The interest in this topic has exceeded my expectations, and audience response has been amazing! I'm going to do a follow-up video to expand and clarify common questions people are having. I have answered in detail lots of great question in the comments. If you'd like something else clarified in the next video, please leave a comment.
I have question! So you mention that dynamic training was not practical for hand training and would like to hear your thoughts about finger curls with barbells or dumbbells to target the extrinsic muscles. Additionally, a regular protocol for hypertrophy would be 8 reps of finger curls to failure. However, when I measure time under tension. Completing a set of 8 reps falls below 30seconds, meaning it would not cause increases on muscle contractile units. So I’m confused about the discrepancy in between known protocols for hypertrophy (8reps) and the time under tension needed you described. Thank you for the amazing content ! Super clear and informative. 🔥
@Mobeta First, thank you for the innovative training content! The series really has been informative and has me reconsidering a lot of conventional climbing training wisdom. Could you explain your methodology for translating time under tension till failure to %RM like 10 seconds to 96% RM as you replied to another comment? Did you derive the 60-180s strength zone from %RM range translated to time under tension till failure? My vague understanding is that loading a weight of 96% of maximum voluntary contraction would map to different time under tension till failure on different power curves.
@briansuh4885 Your welcome! Correct on both accounts. That is the method and also correct, different people have different curves. I used my curve values to give people a starting point. The range is broad anyway, so it will work for people.
@@Mobeta Very much agree! Very informative, concrete and condensed! Big fan here from Denmark :) I very very much look forward to your training suggestions. Looking forward to the content! I subscribed instantly, good work :)
Thanks! I set out to make the video series I would have wanted for myself 10 years ago. Since I don't have a time machine to enjoy it myself, I'm glad I found someone who can.
I would love to hear more about your journey from trying to find concentric/eccentric exercises for hand muscles to settling on isometric training. I've been on a kick designing my own isotonic exercises for grip, and I'm wondering why you ended up deciding that road isnt worth going down. Also, thank you so much for this series! Glad I discovered your channel, and your other non-training stuff is very cool as well.
I designed and extensively trained on more than a dozen machines aimed at isotonic training of targeted hand anatomy. The issues vary by machine. They all required meticulous technique not cheat. Slow rep cadence as well which is not ideal. Basically impossible to train power zone. Insurmountable issues with ergonomics. Issues with isolating muscles and training overlap. I did have acceptable results, in terms of climbing performance, pushing into consolidated V11 climbing from a V9 starting point, but I plateaued. Ultimately, I needed a way forward, and with 3d printing I was able to develop tools much more ergonomic and targeted that allow for much higher volume and intensity which I need at this stage to progress. I can now train hard every single day to failure with excessive volume without so much as a tweak! Edit: For a bit more context, I chased that isotonic training dragon for over 5 years and had something like 20 prototypes at the peak. As I concluded in this video - the simple fact is hands are isometric gripping machines.
@@Mobetawill this be a part of the video series? Super interested to know ablut using 3D printing to create custom tools. I would ask whether more specific grip holds are better because of specificity but I guess the point of training is to generate adaptations and we can make and train specific use of that later in the wall
You get it completely 🎯 You'd be surprised how people struggle with that concept. Strength training should maximally stimulate the muscle in the most ergonomically friendly way possible. Neurological recruitment and skill are 100% context sensitive - train on the rock for these. Grip tools will be covered. Was going to be next, but the amount of questions this generated may warrant another power curve video.
@@Mobeta I would like a deep dive into concentric/eccentric and your journey. I think anyone coming from a normal gym / weight lifting background like me will initially want to train in the way they know works
This series is world class. I would love to see you cover more specific protocols for strengthening the different muscles and tendons related to grip. I feel like this could be an entire channel worth of content. Thank you for all the time and energy you're putting into this.
Thanks! I have also found in that this information tends to be presented in a very confusing fashion. My goal with these videos was to provide a synthesis.
I'm honored you feel that way. I'm just sharing the information I wish I had 10 years ago. The small audience that is here is perfect from my perspective.
I got back into climbing about a year ago and I tried to be deliberate and form a training plan. In everything I looked at, nothing came close to how clear and actionable this is. You cover how to asses your own strength with the curve, how to target and train each section of the curve, and you explain exactly what parts of your body go into the functions of each section. I never felt like I fully understood how to approach grip training until now. Thanks a ton!
Glad it came together for you! It's not easy to see the forest for the trees. There is so much focus on the trees in most online exercise information it's easy to get lost.
I love the way you explain these concepts not only in the video, but also while replying to comments. I definitely learned a lot and I can't wait for the rest of this series!
that was so great! thank you very very much!!! i never understood this completely until you picked the important things and sorted them. btw, speaking seems a little in a rush sometimes, but maybe that's just me ;) looking forward to part 3!!!
Thanks! Your comments are always appreciated - that was wonderfully delivered feedback. What you say is almost certainly true - I listen to podcasts at up to 3x and I use 1.5x to fall asleep! When I'm excited, my speech definitely gets fast.
Thanks! I'm was taking a risk putting information in this format on youtube. Simplifying a topic always invites criticism on fine points, but the response has been great.
ok now this series has really peaked my interest! really want to see the rest of what you've planned for this. It's really insightful to have an MD's perspective and breakdown of what, how and why to train certain ways or for certain targets in climbing!
I love the depth of information. It's much more interesting understanding our bodies and what the thresholds are. Where to expand your exercise if you want specific growth. This is the second channel today that has given me some really interesting food for thought as a new climber. Thank you!
Thank you for this very clear and well crafted presentation. It is not clear to me what kind of exercise should I choose to train strength and not power. Should I hangboard for more than a minute? I personally find power endurance on Moonboard extremely effective (20-24 movements with any foot). But it may not be too specific. Thank you in advance for your dedication
Loved the video! But I‘m somewhat confused that it feels like you suggest 60-180s hangs. Or would it be something like 7-3 Repeaters with 8-12 Reps for an effective hang time of >60 Seconds per Set?
Hold times are first hang to failure. Subsequent hangs use that weight. Subsequent times will depend on rest. There is a lot of variability in how you structure the specific programming.
@@Mobeta Hello, could you elaborate on the strength training range? It's easy for me to pick an appropriate weigh that I can hang from for 60-180s but should I really be hanging to failure? Instinctively I was thinking that I could pick this level of weight then do say 4 sets and 10 second hangs that would feel quite easy. But your reply seems to imply that I'm going to failure and potentially hanging for 1-3 minutes in a set? Any clarity would be greatly appreciated.
@@Chris-hz8lj Your TEST hang is to failure. Working sets should be taken close to failure but always try to avoid actually hitting failure whenever possible because it increases injury risk and exponentially increases recovery time. You're thinking a bit too black and white and you need to be a bit more flexible in your programming. These are guidelines not rules, if you are working in the 50-80% 1rm effort range, trying hard, being consistent, and have progressive overload, you will make gains. 8 reps of 7-3 repeats will probably allow you to use a weight at like 85-90% of your 1rm which is a very high intensity. If you are doing 7-3 repeaters you will need to do more sets or increase the weight a little bit because you are getting 3s of rest every rep. I would pick a slightly higher rep count (12-15 reps of 7-3 repeaters) and when you can do 3-5 sets of that, increase the weight.
@@ComputerManDanMiller This makes a lot of sense. I really appreciate the reply. Do you have any recommendations on whether I should do this before or after board climbing? Seems like doing this before and aiming for the strength range would double as my warm up and strength training.
This is an absolutely wonderful exploration and I can't wait until the next video. As a physicist, I really appreciate the time taken to make the animated graphs + drawings as they massively help understanding. To clarify, are you talking about lifting a particular weight for e.g., 60-180 seconds *in a single hang*, or across the session/sets/something else? Cheers for this excellent work!
A physicist, oh boy, thank you for being gracious about my colloquial use of the term power 😅 Correct, the curve is max hang to absolute failure for first rested attempt of the session. The corresponding weight is what I use for subsequent reps in the target zone.
I’ve also been stuck in the power rut and recently discovered that strength training is the way out. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on structuring on the wall sessions with an eye toward strength. Loving this series!
Great to hear you found your way out! I spent 5 years in that rut, so I know the struggle. I am exclusively an outdoor climber, so wall routines are outside my area of experience or knowledge.
Thanks for the great content! I'm interested in learning more about the training time under each zone defined in this video. For example, in the strength zone of 60-180s, is that the total time per training exercise with rests in between, or is it based on per repetition? Does longer (say, 5-10 min) versus shorter (1-3 min) rest time between reps /sets affect the metabolic system that's trained? How could the time translate into workout reps? This is a really interesting video, power zone reminds me of max hang and strength reminds me of repeater hangs.
Your welcome! The wide power zone reflects the wide training zone known to be effective for stimulating hypertrophy / strength. Where you train in the zone will reflect the relative specialisation of the gains. Training at 180 will be a bias towards Type 1 fiber hypertrophy and metabolic adaptations. Training at 60 will be biased towards Type II hypertrophy and fiber type switching. The zone is defined by the weight you can do for a rested hold to complete failure. That defines the weight you should use. How you structure the workout is a matter of preference, as long as you are taking it to failure.
Correct. There are a million ways this complex topic gets confusing, so I was going for clarity and consistency. Technically, from a physics use of the term, power output in isometric exercise is always 0. I'm used the term power for 2 reasons. 35 seconds is 85% RM (5 reps) which is considered the power lifting zone in weight lifting. The corresponding physiological adaptations in both groups of athletes - climbers and power lifters - working at this intensity are the same. The other reason, I was using functional terms. We would call someone who can do a hard single move a powerful climber. This makes intuitive sense for a non-technical person in the audience.
@@Mobetahow do you do the conversion isometric tut reps? If I recall correctly, in Overcoming Gravity Steven Low argues for a rough conversion of 2s iso = 1 rep, which is why I’ve been training in the 10-12s range for max hangs. But here I see you argue for a much higher conversion of around 5/6s = 1 rep
Steven's approximations are inaccurate in the extreme. As Steven explains in his book, he created his framework logically from first principles. He created a framework that worked for his training, but really shouldn't be used by anyone not on his training program as it has no basis in exercise science. Steven wasn't aware of the concept of power curves. A much more correct way to convert from reps to isometrics is %RM and the corresponding hold time on the power curve. The curve varies by muscle, athlete, and training status. Just using your example - a 10 second isometric is a 96% RM or HIGHER. This is an absurdly heavy load to equate to 5 reps (85%RM) as Steven would suggest. This is wildly inaccurate on the linear portion of the curve. On the exponential portion, he's not even in the same zip code.
@@Mobeta Yes I think he clarifies that it does not hold for higher rep ranges, just for the lower ones. But I'm curious how you define 1RM in isometric holds. It seems like you need a basic unit of time no?
Really concisely stated, this is fantastic content. Looking forward to seeing the exercise selection video. I think the argument of the classic hangboarding advice that you do mostly max holds at around 10s is that this covers the >30s “power” range in a safe and controlled way, while the 60-180s “strength” and 2-4min “endurance” are not really injury-prone because they are dealing with lower intensity, so you can just get those from climbing.
Training at 10 seconds is a 96% RM (even higher because isometrics generate more tension). I encourage people to look at the primary literature with regards to the effectiveness of training at 96% RM or above. To your second point, I completely agree, training isn't really necessary until you are climbing V8 - V10 where people with typical genetics hit their natural limit. Everyone hits a point they are unable to progress further without structured training. The problem with just climbing is that it is impossible to get consistent loads to failure in the optimal ranges across all functional hand anatomy through climbing.
