Israel-Palestine Debate: Finkelstein, Destiny, M. Rabbani & Benny Morris | Lex Fridman Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 19 май 2024
- Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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TRANSCRIPT:
lexfridman.com/israel-palesti...
EPISODE LINKS:
Mouin's X: x.com/MouinRabbani
Mouin's Podcast: • Connections Podcast wi...
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Benny's Books: amzn.to/3Vf7NNU
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Norman's X: x.com/normfinkelstein
Norman's Website: www.normanfinkelstein.com/
Norman's Books: amzn.to/3IqouxU
Knowing Too Much (excerpt): jumpshare.com/v/8EUbbP40Do44I...
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Destiny's RUclips: / destiny
Destiny's X: x.com/TheOmniLiberal
Destiny's Subreddit: / destiny
Destiny's Website: destiny.gg
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Norman and Mouin provided additional links to supplement the discussion. See them here: sites.google.com/view/israel-...
PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
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Full episodes playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
4:42 - 1948
1:03:14 - Partition
2:07:47 - October 7
3:01:59 - Gaza
3:28:34 - Peace
4:33:18 - Hope for the future
SOCIAL:
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Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast.
Transcript: lexfridman.com/israel-palestine-debate-transcript
0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions:
- ExpressVPN: expressvpn.com/lexpod to get 3 months free
- Babbel: babbel.com/lexpod and use code Lexpod to get 55% off
- Policygenius: policygenius.com/lex
- Eight Sleep: eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings
4:42 - 1948
1:03:14 - Partition
2:07:47 - October 7
3:01:59 - Gaza
3:28:34 - Peace
4:33:18 - Hope for the future
Podcast length record breaking day.. this should be good.
the intro is litty🔥
There is no debate when it comes to genocide. Poor civilians are starving, crying in pain, and dying in horror on mass. I'm usually a fan but for yall to be well feed and rested put all this effort into nothing when it's yall with the money and influence... Shame.
Yes. What Hamas is doing is horrific and, perhaps worse is how the Muslim and Arab world could care less about the Palestinians.@@joea959
Please interview: Rabbi Elhanan Beck, George Galloway, Ilan Pappe, Christopher Bollyn, Mohammed El-Kurd (part 2)
What an unfairly set up debate. How is Norm supposed to take on Mr. Bonnell, Mr. Burnelli, Mr. Morelli, AND Mr. Borelle at the same time?!?
😅😅😅😅😅😅
He was having so much fun doing that haha
Old codger.
By running circles around him
@@Zubshady2333more like slowly floating around by the speed he’s going
Teacher: “No talking in class.”
Me and the boys in the back:
lmao
Huh?
underrated comment
You probably overestimate the quality of debates when you were at school.
@@theplouf5533he didn’t make any estimation about the debates.
Can we all agree how criminally underrated Mouin Rabbani is? I’ve never heard such a wonderfully eloquent, calm and composed speaker. It was a joy listening to him!
Exactly how I felt after watching this.
He's amazing
Nope he can’t condemn Hamas! He’s also a conspiracy theorist like Finklestein
Maybe you should listen to what hes saying instead of "how eloquent he is" when spouting bs.
@@zsoltszabo22 You just gave a point to the other side. Even Rabbani's enemies don't discredit him like that.
Every time Mr. Finkelstein said his name:
(00:02:05) Mr. Borelli
(00:33:07) Mr. Bonnell
(02:00:00) Mr. Barelli
(02:18:05) Mr. Bonnell
(02:45:18) Mr. Borelli
(02:47:45) Mr. Morelli
(02:48:15) Mr. Borelli
(02:52:43) Mr. Bonnell
(03:01:14) Mr. Burelli
(03:10:44) Mr. Bonnell
(03:12:20) Mr. Borrell
(03:17:46) Mr. Berelli
(03:18:54) Mr. Farelli
(03:19:11) Mr. Berelli
(03:21:51) Mr. Berelli
(03:24:38) Mr. Bonnell
(04:19:27)Mr. Bonnell
(04:20:42)Mr. Bonnell
(04:21:33)Destiny
(04:22:19)Mr. Bonnell
(04:23:57) Mr. Borrell
(04:24:06) Mr. Birrell
(04:26:55) Mr. Bonnell
(04:41:18) Mr. Bonnell
(04:51:40) Mr. Birrell
Thank you for your service
🤣 bravo 👏
Appreciate the levity in these dark times.
He also called him Destiny once or twice when he was heated
😂😂😂
Two historians, a journalist and a video game streamer walk into a bar...
I don’t particularly like Destiny… but he’s been putting his work and time in this.
@Sukhix05x maybe he shouldn't 😂
A discredited historian **
A Holocaust denier, a journalist, a historian and a political streamer walk into a bar
@@beansdestroyer discredited by who and why?
I'm glad that this was hosted in a 1970's airport interrogation room. Really adds to the international politics feel.
😂
Nice
Niche but excellent comment
😂
Thank you for this comment, I got more enjoyment out of it then the entire debate.
There should be a debate tactic called “Borelli’s Machine” where you drive someone insane by playing with an iPad while they are talking to you
“yOu CaNt TrUsT tHe MaChInEs!!!” - Finkelstinky.
Just wanted to point that out too
Finkelstein 0.5x
Fridman 0.75x
Rabbani 1x
Morris 1.25x
Bonnell 1.5x
What? Ah, the playback speed! 😂
Destiny: *utters a single word*
Norman: Mr. Raviolli brace yourself
Moeen Rabbani: [breathes]
Morris: [smiles coyly] that is also a red herring.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I can’t tell if it’s good or bad that he doesn’t respect him at all.
Norman did factually correct a lot of times on destiny.
Ok there are many funny comments but this is my favourite by far! XDD
How tf we have 0.5x, 0.75x 1.00x 1.25x and 1.5x speed in the same debate
Rabbani is my 1x standard here,, Morris is a little bit quicker
I’m on x2 on Finkel and it’s still too slow, once someone else interrupts I lose 5 paragraphs tho
We need a unifying speed edit
.5 speed is for when Destiny talks 1.5 speed is for when Stinklepeen talks and it's still not sped up enough lol
😂😂😂😂😂😂
The Destiny-Finkelstein dynamic is absolutely bananas.
I like scientific reasoning and expertise and all but Finkelstein straight up dismissed everything Destiny said before he even said it and only addressed Mr Morris
@@danielkist1040he let him speak the first times, including jabs at him, but he saw the BS he’s spewing so he just wanted to shut him up
Because destiny has no clue what he's talking about. He just doesn't have the credentials to be on this discussion. His the ID of zionist thought, which has value in a certain context. He has no place in a serious academic debate.
@@danielkist1040
@@ssssssssssssssssss50
And, to you, calling Destiny “Mr. Borelli” and “Mr. Bontinelli” whenever he made a refutable point, rather than responding in kind with an educated response, made Finkelstein look intelligent?
@@danielkist1040 to be fair I would to considering he's an insufferable squirrel-voiced moron who somehow insinuated himself into a debate between three people who know infinitely more about the subject than him. But then I suppose it's the best the Zionist camp could come up with.
His respect for Steven is so low he forgets his name immediately and permanently
Why he asking remedially basic questions 😂 if you think “England” was taking Jews. You might be a fuckin moron.
It's just a childish debate tactic, he's obviously not actually forgetting. As soon as they're on break he magically remembers, funny that.
It was a brutal tactic.
