Why I don't use the inside flag (& what I do instead)
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- Опубликовано: 14 июн 2024
- The inside flag often introduces inefficiency in climbing movement. Except when it doesn't. It's good to know the few times to use it and why you shouldn't most of the time. My book on training for climbing: www.davemacleod.com/shop/9out...
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Been climbing for 30 years, but every day is still a school day... and it's great having one of the best as a teacher. Thanks Dave. 👍
The fact you actually show the difference in efficacy by being able to do a move vs not is such a fail safe way to get the point across!
Macleod footwork tutorials are based as hell. Keep them coming please Dave!
Been watching your content for years and your videos never fail to be thought provoking. I can see how a lot of what you mentioned has applied to my own usages of inside flags, though I do think I can imagine another scenario where inside flags are useful (and which actually can apply to hard climbing as opposed to just easy moves off jugs when they present themselves).
Scenario: When doing traversal like movements, I've noticed that some climbs allow for inside flags to be useful when the hold is in the opposite direction of the inside flag. This scenario, as opposed to the cross over example you dissected, allows you to create a different kind of pull by creating torque. Torque can be created by opening up your body as you reach to the hold, which pulls your hip into the wall. With enough torque, the entire leg ends up being sucked into the wall, providing an almost leg-smear effect. Sometimes, in the case of indoor gyms, I've even encountered volumes where my foot would naturally land, allowing me to accompany the movement with a toe scum or toe hook by flexing the ankle. This is incredibly rare ofc which I think only furthers your point with them, but I think that it's interesting to geek out about. Climbing technique is truly so nuanced and it gets me so psyched to think about this stuff.
These in-depth technique videos are a GOLD MINE. I'm pretty new to climbing and with any luck, your videos will help me develop good habits from the start. Thank you!
I almost never write comments. Here I have too. Please continue with these videos. You are answering so many of my questions!
I can't get enough of these technique videos. They're the best I've seen. Please keep them coming!
These technique videos you have been putting out recently are excellent coming from one of the best practitioners out there. It would be great to see these become semi-regular content - I for one would look out for them
Great explanation of the limitation of the inside flag. I know several people swearing by them, but they are often on this juggier terrain and trying to remain unnecessarily static.
I find the only times I have used inside flags is to find stable positions for short rests, especially where there is a high handhold which is more of an undercut shelf. This helps keep me deep into the wall where a foot swap would be precarious at best and where building my feet would start to load my arms again.
and for clipping...
@@chrissmithdoe2100 can be used for clipping, but the only times I have used have not been for clips, just one half of a rest stance where the other half is the better clipping stance.
@@zacharylaschober ah, interesting, i'll look out for that spot. i've often used it for clips where the position is awkward and inside flagging means you don't have to manoevre your body as much
Informative, thoughtful criticism, backed up with convincing demonstrations and real-life examples. Top video, Dave! This, plus the foot-swap video, means you've convinced me to work harder on the latter instead of relying on inside-flagging! Thank you for the excellent content 😃
You've been a huge help. I try to use your videos to teach myself and others.
Thank you for your work.
I love how detail oriented you are about these topics, and it always inspires me to experiment in my own climbing. As always, thank you for sharing!
Amazing analysis. I love the additional footage for the examples
Your videos are easily the best explanations of the fine details of technique around. Thank you for sharing your insight!
These movement videos are amazing! Thank you for sharing!!!
LOVING these videos!!! Please keep them coming!
Fantastic content as ever - a different level to most things out there - thanks!
These technique videos are great! Way better than 99% of climbing technique videos that show contrived ideal conditions to make moves look really graceful and simple.
awesome video, great to go into depth with these specific techniques!
These technique videos are very helpful! I've actually sent multiple boulders in my gym due to applying the principles I learned from your earlier video about the counter balancing foot.
This is so good for sending it to my intermediate friends as you can explain this a 1000% times more clearly then I can.
Great video, crystalised something I've had in my subconscious for years but didn't properly understand. Thanks Dave :)
Great video, I love your philosophy on climbing and learning in general!
Yeah same feeling. One thing I'm always missing from a inside flag is the ability to push with my assisting leg.
Thank you for these videos Dave!
I found you thanks to Magnus. I have problems with my arms for nearly two years now because of the golfer arm. I was using my feet not enough and also had temporarily finger injuries. Thanks a lot for showing these advanced foot techniques and from your other video. If you have more foot techniques or general lower body technique, I would be very thankful.
