I don't think people make enough of an effort to talk about how he ran his live gear. Awesome video, Michael!!! It was like he used his amp as a big, dumb preamp, got the sound the way he liked, then ran into the dummy load and all his effects and used a MOSFET power amp for his overall volume. He talked about it in all his interviews in the '80's and his approach never really changed much.
I have used Palmer's live for years, Especially PDi 09. A little hi cut and lo cut and a cut at 3k and through a PA job done. According to Palmer the load boxes are reactive. "For optimum emulation of this complex impedance behaviour and operation of the amplifier without a speaker, the Palmer PDI-03 and PGA-04 speaker simulator models have a built-in reactive load that can handle a maximum of 100 watts."
About 20 years ago I went into the studio with the producer Mike Shipley. I arrived with my Line6 Vetta amp to create all kind of guitar sounds. The studio technician came with this palmer speaker similator. It looked very much like the Palmer PDI-03, but this was the very first version. According to Mike, this early version was only owned by him, Eddie van Halen and if I remember correctly the guy from Def Leppard. The box sounded amazing, the line6 really came alive to sound like a proper amp, something that was not possible back then in the times before Axe FX II and so. Back home I bought first the modern palmer, and later managed to get the PDI-03. None of them sounded as good as that first palmer version. I talked about the palmer with Mike, he wanted to sent it to me, but unfortunately we lost bit contact an never happened. I guess after his divorce and tragical death this legendary device has been lost. Just wanted to share the story :) The record with Line6 + old Palmer. ruclips.net/video/Zh1TecLLtpM/видео.html
Gotta say I preferred the PDI-03 tone in all cases- much more musical sounding to me- especially with both deep and bright engaged. Sounded like a genuine Marshall stack- thought the Fryette sounded very thin and chainsaw-y compared to the Palmer... can't attest to the 'feel" since i wasn't playing there- but I use mine at home all the time and it doesn't seem to lack and "feel" or responsiveness to me. YMMV
The very first issue of Guitar Shop magazine had a very detailed schematic of Eddie's live rig (early 90s era) and where all of the signals were sent. It also has his personal Peavey 5150 amp settings.
I like the palmer better. Ive got one also but had it hooked up wdw live thru 3 4x12 cabs Effects Yamaha SPX 90 and lexicon pcm 81 with fet stereo amp for effects.
I read an interview of EVH in Guitar Player Magazine years ago where he said he was sending the speaker simulated signal from the Palmer to his effects. He said the effects sounded better driven by that tone. Wet/Dry/Wet.
Full disclosure… feel aside and I’m using iPod Pros so take that into account but I liked the Palmer more like the previous post. Had more of that warmer mids to my ears. IR’s are still the weakest link in the chain of going direct IMHO. I’ll have to watch again in my studio monitors.
I have had a PDI-03 since the ‘90s, when finding one was hen’s teeth. It is fantastic to feed line-level to effects. However, I have never managed to get a sound I liked for recording. Joe Satriani made a whole album with one; Joe Bonamassa has used one for decades to send a DI sound to the FOH, I don’t know how they do it!? I also have a pair of old PDI-09, they don’t sound too great either. In recent years I switched to a Suhr Line-Out box. It is equally good and much smaller.
The palmer sound is killer when used with a mic and a phazer box to correct phase at FOH in a larger venue. I feel like this is where they truly shine.
Joe Bonamassa and Alex Lifeson used them for years (I don’t know if Bonamassa still uses them). I think Geddy Lee used them as well, with his Sansamp units.
I do have a palmer box thats purely a reactive load, its also been out for a while I think. With IRs unbeatable. I do think they contribute the most to a realistic representation of a actual speaker.
Just a correction to this video, the Palmer PDI-03 load is reactive as stated in the manual. You may not like its impedance curve because of the feel it gives. That also happens with speakers that have unfamiliar impedance curves for some of us and we don't like their feel. The sound of the Palmer is super dry and direct and tricky to play in the beginning because it is unforgiving but once you get used to it is amazing.
I've had the power load and tones of other stuff including the Suhr. I actually PREFER Friedman's load + analog cab sim in the Runt 20, I use his Friedman mic no mo when I gig other amps live. So I prefer analog cabinet simulation and I think the Palmer sounds great.
I see what you're saying about "feel" with the reactive load. The new Tonex stuff, to me, seems to have that reactive "feel" thing going on as well, at least partially and distinct from other amp sims. Wondering if anyone else has this experience?
Funny. I had the same urge to pick up the guitar , my 1958 Standard and smash it into smithereens just like Pete Townshend! So I did. Now I am sad. Very sad. And wishing I could turn the clock back. But no. I can not. I am sad. Very sad.