@lamalama9717 brutal? Maybe a brutal assassination of his own character. He did the same to everyone else present refusing to go by first names as the moderator suggested. He did this only because he wants to pretend he's above this conversation when the only thing he is above is reason
@@hughmungus9995 I'm not sure Norm had the same condescending attitude towards his academic opponent. He explained that he's more comfortable being formal in that regard, hence using the "Professor" title when addressing the interlocutor he accepts as a peer.
Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst and Destiny is a girls name.
Lmao nailed it
AMAZIN
Definitely a stripper name.
Finkelstein is just an arrogant asshole.
Perfect assessment!
Norm: "What is your name please?"
Destiny: "Steven Bonnell"
Norm: "Okay thank you Mr Burnout 3 Takedown for the PlayStation 2"
😂😂😂
The guy is delusional and senile. Give him a break.
Jajajaja
Nebraska Steve loves to get publicly humiliated lmao
Solid game. Burnout revenge was the one I played the most though .... 50 car pile ups 😅
Rabbani debates like a sharp knife. Quick, precise and cuts straight to the point. Easily the best here. Raises many imporant points. Hope he's given more time to spread the message in other media as well.
If you think Muslims today hate Jews because of Israel and Christians because of America, you have been completely brainwashed.. I copied and paste just a few verses directly from the Quran. Take a look. Source: The Qur’an:
“0 ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another: And whoso among you takes them for friends is indeed one of them. Verily, Allah guides not the unjust people”
“Among the Jews are some who take words out of context, and say, “We hear and we disobey”, and “Hear without listening”, and “Observe us,” twisting with their tongues and slandering the religion.”
“Due to wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We forbade them good things that used to be lawful for them; and for deterring many from Allah’s path.”
“You will find that the people most hostile towards the believers are the Jews and the polytheists.”
“For the Jews We forbade everything with claws. As of cattle and sheep: We forbade them their fat, except what adheres to their backs, or the entrails, or what is mixed with bone. This is how We penalized them for their inequity”
“The Jews said, “Ezra is the son of Allah,” and the Christians said, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.” These are their statements, out of their mouths. They emulate the statements of those who blasphemed before. May Allah assail them! How deceived they are!”
“Ask the Children of Israel how many clear signs We have given them. Whoever alters the blessing of Allah after it has come to him-Allah is severe in retribution.”
But remember we are told the Quran/Islam is a peaceful, loving, accepting religion 😂 as a person whose read the Quran 3 times, in speaking to many Muslims, I can assure you all, that majority of Muslims have not read the Quran themselves not even once! What a racist vile book! Truly is.
By the way, the Quran mentions Israel 43x, The Quran mentions Palestine 0x. But remember brainwashed Jihadis in 2024 want you to believe that “the jews colonized Arabs”. The Arab Caliphate is the 5th biggest colonizing empire in HUMAN HISTORY!! The Arabs are originally only from the Arabian Peninsula (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Kuwait) but yet society has everyone brainwashed to think Arabs are somehow also native to the Levant (Israel, Lebanon, Syria) and North Africa (Morocco, Algeria , Tunisia, Libya, Egypt)! 5th biggest colonization empire in HUMAN HISTORY! Those are the fact!
I like that he is soft spoken and articulate...but he can't shake his extremism...he mumbled Anwar Sadat (the Egyptian PM who made peace with Israel) SHOULD have been assassinated...that's like wait...WHAT?!
rabanni was awful and refuses to answer any quesiton
@@itryesitr8053well that’s clearly false to anyone who watched the video.
@@itryesitr8053 Taking the time to explain the context of a biased question before anwsering can only be seen as a refusal to anwser by a goldfish with the memory of 3 seconds that can't even concentrate on watching a tiktok dance...
Man it's really shocking how towards the end the right side of the table were repeatedly saying that international law doesn't matter.
At the start of the debate they were very keen to explain that Israel's actions in Gaza are congruent with international law, but by the end they simply said "well international law doesn't matter who cares if collective punishment is a war crime"
It was a really insightful look at just how quickly they were willing to openly drop all concern about international law the second it didn't help their case
i wish there was more dialogue in the world and less "debates" that focus solely on scoring points . People forgot what dialogue means and how important it is
The people on the left are so concerned with International law that they explicitly support the Houthis attacking civilian ships.
"With all due respect, you're such* a fantastic moron."
😂 that one caught me off guard.
Y u no put timestamp?
Lol.
It shouldn’t. Thats all finkelstein ever does
Yeah, what a great “counter argument”
its in the intro dw@@segasys1339
Norm Finkelstein: ‘What is your name, please?’
Destiny: ‘Steven Bonnell’
Norm: ‘Ok, thank you Mr. Burnelli’
Loved it 😂
i heard borrelli hahah
wtf is this lol, 3 actually kinda important people worth listening to and then theres this unwashed looking double divorced weirdo lmao
😂 Mr. Bostiolli
😂Thank you Mr. Boselli
It's very weird to watch Destiny, who admittedly has only researched the topic for a few months, *constantly* ask Norm, who has spent literal decades on this topic, if he knows what he's talking about or has read the relevant material.
Like he'll throw out a point and then immediately follow it up with "have you read the case? Are you dumb norm? Could you even point to Israel on a map???" which is utterly unprofessional and just deeply silly when talking to someone who you know for a fact knows the topic better than you do. You can disagree with his conclusions but pretending he's not well read is ludicrous
This debate would have been more intellectually advanced (probably not as entertaining) if they had another academic/knowledgeable person to contribute on this topic instead of a video streamer who can’t sit still.
Yet mr frankenstein couldn’t answer half his questions
I love how Finkelstein spent the entire first half of the debate quoting Benny Morris at Benny Morris
Morris really couldn't come back he just blustered
let me quote you yourself from my own book
@@Ajsopranosrubberduxsuree buddy. Go read the actual content of the quotes that norm casually takes out of context and you just gulp it up like a good boy
@@alejammi I've read Righteous Victims...
@@Ajsopranosrubberdux with the reading comprehension of a toad apparently
Mr. Bonnell x17
Mr. Barelli x1
Mr. Borelli x2
Mr. Morelli x1
Mr. Berelli x4
Mr. Borrell x2
in case you were wondering
😂
😂😂
😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂😂
So why is Destiny there? This is like inviting some middle schooler, who isn't even a good student, to speak in a math convention.
Hes there to bring some actual sense, thats what the debate indicates
He’s a large voice for people on the Jewish side, he’s pretty well versed in the history of Israel/Palestine
@@Primoemo999 Lmao. No he isn't, and No he isn't .
@@Primoemo999no hes not 💀
@@Primoemo999 Zionist, not Jewish. A lot of Jewish people disagree with his horrendous takes.
In fact, conflating Zionism with Judaism is inherently antisemitic and bigoted.
The fact that I did not hear of Mouin Rabbani till watching this debate is sinfully insane! What a brilliant, agile mind with great patience!
Nightmare blunt rotation
LOL
So true
xDDD
Without finkelstein it might be a fun blunt rotation lol
😂😂😂
"It is called attaching VALUE to WORDS, Mr. Banjo-Kazooie"
I choose my words very carefully, Mr. Majooki
I read this comment this morning and have been laughing about it all day. Thanks for that.
@@sethdhanson same - it really cracked me up
Finkelstein has severe dementia.
I kept thinking "Do names not apply to your rationale on your superior intellect..."