My impression was that the 10s max hangs protocol was really popularized by the Eva Lopez studies. I've always been suspicious that these studies' greatest flaw is that they only last a few months. During this time I would expect recruitment gains to be most important, but over the long term I would expect hypertrophy gains to be more important. And longer duration/higher rep exercises (such as the "rock prodigy" repeaters protocol) are generally shown to maximize hypertrophy (for other muscles at least). As mentioned above, climbers mixing a bunch of climbing with their hangboarding probably get a decent hypertrophy stimulus (though maybe not an optimal stimulus). I can't wait for the exercise selection video, I hope you touch on repeaters vs. long single hangs.
I really love this series so far. I haven't felt excited to watch climbing training content in a bit. I love how the approach is scientific. Quick question: if I want to train in the strength zone, do I convert my pickup training from simply lifting weights off the ground to lifting and then holding for 5 to 10 seconds? Would this be better done using a force gauge (and no weights) instead?
Really great, I do wish you could expand the content to rope climbers as well. Even if these need to be noted separately or handled as a different topic.
I'd have to start rope climbing 😅 You'll definitely want to hit that endurance zone. Boulders think they are training hard with 10 s. 240s to failure takes MUCH more mental fortitude. Training for anerobic endurance is no joke. In research studies they found equivalent hypertrophy with lighter loads, but more athletes vomited!
@@Mobeta haha yeah going for hypertrophy gains at 240s is silly, too mentally taxing. But I was thinking more about standard aerobic gains ie angiogenesis, changes in mitochondrial density, and fiber type. Maybe its not your area of expertise but I feel like endurance adaptations and thus how to train for them optimally is not well understood in climbing. If you did have a point of view, or could use your background to better understand the subject, that would be greatly appreciated.
As you say, it is not well understood. It is impossible to compare the programming variables and possible permutations. There is an art to training for advanced athletes. You won't get much fiber type switching or hypertrophy at 240, but this is the optimal zone targeted in other sports for anerobic endurance (120 - 130 FTP). I exclusively boulder, but I do a session at 240 once every 2 weeks specifically for improved work capacity, endurance and recovery from the metabolic improvements you mentioned. I fastidiously track my power curve, and I've raised my FTP significantly.
Perhaps this is already a little too specific. But when is the optimum time for long duration hangs? After a bouldering session? 3 - 5 sets 60+ ? Are they very safe, especially after a bouldering session? How long should you stick with them to achieve results? At least 2 months? Phenomenal content maybe the questions will be answered in upcoming videos?
Long hangs are very safe as the loads are lower. After a bouldering session is an ideal time for your strength training. Stick with them for life to achieve optimal results. Rate of performance gain depends on age, genetics, and level. In 6 months you should be able to notice an appreciable difference. A V-grade (~10%) every year is doable. Hard to prescribe volume, as it's individual, but 3-5 sets is a good starting point. We'll discuss this in detail in episode 6.
Patiently waiting for episode 3!!! I’ve tried to look through the comments and don’t see a recommendation for power curve testing. There are a ton of data points on your graph. Do you have a simple formula? Say test 1RM, then drop 50% and test max hold/hang, repeat at 40% or rough guess until the 2minute mark is broken? Thank you for the content.
Holds are done to completely failure and are very taxing. For an accurate curve, holds must be done fully rested. An hour rest between minimum. The data points on my graph each represent a single training session over the course of a year. The dispersion is from day to day variation in performance. Simple formula is whatever is going to be your work zone for that session, start the training session with a hang to failure, and record this value. 3 data points at 5 curve locations produces a very accurate result. So 15 training sessions.
Nice to see a fellow MD who enjoys rock climbing. I cannot get any of my colleagues to believe their hands are not at risk climbing. Maybe they will be encouraged by your Videos! Thanks for the methodical, clear and decisive description! How can I obtain your device for flexer strength?
Thanks and quite the opposite - strong hands in anesthesia saves lives! I live with a hand surgeon and she's not worried about my climbing 😁 I make a small number as a hobby, check mobeta.ca in December for details.
Thank you for your in-depth video. I wonder what you think about training with a power meter, i.e. no hang training? I've personally seen good results from it, but I'm sure it's going into the next video. Another question - what do you think of "overcoming isometrics", where you curl your fingers into the edge instead of resisting the opening of the hand? Thirdly, what do you think of the uneven/ergonomic edge types and are they important? I feel like some edges are definitely better for my joints than others due to twisting. Thank you, looking forward to more videos!
Amazing! Building the topic from scratch from anatomy through basic principles, keeping it short, I love it 👍. The discussion is great as well. I'm curious about a relation between Critical Force curve and Power curve, or are they different concepts? What are pros and cons of using a power curve over critical force curve, and repeaters vs hang to failure? Thanks, and looking forward for the next series.
It's the same thing. In retrospect, I should have used the term force curve instead of power, as it is more correct. The word critical is added to place a special emphasis on "critical force" which is just another term for lactate threshold.
@@Mobeta Thx for the clarification. For few moths since I bought Tindeq I've been looking at the linear decrease within each hang time of critical force, which corresponds to the linear part of your power curve. (assuming switching axes) This makes perfectly sense now. I also try to overcome a plateau after >30years of climbing, and I also started with anatomy together with analyzing CF and max hangs for different grip types. I'm thinking in similar way trying to balance grip types and individual fingers. So I'm really looking forward to next videos...
Correct, I've switch the axis, because the dependent variable is weight. Having a curve go to infinity horizontally on X axis is not intuitive. Hopefully I can share something that benefits you. It sounds like we are on a similar journey similar - I'm over 40 and 20 years in and still chasing gains.
@@Mobeta 😀 yeah, the same journey. I'm 49 and getting close to climb 8c again after years. The key for me seems to extend the exercise duration over 60s to what you call the strength zone. There are too many variables/factors to optimize, it is hard to find the 'principal components in that multidimensional space' from the math point of view. It seems for me that you pointed out those most important.
@@igorcerovsky6679 Thanks! My profession is taking infinitely complex physiology, pathological and pharmacology variables and distilling them down to a working actionable set under time pressure with life or death consequences. Over and over again. If my working model is wrong, reality lets me know immediately. I can't help but apply that approach to my thinking about climbing. You could say I'm a professional simplifier 😄
I have been a training addict myself for the past years, tried so much from personal coaches to Lattice and I am really curious to see what type of training exercises you suggest in the next vid. One question that came up immediately after watching the current video: Would you recommend training all three areas of the power curve at once in order to improve max. finger strength?
A proper discussion of tendons would be its own topic. However, the main takeaway is that from a training stimulus perspective, tendons will grow and adapt along side muscle tissue, but more slowly. Most tendon injuries occur in the early stages of a training journey. High intensity is by far the biggest culprit, followed by bad ergonomics and then excessive volume.
@Mobeta thank you. Hope you will dive into the topic in a future episode. Myself and other beginners are struggling with injuries because we're coming from a different movement disciplines and our tendons cannot keep up with our relatively faster progress. Will try moving back on the power curve and train for muscle adaptation for now, thanks for sharing your knowledge
@@wongpeiyi I was in your position early in my training journey and unfortunately had to learn the hard way - dozens of injuries and long plateaus. What you propose is exactly how I would handle the situation. You will still make amazing gains since beginners have much faster adaptation and larger amounts of absolute potential remaining.
Anxious for the next vid! Are you saying that the time under tension should not be broken into reps of repeaters? eg a 30 second TUT would be a 30 second hang instead of 3 x 7:3 repeaters? From my understanding, not many folks have explored longer duration isometrics for anything other than injury recovery. Also, wouldn't longer isometrics make the connective tissue more pliable when we want stiffness for better force transfer from the muscle? Anyway, excited for the third installment!
For clarification, when you say train for strength 60-180s. Does this mean you hold 1 rep for 60-180 seconds? Would love to see an example of how you train. Maybe a top 5 exercise with reps/sets/rest. Thank you for the videos. This has become one of my favorite climbing channels.
@leon-do cool! If you have any questions to help plan your trip, drop me a line. Email on my free online guidebook website, which you'll definitely want to checkout.
Finally a good video about training for climbing. I have always been confused on how long I should be hanging. So I'm pumped to learn about power curves. Can't wait for the nex video, nj! Question: Are thoses handheld type grip trainers and good concentric option? I feel like they should be using the same muscles.
Thanks! Glad it helped clarify things for you. I found this very confusing as well when starting out. I'm not sure exactly what hand held grippers you are referring to. If you mean spring grippers, I did make good prgoess using them but there are issues. The jumps in weight are much too high so you end up owning a dozen of them. They also don't train index finger at all which is a major problem. They cause strain on knuckles from twisting action and are prone to tweaks. Finally, they don't train FDP adequately.
2:04, another way, "All happy families are alike..." stuff like this video is why the internet is so amazing, even considering the preponderance of ads and useless "content". My takeaway is that perhaps I should adjust my hangboard protocol a bit. Right now I do 5 second holds at +50% body weight on the 20mm edge. 5 reps total with about 3 minutes in between reps at the end of a climbing session, and I go once a week. I think I'll try adding in the same thing, but with increased duration and reduced weight, aiming at a total of probably 3 minutes of total hang time.
Thanks, I do this as a hobby, so my motivation is just sharing what I'm interested in. Getting in to specific of programming is a future video in the series. If you are making steady progress in climbing goals, no need to change routine. If your training is plateaued or your V grade isn't increasing - definitely need more strength zone.
Love the Series. Will training for strength require one to lift oder hold the load for whole duration of the 60+ seconds? Or is training the standard repeaters working in the same way (f.e. 6-12 reps with 7 sec on 3 sec off) ? Thanks for the Input. Greets
It's the weight you can hold for a max duration of 60+ seconds. How you structure the workout is up to you, as long as you are taking it to failure multiple times over the course of the session.
I appreciate the video. I have some follow up questions. Here and in the first video the emphasis seems to be on understanding the training of muscles. To my understanding, the forearms are responsible for contracting the fingers, but another significant factor is tendon strength in the fingers. It would be great if you could add some insight on how tendons come into the picture. For example max hangs seem like they would fall into the ‘power’ zone, whereas something like repeaters would likely fall under strength (and maybe endurance depending on how long?). Would you suspect the gains from max hangs to deplete quickly if not training repeaters to increase baseline strength? Or would there be continually gains from max hangs in the form of stronger tendons? Thanks in advance!
I don't want to get into this topic. Most of what is discussed regarding tendons in climbing media is pseudoscience. Utterly false. I don't have an interest in correcting the record on this or getting into drama with people who promote it.
@ do you have any recommendations for sources one could use to learn more about the topic of training tendons and in relation to muscles? Not looking to argue just want to learn more for the sake of training.
@tajjones2053 I understand, your question seemed genuine. It's a common question, wish I could help. Unfortunately, it's gonna be a few years before the climbing community sorts through the tendon topic because the discourse has been side tracked.
When you say “working in the 60 to 120 second range will improve your baseline potential”, how do you do that? Are you talking about long duration hangs? Or something like repeaters with short rest breaks?
Fantastic video, super concisely explained. One question that I have is: why are training regimes (endurance, strength, power) characterized by actual values in seconds rather than by portions of the power curve (e.g. the first 20% of the linear part, is power 30-100% is strength and 90% all the way to the exponential is endurance)? Can it not be the case that for some people/muscles 30s is already near or in the exponential zone? And for some others 2min still in the middle of the linear portion?
