Why I HATE GCI’s Titan Track (And why you should too)
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- Опубликовано: 15 апр 2023
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Here's my counterarguments...
1. Thus far, Titan Track has only been installed on small sections of wooden coasters. Even if 10-20% of the ride gets replaced with steel track, a vast majority of the coaster still has wooden track and retains that wooden coaster feel.
2. I'd much rather see a park invest in Titan Track that can likely extend the life of a ride by 20+ years than have a ride deteriorate because they are unwilling or unable to invest in expensive upkeep for the attraction. I remember hearing from Holiday World at an enthusiast event that they spend over a million dollars a year on wood coaster upkeep, and that was at mid-2010s rates. Even if a ride is well built, it will begin to deteriorate within five years and can become unrideable in less than a decade if parks don't invest.
3. The modern public doesn't like rough and uncomfortable rides, so even if Titan Track makes the ride slightly less aggressive, anything that makes it more appealing to a larger cross section of park visitors is a win for the attraction. Plus, very few visitors are going to care that the track isn't truly wood track as long as the experience is what one would expect from a wood coaster.
4. Taking RMC conversion off the table is a non-issue as RMC's best work comes when they're able to build from a blank slate.
I do understand from a pure enthusiast and wooden coaster purist perspective how Titan Track may be seen as bad, but I think the net benefits of it far outweigh the drawbacks. Over the next fifty years, I wouldn't be surprised if track replacement techniques like this cut the number of lost wooden coasters in half, and it will result in rides that feel far more like a classic woodie than anything RMC touches.
Also RMC should NEVER be allowed near any wooden coaster built before 1970 at this point, and anything pre-1940, deadly force should be allowed to keep them away from them. Don't get me wrong, RMC is capable of amazing things, but erasing historic wooden coasters is something that they shouldn't be allowed to do.
CoasterDash basically saying that a NEARLY ONE-HUNDRED YEAR OLD wooden coaster should instead be RMC'd made any points brought up in this video invalid to me, historical preservation trumps giving a ride a better layout.
Yes it really depends on how it's done. The best is to stop fixing certain spots over and over but still do as much wood trackwork, just spread through the ride instead.
@@AceAviations2 Honestly, very few coasters built pre-Dinn or CCI would actually be worth converting. Not only are they generally small and simplistic in layout, but they'd probably need quite a bit of structural work to handle the loading of a typical RMC, which means there wouldn't be much saved by converting it vs. demolishing and building a ground up design in the same spot. It's a common fallacy among enthusiasts, especially young enthusiasts, to think that RMC is a solution for every wood coaster when in reality there are probably less than ten left that would both benefit from the conversion and are at a park that might decide to go that route. Also, if a park really wants to convert a woodie to an IBox, it's foolish to think a few hundred feet of Titan Track is going to be the reason they abandon the plans.
And honestly. It's better for wooden Coaster enthusiast from technical perspective since Titan track engineered to keep their steel wheel running like any other wooden coaster, whereas RMC track must use PE rubber wheel, making the experience more euthanize and also less out of control
Good point except RMCs best work in my opinion has been a mixture. SV and IG have been contested as the two very best while zadra is up there too. So not just the ones that were built from the ground up, although the parts of these coasters that are most loved required some ground up capabilities anyways
I'm one of the few people that immediately fell in love with the Titan Track, mainly because of the logistics behind it.
RMC re-designs are amazing, you touched on that, but those re-designs can be very expensive, Steel Vengeance added iirc 40 feet of height from the original Mean Streak, and a lot of RMC's completely re-design the layout like Iron Gwazi (which used to be a dueling wooden coaster now a single coaster). That's a lot of money and investment into upgrading a ride.
Titan Track was made (and that RMC 208 ReTrak as well I'm guessing) to be a low cost upgrade while preserving the layout, skipping the re-design phase among other phases of construction which add to the budget. To me, this is perfect for small parks and parks with GCI woodies who need an upgrade but don't want to shell out for RMC re-designs. Another thing that lowered the cost if anyone noticed, is that Titan Tracks are riveted instead of welded, allowing for an even faster assembly and production vs RMC's I-Box.
This is why Wildcat and Boulder Dash are going with Titan Track upgrades instead of RMC, Lake Compounce is a small park so whomever owns it probably doesn't have the money like Six Flags/Cedar Fair/Herschend/Dolly Parton/SeaWorld have to RMC their woodies. Boulder Dash retains its out of control terrain layout while not feeling so scarily rough, as does Wildcat for those who want a more normal experience.
I wouldn't be surprised if years down the line my local park's Zippin Pippin will retrack with Titan Track instead of go RMC, it's such a simple wooden coaster, re-designing it would not add any experience to it.
Let the big parks keep their RMC re-designs and other big name rides, and small parks titan track to preserve theirs, everyone wins.
I guess im confused...you are upset Titan track is getting rid of wooden coasters but then you say wish coasters would get RMC'ed which wouldn't make them wooden coasters anymore
just because you can doesn't mean you should
Also suggesting that the RMC a historic wooden coaster that'll turn 100 this decade is unreasonable.
You're focusing on the wrong thing. His #1 point is titan track negates the possibility of an RMC conversion which only happens to wooden coasters that aren't good. His next issue deals with putting titan track on coasters that don't really need to be RMCd thus destroying what makes that wood coaster unique. He's basically saying leave the good woodies alone and if you're gonna try to improve the ride go all the way and RMC it
@@Lloyd00 or you can add the titan track so the ride can survive instead of just letting the ride get dangerous because you want to keep it janky
I think what he's saying is that he doesn't want to lose a wooden coaster unless it's worth it in some way. RMC I-box conversions feel worth it to many people because the new coaster is so much better. Titan Track means a coaster loses its designation as a wooden coaster (depending on how extensive the replacement is) so he doesn't think getting the same layout is worth it, especially because he really values the "wooden coaster feel." At least, I think that's the point he's making.
