Just as I finished watching this, I saw that the billboard music awards are hosting their own kpop version of the award show in Hope's of 'trying to find the next BTS' and I think this highlights perfectly your example of getting a new gold making machine when the old one is inactive or broken. How sad.
same I just saw it honestly this is very dehumanizing that the capitalist class is shamelessly hunting for new money machines but I'm glad the bts made a wise decision they didn't let themselves be a pawn of govt or ruling capitalists anymore. bts definitely deserves a lot better
Actually, the government is planning to allow BTS members to pursue activities as a group while serving BUT the problem is according to the korean law every profit they make from those activities goes to the Government bcuz they can't make any money while being in the military it is just disgusting. As per the k billboard show it's the industry who's trying to hold it not the government
@@easypeasy6572 the industry and the government are both part of the capitalist class, so when the gold machine stops operating the capitalist tries to replace it.
@@easypeasy6572 exactly like you said also I rather BTS just serve like normal citizens because imagine the strain of performing and at the same time in the military. That's overwork. My friend who served in the military said he slept like a dog everyday and is always out of energy it is not easy work. Just imagine BTS performing, earning basically nothing, all money goes to the government and like maybe even flying jetlagged and next day go back to the military?
When the "group hiatus" was announced in June, we all went back to the music they made (MOTS7) and everything they said made even more sense, and that happens a lot with BTS. With each big change that happens in their career, everything just falls into place and we realise that they truly make good decisions. Same thing will happen the upcoming years, I'm sure. Great video btw, Elliot, I loved it
Suga has publicly called out those for saying hiatus. He did it on stage in busan. I am so happy he did too. I watched all the Festa Dinner party and at no point did they ever say that. Its such a triggering word.
@@emmamcintyre6997 He told them, people should stop saying that word now. Our BTS have confirmed that's not what they said. Army that blocked people for saying it wasn't a hiatus, take note of what our yoongi said please and don't make your own translations up.
What are you talking about, I am talking about what he said at Busan when he called all the reporters out for saying BTS was on hiatus or breaking up????
@@emmamcintyre6997 so am I. My point is aimed at those who make tiktoks still saying hiatus when that's not what was said by Suga. God you turned very quickly didn't you.
There came a point when I KNEW they had no choice but to enlist no matter what, and I know BTS realized it too. They are hyper-aware of their pristine reputation and how serving is viewed by the populous. Even though many are for ending the mandatory subscription, the general sentiment is "you betta still serve tho." An exemption without meeting well established, clear and tangible criteria would have been absolutely disastrous. I strongly believe exemption criteria for pop idols in SK will be written on BTS' back and be granted to future artists. That's often the price of being a trailblazer, there are many fruits of your labor you never get to enjoy. No matter what decision their government makes now, BTS' reputation is solid. They know what they're doing and are obviously surrounded by good people. So although, as an ARMY I'm saddened, I'm not worried. Also, just for perspective; when I enlisted in the US military my basic training was 6 weeks, then my school to learn my job was 5 months, then came my mandatory on-the-job training that took another 12 months. So at my 18 month mark I had finally become certified to perform my duties unsupervised - and that's when BTS will be out-processing 🤣🤣🤣💜.
Took all the words out of my mouth. Thank you so very much for saying this so eloquently. Even netizens alluded to this. That history will look back and appreciate BTS in ways people can not now because they are too close to it.
Very well put! I am definitely saving this as a reminder of BTS' power.. Sometimes I tend to forget how much they have impacted the music industry overall.. BTS will always be talked about!
Actually, what they did for me was so amazing and brave hahahaha, they announcing it after the concert was like a slap on the face to the diplomatics. And I also find it sad that ppl focussed more on their economic impact than their cultural impact, which personally I think is the main impact... Without the cultural impac there wouldn't be a economical impact
I'm from Spain and the king talked about BTS with Moon Jaein, the expresident, one time they met. There are rumors about the princesses of Spain being ARMY. BTS is getting world leaders to know about korean culture
i feel sad over the idea of focusing on impact in general, instead of the inherent value they have as human beings. On that same though, if they were not so famous, would they be less worth as people and therefore less deserving of fair treatment by their government? And on an extra sad note, the economic benefits that BTS brings are not actually the money they make, but something called soft power. Soft power works by exporting the culture, driving up the interest on the culture, and said interest eventually fueling the local economy. So their cultural impact is also a measurement of their economical value.
@@gongcha3876 8:30-10. And they probably mean that Elliott is politically aware and a leftist so I imagine he'd love the fact that BTS has such strong in-your-face lyrics and they'd subtly stick it up to the shitty politicians, past and present.
"Hey, so you'll do the free concert in Busan for us?" BTS: Sure thing, we actually have a song that mentions how great Busan is. "Oh really, definitely include that song in the set list then" J-Hope: that leftist rebellion in my hometown was based!! Jokes aside I've been an army since 2016 and back then talks of military service were much different than they are now because bts super big globally as they are now so exemption was an ocean away from the table. Like, no lie the attitude around it was, "don't you dare even look at military exemption you are going to make so many conservative Koreans mad at BTS" I've honestly found it a bit jarring at how newer armys have been emboldened into talking about exemption because of how big they've gotten (and with the gov teasing the possibility). But I always had a problem with how these talks often were missing BTS' imput on what they wanted, granted, they couldn't have explicitly asked for exemption because that would have definitely unleashed the fury of conservative Koreans. Though when Yoongi writes about how they intend to serve in the military in one of the songs from D-2 I feel like the convo is over. . . At the end of the day I respect BTS' decision, I especially respect the hell out of the way they went about announcing that they will begin serving lol Glad to see you make this vid Elliot. Most non-fan reactions have been mostly jokes about BTS dancing in the trenches and while those jokes don't offend me I'm hope this vid shows ppl that BTS are actually quite politically ballsy
The stuff about politicians and the general public potentially getting mad BTS was also a common argument to leave the exemption talk alone if you're not Korean (and let BTS take the decision) well into 2020 I believe, but with the talk intensifying this year while many newer fans (who have been coming in increasingly larger waves from 2017 to now) lack the context of how long these talks have gone on and where did they come from..... yeah about the jokes, tbf I read one about like a tactical strike force entirely made of BTS, which, while not something I'd want to actually happen, is a pretty funny image lol
@@Danae_O Ya when I first joined the fandom a lot of older fans would talk about specific instances where fans trying to get their fave exempted ended in that celebrity getting a lot of backlash, so fans would often tell each other to just accept military service as an inevitability (I'm so glad that the service will only take a little more than two years for OT7 bts to come back I was mentally preparing for the worse case scenario for separate service) And ya a lot of the military jokes are hilarious ngl 💀
I think a lot of new and older fans spoke up about the military service exemption specifically because of the Government teasing it. Its not probably. It's been 4 years of this talk from the government. You would expect some sort of action or statement of seriousness. But instead they were playing around. That really pissed people off. That's why you saw a lot of fans be like "bts deserved exemption" even though they knew bts themselves talked about going to the military. Trust me, armys know what bts want. And as a matter of fact I know that many fans actually were louder than usual about the exemption so that it can get on the media. So many tweets getting blown up. Trending several days..... That gives media attention. Once it's on the media, nobody can deny bts's impact on the world right now. So talking about the exemption loudly was more like a middle finger to the government who played with bts more than actually wanting the exemption itself. I mean you saw it right? the article headline "politicians embarrassed after bts military service announcement". Yep. Cus what do governments fear the most? Media. That's right.
@@ralphy383 Oh ya I get why it has been especially more loud since bts have decided to go I was more talking about the contrast between older and newer fans in the sense that a lot of new fans are also very new to kpop in general and didn't know that exemption talk was "taboo" and also the general division between "well of course bts could never get exemption" to "wait they might be able to. . ." that's become prevalent in recent years
@@Nublet864 oh yes I get you. I was part of the... bts would never get exemption teams. I'm a 2018 fan (a sort of middle point )and I had the words military and exemption muted forever on twitter. Our policy was to keep quiet about it and move in silence before. And I also saw the newer fans being a lot more unaware of how it was before, speaking out on things they barely understood. there was also lot of agitation due to entertainment companies ganging up together and using bts's name to get exemption for kpop in general. I think it played a part at why the talks got more divisive and frequent .
Sounds good but makes no sense tbh. It’s just the same thing repeated. And they are the same. Your values is what makes you valuable. This like makes no sense. Who you are your morals and all that contribute to your value. Status doesn’t mean anything to them. It was never a question no matter how big they got. They were gonna serve regardless. It was never a choice. It was just known. Plus even if it was a choice. Bts doesn’t have a say so. They have no choice.
i know a lot of the discussion centers around the capital the boys generate but over the past year(s) i've been thinking about how bts have been transformed and pushed by politicians to essentially become a political tool and a mascot of sk in international terms, and as a fan while it's gratifying to see that they've 'made it' it's also frustrating how their personhood is neglected in favour of 'bts the korean brand'. they're used as bargaining chips both domestically and internationally and bts' own agency is so often overlooked. i'm glad the boys are reclaiming their agency but the fact remains that they've been politically exploited for so long on a side note, i love how the ads always nicely segment the videos into neat portions
This!! This is exactly what I’ve been thinking! BTS have definitely become more political in recent years- through no fault of their own. Hence they wouldn’t make songs critiquing the government anymore because of their affiliation with them. Aswell as the added pressure that’s been placed on them to represent the country and the government, their moves have been closely watched and analysed for a while now. Honestly I see the military service as a break from the governments clutches. Atleast for a short while.
@@jinphany. I brought this kind of thing up with some friends on Twitter (back when I was still on Twitter), and they kind of just dismissed it, but I've just kind of been unhappy with Hybe over the past couple years. It seems like they just want to capitalise on things that are trending, when in the beginning, BTS was never about that. That's why, even though I love them as a group, I'm happy they get time to explore themselves as people and express themselves differently. I'd take BTS voicing their own opinions and just being themselves, even if it would mean that I'd disagree with what they say from time to time, over the marketed brand of BTS. I see 7 amazing, complex people when I see BTS, and I want them to be those people, those individuals, publicly, if that's what they want. I hope it all goes well in the military, and that they can enjoy feeling like they made the right decision. When it comes down to it, they're just Korean men that deserve to take part in their culture and obligations without drama.
This is one of those I wish I thought of that first comments lol. You brought out some incredible points that I would not have ever thought of otherwise. And it’s so perfectly said too.
@@GivebackthescarfBTS are rich boys? They were never treated like a human or should I say not even other group even when they were just a rookie bcz they are out of big3, bfr,
The reason I always support bts in their private as well as professional life is because I know they always think things through and don't do things on a whim (even if it may seem like it). Also one thing I think ARMY is REALLY good at is prioritising bts before our own needs. Their mental health and well being is so important to us we always feel apologetic at the slightest signs of discomfort from them. Take the Weeknd cancelled concert as an example where the crowd booed him and went off on Twitter cussing him out. ARMY would never do that. Whenever bts cancelled or postponed things, funnily enough ARMY would get sick worrying about how the boys must feel. I know we often bring up their monetary value in discussions but that's not because it's important to us, we couldn't care less. It's because it's often the quickest way to shut up haters since it's hard to argue against numbers.
Was waiting on your opinion on this tbh, I always find your takes about BTS having a bit more nuance than other commentators, even some ARMYs don't quite grasp that BTS are way more than the commodity that they are perceived to be, regardless if the context of consumption is out of appreciation. I personally was a bit more bothered by the fact that BTS was used as scapegoats for the South Korean gov't's performativeness of considering exemptions (possibly opening doors for other circumstances for this to be granted) but ultimately, BTS are still to be commodified if they were exempted. They're just going to be used for their soft power and the possible economic and cultural prestige they can lend towards the World Expo bid. And BTS is still commodified by how the media and fans are treating them, based on how much of their economic power and creative output is gonna be on hold if they enlist. BTS can never win in this situation and i guess for me, when they announced they were going to enlist I actually just let out a sigh of relief. Bc that was their decision and maybe they chose the best thing for them to walk away from commodification for a few years until they are far removed from that burnout and ready to make creative output. I will say though, that convo surrounding the disagreenent with compulsary enlistment is missing the very real dangers of harrassment that people, especially public figures, endure during their enlistment. I always think about Taemin and the damage he's had to psychologically and emotionally endure, and he's still not done. There's not enough talk about the damage imperialism, and the toxic patriarchal ideals it draws its values from, deals to people's lives, even in times there's no war. Overall, I resonate with you about how discourse about this issue is dehumanizing for BTS, from all sides of the discourse. BTS deserves better, not in terms of exemption and not just by the SK gov't, but from everyone who fail to realize that BTS are actual human beings who deserve to not be treated as a product, but that they deserve to just BE and that is enough.
Yes! How many entertainers are harassed during their enlistment? That is something that is swept under the rug. I hope that the guys are treated respectfully. Unlike what many of the other K-pop idols had to endure. 😢
oh god, is taemin okay? i haven't kept up with the kpop world too much other than being superficially engaged... hearing that the military is/was a potentially traumatizing experience for him breaks my heart. and i agree with everything you said. its what has been on my mind ever since that first meeting about exemption for idols was held with all the other companies and bts's name was brought up when they had nothing to do with it. they have been taken advantage of and commoditised by every single party in this debate about exemption, and not one has distinctly brought up their cultural contribution and merit. its frustrating and sad.
I was also relieved when they announced their enlistment. Because even though it’s fucked up that they have to at all (and that anyone HAS to go in the first place), at least they’re not being pushed around by the “will they won’t they” whims of their government. I’m glad it’s not being held over their heads anymore.
For me it's not about how much money they've made for Korea, but rather what they have done for Korea's reputation in the world. Also how much they have done and continue to do for the promotion of Korean culture and language. I'm not even Korean myself and I feel so proud. It just kinda hurts to see that their own government doesn't appreciate them but tries to exploit them like this.
Your video made me rethink my feelings towards this issue, it opened my "fangirling" filled brain to a more responsible and mature way of looking at the situation. Now it makes more sense to me why the boys kept on telling ARMY to trust them, because they decided on this, and they knew fans will be mad or disappointed. It also made me realize that I and maybe majority of the fanbase were never even aware that we were kind of being selfish for not wanting them to enlist just because we didn't want the contents to stop for quite a long time for our own selfish reasons, we didn't even consider the fact that they might really want to enlist so that they could have somewhat normal lives and be treated as normal Korean guys away from all the lime light, controversies and watchful eyes of the industry even if it's just inside the military base. I'm sure it's hard to admit, but I myself just realized it now and I feel bad. You are 100% correct in saying that although they are rich and famous, that does not guarantee that they are living happily to their heart's content. Because of their passion towards their craft and fanbase, it is all the more reason for them to grind every day without rest so that they provide us with high quality music, which will then lead to burn out. So having said this, their enlistment will in a way let them experience a new environment away from the tiring life of being in the Music Industry. Like a breath of fresh air. Going back to RM's statement during the FESTA dinner, it all connects now since he was talking about being tired and not having the freedom to do a lot of things due to the watchful eyes of the public. It may also pertain to how the SK govt. has been using them for the past 2 years. BTS' decision to enlist was for their own good & benefit, and as RM said....we should just trust them :)
i disagree respectfully, there has been enough documentation of how enlisted celebrities face harassment or so much invasion of privacy, one famous kpop idol was filmed showering? i think something in that sense. so it is definitely not a vacation of fun or free time. they are serving because there was no choice left and they realised the government was going to keep indulging in this mess of who deserves it or not, with other entertainment companies pushing the discourse to get exemption for their own idols. but this does not change the fact that they are critical of the mandatory enlistment, Yoongi and Namjoon have spoken on how it steals youth away and it being unfair. We can trust in them to make their decisions without trying to glorify forced military service, especially when corruptions leads to many being exempted from this. Ironically, if we glorify this service as a free time to comfort our heart, we are still being selfish.