Great stuff, well thought out and nuanced as usual! Having never used inside flags until quite recently I've added them while indoor bouldering. I find them most on slabby terrain bad feet to help reduce the risk of foot swapping while completing the final hand match to finish the boulder (but as you note, maybe I need to work on foot swapping in general to challenge that aversion). Thanks Dave!
Excellent stuff; really well explained and demonstrated. Much appreciated, cheers.
Glad to see this video! I've tried to implement more inside flags since it's been emphasised by other insteuctors, but I've often found that it puts too much load on my fingers, and other techniques ends up being more efficient.
This videos on technique are GREAT, thanks a lot for them!!!
Top notch as always, thank you for the great content!
glad somebody pointed this out, many thanks
amazing stuff lately Dave.
Great Video as always! Love those details 💪
When Be Fuller demos the inside flag she’s usually reaching into her back space whereas you are reaching forward… It’s nice to see a substantive critique of the technique, but I’m not sure that it refutes her technique in particular. Enjoying your book by the way! Cheers, Daniel
But the next hold IS forward though
Good point…I think inside flags are really useful for layback moves when you need the extra reach that a back flag won’t provide. Coach Be also emphasizes the importance of engaging the glutes when doing inside flags which would reduce the additional load on the fingers that Dave mentions as a potential downside to the technique.
@@lamaj7896 You're supposed to use glute engagement in both techniques. As an experiment, try to maximize glute engagement and tension in the outside flag vs inside and see which is more powerful. I'd be surprised if you didn't think the outside flag was better.
This was such a useful video, not just about inside flags, but about flagging in general and I learned a lot from it even though I am a V8/5.12 climber, it still goes to show that climbing is so detailed and nuanced, even for the basic techniques you learn in year 1.
Thanks Dave!
This channel is just pure gold.
Fantastic stuff. Really keen to hear what you have to say about jugs. Cheers
I would be very interested to see a comparison of flagging techniques (or any similar discussion) done on edges with force sensors in them to see how much more force output is actually needed. Simple concept of using force sensors but hard to actually set up in a way that mimics real climbing.
Thank you. I didn't like inside flags or couldn't get good at them. I thought it was just lack of practice. Thank you for helping me understand why!!
Great breakdown, thank you!
That’s really clear explanation and demonstrations. Thank you, Dave!
I have a feeling indoor-bred climbers may tend to get accustomed to inside flagging because holds tend to be bigger (particularly at lower grades) with limited choice of foot holds whereas routes are steeper.
By contrast, in winter climbing, there is almost no space for the inside flag, simply because of chunky boots and pointy crampons, though holds are usually massive (axe handles) 😉
Got me thinking about when I've used them and its usually to match a finishing jug indoors, can't think of a time where I've used it outside
legend. Great insight into deeper physics and healthy climbing habits :) cheers
best teacher in climbing. far better than lattice.
Great video! Another situation where i find the inside flag useful is on steep terrain with stretched out moves on few and small (2-finger) pockets where you can just fit the tip of your shoe and don't have any other footholds to choose from. It may cost some power to swap feet under those circumstances (hard to target a small pocket on a steep wall), and a quick inside flag helped me solve this situation (not often, but i happened on a couple of routes)
Totally agree! Never saw a use for it!
Lovely to hear because I climb exactly how you said you would. Great video very factual and backed up too 👏
Thank you for this video. I've been working on improving my footwork, and lately I've been trying to use flags way more, and the inside flag is the one I practically always feel useless with. It usually moves my hips too far from the wall. I just thought I was getting the technique wrong or that I didn't have enough flexibility to properly make use of inside flags haha
Great explanation!
Hi Dave, nice video as always! But the comparison using a 10mm edge is kind of obvious to be in favour of the back flag. I would like to see you trying this move with the edge turned around into an undercling and much poorer foothold, my bet is the inside flag would feel easier! Also, about the dynamic comparison, doing a dyno is often easier from a square-on position, rather than a droop knee, but drop knee is obviously a very useful technique. Can't wait for the next videos, cheers!
Excellent video Dave. One thing to note on New Base Line (V14) was that the other climber appeared to be heel hooking where you used your toe, which meant their foot was much higher and allowed room for the outside flag. Had they tried to inside flag at that point, their hips would have ended up well above their torso.
So a great example of where (in your beta) foot position actually created the scenario whereby an inside flag was the right move.
12:40 the way Dave chuckles as he says "you're probably going to die"
Thank you for sharing !