I don’t mind it if a ride was custom-built such as Zambezi Zinger or if it was a GCI conversion like they showed at IAAPA. For instances like on Predator and White Lightning, they should focus on improving their existing wood track like what they did with Ghostrider.
Edit May 8 2023 : I just realized that Lake Compounce is a Palace entertainment property, arguably the king of well - maintained classic coasters. Whilst I believe that the titan track on Boulder Dash was an improvement to the ride, if Palace is willing to buy it, I worry about their historic coasters in Pennsylvania.
Seeing as Ghostrider wasn't their coaster to begin with, they weren't really "improving" their wooden track so your comment is flawed.
@@guitarman416 GCI tried using a different type of wood for some of the more stressed parts of the track I think so that could be seen as trying to improve on their own wooden track
I completely agree!
@@guitarman416 They put their track on Ghostrider.
There are two frontiers of improvement within the coaster industry. First, lowering the cost of ride systems to increase the size of coaster that parks of a given size will buy. Second, improving track designs and fabrication methods in order to expand the possibilities of layout design.
Titan Track makes huge leaps forward in both. For the first, it allows parks to marry the low upfront cost of a wooden structure with the super low maintenance and greater diversity of elements from weld free steel track. This will make bigger, longer, faster coasters available to smaller and smaller parks in locations and environments in which coasters rarely, if ever, get built. For example, lake compounce could add another bigger, more modern coaster along boulder dash's hillside.
For the second, Titan track still allows the coaster to run steel wheels, which are what give much of the character to wooden coasters. Steel on steel running also allows for much better pacing and runtime thanks to its super low friction compared to the inferior plastic rim wheels found on most steel coasters as well as intamin prefabs and RMCs. You see this most on RMCs with the gen 1 trains. The first half hits hard but then the ride loses steam so fast and this leads to either disastrous pacing or a painfully short layout. But steel wheels wear the track down faster than plastic wheels, and that means the track needs to be replaced sooner, which on a steel coaster is expensive and results in long downtime. With titan track, it is possible to replace the affected rail without touching the spine of the track or the rail on the other side. This makes it feasible to have steel coaster, state of the art, super forceful elements but with the low friction steel on steel running of a wooden coaster. Just imagine the possibilities this opens for longer, modern style layouts with world class pacing.
The problems isn't with the track design itself, it is that GCI aren't ambitious enough with the layouts they design for it. Maybe this will change when they introduce the new infinity flyer trains. With the right trains and layout designs, this could bring the cost (both upfront and maintenance) of a truly world class coaster down to a level that even the smallest regional parks can afford. GCI have a golden opportunity here to create coasters that will mark a generation, i just hope they seize it.
Then, maybe the world can move on from RMC and their wild mouse lateral, no positive G layouts onto something better and more complete, and with steel on steel running. It's up to GCI to make that a reality now.
This is a silly argument and I think you know it too. I’m gonna chalk it up as a nice clickbait title. Fact is though these rides are maintenance issues that the park can’t or won’t upkeep which leads to them being rough. Either you lose a great coaster like boulder dash all together or you update it to last longer. Everyone knows that boulder dash has increasingly gotten worse over the years so fixing some of the higher wear spots makes sense. It’s not rocket science, I’d rather have a coaster around for decades to come then lose them all together.
Also, in places like Florida or California where coasters are known to get rough to increase wear and tear/climate, it also makes a lot of sense. Gwazi used to be a wonderful coaster, don’t let coasters turn into Gwazi. I love RMC but I don’t like them enough to say “rmc it” to every coaster out there.
@@brteller to piggyback on your point about where the coasters are located, if Lake Compounce is deciding to do a retrack of Boulder Dash because they don’t want the track to get bad because of the bad winters here in New England, that I can agree with
The purpose of installing Titan on coasters like Boulder Dash is 100% about improving the reliability of the ride, especially with one that can barely stay open for an entire day. I have a small window to hop over to Lake Compounce later this spring and I'm more than fine with the first drop not having a wood coaster feel if it means I know the ride will be open.
Predator was just not fun anymore and the chances of SF giving Darien Lake an RMC are....well there are none. So I have to say I applaud what they are doing season by season bc that thing was just absolutely ruthless.
Personally, I think steel track can replicate the wooden rollercoaster feeling. Woodies feel the way they do because of the somewhat janky transitions compared with B&Ms and RMCs thanks to tangent-radius design, but with the transitions still being smooth compared with Arrows.
And the out-of-control feeling is also probably partly because of the layout design, with rapid twists and turns and quick pops of force.
And finally, woodies generally have less spacious, less comfortable seats.
I don't really think the material really affects the ride experience.
Wodan didn't feel all that different from Nemesis: Inferno, except for Inferno's focus on positive Gs, it's Floorless trains, and it's over-the-shoulder restraints.
No. A woodie feels the way it does because it runs on a bed of wood track. Steel track cannot "replicate the wooden roller coaster feeling." The difference is like night and day.
@@crooked-halo it can on a wooden support structure with a train running on all-steel wheels.
@@breemik08 Tell me, what steel coaster, running on steel track, uses steel wheels? Does this even exist? I don't believe so, but I could be wrong. I'm quite knowledgeable about _wood_ coasters, but not so much about steel. I've been in this hobby since 81 & cannot think of a steel coaster with steel wheels. Educate me. Regardless, the feeling of a wood roller coaster cannot be replicated using steel track, regardless of the material the wheels are made of.
I feel like Titan Track isn't meant to compete with RMC, instead it's just meant to add new elements to ground-up woodies without changing the feel of a wooden coaster. So imagine a coaster with inversions, launches, and stronger forces, but with the roughness and personality of a woodie. The installations on a few select woodies are sort of a pilot version of this, although I do agree that some coasters don't need this and should instead just go with a standard retrack. Zambezi Zinger has a version of this with the spiral lift hill.
Also, we've seen 208 retrak on Le Monstre at La Ronde, but it still hasn't really caught on yet.