You are 100% correct. The target zones is indeed according to %1RM zones rather than time. A high level athlete should know their power curve, and tailor their training to their own curve. The amount of variation between people's curves is impressive. My buddy Seb (featured in my last climbing video) is a world class grip power athlete and has a an extremely flat curve compared with mine. His training looks significantly different as a result. The issue is, I covered a huge amount of information in 10 minutes, and I expect that for most people in the audience, this is the first time they are being introduced to the concept of a power curve. By giving approximate times, with large ranges, people can have a starting point for practically engaging with this information. Training in the zones I suggest allows people to start training the 3 fundamental functional zones without having to get out excel and doing regression analysis and 2 months of data collection to construct their curves. Elite athletes should be doing this.
@@Mobeta makes sense. I’ve only measured my forearm power curve by hanging with progressively less weight, but only took one measurement per weight. Would you recommend taking more? Also, how often do you recommend measuring the power curve? How long do modifications to the curve usually take?
You can't do it on the same day is the issue. After a single hang to failure, subsequent hangs are significantly impacted. I shared my real life curves in the video, each dot is a separate training session. There is also a fair dispersion around the curve from performance variation. To get an accurate curve you'd need multiple sessions per data point and multiple curve points all on separate days. I use last 30 results on a rolling basis and it provides very good curves. 15 is still good. I know my curve so I train 5 points. Thats 3 estimates per point. good news is they change very slowly. Faster at first if you are training a new zone for fiest time, but then very slowly. 6 - 12 months is fine after initial adaptation phase.
This is great. I'm pretty sure this is coming in upcoming videos but I'm wondering how this translates to sets & reps for a training protocol. My guess so far based on what fits with popular training methods is that there are different training methods for the different ranges, i.e. with heavy emphasis on time but not explicitly just time. I'm thinking that training for endurance using density hangs and sub hangs fits the info here pretty well. Also using high weight repeaters and velocity pulls fits this info pretty well depending on your interpretation, i.e. the accumulated time under tension for the workout
@georgeargiriadis112 correct. Repeaters are inefficient from a hypertrophy standpoint, which is why commonly used protocols the only people who success were the ones who were going progress regardless. Most people get stuck at V8 -V10 indefinitely except for the gifted few, when in reality, up to V13 is achievable by anyone.
Does the amount of time under tension have to be in a single go - or does training, for example, ten 10s reps with a few seconds in between have the same effect?
The effect will depend on %RM to failure. Training with gaps in between is less efficient. It will signifncaly increase total training time for any given level of intensity. People do this to simulate climbing rather than to optimize training.
hey, I really liked this video....I've been training in that wayyyy lower time under tension area and see some stall out here after a couple months. So I took your advice and switched up to training in the 30-40 second time under tension zone and holy CRAP is it harder. I thought I would be closer to where I'm at but I had to take my 4 rep lifting edge weight and remove 1/3 of it to find a weight I could BARELY manage to pick up and hold for 30 seconds. Does this sound right and now I just start working this weight for 30 second sets 2-3 times a week (lets say probably 2 sets is all I can do 2x/week so 4 sets total?).
Very interested to see the new episode! Very curious for clarity on what you mean by "60-180s". Are these isometric hang durations for single hangs, or across your entire workout? IE: Multiple sets of 60-90s hangs? Or multiple reps of shorter hangs (10-15s x 6-15 reps) per set? Or are these roughly equivalent or do you mean something else entirely? I look forward to learning more! Edit: After reading some of your other responses it sounds like you do a session where you find the weight you can hang for 60-75s while fresh. Then you do subsequent hangs with this same weight for as long as you can (just short of failure preferably I assume, similar to weightlifting where going to actual failure has an exponentially higher recovery time than just short of it) for multiple sets. Is this roughly correct? Also as someone who has been spending the last few months trying to find useful concentric exercises with very mixed success this has brought a whole lot of clarity and saved me a lot of wasted time and effort. I think they definitely still have a place, mostly in warmups and for rehab, as I find they really stimulate bloodflow in a very controllable way.
Your understanding is 100% correct. Hold time to failure on first attempt. Subsequent hang duration is entirely dependant on recovery time. That'll be a video later in the series. I chased the isotonic dream for 5 years and ~20 machine prototypes. Like in medicine, I can dream of drugs that work by alternative mechanisms, but human physiology and anatomy constrains my dreams to reality.
@Mobeta What are your thoughts on partial ROM training for crimping? Going from a half crimp and contracting it closed. Trying to do full ROM through different grip types just doesn't work well but what about a small ROM within the crimp? Fellow Atlantic Canadian here, represent!
Hi, loving the series. I have a question about the power curve. If I want to build strength i need to pull for 60+ seconds. But does it need to be continuous? Or is the classic repeater style 7-3 ok as long as it hits the 60+seconds per set. Because if it needs to be continuous, i for sure cannot hang from a 14mm edge for 1 minute for the FDP training ahah😅 Ps: can't wait for more episodes
It's the weight you can hold for 60 seconds continuous. There is endless variation in how you decide to structure your training at that intensity - as long as you are taking the weight to absolute failure. I have emphasised repeatedly in this series a major issue with hangboards is people choose hold size based on convenience, not optimal training stimulus. A pulley subtraction setup is mandatory for optimal hangboarding.
@@Mobeta Makes perfect sense. And yeah, seems like I won't be able to use the hangboard at my gym(no pulley), at least for the FDP because of the 50% distal size. Just another question if that's okay. When you were talking about strength you were also mentioning adding contractile issue, does that mean that the 60+ seconds targets hypertrophy ? ( Just trying to put this in the same context of powerlifting where they do cycles of hypertrophy and power )
Exactly! I avoid using term hypertrophy because it is histological not functional. Hypertrophy research is flawed by chasing size at all costs rather than function because that's what body builders value.
Interesting video and looking forward to the next one Is there any scientific literature that uses this concept (power curce) in e.g. weight lifting or other strength sports? For muscle hypertrophy there is, to my knowledge, quite a big amount of research out there. So i guess there a training principles that we as climbers might be able to apply. Also I am curious what exercises will be suggested. I guess it will not be simply hanging from an edge for >60s. That seems to me like being more applicable to sport climbing and also I have heard isometrics are not the best for maxing hypertrophy. Also there is still the big issue of specificity to the actual sport. Like hanging on beastmakers edges may only transfer to outdoor crimps to a degree as they often have completely different characteristics. I think understanding hold types and finding good excercises may be important here.
With regards to hypertrophy, muscles are muscles, forearm is no different in this regard. Hypertrophy research applies. Isometrics are indeed inferior as I mention, but I explain at length why we are stuck with them. All research uses the power curve in the form of %RM which amounts to exactly the same thing. They typically use crude formulas for their %RM conversions to reps. Cadence is a huge issue in isotonic training research. The research outlines exactly the ranges for optimal training. They talk in terms of reps out of practical necessity. If they could perfectly control cadence, then TUT would be a much better measure, and they would likely switch to power curves. The rest will be covered in the next video, with the exception of programming, which is the video after exercise selection.
Really enjoyed this videos contents and approach, thank you and looking forward to more. One thing I didnt get was the comparison between the sprinter and endurance athlete curves. The endurance athletes curve looked strictly better? Wouldn't the sprinter have steep linear with a late exponential. And the endurance have a less steep linesr with an earlier exponential?
I wondered if that would be confusing. 100 on my graph was originally 100 lbs while demonstrating curve construction. 100 in the context of comparing the curves would be 100% 1RM. They way I laid out the curves is how they would look scaled to 100% of their individual max. The difference is, the sprinter curve plotted on an absolute basis in lbs would extend far far beyond the endurance specialist in terms of raw performance and then at some point, the curves would cross and the endurance specialist would be on top. This is exactly the situation with me and my good buddy Seb I featured in my last climbing video. He is a sprinter in climbing. He has world class grip at 1RM but recoils in horror at my 20 move projects. He just owns it and doubles down on power training. We don't know where his exponential transition occurs, because when we tested him well into my exponential 1RM, he was still linear 😂
I have a hangboard, but not a pulley system. Is it ok if I do this 60s rep feet on the ground and autoregulate intensity? It's difficult to know how hard to pull at start, I feel like I start very light and towards the end of 60s I kind of adjust and pull more.
Just a question about the difference between isometrics and normal weight training. Wouldn't what you labelled as power be strength in traditional weightlifting? And what you labelled strength be called hypertrophy? if you are linking it to 1 rep max. Really loving the past 2 videos btw, I genuinely think they are one of the most useful training videos on RUclips
Power and endurance are functional concepts. Hypertrophy is a not, it's a term that just means size increase. Strength is the direct functional implication of increased muscle cross sectional area. Strength is directly related to muscles cross sectional area. Hypertrophy is the underlying mechanism of strength gains. The way these terms are mixed and used in climbing, bodybuilding and elsewhere is confusing. I was going for consistency and clarity. A powerful climber would be someone who can do an impressive single move. A strong climber would be a climber who can do a difficult 10 move problem. A climber with good endurance is someone who can sustain high output over a longer period of exertion. You are correct, what I called strength, is the work zone body builders target for hypetrophy. The thing is, they get strong. They just don't care about that, so they talk in terms of their goal - hypetrophy, which is really just the underlying mechanism of strenght gains. Power would still be power though. Any load heavier than 85 RM (5 reps) is considered power lifting, which corresponds to an isometric hold of 35 seconds.
@@Mobeta Great video! Thx for the clarification, i got confused by that as well. As far as i learned, the term hypertrophy is not used because bodybuilder use it, but because the body adapts by adding more cells. So the muscle gets more myofibrils. It is true that you get stronger by that, but i would argue that you also get stronger by IK training or Max Strenght training. Size of the muscle combined with the skill to activate more of your fibers equals strength. So training hypertrophy or IK both end up increasing the force you are able to output. I like your concept and will try to implement it. But i would recomend you to use the more medical nomenclatura. Besides that. Im really looking forward to your next video! I always aked myself why the finger strenght routines never include hypertrophy but always focus on IK and Max Strength. (I mean sure you wanna have the most strenght with as little weight as possible, but there are limits to that). Therefore I think implementing the Power Curve to find out in wich area you are lacking is a great idea! I have been searching a lot for something like this! (sry english isnt my first language)
Yes, well summarized: "Size of the muscle combined with the skill to activate more of your fibers equals strength." This is why functional athletes should train for power, strength and endurance. Climbing is an extreme strength to weight ratio sport, but there is no limit to the size of forearms you want for rock climbing. The weight here is negligible and all adaptation is net positive. Go for the biggest forearms humanly possible. The focus on max strength training is because the gains here are really easy. Everyone wants the quick gains. If people don't talk about hypertrophy, it's most likely one of two reasons. They may be a genetically gifted athlete unable to really assess effectiveness. Alternatively, they haven't actually rigorously trained their own recommendations long enough to find out the flaws, and their audience has similarly moved on to the next trendy topic.
60-180s for strength is a wide range, do you have any recommendations about what end of that spectrum might have the best chance of being effective, or is it more goal based?
It is a wide range because the effective range for hypertrophy has been found to be very wide in research. You will get fiber type hypertrophy that cooresponds to the stimulus intensity. Where you choose to focus your training will indeed depend on your personal goals. Personally, I train the entire curve, but with special focus around my climbing goals.
Can we get some recommendations for exercises to train in the strength zone please? My power is good, I can get endurance, but struggle to make gains in the strength area
I empathise. I got stuck on this plateau myself for a few years. Training exclusively heavy resulted in good power. Unfortunately, climbs are often 10 hard moves, not 1. I needed extreme rehearsal, had short sessions and needed to climb short lines or uncomfortably fast to make up for poor strength.
I'm trying to pinch a pinch block for 60 - 180 seconds but I'm giving up the rep from discomfort more than failing. The block is starting to slip towards the end but it's hard to tell if I'm being honest with myself. Do you get used to the pain and more patient? Am I getting close enough to failure for gains to happen?