This debate is equivalent to 3 Mr. Olympias going to the gym with a guy who just got his planet fitness membership 2 weeks ago.
That is AWESOME!
Yet somehow 1 of the Mr. Olympias drops a weight on his own head.
Oh my god yes!!!
@@Lemmyywinkz To be honest I kind of get where he's coming from. Like, he spent about 50 years studying the subject and now has to engage with someone who studied it for 3 weeks and keeps interrupting him and sharing incredibly simplistic talking points on the subject, that's got to be frustrating.
Like, I study electrical engineering, if I was in a seminar talking about Q-learning vs. Proximal Policy Optimization for control of robotic arms, and someone came in and kept saying "that's great an all, but I think it's important to note that you can write code to control all sorts of robots!", I wouldn't want to engage with him, I'd want him to shut up and let the adults talk.
I don't know if I'd call Destiny a Mr. Olympia, but yes, Norm acted like a brain-damaged person 😉
Whenever lex speaks in the opening of an episode it feels like listening to a video recording of some guy from the future warning us about some catastrophe that is about to happen for the ones in the present
Brilliant
Norm: What's your name?
Destiny: Steven Bonnell
Norm: Thank you, Limoncello
I love that 100+ comments exactly like this showed up days after its initial release, indicating that this it isn't an organic thought but instead regurgitation from Destiny reviewing the video on stream. Especially because he correctly responded with "Bonnell" in response to Destiny's reply, proving it's a completely fabulized deflection.
@@GreyKnight7777This was published today was it not?
@@GreyKnight7777 He's such a grown up baby for miscalling his name the entire time but when he thought the camera went off he was like "Mr Bonnell", what a slimey little smug Finklestein is.
@@GreyKnight7777 you love that comments came after people actually watched the 5 hour video, rather than commenting 5 min after upload or memeing about twitter clips taken out of context? You're really going out on a limb there GayNight666
@@samuelc.7212 It was not.
I fell asleep watching this and woke up at 2AM angry in the middle of an arguement.
😭😭😭😭
i fell asleep and woke up in the middle of finklestein trying to take destiny's kid away from him
@@aSSGoblin1488yeah, cause norms a humanitarian. just seeing destiny on the internet is abuse, imagine the psychic trauma of having to interact with him in real life and knowing that he's your father. yikes!
Lol 😂
same here
Morris "You like to quote things"
Norm "It's called facts"
Im a single mother of three in a small town in South America and it has taking me three days to watch through half of the video. And it has been worth it all the way!
I have known about professor Finkelstein since I saw him talking in a danish tv show. We were hundreds of thousands that left there homes to live in exile, due to the many dictatorships in our continent, and there are still many organizations and groups that work in solidarity with the people of Palestina. Thank you @alexfridman for letting small people like me, take part of what big minds think.
Regarding the content, I wonder why suddenly the international community (like UN and all the orgs and agreements exposed here) are irrelevant. They seem to have been played a major role in the creation of the state of israel, but then not important when they had to keep the requirements of the same agreement.
This person called Destiny (?), talks so fast, like he is step-dancing over history, also with a familiar cold attitude, the same adapted by those who refer to dead children as "casualties of war". So, maybe this whole table can agree on that the life of a civilian has been dehumanized (yes, here too). How much does it matter if it was 500 or 50 thousand, when only one is already too many and israel has crossed the line for what was imaginable for any modern society, or so called democracy. Either their leaders are highly guarded by more powerful people that themselves, and thats why they stay in power, or jewish people are just as selfish and moraly corrupted as they have been blamed for. How can human life (actually, life in general), be just a number that go up and down (like the exchange rate chart presented by Bassem Youssef). This makes me think about this program with John Steward at the Daily Show, and the famous frase "if you think like a human". Maybe we should just stop talking war-language. What about a table with activists that work - in the field - for peace achievements between the resident people in the area. Are they able to see any hope?
Im on h4:23 and wonder why this dude, Destiny was invited. He has obviously not the same level of knowledge about this cause.
you have the best take of the comments ive read through so far
In every single war since history of men there has been casualties. Innocent people die during war. That is a fact, we try now to decrease casualties as much as possible but they still happen. Acting as if this won’t ever happen during arm conflict is unrealistic.
Lo de Israel es lo mismo que pasó en su momento en Alemania en los 30s-40s. Los alemanos, así como tampoco los judíos, son seres malvados y corruptos. Ambos casos son la consecuencia de actores reaccionarios con demasiado poder, que a su vez radicalizan a sus respectivas sociedades. No dudes que muchos israelitas ven a los musulmanes como subhumanos.
Pero lo peor de todo es que a occidente le conviene tener ahí a Israel, así que les venden armas y protegen para que estos funcionen de faro en el medio oeste, con potencias en desarrollo como Irán. Al final todo esto es causado por occidente, que mandó y financió a seres viles para que vayan a matar y robar tierras. En esos tiempos de finales de los 40 y 50s habían autenticos escuadrones de la muerte israelitas en busca de palestinos que matar.
Saludos desde Paraguay!! Suerte, que está compleja la situación en nuestro contienente también.
Lo de Israel es lo mismo que pasó en su momento en Alemania en los 30s-40s. Los alemanos, así como tampoco los judíos, son seres malvados y corruptos. Ambos casos son la consecuencia de actores reaccionarios con demasiado poder, que a su vez radicalizan a sus respectivas sociedades. No dudes que muchos israelitas ven a los musulmanes como subhumanos.
Pero lo peor de todo es que a occidente le conviene tener ahí a Israel, así que les venden armas y protegen para que estos funcionen de faro en el medio oeste, con potencias en desarrollo como Irán. Al final todo esto es causado por occidente, que mandó y financió a seres viles para que vayan a matar y robar tierras. En esos tiempos de finales de los 40 y 50s habían autenticos escuadrones de la muerte israelitas en busca de palestinos que matar.
Saludos desde Paraguay por cierto.
I already know I'm gonna need a cigarette for this
I dont even smoke
Me neither... I rolled 4 blunts. Cheers
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Hah
You do now, buddy...you do now.
@@RocketGator05two minutes in and im on my fifth blunt
Where the heck did the time go? Can't believe I allowed my blood pressure to fluctuate for 5 hours 😂
Lol
All those Laughing laughing.is zionist propaganda
Agree. Totally engaging discussion. Grueling 5 hours revealed truth- the story of two unfortunate nations. The West is doing injustice to both of them.
According to my watch I just completed my most intensive workout of the past 12 months. Also, it is telling me to contact my physician.
Finklestien is HALARIOUS😂😂😂
“I will even answer moron’s question” has me in tears every time 😂 2:46:07
Resorting to foul language really speaks volumes about his side of the story
@@stefangreve7983keep coping
@@MohsinAli-jt5rk Thus, further proving my point that there is no merit to the Palestinian cause.
@@stefangreve7983 the word moron is foul language now🤣i wonder what you have to say about destiny being extremely vulgar and also insulting in so many of his debates
Doesn't make any of his arguments invalid. Sorry bro@@stefangreve7983
Thank You for this lengthy, expansive debate/ discussion. Very illuminating.
I died when finklestein said “I don’t use those machines” in regards to a phone hahahahaha
You might be interested to know that he doesn't have a cell phone of his own. He uses a landline lol
@@billybitchcakes8611he should use a landmine, or nvm his walking speed probably wouldnt activate it anyways
he read a book about it, he good@@billybitchcakes8611
I think he meant the ipad
Trying to explain to a man military aviation hierarchy and process when he doesent even own a phone
shout out to my homies who not only watched the whole debate but did so at normal speed
I'm afraid you're in league of your own if you didnt keep on switching speeds depending on who was speaking.
