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Stockton doesn’t my get enough criticism for not stepping his game up in those finals vs the Bulls, especially 98. He averaged 9.7 ppg in the 98 finals and everyone wants to talk about how much of a choker Malone was.
I feel stockton too many time just forced his distributor role even if the team needed him to be more aggressive, sure he would get 15 assists but the offense could have been better. On the other hand CP3 would give you like 10 or 11 assists but also give you 23 or 25 points if defenders didnt respect him. Just imagine a CP3 without injuries and having a 26 point per game teammate on his team for like 15 years. Stockton is probably greater than CP3, but if we are talking about who was better CP3 was a different type of monster.
I feel like you didnt see much Stockton. The offense generated with some of those rosters, was incredible. And this didnt happen because he "forced assists" as a whole or at the wrong time/situation. These things happened because Jerry Sloans system, a very heavy pick & roll/pop system. This is the system that created the CP3 or DWill debate in the late 2000s. Without it DWill would have never been in the conversation.... both were wrong btw, it was Bullups.
@@JimBob-jr5up Look the games, he consistently had possesions in which he is just open but still decides to run a play in which he passes the ball. The offense was incredible, but it could have been better if he attacked more forcing the defenders to waste more attention on him. I feel CP3 understand that equilibrium better giving the team a better rhythm.
@@sergeistalin7916 Being open for a second or two does not mean you should take a shot. If youre running a set, finishing running that set. Its better an offense run consistently and properly than to play a wild card just because you can. I dont get the idea of Stockton's offense being better. Again, were talking about around AS numbers for well over half his career. The criticism that he could do better is inane, arbitrary and a false nit pick that could be blindly applied to virtually everyone. CP3 has a more versitile skill set and higher IQ and is an amazing floor general. But the only time he is solidified in this leadership role is when the team around him is younger. When his surrounding teammates are the same age or older, he gets lost at the end of games. And that seems to be the cause for his lack of post season achievements. Whereas with Stockton and his greater post season accomplishments, everyone knew what was going to happen.... pick and roll, pick and pop, bounce and drive left only.... you knew it was comibg and yet, there was nothing you could do about it.
@@JimBob-jr5up My point is that a good offense takes what the defense gives up. If you are open for a second or 2 and you dont take the shot that means that you are hurting your team or miss positioned. You can still run your set play and get a shot that your teammate can make at 40% rate even if contested, or you can abuse the fact that you are open to get a 50% shot or higher. Both are unstoppable, but 1 is better. I would say Stockton achivements in the playoffs are a result or not being injured and having a player even better than him in the same team. Like i said give CP3 15 healthy seasons with a top 5 scorer of all time on his team and he is winning championships.
@@trevorrobinson8652 other nba players say cp3 was great so that’s not a good argument and calling cp3 a loser when John Stockton played with a top 5 PF all time for his whole career and had the luxury of being a number two and was still just as much of a loser as cp3 is dumb 😂
@@manifgotti4886 yeah I KNOW he’s BETTER then mj !! iggy would put mj in JAIL !!! Did you forget 6ft3 GARY PAYTON held Mj to 26ppg on 40% shooting IN THE FINALS??? Gary Payton is NOT iggy!! Iggy a finals MVP way bigger way stronger way more athletic way better defender then Payton iggy is taking mjs lunch !! I shouldn’t even have to explain that mj didn’t face any alltime greats on the perimeter !!! all the great players on his era we’re BIGS so he had it easy at his position
@@mybestnugget7514 no lol Jordan isn’t as good at getting to the rim, not as good a finisher, not as good a 3 point shooter and he’s miles and miles behind Lebron as a passer lebron has also been a CONSISTENT lob threat his whole Career so also better then mj that mj is only better shooting more freethrows & making more of them that’s literally the only offensive edge he has over lebron unless u consider settling for midrange jumpers (the least efficient shot in basketball) a necessary skill
People are questioning why Stocton was so adamant about being this great playmaker instead of playing like cp3 and exhibiting more of his offensive game. People are forgetting that stockton played in a different era. Why does that matter?? Because back then coaches had WAY more control over the teams style of play than now. For example, it was widely predicated that more of the offense was to go through the big man AND the 3pt line wasnt as respected back then because of the defensive rules. If a guard were to run down the court and take a couple of 3s like they do now: 1. Youre percentages are gonna look way worse therefore youd be discouraged intrinsically AND by your teammates and coach to keep doing so (i.e.: if you and everyone around you are constantly starting the game going like 1/4 back then from the 3pt line, as opposed to now shooting in an era with easier defense going 2/4, then thats a HUUUUGE difference). Therefore... 2. Consequently, most of the time the coach would sub you out back then. Why do you think guys like Gilbert Arenas didnt get the recognition he deserved?? He pushed the boundaries and was ahead of his time because he took more control out of the hands of the coach and played a more free-flowing offense where he dictated his own shots (i remember! Fans like us were like "yo this dude is cold!!" But the older generation like the coaching staff were more traditional n didnt like it so they tried to either change his style of play or take away his minutes). So yea if you were there in REAL TIME you'd understand why stocton choose to pass up certain shots or play a particular style of basketball. That lingering thought of "ok i gotta look out for my big man" (most point guards were taught this) or "fuck, if i take this shot then coach is prob gonna retaliate somehow" was the primary way of thinking for most guards cuz thats what was imbedded into their brains. Youre not gonna realize that if you fast forward 30 years and are looking at his numbers/play style on a screen without any context behind it. So yea if Stockton played in THIS era his offensive numbers would be way more inflated due to 1. Defense obvioulsy being way softer And 2. He would be encouraged to do things like speed down the court in open transition, and take a 3 imstead of waiting on the big man. Just this one aspect alone would open up his game DRAMATICALLY 😂
@@user-xb4fm5rx8hwho cares if he didnt average above 20 points? What does that change? CP3 did and what did it accomplish? He couldnt even match Stockton's PO achievements. This might be a point if we were talking half the production, but were not. And Karl Malone, along with Ostertag, Williams, Vaughn, and all those other guys where partially products of Sloans system.