I only work with IRLs, and I have five of the older Power Loads that I have never used to terminate the signal- rather I just capture a tone to shift to another amp. I aspire to get a Little Labs PCP which is like a one into three version of all the Little Labs PIPs that I have strung all over. That could emulate the Palmer, for less than four times the price.
I just checked out the Palmers on Reverb. Sorry, it's got a Palm Tree Logo, some things are more important than function. Plus, Rack stuff tidies up really well. 😁
In the age of IRs those old Palmer units can be had for a fraction of what they were once worth. Technically, they aren't really advanced: Just a (resistive) load and a filter network. And still they sound pretty decent, considering that they could be called "vintage" now. Using it to convert from speaker to line level is a cool trick, but a regular passive DI box would work just as well for this.
The Palmer has a bit of a muted high end, but it does have a nice midrange. If you set the Fryette to 1/2 reactive (middle switch on top and bottom) it's prettttttty close to the Palmer. The Suhr Reactive Load has a more woody midrange, kinda like the Palmer, but it more open than the Palmer... if you're into that.
Def Leppard used Palmer in their 'silent stage' rigs for years, maybe still do. Standing just offstage it was so quiet you could hear their shoes scuffling on the floor. Kinda creepy. 😆
The salt and pepper is really working out. And my favorite point in the Bradshaw tonetalk when he switched Ed’s dummy load “What are you a fuckin’ moron”
5150 and OU812 both have very odd guitar tones, and I’ve never been able to get a handle on exactly what Ed and Donn did. The explosion of new gear in the late 80’s was really something massive if you lived through it, and everyone was experimenting with and piling on new stuff to their tones. It was exciting and interesting at the time, but it often didn’t make better tones, and I’m glad there seems to be a wider recognition now that guitar + a few simple pedals + a great amp usually makes the best tones.
Since Eddie was using the Palmer load box as a effects send to a separate power amp, and then miking the cabs, did he really need a speaker sim?? I liked the Palmer better because it was tighter
Nielson! Excellent Vid... A G A I N bro! Question: The Palmer outs (not the filtered outs), how do they sound compared to the line outs that most of my amp heads have (VHT/FRYETTE, 101b, SLO, etc)? I ask because I have a few older amp (ie. '71 plexi & BF type) that do not have the padded down speaker line outs? Thanks man!
Michael, the trick with the PDI-03 is to mix in a tiny bit of direct line-out *with* the emulated output. I know, sounds like a horrific plan (that buzzy shitty direct signal). Which is why I completely ignored Palmer's advice for way too long. Until someday I tried..."so, what other advice do you have?". (Btw. ever heard Rush's live in Rio performance? Pretty sure that is PDI-03 emulated output directly to the people). Merry x-mas to you.
Thank you for this trick. I've just tried this with my Palmer and as soon as I turned the knob it sounds so much better. I liked the sound from the emulated output before but the mixed in line signal just completed it
@@daeror2867 You are welcome. And I agree, the box turns into a different beast. I don't know your style. But I tested using the power chords of Van Halen's version of "You really got me". With no direct, it has that Palmer sound. Good, useable, but not fantastic. Slightly flat and with a somewhat metallic top-end. I actually agree with Michael when we talk emulated-only. But a tiny bit of direct and this punchy, bassy growling tone appeared (nice top end too now). Happy playing!
I have an early PDI03 (without the PDIO3 label on the front), not only it sounds great but it sounds exactly like the cab miked up with a seinheiser 421, and no power supply. by comparison the Power load sounds like a direct box, not realistic miked up sound.
I think the Palmer is more of a Ron Popeil. Set it and forget it, which I like in it's simplicity. The Fryette seems like you can get in trouble pretty quickly. Adjusting all the ranges on the dial could actually pigeonholed you in what you hear and you could be constantly chasing tone if you don't have a good ear to tone sound. By listening to both machines on this video, the Palmer sounds better to my ears. Less is more sometimes.
Hi Michael, thanks for demoing this! Question....I have an original Suhr RL and I load my amp down with it, and send that to my Eventide 7600 and then into Fryette 252 and guitar cabs. I have head that this might not be the best approach because the Suhr RL is a GB-loaded 4x12 impedance curve, and the subsequent Fryette 252 and guitar cabs creates a second impedance curve. Apparently, this second impedance curve goes away if I use a SS power amp into the guitar cabs, instead of the tube power amp.....Is this actually correct? Thanks!
Hmm. I’m not sure. I think the fact that you’re using a power amp at all make the load impedance curve happen. If you were blasting out of the cabinet, but the load box was in-line (basically taking a line out) then the impedance curve would come from the cab.