Exemption was a proverbial Swords of Damocles on their necks and likely would have been for the rest of their career. They could have been in a situation where they were beholden to the whims of certain executives and politicians and would have had a lot less freedom of choice. Increased scrutiny from the public because now they were on a pedestal and one slight mistake would have earned them everyone's ire. I don't think military conscription is ever a light topic that can be seen as a "vacation" of sorts but by doing what they were supposed to do they freed themselves from hypothetical shackles. It was a damned if they did, damned if they didn't situation and I think they were aware of it hence the decision.
Exactly this! Making that announcement was a power move; maybe not in terms of actual bargaining power or getting what they ultimately want out of life, but certainly in terms of getting to decide their own path and not being used as pawns by a right-wing government that views them as nothing more than a commodity.
@@emilycrewe3794 there were discussions of them serving by performing as a part of the government. That is so anti what BTS was, and still is. Their artistry would be on a chain. By the government. That would've been horribly ironic to particularly I think of 2015 BTS, but BTS as a whole and what I interpret to be their beliefs based on their music.
since everyone else is sharing, i'll put in my two (or ten, lol) cents in the penny pile i don't like to lord the fact that i've been a fan since bts's debut over other fans or in general, but the more that i confront & extrapolate my experiences both participating in the fandom and watching it the more striking (if predictable) i find the differences between now & the earlier years. there appears to be a turning point in 2017 with the first exponential global boom. celebrities, esp k-pop idols, are always more of an idea and less of a person, but this was the first time that bts had encountered such mass dehumanization. before wings, and a bit after, while they were still v much celebrities & so a mythology, there was a chill, down-to-earth character to the overall fandom that existed in spite of being sizable. the value was on enjoying ourselves & bts enjoying themselves. but with the advent of more ppl, pressure, and the tour + love yourself series, that...dramatically shifted. even just between pre and post ly: her's release. fundamentally, it's just what happens when fandoms swell past a certain capacity. the boys have been very effectively stereotyped, their personalities removed from their images in favor of popular ideas or the literal images provided by the institution. the animal emojis, for example. none of the boys chose them & all of them were popularized bc of touch-and-go fandom/brand associations & not much else--unlike before (most obvious being yoongi & namjoon, yoongi going from almost always a reptile to a cat bc...catboys lmao. and joon was literally just assigned his bt21 character). even (& inevitably) the love yourself concept itself became a commodity/brand, turning into this sanitized ideal of positivity and self-love that's now integral to bts's marketing & fan recruitment. not even mentioning the simultaneous expansion of bighit as a cooperation. this to illustrate that what bts, the people, actually enact & try to impart is sifted through a much more impenetrable filter of narratives than before, that either suit their brand or their fandom's ideas. which are inextricably linked to begin with, but you could probably go so far to say that army is bts's brand now--which is the issue. bts is defined by other people & the abstract rather than the actual members at this point in their careers, which is...pretty damn different from not only what they were in the beginning but also what they stood for AND what the fandom was interested in. to a degree this is just a necessary fixture of fame--you by definition grow beyond yourself, and it's its own entity. but bts were a special kind of unprepared for the way capitalism would grasp the moving appendages of their celebrity, due to like...all of their particular circumstances, including just how much fame there is. makes the commodification & politicization (as a tool) almost seamless. esp keeping them working all the time, so it's harder for them to tune into their diluting corporeal presence. nevermind that they've mentioned how frightening it is to look the basic terms of their success in the face. so. i'm not surprised the noise abt enlistment centers what bts is worth (economically or personally to fans) instead of what the boys actually want, if aggravated by so many armys missing the point. excavating bts as an institution from capital is impossible, and was never avoidable, but the members still believe in their own personal agency. which is likely why they're putting a stopgap in the momentum now (& honed in on fans to shut out external influences the last few years). burnout is the clear motivation, but my hope is that reclaiming some of the autonomy they've lost to their success is the outcome. my only concern is for their personal wellbeing going into such a notoriously fraught environment for idols (and in general). i think jungkook & yoongi will be fine, but the rest are probably going to struggle. esp jimin, taehyung, and seokjin. the least they should have is the freedom to do it on their own terms. it's fucked that they had to take it back but i'm proud they have. bts are best when they're ballsy edit: reading this tangent again to respond to ppl's replies makes me want to point out that while i stand by everything i said atm, there is a pervasive narrative in the fandom that bts were essentially independent from the capitalism of the k-pop system in their earlier years, which i implicitly gave legitimacy here. i want to append: that's just part of the mythology. bts were independent of a lot of the k-pop system's abuse, not its capitalist model and grooming. they were not spared from harmful practices standardized by the foundations of the industry. being forced to live together isolated from their support systems as kids reliant on their label to survive, their worth being defined by how well they performed said label's criteria under threat of termination, having their bodies and physical appearances monitored and policed, ect. the system groomed them to be products for commodification by conceiving of bts within the industry, even if done with honorable intent. hence that separating bts as an entity from capital is impossible and was never avoidable. it was the plan. no ethical consumption under capitalism and all that. short of upending the entire world's economic structures & philosophies, bts aren't undoing their commodification lmfao. but the also unavoidable struggle for personal agency within fame is separate from capitalism, if deeply intersecting in most cases, which is what i was mulling over & hope bts overcome.
@rhymelon @Vulvasaur thank you, it's actually relieving to hear that other fans like the insight, since initiating any dialogue abt it usually ends in ostracization or outright excommunication in the fandom (largely due to what i described abt fan narratives). tho i did make an addendum after re-reading it not at 3am lol
@@eli-sg9gp can I ask for clarification of what you mean about initiating dialogue about "it" in fandom? Like their commodification and wanting to pull back their autonomy from narratives imposed on them by fandom and the businesses and govt involved?? Tossing random thoughts below as I try to articulate badly what's floating in my brain thinking about your post and additions: I remember when getting into the fandom in summer 2021, slowly osmosing more of Bangtan's history, that I had seen people mention about the 2018 contract renewals that they were considering not continuing because they were terrified of the exponential increase in fame, and I always wondered how accurate that was since I had no idea how to get at sourcing. It felt true, anyhow. That they might be worried about who they were and what they wanted to express with their music would get subsumed in the drive for economic success. (Also minor note, that's a bit why I think of them as Bangtan, vs the 'sanitized/simplified for Western/International audiences' as BTS) Idk, I'm with you in hoping that they can do what they can to claw back their autonomy, and live as best they can and get out from under the massive amount of pressure and scrutiny to whatever extent possible. The flattening effect of fame that reduces celebrities to one-dimensional, marketable characters rather than fully human is rough, especially where that intersects with different identities like perceived race, gender, sexuality, disability, religion, etc. I think that's why Seokjin's recent interview/drinking adventure with Youngji where he talked about being worried about showing any negative aspects of himself to fans really got to me. I mean, it sucks but it's also self preservation, because netizens and the general public and media are all too ready in this day and age to attack like piranhas and tear people apart for the slightest reason :((( I have no idea where I'm going with all of this but thank you for your thinky thoughts that have triggered my own thinky thoughts 💜
@@eli-sg9gp also if you want to continue chatting more about this kind of thing elsewhere since I like your thinky thoughts, i have no idea where most of the fandom hangs out since I don't twitter, but I usually hang out on Tumblr (rhythmelia) and discord (rhythmia) ^_^ still pondering reviving my dreamwidth account aha
Thoroughly insightful, Elliot. The dehumanization part reminded me of how Seokjin mentioned in a recent interview that as a result of training since the age of 19, he hardly has any close friends. It made me sadder than the enlistment news. I treasure BTS with my life but them churning out stuff constantly during the pandemic and later despite of announcing a hiatus was more concerning to me than being exciting. I couldn't watch this year's Festa dinner after seeing clips of Joon breaking down over their decision to take a break and feeling that they are going to lose their fans. When you can't take a break without feeling guilty about it, there is something terribly and fundamentally wrong. As you said, BTS deserves better.
Well, that's a different approach which I didn't think through. But my (personal) point of argument is when you are being forced to do more for your country, than you are naturally supposed to do as normal citizen, then what that says about your govt. The govt can not let BTS go, because the money BTS is bringing, but do not have courage to say that publicly. What a coward. If you are using them, then say it. Only good thing that came out of this is BTS took the decision themselves, it was supposed to be their decision when they enlist and they made the choice, irrespective of what govt wanted.
I thought the same thing. Remember when the guys talked about being uninspired and how they didn't even know themselves anymore. Early on having the monotonous schedule. I'm really excited for them to break free and do something different. To grow. And the fact they chose this and maybe a middle finger to whomever and not trying to use their influence (which they never did) to get out of it or push their own value ($) I'm gonna be selfishly sad because I'm a human of my time but I'm mostly so fucking stoked! I really am excited for them to have these experiences
Agree, the boys have been doing this for too long without a break ! Excited for them to be by themselves for a while, them to experience life, date, get married, have kids - I feel like 10 years to us and ARMY is more than enough and we care for them too
They never said that, antis said that to claim BTS weren't themselves anyomore. Y'all RUclips "armys" are the biggest antis istg but I guess you got the likes you wanted.
@@karlaalexa211 for one example in one of Hobis logs early on in their debut he specifically mentioned that and for another RM talked about that in a Bangtan interview being shuffled from shooting to practice, performances and around again when did he have time to be inspired. So maybe you just missed those. I'm an all around ARMY and I left a comment because I really liked the video. 🫡💜
I was reading the comments on here and I really appreciate how articulate insightful and we'll read the armys are on here. This is the real army, far away from the chaos of Twitter or the immaturity of ig. I loved the video and loved reading every insightful comment.
I am a big BTS stan, but I have been out of touch with news related to them in recent days. So I knew only surface level stuff about the military service thing. I came across a lot of stuff where BTS said "fu*k you* to the government in one of their performance (in a subtle way, of course". After watching your video and realising that they did the Busan concert for free and the SK govt essentially took the credit for it, I am enraged. Absolutely enraged. I know BTS had wanted to do a free concert for fans, but this is like you said, exploitation. They probably had their career best performances at this concert. The new choreographies, new versions of old songs, it was all a visual treat. BTS never disappoints fans.
Never once have I heard BTS members say they weren't going to go to the military. It was requested that Army trust the members by they themselves~ from that moment on I have given them exactly that. Simple. Easy. Respect.
Great video as always, Elliott! My five cents to add to it is that maybe for them like for any artist new experiences is what would invigorate their artistic drive and pull them out of this constant loop of producing new music and overworking themselves without rest. It's like a necessary pause to allow for a personal growth apart from each other to bring something new to the table when they reunite. I love what RM said about longevity of the group, that they need to rework the way they will operate in the future to ensure they go on for the next 20 years and more. They will start having families and BTS will inevitably morph into a different type of group. And we are here for the ride!
Adding my 2 cents, I think one reason the ‘South Korea govt dumb for making themselves lose money’ narrative is so rampant is because a lot of coverage doesn't emphasize that it was BTS’ own decision to enlist, so it makes the focus on the government’s exemption standards rather than BTS’ wishes. The mandatory aspect also doesn't really help because people easily assume that it being mandatory is more significant in the decision than what BTS actually want. Most of the ARMYS I saw were proud of BTS for making a decision themselves and at first refrained from speaking abt the govt. It was only when the news blew up internationally & non-fans started giving their takes that I saw ARMYs joining/supporting criticizing the govt because (1) non-fans were acknowledging BTS' impact, which we love, and (2) the govt has Not Been Nice and it's nice to see the entire world know that for once. (Keep in mind all this is just based on the ARMYs I follow! so) Additionally, I don’t think non-fans are aware that the govt had previously talked abt alternative service in which BTS would continue idol activities but all the profits would go to the govt. So they weren’t exactly 'dumb', they’re very much aware BTS brings a lot of money, and (this is a speculation) already had plans in place to exploit it for themselves rather than letting BTS be, but then BTS surprised them by announcing their enlistment. I know a lot of people see this as a big fuck you to the govt, which it is, but I think it's important to remember it really could be more of a natural consequence of everything that happened rather than BTS’ main intention. Yes it’s a smart way to avoid owing anything to govt and to avoid further exploitation. But they’ve always said they were going to serve, they also said they wanted to slow down their pace so they can continue making music long-term, and there could be other reasons we don’t know about that have nothing to do with politics or money. And it’s really nice to be reminded of that rather than limiting the discussion to their role in society, 'values over value' like you said. All in all I think I can speak for a lot of fans when all I want is for BTS to be happy, I trust that they know what they want and I fully support their decisions. Btw I love your videos, they’re all incredibly nuanced and insightful!
I was 14 in 2015 when I started listening to BTS. Now I’m 21. In 2025 I’ll be 24. And despite me probably not being too much into the fandom since 2020, I still have a very soft place for them. I wish them the very best. For them to stay safe and healthy. And I know this ain’t the end. It’s the start of a new era.
Although I was super sad to hear the enlistment news, and really really really wanted them to get that exemption, the more I see some of their solo interviews, the more I realize that this decision may have been the best thing for them. They desperately need that time away from everything, especially the constant exploitation. As ARMY, I think we didn't realise how much the relationship we have with BTS may have stunted their personal growth, because we have that time to disconnect from them and engage in other things, whereas they really didn't as much since they were constantly working. With all that being said, I think there was still a different form arguing for their exemption that doesn't necessarily come down to their monetary value, at least not explicitly. The representation that BTS has provided for Asians, and more specifically South Koreans, all over the world is immeasurable. Coming from South Africa, I've seen first-hand how they've transformed the social landscape for South Koreans in my country, and not just monetarily but in terms of their human rights and discrimination against them as well, and I'm sure this is what has occurred globally as well. The increase in the amount of people engaging in South Korean culture at any level is in large part due to them, so from a soft power perspective they deserved the exemption as well. I wish them good luck on their enlistment, and I hope they get to hate and enjoy as much as any other South Korean man or atleast celebrity that has previously enlisted.
Yeah, I think from an international fan's perspective the main purpose of them doing the regular military service is to lift pressure off their shoulders (Every hyped up artist needs a longer break for their private life & to lower expectations). It doesn't help the military (in case of war escalation) though. They are more valuable as tax payers & marketing figures than they could ever be as soldiers (modern weapons are expensive af). Like, for example the guys from Kalush Orchestra were allowed to leave Ukraine for a couple of days to compete in the Eurovision Song Contest (some of them were in active duty, but at least the rapper hasn't done military service/training). After winning, they sold their trophy to fund the war - at least the 900k they received could be almost enough for one of those high-tech rockets...
I never thought about the fact that Army always have the option to step away but BTS don't. Thank you for giving me that perspective. Over the years I have not had the constant kpop/BTS content consumption I used to have when I was younger and have appreciated having the time to do and enjoy other things. To think about the fact that BTS have not had that opportunity and have been constantly enveloped in that world making, creating and working endlessly makes me soooo glad that they are taking a break and working on solo projects/enlisting. I was already supportive of the decision before but now I feel like it's a HUGE WELL DESERVED time away and I hope it serves them well.
@Kate Moore if men have to be forced to serve women should to. everyone or no one. bc if 7 men not knowing basic military somehow makes as much of a impactic as you think it is in times of war why aren't women forced to do the same? all hands on deck right? don't they all live in the same country?
This is it. This says it all. Love your content. I'm feeling so enlightened. I supported BTS military enlistment wholeheartedly when they announce it so and I was happy for them cause those people who drag them for the so called potential exemption were now devoid of that reason. But now I understand how BTS decision to enlist is more than any online debate topic. Thank You.