📢Voting Information for NBA Debates:
Your input matters! We consider:
Live votes
Poll results
Rewatch votes
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Every vote counts in determining the debate winner! Keep participating and let your voice be heard!
Braised oxtail got cooked
Chris Paul was a better shooter, passer, defender, finisher at the rim, everything. What did Stockton do better?
CP3 was not a better shooter!!!
@@dewanewelch1744lmaoooooo no way we thinking Stockton was a better shooter than cp3😭😭😭
@@dewanewelch1744what are you smoking?
Stockton doesn’t my get enough criticism for not stepping his game up in those finals vs the Bulls, especially 98. He averaged 9.7 ppg in the 98 finals and everyone wants to talk about how much of a choker Malone was.
I feel stockton too many time just forced his distributor role even if the team needed him to be more aggressive, sure he would get 15 assists but the offense could have been better.
On the other hand CP3 would give you like 10 or 11 assists but also give you 23 or 25 points if defenders didnt respect him.
Just imagine a CP3 without injuries and having a 26 point per game teammate on his team for like 15 years.
Stockton is probably greater than CP3, but if we are talking about who was better CP3 was a different type of monster.
I feel like you didnt see much Stockton.
The offense generated with some of those rosters, was incredible. And this didnt happen because he "forced assists" as a whole or at the wrong time/situation.
These things happened because Jerry Sloans system, a very heavy pick & roll/pop system.
This is the system that created the CP3 or DWill debate in the late 2000s. Without it DWill would have never been in the conversation.... both were wrong btw, it was Bullups.
@@JimBob-jr5up Look the games, he consistently had possesions in which he is just open but still decides to run a play in which he passes the ball.
The offense was incredible, but it could have been better if he attacked more forcing the defenders to waste more attention on him. I feel CP3 understand that equilibrium better giving the team a better rhythm.
@@sergeistalin7916 Being open for a second or two does not mean you should take a shot.
If youre running a set, finishing running that set. Its better an offense run consistently and properly than to play a wild card just because you can.
I dont get the idea of Stockton's offense being better. Again, were talking about around AS numbers for well over half his career. The criticism that he could do better is inane, arbitrary and a false nit pick that could be blindly applied to virtually everyone.
CP3 has a more versitile skill set and higher IQ and is an amazing floor general.
But the only time he is solidified in this leadership role is when the team around him is younger.
When his surrounding teammates are the same age or older, he gets lost at the end of games. And that seems to be the cause for his lack of post season achievements.
Whereas with Stockton and his greater post season accomplishments, everyone knew what was going to happen.... pick and roll, pick and pop, bounce and drive left only.... you knew it was comibg and yet, there was nothing you could do about it.
@@JimBob-jr5up Chris Paul is better
@@JimBob-jr5up My point is that a good offense takes what the defense gives up. If you are open for a second or 2 and you dont take the shot that means that you are hurting your team or miss positioned.
You can still run your set play and get a shot that your teammate can make at 40% rate even if contested, or you can abuse the fact that you are open to get a 50% shot or higher. Both are unstoppable, but 1 is better.
I would say Stockton achivements in the playoffs are a result or not being injured and having a player even better than him in the same team.
Like i said give CP3 15 healthy seasons with a top 5 scorer of all time on his team and he is winning championships.