Old news, Matt Bruck told that in Guitar Player 1991...and that Eddie just used it to get a line signal from his main Peavey amp's speaker output. Always curious on how it sounded, now I know that it's very much like the cab filters of the 90s like Peavey EDI, H&K Red Box, Boogie and Marshall recording out etc Great info, thanks Mike! :D
I haven't seen to many videos on Marshall compensated direct line outs in action. I always assumed it's because they suck. But im super curious to run my SL-X straight into my DAW and slap an IR on it. Any thoughts / experience on recording/compensated Marshall direct outs stright into daw? 🤔
The loading down and the cabinet simulation is still the hardest thing so far in the guitar gear industry! It is still impossible to fine something that sounds like a miked cab! The Universal Audio OX is probably the closest up to date to a true sound. But costs more then your entire rig LOL! ...and half of it is still digital :( I have been searching for good cabinet simulator for years, and tried out many of them, just to realize how crap they sound... so far I found only two devices, that I would call usable: One is an interesting old, weird looking, noone heard about thing: the Ibanez Parrot Box EC50. It is just a cabinet simulator, not loadbox, but analog, and reactive, and sound good and tasty. The other is an old company's modern release, the ADA GCS-6 cabinet simulator. Also full analog. This one is capable to incorporate the power amp's tone (saturation) too, because it can generate cabinet simulation from the speaker output of your amp, BUT you still have to connect a real speaker (or load) to the system, cause there is no loading in the GCS-6. Basically you run your speaker output into the GCS-6 and another cable out of it into a real speaker. At least the cabinet simulation it provides, captures the power amp's tone too. This ADA GCS-6 sounds quite convincing as a cabinet simulator. Interestingly the ADA and the Ibanez sound VERY similar!
Thanks Greg, super interesting. In my experience with the OX, it sounds great if you use multi-mics, EQ, compression, and reverb. But if you go down to a single SM57, it sounds artificial. It's all kinda 6 vs 1/2 dozen. ADA has a long history of analog speaker sims. I'll keep an eye out for the GCS
Always stunning vids Michael and you playin examples are excellent!! One question: I have your Dan Huff kemper pack and got awesozsounds out of it. Dan is so underrated, I cant find tabs of gis Giant time. Do you have an idea where to get some tabs from him ( time to burn and that stuff)? Cheers and have a cool x -mas time. Frank
No, sorry. Everything I have is at BigHairyProfiles dot com. Quad Cortex doesn't allow you to send patches to people. It has to be done through their network, which kinda blocks 3rd party sellers. If they change their system, I'd totally make QC patches.
We are talking about Eddie Van Halen. 99% of it was in the man's hands. He used what he had at the time. Like someone else said his Marshall was like the preamp for the effects. But the main thing was his playing.
EVH mentioned in interviews in the past that the effects came after the power-amp section of his amp, but before the MOSFET power amp he used as a "master volume" of sorts. He was basically using the head as a big preamp, getting his sound, then going out to the Palmer for a dummy load.
His original slave rig used a very large ohmite resistor tapped to aprox double the load of his cab. From there, signal went to a box with a 10k pot to bring it down to line level. From there, into an mxr EQ, mxr flanger, mxr phaser and eventually an echo plex...this is why the phaser and flanger effects were so prominent. In the early days, he'd then go into another amp for final stage volume. Eventually he went into the HH V800 to power his stage cabs...
Yeah. Interesting on the Plexi I agree. I pulled up my 800 to try, and the Fryette sounded way better. So now, unfortunately, I need to keep both units setup. 😉
The Palmer Speaker Sim didn't sound all that great. Its hard to believe Eddy ran thru that thing, maybe he had it turned off most of the time? .The Fryette sounded great
Listen, some of your videos are "Pete Thorn" worthy, and some are like "everyone else (the sucky guys) playing chords like "G" chors and "D"D chords really loud' (Hey, I otta know, because I know how to play G chords AND a D chord really loud, so.....ya know). In all seriousness, I'm a pretty damn good player. Oh? Be humble? I am being humble. I can play, man! So can you. Stick to backing tracks and playing lead tones with whatever you are demoing. I'm right about this. You're a great player. Don't ruin it by me and others turning to "Pete" every time fro every demo (not that its a bad thing-Love Pete).
Yes, good ears. I learned that for the Plexi, the Palmer really did sound the best. But then went I went back to my Fender's and Friedman's the Palmer sounded kind dead and flat. I think the Plexi has SO much presence, the dullness of the Palmer REALLY complimented the sound nicely.
The Palmer has a nice midrange, and a warmer top end. It's a little closer in tone to the Suhr Reactive Load. But the Palmer has a bit of a muted thing in the top end. It did work nicely on the Plexi in this case, but on some of my other amps, that muted character showed it face a little more.
The information in this video is highly misleading. The Palmer PDI 03 features a fully reactive load box and optional speaker sim. The presenter tries to talk people into favouring the Fryette device which, in HIS OWN recording, sounds very noisy and hissy.
The Palmer is really dark and muted. It works better actually for when you're 8 inches away from a cranked 100w head. But it really doesn't sound good with nearly any other amp in other situations, compared to the more current load offerings. But if it works it works... go for it.