Pinch block is an difficult implement in terms of ergonomics. We will cover pinch in episode 5, but neither me nor Seb train on pinch block for reasons of poor ergonomics.
Hold time to failure. 60 seconds corresponds to 75% RM or 8 reps in a concentric-eccentric training with a typical rep speed. This is in the ideal zone for hypertrophy, however, lighter loads are equally effective for hypertrophy - albeit more Type I fibres. That's why I gave a range 60 - 120, this cooresonds to 8 - 20 reps (45 - 75% RM) which is very effective for hypertrophy. Unlike body builders, or power lifters, we are functional athletes, so we want every gain available.
75% RM = 75% of 1 rep max. 1 rep max is as the name suggests. Other strength athletes talk about rep ranges as surrogate for %RM out of convenience, but this is fraught with inconsistency. There's no such thing as a rep in isometric training, so %RM is really how we should be always discussing hangs.
I didn't use one source for this. I've studied this material for years. If you have access to a medical university library, the uptodate article on exercise physiology covers all this material in a highly technical but concise overview. The other main sources are primary research on strength training and hypertrophy. A pubmed search and lit review. I reviewed dozens of papers. Also years of gathering and analyzing my performance data and graphing the relationship.
how do you know the time needed for endurance, strength, and power assuming that the intensity is correct? is there some research done to show that those are the time constraints for each type of training or is it through experience?
Exactly. A large amount of research has been done on optimal zones for the desired goals. Ideally you'd know your own power curve because the research looks at %RM rather than times. I used my curve as a starting point.
Omg dude this thing is gold! I’ve been doing all my training wrong. But even when I do bench press and shit for 8 reps I may even not go above 60 seconds for the TUT. 😢
Thanks! You're fine with 8 reps for bench press. TUT isn't the way to do the conversion - go by %RM. Cadence matters a lot, but 8 reps is classically a ~75% RM using typical conversions which is a 56 second isometric (on my power curve). That's well into strength range for stimulating hypertrophy.
@Mobeta thanks for the reply. That's quite a long hang. I'm confused in how that compares to what weightlifters do to build muscle, they seem (my limited understanding) to do sets of quite few reps at close to max (>80 % of max)
It is actually in the optimal range for hypertrophy. People have a hard time understanding how to convert isometrics to isotonic training. I did cover this in Episode 2, but not explicitly as it wasn't really the focus. Episode 6 is where this will be covered in detail
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but 2 points seem confusing to me: 1. Training for strength being between 60-180s. To move into a more clear-cut strength space such as weight lifting, you would never see someone deadlifting for over a minute attempting to get strength gains - the load is just far too low. 2. The power training zone being positioned at the highest weight section of the graph. Perhaps “power” is simply an overloaded term, but in the context of climbing training, it’s usually used to refer to explosive movements: the speed at which a movement can be made. The logic then goes that power training should be done well away from your maximum load. When at or near your max, movements become slow and hard fought, training strength instead of power. To effectively train power, it then stands to reason that you must drop the weight significantly to allow rapid movement. I suspect I am misunderstanding something here, and would be extremely excited to find out what!
@Mobeta, it’s possible that I’ve missed the answer to q.2. in the comments, but I genuinely have tried to find it. Regarding q.1. from what I can understand in the comments, my deadlift example would be explained on your power curve in the following manner. If you do 8 reps, then that is 80% (for the sake of argument) of 1RM. Taking 80% of the maximum weight you can lift/hang, should therefore land you in the equivalent strength range on the curve and fall between 60-180s. The cognitive dissonance I’m having is that I have measured my max possible lift using a strain gauge (Tindeq). I have also done 80% lifts of that weight and can say with absolute certainty that it falls so short of the 60-180s range that it’s not even close. That’s the root of my confusion. If I were to use a weight that I could hold for 60-180s, it would be FAR lower than the equivalent 8 or so reps in the world of weight lifting. It would result in the hypothetical equivalent of recommending 20 reps for training your deadlift strength.
@Veloxzr 8 reps is a 75% RM but this ofcourse varies by cadence and individual. You should be able to do 70% RM for ~60 seconds. If you can not, then you have easy gains on the table. Train in this zone to harvest. The optimal hypertrophy range in classic lifting extend from 8 reps all the way up to 25+ reps. I provided a wide range for this reason. Where you choose to focus will depend on your goals.
@Veloxzr no problem. On the power question, power climbing ranges from ansolute peak power, to sustained bursts in the sub 30 second range. I use power in the sense of power lifting training zone. Training adaptation in this zone cooresponds to power lifting Training. Peak power output as you describe should be trained on rock or wall and not with grippers at all. It is fully context specific.
Hang time to failure, for your first rep. This determines the weight to use for subsequent reps, even though hang times will be shorter. The specifics of reps and weekly volume is a separate topic.
30 seconds is 85% 1RM (5reps) on my curve. This is the core fundamental training zone for power. 85%RM is foundational in training for power. I did specify
so, you are saying hangs below 30s are for "power" and I find that weird because p=m*v and there is like 0 velocity in a deadhang. Every other fingerstrength protocol I've seen is around 10s for max hangs / strength, hanging for more than +60s is very very uncomfortable on elbows, shoulders, etc.. this video has an interesting approach and I can't wait to see the next one in this series
I'm not here to say every other finger strength protocol is correct or not. I'm just explaining what training in that zone targets physiologically. If that lines up with your goals, and you are making gains, stick with it!! For people who plateau, get injured, or have climbing goals than involve problems longer than 30 seconds, I'm providing information to aid in that journey. Heavy training is FAR more injury prone. Not even close. There is no debate here, anyone telling you otherwise doesn't understand basic training principles. They need to go back to medical school. Your shoulders and elbows get far more stress with heavy weights. In order to train with longer times, your weights drop significantly. I can assure you, 60+ is very comfortable. If not, your exercise selection is wrong. Using too easy of an implement is the issue. This will be covered in future episodes. I use "power" for simplicity and clarity. People understanding what powerful climbing is. Power lifting is also a very well established sport. It is the power lifting zone. The physiology and training principles are exactly the same as power lifting. Not analogous. Identical. Same goes for cycling. They call it a power curve because they measure output in watts. I borrowed the terminology because it is exactly the same curve. In retrospect, I should have called the curve itself a force curve, because it's confusing the engineers in the audience 😅
So you mean that all the work I do at the hangboard, far below 30 seconds, is pretty useless🧐? You are like it train your nerves but not your muscles? Can't wait fot the next video😉
Not at all, you'll get crazy fast gains. Eventually though, you'll plateau or you'll find the gains aren't translating to longer problems. Then it's time to reasses training goals.
Yup,, when you've maxed out power, you need a bigger engine. Strength training is MUCH slower gains, but has a higher overall potential for your climbing. Strength is how your projects turn into warmup.
@@emilianovezzani8751 This is what I do. I'll discuss this more in the future, but in summary, I train all 3 zones concurrently. I shift my focus depending on season and current climbing goals, but I'm always training all zones.
@@Mobeta No legit I've just been doing power training for like five years haha. I can almost do a one arm hang from a big crimp but I can't climb shit.
Welcome to the club. I got stuck in that exact rut so long I almost quit. RTK was my breakthrough send 9 YEARS after kleos after I finally figured out what I was doing wrong.
Yes. Bedtime redlight therapy or melatonin supplementation can help with a cutting cycle. Anesthesia for nightly sleep is not advisable. Please see Micheal Jackson's wikipedia entry for details.
I'm not sure I agree about the order of fiber type usage. Fibers are recruited according to the Hennemans Size Principle so those larger motor units aren't used unless there's enough force required to elicit their recruitment. I bring this up not to call you out but curious if there's something unqiue about the forearm flexors that I'm missing....
You are correct. My explanation was a little confusing. I wasn't discussing the order of fiber recruitment. I was talking about performance limiting contributions, from heavy loads to light. I was making it analogous to energy systems and thinking in terms of the contributions to the power curve, which was the concept I was building towards.
The interest in this topic has exceeded my expectations, and audience response has been amazing! I'm going to do a follow-up video to expand and clarify common questions people are having. I have answered in detail lots of great question in the comments. If you'd like something else clarified in the next video, please leave a comment.
I have question! So you mention that dynamic training was not practical for hand training and would like to hear your thoughts about finger curls with barbells or dumbbells to target the extrinsic muscles.
Additionally, a regular protocol for hypertrophy would be 8 reps of finger curls to failure. However, when I measure time under tension. Completing a set of 8 reps falls below 30seconds, meaning it would not cause increases on muscle contractile units. So I’m confused about the discrepancy in between known protocols for hypertrophy (8reps) and the time under tension needed you described.
Thank you for the amazing content ! Super clear and informative. 🔥
@Mobeta First, thank you for the innovative training content! The series really has been informative and has me reconsidering a lot of conventional climbing training wisdom. Could you explain your methodology for translating time under tension till failure to %RM like 10 seconds to 96% RM as you replied to another comment? Did you derive the 60-180s strength zone from %RM range translated to time under tension till failure? My vague understanding is that loading a weight of 96% of maximum voluntary contraction would map to different time under tension till failure on different power curves.
@briansuh4885 Your welcome! Correct on both accounts. That is the method and also correct, different people have different curves. I used my curve values to give people a starting point. The range is broad anyway, so it will work for people.
This is really good stuff. I haven't been this excited about a climbing series in a while. I actually can't wait until the next video.
Sincerely love to hear it!
@@Mobeta Very much agree! Very informative, concrete and condensed! Big fan here from Denmark :)
I very very much look forward to your training suggestions.
Looking forward to the content! I subscribed instantly, good work :)
Thank you so much for putting together this video. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated, can’t wait to see the next episode
Thanks for the encouragement. This series is by audience request - so I'm glad you enjoyed it.
This is perhaps the best explanation of the topic I have ever seen. Thank you.
My pleasure. This information is typically presented piecemeal, which is very confusing. A reasonable synthesis was my goal with this video.
This was amazing. I've never seen so much information condensed into such a short time.
Thank you, that was the goal. To provide an understandable synthesis of a large complex topic.
Finally someone who covers training in the scientific/nerdy/analytic way that I think about it as well - can’t wait for the next video
Thanks! I set out to make the video series I would have wanted for myself 10 years ago. Since I don't have a time machine to enjoy it myself, I'm glad I found someone who can.
I would love to hear more about your journey from trying to find concentric/eccentric exercises for hand muscles to settling on isometric training. I've been on a kick designing my own isotonic exercises for grip, and I'm wondering why you ended up deciding that road isnt worth going down.
Also, thank you so much for this series! Glad I discovered your channel, and your other non-training stuff is very cool as well.
I designed and extensively trained on more than a dozen machines aimed at isotonic training of targeted hand anatomy. The issues vary by machine. They all required meticulous technique not cheat. Slow rep cadence as well which is not ideal. Basically impossible to train power zone. Insurmountable issues with ergonomics. Issues with isolating muscles and training overlap. I did have acceptable results, in terms of climbing performance, pushing into consolidated V11 climbing from a V9 starting point, but I plateaued. Ultimately, I needed a way forward, and with 3d printing I was able to develop tools much more ergonomic and targeted that allow for much higher volume and intensity which I need at this stage to progress. I can now train hard every single day to failure with excessive volume without so much as a tweak!
Edit: For a bit more context, I chased that isotonic training dragon for over 5 years and had something like 20 prototypes at the peak. As I concluded in this video - the simple fact is hands are isometric gripping machines.