This was a great video. Their bombshell announcement in June really affected me as a fan, but also as someone who is the same age as several of the members, and who was also experiencing burn out at the time. In a strange way I really empathised with everything they said to us. Although it hurts knowing that we won't get to see them as much for the next couple of years, I think at the end of the day, they've given us so much as fans, and I just want them to be happy and healthy in the end. It hurts to see people you love expressing the pain or turmoil they're going through. Regarding enlistment, I'm extremely against the idea of compulsory military service, but glad that in the end the members took the decision on for themselves.
I applaud BTS for their decision to enlist. They never asked for exemption but have reiterated that they will enlist when called upon. I believe BTS are men of value because of their person, not their economic value. I trust their decisions and will always pray for their safety and happiness. BTS ARMY forever💜
Very interesting discussion, thank you for your perspective! I also appreciated the explanation of details about Hobi's verse of "Ma City" - never heard about that, and it's always great to find another nugget of info about their lyrics.
a very nuanced take, i agree with most of the points that you make though i can't help but find issue with the prospect of seeing compulsory military enlistment as "rest"
I really believe they deserved an exemption even if they didn't take it. Not just for the economy or anything but because of the awareness they have brought to Korea. I don't think I'd be even taking Korean if I never discovered them. They truly deserved better. I think it's really unfair that people are being forced to do any kind of military service.
Honestly even if BTS were given an exemption, it probably wouldn’t have been within the best interests of the South Korean public. Especially the males who’d see it as unfair that BTS didn’t have to serve. Last thing we need now is for BTS’s own general public to turn on them. And tbh even though in the military they won’t be resting, atleast they’ll get a chance to do something different than what they’ve been doing the last few years. Idk, I’m still extremely upset that they’ll be gone, but I think then starting the release of solo projects this year was good as it had kind of prepared/eased me into the idea of them not doing group activities for a while. Smart move from them honestly because I don’t know how we would’ve all reacted if they’d just upped and left without preparing us. And besides I think BTS knew they were going to enlist just from hints at the PTD tours, and they chose to take the boss route by not being played around the the SK government any longer.
As always, great video. I will admit, some of those magic man economy words flew over my head 😭 but I've definitely gotten the sense that a lot of these conversations over bts's enlistment has done nothing but feed in to capitalism and the commodification of art and performance. Anyway, i think they made the right choice to enlist and imma still be here in 2025 cause i still gotta catch up on all the run bts episodes and finish processing the fact that hyyh happened. 💀
I don't think it was a good choice, the Minister of Defense wants to exploit them while doing military service, that can affect badly their mental and physical health
I think it was inevitable that they would go and I think they've been planning this for a very long time... like back to MOTS7 era, and it's also worth stressing that beyond the request for deferment until they turn 30, BTS never asked for exception. This was all something initiated by other entertainment companies and became a can for the government to kick down the road until the last possible moment. Just like always, the boys wont be pawns or toys and I think they recognized that being handed and exemption under the current administration would have been a disaster for them and their possible longevity as a group. That being said, as worried as I am about how they will be treated (I don't expect them to be coddled or pampered, but you hear some horrible things about how Idols have been treated), I do think this will be a valuable experience for them. They said during their Festa dinner that they've run out of things to say, that they needed to experience life and grow, and I think this would be a chance to see things from a new perspective while being among people close to their age. I know they're good, humble, people who will work hard and earn respect so I'll remain hopeful that they will not only be able to get this period behind them with little, to no, damage done to their bodys and spirits, but maybe they'll gain something from this too.
A more recent article from last year speaks about how BTS is worth 0,5% of SK's GDP, ca. 5 Billion USD. But you are absolutly right that that is neither here nor there. In my opinion it is just concentrating of which kind of value we can track down the easiest: money. Far more interesting are BTS actually as political capital: There was an Interview - that I have unfortunately trouble tracking down - that I think was between the speaker of fromer SK president Moon and that political commentator Kim Eo-juns (sp? do I have the right name at all?). It was because the press refused to give the than president a chance for clout so the barely reported on BTS in New York at the SDG moment of the UNGA in 2021. He spoke about how it was pretty much the first time that politicians came to them and asked the SK politicians for time - because of BTS. Politicians lingered - despite usually having no time - to watch BTS record their performance and they asked after BTS. The SK delegation wanted to give SK art away. The UN has a waiting list with no influence from the giver where the art in the end lands. So they asked the Met if they were interested. They were not. The speaker claimed he said how sad he was about that as they had planed to send over the wife of the SK president and BTS with the art. They would ask other museums. The speaker of the Met he was talking to immidetly changed the response and they made a special after hours event for the art giving. Namjoon even gave a speech. Another example is that the wife of president Moon went to Saudi Arabia with a guest gift: a pop-up book of Baby Shark and special Collectors Edition dolls of BTS in Hanbok. Or you could talk about how when they renewed their project of the Love Myself campain with the headquarter of UNICEF SK the leader exitedly told them that he heard - after Namjoon's UN speech in 2018 - another poltician say, that SK had archieved 2 great things in the last 60 years: on one hand democracy and economic growth and on the other the creation of BTS. So... yeah... political capital and soft power - pretty much every news agency with foreign news spoke about SK sending BTS to the military - quiet a bit even postiv about BTS at least. That is for me far more interesting and far harder to track. Personally I don't want them in the military for other reasons: SK military has multiple problems: corruption, sexual harassment (even rape) of female personal and bullying. The last is pretty bad. I heard that it leads to ca. 2 suicides a day - which seem a lot. And we have seen what it can do to other famous Idols like G-Dragon and Taemin. The common theme seems to be that it is traumatizing and I don't want that for anyone. I'm with you that taking their fate into their own hands was the right thing to do and it is their life so they should make their own decisions. That was and is very brave. Thank you for this vid! 💜
I just hope they are properly protected in the military. I’ve heard bullying idols in the military is a common thing - Taemin (Jimin’s close friend and idol) was bullied in the military, which is a part of the reason, or at least contributed, to his declining mental health; they gave him an alternative way of serving because of it.
An excellent exposition on the topic, Elliot. I uncovered so much, and self-reflected that my own feelings of sadness about the news of enlistment were driven by the trappings of reducing the BTS members to mere commodities of this industry, as content for my own consumption. But they and their impact on me have been more than that! RM's Rolling Stones interview with Pharrell came out after this video was released. But I think what he said there reinforced some of Elliot's points. RM talked about how disorienting it was for him and his members to have evolved from musicians to larger-than-life social figures who suddenly had the responsibility of being cultural ambassadors, delivering UN speeches, meeting presidents, etc. While I assume that they sort of accepted this newfound role as part and parcel of BTS' exploding influence, they might have felt burdened by it as it was not what they had intended for themselves nor helped them grow in musical artistry. I think they craved being musicans that performed for their fans and given the requisite gestation period to produce good music, rather than be pressured to come out with banger after banger while being pulled to do other activities. After sorting out my thoughts, I'm glad that they are enlisting. If anything, this time away from their all-consuming career demands might take them back to their roots in being badass musicians and producers. Even if it means losing fans during their period of absence, that is fine as long as they regain control over the trajectory of their careers as a band and inspire a new direction forward.
I moved up in my career and was the most miserable I've ever been. My new position paid more, but was incredibly stressful and I constantly felt overworked. I had no time for the things I loved, and if I did get the time then I didn't have the energy. I spent a year trying to make it work, thinking I must be doing something wrong if my "improved" position was making my life worse, before I quit and moved back down the ladder a bit. At first I was incredibly nervous about doing this because I thought it would be percieved as failure, when it turned out to be the best thing I could have done for myself. My health and happiness dramatically improved when I rejected the idea that the value of my life was how much I could produce.
Always like your perspective. What you said is not only informative but also refreshing, and I appreciate the humane side while enjoying your logical analysis. Thank you.
tbh regardless of why they decided on it, this is the best possible decision for BTS. I truly think they need to take a proper break from the ladder of fame they have been climbing since 2017. As someone mentioned....it might be an unpopular opinion but I think they have lost their autonomy over their music since they launched into this worldwide fame. And given that how much hard they have worked on top of that, they do seem to be on verge on burnout. Regardless of what people might say about Hybe/Bighit, at the end of the day they are an entertainment company and they have been using BTS as their cash cow for quite some time. Overall it did seem that even their music identity wise BTS was becoming dehumanized since their music style changed a lot to generic American pop and more foreign producers jumped onboard with less and less participation from BTS overall. This is a much needed break for them and for ARMY. I truly hope that when they come back after their military service, they will show us a new face and be more free to express their artistic sides regardless of whether it is solo or group. I'll be cheering for them throughout this.
The president didn't serve because he had an eye problem. The minister didn't serve because he have a bone problem. I just don't understand how a famous pianist and a famous violinist got exempted and not BTS but I am glad BTS make this decision themselves rather than letting government dragging on etc I saw tons of fake articles saying it is BTS themselves that drag this. How can BTS drag this and not the government when BTS and suga in the song "what do you think" talk about serving whenever it is their time. Jin also spoke about it but it is the companies that use BTS name in order for future idol exemption. around 20 companies had the meeting. Bighit, the company for BTS did not even join the metting. And I rather BTS just serve like normal citizens than what the minister said BTS can perform still serving at military because imagine the strain of performing and at the same time in the military. That's overwork. My friend who served in the military said he slept like a dog everyday and is always out of energy it is not easy work. Just imagine BTS performing, earning nothing, because all money goes to the government and like maybe even flying jetlagged and next day go back to the military?
Thank you for this very articulate analysis of what BTS is suffering through and what they have to deal with. I rather they find personal happiness even if it means they cut these exploitative ties to corporations, government, politicians....etc. I rather attend less concerts, buy less merch if it means that our 7 Kings can live free lives. I do not want them to suffer depression like so many kpop & non kpop celebrities.
@Skullfucker I definitely did. I'm international ARMY, so I assumed there were pieces of this situation I was missing. This gave me so much food for thought and even more love for the guys.
oh my god i used to follow you on twitter when i was a bts fan. i loved your commentary and writing! im so glad your channel came up in my recommended :)
Absolutely amazing video, and well articulated! First time I’ve come across any of your videos. I’ve always known they would serve, huge part of me figured they waited as long as they could cuz they actually did enjoy what they were doing. And then it became too much for them the last couple of years. Them announcing their enlistment made me so happy and proud. I’m proud of anyone who enlists, mandatory or not. I am just glad they decided for themselves, take control. They took control when they decided they would take a slight break from group activities (music) and work on themselves and do solo work.. they needed this. And it pains me that their impact always comes down to how much they make and bring into their country.. it’s a reality but that’s not all they are. That’s not why army support them the way we do. Again great video! I also didn’t know that exemption from the military doesn’t necessarily mean being fully exempt from doing something, I learn something new everyday!
BTS taking a decision to detach themselves from all this economy they're forced to contribute to rather than just being the artists that they initially aspired to be... and now that RM's "Right Place Wrong Person" is out to the world, this claim is proven right. I am glad they took that decision for their own beneit and detox and just to restore their general humanity rather than always being viewed as a super commodity.
“Sometimes we need to choose our values over our value!” Key insight, Elliot. Agree with you that that’s what the boys did by announcing their choice to enlist. They reappropriated their right to prioritise what was important to them: SERVING as all male citizens are expected to, and TIME to rethink and recreate themselves, not as the industry imagined they should, nor as the authorities wished, to exploit their economic power, but as serious artists with a changing vision of what they could DO and BE. They really never expected to be treated differently, and they have now asserted their preference not to be commodified. Your analysis is useful, and had to be voiced.
I didn't want them to go, but knew that they had to. An exemption would have damaged their image in SKorea no matter how it came about. Rock/hard place territory. But they made the decision and the gen public will remember that later. So BTS won.
This video changed my way of thinking. Bro you’re so smart, I’m watching your videos from now on. I love the way you can intelligently explain all these things in a way I can understand them. Thank you!!!
*Name one citizen in Korea that has done military, finished 6 years as Seoul Ambassadors and now Busan Expo Ambassadors. All of these are literal services to the country* I have been following the politics to every assembly. From the conflict between the members of the ministry of culture sports and tourism. The very recent session they first said each case of a possible exemption should be addressed individually and calculated depending upon its scenario and contribution. A while later as a reply to a question by the ministers who are for it, the same person said we can't take the group particularly and discuss. Then when asked about what are the criterias for exemption, for the nth time he said he is 'looking into it'. That's the statement the government has been saying for the past 3 years now. In short the laws in itself are flimsy and the politicians are the one that gain from the politics around military. The law is not criteria based but just depends upon ideas that even politicians can't decide on. And the irony? BTS never asked for a full on ministry session on their exemption. After BTS got the order of Cultural Merit, the government took it up themselves, and the statement when this became a government talk was exemption isn't a favour to the group, but a favour to the rising soft power of South Korea. Its clear its only misusing BTS as pawns. At what point in this world did ambassadors have to pay for tourism promotion? Well according according SK gov BTS must not only exert themselves for for free concert but pay for the infrastructure too. Moreover what about chaebol's sons or the history of politicians who buy out of the military? Nonethless! Since I have been researching for quite a while, well done! You have explained it perfectly touching upon all sides of the story and making it processable for those who are unaware.
Well said!! We are not here just for BTS's looks or dance skills. They do matter, but thats a tiny part. We love BTS for who they are and how they conduct themselves and also that they are so humble even in constrained situations. Not only will they have longevity as a group, they will inspire many many more in the years to come. No one can target them anymore once this military service is done. But ARMY will be more proud and support them 10 times more. But as far as SK is concerned..na ah..I am done. The hypocrisy and incompetance in decision making is palpable.
sad but also very relieved with the news. if im allowed to have my opinion on this topic, i think that while it might seem understandably unfair in the face of the existing law that bts weren't exempted, the law that allows the exemptions in various fields is in general unfair to regular civilians who also work hard. i think that perhaps the boys also recognise that and dont want to benefit from such privileges. after all, they've always introduced themselves as "just 7 boys from korea". getting entangled in a political drama is really not worth it. im proud and assured that they make smart decisions and keep their values. also, if they got exempted, it wouldnt be "here, you're free to go and do whatever you want now". no 💀the gov wouldnt let them be. i just hope that they fulfill their duty well, healthily, and when they come back they don't feel like they owe people shit
I didn't watch the video yet but I have a question. In the Big Hit statement said that Jin will follow the "government procedures" but what procedures?? Have they (the government) agreed with his enlistment or will they give another option like exemption/alternative service ??? The govt didn't give a clear response yet
given that theyll each serve the year and a half or so time period im sure theres no exemption coming. i assumed by government procedures they mean he’ll do as the standard procedure requires
From what've heard, I think you register the enlistment and the government take from 2 wks to 2 months to send you the actual time/place notice of when/where to serve.
This is video really changed my perspective, before my only thoughts about the enlistment were "i hope they'll be okay" and "i will miss them". Truly, everything is political, and shame on me for forgetting about that.
Elliot your videos are always well done and very researched, I love how you use your words and speak about topics like this that could make people see the situation a bit differently. To talk about the Busan concert specifically and the topic of the SK government using them as piggy banks, even I as an Army was a bit a alarmed and concerned by them hosting a whole concert on their behalf FOR free. And when BTS do concerts.. they serve too hard, and the boys always try to reassure us and tell us that they find joy in preforming and seeing Army is rewarding enough.. but then again, we don’t know them personally and there’s more to it when right after that concert the news of them being enlisted to the military was just released. It makes me think that they used that last chance to be together again to say some form of “goodbye” even though their beginning is yet to come. Idk.. but that’s just my thoughts.
Woa this was definitely the best and most interesting bts commentary video I’ve seen so far! I really hope that this decision will give them peace in some way.
I’m not a bts fan (not that I dislike them just don’t consume a lot of K-pop) but I enjoyed this video. I appreciate your Anti-capitalist analysis of the situation.