@@BigHairyGuitars I have 2 of the PDI-03 here. And even attached to a Triple Rec (yes it can take the 150 Watts) the flat/bright combo is wayyyy to bright. deep/normal creates an output indistinguishable from my 90s Mesa 4x12 oversized cab with a 57/421 mic combo positioned just outside the cone of the speaker. Both switches in the middle is fantastic for fender amp vibes. Most importantly .. and besides the cab sim, this load IS reactive and the line out perfectly reproduces the interaction between guitar and amp volume pressure for an IR in the DAW. Split the signal to 2 heads, go into 2 of of the Palmers, set one to dark and one to bright to simulate a dynamic and a condenser mic ... mix to taste. Win! Or use 2 in series with one amp head .... for 2 different cab sims, add a line out to the DAW for a 3rd cab sim. This is a crazy good tool.
I don't know how people are ever satisfied with load boxes and IR's and what not. I really wanted to like them but it just doesnt sound nor FEEL the same to me when I play. I'd rather have a real steak.
That's how I felt until I created my own IR's. Not I really can't tell the difference once I've recorded parts. But there's a little different feel. To me it's apples and oranges, I like them both. If I had a nice underground live room ultra mega soundproof, I'd mic my cabs all the time :)
@@BigHairyGuitars Yeah same... I need a basement so bad. Haven't touched the digital modeling stuff in years but are you still forced to deal with that tiny amount of latency? I remember when I got an AXE-FX I actually didnt know latency would be involved...lol...sold that thing quick. Literally took ALL the fun out of playing for me but some people don't seem to mind it.
I don't think people make enough of an effort to talk about how he ran his live gear. Awesome video, Michael!!!
It was like he used his amp as a big, dumb preamp, got the sound the way he liked, then ran into the dummy load and all his effects and used a MOSFET power amp for his overall volume. He talked about it in all his interviews in the '80's and his approach never really changed much.
Palmer sounded nice, smooth.
I have used Palmer's live for years, Especially PDi 09. A little hi cut and lo cut and a cut at 3k and through a PA job done. According to Palmer the load boxes are reactive. "For optimum emulation of this complex impedance behaviour and operation of the amplifier without a speaker, the Palmer PDI-03 and PGA-04 speaker simulator models have a built-in reactive load that can handle a maximum of 100 watts."
You're wrong, palmer has a reactive load component too
About 20 years ago I went into the studio with the producer Mike Shipley. I arrived with my Line6 Vetta amp to create all kind of guitar sounds.
The studio technician came with this palmer speaker similator. It looked very much like the Palmer PDI-03, but this was the very first version. According to Mike, this early version was only owned by him, Eddie van Halen and if I remember correctly the guy from Def Leppard.
The box sounded amazing, the line6 really came alive to sound like a proper amp, something that was not possible back then in the times before Axe FX II and so.
Back home I bought first the modern palmer, and later managed to get the PDI-03. None of them sounded as good as that first palmer version. I talked about the palmer with Mike, he wanted to sent it to me, but unfortunately we lost bit contact an never happened.
I guess after his divorce and tragical death this legendary device has been lost.
Just wanted to share the story :)
The record with Line6 + old Palmer.
ruclips.net/video/Zh1TecLLtpM/видео.html
We used these on the Shania Twain tours with Mutt and loved them.
“Always one more, you’re never satisfied”… one of my favorite EVH riffs, and my favorite Van Hagar tune.
Absolute banger isn't it
@@adam872 Hell yes!
Your Wet Dry Wet sounds super awesome!!
Gotta say I preferred the PDI-03 tone in all cases- much more musical sounding to me- especially with both deep and bright engaged. Sounded like a genuine Marshall stack- thought the Fryette sounded very thin and chainsaw-y compared to the Palmer... can't attest to the 'feel" since i wasn't playing there- but I use mine at home all the time and it doesn't seem to lack and "feel" or responsiveness to me. YMMV
I've always liked the song Black and Blue. Cool to see you using that for a sound example.
The very first issue of Guitar Shop magazine had a very detailed schematic of Eddie's live rig (early 90s era) and where all of the signals were sent. It also has his personal Peavey 5150 amp settings.
Fantastic breakdown…one of the many things I lusted over seeing the pics of the Bradshaw rigs
I have lots of the Two Notes hardware which I adore but the 2 palmers never left my rack. Especially for heavy metal sounds I still like them a lot.
I like the palmer better. Ive got one also but had it hooked up wdw live thru 3 4x12 cabs
Effects Yamaha SPX 90 and lexicon pcm 81 with fet stereo amp for effects.
I read an interview of EVH in Guitar Player Magazine years ago where he said he was sending the speaker simulated signal from the Palmer to his effects. He said the effects sounded better driven by that tone. Wet/Dry/Wet.
