm listening to a clinical discussion or half baked in the chillout tent at some psy festival.
The content of this video is very important. I highly appreciate for bringing this knowledge of human psychology to me. Just a humble request, please don’t animate or edit word by word. If the aim is to make the video more engaging, entertaining or interesting maybe improving light, camera angles and other recordings techniques will be more suitable. Very honestly any kind of animation would be distracting for this type of content. Great interview, thought provoking questions, and valuable learnings about human psychology. A big thanks 🙏
Hi, this is Caleb McCool again. By watching many of your videos as a whole, it reminds me of my own thought of “I have BPD, and sometimes I’m in pain... And if there are times that I feel overwhelming pain, then I know others with less than me would struggle just as much with pain.” ... In my experience, others I’ve met with BPD are among the most authentic and sincere people.
I thought of mentioning my brother and me have our own ministry - in which we do videos and public speaking. ( i won’t mention the ministry name here, as I don’t want to spam)
As being diagnosed with BPD, let me know if I can ever be of service. And I don’t mean to give any pressure on a decision. Just wanted to throw out the offer 🙏
Caleb... I always love reading your comments and sense your kind good vibes. It might be best for us to get on the phone to talk possible ways to collaborate. I know you sent me an email a while back and I think I half responded but wasn't sure how to proceed. My email is borderlinethemovie@gmail.com - if you follow-up with me there, we can then trade phone numbers and talk more real-time. Thank you for being so forthcoming in sharing thoughts, feelings etc... So appreciate reading what you have to say.
@@BorderlinerNotes I went ahead and sent you an email. Let me know if you haven’t received it yet.
My mother had a good comeback to my narc critical father. She said your problem is that you can't find a perfect wife
@12:48 - "Reacting @ gut level" - Worded differently, failing to apply a cortical pause ! Sadly, few people even know how to do that. For more see the unclearly titled INSTITUTE of GENERAL SEMANTICS.- Stated more accurately it's actually a META system & THE Non Newtonian Science of Evaluations which uses modern methodology to solve every daily life problems. THE core book is "SCIENCE & SANITY" by ALFRED KORZYBSKI. Being a scientific treatise, for those keen to get to that level I recommend you read 5 or 6 mid level books to act as a bridge to get to that level e.g. Korzybski's 1 st book "MANHOOD OF HUMANITY" & any book by BRUCE KODISH - apart from those he wrote on back pain. - And don't bother reading Hayakawa as he never understood that rather than ordinary semantics, G-S is actually a Science of Evaluations. - Getting up there did wonders for my life ! :)
Awesome editing by the way! Blended well with the conversation, very dynamic.
Great topic and interview but the camera work was distracting and unpleasant.
I don't think I took acid earlier....
At 10.55 Yeomans touches on the topic of the extreme emotional experience of the paranoid mind coming to light sometimes with activists and this rings true. I believe it lies behind the tendency to perceive conservative opponents as 'hateful' , or even 'genocidal' for holding traditional views about such things as immigration control or gender ideology.
thats true. i was born with a "bad" brain but the pyschologist said it was just natural human instincts. he referred me for treatment but i was turned away and black listed by psychology society in manitoba
Can I give this video 100 thumbs up?! 😊 my favorite line? “Think before you act.”
The four or fore fathers monument in Plymouth mass, is a memorial of what it took to build the country, great vid
I agree that humanity needs to come to terms with it's inborn instinctive tendencies in order to do something about managing the negative consequences of following through on them, but it's also important when having discussions about politically charged topics to take a neutral position with the intention of citing examples but not simultaneously expressing a personal opinion on such matters. I agree with the psychological assessments, I don't agree with the political bias in the discussion. One must play devil's advocate for the sake of arriving at some common truth (Hegelianism). Sometimes the "bad guys" have valid points... The only way we are going to come to some compromise in any conflict is to understand the perspective of the "antagonist" in our own false dichotomic narrative... Hollywood loves false dichotomies because humans are hardwired for the "us against them" type mindset. In my opinion, when an academic expresses their own personal opinions on a highly polarized political topics it shows a lack of professionalism and perhaps points to a hidden agenda. Look closely at your own motives and biases before you teach others to operate without bias....
So fascinating!
Fantastic conversation !
Although I really appreciate the interview and the conversation was, as always very interesting, I really really didn't like the editing. I find it distracting and as if the editor wanted to be in the limelight and was more concentrated to "play the editor" than put the attention on the person that is being interviewed. I hope you will go back to former style, your work is very beneficial and important. ( sorry for the spelling and grammar mistakes, not a native speaker)
Thank you for the feedback. We understand the editing might have this impact and were working with a new set of production limitations we were trying to solve through the edit.
lovely video, I hope your video editor has calmed down since
Excellent ...should be taught in high school ... allowing kids knowledge that will help their lives and relationships
Not a fan of all the cuts. Frank is not boring and doesn't need the help.
Probably someone with minimal knowledge did it. It’s awful, zero quality in editing or sound/ lighting.
I love this editing, I can’t stop loving it haha
That's what we were going for! Lol. -P
Errrr no. I've liked every video I've seen so far because they were clearly and directly expressed. I hope no others have any of these terrible effects. One was too much
Is there an unedited version of this?
Also, just to clarify a bit more about depressive position and the depressive anxiety that goes with this vs. depression - depression actually belongs more to the paranoid-schizoid position, because any serious depression involves a feeling that one is all-bad - and that is splitting (the "schizoid" part of paranoid-schizoid).