Very precise presentation by an obviously bright young person…excellent… my point is simply this .. the Exemptions are based on the positive contribution to promoting a positive image of South Korea and its culture around the world….the South Korean soccer team who won a gold medal in the Asian games …. a regional distinction… compared to a group that has given speeches at the United Nations .. spurred on people learning the Korean language and singing along in Korean at the concerts…. and breaking all types of records around the globe …. there is no comparison… I mean it’s comical…I follow soccer… not a fanatic by any means … and I hadn’t heard about this gold medal until long after the fact….if they want to avoid controversy…. No exemptions for anyone beyond physical capabilities
The Government cannot force them to continue work as BTS while in the military and take their earnings anyway, because the members are under a legal contract with Hybe - there would be a vicious court battle over that if the government tried to force them into that scenario. The government has no legal right to take Hybe’s or BTS’ earnings - over and above what they’re entitled to as shareholders (the pension fund) and taxes - they can try but then that resembles the behaviour of a dictatorship/autocracy; in that case, they will have big problems with their citizens, likely causing an uprising, if they think their government is heading in that direction - they will not tolerate losing their democracy to a repressive society like N. Korea or Russia, for example.
I've been a fan of BTS for 4 years now and honestly, I have always thought about how valuable they are to the korean government, but at the same time it felt kinda wrong. I dehumanized them without realising it, but my subconscious knew that something was wrong with that view. Now that I'm getting more into economy (thanks to uni), I understand what you are talking about much better. So yeah, this was quite helpful
i completely agree with you but adding to the conversation, the military complex is itself also a dehumanizing organization as well built under the pretences of nationalism and while bts made the choice to not be under-humanized for their perceived capitalistic value, the major problem lies within the false idea of choice created by the capitalists and the government in which no matter which pill you choose to swallow, you are not an individual, nor a collective, but a tool to produce or to sacrifice.
i was sad at first to find out bts was going into the military but after giving it some thought, i was glad. they decided to control their own destinies, to stop being used and jerked around by others. since their beginnings and more recently, they have been stepped on by the music industry in general and the american media platforms. i am so proud of their strength and their ability to refuse and not be pawns. so many people in the world of entertainment loose themselves by ego, fame, money and bad advice. bts is showing how they are strong with their feet on the ground, their lyrics to 'bs&t, 'on, 'am i wrong and 'fake love comes to mind. the worlds media outlets are proclaiming them 'world superstars' and talking of their worth''. what will they be called when they return in 2025? ''icon'' and ''world superstars'' will not be good enough for them, we are going to need a new word category. they are taking a path that is not selfish or arrogant. bts is remaining humble and has taken the high ground while spitting in all of the faces of the 'haters. i really liked your commentary you are always very good and detailed.
I think the takeaway was that collective of other companies banded together to use BTS to gain exemption for their idols. BTS always stated that they wanted to serve and some of us (armys) just respected that.
Did they DESERVE it? Yes. Did they WANT it? No. The boys have said from DAY ONE that they will serve when the time comes. Having lived in Korea I will tell you, if they didn't serve, their reputation amongst Koreans would be terrible. It is seen as an honor and a duty all in one. Something every young Korean man must do in an effort to protect their country from the North, a nation they are still at war with. Even for regular citizens, any effort to dodge this responsibility is a massive red mark and huge shame, even if it is done for legitimate reasons (medical reasons, education, etc). For BTS to be given the exemption would have been terrible for them in the long run. The fact the music industry is already trying to capitalize on the fact they're leaving for a bit is telling, though.
Excellent excellent discussion! I'm part of army but definitely subbed your channel and will enjoy your other discussions yes I understand you are not a K-pop content Channel. Looking forward to your future and past content. Thank you for doing such a premium job with this. I'm in total agreement
Thank you for this, it is a wake up call for many toxic Army's around the world. Integrity was first thought when I heard about BTS revoking their deferments. After listening to your show, I àm feeling proud of their decision. I am.looking forward to 2025, as their true feelings of all this will come to light. I am 52yr old and I support all good humans, as they are scarce. Thank you!!
This was such an interesting video and I really like your point of view as to why bts decided to enlist. It helps me feel more at ease with them going. And yes it's extremely dehumanizing to evaluate someone based on the profit their skilss make.
Incredibly well said and thoughtful. I’ve had a hard time articulating my thoughts and feelings on everything, but next time anyone asks i’ll send them this. I enjoyed listening to a lot of the bby gang catalog, and enjoy hearing a lot of your thoughts on this channel since then and was glad to see this video in my feed. I’ve been procrastinating watching this and i really wish i hadn’t now! Thanks for sharing.
i didn’t quite get a lot of the technical terms (i’m just slow lol) but you spoke so well and by the end of it i got the general message. this was very well done, thank you for making and uploading this :) can’t wait to watch more of your content xx
Personally, I think BTS should be offered exemption, regardless whether they'd have taken it or not. I think the financial worth argument came bc Korean ppl currently don't want to admit to or can't comprehend or no longer value the global attention and national prestige (smt that exemptions were based off of in the first place) they constantly bring to their country, culture, traditions, and history that I don't believe any other act out of Korea has done (at least, not to the scale BTS has). That their presence strongly influenced an uptick of Korean language studies among foreigners throughout the years (to the point they received a gov award for it back in 2018), and how they sing abt their society, in both its current state and past (such as Hobi's verse of the Gwangju Uprising), greatly color the shape of the current Hallyu wave, from which Korea and its influence has become more well-known and actually recognized among the global population. And their impact is smt that I think is taken for granted bc of how, ironically, this current awareness of Korea is smt BTS has been at the forefront of for years now. And ironically again, I think it would've been more likely that BTS could've been granted exemption 2019-2020 bc their influence was better felt back then in Korea, esp as more Korean products (for lack of a better word) were also starting to gain real consideration outside of just east Asia, than it is even now, where Korea seems to still get shocked now at how well received BTS is outside of the country (like the recent welcome and special treatment Jin got from Argentina to attend a Coldplay concert or the one Jungkook got from Doha for his still undisclosed side project makes headlines instead of being treated as par the norm for BTS). And I think BTS does agree with you abt capitalism, tho I don't think going to the military would be seen as a time to rest/get away just based on how ppl currently talk abt mandatory service in Korea (including the troubling reveals abt mental health issues and privacy invasion from idols in service) and how even BTS once viewed it (or at least, how Yoongi did in _Adult Child;_ of course, he could've changed his mind, as you've reminded that as smt ppl do 😅). Not to mention, seeing how the SK gov is still trying to push for BTS performance while serving (and that's not touching the 34mo "special service" talk an official brought up), I still worry for them and how much pressure they're under and whether there could be even greater pressure later, whether during or after service, esp as Hybe grows and the whole 2030 Expo situation. The pressure and expectations their gov puts on them too is another reason I'd want them to be formally recognized by their gov (an offer for exemption would've been one way to do this), just so the position that they're being put into is acknowledged and better appreciated by the masses.
I agree with what you have said about how they should not be used as a gold making machine and not granted exemption on the basis of how valuable they can be and I totally agree and feel proud of their decision of stepping up for the service as a fan, but I also feel deep down, that they should be rewarded for how much they have done for the country economically and socially, this, without asking for anything in return can be an honour they can be bestowed upon. But then also, why is this even an honour? They have grown up with the idea of serving their country by going to the military by going to the military like every other guy there does, and have been given diplomatic passports and many other awards, then why would this be THE honour and not those? Also, I feel very weird about people, like the one in the viral tiktok video, talk about this matter so confidently and keeping such a strong opinion on the matter, without even understanding the context correctly or their situation. She is speaking as if she is a voice for the band and she is so sympathetic towards them, and not being empathetic and trying to understand their point of view. I am fully supportive of BTS and their decisions on this matter, whatever it is, period! And the more I think about it, the more I come to realize how correct it is.
hey elliot! its super nice to see you branch off (it seems im super late to the party lol). loved your bbygang content. ^_^ currently binging your other videos, it's always insightful to watch your commentaries/thoughts on stuff.
I just wanna also point out that I don't like the classical music bashing I've been hearing all throughout the bts enlistment back and forth. they train for decades to hone their crafts and I have to honestly say as both an army AND a classical pianist and violinist that learning classical music has been one of the biggest undertakings of my life. so to play it to the standard that you can win these international competitions ABSOLUTELY deserves an exemption. There are in fact lots of people out there who listen to and love classical music, myself included, and just because you may not listen to it doesn't mean its any less valuable. Not trying to attack anyone but the constant classical music bashing doesn't sit right with me.
@@utpaladas9243 I mentioned that I'm an army so if you're looking for someone to fight about whether or not bts have impacted SK you're looking in the wrong place, I know they have. But you're comparing two very different styles of music, with different expectations, standards and practices. One is not less valuable than the other simply because it is not to your personal taste, and SK have produced some world class soloists and virtuosos who have impacted their field immensely, as well as impacting future generations through teaching in many cases. You're comparing apples with oranges, but just because you prefer oranges it doesnt automatically mean that noone should eat apples anymore.
I think that it is also interesting that the idea of mandatory military service is not put into question by most people; it is fine to forcibly take people and make them serve a violent institution as long as the loss of capital is not too great. Would be cool if this made kpop fans recognize the injustice that is conscription more generally and try to advocate against it instead of only trying to see their faves exempted.
A lot of us are already against mandatory military service though but at the end of the day if we can't vote in Korea we can't really do anything to stop it Though, from what I've seen, the whole debate over bts getting exempted has been widespread over the country and maybe that has inspired some Koreans to think about whether it not mandatory military service is even necessary for anyone to do Unfortunately because most abled bodied Korean men have had to serve a lot of them run under the principle of "if I had to you have to" so mandatory service isn't going away anytime soon in Korea
Most people will not question it because in general service to country is seen as honorable duty and is a more acceptable viewpoint. But I have seen comments regarding this...not many but they are there.
Generally the fact that mandatory enlistment is a thing is one of the very first facts K-pop fans and BTS learn. A lot of fans have questioned or at least not considered it a good thing, but like Nublet above said, there's not much we can do about it. I'd add also that it's tricky grounds to discuss as a non-Korean person, given that it's too easy for some to speak for or over Korean people (or fall into weird narratives about South Korea as a whole), especially without knowing the context of the situation with North Korea and its history.
I agree with a lot of what you said. I also wished you would have added commentary on the cultural pressure that would influence their decision. This is a perspective from someone born and raised in a communist country where mandatory national service exists, where every men and most women in my family have gone through it and have also fought to liberate and defend the country. As someone with a national identity and legacy, even while living in another country and being a woman, I volunteered to serve in whatever capacity the government and my community would let me when I came of age. Going to school in Korea, I've seen teachers slap students that have negative things to say about the national service. Pupils would later bullying them. Same thing happens in university in a larger scale since you have returning students ready to gang up on anyone who remotely looks down on them. The way people talk about exemptions isn't favourable here in Korea. I can't really imagine BTS, not serving. Considering they've always said they would and they know the social consequences and the everlasting stain that would be on their image (not to say what their family would go through as well), I always thought if they went ahead they would either be forced to accept the exemption, planned on living abroad or were going to stage a political protest of some kind. I disagree with the notion that they were waiting for their future to be decided. They never for a second seemed like they had any desire not to serve or a reason to either. I can't see them adding even more stress to their lives. To me at least, they just went about it like every other Korean man I know, who waits till the last possible minute to enlist and would gladly accept an extension, but not an exemption. This affects your future employment as well... so seriously, I don't think foreign fans understand just how annoyed the general public would be and how much of a target to the new government they would become...
Before watching this I didn't know that there is such a thing as a military exemption for Korean men who make significant cultural contribution. So while I have mixed feelings about the mandatory military service, I thought it only makes sense that BTS serve in the army. I do feel like they're cheated out of the exemption, because the only way the exemption can be fairly handed out is through some quantifiable measure, such as economic value. And I'm willing to bet that BTS generates more money than that soccer team. Because if you don't quantify cultural contrulibution, then it wouldn't seem fair for one person to been deemed culturally more worthy than another. At the same time the commodification of cultural or artistic value is sad in itself. I just hope idols get to do what they want as people. And not just with the military. They deserve a break too when they want to have it.
I saw the name Elliot Sang and instantly clicked, cause I knew from twitter that your takes always have nuance even if sometimes I might not fully agree. Considering the focus of this analysis, I can't be upset that cultural value wasn't touched on because that wasn't the point of a Marxist analysis, obviously. But you did touch on a lot of reasons why the talk of BTS' economic value was uncomfortable at times. Unfortunately in a capitalist system, economic value is much easier to quantify than cultural value, but it's that conflict that started this fiasco to begin with. Exemption criteria is based off significant cultural contribution, winning awards according to certain criteria that improved Korea's international standing. On that basis alone, BTS should have been exempted but because they didn't fit into the bureaucratic technicalities and definitions, how do you "prove" their value? What award would've sufficed? Are ethically winning cultural awards (such as the Grammys) as elusive as the idea of "the American Dream", a myth that comes true in the rarest of circumstances? How do we measure cultural impact? We as fans know they've changed millions of lives globally, but how do you quantify that for bureaucracy? It sucks but I understand why people fell back onto talking about economic impact - because it's provable. But it becomes a gross precedent - do we exempt young CEOs? How much capital does an actor, inventor, investor, artist need to make to be considered? Do we expect art to prioritize money over artistry? This is why exemption criteria didn't include monetary value to begin with, even if I question awards as criteria to an extent. The conversation comes back to how capitalism forces us to dehumanize ourselves and others in order to get the least bit of "respect" we should be owed
this was really good! I'm happy you showed up on my recommended list. This is so much more nuanced than most commentary out there. You really capture a good big picture here. Will have to check out more of your stuff! Thanks for doing this
ngl i thought i would not watch all of this much less in normal speed but i just did and it was so informative in every sense! and i wasn't understandig ur point until the very end, and it was eye opening! congrats for the video, it really made me think in another perspective, and i just learned a lot of cool stuff hehe
Just as I finished watching this, I saw that the billboard music awards are hosting their own kpop version of the award show in Hope's of 'trying to find the next BTS' and I think this highlights perfectly your example of getting a new gold making machine when the old one is inactive or broken. How sad.
same I just saw it honestly this is very dehumanizing that the capitalist class is shamelessly hunting for new money machines but I'm glad the bts made a wise decision they didn't let themselves be a pawn of govt or ruling capitalists anymore.
bts definitely deserves a lot better
Artists are disposable for the government as long as they can use them
Actually, the government is planning to allow BTS members to pursue activities as a group while serving BUT the problem is according to the korean law every profit they make from those activities goes to the Government bcuz they can't make any money while being in the military it is just disgusting. As per the k billboard show it's the industry who's trying to hold it not the government
@@easypeasy6572 the industry and the government are both part of the capitalist class, so when the gold machine stops operating the capitalist tries to replace it.
@@easypeasy6572 exactly like you said also I rather BTS just serve like normal citizens because imagine the strain of performing and at the same time in the military. That's overwork. My friend who served in the military said he slept like a dog everyday and is always out of energy it is not easy work. Just imagine BTS performing, earning basically nothing, all money goes to the government and like maybe even flying jetlagged and next day go back to the military?
How can someone be denied something they NEVER asked for? No member of BTS or Big Hit has ever, not even once, asked for military exemption.
You’re right! It was a legal battle that begun in the courts from within the government.
Very true
@@ArmantoAlex13 i really agree. The government made this more bothersome for all. BTS already made it clear that they will serve when the time comes
And also neitzens who decided to jump into the argument
Jin literally said in his live he was going to the military either way
When the "group hiatus" was announced in June, we all went back to the music they made (MOTS7) and everything they said made even more sense, and that happens a lot with BTS. With each big change that happens in their career, everything just falls into place and we realise that they truly make good decisions. Same thing will happen the upcoming years, I'm sure.
Great video btw, Elliot, I loved it
Suga has publicly called out those for saying hiatus. He did it on stage in busan. I am so happy he did too. I watched all the Festa Dinner party and at no point did they ever say that. Its such a triggering word.