Aight but the thing is they aren’t adding new elements and the feel isn’t the same
Eh, I think in some of these cases, titan track was less of an alternative to a wooden retrack or RMC conversion and more of an alternative to it continuing to be rough, or even just getting removed altogether. With Predator at Darien Lake for example, people had been rumoring they would convert it to an RMC for a while since it was a rough POS. But I'm not convinced that Six Flags would give an RMC to Darien Lake (especially nowadays), and I would bet that the maintenance costs vs. the ridership was just not making sense anymore. Titan track means they don't have to remove/SBNO it and for much cheaper than an RMC conversion. I do still like wooden coasters (and I agree that Boulder Dash scares me a bit) but I'm willing to see how Titan Track plays out.
I think RMC Topper Track is a good solution for reducing maintenance costs.
It's stronger than GG's new track and it's wooden. Their existing products are somewhat rough and unreliable because they pushed it beyond its limits. But if they use it to retrack existing woodies, it will be more reliable.
They also discontinued it.
Titan track is going to save more coasters than you give credit, and prolong the life of coasters that could have otherwise been headed to defunct status. Boulder dash was a ride I went on hundreds of times, I lived very very close to the park and went so many times as a kid. Boulder dash is only getting a section of titan track, but I would argue a full retrack would have been better. You say the roughness is very important for the wooden coaster feel, but my favorite wooden coaster experiences were ones which were smooth like butter. Remember El Toro opening year? Exactly. Titan Tracks will bring back that experience, and it won't degrade like wood does. People who "hate" titan track simply hate innovation and are unwilling to accept progress/change and are clutching pearls, in my opinion!
Titan Track isn't saving a wood coaster. If it's a complete re-track, it's changing it into a steel coaster. If it's partial, it's changing it into a true hybrid. Track is the essence of a roller coaster. I dislike Titan Track since I'm a wood coaster hobbyist and purist, but I don't "hate innovation" nor am I "unwilling to accept progress/change." Your last statement about "people who hate Titan Track" is ridiculous. As a pilot/mechanic of over 20 years I've embraced plenty of innovation, progress and change.
Gravity group also made their own version however its a bit different since while yes they are making the coasters smoother they aren't putting steel on the coaster. Instead they use a wood track however it is vertically placed wood track instead of horizontally placed wood track and it's already been placed on the beast and racer at kings island , Tonnere 2 Zeus at parc asterix and much later , megafobia at oakwood and Grizzly at king's dominion
And voyage at Holiday world
Personally, I don't see why no-one has brought back the IntAmIn-style prefab track. That track was made from a single piece of wood as opposed to multiple pieces stuck together horizontally or vertically.
Gravity Group's new track is almost as strong as IntAmIn's track in terms of withstanding positive and negative Gs, but in terms of withstanding laterals it's actually weaker than regular wooden track.
@@me-myself-i787 The intamin prefab track was VERY expensive if i recall.
@@me-myself-i787 it was not made from a single piece of wood, exactly. it was made from multiple layers of wood that were laminated together into one piece with a glue - kinda like plywood.
@@Hydra_X9K_Music Correct. it also does not have the longevity that was initially advertised, I believe.
I’ve never had an issue with it, as plenty of brutally rough wooden coasters would benefit greatly from titan track, mostly because some of them have fantastic layouts. Wooden coasters don’t generally work with the general public because of how much of a headache they are to maintain, and most parks aren’t willing to maintain their woodies up to standards like holiday world. Financially titan track makes a lot of sense for longevity and overall guest satisfaction.
I just went to Lake Compounce for the first time yesterday and got 3 new credits. The park is so pretty and such a blast! Based on the incredible reputation, I wanted to like Boulder Dash so badly. I've heard that it is inconsistent (sometimes smooth, sometimes not) but I have to say, it was so uncomfortably rough that it's a 1-and-done for me. Bad shaking in all directions. Potholes right when I was getting excited for the next airtime hill ruining the experience. Even during the ride, I was thinking: This layout, aggressiveness, and use of terrain is sooo good, that if I weren't constantly fighting to not get injured, this would be an incredible ride. I somehow emerged with a swollen right pinky knuckle. 🤔 By comparison, RCDB says Boulder Dash was built in 2000 and Thunderbolt at Six Flags New England was built in 1941. Now, I understand that Thunderbolt is FAR tamer than Boulder Dash but it was absolutely much smoother. I haven't tried El Toro yet, but I have to believe it will be a smoother experience than this. Like I said, other than that, the other coasters were great and the park was awesome, capped off with a great fireworks display at closing. In summary, Boulder Dash might benefit from even more Titan track. 😀 My first reaction was: Get RMC over here immediately! but then again, the layout doesn't need modification. It is great already.
I had to watch this vid twice bc the first time I was just listening to the Galaxy ost in the background
W you
i’m pretty sure the 208 retrak is also on monstre at la ronde but as for the titan track thing sure for most enthusiasts its like “OH NO MY FAVORITE WOODEN COASTER IS NOT 100% WOOD ANYMORE WAAAA WAAAA” but enthusiasts are a very small percentage of people who go to parks and most gp hate roughness so titan track is a win-win-win-win because it makes the ride smoother, it reduces maintenance, make the ride more popular, and makes gci money so i like it
One of my first coasters was a woodie, Gwazi. I only rode it in its later years, yet I still loved it
I hope SFSL gives The Boss the Ghostrider treatment.
I completely agree that wooden coasters are an important part of the America and that they should be cherished and preserved however I don't exactly like them. One of the first coasters I ever road was Boulder Dash and wihle I understand the thrill of the roughness now I didn't back then. I couldn't appreciate the roughness of the ride and it quickly manifest a fear of all coasters for me. It wasn't until I then went on Apollo's Chariot at Busch Gardens that I realized how much I like coasters again. I don't dislike the idea of them but personally I would much rather ride something fast as hell then feel like the coaster is about to fly off the track.