Full disclosure… feel aside and I’m using iPod Pros so take that into account but I liked the Palmer more like the previous post. Had more of that warmer mids to my ears. IR’s are still the weakest link in the chain of going direct IMHO. I’ll have to watch again in my studio monitors.
Not sure what it sounds in the studio but I prefer the Palmer.
My fav RUclips Channel! Cheers from Brazil!
I think the palmer is ideal for live situations just because it’s so bright and pokey sounding. Definitely gonna cut through a mix with that.
I have the 80s Alan Holdsworth made alternative and it has even a real speaker spider/coil assembly in it. It rocks. Man he was a genius.
I have had a PDI-03 since the ‘90s, when finding one was hen’s teeth. It is fantastic to feed line-level to effects. However, I have never managed to get a sound I liked for recording.
Joe Satriani made a whole album with one; Joe Bonamassa has used one for decades to send a DI sound to the FOH, I don’t know how they do it!?
I also have a pair of old PDI-09, they don’t sound too great either.
In recent years I switched to a Suhr Line-Out box. It is equally good and much smaller.
@@peterheijnen33
What “special processing” do you do? Wild EQing?
Thanks Mike!
I run my 6505+ to this and then into my focusrite interface. Love it!
The palmer sound is killer when used with a mic and a phazer box to correct phase at FOH in a larger venue. I feel like this is where they truly shine.
Alex Lifeson used the onboard speaker Sims right up to the end. Killer live tone. Best live sound techs in the world love them.
@@peterheijnen33 True that!
Joe Bonamassa and Alex Lifeson used them for years (I don’t know if Bonamassa still uses them). I think Geddy Lee used them as well, with his Sansamp units.
Just looked and the PDI - 03 JB (Joe Bonamassa signature) is still for sale on the Palmer website.
What a great collection of riffs has 5150
Thank you Michael. Nice video to wake up to. Merry Christmas!
The Palmer sounds pretty good indeed considering the simplicity of its design. The Fryette isn’t head and shoulders better, IMO.
i go with palmer
Power Load IR definitely introduced a passive high pitch chainsaw sound.
Yup,..the Palmer kicked it's ass.
I do have a palmer box thats purely a reactive load, its also been out for a while I think. With IRs unbeatable. I do think they contribute the most to a realistic representation of a actual speaker.
Just a correction to this video, the Palmer PDI-03 load is reactive as stated in the manual. You may not like its impedance curve because of the feel it gives. That also happens with speakers that have unfamiliar impedance curves for some of us and we don't like their feel. The sound of the Palmer is super dry and direct and tricky to play in the beginning because it is unforgiving but once you get used to it is amazing.
Thanks for the info! GREAT!
Had a Groovetube SE II Speaker emulator, still an iNSANE great pc of gear....
Honestly I like the Palmer sound better. Fun video!
Thats true
I have the Fryette power Station. Great unit, but the best sounding feature is the still bypass switch. Neeej
I've had the power load and tones of other stuff including the Suhr. I actually PREFER Friedman's load + analog cab sim in the Runt 20, I use his Friedman mic no mo when I gig other amps live. So I prefer analog cabinet simulation and I think the Palmer sounds great.
Thanks again Michael for the awesome content that you create! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours as well!
Great job, Michael. Definitely an integral part of his FUCK and Balance rigs
I see what you're saying about "feel" with the reactive load. The new Tonex stuff, to me, seems to have that reactive "feel" thing going on as well, at least partially and distinct from other amp sims. Wondering if anyone else has this experience?
I have an incredible urge to go pick up my guitar right now! Excellent video!
Funny. I had the same urge to pick up the guitar , my 1958 Standard and smash it into smithereens just like Pete Townshend! So I did. Now I am sad. Very sad. And wishing I could turn the clock back. But no. I can not. I am sad. Very sad.
Hey man, bought that MGAT-1 pedal a Swede or so ago, dig the content
I only work with IRLs, and I have five of the older Power Loads that I have never used to terminate the signal- rather I just capture a tone to shift to another amp.
I aspire to get a Little Labs PCP which is like a one into three version of all the Little Labs PIPs that I have strung all over. That could emulate the Palmer, for less than four times the price.
I just checked out the Palmers on Reverb. Sorry, it's got a Palm Tree Logo, some things are more important than function. Plus, Rack stuff tidies up really well.
😁
amazing stuff! i always love the stuff you do, Michael!! Thanks again for what you do!
Excellent video!!
In the age of IRs those old Palmer units can be had for a fraction of what they were once worth. Technically, they aren't really advanced: Just a (resistive) load and a filter network. And still they sound pretty decent, considering that they could be called "vintage" now.
Using it to convert from speaker to line level is a cool trick, but a regular passive DI box would work just as well for this.
Also, thanks for showing how much of a difference a reactive load can make.
