The Swiss Army Knock off in the Swiss Army Knife Community
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
- It's Junk! Its a Swiss Army Knock-off! That's the usual refrain when somebody shows a Swiss Army Like knife to fan of Swiss Army Knives. But I contend even a Swiss Army knock-off knife has a place in the knife community -- unless, of course, the knock off is a counterfeit! And we as Swiss Army Knife Fans need to not just dismiss every knock-off as a junk.
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I am a little confused on the history of Victorinox vs Wenger. I hear that they are the same company now? They are both considered genuine Swiss Army knives? Do you have a video on this topic, or can you recommend a video on this topic?
This whole thing went to court in Switzerland. Carl Elsener managed to snag the contract for the original Swiss Soldiers knife from German manufacturers in 1890 or 1891 but the original knives were made by a guild of Swiss Knife Makers. Eventually only two of the knife makers in the guild were still making them Theo Wenger and Elsner. Elsner would change his company name to Victoria and later Victorinox.
Victorinox knives became very popular with US GIs after wwii who began calling them Swiss Army Knives ( based on the tang stamp Suisse Officer Armee Couteau )
Victorinox decided to capitalize on the new American market and quickly trademarked the phrase Swiss Army Knife for their knives.
Wenger also began marketing its competing styles of knife and called foul because they also made knives for Swiss Army. The Swiss Courts ruled that Victorinox could market its knives as “The Original Swiss Army Knife” and Wenger could markets its knives “Genuine Swiss Army Knives”. And no other Swiss knife company could call their knives Swiss Army Knives as they no longer made knives for the Swiss Army.
Victorinox has worked long and hard to protect the TM.
In 2005, Victorinox bought Wenger to prevent the historical Swiss company from being bought by a non-Swiss company. In 2013, they rebranded all the Wenger knives to Victorinox, however victorinox.
Wenger still makes watches, luggage, and a variety of other products. The company sans, it’s knives is now owned by a company called Marel.
Wenger Swiss Army Knives officially became Victorinox Delemont Swiss Army Knives in 2013. Hope that helps.
@@KnifeChatswithTobias Oh my gosh, that explains everything! Thank you for the detailed response!! Has anyone ever called you the Knife Professor before?
My experience is that the Wenger knives had a superior pair of folding scissors, & they were slightly shorter than the Victorinox knives, which made them fit my pants pockets better. I preferred the Wenger SAKs for those reasons. No more!@@KnifeChatswithTobias
I bought a Walmart checkout counter Swiss Army knock off every year for 15 years. As a teacher I taught an outdoor skills class to college age folks. In class I told them to not buy a walmart sak and sure enough every year someone would ask why not. I donned my work gloves, opened the new blister packed knife, and tore it completely apart with my hands starting with the blade, in about 4-5 minutes. Now I did once try it with an old Victorinox and could not do it with gloved hands only so I felt justified demonstrating the "quality" of a cheap sak.
As I mentioned in this video I had to of these Walmart specials and the scissor spring broke on the one almost immediately. The quality is definitely suspect, especially if you're going to put it to hard use. I think the most problematic knives are the Royal Crest line. I think these may have had an association with Aitor in Spain at one time. But they have been made in China for years. Their quality has been abysmal for years but they have stepped up their game slightly in the last few years. The problem now, is the knives are almost a virtual clone of popular (expensive) SAK models. And while at first glance, the quality appears to be pretty good, the long term durability is doubtful at best.
The issue with SAKs not made by Wenger or Victorinox is that they are trying to sell for less than Vic and Vic is already a great deal (with few exceptions). If they want to sell for less they have to compromise quality. I think its possible to beat Vic on quality but the price point would probably be significantly higher.
I think you summed it up quite well. For me the knock off might work for some people. But we can't just discount all of them as junk. There are a few that rival Victorinox/Wenger in quality, but they really are not any less expensive and actually tend to be more expensive.
I had a discussion with the owner of American company that was producing a quality copy of the Classic SD. It truly was every bit as good as the Victorinox. They made it for two or three years and stopped. They were selling them for about a $1 less than the Vic. They sold them for about two or three years before discontinuing the model. Why? Because they were losing money with every sale. The owner said they would almost need to double the price in order to have broken even on the knife. He couldn't understand how Victorinox could make the knife so good and sell it at the price they did. That was the cost of doing business in the US in the 1970s and early 1980s!
Imitatation is the sincerest form of flattery. I don't know much about Mikov. But many Czechs are hunters and imported goods were very difficult to come by until the Berlin wall fell.
I recently obtained a Victronox Work Champ it is excellent ! I enjoy knife chats with Tobias !!! A lot !!!!
I bought the Swiss Tech "Listig" small keychain type knife from Wal-Mart for $11.88 a few months ago. It is easily better than its analog, the ubiquitous Victorinox SAK Classic that costs twice as much.
Same tools, equal or better quality. I'd recommend the Listig over the Classic all day every day, and twice on Tuesdays.