The problem we have is that a lot of people generally don’t like wooden roller coasters. When a park is able to market an old wooden roller coaster as either “new and improved” or RMC it and advertise it as something completely different, people will be super excited about that. Unfortunately, I don’t think many regular people care about preserving older, or even not so old wooden roller coasters.
On my 3 week coaster trip last Summer, the most intense wood coasters had long lines. Voyage, Legend, Raven, Ravine Flyer II, Gold Striker, Ghostrider (3-4 hour long lines with 2 trains), Apocalypse, Thunderhead all had very long lines of people who apparently _did_ like wooden roller coasters. In fact Voyage, perhaps the most aggressive wood coaster in the world, increases in wildness after dark. As the sun set, it's line became _longer_ & everyone was crazy with enthusiasm, even those waiting in line were yelling & clapping.
I predict that woodies will always have a unique space in the Amusement world. True, they are expensive, but they still exhume class and nostalgia. Simply put, just good old-fashioned fun. Our 21st-century tech and AI updates can only bring them to the next level..safety, etc. included.
I agree. Thanks for posting!
i genuinely dont think it's bad for woodies to have some stress spots be replaced with steel track. As long as most of the track is still wood it shouldn't take the life out of that wild feeling. And if it means that the longevity of these coasters can be extended because of it I am all for it. For example I think it'd be a great idea to have the RMC built El Toro have a part of it's track replaced with their solution. Keep almost everything wood except for where that pothole was. That doesn't make it a hybrid coaster, it's still a woodie. I think the best way to classify them is through feeling, is the track less dynamic in feel due to track having been switched out, then it's more likely to be classified as a hybrid. Is it more dynamic with the wild feeling of wood, but with a few replacements of steel in stress points, it's a woodie.
Gravity Group won the contract to retrack Wildcat with their new CNC cut wooden pre-fab track.
Great explaination on the tracks. I totally agree with your view.
I absolutely love woodies, up until a few years ago I would only ride wooden roller coasters, but now I am a full blown enthusiast, so I ride steel all types, but I can say I would rather take a ride on a bouncy wooden coaster than some new ish steel coaster such as steel curtain
Hey, totally unrelated to this video, but the family made it out to Florida for the first time and we leaned heavily on your videos for research, especially for Universal IoA and Busch Gardens Tampa which I was really too lazy to do any research on until just before we went. Really find those top 10 rides at such and such videos useful.
I’ve bounced back and forth on this, I see both sides. On one hand, it makes sense that a park would want to smooth out a section of the a wooden coaster that isn’t able to be fixed by wood. However, this is also a lazy way out for a park like Lake Compounce with Boulder Dash. I never loved that ride but the novelty about the ride was how out of control it was. Now they are just throwing steel on random places that didn’t even need it like the first drop. Darien Lake is also supposedly doing the whole thing on Predator which makes sense because the GP doesn’t like along with most enthusiasts, but it’s not like it’s really a new ride. I heard it’s expensive, so why they didn’t choose to go with RMC confuses me. They either need to change layout & profiling on these full conversions, or parks should choose RMC. Gravity Group does a great job with their pre-cut track, so they are best option for keeping rides wood. I’m glad Cedar Fair seems to be leaning toward them for their classic, fan favorite coasters. The best use for the Titan track is really just for small sections that can’t be fixed by wood retracking like forceful turns, but other than that, I’d like to see wood coasters stay wood
Another aspect of wood coasters is the low friction from steel wheels on steel runners. This gives them the sense they might keep going forever, and long layouts of moderate height like Voyage. Titan also allows this. So did Topper but apparently Outlaw Run is the only one with steel wheels (and therefore can not be easily Ibox'd).
I totally hear your concern with the downfall of wooden coasters. I definitely share your concern. I would be devastated of The Beast was converted to hybrid and I have vehemently opposed all thoosies’ suggestions of an RMC conversion of The Beast or The Racer (Kings Island is my home park). However, I understand how from a perspective of financial investment and continual maintenance, products like Retrak and Titan Track can help prevent the demise of woodies that would otherwise be demolished. Wooden coaster maintenance is a significant cost every year. And the park that don’t manage to keep up with woodie maintenance as it is needed, either end up with a rough ride or they tear it down.
Two more concerns of mine is the popular opinion of the general public and re-rideablity. If a ride is perceived as rough, uncomfortable, bumpy, jerky, etc… it often gets the ax. Likewise, if a coaster is viewed as a “one and done” and not something you want to marathon, it won’t survive. You don’t have to think very hard for examples. For me, the one that hits home is Vortex at KI. That was my home ride when I worked at the park in 2018. When asked why the park decided to tear it down, the GM was quoted saying “I rode it one day and decided it was too rough.” I’m paraphrasing but that was the general idea. Unfortunately, it didn’t matter that the ride had a cult following among GP and thoosies alike. I would have loved to have seen some sort of refurbishment for the ride, but that product isn’t on the market and if it were, it probably wouldn’t have a good ROI. Whereas, when you RMC a coaster, it solves all these problems. I look at Retrak and Titan Track the same way. If it can be used to save a coaster from demolition, I welcome it with open arms. Uhhh, just leave The Beast and Racer alone though 😂
Great video, Marc. Glad to see someone speaking up about this. I’d go a step further - Wildcat and coasters of its ilk that are genuinely historic shouldn’t even be RMC’d. We have enough roughly similar mid-sized RMCs in the world. People are gonna really regret not preserving these classic wooden roller coasters until it’s too late.
Ok this I get behind, I just don’t like how he was implying that RMC is doing the right thing by retracking the whole ride and getting rid of the wooden feel all together. GCI is atleast only retracking SOME of the sections, while keeping part, if not most of the ride a wooden coaster.
I don’t mind Titan track because it makes wooden coasters more accessible for middle aged thoosies that grew up riding wooden coasters but can’t ride them anymore due to being worried they’ll injure their back or have their dentures shaken out of their head 😂.