@@Mobetawill this be a part of the video series? Super interested to know ablut using 3D printing to create custom tools. I would ask whether more specific grip holds are better because of specificity but I guess the point of training is to generate adaptations and we can make and train specific use of that later in the wall
You get it completely 🎯 You'd be surprised how people struggle with that concept. Strength training should maximally stimulate the muscle in the most ergonomically friendly way possible. Neurological recruitment and skill are 100% context sensitive - train on the rock for these.
Grip tools will be covered. Was going to be next, but the amount of questions this generated may warrant another power curve video.
@@Mobeta Would be fun to see a video on this 5 year struggle at some point.
@@Mobeta I would like a deep dive into concentric/eccentric and your journey. I think anyone coming from a normal gym / weight lifting background like me will initially want to train in the way they know works
Holy shit that was the best explanation I've seen of why projecting helps so much! Super intuitive, thanks!!
Glad you like it! I spent a fair bit of time animating that graph, so I'm glad it landed 😁
This series is world class. I would love to see you cover more specific protocols for strengthening the different muscles and tendons related to grip. I feel like this could be an entire channel worth of content. Thank you for all the time and energy you're putting into this.
That is high praise, thank you for saying so. The online training space is not for me though.
Perfect level of abstraction and delivery of information. Excellent! Thanks for the video and knowledge!
Thank you! Simplifying a complex topic is a difficult task, glad I could hit that sweet spot.
The way you approach and explain these concepts is exemplary. So excited to hear there is even more on the way!
Glad it was helpful - I'm working on the next episode as I type this!
Man, I was waiting so impatiently for this video, and now the next one! Thank you so much for this clear information!
These videos are amazing. I haven’t seen these concepts described in such a clear and concise way before. Can’t wait for the rest.
Thanks! I have also found in that this information tends to be presented in a very confusing fashion. My goal with these videos was to provide a synthesis.
This is great information! Way more people should see this. Excited for the coming episodes!
I'm honored you feel that way. I'm just sharing the information I wish I had 10 years ago. The small audience that is here is perfect from my perspective.
This is by far the best explanation of this topic I've ever found on yt, concise and crystal clear. Please keep the series going, it's GOLD
Thanks so much! I'm working on it!
I got back into climbing about a year ago and I tried to be deliberate and form a training plan. In everything I looked at, nothing came close to how clear and actionable this is. You cover how to asses your own strength with the curve, how to target and train each section of the curve, and you explain exactly what parts of your body go into the functions of each section. I never felt like I fully understood how to approach grip training until now. Thanks a ton!
Glad it came together for you! It's not easy to see the forest for the trees. There is so much focus on the trees in most online exercise information it's easy to get lost.
What a great explantion. As a gripsport athlete I am just fascinated.
I love the way you explain these concepts not only in the video, but also while replying to comments.
I definitely learned a lot and I can't wait for the rest of this series!
Thanks! I put a lot of effort into replying, glad you appreciated it!
that was so great! thank you very very much!!! i never understood this completely until you picked the important things and sorted them. btw, speaking seems a little in a rush sometimes, but maybe that's just me ;) looking forward to part 3!!!
Thanks! Your comments are always appreciated - that was wonderfully delivered feedback. What you say is almost certainly true - I listen to podcasts at up to 3x and I use 1.5x to fall asleep! When I'm excited, my speech definitely gets fast.
@@Mobeta :)
I like your perspective and how you are laying down these fundamentals, excited to learn more.
Absolutely fantastic content! The way you bridge an in depth understanding with colloquial terms makes this so easy to digest. Can't wait for more
Thanks! I'm was taking a risk putting information in this format on youtube. Simplifying a topic always invites criticism on fine points, but the response has been great.
ok now this series has really peaked my interest! really want to see the rest of what you've planned for this. It's really insightful to have an MD's perspective and breakdown of what, how and why to train certain ways or for certain targets in climbing!
Glad I could share a unique perspective!
Amazing! Looking forward to episode 3!
these videos really are appreciated. So interesting.
I love the depth of information. It's much more interesting understanding our bodies and what the thresholds are. Where to expand your exercise if you want specific growth. This is the second channel today that has given me some really interesting food for thought as a new climber. Thank you!
That's awesome! I had few resources besides primary research in my training journey which led to many garden paths and distractions.
Wow, incredibly insightful. Can't wait for the next video!
Super high quality!
good video and good info, subbed, great to see passionate and informative content on the tube
Thanks, appreciated!
So good! I impatiently wait for the next episode! 😊
You're a gem. As a beginner I feel lucky to be able to learn from your experience, and hopefully avoid building poor training habits!
I could do an entire episode in this series on my training mistakes! It would be a long video 😂
@@Mobeta That would be PERFECT
Thank you for this very clear and well crafted presentation.
It is not clear to me what kind of exercise should I choose to train strength and not power. Should I hangboard for more than a minute?
I personally find power endurance on Moonboard extremely effective (20-24 movements with any foot). But it may not be too specific.
Thank you in advance for your dedication
The same exercise, just change hold time. We'll get in specifics in episode 6.
I can't wait for episode 6! 😂 Amazing series man!
Very interesting and well presented! Look forward to learning more about how you've come apply this in your training.
Thanks! Making this series has been fun, I'm looking forward to finishing it
Loved the video! But I‘m somewhat confused that it feels like you suggest 60-180s hangs. Or would it be something like 7-3 Repeaters with 8-12 Reps for an effective hang time of >60 Seconds per Set?
Hold times are first hang to failure. Subsequent hangs use that weight. Subsequent times will depend on rest. There is a lot of variability in how you structure the specific programming.
@@Mobeta Hello, could you elaborate on the strength training range? It's easy for me to pick an appropriate weigh that I can hang from for 60-180s but should I really be hanging to failure? Instinctively I was thinking that I could pick this level of weight then do say 4 sets and 10 second hangs that would feel quite easy. But your reply seems to imply that I'm going to failure and potentially hanging for 1-3 minutes in a set? Any clarity would be greatly appreciated.
@@Chris-hz8lj Your TEST hang is to failure. Working sets should be taken close to failure but always try to avoid actually hitting failure whenever possible because it increases injury risk and exponentially increases recovery time. You're thinking a bit too black and white and you need to be a bit more flexible in your programming. These are guidelines not rules, if you are working in the 50-80% 1rm effort range, trying hard, being consistent, and have progressive overload, you will make gains. 8 reps of 7-3 repeats will probably allow you to use a weight at like 85-90% of your 1rm which is a very high intensity.
If you are doing 7-3 repeaters you will need to do more sets or increase the weight a little bit because you are getting 3s of rest every rep. I would pick a slightly higher rep count (12-15 reps of 7-3 repeaters) and when you can do 3-5 sets of that, increase the weight.
@@ComputerManDanMiller This makes a lot of sense. I really appreciate the reply.
Do you have any recommendations on whether I should do this before or after board climbing? Seems like doing this before and aiming for the strength range would double as my warm up and strength training.
Skill work first. Strength train after.
This is an absolutely wonderful exploration and I can't wait until the next video. As a physicist, I really appreciate the time taken to make the animated graphs + drawings as they massively help understanding.
To clarify, are you talking about lifting a particular weight for e.g., 60-180 seconds *in a single hang*, or across the session/sets/something else?
Cheers for this excellent work!
A physicist, oh boy, thank you for being gracious about my colloquial use of the term power 😅 Correct, the curve is max hang to absolute failure for first rested attempt of the session. The corresponding weight is what I use for subsequent reps in the target zone.
I’ve also been stuck in the power rut and recently discovered that strength training is the way out. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on structuring on the wall sessions with an eye toward strength. Loving this series!
Great to hear you found your way out! I spent 5 years in that rut, so I know the struggle. I am exclusively an outdoor climber, so wall routines are outside my area of experience or knowledge.
This is a fantastic series so far, thank you!
Thanks for the great content! I'm interested in learning more about the training time under each zone defined in this video. For example, in the strength zone of 60-180s, is that the total time per training exercise with rests in between, or is it based on per repetition? Does longer (say, 5-10 min) versus shorter (1-3 min) rest time between reps /sets affect the metabolic system that's trained? How could the time translate into workout reps? This is a really interesting video, power zone reminds me of max hang and strength reminds me of repeater hangs.
Your welcome! The wide power zone reflects the wide training zone known to be effective for stimulating hypertrophy / strength. Where you train in the zone will reflect the relative specialisation of the gains. Training at 180 will be a bias towards Type 1 fiber hypertrophy and metabolic adaptations. Training at 60 will be biased towards Type II hypertrophy and fiber type switching. The zone is defined by the weight you can do for a rested hold to complete failure. That defines the weight you should use. How you structure the workout is a matter of preference, as long as you are taking it to failure.
This video is brilliant. So excited for the next one
The amount of useful info in just the two episodes so far is insane, definitely my no.1 climbing youtuber.
you use power to describe the
Correct. There are a million ways this complex topic gets confusing, so I was going for clarity and consistency. Technically, from a physics use of the term, power output in isometric exercise is always 0. I'm used the term power for 2 reasons. 35 seconds is 85% RM (5 reps) which is considered the power lifting zone in weight lifting. The corresponding physiological adaptations in both groups of athletes - climbers and power lifters - working at this intensity are the same. The other reason, I was using functional terms. We would call someone who can do a hard single move a powerful climber. This makes intuitive sense for a non-technical person in the audience.
@Mobeta tysm for the clarification, looking forward to the next video
@@Mobetahow do you do the conversion isometric tut reps? If I recall correctly, in Overcoming Gravity Steven Low argues for a rough conversion of 2s iso = 1 rep, which is why I’ve been training in the 10-12s range for max hangs. But here I see you argue for a much higher conversion of around 5/6s = 1 rep
Steven's approximations are inaccurate in the extreme. As Steven explains in his book, he created his framework logically from first principles. He created a framework that worked for his training, but really shouldn't be used by anyone not on his training program as it has no basis in exercise science. Steven wasn't aware of the concept of power curves. A much more correct way to convert from reps to isometrics is %RM and the corresponding hold time on the power curve. The curve varies by muscle, athlete, and training status. Just using your example - a 10 second isometric is a 96% RM or HIGHER. This is an absurdly heavy load to equate to 5 reps (85%RM) as Steven would suggest. This is wildly inaccurate on the linear portion of the curve. On the exponential portion, he's not even in the same zip code.
@@Mobeta Yes I think he clarifies that it does not hold for higher rep ranges, just for the lower ones. But I'm curious how you define 1RM in isometric holds. It seems like you need a basic unit of time no?
Thank you for sharing your knowledge !
This is great. Given me a lot to think about and apply to my own training
Really concisely stated, this is fantastic content. Looking forward to seeing the exercise selection video. I think the argument of the classic hangboarding advice that you do mostly max holds at around 10s is that this covers the >30s “power” range in a safe and controlled way, while the 60-180s “strength” and 2-4min “endurance” are not really injury-prone because they are dealing with lower intensity, so you can just get those from climbing.
Training at 10 seconds is a 96% RM (even higher because isometrics generate more tension). I encourage people to look at the primary literature with regards to the effectiveness of training at 96% RM or above. To your second point, I completely agree, training isn't really necessary until you are climbing V8 - V10 where people with typical genetics hit their natural limit. Everyone hits a point they are unable to progress further without structured training. The problem with just climbing is that it is impossible to get consistent loads to failure in the optimal ranges across all functional hand anatomy through climbing.