And I say this as a huge Victorinox SAK collector and enthusiast.
(edit: I typed Compact, but meant Classic)
Tobias, this is a GREAT video, as always! The design and diversity of Wenger Swiss Army knives are STILL amazing. Long live Wenger!
Wenger definitely had a bit of the innovative edge over Victorinox.
Wow! What a wonderful and fascinating video!! Thank you...
I was 14 yrs old in 1995 when I bought a knockoff SAK. The quality was so bad that the same year my mother bought me a Victorinox Hiker. I still have it, together with another 57 of them including Victorinox and Wenger. That knockoff probably went into the trash too quickly for me to remember.
That is the true difference. A knock-off is most likely good for the summer, at best. The SAK can easily be a life time companion!
I picked up a pradel a while back. Unfortunately when the blade is closed, it hits the mainspring, so theres always a rolled spot in the middle of the edge. But its still interesting to see how other companies have tried to compete with Victorinox and Wenger.
I modded a Passenger by removing the scissors from an Explorer and carried it regularly for a year. Then I added a saw to it for my camping and hiking duties and carried that for over 3 years. Still carry it on occasion but moved more into multitools. Great vid 🍻
It's nice to hear a voice of reason :)
Interesting and are we going to see your Wenger collection next time, presuming you have quite a few, also have you tried the other Swiss manufacturer Swiza?
GReat video buddy!!! There are some KNock offs, that are still really nice looking knives out there. I got a couple of them:)
The watch world has exactly the same issues. I don't mind the odd 'homage watch'. I have a nice Phylida 'Omega Aqua Terra' lookalike and a Heimdallr that looks like a Seiko Monster gen. 3. Both good quality fit and finish, Seiko automatic movements and sapphire crystals (available for around the £/$100 - 150 mark). And my San Martin 'Rolex Submariner homage' watch is the best Sub style watch in the world that doesn't cost £/$7,500.
That's how the watch world deals with the 'knock off' issue. Falsely branded fakes/ replicas are viewed by the community and forums as a complete no-no. Whereas 'homage' watches, which are usually well made and branded with the maker's own name, are generally OK; although the watch hobby/ community also has many purists/ snobs who denigrate those watches and the owners of them, too. Not everybody can afford over $3,000 for a Tudor or Omega, though.
Great video. Great subject I haven't seen covered in all the SAK videos I've seen, so far. It just reminded me about something else I am into so I thought I would leave the kind of comment that you probably don't see very often, on your channel.
Both subjects that refer, largely, to the long high quality of precision engineering and high quality of manufacturing and metal workmanship, from Switzerland. have 3 'budget level' (under £2K) Swiss watches and, like Victorinox SAK's, that are thankfully a lot cheaper, they are practically perfect at being what they are and doing what they do.
Everything lines up, no play, QC, fit and finish amazing. If you've worked for it, made certain sacrifices, had a little windfall saved a bit, I highly recommend getting one. I think it's something people who appreciate the quality of the Swiss made Victorinox pocket knives would really understand and appreciate, too (I recommend, especially for American people, a watch company with over a hundred years of history and heritage in the American railroad industry, who's watches are also produced in Switzerland, called 'Ball'; check them out).
Very good points. Making something similar or bringing back something that no longer exists so others can enjoy it at a reasonable price is one thing. Trying to fake an item and passing it off as the original is just dishonesty and unacceptable.
"The devil is in the details" could be the motto underneath victorinox shield.... Thank you Tobias! (pls consider a video about sowbelly stockmans and canoes first appearance on catalogues)
Thank you for helping combat this scam ! 👍
I've got a couple of them. Swiss Champion and a Marlboro SAK by Victorinox. I do have a Wenger SAK. I LIKE THE VERSATILITY of the SAK. perfect companion for camping.
Spartan Light 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 God help us...😂
Very interesting" 👍
I once had a SAK Knock-Off and all I have left is the toothpick & tweezer
the rest was JUNK!
I have the toothpick in my wallet and use it all the time
I dont really know the steel the chinese knockoffs use...they generally dont sharpen well easily.
I am sticking with Victorinox
Very good point. I swear some of the Chinese knives seem to use a 300 series (304, 308, 316) Stainless. These are sometimes used in single use surgical scalpels to good effect and also for surgical implants like artificial hips or knees and also dinnerware. But a disposable scalpel is used maybe for three or four cuts and is then thrown away. They cannot be sharpened and they are razor thin.
The knock off SAK companies seem to have always known better than to try and make Alox type knives and probably because they were never that popular like the plastic scaled stuff is. It's only in the last 20-ish years that Alox got popular and Victorinox have made every color under the sun.
Victorinox is already more than century of making swiss army knife thats why it the best
Very good point. What more, most of the knock offs just try to imitate. None actually set out to make improvements. They were there to make money by looking like a SAK not by improving on a SAK.