I loved when he did that, I was so proud of him
@@emmamcintyre6997 He told them, people should stop saying that word now. Our BTS have confirmed that's not what they said. Army that blocked people for saying it wasn't a hiatus, take note of what our yoongi said please and don't make your own translations up.
What are you talking about, I am talking about what he said at Busan when he called all the reporters out for saying BTS was on hiatus or breaking up????
@@emmamcintyre6997 so am I. My point is aimed at those who make tiktoks still saying hiatus when that's not what was said by Suga. God you turned very quickly didn't you.
There came a point when I KNEW they had no choice but to enlist no matter what, and I know BTS realized it too. They are hyper-aware of their pristine reputation and how serving is viewed by the populous. Even though many are for ending the mandatory subscription, the general sentiment is "you betta still serve tho." An exemption without meeting well established, clear and tangible criteria would have been absolutely disastrous. I strongly believe exemption criteria for pop idols in SK will be written on BTS' back and be granted to future artists. That's often the price of being a trailblazer, there are many fruits of your labor you never get to enjoy. No matter what decision their government makes now, BTS' reputation is solid. They know what they're doing and are obviously surrounded by good people. So although, as an ARMY I'm saddened, I'm not worried. Also, just for perspective; when I enlisted in the US military my basic training was 6 weeks, then my school to learn my job was 5 months, then came my mandatory on-the-job training that took another 12 months. So at my 18 month mark I had finally become certified to perform my duties unsupervised - and that's when BTS will be out-processing 🤣🤣🤣💜.
So well said. Thank you for your service & perspective. 💜
👀 well said!👏👏👏👏💜💜💜
Took all the words out of my mouth. Thank you so very much for saying this so eloquently. Even netizens alluded to this. That history will look back and appreciate BTS in ways people can not now because they are too close to it.
“That’s often the price of being a trailblazer,”
What were you speaking there…
Oh right
Straight facts
Very well put! I am definitely saving this as a reminder of BTS' power.. Sometimes I tend to forget how much they have impacted the music industry overall.. BTS will always be talked about!
Actually, what they did for me was so amazing and brave hahahaha, they announcing it after the concert was like a slap on the face to the diplomatics. And I also find it sad that ppl focussed more on their economic impact than their cultural impact, which personally I think is the main impact... Without the cultural impac there wouldn't be a economical impact
I'm from Spain and the king talked about BTS with Moon Jaein, the expresident, one time they met. There are rumors about the princesses of Spain being ARMY. BTS is getting world leaders to know about korean culture
i feel sad over the idea of focusing on impact in general, instead of the inherent value they have as human beings. On that same though, if they were not so famous, would they be less worth as people and therefore less deserving of fair treatment by their government?
And on an extra sad note, the economic benefits that BTS brings are not actually the money they make, but something called soft power. Soft power works by exporting the culture, driving up the interest on the culture, and said interest eventually fueling the local economy. So their cultural impact is also a measurement of their economical value.
moral of the story: don't let capitalism define your worth
of course you would never miss an opportunity to talk about hobi's verse in ma city 👏
you know me so well
I didn’t know this about Hobi’s verse, so thank you I learn’t something new today
wdym?
I love that, also in killer RMs FU I don't care, you can't control my shit it's giving booi 👀
@@gongcha3876 8:30-10. And they probably mean that Elliott is politically aware and a leftist so I imagine he'd love the fact that BTS has such strong in-your-face lyrics and they'd subtly stick it up to the shitty politicians, past and present.
"Hey, so you'll do the free concert in Busan for us?"
BTS: Sure thing, we actually have a song that mentions how great Busan is.
"Oh really, definitely include that song in the set list then"
J-Hope: that leftist rebellion in my hometown was based!!
Jokes aside I've been an army since 2016 and back then talks of military service were much different than they are now because bts super big globally as they are now so exemption was an ocean away from the table. Like, no lie the attitude around it was, "don't you dare even look at military exemption you are going to make so many conservative Koreans mad at BTS"
I've honestly found it a bit jarring at how newer armys have been emboldened into talking about exemption because of how big they've gotten (and with the gov teasing the possibility). But I always had a problem with how these talks often were missing BTS' imput on what they wanted, granted, they couldn't have explicitly asked for exemption because that would have definitely unleashed the fury of conservative Koreans. Though when Yoongi writes about how they intend to serve in the military in one of the songs from D-2 I feel like the convo is over. . .
At the end of the day I respect BTS' decision, I especially respect the hell out of the way they went about announcing that they will begin serving lol
Glad to see you make this vid Elliot. Most non-fan reactions have been mostly jokes about BTS dancing in the trenches and while those jokes don't offend me I'm hope this vid shows ppl that BTS are actually quite politically ballsy
The stuff about politicians and the general public potentially getting mad BTS was also a common argument to leave the exemption talk alone if you're not Korean (and let BTS take the decision) well into 2020 I believe, but with the talk intensifying this year while many newer fans (who have been coming in increasingly larger waves from 2017 to now) lack the context of how long these talks have gone on and where did they come from..... yeah
about the jokes, tbf I read one about like a tactical strike force entirely made of BTS, which, while not something I'd want to actually happen, is a pretty funny image lol
@@Danae_O
Ya when I first joined the fandom a lot of older fans would talk about specific instances where fans trying to get their fave exempted ended in that celebrity getting a lot of backlash, so fans would often tell each other to just accept military service as an inevitability (I'm so glad that the service will only take a little more than two years for OT7 bts to come back I was mentally preparing for the worse case scenario for separate service)
And ya a lot of the military jokes are hilarious ngl 💀
I think a lot of new and older fans spoke up about the military service exemption specifically because of the Government teasing it.
Its not probably.
It's been 4 years of this talk from the government.
You would expect some sort of action or statement of seriousness.
But instead they were playing around. That really pissed people off.
That's why you saw a lot of fans be like "bts deserved exemption" even though they knew bts themselves talked about going to the military. Trust me, armys know what bts want.
And as a matter of fact I know that many fans actually were louder than usual about the exemption so that it can get on the media. So many tweets getting blown up. Trending several days.....
That gives media attention.
Once it's on the media, nobody can deny bts's impact on the world right now.
So talking about the exemption loudly was more like a middle finger to the government who played with bts more than actually wanting the exemption itself.
I mean you saw it right? the article headline "politicians embarrassed after bts military service announcement". Yep.
Cus what do governments fear the most?
Media. That's right.
@@ralphy383
Oh ya I get why it has been especially more loud since bts have decided to go
I was more talking about the contrast between older and newer fans in the sense that a lot of new fans are also very new to kpop in general and didn't know that exemption talk was "taboo" and also the general division between "well of course bts could never get exemption" to "wait they might be able to. . ." that's become prevalent in recent years
@@Nublet864 oh yes I get you.
I was part of the... bts would never get exemption teams.
I'm a 2018 fan (a sort of middle point )and I had the words military and exemption muted forever on twitter.
Our policy was to keep quiet about it and move in silence before.
And I also saw the newer fans being a lot more unaware of how it was before, speaking out on things they barely understood.
there was also lot of agitation due to entertainment companies ganging up together and using bts's name to get exemption for kpop in general.
I think it played a part at why the talks got more divisive and frequent .
“sometimes we need to choose our values over our value” THIS IS SUCH A BANGER LINE!!!
Sounds good but makes no sense tbh. It’s just the same thing repeated. And they are the same. Your values is what makes you valuable. This like makes no sense. Who you are your morals and all that contribute to your value. Status doesn’t mean anything to them. It was never a question no matter how big they got. They were gonna serve regardless. It was never a choice. It was just known. Plus even if it was a choice. Bts doesn’t have a say so. They have no choice.
i know a lot of the discussion centers around the capital the boys generate but over the past year(s) i've been thinking about how bts have been transformed and pushed by politicians to essentially become a political tool and a mascot of sk in international terms, and as a fan while it's gratifying to see that they've 'made it' it's also frustrating how their personhood is neglected in favour of 'bts the korean brand'. they're used as bargaining chips both domestically and internationally and bts' own agency is so often overlooked. i'm glad the boys are reclaiming their agency but the fact remains that they've been politically exploited for so long
on a side note, i love how the ads always nicely segment the videos into neat portions
This!! This is exactly what I’ve been thinking! BTS have definitely become more political in recent years- through no fault of their own. Hence they wouldn’t make songs critiquing the government anymore because of their affiliation with them. Aswell as the added pressure that’s been placed on them to represent the country and the government, their moves have been closely watched and analysed for a while now. Honestly I see the military service as a break from the governments clutches. Atleast for a short while.
@@jinphany. I brought this kind of thing up with some friends on Twitter (back when I was still on Twitter), and they kind of just dismissed it, but I've just kind of been unhappy with Hybe over the past couple years. It seems like they just want to capitalise on things that are trending, when in the beginning, BTS was never about that. That's why, even though I love them as a group, I'm happy they get time to explore themselves as people and express themselves differently. I'd take BTS voicing their own opinions and just being themselves, even if it would mean that I'd disagree with what they say from time to time, over the marketed brand of BTS. I see 7 amazing, complex people when I see BTS, and I want them to be those people, those individuals, publicly, if that's what they want.
I hope it all goes well in the military, and that they can enjoy feeling like they made the right decision. When it comes down to it, they're just Korean men that deserve to take part in their culture and obligations without drama.
Its incredibly ironic considering BTS's anti government,( or the government's decisions ) their music has historically been.
This is one of those I wish I thought of that first comments lol. You brought out some incredible points that I would not have ever thought of otherwise. And it’s so perfectly said too.
@@GivebackthescarfBTS are rich boys? They were never treated like a human or should I say not even other group even when they were just a rookie bcz they are out of big3, bfr,
The reason I always support bts in their private as well as professional life is because I know they always think things through and don't do things on a whim (even if it may seem like it).
Also one thing I think ARMY is REALLY good at is prioritising bts before our own needs. Their mental health and well being is so important to us we always feel apologetic at the slightest signs of discomfort from them.
Take the Weeknd cancelled concert as an example where the crowd booed him and went off on Twitter cussing him out. ARMY would never do that. Whenever bts cancelled or postponed things, funnily enough ARMY would get sick worrying about how the boys must feel.
I know we often bring up their monetary value in discussions but that's not because it's important to us, we couldn't care less. It's because it's often the quickest way to shut up haters since it's hard to argue against numbers.
Was waiting on your opinion on this tbh, I always find your takes about BTS having a bit more nuance than other commentators, even some ARMYs don't quite grasp that BTS are way more than the commodity that they are perceived to be, regardless if the context of consumption is out of appreciation. I personally was a bit more bothered by the fact that BTS was used as scapegoats for the South Korean gov't's performativeness of considering exemptions (possibly opening doors for other circumstances for this to be granted) but ultimately, BTS are still to be commodified if they were exempted. They're just going to be used for their soft power and the possible economic and cultural prestige they can lend towards the World Expo bid. And BTS is still commodified by how the media and fans are treating them, based on how much of their economic power and creative output is gonna be on hold if they enlist. BTS can never win in this situation and i guess for me, when they announced they were going to enlist I actually just let out a sigh of relief. Bc that was their decision and maybe they chose the best thing for them to walk away from commodification for a few years until they are far removed from that burnout and ready to make creative output.
I will say though, that convo surrounding the disagreenent with compulsary enlistment is missing the very real dangers of harrassment that people, especially public figures, endure during their enlistment. I always think about Taemin and the damage he's had to psychologically and emotionally endure, and he's still not done. There's not enough talk about the damage imperialism, and the toxic patriarchal ideals it draws its values from, deals to people's lives, even in times there's no war.
Overall, I resonate with you about how discourse about this issue is dehumanizing for BTS, from all sides of the discourse. BTS deserves better, not in terms of exemption and not just by the SK gov't, but from everyone who fail to realize that BTS are actual human beings who deserve to not be treated as a product, but that they deserve to just BE and that is enough.
thank you for your comment, i think i agree with most of it if not all
Yes! How many entertainers are harassed during their enlistment? That is something that is swept under the rug. I hope that the guys are treated respectfully. Unlike what many of the other K-pop idols had to endure. 😢
oh god, is taemin okay? i haven't kept up with the kpop world too much other than being superficially engaged... hearing that the military is/was a potentially traumatizing experience for him breaks my heart.
and i agree with everything you said. its what has been on my mind ever since that first meeting about exemption for idols was held with all the other companies and bts's name was brought up when they had nothing to do with it. they have been taken advantage of and commoditised by every single party in this debate about exemption, and not one has distinctly brought up their cultural contribution and merit. its frustrating and sad.
I was also relieved when they announced their enlistment. Because even though it’s fucked up that they have to at all (and that anyone HAS to go in the first place), at least they’re not being pushed around by the “will they won’t they” whims of their government. I’m glad it’s not being held over their heads anymore.
Military is already traumatizing enough, and then you add this massive target to your back.
For me it's not about how much money they've made for Korea, but rather what they have done for Korea's reputation in the world. Also how much they have done and continue to do for the promotion of Korean culture and language. I'm not even Korean myself and I feel so proud. It just kinda hurts to see that their own government doesn't appreciate them but tries to exploit them like this.
Exactly, they’re a big part of why I got interested in the language and culture
Your video made me rethink my feelings towards this issue, it opened my "fangirling" filled brain to a more responsible and mature way of looking at the situation. Now it makes more sense to me why the boys kept on telling ARMY to trust them, because they decided on this, and they knew fans will be mad or disappointed.
It also made me realize that I and maybe majority of the fanbase were never even aware that we were kind of being selfish for not wanting them to enlist just because we didn't want the contents to stop for quite a long time for our own selfish reasons, we didn't even consider the fact that they might really want to enlist so that they could have somewhat normal lives and be treated as normal Korean guys away from all the lime light, controversies and watchful eyes of the industry even if it's just inside the military base. I'm sure it's hard to admit, but I myself just realized it now and I feel bad.
You are 100% correct in saying that although they are rich and famous, that does not guarantee that they are living happily to their heart's content. Because of their passion towards their craft and fanbase, it is all the more reason for them to grind every day without rest so that they provide us with high quality music, which will then lead to burn out. So having said this, their enlistment will in a way let them experience a new environment away from the tiring life of being in the Music Industry. Like a breath of fresh air. Going back to RM's statement during the FESTA dinner, it all connects now since he was talking about being tired and not having the freedom to do a lot of things due to the watchful eyes of the public. It may also pertain to how the SK govt. has been using them for the past 2 years.
BTS' decision to enlist was for their own good & benefit, and as RM said....we should just trust them :)
💯
i disagree respectfully, there has been enough documentation of how enlisted celebrities face harassment or so much invasion of privacy, one famous kpop idol was filmed showering? i think something in that sense. so it is definitely not a vacation of fun or free time.
they are serving because there was no choice left and they realised the government was going to keep indulging in this mess of who deserves it or not, with other entertainment companies pushing the discourse to get exemption for their own idols.
but this does not change the fact that they are critical of the mandatory enlistment, Yoongi and Namjoon have spoken on how it steals youth away and it being unfair. We can trust in them to make their decisions without trying to glorify forced military service, especially when corruptions leads to many being exempted from this. Ironically, if we glorify this service as a free time to comfort our heart, we are still being selfish.
Exemption was a proverbial Swords of Damocles on their necks and likely would have been for the rest of their career. They could have been in a situation where they were beholden to the whims of certain executives and politicians and would have had a lot less freedom of choice. Increased scrutiny from the public because now they were on a pedestal and one slight mistake would have earned them everyone's ire. I don't think military conscription is ever a light topic that can be seen as a "vacation" of sorts but by doing what they were supposed to do they freed themselves from hypothetical shackles. It was a damned if they did, damned if they didn't situation and I think they were aware of it hence the decision.