Wildcat was not exactly historic. It was essentially a prototype. Just because it was the first ride a company ever made does not make it historic. It was a very OK woodie and did not push any boundaries or revolutionize the industry. It merely established GCI as a builder of wooden coasters - something that others have done before and continue to do.
I've only done 2 wooden coasters. The first one is Wicerman at Alton Towers and the other is Roller Coaster at Great Yarmouth Pleasure Beach which is a 90 year old scenic railway
I love woodies, my home park has 4 of varying sizes (from my first cred of Zipper Dipper [now Blue Flyer] up to The Big Dipper and Grand National and whilst neither as as good as they were with the buzz bars they are still iconic. Hell The Big Dipper is 100 years old this year.
Grand National, in 1985 during the first ACE Europe Con, instantly became my #3 wood coaster! Lovely coaster! Loved all the Blackpool wood coasters, especially Wild Mouse, and the park is/was like heaven on earth!
I do not have any issues with GCI's titan track, as I personally consider a wooden coaster to have a track made of 50% wood. In my opinion, since GCI has advertised their capability to do full-scale remodels, which could just lead to competition between RMC and GCI! Though I don't think Lake Compounce should've taken away parts of the track in place of titan track, it was not all. So by the way I consider wooden coasters, GCI is not eliminating them, just improving them.
Historic Coaster Foundation is that you?
I think you bring up some really good points in the video
I wonder what Kennywood's Woodie's would feel like with Titan Track.
Imagine if Hurler at Carowinds got Titan Track
That would become a completely new ride
If you’ve got a rough woodie with a good layout Titan track makes so much more sense than RMC
A day later and reddit user reveals that Mineblower will be getting a rmc 208 retrack...
I didn't really hear people knocking Boulder Dash and if anything, I hear most issues about the ride's ending. I am not sure the exact point on the ride that was altered since I haven't been to any parks in New England (but I have been to CT, MA, and NH-I actually watched the Lightning Rod announcement form a CT rest stop and got on it a year to the day). Personally, I think more people would like a full Titan Track conversion of Wildcat or something else there entirely. For now, Titan Track is used only as a corrective measure on pre-existing rides or allow unique elements on a ride so they can compete with steel manufacturers (like Zambezi Zinger) and want to be treated as a rival to RMC. Also most of Gravity Group's projects are family coasters these day as outside of China, only 3 coasters are large scale-and Swichback at ZDT's was their most innovative (so much so Dorney Park was interested in one-but that ended up getting shelved)
I rode four of those Gravity Group "family coasters" last Summer and they all completely blew me away. I couldn't believe how powerful and fun they are! Wooden Warrior is my favorite, I think, though Roar-O-Saurus is a very close second. I heard several times comments such as "I thought that was supposed to be a kids coaster!"
I would like to point out that the only section of Boulder Dash that is getting Titan track is the first drop and the first speed hill, the rest of the ride is still gonna be wood. I get why people are upset about Titan track, but I really don’t think that it is that big a deal, and this is coming from someone who’s #1 coaster is Boulder Dash. It’s not like parks are gonna do full Titan track on all their wooden coasters, they do Titan track on coasters that have great layouts that don’t need RMCd, but they have a few problematic areas. Boulder Dash doesn’t need RMCD, they just needed a more permanent solution for that specific part of the ride that has been causing them problems since the coaster opened. In Wildcats case, I can see the argument that they could’ve just RMCD it, the ride has been causing them problems since Dinn rebuilt it almost 4 decades ago. But I can’t really fault them for wanting to keep the original layout. Again, I get why people are angry about it, but unless they start going after historic coasters that don’t have any problems the way they are, like Jackrabbit or Phoenix, we should keep our torches and pitchforks down, and give these small modifications a chance.
Also the coasters that have been getting it have been running faster than ever. I rode Wolverine Wildcat last year and it was hauling through its layout, and if it has the same affect on Boulder Dash, then Boulder Dash is about to be better than ever.
If the Boss in SFSTL doesn't go Iron Horse it kinda needs it
Did Matt Glumac write this video?
Zambezi Zinger I won’t really mind I bet but in all, I agree
Some have said it already, but i’m surprised you made no mention or comparison of the Gravity Group’s new Pre-Cut retrackings and you probably should have. They’re the main competition for titan track. I think the limitations/pros and cons between the two would make for a really interesting video.
I see it has saving old coasters now instead of RMC or teardown there is a much cheaper way too keep these old coasters going now the parks can spend the money on other things like new coasters or other improvements
I'm with you for the most part. A part of me does think it's a shame to have steel track on the old woodies from the original golden age of roller coasters. However these rides have been defiled long before Titan Track, as very few can say they are running the original trains. Roller Coaster running stock has a lot to do with how it feels and just in my lifetime alone I have seen various iterations of headrest, seatbelts, seat dividers, and lap bars added or changed on the classic wooden coasters from the 60's and 70's. It's one thing when a ride is altered for safety or longevity, but I think many changes done to rolling stock in the past fifty years is so parks can save on insurance premiums by having "safer" rides, or worse, so corporations can please share holders with lower operating costs due to those lower insurance premiums. In contrast, wouldn't you be curious to ride Lake Compounce's Wildcat if they made it butter smooth with with Titan Track and replicated the current Millennium Flyers with a 3 or 4 row comfy padded bench seat, with a fixed hand rail (or whatever it had originally)? I think it would hold up as a great family coaster. So if a hundred feet of steel track is going save from replacing track every few years and remove the major potholes and pain that, I'm sure weren't the intention of the original designers, then I think in contrast to your title, I love GCII's Titan Track (and you should too). :)
I'm all for it. I'd rather ride a smooth steel coaster that's pretending to be a woodie than a rough "real" woodie.
You make some really good points in this video, and I think if they were just keep the tighten track to correct in potholes and troublesome spots on coasters and not replacing large stretches of track, it would be OK. Also, the South Park clip in the beginning was magnificent. Keep up the good work.