So the depression of realizing you were the jerk, wrong, overreacted - isn't going to last like Depression?
@@suzanne6441 that's right, in order to experience depressive anxiety there has to be ambivalence - one wakes up from splitting and remembers that the other person (or oneself, if one is splitting about oneself rather than another person) isn't all-bad, they're good too -- so is there time to repair them?! (Exclamation point added to emphasize the depressive *anxiety* part.)
The key point really is that in the depressive position, there is the ability to remember that a person who is seen as bad at one moment, is also good, and that these ideas (and feelings--this is, crucially, not just an intellectual exercise) about said person can be held in mind simultaneously, together.
And we all split sometimes, so being mentally healthy is more a question of how quickly you wake up from being in the paranoid-schizoid position, rather than never visiting it at all after achieving the depressive position. These are states of mind that we all experience sometimes, more than they are developmental stages (though the depressive position is certainly more developmentally mature). All it takes is a bad night's sleep, for some people or low blood sugar for others, and most people are a bit more prone to feeling persecuted and feeling irritable.
BPD, being part of someone's personality, is like that but is more entrenched and often more extreme than that.
@@jiminy_cricket777 Thanks!
I appreciate your elaboration as well. Thank you.
Interesting explanation of the difference between the serial killer with the anti-social personality and the concentration camp guard as the paranoid schizoid. I've often wondered about "some" present day authorities (say for instance prosecutors of murderers...rapists..etc...) and wondered if their common methods might be an unhealthy, or even disordered personality trait...and even the way our culture seems to "steer" victims toward "punishment of the perpetrator as a solution to their pain"...There has always seemed to me to be something quite unhealthy about this stance for everyone involved...even while the outrage may be completely understandable in one sense...it always comes across to me in such trials that the prosecutors are something like the "paranoid schizoid" you describe who seems to be dividing the world into "bad folks" and "good folks". I do understand that a lot of this is likely due to the way our justice system "requires" prosecutors to be...but it's often very difficult for me to witness, because it feels as if they may be doing far more harm than good promoting this "black and white" view of humanity.
Great interview. The cycling through different views every few seconds makes it very difficult to follow though, unlike previous videos that did not have this issue. Especially when it focuses on the interviewer partway through one of his sentences.
I got angry at my boyfriend when he didn't respond to affection and care I showed him after his medical procedure. I have BPD.. He has undiagnosed Aspergers. I understand this is a bad combination.
Oh yes, it is a bad connection. It's probably not going to change for the better.
What's with the messing with the screen
A video dedicated to our former and future president?
In the 90's we took micro dot acid. For 12+ hrs we experienced pure aggression with out the stress that usually accompanies it.
I learned that night that aggression is the purest form of existence. It's absolutely wonderful.
Thanks for the discussion. Q: Are you familiar with the Schizoid Dilemma, and the four personas? Cheers
One suggestion, with a few either / or’s..
Master: Aggression / Paranoia
Slave: Depression / Subs. Abuse
Betrayer: Paranoia / Aggression
Alone: Trauma takes effect, overflow, like lava, e=mc2 / Mindfulness
This channel’s great but those edits are distracting
who designed these visuals! i liked it. A lot.
Tricky video editing! It is unsettling. I guess that is what was intended, but I did not find it helpful.
Such good material. The editing takes away from it though.
This was the problem with this system from the beginning. You barely have more people in the government who don't share publicly proclaimed values, but times have changed, and the place of the US in the world has changed. An hearing people speak more about irresponsible behaviours - gives me hope.
Is
deleting a person's comment
...
An act of Agresion , please ?
This is super relevant, more so then ever....
What is happening… I am dizzy 🥴
Many people do not reflect or have any sort of introspection
Thank you.
good interview but the editing is throwing me off
Great content! But the creative editing is very annoying and hard to watch. Thank you so much for this series, though. Very helpful.
I loved the video editing, so symbolic of the concepts being dealt with!
My mom neglected me for around 10 years took me to bad therapy that traumatized and angered me, went to india 4+ times in unstable “meditation” retreat that made her minutely more aware but……
Now after continuing to abuse me…… she wants to go again
Am I losing it or is my mom legitimately either delusional and/or intentionally abusing me?
No one can step back and consider anything, when feeling strong emotions. If they could, they wouldn't need people like you.
The content is pure gold.The editing is 💩. Is this aggression? Yes!
Was the 60s protests all about rebelling against your parents? I wonder what Yeoman's would say. He is of that era.
camera work is triggering my aggression😅
Excellent video 👍🏼👍🏼
I found the artistic approach in edtiting and filming more disturbing to just following the interesting conversation. Less is more; e.g. Joe Rogan, Jocko Willink...just talk, the content does the job for you.
It would be nice if the editor hadn’t taken away so much from the video that part of you wants to put the device down and LISTEN, instead of being distracted by S-* on the screen, for crying out loud.
What about the aggression that comes after one is surprised by rape or assault (but obviously not after successfully lethal application of force)? Not the gray areas of interpretation of harm, but in direct response to explicit harm done by the other. Is that reactive self-defensive aggression the same? And then when it turns into PTSD, when the threat has been survived, but the aggressive feelings continue, is that the same?
The constant editing totally detracts from the content. I could hardly concentrate with the flickering nonstop movements 😬😬😬
i certainly felt a little unstable after watching this upload, editing overload.
Editing should be invisible this is amateur and intrusive….. the speaker deserves much better.