Exactly this! Making that announcement was a power move; maybe not in terms of actual bargaining power or getting what they ultimately want out of life, but certainly in terms of getting to decide their own path and not being used as pawns by a right-wing government that views them as nothing more than a commodity.
@@emilycrewe3794 there were discussions of them serving by performing as a part of the government. That is so anti what BTS was, and still is. Their artistry would be on a chain. By the government. That would've been horribly ironic to particularly I think of 2015 BTS, but BTS as a whole and what I interpret to be their beliefs based on their music.
‘’Sometimes we need to choose our values over our values”, a very profound statement, I’m very impressed with you Elliot Sang and BTS.
since everyone else is sharing, i'll put in my two (or ten, lol) cents in the penny pile
i don't like to lord the fact that i've been a fan since bts's debut over other fans or in general, but the more that i confront & extrapolate my experiences both participating in the fandom and watching it the more striking (if predictable) i find the differences between now & the earlier years.
there appears to be a turning point in 2017 with the first exponential global boom. celebrities, esp k-pop idols, are always more of an idea and less of a person, but this was the first time that bts had encountered such mass dehumanization. before wings, and a bit after, while they were still v much celebrities & so a mythology, there was a chill, down-to-earth character to the overall fandom that existed in spite of being sizable. the value was on enjoying ourselves & bts enjoying themselves. but with the advent of more ppl, pressure, and the tour + love yourself series, that...dramatically shifted. even just between pre and post ly: her's release.
fundamentally, it's just what happens when fandoms swell past a certain capacity. the boys have been very effectively stereotyped, their personalities removed from their images in favor of popular ideas or the literal images provided by the institution. the animal emojis, for example. none of the boys chose them & all of them were popularized bc of touch-and-go fandom/brand associations & not much else--unlike before (most obvious being yoongi & namjoon, yoongi going from almost always a reptile to a cat bc...catboys lmao. and joon was literally just assigned his bt21 character). even (& inevitably) the love yourself concept itself became a commodity/brand, turning into this sanitized ideal of positivity and self-love that's now integral to bts's marketing & fan recruitment. not even mentioning the simultaneous expansion of bighit as a cooperation.
this to illustrate that what bts, the people, actually enact & try to impart is sifted through a much more impenetrable filter of narratives than before, that either suit their brand or their fandom's ideas. which are inextricably linked to begin with, but you could probably go so far to say that army is bts's brand now--which is the issue. bts is defined by other people & the abstract rather than the actual members at this point in their careers, which is...pretty damn different from not only what they were in the beginning but also what they stood for AND what the fandom was interested in.
to a degree this is just a necessary fixture of fame--you by definition grow beyond yourself, and it's its own entity. but bts were a special kind of unprepared for the way capitalism would grasp the moving appendages of their celebrity, due to like...all of their particular circumstances, including just how much fame there is. makes the commodification & politicization (as a tool) almost seamless. esp keeping them working all the time, so it's harder for them to tune into their diluting corporeal presence. nevermind that they've mentioned how frightening it is to look the basic terms of their success in the face.
so. i'm not surprised the noise abt enlistment centers what bts is worth (economically or personally to fans) instead of what the boys actually want, if aggravated by so many armys missing the point. excavating bts as an institution from capital is impossible, and was never avoidable, but the members still believe in their own personal agency. which is likely why they're putting a stopgap in the momentum now (& honed in on fans to shut out external influences the last few years). burnout is the clear motivation, but my hope is that reclaiming some of the autonomy they've lost to their success is the outcome.
my only concern is for their personal wellbeing going into such a notoriously fraught environment for idols (and in general). i think jungkook & yoongi will be fine, but the rest are probably going to struggle. esp jimin, taehyung, and seokjin. the least they should have is the freedom to do it on their own terms. it's fucked that they had to take it back but i'm proud they have. bts are best when they're ballsy
edit: reading this tangent again to respond to ppl's replies makes me want to point out that while i stand by everything i said atm, there is a pervasive narrative in the fandom that bts were essentially independent from the capitalism of the k-pop system in their earlier years, which i implicitly gave legitimacy here. i want to append: that's just part of the mythology.
bts were independent of a lot of the k-pop system's abuse, not its capitalist model and grooming. they were not spared from harmful practices standardized by the foundations of the industry. being forced to live together isolated from their support systems as kids reliant on their label to survive, their worth being defined by how well they performed said label's criteria under threat of termination, having their bodies and physical appearances monitored and policed, ect. the system groomed them to be products for commodification by conceiving of bts within the industry, even if done with honorable intent. hence that separating bts as an entity from capital is impossible and was never avoidable. it was the plan. no ethical consumption under capitalism and all that.
short of upending the entire world's economic structures & philosophies, bts aren't undoing their commodification lmfao. but the also unavoidable struggle for personal agency within fame is separate from capitalism, if deeply intersecting in most cases, which is what i was mulling over & hope bts overcome.
Thank you for sharing your thoughtful perspective as such a longtime fan, I'm vibing with a lot of it 💜
the most important comment here
@rhymelon @Vulvasaur thank you, it's actually relieving to hear that other fans like the insight, since initiating any dialogue abt it usually ends in ostracization or outright excommunication in the fandom (largely due to what i described abt fan narratives). tho i did make an addendum after re-reading it not at 3am lol
@@eli-sg9gp can I ask for clarification of what you mean about initiating dialogue about "it" in fandom? Like their commodification and wanting to pull back their autonomy from narratives imposed on them by fandom and the businesses and govt involved??
Tossing random thoughts below as I try to articulate badly what's floating in my brain thinking about your post and additions:
I remember when getting into the fandom in summer 2021, slowly osmosing more of Bangtan's history, that I had seen people mention about the 2018 contract renewals that they were considering not continuing because they were terrified of the exponential increase in fame, and I always wondered how accurate that was since I had no idea how to get at sourcing. It felt true, anyhow. That they might be worried about who they were and what they wanted to express with their music would get subsumed in the drive for economic success. (Also minor note, that's a bit why I think of them as Bangtan, vs the 'sanitized/simplified for Western/International audiences' as BTS)
Idk, I'm with you in hoping that they can do what they can to claw back their autonomy, and live as best they can and get out from under the massive amount of pressure and scrutiny to whatever extent possible. The flattening effect of fame that reduces celebrities to one-dimensional, marketable characters rather than fully human is rough, especially where that intersects with different identities like perceived race, gender, sexuality, disability, religion, etc. I think that's why Seokjin's recent interview/drinking adventure with Youngji where he talked about being worried about showing any negative aspects of himself to fans really got to me. I mean, it sucks but it's also self preservation, because netizens and the general public and media are all too ready in this day and age to attack like piranhas and tear people apart for the slightest reason :(((
I have no idea where I'm going with all of this but thank you for your thinky thoughts that have triggered my own thinky thoughts 💜
@@eli-sg9gp also if you want to continue chatting more about this kind of thing elsewhere since I like your thinky thoughts, i have no idea where most of the fandom hangs out since I don't twitter, but I usually hang out on Tumblr (rhythmelia) and discord (rhythmia) ^_^ still pondering reviving my dreamwidth account aha
Thoroughly insightful, Elliot. The dehumanization part reminded me of how Seokjin mentioned in a recent interview that as a result of training since the age of 19, he hardly has any close friends. It made me sadder than the enlistment news. I treasure BTS with my life but them churning out stuff constantly during the pandemic and later despite of announcing a hiatus was more concerning to me than being exciting. I couldn't watch this year's Festa dinner after seeing clips of Joon breaking down over their decision to take a break and feeling that they are going to lose their fans. When you can't take a break without feeling guilty about it, there is something terribly and fundamentally wrong. As you said, BTS deserves better.
BTS deserves better 👍
Well, that's a different approach which I didn't think through.
But my (personal) point of argument is when you are being forced to do more for your country, than you are naturally supposed to do as normal citizen, then what that says about your govt. The govt can not let BTS go, because the money BTS is bringing, but do not have courage to say that publicly. What a coward. If you are using them, then say it.
Only good thing that came out of this is BTS took the decision themselves, it was supposed to be their decision when they enlist and they made the choice, irrespective of what govt wanted.
I thought the same thing. Remember when the guys talked about being uninspired and how they didn't even know themselves anymore. Early on having the monotonous schedule. I'm really excited for them to break free and do something different. To grow. And the fact they chose this and maybe a middle finger to whomever and not trying to use their influence (which they never did) to get out of it or push their own value ($) I'm gonna be selfishly sad because I'm a human of my time but I'm mostly so fucking stoked! I really am excited for them to have these experiences
Agree, the boys have been doing this for too long without a break ! Excited for them to be by themselves for a while, them to experience life, date, get married, have kids - I feel like 10 years to us and ARMY is more than enough and we care for them too
They never said that, antis said that to claim BTS weren't themselves anyomore. Y'all RUclips "armys" are the biggest antis istg but I guess you got the likes you wanted.
@@karlaalexa211 for one example in one of Hobis logs early on in their debut he specifically mentioned that and for another RM talked about that in a Bangtan interview being shuffled from shooting to practice, performances and around again when did he have time to be inspired. So maybe you just missed those. I'm an all around ARMY and I left a comment because I really liked the video. 🫡💜
Loved this very much, Elliot. And this? "Choosing values over value..." truly resonated with me. Thank you for this piece.
thank you as always portia!
💯 agree!!
I was reading the comments on here and I really appreciate how articulate insightful and we'll read the armys are on here. This is the real army, far away from the chaos of Twitter or the immaturity of ig.
I loved the video and loved reading every insightful comment.
I am a big BTS stan, but I have been out of touch with news related to them in recent days. So I knew only surface level stuff about the military service thing. I came across a lot of stuff where BTS said "fu*k you* to the government in one of their performance (in a subtle way, of course". After watching your video and realising that they did the Busan concert for free and the SK govt essentially took the credit for it, I am enraged. Absolutely enraged. I know BTS had wanted to do a free concert for fans, but this is like you said, exploitation. They probably had their career best performances at this concert. The new choreographies, new versions of old songs, it was all a visual treat. BTS never disappoints fans.
Never once have I heard BTS members say they weren't going to go to the military.
It was requested that Army trust the members by they themselves~ from that moment on I have given them exactly that. Simple. Easy. Respect.
Great video as always, Elliott! My five cents to add to it is that maybe for them like for any artist new experiences is what would invigorate their artistic drive and pull them out of this constant loop of producing new music and overworking themselves without rest. It's like a necessary pause to allow for a personal growth apart from each other to bring something new to the table when they reunite. I love what RM said about longevity of the group, that they need to rework the way they will operate in the future to ensure they go on for the next 20 years and more. They will start having families and BTS will inevitably morph into a different type of group. And we are here for the ride!
OMG! Yes, I love this take on the situation.
oh this one’s about to be a banger
Adding my 2 cents, I think one reason the ‘South Korea govt dumb for making themselves lose money’ narrative is so rampant is because a lot of coverage doesn't emphasize that it was BTS’ own decision to enlist, so it makes the focus on the government’s exemption standards rather than BTS’ wishes. The mandatory aspect also doesn't really help because people easily assume that it being mandatory is more significant in the decision than what BTS actually want.
Most of the ARMYS I saw were proud of BTS for making a decision themselves and at first refrained from speaking abt the govt. It was only when the news blew up internationally & non-fans started giving their takes that I saw ARMYs joining/supporting criticizing the govt because (1) non-fans were acknowledging BTS' impact, which we love, and (2) the govt has Not Been Nice and it's nice to see the entire world know that for once. (Keep in mind all this is just based on the ARMYs I follow! so)
Additionally, I don’t think non-fans are aware that the govt had previously talked abt alternative service in which BTS would continue idol activities but all the profits would go to the govt. So they weren’t exactly 'dumb', they’re very much aware BTS brings a lot of money, and (this is a speculation) already had plans in place to exploit it for themselves rather than letting BTS be, but then BTS surprised them by announcing their enlistment.
I know a lot of people see this as a big fuck you to the govt, which it is, but I think it's important to remember it really could be more of a natural consequence of everything that happened rather than BTS’ main intention. Yes it’s a smart way to avoid owing anything to govt and to avoid further exploitation. But they’ve always said they were going to serve, they also said they wanted to slow down their pace so they can continue making music long-term, and there could be other reasons we don’t know about that have nothing to do with politics or money. And it’s really nice to be reminded of that rather than limiting the discussion to their role in society, 'values over value' like you said. All in all I think I can speak for a lot of fans when all I want is for BTS to be happy, I trust that they know what they want and I fully support their decisions.
Btw I love your videos, they’re all incredibly nuanced and insightful!
I was 14 in 2015 when I started listening to BTS. Now I’m 21. In 2025 I’ll be 24. And despite me probably not being too much into the fandom since 2020, I still have a very soft place for them.
I wish them the very best. For them to stay safe and healthy. And I know this ain’t the end. It’s the start of a new era.
Although I was super sad to hear the enlistment news, and really really really wanted them to get that exemption, the more I see some of their solo interviews, the more I realize that this decision may have been the best thing for them. They desperately need that time away from everything, especially the constant exploitation. As ARMY, I think we didn't realise how much the relationship we have with BTS may have stunted their personal growth, because we have that time to disconnect from them and engage in other things, whereas they really didn't as much since they were constantly working.
With all that being said, I think there was still a different form arguing for their exemption that doesn't necessarily come down to their monetary value, at least not explicitly. The representation that BTS has provided for Asians, and more specifically South Koreans, all over the world is immeasurable. Coming from South Africa, I've seen first-hand how they've transformed the social landscape for South Koreans in my country, and not just monetarily but in terms of their human rights and discrimination against them as well, and I'm sure this is what has occurred globally as well. The increase in the amount of people engaging in South Korean culture at any level is in large part due to them, so from a soft power perspective they deserved the exemption as well.
I wish them good luck on their enlistment, and I hope they get to hate and enjoy as much as any other South Korean man or atleast celebrity that has previously enlisted.
@Kate Moore korea has done many polls and majority ruled that they are okay with exemption lmao
@Kate Moore what am i supposed to do with this information? majority rule, still rules
Yeah, I think from an international fan's perspective the main purpose of them doing the regular military service is to lift pressure off their shoulders (Every hyped up artist needs a longer break for their private life & to lower expectations). It doesn't help the military (in case of war escalation) though. They are more valuable as tax payers & marketing figures than they could ever be as soldiers (modern weapons are expensive af). Like, for example the guys from Kalush Orchestra were allowed to leave Ukraine for a couple of days to compete in the Eurovision Song Contest (some of them were in active duty, but at least the rapper hasn't done military service/training). After winning, they sold their trophy to fund the war - at least the 900k they received could be almost enough for one of those high-tech rockets...
I never thought about the fact that Army always have the option to step away but BTS don't. Thank you for giving me that perspective. Over the years I have not had the constant kpop/BTS content consumption I used to have when I was younger and have appreciated having the time to do and enjoy other things. To think about the fact that BTS have not had that opportunity and have been constantly enveloped in that world making, creating and working endlessly makes me soooo glad that they are taking a break and working on solo projects/enlisting. I was already supportive of the decision before but now I feel like it's a HUGE WELL DESERVED time away and I hope it serves them well.
@Kate Moore if men have to be forced to serve women should to. everyone or no one. bc if 7 men not knowing basic military somehow makes as much of a impactic as you think it is in times of war why aren't women forced to do the same? all hands on deck right? don't they all live in the same country?
This is it. This says it all. Love your content. I'm feeling so enlightened. I supported BTS military enlistment wholeheartedly when they announce it so and I was happy for them cause those people who drag them for the so called potential exemption were now devoid of that reason. But now I understand how BTS decision to enlist is more than any online debate topic.
Thank You.