Thank you! I appreciate the support 😆
"tighten track"
@@protowave yeah thanks autocorrect
I agree with alot of your points, but in the case of parks that get a super limited budget more specifically in the case of Darien Lake's Predator. Here you have a park that has been getting no park quality upgrades since the addition of Tantrum(pre six flags mgt retaking) and the Larson Looper and with those rides absolutely no park experience upgrades. Predator has a great layout, but honestly the rides I got on it back in 2021 were some of the most uncomfortable rides I've had on anything (and I've ridden Mean Streak over a hundred times). At that point I had pretty much given up on even bothering with it. However a somewhat spontaneous trip to Darien last year led me to hesitantly ride Predator again and I couldn't believe how much of difference just the small amount of Titan track did make. It made that ride a significantly more enjoyable experience. I actually rode it like 8 times with a 4 in a row stint at closing. I honestly believe preserving wooden coasters should be a main goal, but some parks that just don't draw the crowds to support the maintenance or a full retracking can definitely benefit from the Titan track method as opposed to the grim alternative of scrapping the ride completely.
Idk if this is a controversial opinion or not but I’ve recently come to the realization that I actually prefer the gravity group over GCI
100% agree
What about joris en de draak? Brilliant use of titan track
I think the intamin prefabs are an interesting case- nobody is going back to intamin for new pre-cut pieces. Layouts were obviously designed beyond conventional wood construction capabilities. Do you think a steel product could be a good alternative for the highest stress areas of these coasters to keep them operating? The rides are great but haven’t proven to be very durable.
My favourite wooden coaster ever and 2nd favourite coaster ever is grand national at Blackpool pleasure beach
I rode Wolverine wildcat at Michigan’s adventure last summer and they have placed titan track on the drop. It was so smooth and made the ride much more enjoyable. And the rest of the coaster was still a wild and sort of rough wooden coaster, but it wasn’t so unbearable that I wish they would retrack that as well. The drop needed it for sure
while i've only been on 2 woddies in and only in the uk i find that the wood makes it feel like its going at 60 miles per hour when its only going 40 it is a big appeal to gp as well while on the grand national it is a bit bumpy the padding on the seats make it feel comfortable so im fine with roughness as i don't mind it but if gci finds a way to outshine rmc with their titan track layouts i think that would be amazing and if they also develop smooth wooden track that is durable and smooth i think they would explode into one of the best manufacturers in teh world as they can outshine the gravity group with their products and quality and if their layouts are good enough they can outshine rmc
I don't mind with what they have done with Joris and de Draak. It was having real issues with just one corner they replaced that titan and the rest they are in the process of retracking it with wood. ane track is completed i believe the other one will be done this year. So it still mostly is a woody in my opnion and it would have need to be scrapped because of to high a maintance cost if they hadn't. Now as for retracking evrything nope i agree with you there unless there is absolute no other option wich i think is not a real thing.
Yes exactly! It changes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the ride experience, if it changes anything it only improves it!
I hear ya BUT... American Eagle at SF Great America (my home park) is in desperate need of a retrack from either GCI, Gravity Group, or RMC. It's ruffffff! And usually only one side of the two tracks is running. There has to be a balance between honoring history and modern advances in coaster technology.
I was all on board until GG's precut wooden track came into the game. Now I feel like that's a better solution as the track stays wooden, eliminating the concern about the wooden coaster feel. Then again, we don't know how either will hold up in comparison to the other as both are new
I think some rides would really benefit from Titan track. Gold Striker would be a great fit if it wasn't going away. That ride ran its best directly out of its retrack for the 2022 season, where the roughest parts were actually really smooth. Some rides like Gold Striker and Voyage run so aggressive on their track that they need almost constant retracking, especially Voyage since it runs heavier PTC trains. I know Holiday World would never do it, but I think Titan track on parts of Voyage would benefit them. Yes, GG has their track they're using, but it's still wood and it will wear down a lot quicker than Titan track. Just my opinion, but Titan track is a savior to wooden coasters. Preserving rides that would otherwise be torn down.
Fair I agree I also have to say to me it’s wierd what lake compounce chose to do, for they are owned by the same people who own Kennywood in wich is one of if not the best at maintaining there wooden coasters that to me it’s wierd to see the desrepicly of lake compounce having a lot harder time maintaining the coasters. I hope Kennywood keeps there woodies as woodies as they have done so far and I really hope they build a ground up RMC
Maybe they could give the gci Titan track some colour on their wooden rollercoasters.
I don't have an issue with it because the maintenance and re-tracking just becomes unreasonable. Just look at Wildcat, they re-tracked it, got new trains painted it and it's still a disaster. They tried and still keep their admission reasonable. These woodies just get to a point where it simply doesn't make sense anymore because it's too expensive and time consuming. I guess in a perfect world where money was no object and they could infinitely raise admission prices (Here's looking at you Disney!) then sure keeping them original would be cool. But in the real world it just doesn't make much sense.
Okay. I agree with your points. So a couple things. The whole “taking an RMC off the table” is fine by me because it’s just business and they way you stated that makes it seem to me like the purpose you have for a woodie is to have it be RMCed one day. I do think that GCI should offer to change the layout a bit though.
Two, I am fine with partial, but very little retracking: on the bottom of highest stress moments, where it is most rough, the speed you accumulate should still not take away from the feel as it will only be on some pullouts. I wonder what you think of this though.
Three, custom built ones are fine by me. In that case it’s a whole new layout and a whole new coaster but I wonder what you think.
I really like most of the points you made in this video. I wish RMC tried to make slightly more traditional woodies so they would still be on the table maybe, along with their other amazing options. Anyway I find it a little very little hypocritical that it is completely fine if a coaster gets RMCed which while it is great this video seems to be more about preservation of wooden coaster but Ibstill get it because they change layout.
(also pls do goliath or cannibal for your short series looool)
The reality is... Most of these rides are actually painful to ride, and most people wont ride them once let alone multiple times. These new tracks could really improve ridership.