My impression was that the 10s max hangs protocol was really popularized by the Eva Lopez studies. I've always been suspicious that these studies' greatest flaw is that they only last a few months. During this time I would expect recruitment gains to be most important, but over the long term I would expect hypertrophy gains to be more important. And longer duration/higher rep exercises (such as the "rock prodigy" repeaters protocol) are generally shown to maximize hypertrophy (for other muscles at least). As mentioned above, climbers mixing a bunch of climbing with their hangboarding probably get a decent hypertrophy stimulus (though maybe not an optimal stimulus). I can't wait for the exercise selection video, I hope you touch on repeaters vs. long single hangs.
thanks for this information. appreciate the work
Thanks for the support!
I really love this series so far. I haven't felt excited to watch climbing training content in a bit. I love how the approach is scientific.
Quick question: if I want to train in the strength zone, do I convert my pickup training from simply lifting weights off the ground to lifting and then holding for 5 to 10 seconds? Would this be better done using a force gauge (and no weights) instead?
@aldais16 Convert to lifting and holding for 60 seconds 🤯 Force guages don't have much role in training unless you live in a van or on a boat.
Really great, I do wish you could expand the content to rope climbers as well. Even if these need to be noted separately or handled as a different topic.
I'd have to start rope climbing 😅 You'll definitely want to hit that endurance zone. Boulders think they are training hard with 10 s. 240s to failure takes MUCH more mental fortitude. Training for anerobic endurance is no joke. In research studies they found equivalent hypertrophy with lighter loads, but more athletes vomited!
@@Mobeta haha yeah going for hypertrophy gains at 240s is silly, too mentally taxing. But I was thinking more about standard aerobic gains ie angiogenesis, changes in mitochondrial density, and fiber type. Maybe its not your area of expertise but I feel like endurance adaptations and thus how to train for them optimally is not well understood in climbing. If you did have a point of view, or could use your background to better understand the subject, that would be greatly appreciated.
As you say, it is not well understood. It is impossible to compare the programming variables and possible permutations. There is an art to training for advanced athletes. You won't get much fiber type switching or hypertrophy at 240, but this is the optimal zone targeted in other sports for anerobic endurance (120 - 130 FTP). I exclusively boulder, but I do a session at 240 once every 2 weeks specifically for improved work capacity, endurance and recovery from the metabolic improvements you mentioned. I fastidiously track my power curve, and I've raised my FTP significantly.
This is such quality content 😍
Perhaps this is already a little too specific. But when is the optimum time for long duration hangs? After a bouldering session? 3 - 5 sets 60+ ? Are they very safe, especially after a bouldering session? How long should you stick with them to achieve results? At least 2 months? Phenomenal content maybe the questions will be answered in upcoming videos?
Long hangs are very safe as the loads are lower. After a bouldering session is an ideal time for your strength training. Stick with them for life to achieve optimal results. Rate of performance gain depends on age, genetics, and level. In 6 months you should be able to notice an appreciable difference. A V-grade (~10%) every year is doable. Hard to prescribe volume, as it's individual, but 3-5 sets is a good starting point. We'll discuss this in detail in episode 6.
Thank you for the detailed answer, that is very helpful. I must once again praise this channel. It's a real treasure, thank you very much.
Patiently waiting for episode 3!!! I’ve tried to look through the comments and don’t see a recommendation for power curve testing. There are a ton of data points on your graph. Do you have a simple formula? Say test 1RM, then drop 50% and test max hold/hang, repeat at 40% or rough guess until the 2minute mark is broken? Thank you for the content.
Holds are done to completely failure and are very taxing. For an accurate curve, holds must be done fully rested. An hour rest between minimum. The data points on my graph each represent a single training session over the course of a year. The dispersion is from day to day variation in performance. Simple formula is whatever is going to be your work zone for that session, start the training session with a hang to failure, and record this value. 3 data points at 5 curve locations produces a very accurate result. So 15 training sessions.
very informative; much appreciated
Nice to see a fellow MD who enjoys rock climbing. I cannot get any of my colleagues to believe their hands are not at risk climbing. Maybe they will be encouraged by your
Videos!
Thanks for the methodical, clear and decisive description!
How can I obtain your device for flexer strength?
Thanks and quite the opposite - strong hands in anesthesia saves lives! I live with a hand surgeon and she's not worried about my climbing 😁 I make a small number as a hobby, check mobeta.ca in December for details.
Thank you for your in-depth video. I wonder what you think about training with a power meter, i.e. no hang training? I've personally seen good results from it, but I'm sure it's going into the next video. Another question - what do you think of "overcoming isometrics", where you curl your fingers into the edge instead of resisting the opening of the hand? Thirdly, what do you think of the uneven/ergonomic edge types and are they important? I feel like some edges are definitely better for my joints than others due to twisting. Thank you, looking forward to more videos!
Thanks for the questions - this is basically the plot line of my next video, so no spoilers 😁
Amazing! Building the topic from scratch from anatomy through basic principles, keeping it short, I love it 👍. The discussion is great as well.
I'm curious about a relation between Critical Force curve and Power curve, or are they different concepts? What are pros and cons of using a power curve over critical force curve, and repeaters vs hang to failure?
Thanks, and looking forward for the next series.
It's the same thing. In retrospect, I should have used the term force curve instead of power, as it is more correct. The word critical is added to place a special emphasis on "critical force" which is just another term for lactate threshold.
@@Mobeta Thx for the clarification. For few moths since I bought Tindeq I've been looking at the linear decrease within each hang time of critical force, which corresponds to the linear part of your power curve. (assuming switching axes) This makes perfectly sense now.
I also try to overcome a plateau after >30years of climbing, and I also started with anatomy together with analyzing CF and max hangs for different grip types. I'm thinking in similar way trying to balance grip types and individual fingers. So I'm really looking forward to next videos...
Correct, I've switch the axis, because the dependent variable is weight. Having a curve go to infinity horizontally on X axis is not intuitive.
Hopefully I can share something that benefits you. It sounds like we are on a similar journey similar - I'm over 40 and 20 years in and still chasing gains.
@@Mobeta 😀 yeah, the same journey. I'm 49 and getting close to climb 8c again after years. The key for me seems to extend the exercise duration over 60s to what you call the strength zone.
There are too many variables/factors to optimize, it is hard to find the 'principal components in that multidimensional space' from the math point of view. It seems for me that you pointed out those most important.
@@igorcerovsky6679 Thanks! My profession is taking infinitely complex physiology, pathological and pharmacology variables and distilling them down to a working actionable set under time pressure with life or death consequences. Over and over again. If my working model is wrong, reality lets me know immediately. I can't help but apply that approach to my thinking about climbing. You could say I'm a professional simplifier 😄
I have been a training addict myself for the past years, tried so much from personal coaches to Lattice and I am really curious to see what type of training exercises you suggest in the next vid. One question that came up immediately after watching the current video: Would you recommend training all three areas of the power curve at once in order to improve max. finger strength?
Yes. There are many ways to periodize this strategy - my preferred is undulating. My partner prefers block.
Could you cover where tendon recovery / growth fits into this, or is that an entirely independent system?
A proper discussion of tendons would be its own topic. However, the main takeaway is that from a training stimulus perspective, tendons will grow and adapt along side muscle tissue, but more slowly. Most tendon injuries occur in the early stages of a training journey. High intensity is by far the biggest culprit, followed by bad ergonomics and then excessive volume.
@Mobeta thank you. Hope you will dive into the topic in a future episode. Myself and other beginners are struggling with injuries because we're coming from a different movement disciplines and our tendons cannot keep up with our relatively faster progress. Will try moving back on the power curve and train for muscle adaptation for now, thanks for sharing your knowledge
@@wongpeiyi I was in your position early in my training journey and unfortunately had to learn the hard way - dozens of injuries and long plateaus. What you propose is exactly how I would handle the situation. You will still make amazing gains since beginners have much faster adaptation and larger amounts of absolute potential remaining.
Anxious for the next vid! Are you saying that the time under tension should not be broken into reps of repeaters? eg a 30 second TUT would be a 30 second hang instead of 3 x 7:3 repeaters? From my understanding, not many folks have explored longer duration isometrics for anything other than injury recovery. Also, wouldn't longer isometrics make the connective tissue more pliable when we want stiffness for better force transfer from the muscle? Anyway, excited for the third installment!
Glad you enjoyed it. There are many mainstream misconceptions with regards to isometric training.
For clarification, when you say train for strength 60-180s.
Does this mean you hold 1 rep for 60-180 seconds?
Would love to see an example of how you train. Maybe a top 5 exercise with reps/sets/rest.
Thank you for the videos. This has become one of my favorite climbing channels.
Correct. Good idea for a video in winter training season. I'll do this.
@@Mobeta thank you. Because of these videos, I plan on visiting next year!
@leon-do cool! If you have any questions to help plan your trip, drop me a line. Email on my free online guidebook website, which you'll definitely want to checkout.
Would love for you to go over how you would train in the 3 different areas and how you would use somthing like a fixed edge with tindeq to train.
This was meant to be next video. I'll probably do another on power curves and training zones to clarify questions from comments first, but it's coming
Awsome, cant wait @Mobeta
That dog was patiently waiting for you to stop explaining, what a good pup 😊
Dogs are the best. A Japanese dog named Hachikō became a national hero for waiting for his owner with such dedication.
Finally a good video about training for climbing. I have always been confused on how long I should be hanging. So I'm pumped to learn about power curves. Can't wait for the nex video, nj!
Question: Are thoses handheld type grip trainers and good concentric option? I feel like they should be using the same muscles.
Thanks! Glad it helped clarify things for you. I found this very confusing as well when starting out.
I'm not sure exactly what hand held grippers you are referring to. If you mean spring grippers, I did make good prgoess using them but there are issues. The jumps in weight are much too high so you end up owning a dozen of them. They also don't train index finger at all which is a major problem. They cause strain on knuckles from twisting action and are prone to tweaks. Finally, they don't train FDP adequately.
This shit slaps, very epic, very nice
2:04, another way, "All happy families are alike..."
stuff like this video is why the internet is so amazing, even considering the preponderance of ads and useless "content".
My takeaway is that perhaps I should adjust my hangboard protocol a bit. Right now I do 5 second holds at +50% body weight on the 20mm edge. 5 reps total with about 3 minutes in between reps at the end of a climbing session, and I go once a week. I think I'll try adding in the same thing, but with increased duration and reduced weight, aiming at a total of probably 3 minutes of total hang time.
Thanks, I do this as a hobby, so my motivation is just sharing what I'm interested in.
Getting in to specific of programming is a future video in the series. If you are making steady progress in climbing goals, no need to change routine. If your training is plateaued or your V grade isn't increasing - definitely need more strength zone.
Love the Series. Will training for strength require one to lift oder hold the load for whole duration of the 60+ seconds? Or is training the standard repeaters working in the same way (f.e. 6-12 reps with 7 sec on 3 sec off) ? Thanks for the Input. Greets
It's the weight you can hold for a max duration of 60+ seconds. How you structure the workout is up to you, as long as you are taking it to failure multiple times over the course of the session.
I appreciate the video. I have some follow up questions. Here and in the first video the emphasis seems to be on understanding the training of muscles. To my understanding, the forearms are responsible for contracting the fingers, but another significant factor is tendon strength in the fingers. It would be great if you could add some insight on how tendons come into the picture. For example max hangs seem like they would fall into the ‘power’ zone, whereas something like repeaters would likely fall under strength (and maybe endurance depending on how long?). Would you suspect the gains from max hangs to deplete quickly if not training repeaters to increase baseline strength? Or would there be continually gains from max hangs in the form of stronger tendons? Thanks in advance!
I don't want to get into this topic. Most of what is discussed regarding tendons in climbing media is pseudoscience. Utterly false. I don't have an interest in correcting the record on this or getting into drama with people who promote it.