This was a great video. Their bombshell announcement in June really affected me as a fan, but also as someone who is the same age as several of the members, and who was also experiencing burn out at the time. In a strange way I really empathised with everything they said to us. Although it hurts knowing that we won't get to see them as much for the next couple of years, I think at the end of the day, they've given us so much as fans, and I just want them to be happy and healthy in the end. It hurts to see people you love expressing the pain or turmoil they're going through. Regarding enlistment, I'm extremely against the idea of compulsory military service, but glad that in the end the members took the decision on for themselves.
I applaud BTS for their decision to enlist. They never asked for exemption but have reiterated that they will enlist when called upon. I believe BTS are men of value because of their person, not their economic value. I trust their decisions and will always pray for their safety and happiness. BTS ARMY forever💜
Very interesting discussion, thank you for your perspective! I also appreciated the explanation of details about Hobi's verse of "Ma City" - never heard about that, and it's always great to find another nugget of info about their lyrics.
SK has been dragging out BTS' enlistment news for so longgg and the boys took it into their own hands to enlist, I love them
a very nuanced take, i agree with most of the points that you make though i can't help but find issue with the prospect of seeing compulsory military enlistment as "rest"
I really believe they deserved an exemption even if they didn't take it. Not just for the economy or anything but because of the awareness they have brought to Korea. I don't think I'd be even taking Korean if I never discovered them. They truly deserved better. I think it's really unfair that people are being forced to do any kind of military service.
Honestly even if BTS were given an exemption, it probably wouldn’t have been within the best interests of the South Korean public. Especially the males who’d see it as unfair that BTS didn’t have to serve. Last thing we need now is for BTS’s own general public to turn on them. And tbh even though in the military they won’t be resting, atleast they’ll get a chance to do something different than what they’ve been doing the last few years. Idk, I’m still extremely upset that they’ll be gone, but I think then starting the release of solo projects this year was good as it had kind of prepared/eased me into the idea of them not doing group activities for a while. Smart move from them honestly because I don’t know how we would’ve all reacted if they’d just upped and left without preparing us. And besides I think BTS knew they were going to enlist just from hints at the PTD tours, and they chose to take the boss route by not being played around the the SK government any longer.
As always, great video. I will admit, some of those magic man economy words flew over my head 😭 but I've definitely gotten the sense that a lot of these conversations over bts's enlistment has done nothing but feed in to capitalism and the commodification of art and performance. Anyway, i think they made the right choice to enlist and imma still be here in 2025 cause i still gotta catch up on all the run bts episodes and finish processing the fact that hyyh happened. 💀
I don't think it was a good choice, the Minister of Defense wants to exploit them while doing military service, that can affect badly their mental and physical health
@@splashpink4531 ok then what choice they were left with? exemption?
ok but on a lighter note, i love that you mentioned hyyh 💀💀
I think it was inevitable that they would go and I think they've been planning this for a very long time... like back to MOTS7 era, and it's also worth stressing that beyond the request for deferment until they turn 30, BTS never asked for exception. This was all something initiated by other entertainment companies and became a can for the government to kick down the road until the last possible moment. Just like always, the boys wont be pawns or toys and I think they recognized that being handed and exemption under the current administration would have been a disaster for them and their possible longevity as a group. That being said, as worried as I am about how they will be treated (I don't expect them to be coddled or pampered, but you hear some horrible things about how Idols have been treated), I do think this will be a valuable experience for them. They said during their Festa dinner that they've run out of things to say, that they needed to experience life and grow, and I think this would be a chance to see things from a new perspective while being among people close to their age. I know they're good, humble, people who will work hard and earn respect so I'll remain hopeful that they will not only be able to get this period behind them with little, to no, damage done to their bodys and spirits, but maybe they'll gain something from this too.
A more recent article from last year speaks about how BTS is worth 0,5% of SK's GDP, ca. 5 Billion USD.
But you are absolutly right that that is neither here nor there.
In my opinion it is just concentrating of which kind of value we can track down the easiest: money.
Far more interesting are BTS actually as political capital:
There was an Interview - that I have unfortunately trouble tracking down - that I think was between the speaker of fromer SK president Moon and that political commentator Kim Eo-juns (sp? do I have the right name at all?). It was because the press refused to give the than president a chance for clout so the barely reported on BTS in New York at the SDG moment of the UNGA in 2021.
He spoke about how it was pretty much the first time that politicians came to them and asked the SK politicians for time - because of BTS. Politicians lingered - despite usually having no time - to watch BTS record their performance and they asked after BTS.
The SK delegation wanted to give SK art away. The UN has a waiting list with no influence from the giver where the art in the end lands. So they asked the Met if they were interested. They were not. The speaker claimed he said how sad he was about that as they had planed to send over the wife of the SK president and BTS with the art. They would ask other museums. The speaker of the Met he was talking to immidetly changed the response and they made a special after hours event for the art giving. Namjoon even gave a speech.
Another example is that the wife of president Moon went to Saudi Arabia with a guest gift: a pop-up book of Baby Shark and special Collectors Edition dolls of BTS in Hanbok.
Or you could talk about how when they renewed their project of the Love Myself campain with the headquarter of UNICEF SK the leader exitedly told them that he heard - after Namjoon's UN speech in 2018 - another poltician say, that SK had archieved 2 great things in the last 60 years: on one hand democracy and economic growth and on the other the creation of BTS.
So... yeah... political capital and soft power - pretty much every news agency with foreign news spoke about SK sending BTS to the military - quiet a bit even postiv about BTS at least.
That is for me far more interesting and far harder to track.
Personally I don't want them in the military for other reasons: SK military has multiple problems: corruption, sexual harassment (even rape) of female personal and bullying. The last is pretty bad. I heard that it leads to ca. 2 suicides a day - which seem a lot. And we have seen what it can do to other famous Idols like G-Dragon and Taemin. The common theme seems to be that it is traumatizing and I don't want that for anyone.
I'm with you that taking their fate into their own hands was the right thing to do and it is their life so they should make their own decisions. That was and is very brave.
Thank you for this vid! 💜
💯
Exactly
I just hope they are properly protected in the military. I’ve heard bullying idols in the military is a common thing - Taemin (Jimin’s close friend and idol) was bullied in the military, which is a part of the reason, or at least contributed, to his declining mental health; they gave him an alternative way of serving because of it.
An excellent exposition on the topic, Elliot. I uncovered so much, and self-reflected that my own feelings of sadness about the news of enlistment were driven by the trappings of reducing the BTS members to mere commodities of this industry, as content for my own consumption. But they and their impact on me have been more than that!
RM's Rolling Stones interview with Pharrell came out after this video was released. But I think what he said there reinforced some of Elliot's points. RM talked about how disorienting it was for him and his members to have evolved from musicians to larger-than-life social figures who suddenly had the responsibility of being cultural ambassadors, delivering UN speeches, meeting presidents, etc. While I assume that they sort of accepted this newfound role as part and parcel of BTS' exploding influence, they might have felt burdened by it as it was not what they had intended for themselves nor helped them grow in musical artistry. I think they craved being musicans that performed for their fans and given the requisite gestation period to produce good music, rather than be pressured to come out with banger after banger while being pulled to do other activities.
After sorting out my thoughts, I'm glad that they are enlisting. If anything, this time away from their all-consuming career demands might take them back to their roots in being badass musicians and producers. Even if it means losing fans during their period of absence, that is fine as long as they regain control over the trajectory of their careers as a band and inspire a new direction forward.
I moved up in my career and was the most miserable I've ever been. My new position paid more, but was incredibly stressful and I constantly felt overworked. I had no time for the things I loved, and if I did get the time then I didn't have the energy. I spent a year trying to make it work, thinking I must be doing something wrong if my "improved" position was making my life worse, before I quit and moved back down the ladder a bit. At first I was incredibly nervous about doing this because I thought it would be percieved as failure, when it turned out to be the best thing I could have done for myself. My health and happiness dramatically improved when I rejected the idea that the value of my life was how much I could produce.
Always like your perspective. What you said is not only informative but also refreshing, and I appreciate the humane side while enjoying your logical analysis. Thank you.
tbh regardless of why they decided on it, this is the best possible decision for BTS. I truly think they need to take a proper break from the ladder of fame they have been climbing since 2017. As someone mentioned....it might be an unpopular opinion but I think they have lost their autonomy over their music since they launched into this worldwide fame. And given that how much hard they have worked on top of that, they do seem to be on verge on burnout. Regardless of what people might say about Hybe/Bighit, at the end of the day they are an entertainment company and they have been using BTS as their cash cow for quite some time. Overall it did seem that even their music identity wise BTS was becoming dehumanized since their music style changed a lot to generic American pop and more foreign producers jumped onboard with less and less participation from BTS overall. This is a much needed break for them and for ARMY. I truly hope that when they come back after their military service, they will show us a new face and be more free to express their artistic sides regardless of whether it is solo or group. I'll be cheering for them throughout this.
The president didn't serve because he had an eye problem. The minister didn't serve because he have a bone problem. I just don't understand how a famous pianist and a famous violinist got exempted and not BTS but I am glad BTS make this decision themselves rather than letting government dragging on etc I saw tons of fake articles saying it is BTS themselves that drag this. How can BTS drag this and not the government when BTS and suga in the song "what do you think" talk about serving whenever it is their time. Jin also spoke about it but it is the companies that use BTS name in order for future idol exemption. around 20 companies had the meeting. Bighit, the company for BTS did not even join the metting. And I rather BTS just serve like normal citizens than what the minister said BTS can perform still serving at military because imagine the strain of performing and at the same time in the military. That's overwork. My friend who served in the military said he slept like a dog everyday and is always out of energy it is not easy work. Just imagine BTS performing, earning nothing, because all money goes to the government and like maybe even flying jetlagged and next day go back to the military?
Thank you for this very articulate analysis of what BTS is suffering through and what they have to deal with. I rather they find personal happiness even if it means they cut these exploitative ties to corporations, government, politicians....etc. I rather attend less concerts, buy less merch if it means that our 7 Kings can live free lives. I do not want them to suffer depression like so many kpop & non kpop celebrities.
Yes!
Wow, thank you for this. I don't have anything to add. This blew my mind honestly, in a number of ways.
@Skullfucker I definitely did. I'm international ARMY, so I assumed there were pieces of this situation I was missing. This gave me so much food for thought and even more love for the guys.
oh my god i used to follow you on twitter when i was a bts fan. i loved your commentary and writing! im so glad your channel came up in my recommended :)
this is so heartwarming to hear
It is my pleasure to see you on RUclips. You understand it is more than ranking people with money. I will be back to see how things turn out.
Absolutely amazing video, and well articulated! First time I’ve come across any of your videos. I’ve always known they would serve, huge part of me figured they waited as long as they could cuz they actually did enjoy what they were doing. And then it became too much for them the last couple of years. Them announcing their enlistment made me so happy and proud. I’m proud of anyone who enlists, mandatory or not. I am just glad they decided for themselves, take control. They took control when they decided they would take a slight break from group activities (music) and work on themselves and do solo work.. they needed this. And it pains me that their impact always comes down to how much they make and bring into their country.. it’s a reality but that’s not all they are. That’s not why army support them the way we do. Again great video! I also didn’t know that exemption from the military doesn’t necessarily mean being fully exempt from doing something, I learn something new everyday!
BTS taking a decision to detach themselves from all this economy they're forced to contribute to rather than just being the artists that they initially aspired to be... and now that RM's "Right Place Wrong Person" is out to the world, this claim is proven right. I am glad they took that decision for their own beneit and detox and just to restore their general humanity rather than always being viewed as a super commodity.
“Sometimes we need to choose our values over our value!” Key insight, Elliot. Agree with you that that’s what the boys did by announcing their choice to enlist. They reappropriated their right to prioritise what was important to them: SERVING as all male citizens are expected to, and TIME to rethink and recreate themselves, not as the industry imagined they should, nor as the authorities wished, to exploit their economic power, but as serious artists with a changing vision of what they could DO and BE. They really never expected to be treated differently, and they have now asserted their preference not to be commodified. Your analysis is useful, and had to be voiced.
best video I've seen so far on the BTS military enlistment. thank you for the very differentiated view on this!
They did the right thing because it was the right thing to do. Simple. I applaud their integrity.
I didn't want them to go, but knew that they had to. An exemption would have damaged their image in SKorea no matter how it came about. Rock/hard place territory. But they made the decision and the gen public will remember that later. So BTS won.
what a great perspective, subscribed
This video changed my way of thinking. Bro you’re so smart, I’m watching your videos from now on. I love the way you can intelligently explain all these things in a way I can understand them. Thank you!!!
*Name one citizen in Korea that has done military, finished 6 years as Seoul Ambassadors and now Busan Expo Ambassadors. All of these are literal services to the country*
I have been following the politics to every assembly. From the conflict between the members of the ministry of culture sports and tourism. The very recent session they first said each case of a possible exemption should be addressed individually and calculated depending upon its scenario and contribution. A while later as a reply to a question by the ministers who are for it, the same person said we can't take the group particularly and discuss. Then when asked about what are the criterias for exemption, for the nth time he said he is 'looking into it'. That's the statement the government has been saying for the past 3 years now. In short the laws in itself are flimsy and the politicians are the one that gain from the politics around military. The law is not criteria based but just depends upon ideas that even politicians can't decide on.
And the irony? BTS never asked for a full on ministry session on their exemption. After BTS got the order of Cultural Merit, the government took it up themselves, and the statement when this became a government talk was exemption isn't a favour to the group, but a favour to the rising soft power of South Korea. Its clear its only misusing BTS as pawns. At what point in this world did ambassadors have to pay for tourism promotion? Well according according SK gov BTS must not only exert themselves for for free concert but pay for the infrastructure too.
Moreover what about chaebol's sons or the history of politicians who buy out of the military?
Nonethless! Since I have been researching for quite a while, well done! You have explained it perfectly touching upon all sides of the story and making it processable for those who are unaware.
Well said!! We are not here just for BTS's looks or dance skills. They do matter, but thats a tiny part. We love BTS for who they are and how they conduct themselves and also that they are so humble even in constrained situations. Not only will they have longevity as a group, they will inspire many many more in the years to come. No one can target them anymore once this military service is done. But ARMY will be more proud and support them 10 times more. But as far as SK is concerned..na ah..I am done. The hypocrisy and incompetance in decision making is palpable.
sad but also very relieved with the news. if im allowed to have my opinion on this topic, i think that while it might seem understandably unfair in the face of the existing law that bts weren't exempted, the law that allows the exemptions in various fields is in general unfair to regular civilians who also work hard. i think that perhaps the boys also recognise that and dont want to benefit from such privileges. after all, they've always introduced themselves as "just 7 boys from korea". getting entangled in a political drama is really not worth it. im proud and assured that they make smart decisions and keep their values.
also, if they got exempted, it wouldnt be "here, you're free to go and do whatever you want now". no 💀the gov wouldnt let them be. i just hope that they fulfill their duty well, healthily, and when they come back they don't feel like they owe people shit
I didn't watch the video yet but I have a question. In the Big Hit statement said that Jin will follow the "government procedures" but what procedures?? Have they (the government) agreed with his enlistment or will they give another option like exemption/alternative service ??? The govt didn't give a clear response yet
given that theyll each serve the year and a half or so time period im sure theres no exemption coming. i assumed by government procedures they mean he’ll do as the standard procedure requires
From what've heard, I think you register the enlistment and the government take from 2 wks to 2 months to send you the actual time/place notice of when/where to serve.
This is video really changed my perspective, before my only thoughts about the enlistment were "i hope they'll be okay" and "i will miss them". Truly, everything is political, and shame on me for forgetting about that.