Hi Tobias:
A very interesting video. I really enjoyed it. I’ve had several of the SAK knockoffs over the years. They’ve actually been OK and have had interesting blade/tool variations. It’s unfair, as you said, that they are considered, by some people, to be counterfeits; that is an untrue statement. They weren’t trying to fool anyone.
I feel people should cool their jets over this kind of thing. 👍👍
I like the Yeoman over the Passenger/ Alpineer for a 3 layer with the magnifying glass and inline phillips. the Scissors over the opening layer on Passenger makes it nicer for me. A Yeoman is basically a Compact with 3rd layer for the inline phillips and magnifying glass. The Yeoman is a bit over hyped and it's only because they didn't make it for very long and has been out of production for 20-ish years.
I cant argue with you their. I were to build my own. I'd go three layers-
The back layer would be the main blade and nail file,
Center layer- Phillips- Magnifier
Front layer - Scissors
The would leave me with a single back tool, the corkscrew.
Throw on the plus scales, and I'm happy.
I do need to find a yeoman some day, but I'm not paying the typical ridiculous prices.
Interesting
The Colonial knife has a nice snap on it! I wouldn't argue that all knockoffs are junk, particularly the ones made in Solingen, Germany are pretty good I imagine, followed by Polish-made Gerlach and Czech-made Miklovs. Also as you mention in the comments Fox knives and Mercury, both of Maniago, Italy, make some nice Swiss-style knives.
Regarding the absence of a nailfile on 91mm knives, Victorinox released the Companion this year which does have a nailfile in place of the small blade, and instead of the can opener there is a box opener, it still has the small slotted screwdriver on the end which can also be used on Phillips screws. Apart from those 2 tools, it's the same as the Climber and comes with some new scale designs, but it isn't cheap.
Exactly. I do prefer it when the knock-off has a tang stamp bearing a company with a known track record; be it a good track record or bad track record. My experience has been that if the company produces other quality knives, then their SAK knife might also prove good. But if they are known for producing low quality products or they aren't a knife company at all, then it is time for the buyer to tread lightly and be suspicious.
I thought I had a Swiss Army knife for 20+ years. It has the shield or logo as the one you said was made by Imperial in Germany. The only identifier I see is the blade says 1SC stainless Germany. I remember figuring it out year’s ago but have forgotten...of course I had to get the real thing and purchased a Huntsman which was closest to the knife I have...
Found it again... Vintage Imperial Schrade Century Swiss Army knives... 1990’s vintage
These were made by the Adler Factory in Germany. Funny thing. Victorinox subcontracted with Adler to build 108mm German Army Knives for the German Army. Victorinox supplied the parts, Adler put them together.
Interesting: I found a 1993 Century Catalog that shows it as a CN91 Apollo. Reading some of Scrade’s history then was also interesting. Thanks for the trip down the rabbit hole...lol
Is Tobias live or is this previous recorded?
It was a video that was premiering. When a new video premieres for the first time, it will normally have commercials front loaded and then play through without the ability to skip forward or speed up the play time. If you join late, you will sometimes miss the beginning of the show. Once the premiere is over the video can be watched normally. This allows people participate in the chats session.
yes, but can it break glass???
The explorer is great . I have an Exploranger
Cool! Did you add the magnifier and phillips to a Ranger or 2 saws to the Explorer?
can you have some french version with fake deer handles or fake horn cow handles by pradel ???
Alas I only own one Pradel and it is in red plastic and in very sad shape. It would not be fair to use it an example of the Pradel SAK knock-offs.
@@KnifeChatswithTobias YES some of they' re are in bad states ! very used or rusted but sometimes you found a good copy
Aren’t markets wonderful, something for nearly everyone at various price points.
And differing levels of quality control. But when a major manufacturer makes a competing product its is silly to just dismiss the competition as junk. I don't think Victorinox does this and neither should Victorinox Fans.
The ASK-American Service Knives are nice but I don't like the tool selections and they don't make scissors. The $250 price is too high for mediocre tool selection . I do like the blade on them but I wish they would have made them flat grind or a hollow grind like what Buck does on their slipjoints. Very well made and heavy duty but they need to make more tools to choose from and some scissors. I would still take a Compact as a 2 layer knife over any of the ASK's that are being made. there seems to be too much lack in them for the price. SAK's are full of fuctions and the ASK's only have heavy duty to stand on. Made in U.S. means very little and especially trying to compare to something Swiss made. the U.S. made thing is a little gimmicky and excuses for companies to jack up prices. Switzerland has higher costs than any other country and don't use nationalism to jack up prices. I have never been a fan of Medford and his knives and his gung ho gimmicky U.S. made propaganda
I have never seen or heard of these. I just watched a video on them and watched a someone build their own. I do like the modular aspect but not the price tag. Also the knives are really built on just a basic camp knife body and it appears they have no method of adding back tools. I'm curious as to how well the knives stay together. I suppose loc-tite might be an option. Medford knives are just way out of price range.