You: "Hate gets more clicks." Me: ROFLMBO☠🤣
If there is another reason why titan track is being use is the price of wood now a days it is really expensive and should be no surprise to anyone on that we can bicker and bicker about it but that were most of the expenses, when it comes to wooden coaster just think how many so yellow pine tree are used to make lumber for wooden coasters it ain't cheap.
The price of steel is still higher than the price of wood. However, parks probably think now's a good time to get Titan Track.
Boulder Dash is getting so rough that it's detracting from the ride experience--I rode it last summer and I think something had to be done. That said, I would have preferred to see Gravity Group have a go at it with their prefab wooden replacement track. But there's a limit to how sad I can feel about this.
Sorry but if it keeps the actual wood coasters in operation for years to come I'm all for it
I think your are right but not completely its not only for smoothing out but also for reducing mathetinens cost
The GP doesn't exactly like wooden coasters as much as we do - my parents won't ride Ghostrider because it gives them a headache despite them not having ridden the retrack from GCI. And speaking of which, I think that ride is safe, but once it does receive Titan Track, it's no longer going to be the West Coast's largest and longest wooden coaster - a record will be extinguished should it ever get titan track.
it's trends it comes and goes, the tallest in the world, the longest in the world, the most inversions, the better themed, the rmc, now it's the steel track and in a couple years no one will care anymore, specially because if they start doing this to a lot of rides (outside the lift hill and brake runs wich to me make a lot of sense to have them in steel) people will miss the woodies and they will return so the park can promote them, wouldn't surprise me if in 15 to 20 years we see something like "this coaster returns to it's original form to reconquer the alley" or some bullshit and they just retrack it back to wood
joris en de draak got titan track and iron wood upgrade to extend the logevity of the coaster. joris en de draak has been a ride that in the later years gotten more and more problematic so it was either remove it for another new rollercoaster or save it as much as possible and fix problematic parts with titantrack. you may lose some feeling in the ride but didnt lose the coaster in general.
I think the real problem is that parks and the industry as a whole needs to satisfy the GP, and a lot of GP don't really like wooden coasters ubless they're super well maintained and even then those will have some "roughness" that's not actually rough just it being wooden
I agree so much I want woodies to live on why put steel track on them I think rmc a does a thing like that but I think there retracking track is wood
Blow to titan track: Mindblower goes RMC!!!🎉
Not every coaster has to be converted to an extreme RMC multi inversion, wonky offset hill coaster.
Many wooden coasters, have great layouts and are horrible rides because of the rough wooden track. The titan track allows these coasters to keep a traditional wooden coaster layout and provide a better ride with less maintenance
I hope the Boulder Dash and others ends up 100% Titan track
Maybe the Titan track may Make wooden coasters invert
I personnaly thinks the « wood texture » is sort of a fantasy : there's always roughness with the « texture »...
Of course, a small and steady rattle adds up to the pacing of the ride, but let’s face it : it’s never steady. Most of the time there's bumps and jolts that restrains us from experiencing the layout in itself (how can we enjoy an airtime while being shaked around ?).
While I’ve actually liked a few of the wood coasters i’ve ridden (Thunderbird, Wodan, Balder, and some smaller ones…), there’s a LOT of them I couldn’t appreciate - even with a good layout !! - because it was uncomfortable.
Troy at Toverland, Timber at Walibi R-A, Lou-Garou at Walibi Belgium, T2Z at Parc Asterix were all disappointments while featuring amazing layouts. That’s a shame, especially considering some of those rides (Troy, T2Z) are regularly maintained...
I feel like titan and i-box tracks are the future of woodens, as they get rid of the main issues of wood (maintenance difficulties, lack of comfort…) while keeping (overall) the essence of a wood coaster : the dense structure, which constitutes an extension of the ground maintaining the sense of speed even when being high up (and thus allowing shortened elements - a steel coaster tends to add wide elements that begins at ground level and also finish at ground level - and very fast pacing).
Yeah, we’d loose the « wood texture »… but for a few rides that have indeed this « wood texture » (and only that), how many have plain roughness ? With the maintenance issues on top of that, I’m not sure that’s a good trade… :/
I hope to god they don’t steel track El Toro but actually take care of it. It’s just a different experience when it’s wood and it’s taken care off
Titan track is being used on Grizzly at Kings Dominion and actually enhanced a drop with the track.
that's not titan track that's precut track from gravity group
@@bigpoetothegibdo5987 The superior option in preserving wood coasters
I agree, the design of the titan track also feels rushed since theres not really anything to it, and is not really smooth. Also the titan track at efteling has also been unreliable over the last weeks ( it has gotten better)
I've been a passionate wood coaster hobbyist since 1981 & have ridden nearly all woodies in the U.S. & lots of defunct ones. If a park wants a wood coaster, they should maintain it as a wood coaster, like Kennywood, Knoebels, Holiday World. RMC conversions, while I _do_ enjoy them, suffer from sameness. They lack the personality & feel of wood. Wood coasters are alive, real, hardcore. Titan track changes a wood coaster to a hybrid (if partial) or a steel coaster (if 100%). I dislike Titan track, but it comes down to a park saving and making money. Hobbyists/enthusiasts often want something that doesn't make money. It appears that U.S. wood coaster construction has all but ended, which is sad. What will Gravity Group do with their dedication to "wood-only?" They've built several great woodies in China & other countries, and their awesome "family coasters" continue to slowly appear, like Kentucky Flyer, Oscar's, Wooden Warrior, Roar-O-Saurus, which all _kick ass!_ So, I dislike Titan Track, too! I'll spend my time travelling, riding, photographing & loving the greatest wood coasters in the world. I'm considering working/retiring at Knoebels (Phoenix is "my" coaster, which I helped save). This year I _might_ finish riding all U.S. wood coasters. Then China is next! There's lots of big Gravity Group & GCI coasters there! And _no Titan Track_ yet! I better hurry!