Elliot your videos are always well done and very researched, I love how you use your words and speak about topics like this that could make people see the situation a bit differently. To talk about the Busan concert specifically and the topic of the SK government using them as piggy banks, even I as an Army was a bit a alarmed and concerned by them hosting a whole concert on their behalf FOR free. And when BTS do concerts.. they serve too hard, and the boys always try to reassure us and tell us that they find joy in preforming and seeing Army is rewarding enough.. but then again, we don’t know them personally and there’s more to it when right after that concert the news of them being enlisted to the military was just released. It makes me think that they used that last chance to be together again to say some form of “goodbye” even though their beginning is yet to come. Idk.. but that’s just my thoughts.
Woa this was definitely the best and most interesting bts commentary video I’ve seen so far! I really hope that this decision will give them peace in some way.
I’m not a bts fan (not that I dislike them just don’t consume a lot of K-pop) but I enjoyed this video. I appreciate your Anti-capitalist analysis of the situation.
That's cool, but I know a lot of BTS fans who don't even like kpop in general. BTS is bigger than the kpop label.
Very precise presentation by an obviously bright young person…excellent… my point is simply this .. the Exemptions are based on the positive contribution to promoting a positive image of South Korea and its culture around the world….the South Korean soccer team who won a gold medal in the Asian games …. a regional distinction… compared to a group that has given speeches at the United Nations .. spurred on people learning the Korean language and singing along in Korean at the concerts…. and breaking all types of records around the globe …. there is no comparison… I mean it’s comical…I follow soccer… not a fanatic by any means … and I hadn’t heard about this gold medal until long after the fact….if they want to avoid controversy…. No exemptions for anyone beyond physical capabilities
The Government cannot force them to continue work as BTS while in the military and take their earnings anyway, because the members are under a legal contract with Hybe - there would be a vicious court battle over that if the government tried to force them into that scenario. The government has no legal right to take Hybe’s or BTS’ earnings - over and above what they’re entitled to as shareholders (the pension fund) and taxes - they can try but then that resembles the behaviour of a dictatorship/autocracy; in that case, they will have big problems with their citizens, likely causing an uprising, if they think their government is heading in that direction - they will not tolerate losing their democracy to a repressive society like N. Korea or Russia, for example.
Good to hear from you Elliot. Wondering where you’ve been.
been over here!
@@elliotsangestevez 🙌🏽😆‼️
Thank you king, spilled as always
I've been a fan of BTS for 4 years now and honestly, I have always thought about how valuable they are to the korean government, but at the same time it felt kinda wrong. I dehumanized them without realising it, but my subconscious knew that something was wrong with that view. Now that I'm getting more into economy (thanks to uni), I understand what you are talking about much better. So yeah, this was quite helpful
i completely agree with you but adding to the conversation, the military complex is itself also a dehumanizing organization as well built under the pretences of nationalism and while bts made the choice to not be under-humanized for their perceived capitalistic value, the major problem lies within the false idea of choice created by the capitalists and the government in which no matter which pill you choose to swallow, you are not an individual, nor a collective, but a tool to produce or to sacrifice.
i was sad at first to find out bts was going into the military but after giving it some thought, i was glad. they decided to control their own destinies, to stop being used and jerked around by others. since their beginnings and more recently, they have been stepped on by the music industry in general and the american media platforms. i am so proud of their strength and their ability to refuse and not be pawns. so many people in the world of entertainment loose themselves by ego, fame, money and bad advice. bts is showing how they are strong with their feet on the ground, their lyrics to 'bs&t, 'on, 'am i wrong and 'fake love comes to mind. the worlds media outlets are proclaiming them 'world superstars' and talking of their worth''. what will they be called when they return in 2025? ''icon'' and ''world superstars'' will not be good enough for them, we are going to need a new word category. they are taking a path that is not selfish or arrogant. bts is remaining humble and has taken the high ground while spitting in all of the faces of the 'haters. i really liked your commentary you are always very good and detailed.
You’ve done a great synthesis of the political issues surrounding the boys, awesome job, this vid has been really informative
amazing as always! thank you Elliot💜
I think the takeaway was that collective of other companies banded together to use BTS to gain exemption for their idols. BTS always stated that they wanted to serve and some of us (armys) just respected that.
what an informative video, thank you!
I loved your gold machine allegory (is it that? idk) absolutely brilliant.
Did they DESERVE it? Yes. Did they WANT it? No. The boys have said from DAY ONE that they will serve when the time comes. Having lived in Korea I will tell you, if they didn't serve, their reputation amongst Koreans would be terrible. It is seen as an honor and a duty all in one. Something every young Korean man must do in an effort to protect their country from the North, a nation they are still at war with. Even for regular citizens, any effort to dodge this responsibility is a massive red mark and huge shame, even if it is done for legitimate reasons (medical reasons, education, etc). For BTS to be given the exemption would have been terrible for them in the long run. The fact the music industry is already trying to capitalize on the fact they're leaving for a bit is telling, though.
Excellent excellent discussion! I'm part of army but definitely subbed your channel and will enjoy your other discussions yes I understand you are not a K-pop content Channel. Looking forward to your future and past content. Thank you for doing such a premium job with this. I'm in total agreement
Thank you for this, it is a wake up call for many toxic Army's around the world. Integrity was first thought when I heard about BTS revoking their deferments. After listening to your show, I àm feeling proud of their decision. I am.looking forward to 2025, as their true feelings of all this will come to light. I am 52yr old and I support all good humans, as they are scarce. Thank you!!
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This was such an interesting video and I really like your point of view as to why bts decided to enlist. It helps me feel more at ease with them going. And yes it's extremely dehumanizing to evaluate someone based on the profit their skilss make.
Incredibly well said and thoughtful. I’ve had a hard time articulating my thoughts and feelings on everything, but next time anyone asks i’ll send them this. I enjoyed listening to a lot of the bby gang catalog, and enjoy hearing a lot of your thoughts on this channel since then and was glad to see this video in my feed. I’ve been procrastinating watching this and i really wish i hadn’t now! Thanks for sharing.
i didn’t quite get a lot of the technical terms (i’m just slow lol) but you spoke so well and by the end of it i got the general message. this was very well done, thank you for making and uploading this :) can’t wait to watch more of your content xx
Personally, I think BTS should be offered exemption, regardless whether they'd have taken it or not. I think the financial worth argument came bc Korean ppl currently don't want to admit to or can't comprehend or no longer value the global attention and national prestige (smt that exemptions were based off of in the first place) they constantly bring to their country, culture, traditions, and history that I don't believe any other act out of Korea has done (at least, not to the scale BTS has).
That their presence strongly influenced an uptick of Korean language studies among foreigners throughout the years (to the point they received a gov award for it back in 2018), and how they sing abt their society, in both its current state and past (such as Hobi's verse of the Gwangju Uprising), greatly color the shape of the current Hallyu wave, from which Korea and its influence has become more well-known and actually recognized among the global population. And their impact is smt that I think is taken for granted bc of how, ironically, this current awareness of Korea is smt BTS has been at the forefront of for years now.
And ironically again, I think it would've been more likely that BTS could've been granted exemption 2019-2020 bc their influence was better felt back then in Korea, esp as more Korean products (for lack of a better word) were also starting to gain real consideration outside of just east Asia, than it is even now, where Korea seems to still get shocked now at how well received BTS is outside of the country (like the recent welcome and special treatment Jin got from Argentina to attend a Coldplay concert or the one Jungkook got from Doha for his still undisclosed side project makes headlines instead of being treated as par the norm for BTS).
And I think BTS does agree with you abt capitalism, tho I don't think going to the military would be seen as a time to rest/get away just based on how ppl currently talk abt mandatory service in Korea (including the troubling reveals abt mental health issues and privacy invasion from idols in service) and how even BTS once viewed it (or at least, how Yoongi did in _Adult Child;_ of course, he could've changed his mind, as you've reminded that as smt ppl do 😅).
Not to mention, seeing how the SK gov is still trying to push for BTS performance while serving (and that's not touching the 34mo "special service" talk an official brought up), I still worry for them and how much pressure they're under and whether there could be even greater pressure later, whether during or after service, esp as Hybe grows and the whole 2030 Expo situation.
The pressure and expectations their gov puts on them too is another reason I'd want them to be formally recognized by their gov (an offer for exemption would've been one way to do this), just so the position that they're being put into is acknowledged and better appreciated by the masses.
5:49 6:20 6:22 6:45 7:12. 7:27. 8:31 I'm pretty sure Gloss had produced a song called "518-062"
17:25. 18:12 20:40. 20:56. 22:12
I'm very impressed by your analysis, Elliot Sang .
Im SO excited to watch this, thanks for making this vid!!
thanks for supporting me grae!!
I agree with what you have said about how they should not be used as a gold making machine and not granted exemption on the basis of how valuable they can be and I totally agree and feel proud of their decision of stepping up for the service as a fan, but I also feel deep down, that they should be rewarded for how much they have done for the country economically and socially, this, without asking for anything in return can be an honour they can be bestowed upon. But then also, why is this even an honour?
They have grown up with the idea of serving their country by going to the military by going to the military like every other guy there does, and have been given diplomatic passports and many other awards, then why would this be THE honour and not those? Also, I feel very weird about people, like the one in the viral tiktok video, talk about this matter so confidently and keeping such a strong opinion on the matter, without even understanding the context correctly or their situation. She is speaking as if she is a voice for the band and she is so sympathetic towards them, and not being empathetic and trying to understand their point of view. I am fully supportive of BTS and their decisions on this matter, whatever it is, period! And the more I think about it, the more I come to realize how correct it is.
hey elliot! its super nice to see you branch off (it seems im super late to the party lol). loved your bbygang content. ^_^ currently binging your other videos, it's always insightful to watch your commentaries/thoughts on stuff.
ah thank u so much dora 🥹
I just wanna also point out that I don't like the classical music bashing I've been hearing all throughout the bts enlistment back and forth. they train for decades to hone their crafts and I have to honestly say as both an army AND a classical pianist and violinist that learning classical music has been one of the biggest undertakings of my life. so to play it to the standard that you can win these international competitions ABSOLUTELY deserves an exemption.
There are in fact lots of people out there who listen to and love classical music, myself included, and just because you may not listen to it doesn't mean its any less valuable. Not trying to attack anyone but the constant classical music bashing doesn't sit right with me.
Bts have done more for south korea and the k music industry, economy , tourism then those classic musicians who got exemption
@@utpaladas9243 I mentioned that I'm an army so if you're looking for someone to fight about whether or not bts have impacted SK you're looking in the wrong place, I know they have.
But you're comparing two very different styles of music, with different expectations, standards and practices. One is not less valuable than the other simply because it is not to your personal taste, and SK have produced some world class soloists and virtuosos who have impacted their field immensely, as well as impacting future generations through teaching in many cases.
You're comparing apples with oranges, but just because you prefer oranges it doesnt automatically mean that noone should eat apples anymore.
was waiting to hear from you
I think that it is also interesting that the idea of mandatory military service is not put into question by most people; it is fine to forcibly take people and make them serve a violent institution as long as the loss of capital is not too great. Would be cool if this made kpop fans recognize the injustice that is conscription more generally and try to advocate against it instead of only trying to see their faves exempted.
A lot of us are already against mandatory military service though but at the end of the day if we can't vote in Korea we can't really do anything to stop it
Though, from what I've seen, the whole debate over bts getting exempted has been widespread over the country and maybe that has inspired some Koreans to think about whether it not mandatory military service is even necessary for anyone to do
Unfortunately because most abled bodied Korean men have had to serve a lot of them run under the principle of "if I had to you have to" so mandatory service isn't going away anytime soon in Korea
Most people will not question it because in general service to country is seen as honorable duty and is a more acceptable viewpoint. But I have seen comments regarding this...not many but they are there.
Generally the fact that mandatory enlistment is a thing is one of the very first facts K-pop fans and BTS learn. A lot of fans have questioned or at least not considered it a good thing, but like Nublet above said, there's not much we can do about it. I'd add also that it's tricky grounds to discuss as a non-Korean person, given that it's too easy for some to speak for or over Korean people (or fall into weird narratives about South Korea as a whole), especially without knowing the context of the situation with North Korea and its history.
We had mandatory military service in Germany, too. It wasn't popular either, but when there are outer threats, imo it's better to be prepared.
I agree with a lot of what you said. I also wished you would have added commentary on the cultural pressure that would influence their decision.
This is a perspective from someone born and raised in a communist country where mandatory national service exists, where every men and most women in my family have gone through it and have also fought to liberate and defend the country.
As someone with a national identity and legacy, even while living in another country and being a woman, I volunteered to serve in whatever capacity the government and my community would let me when I came of age.
Going to school in Korea, I've seen teachers slap students that have negative things to say about the national service. Pupils would later bullying them. Same thing happens in university in a larger scale since you have returning students ready to gang up on anyone who remotely looks down on them.
The way people talk about exemptions isn't favourable here in Korea. I can't really imagine BTS, not serving. Considering they've always said they would and they know the social consequences and the everlasting stain that would be on their image (not to say what their family would go through as well), I always thought if they went ahead they would either be forced to accept the exemption, planned on living abroad or were going to stage a political protest of some kind.
I disagree with the notion that they were waiting for their future to be decided. They never for a second seemed like they had any desire not to serve or a reason to either. I can't see them adding even more stress to their lives. To me at least, they just went about it like every other Korean man I know, who waits till the last possible minute to enlist and would gladly accept an extension, but not an exemption.
This affects your future employment as well... so seriously, I don't think foreign fans understand just how annoyed the general public would be and how much of a target to the new government they would become...
Before watching this I didn't know that there is such a thing as a military exemption for Korean men who make significant cultural contribution. So while I have mixed feelings about the mandatory military service, I thought it only makes sense that BTS serve in the army. I do feel like they're cheated out of the exemption, because the only way the exemption can be fairly handed out is through some quantifiable measure, such as economic value. And I'm willing to bet that BTS generates more money than that soccer team. Because if you don't quantify cultural contrulibution, then it wouldn't seem fair for one person to been deemed culturally more worthy than another. At the same time the commodification of cultural or artistic value is sad in itself. I just hope idols get to do what they want as people. And not just with the military. They deserve a break too when they want to have it.
Eliot hope you are staying happy and healthy
I saw the name Elliot Sang and instantly clicked, cause I knew from twitter that your takes always have nuance even if sometimes I might not fully agree. Considering the focus of this analysis, I can't be upset that cultural value wasn't touched on because that wasn't the point of a Marxist analysis, obviously. But you did touch on a lot of reasons why the talk of BTS' economic value was uncomfortable at times. Unfortunately in a capitalist system, economic value is much easier to quantify than cultural value, but it's that conflict that started this fiasco to begin with. Exemption criteria is based off significant cultural contribution, winning awards according to certain criteria that improved Korea's international standing. On that basis alone, BTS should have been exempted but because they didn't fit into the bureaucratic technicalities and definitions, how do you "prove" their value? What award would've sufficed? Are ethically winning cultural awards (such as the Grammys) as elusive as the idea of "the American Dream", a myth that comes true in the rarest of circumstances? How do we measure cultural impact? We as fans know they've changed millions of lives globally, but how do you quantify that for bureaucracy? It sucks but I understand why people fell back onto talking about economic impact - because it's provable. But it becomes a gross precedent - do we exempt young CEOs? How much capital does an actor, inventor, investor, artist need to make to be considered? Do we expect art to prioritize money over artistry? This is why exemption criteria didn't include monetary value to begin with, even if I question awards as criteria to an extent. The conversation comes back to how capitalism forces us to dehumanize ourselves and others in order to get the least bit of "respect" we should be owed
Thank you for this perspective.
this was really good! I'm happy you showed up on my recommended list. This is so much more nuanced than most commentary out there. You really capture a good big picture here. Will have to check out more of your stuff! Thanks for doing this
ngl i thought i would not watch all of this much less in normal speed but i just did and it was so informative in every sense! and i wasn't understandig ur point until the very end, and it was eye opening! congrats for the video, it really made me think in another perspective, and i just learned a lot of cool stuff hehe