A regular passive DI box is not a load, sou you can't disconnect the amp to the speakers with it like you do with a load.
@@lfzadra Sure, but that wouldn't matter in a wet/dry rig.
Let the amp handle the dry cabinet and use an external power amp for the wet cabinet.
My ears liked the palmer better. But I'm listening on my phone, so what do I know...
The Palmer has a bit of a muted high end, but it does have a nice midrange. If you set the Fryette to 1/2 reactive (middle switch on top and bottom) it's prettttttty close to the Palmer. The Suhr Reactive Load has a more woody midrange, kinda like the Palmer, but it more open than the Palmer... if you're into that.
My vote for the Palmer too....
Your PLIR is not blinking! Mine drives me nutz..... 🤪
Def Leppard used Palmer in their 'silent stage' rigs for years, maybe still do. Standing just offstage it was so quiet you could hear their shoes scuffling on the floor. Kinda creepy. 😆
Very nice video. Thanks. For those watching the Bob Bradshaw ToneTalk referenced, it's at 2hrs09min in. Ask me how I know.
OMG Michael, please post a 30 second video of what's going on at 11:07, that sounds huge. I need those effects and settings
Deep+Normal where the Lifeson settings for Rush shows (with in ears, no stage cabs)
The salt and pepper is really working out.
And my favorite point in the Bradshaw tonetalk when he switched Ed’s dummy load “What are you a fuckin’ moron”
5150 and OU812 both have very odd guitar tones, and I’ve never been able to get a handle on exactly what Ed and Donn did. The explosion of new gear in the late 80’s was really something massive if you lived through it, and everyone was experimenting with and piling on new stuff to their tones. It was exciting and interesting at the time, but it often didn’t make better tones, and I’m glad there seems to be a wider recognition now that guitar + a few simple pedals + a great amp usually makes the best tones.
What did he have that rockman in there for?? Back up if the amps went down?
i used to run one of these a long time ago. they were good at the time but they arent reactive like the new loads
Since Eddie was using the Palmer load box as a effects send to a separate power amp, and then miking the cabs, did he really need a speaker sim?? I liked the Palmer better because it was tighter
Nielson! Excellent Vid... A G A I N bro! Question: The Palmer outs (not the filtered outs), how do they sound compared to the line outs that most of my amp heads have (VHT/FRYETTE, 101b, SLO, etc)? I ask because I have a few older amp (ie. '71 plexi & BF type) that do not have the padded down speaker line outs? Thanks man!
The Palmer speaker sim is usable with a major L.
Works in a pinch, but is a bit meh.
Isn’t that similar to the Rocktron Juice Extractor? Sorry if that has been mentioned already. Can’t watch this video until later today!
Michael, the trick with the PDI-03 is to mix in a tiny bit of direct line-out *with* the emulated output. I know, sounds like a horrific plan (that buzzy shitty direct signal). Which is why I completely ignored Palmer's advice for way too long. Until someday I tried..."so, what other advice do you have?". (Btw. ever heard Rush's live in Rio performance? Pretty sure that is PDI-03 emulated output directly to the people). Merry x-mas to you.
Yes it is! The R30 tone is the best!!
Great clean tones that way.
Thank you for this trick. I've just tried this with my Palmer and as soon as I turned the knob it sounds so much better. I liked the sound from the emulated output before but the mixed in line signal just completed it
@@daeror2867 You are welcome. And I agree, the box turns into a different beast. I don't know your style. But I tested using the power chords of Van Halen's version of "You really got me". With no direct, it has that Palmer sound. Good, useable, but not fantastic. Slightly flat and with a somewhat metallic top-end. I actually agree with Michael when we talk emulated-only. But a tiny bit of direct and this punchy, bassy growling tone appeared (nice top end too now). Happy playing!
I have always wondered what it would sound if you run a palmer through a full range speaker and then mic it. 🤔
I have an early PDI03 (without the PDIO3 label on the front), not only it sounds great but it sounds exactly like the cab miked up with a seinheiser 421, and no power supply. by comparison the Power load sounds like a direct box, not realistic miked up sound.
I think the Palmer is more of a Ron Popeil. Set it and forget it, which I like in it's simplicity. The Fryette seems like you can get in trouble pretty quickly. Adjusting all the ranges on the dial could actually pigeonholed you in what you hear and you could be constantly chasing tone if you don't have a good ear to tone sound. By listening to both machines on this video, the Palmer sounds better to my ears. Less is more sometimes.
Yeah. You get what you get with the Palmer. I did like it on the Plexi, but I tried it with a JCM800 and the Fryette sounded much better
Hi Michael, thanks for demoing this! Question....I have an original Suhr RL and I load my amp down with it, and send that to my Eventide 7600 and then into Fryette 252 and guitar cabs. I have head that this might not be the best approach because the Suhr RL is a GB-loaded 4x12 impedance curve, and the subsequent Fryette 252 and guitar cabs creates a second impedance curve. Apparently, this second impedance curve goes away if I use a SS power amp into the guitar cabs, instead of the tube power amp.....Is this actually correct? Thanks!