And now Mineblower is getting a 208 retrack 😕
Wish they would’ve gone with Gravity Group precut track instead. Would’ve kept it a wooden roller coaster, whilst heavily reducing maintenance costs.
@@CoasterDash Except the issues wth MineBlower can't easily be fixed with wooden track. There are construction-related structural flaws that require the rigidity of steel track. As someone who loves wooden coasters, I've been disappointed with MineBlower since it was brand new.
RMC opened the floodgates. Before I rode one of their rides my top coasters were all woodies. But their success has made parks rethink the value in the upkeep for such rides. With forces being pushed ever further, it’s hard for manufacturers and parks to justify the cost for woodies long term when both enthusiasts and the GP have embraced conversions. Sadly it was just a matter of time before some decided to go the even cheaper route and re-track their woodies with Titan track. I highly doubt this would have become an option had it not been for the success of RMC’s re-designs. But not just their popularity. Their affordability and now with years of maintenance behind these hybrid coasters to look at, of course parks are thinking of even cheaper ways to solve maintenance issues.
I’m sure a few classics will endure, but they’ll be the exception sadly versus the rule.
I'm fine with it smoother than wood
And cheaper than rmc
my opinion of it is it should be like salt, to enhance, not cover
It'll be interesting to see it put in new GCI coasters with inversions like some of their models a few years ago
My Mother And Some Of My Friends Hate Troy At Toverland Because it is A Bit Shaky. So GCI is Only Trying To Help That. So i Don't See Any Reason To Hate The Titan Track..
Dude.. titan track only improves the ride like with joris en de draad (it didn't change anything about the "wooden feeling"), making one part smoother doesn't have any con's. And btw. Wooden coasters originated here in Europe and we still have quite a few... a lot in the Netherlands, couple in france and Germany and even in Belgium where we have the full FOUR themeparks TWO have woorden coaster's.
I get your argument and I don't want to see the industry give up on building and maintaining wooden coasters. But I'll play devil's advocate here. First, a lot of people felt the same about RMC when they started their conversions. You made a good point about how their conversations result in new elements and a more extreme experience. But they are still ultimately replacing an old wooden coaster with a new steel one so they have the exact same effect on the overall global wooden coaster count as a complete Titan retracking.
So maybe the more extreme layouts make an I-box conversion "worth it" because we gain a more interesting ride while sacrificing one of our few wooden coasters. Well then we have to ask, what is the purpose of Titan Track and could we argue that Titan Track is "worth it" in some cases? So far, Titan Track exists to add smoothness and durability to sections of wooden coasters that need it. They've said they could use it to add more extreme elements in the future so maybe that would make it akin to an RMC conversion. But for now the utility is smoothness and reliability.
We can then ask, what would happen if they didn't ever use Titan Track? Well, either the coasters would get rougher and less reliable, the park would have to spend extra money to maintain the wooden coasters better or the coasters would just go defunct. Well, I wish every park treated their wooden coasters like Holiday World does but we just know that doesn't happen in many cases. It's not really GCI's fault that parks often let them get rough. So since we know that some of them will get old, rough and unreliable we have to ask what we think should happen with those coasters. A park could go the Great American Scream Machine route and just retrack it very infrequently knowing that it'll only occasionally be a good ride. Or parks could just let them stay rough. Or parks could let them wear out and be replaced. I like the idea of some of those coasters getting the I-Box conversion but some of them should be kept alive if possible, even if it doesn't mean they get constant upkeep. I don't think that Titan Track being added to a few strategic locations means a coaster loses its status as a wooden coaster. But if it means that some old wooden coasters can have their service life extended and remain a comfortable ride then it's worth it.
The big question is whether or not the industry will shift such that parks that would have otherwise maintained their old woodies well will just entirely redo them with Titan Track. I don't know if that will happen. I don't want to see that happen but I also don't want every old wooden coaster to get an I-Box conversion either. So in my opinion Titan Track conversions do have a very good purpose and it's worth it, so long as it remains limited to fixing sections of wooden track that would have otherwise been neglected.
Did GCI come out and say that their titan track is the response to RMC conversions? Otherwise you are judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree.
You’re still young 😂 When your body starts to suffer from the roughness of poorly maintained wood coasters of the inevitable jolt from a pot hole, you’ll get why Titan Track is being added. It allows more riders. Which brings more people into the parks.
A small part of me died when I first heard Boulder Dash was getting Titan track.
Retracking with real wood is expensive and often not worth the investment from a business stadpoint and most attendees don't like the rough wood feel. So do you want the coaster to get some steel sections or not exist at all? Your choice
@@guitarman416 Gravity Group's Prefab track has entered the chat
@@starscreamtron money entered the chat back. Try again, wannabe
@@starscreamtron also El Toro. It’s like you want to lose the argument. Are you even trying
@@guitarman416 Why can't ya just respect my opinion? Just gonna be a real know-it-all huh? Not everyone has to agree with you. There's literally no argument. I'm not trying to change your opinion so just chill. Grow up
i feel like i disagree. at the end of the day, amusement parks are businesses and if the park can’t justify paying for the expensive upkeep of a ride, i’d rather them extend its longevity than to let it fall apart.
With Lake Compounce near me, I’ve always loved the true roughness that Boulder Dash delivers. I’ve always felt that a coaster like that gets better with its age. Wildcat, I was never a fan of, but with Boulder Dash, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
I feel that improving some parts of rides that are freakishly rough is a good thing (which is what their doing) The fact they haven't retracked an entire ride makes me think they won't do the entire thing. I feel that fully ground up titan track will soon have its own little thing, with launches, inversions and better air. So I believe it's good.
Pre-cut track ftw! I think GG is retracking Shivering Timbers
Hopefully right? Gravity Group really is the lone hope of preserving the wooden roller coaster. I love GCI, but woodies are in serious trouble. Which is such a shame because their feel is so distinct.
I can name a buncha Woody's than could use Titian