@@davidmelamed2774nah you need the whole range. It cant all be the same. It's like different textures on a sandwich.
@@davidmelamed2774No he’s not.
I think it best normal speed all the way.
it is a perfect video for someone trying to build a mega city on city skylines@@davidmelamed2774
This needed way more mediation than it got. Conversations were completely de-railed and became personal.
Yes, thank you! At some point I couldn’t tolerate Finkelstein’s screaming, cutting people, silencing, the disrespect. It was too much and unprofessional.
If norm and destiny were gone it would have been way informative .
@@kathrynmoore2370if destiny were gone it would’ve been fine. You can tell the three educated men respect each other, but Norm could not stand Destiny’s self righteous, know it all, disrespectful attitude about a subject which he clearly knows significantly less about.
@@Paulie_Geelie norm just started yelling so you couldn’t hear destiny every time he asked a question norm didn’t want to answer😂
The amount of cope in these comments is rough
@@aygunsamedova1083norm couldn’t even get a sentence out
A person - or is he binary, his media name is Destiny - who says reading books is a waste of time has no place at a debate table. He was totally out of his depth.
Finkelstein: What's your name?
Destiny: Bonnell
Finkelstein: OK. Thank you, Mr. Vermicelli
😂😂
Destiny is a lot like Vermicelli
🤣
Don't mention it, Mr. Frankenstein
the irony are tho despite how many times he got that name wrong, thats propably what i had least issues with. for someone that uses a terms like international law so many times its absurd how little he know about it, and someone like finkelstein should really know that UN and its resolutions are simply political opinions and have nothing to do with international law, or any other laws for that matter. the only exception are resolutions under chapter 7 given by the security council, but those are so rarely used i think last time was in the ballpark of 2005 or something regarding something that happened in lebanon. its allso absurd how he state that the israeli settlements are not legal according to international law, yet theres nothing in that law that actual in any way say they are illegal
“Don’t change the subject, Mr Spaghetti!”
hahahaha
I find it strange that Finkelstein sees himself as a rigerous academic, based on all of the criticisms he throws out, but half of his arguments against destiny are ad-hominem. It is a bad look.
@@FarvaU23 well to be fair, Destiny was being a motormouth
@@AG-gp1kd ikr he should have rather grandstanded for 30 minutes
@@FarvaU23because he’s fighting the dehumanisation of of a people. I think another person would feel the same heating and upset someone justifying the holocaust
Every single second of this almost five hours ! of inteligent debate it's worth it. Thank you so much for spill some light over the mysts that surround us everywhere.
Thanks for this debate Lex! Like always, those conversations I think are what we should do more instead of acts of war which we should do less.
This free type of debate was nice. I would also like to see another format where debaters would have some clear goals in mind. Being on the same page with common starting goals could have beneficial outcome on the conversation and could make debaters more likely to work with each other to find a solution instead of getting defensive. Understanding the intentions of each individual from the beginning would also help me as a viewer understand their reasonings better. Lack of this common goal brought a lot of context switching which surely got a lot of brain fuel from them. Maybe breaks (hours or even a day) could also help regarding this in order to keep system 2 running for them and not have to deal with system 1's not-beneficial responses.
Despite my constructive feedback, it is very nice to watch such conversations and debates and I learned a lot from how you let this one unfold!
Can we have a reupload of this debate but having a 5 hour long shot of Lex to see his facial reactions during the debate?
Lex doesn't have facial expressions lol first time here?
Willing to pay for it 😂😂
I'd subscribe to a patron for that cut. It'd be like watching the saddest, slowest tennis match ever, but I'd watch with buttered popcorn and a coke.
No expressions from hitman 47
😐😐😐😐😐
⏱Timestamps for this video!
2:37 - Purpose of the Debate
5:04 - Discussion on 1948
16:50 - Arab rejection of partition and launch of war
21:27 - Historical significance of 1948
37:05 - Discussion on the Arab resistance to Zionism
41:09 - Analysis of expulsion and transfer policies
49:11 - Analysis of transfer in Zionist ideology
56:09 - Impact of Zionism on Israel's development
1:00:56 - Herzl's Vision for a Liberal Democratic Jewish State
1:03:36 - Palestinian Rejection of the Partition Resolution
1:14:05 - Zionism and the Minority
1:16:36 - Population Expulsion and War
1:29:16 - Security and Rights for Both Communities
1:35:00 - Forced Immigration and Exchange of Populations
1:38:41 - Examining the history of Jewish-Arab relations
1:46:17 - Addressing claims of apartheid and Palestinian responsibility
1:53:44 - Benny's changing opinions
1:54:41 - British policy in Palestine
2:05:22 - Blame on countries for not accepting Jewish refugees
2:08:05 - Discussion on Hamas actions and ideology
2:21:00 - Morality of Palestinian resistance
2:25:13 - Demand for condemnation in conflicts
2:29:22 - International condemnation and support
2:31:27 - Double standards in portrayal of conflicts
2:42:16 - False equivalency of military actions
2:48:34 - UN findings on civilian targeting
2:50:15 - Policy of killing civilians
2:56:40 - Strike cells and civilian casualties
3:00:04 - Political Constraints and Nuclear Weapons
3:01:16 - Genocide Allegations in Gaza
3:12:24 - President Isaac Herzog's Statement
3:16:09 - South Africa's Case and Expertise
3:24:31 - Atrocities in the '48 war
3:28:17 - Historical peace negotiations
3:34:53 - Missed Opportunity for Peace
3:36:04 - Feasibility of Two-State Settlement
3:49:00 - 2000-2001 Negotiations Overview
3:50:12 - Israeli Proposals and International Law
4:02:39 - Debate on the Meaning of Palestinian Recognition
4:08:02 - Historical Debate on Palestinian Acceptance of Two-State Solution
4:14:48 - Need for strong Palestinian leadership
4:18:13 - Inadmissibility of territorial acquisition by force
4:24:26 - Lack of good faith in negotiations
4:25:20 - Israel's refusal to concede Palestinian rights
4:35:02 - Bleak Situation
4:39:02 - Humanitarian Crisis
4:46:16 - Discussion on Apartheid
4:47:02 - Treadmill of Euphemisms
4:55:26 - Discussion on the movie "Battleship Potemkin" or "Mother
4:56:21 - Importance of writing the truth about historical events
🧙♂✨ Generated with Houdini Chrome extension.
Nobody cares about these timestamps. We only want timestamps of every time Finkelstein tries to say Destiny's name.
EDIT: To those complaining, this is pure sarcasm.
@@OBZ I'm sorry what was your name again, was it Density?
ty
@@OBZ People who care about the content, appreciate the timestamps, you simpleton.
@@ControlledBalance lol relax, I'm being sarcastic
“Mr…. Bonnell. Don’t change the subject.” 😂😂😂😂
How could i say such thing in this situation but glad that i have pleasure to watch Mouin Rabbani this man must be example for every debate discourse
I know right, guy was so well spoken
The only thing I learned from this debate is that Norm can talk fast if hes adequately motivated to do so
Lol. I noticed that too. Go Norm!
Slow or fast it's nonsense in any case
Norm can only talk fast on two occasions, ad hominem attacks or when he is speaking over someone else 😂
But he likes to take his time when explaining Mr. Pirelli's imbecility.