@ do you have any recommendations for sources one could use to learn more about the topic of training tendons and in relation to muscles? Not looking to argue just want to learn more for the sake of training.
@tajjones2053 I understand, your question seemed genuine. It's a common question, wish I could help. Unfortunately, it's gonna be a few years before the climbing community sorts through the tendon topic because the discourse has been side tracked.
When you say “working in the 60 to 120 second range will improve your baseline potential”, how do you do that? Are you talking about long duration hangs? Or something like repeaters with short rest breaks?
Long duration hangs, repeated for sets. Not repeaters in the usual sense.
that apparatus in your garage looks wild!! 1:55
Definitely wild. Years of mad science.
Fantastic video, super concisely explained. One question that I have is: why are training regimes (endurance, strength, power) characterized by actual values in seconds rather than by portions of the power curve (e.g. the first 20% of the linear part, is power 30-100% is strength and 90% all the way to the exponential is endurance)? Can it not be the case that for some people/muscles 30s is already near or in the exponential zone? And for some others 2min still in the middle of the linear portion?
You are 100% correct. The target zones is indeed according to %1RM zones rather than time. A high level athlete should know their power curve, and tailor their training to their own curve. The amount of variation between people's curves is impressive. My buddy Seb (featured in my last climbing video) is a world class grip power athlete and has a an extremely flat curve compared with mine. His training looks significantly different as a result.
The issue is, I covered a huge amount of information in 10 minutes, and I expect that for most people in the audience, this is the first time they are being introduced to the concept of a power curve. By giving approximate times, with large ranges, people can have a starting point for practically engaging with this information. Training in the zones I suggest allows people to start training the 3 fundamental functional zones without having to get out excel and doing regression analysis and 2 months of data collection to construct their curves. Elite athletes should be doing this.
@@Mobeta makes sense. I’ve only measured my forearm power curve by hanging with progressively less weight, but only took one measurement per weight. Would you recommend taking more? Also, how often do you recommend measuring the power curve? How long do modifications to the curve usually take?
You can't do it on the same day is the issue. After a single hang to failure, subsequent hangs are significantly impacted. I shared my real life curves in the video, each dot is a separate training session. There is also a fair dispersion around the curve from performance variation. To get an accurate curve you'd need multiple sessions per data point and multiple curve points all on separate days. I use last 30 results on a rolling basis and it provides very good curves. 15 is still good. I know my curve so I train 5 points. Thats 3 estimates per point. good news is they change very slowly. Faster at first if you are training a new zone for fiest time, but then very slowly. 6 - 12 months is fine after initial adaptation phase.
This is great. I'm pretty sure this is coming in upcoming videos but I'm wondering how this translates to sets & reps for a training protocol.
My guess so far based on what fits with popular training methods is that there are different training methods for the different ranges, i.e. with heavy emphasis on time but not explicitly just time. I'm thinking that training for endurance using density hangs and sub hangs fits the info here pretty well. Also using high weight repeaters and velocity pulls fits this info pretty well depending on your interpretation, i.e. the accumulated time under tension for the workout
@georgeargiriadis112 correct. Repeaters are inefficient from a hypertrophy standpoint, which is why commonly used protocols the only people who success were the ones who were going progress regardless. Most people get stuck at V8 -V10 indefinitely except for the gifted few, when in reality, up to V13 is achievable by anyone.
Does the amount of time under tension have to be in a single go - or does training, for example, ten 10s reps with a few seconds in between have the same effect?
Man… I’m wondering the same thing
The effect will depend on %RM to failure. Training with gaps in between is less efficient. It will signifncaly increase total training time for any given level of intensity. People do this to simulate climbing rather than to optimize training.
hey, I really liked this video....I've been training in that wayyyy lower time under tension area and see some stall out here after a couple months. So I took your advice and switched up to training in the 30-40 second time under tension zone and holy CRAP is it harder. I thought I would be closer to where I'm at but I had to take my 4 rep lifting edge weight and remove 1/3 of it to find a weight I could BARELY manage to pick up and hold for 30 seconds. Does this sound right and now I just start working this weight for 30 second sets 2-3 times a week (lets say probably 2 sets is all I can do 2x/week so 4 sets total?).
This sounds right and I love this comment. I hope this can help kick start a new era in your training journey!
Very interested to see the new episode! Very curious for clarity on what you mean by "60-180s". Are these isometric hang durations for single hangs, or across your entire workout? IE: Multiple sets of 60-90s hangs? Or multiple reps of shorter hangs (10-15s x 6-15 reps) per set? Or are these roughly equivalent or do you mean something else entirely? I look forward to learning more!
Edit: After reading some of your other responses it sounds like you do a session where you find the weight you can hang for 60-75s while fresh. Then you do subsequent hangs with this same weight for as long as you can (just short of failure preferably I assume, similar to weightlifting where going to actual failure has an exponentially higher recovery time than just short of it) for multiple sets. Is this roughly correct?
Also as someone who has been spending the last few months trying to find useful concentric exercises with very mixed success this has brought a whole lot of clarity and saved me a lot of wasted time and effort. I think they definitely still have a place, mostly in warmups and for rehab, as I find they really stimulate bloodflow in a very controllable way.
Your understanding is 100% correct. Hold time to failure on first attempt. Subsequent hang duration is entirely dependant on recovery time. That'll be a video later in the series.
I chased the isotonic dream for 5 years and ~20 machine prototypes. Like in medicine, I can dream of drugs that work by alternative mechanisms, but human physiology and anatomy constrains my dreams to reality.
@Mobeta What are your thoughts on partial ROM training for crimping? Going from a half crimp and contracting it closed. Trying to do full ROM through different grip types just doesn't work well but what about a small ROM within the crimp?
Fellow Atlantic Canadian here, represent!
Would be useful training stimulus for sure. Hard to program, and I wouldn't do it on a flat edge unless you are blessed with very even finger anatomy.
@Mobeta The Lattice MXEdge works really well for it for anyone else interested in trying.
Hi, loving the series.
I have a question about the power curve.
If I want to build strength i need to pull for 60+ seconds. But does it need to be continuous? Or is the classic repeater style 7-3 ok as long as it hits the 60+seconds per set.
Because if it needs to be continuous, i for sure cannot hang from a 14mm edge for 1 minute for the FDP training ahah😅
Ps: can't wait for more episodes
It's the weight you can hold for 60 seconds continuous. There is endless variation in how you decide to structure your training at that intensity - as long as you are taking the weight to absolute failure. I have emphasised repeatedly in this series a major issue with hangboards is people choose hold size based on convenience, not optimal training stimulus. A pulley subtraction setup is mandatory for optimal hangboarding.
@@Mobeta Makes perfect sense. And yeah, seems like I won't be able to use the hangboard at my gym(no pulley), at least for the FDP because of the 50% distal size.
Just another question if that's okay. When you were talking about strength you were also mentioning adding contractile issue, does that mean that the 60+ seconds targets hypertrophy ? ( Just trying to put this in the same context of powerlifting where they do cycles of hypertrophy and power )
Exactly! I avoid using term hypertrophy because it is histological not functional. Hypertrophy research is flawed by chasing size at all costs rather than function because that's what body builders value.
Interesting video and looking forward to the next one
Is there any scientific literature that uses this concept (power curce) in e.g. weight lifting or other strength sports?
For muscle hypertrophy there is, to my knowledge, quite a big amount of research out there. So i guess there a training principles that we as climbers might be able to apply.
Also I am curious what exercises will be suggested. I guess it will not be simply hanging from an edge for >60s. That seems to me like being more applicable to sport climbing and also I have heard isometrics are not the best for maxing hypertrophy.
Also there is still the big issue of specificity to the actual sport. Like hanging on beastmakers edges may only transfer to outdoor crimps to a degree as they often have completely different characteristics. I think understanding hold types and finding good excercises may be important here.
With regards to hypertrophy, muscles are muscles, forearm is no different in this regard. Hypertrophy research applies. Isometrics are indeed inferior as I mention, but I explain at length why we are stuck with them. All research uses the power curve in the form of %RM which amounts to exactly the same thing. They typically use crude formulas for their %RM conversions to reps. Cadence is a huge issue in isotonic training research. The research outlines exactly the ranges for optimal training. They talk in terms of reps out of practical necessity. If they could perfectly control cadence, then TUT would be a much better measure, and they would likely switch to power curves.
The rest will be covered in the next video, with the exception of programming, which is the video after exercise selection.
Really enjoyed this videos contents and approach, thank you and looking forward to more.
One thing I didnt get was the comparison between the sprinter and endurance athlete curves.
The endurance athletes curve looked strictly better?
Wouldn't the sprinter have steep linear with a late exponential. And the endurance have a less steep linesr with an earlier exponential?
I wondered if that would be confusing. 100 on my graph was originally 100 lbs while demonstrating curve construction. 100 in the context of comparing the curves would be 100% 1RM. They way I laid out the curves is how they would look scaled to 100% of their individual max.
The difference is, the sprinter curve plotted on an absolute basis in lbs would extend far far beyond the endurance specialist in terms of raw performance and then at some point, the curves would cross and the endurance specialist would be on top.
This is exactly the situation with me and my good buddy Seb I featured in my last climbing video. He is a sprinter in climbing. He has world class grip at 1RM but recoils in horror at my 20 move projects. He just owns it and doubles down on power training. We don't know where his exponential transition occurs, because when we tested him well into my exponential 1RM, he was still linear 😂
@@Mobeta thanks for the clarification! makes sense now, it's my first time learning about the power curve. That story is great haha
I have a hangboard, but not a pulley system. Is it ok if I do this 60s rep feet on the ground and autoregulate intensity? It's difficult to know how hard to pull at start, I feel like I start very light and towards the end of 60s I kind of adjust and pull more.
@soniniittyniemi You definitely want a pulley system. Feet on ground training is a complete waste of time.
Just a question about the difference between isometrics and normal weight training. Wouldn't what you labelled as power be strength in traditional weightlifting? And what you labelled strength be called hypertrophy? if you are linking it to 1 rep max. Really loving the past 2 videos btw, I genuinely think they are one of the most useful training videos on RUclips
Power and endurance are functional concepts. Hypertrophy is a not, it's a term that just means size increase. Strength is the direct functional implication of increased muscle cross sectional area. Strength is directly related to muscles cross sectional area. Hypertrophy is the underlying mechanism of strength gains.
The way these terms are mixed and used in climbing, bodybuilding and elsewhere is confusing. I was going for consistency and clarity. A powerful climber would be someone who can do an impressive single move. A strong climber would be a climber who can do a difficult 10 move problem. A climber with good endurance is someone who can sustain high output over a longer period of exertion.
You are correct, what I called strength, is the work zone body builders target for hypetrophy. The thing is, they get strong. They just don't care about that, so they talk in terms of their goal - hypetrophy, which is really just the underlying mechanism of strenght gains.
Power would still be power though. Any load heavier than 85 RM (5 reps) is considered power lifting, which corresponds to an isometric hold of 35 seconds.
@@Mobetamakes sense, thank you for explaining it clearly to me ☺️
@@Mobeta Great video! Thx for the clarification, i got confused by that as well.
As far as i learned, the term hypertrophy is not used because bodybuilder use it, but because the body adapts by adding more cells. So the muscle gets more myofibrils. It is true that you get stronger by that, but i would argue that you also get stronger by IK training or Max Strenght training. Size of the muscle combined with the skill to activate more of your fibers equals strength. So training hypertrophy or IK both end up increasing the force you are able to output.
I like your concept and will try to implement it. But i would recomend you to use the more medical nomenclatura.