Hmm. I’m not sure. I think the fact that you’re using a power amp at all make the load impedance curve happen. If you were blasting out of the cabinet, but the load box was in-line (basically taking a line out) then the impedance curve would come from the cab.
@@BigHairyGuitars Thanks! I'm going to order the PL-IR, and borrow a SS power amp, and test it all to see what I like best.
Old news, Matt Bruck told that in Guitar Player 1991...and that Eddie just used it to get a line signal from his main Peavey amp's speaker output. Always curious on how it sounded, now I know that it's very much like the cab filters of the 90s like Peavey EDI, H&K Red Box, Boogie and Marshall recording out etc Great info, thanks Mike! :D
I haven't seen to many videos on Marshall compensated direct line outs in action. I always assumed it's because they suck. But im super curious to run my SL-X straight into my DAW and slap an IR on it. Any thoughts / experience on recording/compensated Marshall direct outs stright into daw? 🤔
There's a reason I've kept my palmer
The loading down and the cabinet simulation is still the hardest thing so far in the guitar gear industry!
It is still impossible to fine something that sounds like a miked cab!
The Universal Audio OX is probably the closest up to date to a true sound. But costs more then your entire rig LOL! ...and half of it is still digital :(
I have been searching for good cabinet simulator for years, and tried out many of them, just to realize how crap they sound... so far I found only two devices, that I would call usable:
One is an interesting old, weird looking, noone heard about thing: the Ibanez Parrot Box EC50.
It is just a cabinet simulator, not loadbox, but analog, and reactive, and sound good and tasty.
The other is an old company's modern release, the ADA GCS-6 cabinet simulator. Also full analog. This one is capable to incorporate the power amp's tone (saturation) too, because it can generate cabinet simulation from the speaker output of your amp, BUT you still have to connect a real speaker (or load) to the system, cause there is no loading in the GCS-6. Basically you run your speaker output into the GCS-6 and another cable out of it into a real speaker. At least the cabinet simulation it provides, captures the power amp's tone too.
This ADA GCS-6 sounds quite convincing as a cabinet simulator.
Interestingly the ADA and the Ibanez sound VERY similar!
Thanks Greg, super interesting. In my experience with the OX, it sounds great if you use multi-mics, EQ, compression, and reverb. But if you go down to a single SM57, it sounds artificial. It's all kinda 6 vs 1/2 dozen. ADA has a long history of analog speaker sims. I'll keep an eye out for the GCS
Always stunning vids Michael and you playin examples are excellent!! One question: I have your Dan Huff kemper pack and got awesozsounds out of it. Dan is so underrated, I cant find tabs of gis Giant time. Do you have an idea where to get some tabs from him ( time to burn and that stuff)? Cheers and have a cool x -mas time. Frank
Man... What a great sound with the PDI! Very focused. What's the Suhr pickups?
That's what sound techs love about them!
Do you have any quad cortex patches, I’ve been searching and can’t find you.
No, sorry. Everything I have is at BigHairyProfiles dot com. Quad Cortex doesn't allow you to send patches to people. It has to be done through their network, which kinda blocks 3rd party sellers. If they change their system, I'd totally make QC patches.
do u have a demo of your ir pack
Hi, are any of your irs available in wav format please? 🙏🏻
Hi Richard. Thanks for asking. YES. I finally did a WAV IR pack. The link is for Big Hairy Guitars Cab IRs in my video description..
Try an ADA Ampulator
We are talking about Eddie Van Halen. 99% of it was in the man's hands. He used what he had at the time. Like someone else said his Marshall was like the preamp for the effects. But the main thing was his playing.
Dude, thank you for just getting right to it lol! I click on so many videos that take an hour to get to the point. Not you man lol!
Thanks!
There’s a weird high end noise thing from the Fryette
That’s my un-potted (non-waxed) pickups and I’m sitting 6” from a 100w head on 10
Speaker simulator, whatever. Was that some ROCKMAN gear in there?!!!!
Where’s the Bradshaw link?
In fact there is an inductor in the Palmer, which tries to mimic the loudspeaker coil. So, it‘s not just a resistor based loadbox…
Ahhhhhhh! Thanks. That makes sense. Explains why it sounds so good
Thomas Abraham (FOH god) swears by that Palmer box.
a Brownarizer!
ha! There it is!
@@BigHairyGuitars i got your back man!
Koa top on the suhr?
The whole body is Koa
@@BigHairyGuitars baller!
The difference between reactive and non-reactive sounds like the difference between a modelled amp and a real tube amp to me.