@@mintviper5213 no wonder he talked so fast, so often
This made me nostalgic for Thanksgiving dinner
😂😂😂
😂 thanks for bringing in humor among such tough stuff.
@@janetfox-petersen2790 It’s really not that funny. Especially not for the natives of the land🤷🏽♂️
Marvellous, thanks for posting and giving so much time to this subject. The single most informative discussion that I've come across. Not sure what Steven Bonnell added to things though. I'm with Norm.
Tell me you didn't watch the debate without telling me.
Norm was embarrassing in this debate, and he’s supposed to be your best so called “scholar”. Embarrassing, embarrassing, embarrassing!
@@Paulmesolikey How is he embarrassing?
@@aymanabd5861 he misquotes others a lot, his arguments are based on books HE wrote, he couldn't answer question from a blue haired gamer and instead used ad hominem attacks to discredit. He also claims to be a historian but anyone can claim that, he's a political scientist. also I can't take him seriously cause he complains about Israel but doesn't give solutions (I heard him say that for peace to happen Israel must draw all of it's troops and lay down their arms - super unrealistic for someone who is a so called "expert"). generally very childish and entitled behavior, he's also arguing from authority i.e. "I've read 1000 books i know more than you" kind of argument. all of this behavior is not scholarly it's just another populist trying to earn money on the backs of REAL people suffering.
Imagine being on the side that says international law doesn’t matter. Yeesh.
That part near the end was pretty baffling. Some real lone wolves here
Finkelstein supports any non Western state breaking international laws. He explicitly says so for the Houthis for example in this conversation.
@@theartfuldodger8609 exactly, both sides are hypocrites. But the way Norman has conducted himself in this debate was outright embarrassing for the pro Palestinian argument. After all it’s the best “scholar” they have to offer, if destiny was so wrong it would be easy for a person who read 1000+ books on the topic to refute him. Instead he used ad hominem and somehow people buy this bs. And it’s all because he’s on the side of Palestinians, the tribalism surrounding this topic is extensive
@theartfuldodger8609 that's an area where I disagree with Finklestein. However his position is more, "I support the breaking of SOME international laws in the name of stopping even WORSE violators of international law." Which is far more nuanced and defensible than you make it out to be. That's far better than saying "international law doesn't matter because it doesn't hold us accountable." While you actively murder and displace millions of people.
Lex: "what gives you hope"
Norm Finkelstein: ‘"There is no hope, no"
Lex: *GASP*
4:33:52
Jee whiz
Lex’s can’t go deep and this shows his naivety. He thinks a dialogue with adversaries, will solve all major issues with humanity. Lex, if you care, then give your opinion on the matter! I would love to hear it after bringing in many guests from both sides and if you actually paid any attention.
Lex seems to think that every conflict is just a huge misunderstanding and a few kind words will have everyone singing kumbaya by the end
he is a very positive character, isn’t he?
Just grateful someone is hosting long form debates. So sick of 5 minute snippets
We need more channels like this top notch quality content and free speech
I just don't know what we get from it? A consensus? A solution? Both sides are sticking to their views and haven't changed. It's a debate for the sake of it.
@@GK-qc5ryIt gives a good reflection of where the conflict is at.
@@GK-qc5ryYou’re supposed to draw your own conclusions and see the good and bad in their argument. It’s a small snippet in your own research
@@GK-qc5ryThe point of debates like this is not to persuade the other person, it's to persuade the audience that follow them. Neither side was ever going to convince the other that they're wrong, especially not in a public debate where reputation matters, but at the very least they can introduce ideas to the people who watch the other side
Woof, once they start talking about Oct 7, the right side of the table becomes especially irritating.
They got so deranged when it sounds like norm and mouin are NOT condemning h*mas while simultaneously defending an army that is literally committing a plausible genocide
3:26:35 idk why but this moment of Benny saying "You do talk quickly, you know?" to Destiny is so cute lol
Gay ass comment
Destiny: *breaths*
Norm: Mr. Cannoli PLEASE
😂
*Palpatine force powers* ✋️
yeah, Norm is a loser with no knowledge 😂
Lol
Same.
Ive never seen so many people excited for a 5 hours debate and i love it
I think everyone- no matter who you demonize- really is scratching and clawing for anything to latch onto as a mechanism for seeing the horror end
“Israel is a settler colonial project that is nearing its end, as colonial projects reach their final phase become more brutal and ruthless.” ~ Ilan Pape The Jewish Professor
“We are witnessing the end of Zionism, which is the most dangerous stage because it fights for survival, very cruel and violent. It is the darest stage in the history of Palestine. But it’s the pre-dawn darkness!” ~ Ilan Pape The Jewish Professor
« We cannot understand October 7th without knowing History.» ~ Shlomo Sand (Jewish historian)
« Ahmad Yassine, founder of Hamas, was born near Ashkelon, also pushed with his family to Gaza by Israel.
To refuse to see that 60% of Gazans came from the places where Israelis now live is to be blind. We cannot understand October 7th without knowing History.» ~ Shlomo Sand (Jewish historian)
"The continuation of Israel’s crimes in GAZA and the continued American support with weapons may give a feeling for a moment that evil has triumphed, and that defeating it is impossible, but this is not true and Israel will be defeated and surrender in the end.” ~ The American journalist JT Chapman
“The actions of the Palestinian Movement in October 7 are neither a terrorist attack nor an anti-Semitic attack, but an act of armed resistance and an uprising after decades of colonization.” ~ Judith Butler, American philosopher
“Hamas will be able to resist Israel for years.” - US intelligence community IC
“The war showed how difficult it is to eliminate an organization rooted in the civilian population.” - US intelligence community IC
“Distrust of Netanyahu’s ability to govern runs deep among Israelis, We expect large protests demanding his resignation and the formation of a different, more moderate government.” - US intelligence community IC
Without shoes and no modern weapons , without tanks and no F16 , without help of the NATO, without mercenaries and under unprecedent siege for more than 75 years , Palestinians are making history
on the other hand the genocidaires of I0F have all of the above, and have achieved nothing of their objectives for 5 months in GAZA which is only 2 square meters, I have just understood the meaning of heroism and cowardice too
@@ProjectileGrommet
If this is the case, they aren't seeing everything for what it is. US is 100% bought by lobbyists is the reality. No way of rationalizing out of that reality.
@@ProjectileGrommet
Mr destiny said he don't believe Palestinian Gazan kids are kids with Prof, Mark lemot
bonus content
Finklestein got so mad he tried/trying to take other people's children by calling CPS. oh yeah... this is a thing that happened at least two times.
Destiny ""forget facts"
Benny "forget international law"
Lex "forget written quotes from Benny"'
Sleep paralysis; it is like an emotional checkmate I feel listening to these gentlemen debating their perspectives on what has to be one of the most complex and complicated subjects on the planet, all the while speaking past each other, being unable and at times unwilling to sympathize/empathize with their interlocutor(s).
"Mr. Harry Vermicelli did you throw your name into the Goblet of Fire" Finkelstein said calmly
i'm wheezing
lmao, nailed it, who recast wise/calm Finkelstein with this angry old dude?
Maaaan, cuuudos, cuuuuuudos :)
😂😂😂
😂
Unfair that Mr. Burnelli was allowed to bring his machine to this debate
Haha... Finkelstein had his abacus 🧮
Finkelstein has never owned a cell phone. So that's where that's coming from. His Twitter was set up by students, and he basically writes down statements that they tweet on his behalf.