Nah ox really is Tony snell 😂😂
This not even a conversation cp3 better
Casual cooked
Casual won round 1 and 2. Ox 3
John Stockton is the most overrated guard in NBA history, call me a h8ter if you want, Idgaf
How😂😅..top 5
@@trevorrobinson8652 people like you are why he is overrated he not top 5
1 guy made two finals the other made 1 I think the other is the greater winner and pg it is John
@@Dusty3967 i listen to other NBA player's say he was great.. Paul always losing in playoffs..not clutch..
@@trevorrobinson8652 other nba players say cp3 was great so that’s not a good argument and calling cp3 a loser when John Stockton played with a top 5 PF all time for his whole career and had the luxury of being a number two and was still just as much of a loser as cp3 is dumb 😂
This shouldn't be a debate but oh well.
Bulls had a death lineup on defense
Imma stay out of this cause I’m biased but shout out Johnny stockton
Ox won all 3 rounds
Casual cooked ngl
Dawg iggy was able to guard Lebron they have MORE THEN ENOUGH to contain mj 😂😂😭😭
LeBron is NOT equal to MJ. It’s not the same
@@manifgotti4886 yeah I KNOW he’s BETTER then mj !! iggy would put mj in JAIL !!! Did you forget 6ft3 GARY PAYTON held Mj to 26ppg on 40% shooting IN THE FINALS??? Gary Payton is NOT iggy!! Iggy a finals MVP way bigger way stronger way more athletic way better defender then Payton iggy is taking mjs lunch !! I shouldn’t even have to explain that mj didn’t face any alltime greats on the perimeter !!! all the great players on his era we’re BIGS so he had it easy at his position
You understand LeBron is easier to guard than Jordan right? Man to man or zone, LeBron is the easier cover
@@mybestnugget7514 no lol Jordan isn’t as good at getting to the rim, not as good a finisher, not as good a 3 point shooter and he’s miles and miles behind Lebron as a passer lebron has also been a CONSISTENT lob threat his whole Career so also better then mj that mj is only better shooting more freethrows & making more of them that’s literally the only offensive edge he has over lebron unless u consider settling for midrange jumpers (the least efficient shot in basketball) a necessary skill
People are questioning why Stocton was so adamant about being this great playmaker instead of playing like cp3 and exhibiting more of his offensive game. People are forgetting that stockton played in a different era. Why does that matter?? Because back then coaches had WAY more control over the teams style of play than now. For example, it was widely predicated that more of the offense was to go through the big man AND the 3pt line wasnt as respected back then because of the defensive rules. If a guard were to run down the court and take a couple of 3s like they do now:
1. Youre percentages are gonna look way worse therefore youd be discouraged intrinsically AND by your teammates and coach to keep doing so (i.e.: if you and everyone around you are constantly starting the game going like 1/4 back then from the 3pt line, as opposed to now shooting in an era with easier defense going 2/4, then thats a HUUUUGE difference). Therefore...
2. Consequently, most of the time the coach would sub you out back then.
Why do you think guys like Gilbert Arenas didnt get the recognition he deserved?? He pushed the boundaries and was ahead of his time because he took more control out of the hands of the coach and played a more free-flowing offense where he dictated his own shots (i remember! Fans like us were like "yo this dude is cold!!" But the older generation like the coaching staff were more traditional n didnt like it so they tried to either change his style of play or take away his minutes). So yea if you were there in REAL TIME you'd understand why stocton choose to pass up certain shots or play a particular style of basketball. That lingering thought of "ok i gotta look out for my big man" (most point guards were taught this) or "fuck, if i take this shot then coach is prob gonna retaliate somehow" was the primary way of thinking for most guards cuz thats what was imbedded into their brains. Youre not gonna realize that if you fast forward 30 years and are looking at his numbers/play style on a screen without any context behind it. So yea if Stockton played in THIS era his offensive numbers would be way more inflated due to
1. Defense obvioulsy being way softer
And
2. He would be encouraged to do things like speed down the court in open transition, and take a 3 imstead of waiting on the big man. Just this one aspect alone would open up his game DRAMATICALLY 😂
John Stockton no question, period.
Stockton easily
Easily loses
Man WTH. STOCKTON IS WAYYY BETTER AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE
John Stockton is the most overrated player of all time, and it’s not even close.
John Stockton never averaged 20ppg ever in his career. If he didn’t have Karl Malone he would be a role player lol
@@user-xb4fm5rx8h bum ass take.
@@user-xb4fm5rx8hwho cares if he didnt average above 20 points?
What does that change?
CP3 did and what did it accomplish? He couldnt even match Stockton's PO achievements.
This might be a point if we were talking half the production, but were not.
And Karl Malone, along with Ostertag, Williams, Vaughn, and all those other guys where partially products of Sloans system.
@@JimBob-jr5upand wtf did John Stockton accomplish wtf😂😂😂
Before Kawhi got hurt spurs vs warriors series the spurs were just looking like a completely better team.
Zaza changed everything
CP3.