Kind of strange Ed would use this for effects after the power amp section. Will have to check out the Bob Bradshaw interview talk thing.
EVH mentioned in interviews in the past that the effects came after the power-amp section of his amp, but before the MOSFET power amp he used as a "master volume" of sorts.
He was basically using the head as a big preamp, getting his sound, then going out to the Palmer for a dummy load.
His original slave rig used a very large ohmite resistor tapped to aprox double the load of his cab.
From there, signal went to a box with a 10k pot to bring it down to line level. From there, into an mxr EQ, mxr flanger, mxr phaser and eventually an echo plex...this is why the phaser and flanger effects were so prominent.
In the early days, he'd then go into another amp for final stage volume.
Eventually he went into the HH V800 to power his stage cabs...
It's an awesome way of splitting the signal without effecting the core tone!!...and 4 times😮😁!!
The Palmer sounds way better then the Fryette.
Yeah. Interesting on the Plexi I agree. I pulled up my 800 to try, and the Fryette sounded way better. So now, unfortunately, I need to keep both units setup. 😉
The Palmer sounds great.
The Palmer was way better than the Freyette
The Palmer Speaker Sim didn't sound all that great. Its hard to believe Eddy ran thru that thing, maybe he had it turned off most of the time? .The Fryette sounded great
Listen, some of your videos are "Pete Thorn" worthy, and some are like "everyone else (the sucky guys) playing chords like "G" chors and "D"D chords really loud' (Hey, I otta know, because I know how to play G chords AND a D chord really loud, so.....ya know). In all seriousness, I'm a pretty damn good player. Oh? Be humble? I am being humble. I can play, man! So can you. Stick to backing tracks and playing lead tones with whatever you are demoing. I'm right about this. You're a great player. Don't ruin it by me and others turning to "Pete" every time fro every demo (not that its a bad thing-Love Pete).
That power loader did not sound right... 😬
I can't speak to the feel aspect, but I liked the tone of the Palmer better.
Yes, good ears. I learned that for the Plexi, the Palmer really did sound the best. But then went I went back to my Fender's and Friedman's the Palmer sounded kind dead and flat. I think the Plexi has SO much presence, the dullness of the Palmer REALLY complimented the sound nicely.
Play some Ghost, bruh!
The real question is; what was he using the Rockman stuff for???? Yes I know...two smartgates😉
Palmer
Palmer sounded better
The Palmer has a nice midrange, and a warmer top end. It's a little closer in tone to the Suhr Reactive Load. But the Palmer has a bit of a muted thing in the top end. It did work nicely on the Plexi in this case, but on some of my other amps, that muted character showed it face a little more.
the Fryette sounds better but I hear a squeal that's making me insane!
Sorry. It's where everything was positioned, and how close I was to a fully cranked 100w head. I couldn't hear that it was coming through so much.
The information in this video is highly misleading. The Palmer PDI 03 features a fully reactive load box and optional speaker sim.
The presenter tries to talk people into favouring the Fryette device which, in HIS OWN recording, sounds very noisy and hissy.
The Palmer is really dark and muted. It works better actually for when you're 8 inches away from a cranked 100w head. But it really doesn't sound good with nearly any other amp in other situations, compared to the more current load offerings. But if it works it works... go for it.
@@BigHairyGuitars I have 2 of the PDI-03 here. And even attached to a Triple Rec (yes it can take the 150 Watts) the flat/bright combo is wayyyy to bright.
deep/normal creates an output indistinguishable from my 90s Mesa 4x12 oversized cab with a 57/421 mic combo positioned just outside the cone of the speaker.
Both switches in the middle is fantastic for fender amp vibes.
Most importantly .. and besides the cab sim, this load IS reactive and the line out perfectly reproduces the interaction between guitar and amp volume pressure for an IR in the DAW.
Split the signal to 2 heads, go into 2 of of the Palmers, set one to dark and one to bright to simulate a dynamic and a condenser mic ... mix to taste. Win!
Or use 2 in series with one amp head .... for 2 different cab sims, add a line out to the DAW for a 3rd cab sim.
This is a crazy good tool.
I don't know how people are ever satisfied with load boxes and IR's and what not. I really wanted to like them but it just doesnt sound nor FEEL the same to me when I play. I'd rather have a real steak.
That's how I felt until I created my own IR's. Not I really can't tell the difference once I've recorded parts. But there's a little different feel. To me it's apples and oranges, I like them both. If I had a nice underground live room ultra mega soundproof, I'd mic my cabs all the time :)
@@BigHairyGuitars Yeah same... I need a basement so bad. Haven't touched the digital modeling stuff in years but are you still forced to deal with that tiny amount of latency? I remember when I got an AXE-FX I actually didnt know latency would be involved...lol...sold that thing quick. Literally took ALL the fun out of playing for me but some people don't seem to mind it.