Besides that. Im really looking forward to your next video! I always aked myself why the finger strenght routines never include hypertrophy but always focus on IK and Max Strength. (I mean sure you wanna have the most strenght with as little weight as possible, but there are limits to that). Therefore I think implementing the Power Curve to find out in wich area you are lacking is a great idea! I have been searching a lot for something like this!
(sry english isnt my first language)
Yes, well summarized: "Size of the muscle combined with the skill to activate more of your fibers equals strength." This is why functional athletes should train for power, strength and endurance. Climbing is an extreme strength to weight ratio sport, but there is no limit to the size of forearms you want for rock climbing. The weight here is negligible and all adaptation is net positive. Go for the biggest forearms humanly possible. The focus on max strength training is because the gains here are really easy. Everyone wants the quick gains. If people don't talk about hypertrophy, it's most likely one of two reasons. They may be a genetically gifted athlete unable to really assess effectiveness. Alternatively, they haven't actually rigorously trained their own recommendations long enough to find out the flaws, and their audience has similarly moved on to the next trendy topic.
60-180s for strength is a wide range, do you have any recommendations about what end of that spectrum might have the best chance of being effective, or is it more goal based?
It is a wide range because the effective range for hypertrophy has been found to be very wide in research. You will get fiber type hypertrophy that cooresponds to the stimulus intensity. Where you choose to focus your training will indeed depend on your personal goals. Personally, I train the entire curve, but with special focus around my climbing goals.
Can we get some recommendations for exercises to train in the strength zone please? My power is good, I can get endurance, but struggle to make gains in the strength area
I empathise. I got stuck on this plateau myself for a few years. Training exclusively heavy resulted in good power. Unfortunately, climbs are often 10 hard moves, not 1. I needed extreme rehearsal, had short sessions and needed to climb short lines or uncomfortably fast to make up for poor strength.
I'm trying to pinch a pinch block for 60 - 180 seconds but I'm giving up the rep from discomfort more than failing. The block is starting to slip towards the end but it's hard to tell if I'm being honest with myself. Do you get used to the pain and more patient? Am I getting close enough to failure for gains to happen?
Pinch block is an difficult implement in terms of ergonomics. We will cover pinch in episode 5, but neither me nor Seb train on pinch block for reasons of poor ergonomics.
Just a quick question. When talking about working it eg strength is from 60-120s. Does this mean total working time in a set or per rep?
I am also curious, although if I had to assume I would guess per set with minimal rest between whatever constitutes a 'rep'
Hold time to failure. 60 seconds corresponds to 75% RM or 8 reps in a concentric-eccentric training with a typical rep speed. This is in the ideal zone for hypertrophy, however, lighter loads are equally effective for hypertrophy - albeit more Type I fibres. That's why I gave a range 60 - 120, this cooresonds to 8 - 20 reps (45 - 75% RM) which is very effective for hypertrophy. Unlike body builders, or power lifters, we are functional athletes, so we want every gain available.
@Mobeta thanks for the explanation, much appreciated
@@Mobetasorry, RM?
75% RM = 75% of 1 rep max. 1 rep max is as the name suggests. Other strength athletes talk about rep ranges as surrogate for %RM out of convenience, but this is fraught with inconsistency. There's no such thing as a rep in isometric training, so %RM is really how we should be always discussing hangs.
Thoughts on tyler nelson overcoming vs resisting isometric hypothesis?
Sorry, no comment.
Hey do you have any further recommended readings or references for the video?
I didn't use one source for this. I've studied this material for years. If you have access to a medical university library, the uptodate article on exercise physiology covers all this material in a highly technical but concise overview. The other main sources are primary research on strength training and hypertrophy. A pubmed search and lit review. I reviewed dozens of papers. Also years of gathering and analyzing my performance data and graphing the relationship.
how do you know the time needed for endurance, strength, and power assuming that the intensity is correct? is there some research done to show that those are the time constraints for each type of training or is it through experience?
Exactly. A large amount of research has been done on optimal zones for the desired goals. Ideally you'd know your own power curve because the research looks at %RM rather than times. I used my curve as a starting point.
Omg dude this thing is gold! I’ve been doing all my training wrong. But even when I do bench press and shit for 8 reps I may even not go above 60 seconds for the TUT. 😢
Thanks! You're fine with 8 reps for bench press. TUT isn't the way to do the conversion - go by %RM. Cadence matters a lot, but 8 reps is classically a ~75% RM using typical conversions which is a 56 second isometric (on my power curve). That's well into strength range for stimulating hypertrophy.
I understand that you need 60seconds exposure to build muscle. Do you mean literally e.g. a 60 sec hang, or could this be 6x (7 on + 3 off)?
I prefer 60 seconds as a single hang.
@Mobeta thanks for the reply.
That's quite a long hang. I'm confused in how that compares to what weightlifters do to build muscle, they seem (my limited understanding) to do sets of quite few reps at close to max (>80 % of max)
It is actually in the optimal range for hypertrophy. People have a hard time understanding how to convert isometrics to isotonic training. I did cover this in Episode 2, but not explicitly as it wasn't really the focus. Episode 6 is where this will be covered in detail
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but 2 points seem confusing to me:
1. Training for strength being between 60-180s. To move into a more clear-cut strength space such as weight lifting, you would never see someone deadlifting for over a minute attempting to get strength gains - the load is just far too low.
2. The power training zone being positioned at the highest weight section of the graph. Perhaps “power” is simply an overloaded term, but in the context of climbing training, it’s usually used to refer to explosive movements: the speed at which a movement can be made. The logic then goes that power training should be done well away from your maximum load. When at or near your max, movements become slow and hard fought, training strength instead of power. To effectively train power, it then stands to reason that you must drop the weight significantly to allow rapid movement.
I suspect I am misunderstanding something here, and would be extremely excited to find out what!
@Veloxzr This specific question has been answered several times in the comments, give them a read and I'll be happy to clarify further
@Mobeta, it’s possible that I’ve missed the answer to q.2. in the comments, but I genuinely have tried to find it. Regarding q.1. from what I can understand in the comments, my deadlift example would be explained on your power curve in the following manner. If you do 8 reps, then that is 80% (for the sake of argument) of 1RM. Taking 80% of the maximum weight you can lift/hang, should therefore land you in the equivalent strength range on the curve and fall between 60-180s. The cognitive dissonance I’m having is that I have measured my max possible lift using a strain gauge (Tindeq). I have also done 80% lifts of that weight and can say with absolute certainty that it falls so short of the 60-180s range that it’s not even close. That’s the root of my confusion. If I were to use a weight that I could hold for 60-180s, it would be FAR lower than the equivalent 8 or so reps in the world of weight lifting. It would result in the hypothetical equivalent of recommending 20 reps for training your deadlift strength.
@Veloxzr 8 reps is a 75% RM but this ofcourse varies by cadence and individual. You should be able to do 70% RM for ~60 seconds. If you can not, then you have easy gains on the table. Train in this zone to harvest. The optimal hypertrophy range in classic lifting extend from 8 reps all the way up to 25+ reps. I provided a wide range for this reason. Where you choose to focus will depend on your goals.
@@Mobeta thanks for taking the time to reply, I do very much appreciate it. Great videos!
@Veloxzr no problem. On the power question, power climbing ranges from ansolute peak power, to sustained bursts in the sub 30 second range. I use power in the sense of power lifting training zone. Training adaptation in this zone cooresponds to power lifting Training. Peak power output as you describe should be trained on rock or wall and not with grippers at all. It is fully context specific.
Hello, i didn't understand the time zone for strength it's 60-180s per repetition, per set, per week ?
Hang time to failure, for your first rep. This determines the weight to use for subsequent reps, even though hang times will be shorter.
The specifics of reps and weekly volume is a separate topic.
@Mobeta 30s for power seams really long, can you give me a short example of a workout ?
30 seconds is 85% 1RM (5reps) on my curve. This is the core fundamental training zone for power. 85%RM is foundational in training for power. I did specify
so, you are saying hangs below 30s are for "power" and I find that weird because p=m*v and there is like 0 velocity in a deadhang. Every other fingerstrength protocol I've seen is around 10s for max hangs / strength, hanging for more than +60s is very very uncomfortable on elbows, shoulders, etc.. this video has an interesting approach and I can't wait to see the next one in this series
I'm not here to say every other finger strength protocol is correct or not. I'm just explaining what training in that zone targets physiologically. If that lines up with your goals, and you are making gains, stick with it!! For people who plateau, get injured, or have climbing goals than involve problems longer than 30 seconds, I'm providing information to aid in that journey.
Heavy training is FAR more injury prone. Not even close. There is no debate here, anyone telling you otherwise doesn't understand basic training principles. They need to go back to medical school. Your shoulders and elbows get far more stress with heavy weights. In order to train with longer times, your weights drop significantly. I can assure you, 60+ is very comfortable. If not, your exercise selection is wrong. Using too easy of an implement is the issue. This will be covered in future episodes.
I use "power" for simplicity and clarity. People understanding what powerful climbing is. Power lifting is also a very well established sport. It is the power lifting zone. The physiology and training principles are exactly the same as power lifting. Not analogous. Identical. Same goes for cycling. They call it a power curve because they measure output in watts. I borrowed the terminology because it is exactly the same curve. In retrospect, I should have called the curve itself a force curve, because it's confusing the engineers in the audience 😅
So you mean that all the work I do at the hangboard, far below 30 seconds, is pretty useless🧐? You are like it train your nerves but not your muscles? Can't wait fot the next video😉
Not at all, you'll get crazy fast gains. Eventually though, you'll plateau or you'll find the gains aren't translating to longer problems. Then it's time to reasses training goals.
@Mobeta good to know 😅, so when I come to a plateau it's time to change my training, for example focusing on the strength rather than on the power?
Yup,, when you've maxed out power, you need a bigger engine. Strength training is MUCH slower gains, but has a higher overall potential for your climbing. Strength is how your projects turn into warmup.
@@Mobeta or maybe always on power but focusing on other types of muscles? Looking forward to watching the next 🤙
@@emilianovezzani8751 This is what I do. I'll discuss this more in the future, but in summary, I train all 3 zones concurrently. I shift my focus depending on season and current climbing goals, but I'm always training all zones.
Oh - that’s why I haven’t made progress in so long… dang it! Thanks.
Lol, sarcasm?
@@Mobeta No legit I've just been doing power training for like five years haha. I can almost do a one arm hang from a big crimp but I can't climb shit.
Welcome to the club. I got stuck in that exact rut so long I almost quit. RTK was my breakthrough send 9 YEARS after kleos after I finally figured out what I was doing wrong.
@@Mobeta I don’t have a pulley but I got my tension band out and am having a great workout. Feels good to push my arms in a new way.
Can I use anesthesia to lose weight? I find myself eating cookies when I can’t sleep.
Yes. Bedtime redlight therapy or melatonin supplementation can help with a cutting cycle. Anesthesia for nightly sleep is not advisable. Please see Micheal Jackson's wikipedia entry for details.
The internet is not ready to see the machines
Nor can they. They had a viking funeral on Dover last season. 🔥
I'm not sure I agree about the order of fiber type usage. Fibers are recruited according to the Hennemans Size Principle so those larger motor units aren't used unless there's enough force required to elicit their recruitment. I bring this up not to call you out but curious if there's something unqiue about the forearm flexors that I'm missing....
You are correct. My explanation was a little confusing. I wasn't discussing the order of fiber recruitment. I was talking about performance limiting contributions, from heavy loads to light. I was making it analogous to energy systems and thinking in terms of the contributions to the power curve, which was the concept I was building towards.
@@Mobeta Thanks for the response. Love the deep dive content.