@@TheTMKF incredible that a renowned "historian" on the topic is rattled by an ipad XD really tells you a lot
@@Ookalaable if by rattled you mean confused by destiny's lack of rebuttal to the actual substance being discussed and continually bringing up reddit talking points that no one in this room ever mentioned, then yes he was rattled af.
@@julie-mt2xr"reddit talking points"
This helped me begin to understand better and think about the problem differently. Thank you Lex ❤
“With all due respect, you’re such a fantastic moron” is a delightful new entry into my brain.
He's so catty
used it on my coworker...... he thought I was joking.
@@EricG-bv2ui if you weren't, then you're likely an ass
The most embarrassing part is when destiny defends what he cant lol the spokespeople admitted to genocide and their intent to genocide with their own mouths during public speeches. Just yesterdays news more UN workers dead after handing out water yes I’m sure it was an accident.
Ad Hominem arguments are always a show of a winning side.
Norm: What's your name?
Destiny: Steven Bonnell.
Norm: Thank you, Mr Babadook
Guy doesn't even know the names of his opponents walking into a formal debate??
Total lack of respect.
@@JD..........no, only ones with beta male names. Bonelli? What are you? A pasta?
how do you consider yourself? how would you matchup in the debate? Watch you words, kid.@@Srfs777
@@Beissi-nb9hi easy there noodles , can’t punch through a message board.
@@TrutheyneskyBrilliant! Has a de nero feel to it!😂
Almost 60 000 comments!! This is what a dialectic debate looks like. Lex Fridman keep it up. !!!!!
Sat through that in one 5 hour session. Forget the short selective clips. It doesn't give it justice. Great debate.
Superbowl for nerds part 2, thank you grandpa Lex!
This is not about needs.
😂😂😂😂😂
After watching the whole debate in 50x speed I can confidently say my side won.
Destiny thinks Egypt borders Russia
😂
Lex: “hypothetically we find a peaceful solution, how do we get there?”
The room: *20 minutes of screeching*
Meine Damen und Herren, Bürger und Bürgerinnen dieser Erde.
An die 2 Völker palestina und Israel. verehrte Mitglieder der internationalen Gemeinschaft, sowie Vertreter der israelischen Regierung,
es ist an der Zeit, nicht nur Worte zu sprechen, sondern Taten zu zeigen. Es ist an der Zeit, dass das israelische Volk und seine Regierung den Charakter zeigen, der sie auszeichnet: einen Charakter von Menschlichkeit, Gerechtigkeit und Versöhnung. In einer Zeit, in der wir nach so vielen Jahren der Unterdrückung und des Leids stehen, ist es an der Zeit, dass wir uns der Vergangenheit stellen und die Zukunft gemeinsam gestalten.
**Erklärung der Initiative:**
Einführung eines alle Regierungen zum Schutz des vom Notstand betroffenen Volk verpflichtet. Wenn wir etwas aus dem Holocaust gelernt haben sollten. Ist es, das damals das jüdisch Volk auf die internationale Gemeinschaft angewiesen war. Einmischung von Aussen auf Hitlers Genozid. Wardie einzige Chance war dem blinden Hass und der entmenschlichung einhalt zu gebieten. Und das aus Vernunft. Aus Pflicht. Und um die 'VÖLKERVIELFALT dem interesse des einzelnen Volkes entgegenzustellen. Ein Staat gegen VÖLKERVIELFALT ist ein unrechtmässiger Staat. nationaler rassentheorien unterworfen.
Initiative Notstand Palstina
Die Initiative zur vorübergehenden Rechtssicherung der palästinensischen Interessen und Bi but v Menschenrechte vor der internationalen Gemeinschaft ist ein Schritt, der unmissverständlich klarstellt, dass das palästinensische Volk Anspruch auf eine politische Vertretung hat, die ihre Rechte in vollem Umfang wahrnehmen und verteidigen kann. Es geht hier um mehr als nur Prinzipien; es geht um die Wiederherstellung der Würde und Gerechtigkeit für jeden einzelnen Palästinenser.
**Argumentation gegen eine Zwei-Staaten-Lösung:**
Die Propagierung einer Zwei-Staaten-Lösung ist eine Beleidigung für jeden Palästinenser und Israeli gleichermaßen. Eine solche Lösung würde lediglich die Mauern des Gefängnisses verschieben, ohne die grundlegenden Ungerechtigkeiten zu beseitigen. Jeder Palästinenser verdient genau die gleichen Rechte und Sicherheiten wie ein Israeli, einschließlich eines israelischen Passes und eines effektiven Schutzes seiner Interessen vor Gericht.
**Darlegung der Grundrechte:**
1. **Menschenwürde und Schutz vor Diskriminierung:** Jeder einzelne Palästinenser verdient Respekt und Würde, frei von Diskriminierung und Unterdrückung. Die Vergangenheit hat gezeigt, dass diese Würde oft verletzt wurde, doch es ist an der Zeit, sie wiederherzustellen.
2. **Recht auf Freiheit und Gleichheit:** In einer Zwei-Staaten-Lösung wäre die Gleichheit nicht gegeben, da die ökonomischen und sozialen Disparitäten weiter bestehen würden. Jeder Palästinenser sollte die gleichen Chancen und Freiheiten genießen wie ein Israeli.
3. **Recht auf körperliche Unversehrtheit und Sicherheit:** Die Sicherheit der Palästinenser kann nur durch eine umfassende Lösung gewährleistet werden, die ihre volle Integration und Gleichberechtigung gewährleistet. Eine Zwei-Staaten-Lösung würde diese Sicherheit nicht garantieren.
4. **Schutz der Familie und Recht auf Versammlungsfreiheit:** Die Familien der Palästinenser verdienen Schutz vor Gewalt und Repression, sowie das Recht, sich frei zu versammeln und politisch zu organisieren.
5. **Recht auf gleiche Chancen und wirtschaftliche Stabilität:** Eine Zwei-Staaten-Lösung würde keine gerechten Chancen für die palästinensische Bevölkerung schaffen, sondern sie weiterhin benachteiligen. Jeder Palästinenser verdient die gleichen wirtschaftlichen Möglichkeiten wie ein Israeli.
**Schlussfolgerung:**
Es ist an der Zeit, dass wir uns gemeinsam der Vergangenheit stellen und die Fehler der Geschichte korrigieren. Es ist an der Zeit, dass das israelische Volk und seine Regierung zeigen, dass sie ein Volk von Menschlichkeit und Gerechtigkeit sind. Eine Zwei-Staaten-Lösung ist keine Option mehr, sondern eine gerechte und umfassende Lösung, die die Rechte und Würde jedes einzelnen Palästinensers respektiert und schützt.
Lasst uns gemeinsam diesen Weg der Versöhnung und des Friedens gehen, denn nur gemeinsam können wir eine Zukunft gestalten, die auf den Prinzipien von Gerechtigkeit, Gleichheit und Menschlichkeit basiert.
Damals entschied sich eine Familie nicht gegen Israel in den Krieg zu ziehen sondern sich im neugegründeten Staat Israel niederzulassen und mit den Israelis in Frieden zu leben. Nach der Zeit unter dem Briten sahen sie trotz aller Gefahren auch eine Chance. Diese Chance besteht bis zum heutigen Tag. Wir können bekämpfen oder ergänzen. Hassen oder Lieben. Wollen wir uns auf ewig bekriegen oder ewigen Frieden. Als Abu Gosh haben wir die Pflicht darauf hinzuweisen das unserer Völker ein Volk. Unsere Blüter ein Blut. Und unsere Götter sind der eine Gott und es gibt keinen Gottes ausser Gott. Versöhnung. Vergebung Wiedervereinigung. Wiedergutmachung. Integration. Das sie die Wörter die wir lieben als Geschöpfe des Schöpfers.
Annnerkennung für Annnerkennung. Jeder palestinänser und jeder Jude dieser Erde. Haben das Recht den Staat Israel anzuerkennen und sich im Staat Israel niederzulassen. Gemeinsam sind wir der Beweis das es einen Gott gibt. Getrennt.. Beschämend wir die Welt, Gott und uns selbst. Und können immer mit dem Finger auf den anderen zeigen.
Anerkennung für Anerkennung jeder präsenzer soll für sich selber entscheiden und wenn er sich dazu entscheidet den israelischen Staat anzuerkennen dann soll der israelische Staat ihm im Gegenzug israelische Staatsbürgerschaft geben und alle Rechte die dazu gehören und ihm in Israel willkommen heißen als Bruder. Lässt uns den Grundstein zur größten Bruderschaft setzen die je auf Erden gewandelt ist. Den Eck Pfeiler.
Di 27.februar 2024
Sami David Karl Abu Gosh
Lex is a hippie wearing a suit, the point is u can't
Lex's unwillingness to see reality because of his forced optimism is a little tiresome sometimes. I listened to his interview with Mohammad El-Kurd today and he was willfully ignoring El-Kurd's position constantly because he wanted to hear him give a Palestinian rendition of "I have a dream" while there are settlers in his mother's garden
@@Ed-zp2xo let the jews have there little country i say.
@@Ed-zp2xo Lex optimism bothers me as well. For example in interview with a Islam-promoting guy named "Omar", more like a politician doing PR treatment for Islam, Lex failed to critically even touch any of Omar's statements, which not only came off as unprepared, but ignorant as well. Omar went on giving all the stock Islam apologist statements, which with how eloquent Omar is made Islam look like it has no faults and no controversy. I find this unacceptable. Its as if a N4zi came in on a podcast sugarcoating their "ideology" and it was the interviewer's 1st ever contact with that ideology and does zero pushing and questioning of the ideology.
its his blind spot but honestly i feel like it must be addressed otherwise he's not growing as an interviewer. and i'm getting too old for slimy propaganda interviews.
One of my favourite parts of this discussion is Benny Morris laughing and giggling in the corner whenever Finkelstein insults Destiny.
Copium overdose
Well if it's facts it's not a insult he's trusted resource was Wikipedia he didn't have the knowledge to sit on that table
@@rzjustice1994 this really is not an argument, and it's not true. He read a bunch of the geneva convention, at least 1 or 2 books in full and a bunch of human rights organization + UN reports as parts of the prep. But besides this, there's nothing wrong with wikipedia, it has a bunch of true stuff on it. Address an incorrect point. Just one. Bring an example.
@@radMisc I think the point is Destiny is clearly out of his league on this one. He is clearly struggling to add to the conversation and constantly googling and reading his ipad trying to figure out what to say next. It is not that his points are incorrect, it that his points aren't meaningful. He just resorts to debate lord tactics because he doesn't have the knowledge base to participate any other way.
@@radMisc Just to illustrate the discrepancy here. The other three gentlemen at this table have devoted their professional lives studying the Israel Palestine conflict: Finkelstein himself for nearly 40 years since completing his doctorate in the 80's...Destiny reads some online articles for a week from his gaming chair, and then starts flippantly dismissing all the points they make. It doesn't matter how much of a 'genius' Destiny portrays himself as online, the amount of research he's done is probably less or equivalent to a single semester basic undergraduate course on the subject. Finkelstein had a right to be upset, and I'm surprised that his partner exercised such patience until the end.
I really enjoyed Rabbani here. He’s great!
"I choose my words very carefully, Mr. Borelli"
this comment needs more thumbs up
Watch what you say about the acclaimed scholar finkletwinkle
Here i fixed it
I. Choose. My. Words. . Very. Carefully
Mr
Banell
Glad that this podcast showcases how much a nut job finklestein is…. Jesus look into him…
He even harassed his neighbours !! He is mentally unwell
Destiny should've called him Mr twinkle star
Destiny: “My name is Steven Bonnell”
Norm: “Mr. Potato Head”
I love !
LOL, good one!
😂
THIS! This is what happened!
"I am not saving space for this things name..."
😂
this is like a discussion on theoretical physics between Ed Witten, Roger Penrose, Peter Higgs, and the crazy russian hacker
Except the crazy russian hacker says something about physics with a shource, the Ed Witten calls him a moron, only for Peter Higgs to tell Ed witten that the hacker is actually correct. Then Ed Witten just calms him a moron again and says Peter Higgs doesnt understand his own book.
@@ri3121 ok
Finkelstein trying to tell Benny Morris what Benny meant in his own book was wild
morris knew he was exposed ,
@@moneflowe6995 in what way ? People views cannot evolve or be nuanced ?
Do you think his book should not be criticized? The question was why Benny changed what he said about the settler-colonial roots in Zionism.
No he was saying you can't put ideology in a vacuum like Ole boi did
It's a common practice in academic debate to cite passages from someone's work to ground your arguments and critiques. You sound like a typical superficial internet baby that reacts overly outraged at the idea of intellectual disagreement
"Your such a fantastic moron" with his accent made me laugh pretty hard lmaoo
“Mr.Burelli I’m gonna ask you again to stop displaying your imbecility.” got me. Norm might be wrong on the facts but his insult game is amazing.
"You are the peak of imbecility" , i was dying
@@6laccdemarcowhich facts? name 2
@@looc546 Theyre tryin so hard to spin this disaster, but its too late, we all seen it happen.
I just wrote a long reply, there are so many things Finkelsteib gets wrong it’s crazy. Did you actually watch the video?
Thank god finklestein got angry. Otherwise, this would've been an 8 hour podcast.
Actually hilarious how he tried to dismiss destiny, then proceeded to get so slapped around that he lost all composure and lex had to tell him to reel it in.
He called destiny a lightweight and then got destroyed by him. Humiliating
@@lilrawri8446😂
@@lilrawri8446 real 😭
@@lilrawri8446 honestly embarrassing
@@lilrawri8446"destroyed" 😂 you Destiny fans live in an alternate reality.
Imagine calling the International Court of Justice "some court".
Because they are making a case with one sided evidence where not even the whole court agrees. so yeah its just another random court at this point.
I used to think judges were the best judges but as you can see with trumps witch hunt, many judges are ignorant or corrupt.
they can't enforce their decisions, so they are worthless.
Excellent conversation. Some truly thought-provoking points were raised in this debate.
15 hours later, I was able to get through this 5 hour debate
Same 😂😂
yup
I’m still working on it 😅 only 1.5 hrs in a n 7 hr period
" The first time the phrase “human animal” was recorded in history was by himmaliar, in The Posen speech to SS officers (6 October 1943) - On the 7th, it is crucial to understand that there were no direct attacks on civilians, only collateral damage. Out of the 1148 total names on haaret dataset, 473 military and 675 were civilians.
Ratio of civilians to military personnel killed on the 7th was 1 . 4 : 1 - lower than any of the iTf "mowing" operations, which has a ratio of 7 : 1
According to UN OCHA data from 2008 to 2022; The collateral damage on the 7th was significantly lower than any of the ITf "mowing" operations, which had a ratio of 7:1 with 1,023 military personnel out of 6,541 total. On the 7th, with 473 military (418 were iTf military personnel, 55 belonged to the police) out of 1148 total, the ratio of civilians to military personnel was a mere 1.4:1
When including all casualties, not just deaths, the collateral damage ratio of the "mowing" operations is a staggering 162:1
From the 161,233 accumulated civilian casualties over only 14 years of "mowing" operations.
A 162 :1 ratio means that for every 162 civilians, 1 military personnel is a casualty. The 7th had a ratio of 1.4:1, more than a hundred times lower.
The 473 are - 55 soldiers, 13 privates, 59 corporals, 200 sergeants (45 of whom were sergeant majors), 48 commanders, 32 lieutenants, 5 lieutenant colonels, 6 colonels, 37 officers, 10 inspectors, 6 intendants, and 2 Lance Corp. This was a military defeat, and they are taking it out on the rest.
The reported ages of the victims are as follows:
0-4: 2 civilians
5-12: 8 civilians
13-17: 14 civilians
18-25: 132 civilians
26-40: 119 civilians
41-60: 55 civilians
61+: 40 civilians
Active duty military personnel:
18-25: 258 active duty military personnel
26-40: 60 active duty military personnel
41-60: 17 active duty military personnel
61+: 1 active duty military personnel
haaretz datasheet titled title: xsraxl's Dead: The Names of Those Killed in Hxmxs Attacks, Mxssxcres and the xsrxel-Hxmxs Wxr
There is a more detailed report of of oct 7th titled "I scrapped the information about 1096 of the 1460 killed on 7th of October Attack. Children Less than 1%"
@@mznxbcv12345what are you yappin abt bro
“With all due respect, absolutely a disgrace.” 🤣
Lex you are the best debate moderator I have seen so far. Kudos to you for being fair on both sides.
Debates are so much better without watchers clapping every two minutes.
Makes for a very bias debate. Couldn't agree more a live audience almost always ruins a debate. If most of the audience is on one side they will exaggerate the points made by the one side even if the point isn't very valid
@@anthonyhewitt9397 they will also clap for well-spoken fallacies
Benny laughing at finklestein yelling at destiny is so funny
Benny: ONLY 30,000!
It annoys finkelstein that there is basically this "kid" named "destiny" that has come basically out of nowhere and is far more organized and prepared than him.
@@user-gl8eh3kt2u lol…I literally laughed at your comment.
@@user-gl8eh3kt2u dude spent his enitre life on this shit and got out smarted by a kid whit a stripers name
@@user-gl8eh3kt2uWhich Video did you watch?
This is great, no matter what you stand for I think it's important to have a way of seeing the other side's view and maybe it will ignite a feeling of compassion and humility.
Thank you Lex Fridman for giving the platform for this discussion.
Idk why everybody is talking about Finkelstein's' ad hominen attacks when Destiny just refuses to stop being snarky. They're both doing it.
Norm: "what is your name?"
Steven: "Steven bonell"
Norm: "Ok Mr Gomez"
"Mr. Bordello"
Lol
😂😂😂
"is that Steven Bonnell with a B?"
Okay MR: Twinkelsteen
Not gonna lie, Watching this has to be a guilty pleasure.
Yes, watch a destiny, get his a** Owned and barely talk 2 hours and to show that he's such an intellectual fraud absolutely a guilty pleasure.
What commendable honesty
The intellectual personal insults were a highlight for me as well 💀😂😂
For sure. This is like the intellectual’s drama show
I follow you for precisely this real interaction. Thank you.
“Inevitable and inbuilt” sounds like something deeply entrenched into an ideology. Morris saying “I never said deeply entrenched” is just a bad faith argument. He wants to somehow get by with saying that transfer was just “part” of zionism, like that means anything. I agree with Finkelstein, it’s either fundamental or incidental, you can’t have both.
Norm: What's your name?
Destiny: Steven Bonell
Norm: thanks Mr. 手口女大金土田
Hahaha
Finkelstein knows how to read but Destiny knows how to think.
@@CivilizationInNationDestiny knows how to jibber at warp speed to compensate for his piss puddle shallownwss of thought.
@@defaulttmc Norm actually had no answers to Destiny's great questions, instead he chose to attack Destiny's common sense, not professional.
@@CivilizationInNation"Destiny" asked inane, ignorant, loaded questions. He's a nasal, limp-wristed effeminate who should stick to playing games on the internet.
You can really feel the love in that room.
Very sorry, I found even the devious Dr Morris to be good-natured in his delivery/response to Dr Finkelstein's statements.
@@castelodeossos3947 Norm, is that you?
@@castelodeossos3947 yeah from my eyes only Mr finkelstien behaved like a complete dick who embarrassed himself... all he did was insult people and get their names wrong xD didn't even engage properly with arguments.
@@suspendedtwice4sayingrasis261 no, just someone else on the spectrum
@@Jaaskle We really spectrum shaming with Destiny in the room? 😂
No wonder why Douglas Murray fear talking Sir Norman Finkelstein
This new season of Curb Your Enthusiasm is really great.
Underrated comment
@@remberingslumberfr
I also want to add that i love the passion of the people here willing to listen to a nearly 5 hour long debate on the Israel/Gaza war.
Long ass talk
there is no equivalency it is a genocidal campaign
I wouldn’t say passion - it’s just a long video that I can listen to at work
Agreed!
On my second listen rn… what’s wrong with me?
It is essential for individuals to be well-prepared and informed before engaging in a debate. Relying on real-time information retrieval during a discussion may indicate a lack of sufficient preparation. Engaging in a debate should be based on prior knowledge and understanding of the topic, as searching for information during the conversation could be perceived as a lack of expertise on the subject matter.
Correcting information is the most important thing. If you need go search something up to probe if it’s right or wrong that’s fine.
WOW! this is powerful. Thank you Lex!
When you try to call someone out in a debate and they just hit you with the Finkelstare
I started watching this 20 minutes ago....I'm still listening to Finklesteins opening remark. Haha. Jk.
@@leevy6753you’re not kidding tho lmao
Or his rate of speaking.. just as slow as his points 💀
@R2d2.. His points are pretty solid. Most people who disagree with him do so based on his speaking against Isreal, and not because he is necessarily wrong.
There's something wrong with him
"Captain Corelli, it's just so embarrassing! At least have some humility! Between us, we've read maybe 10000 books on the topic and you've played 1 mandolin!"
one of my favorite comments on here so far. Classic!
Arguments of authority are fallacious. Don’t fall for it.
@@Arthur-fz5dwI totally agree, I am a neutral person to this conflict, i was interested to get a deeper understanding to this conflict. I felt Destiny answered adequate questions. And Norman was just on a deep rant about contemporary society. It feels like he loves to be in a castle up high in the sky. Where only the him called smartest people are allowed who have official degrees. It really speaks to his very narrow mind set of not accepting that people have other ways to reach enlightenment.
@@Arthur-fz5dw I’d take an actual qualified surgeon’s word on surgeries over anybody else, because of their authority, any day of the week.
@@muzzymikeonthemic9359 well, good for you but just so you know, this makes you a gullible person, easy to manipulate, and unable to think rationally, critically and independently 🤷♂️