Did a pretty mean slab recently where i kept dropping off because i couldnt keep close enough to the wall and wasn't able to swap feet. Took me a lot of tries to figure out i actually needed to do an inside flag because otherwise it pretty much never ever helped me. Great video!
Thank you so much you are a great help!
Thanks coach.
Cannot like this enough! Super useful for me as a beginner climbing coach 😅
Such fantastic content.
Great explanation, I've often wondered if I was doing this wrong and hadn't considered situations where there's more load on the hand holds.
Also, as if by magic, Neil Gresham appeared demonstrating the move on a trad climb - I always associate this move with him due to its inclusion in his Climbing Masterclass DVD (now on his RUclips channel). Though perhaps on something steeply overhangong with good handholds it's quicker and more efficient; I used to climb at the Edge climbing wall where it was demonstrated on the DVD.
Amazing analysis. Now I understand why I almost only use it for easy matches on the last hold in indoor bouldering: it's easy anyway so might as well go for the straightforward method and not risk slipping on the very last foot swap. When doing a limit move, I never, ever use inside flag even though I find it elegant.
Number of moves is fine and all but the lateral view of your body position on the wall really made it visible which position was more mechanically advantageous. Who cares if you have to swap feet if the foot swap itself is 10% of the intensity of the other move?
I only find myself using inside flag to match the top hold
Great advice!
I really appreciate those feet technique deep analysis, once we get strong we tend to forget to min-max our feet thus having more weight on our hands !
I searched but I didn't manage to find good guides on how to build strong feet, maybe that gives you an idea
Gresham got me spamming inside edge flag, this is great to know. Thanks
This is amazing detail unreal
Hi Dave, are there any important techniques for matching holds? Would you consider making a video on this subject? Thanks!
I think inside flag is actually quite useful on slab and to a less extent vertical climbing. Since often the hands and feet are so bad a foot swap might be impossible and getting pushed away from the wall isn't near as much of a problem. In my memory in competition climbing most of the inside flags were on a slab climb
Just climbed a route last weekend that had a tough clip that was SO much easier with an inside flag, I hardly ever use them, but the foot swap or back flag didn't cut it and the inside flag made the clip totally easy. Think about it for tough clips!
11:18
I so agree that big holds ( especially in gyms) can unfortunately help develop bad movement patterns.
I try my best to use them often just to practice it as a skill for when it really is needed but one of the most common places they get use is starting and finishing indoor boulders where you can prevent a barndoor and easily eliminate a foot swap on a bad hold just because the movement starts or stops in that position
I hardly ever use them, but when I think about it the place I do use them is often matching the last hold on an indoor boulder, where basically I'm finished and not going anywhere else from there
Good Point and exactly what my conclusion was!
Everything you say is true, but - inside flags feel great, and I love them.
I agree. I have been climbing 31 years now and used it once, outside.
Valuable video!
I'm a tall climber (6ft4) I think the inside flag increases in utility the longer you are. Because I'm tall reaching the holds on wall climbs generally isn't what takes up most of my energy. The more important thing is often being able to stabilise myself quickly in order to make a clip or a small hand movement or adjustment, the inside flag helps tons with doing this.
What I'm learning from this is i need to get better at footswaps. I tend to use the inside flag on bad sidepulls and undercuts.
I also think inside flags work in the very limited circumstance were foot swapping is very difficult but the hand-holds are fine enough for the movement. You kind of covered it with the undercling example.
Had a similar issue a few days ago, where the inside flag was even actively pushing my torso away from the wall. Had to though, since the foot swap seemed too sketchy.
"The load that's placed on your fingers is kind of a big deal *smirk*" 😂
Often when I go to the inside flag is when the foot and hold is so bad that I cannot spend time time to switch feet. I mostly do switch feet because I reach further and am stronger in that position. But that's not always possible for me. Switching feet is harder than an inside flag in many situations
10/10 video, I'm wondering what's the status of the video on jugs
The only reason I use it is when I don't want to add an extra foot step to flow rapidly instead of matching the feet.
In sometimes use the inside flag to double a top hold of a boulder. But apart from that I almost never use it
How about its use in very steep climbing, like in roofs? Granted this is usually on good holds aswell, but in roofs I tend to want to twist my body inwards anyways. I find these scenarios lend themselves to inside flags. Or am I missing something better?
Exactly what I wanted to add...steep terain works perfectly for those. Inside flag forces one to twist (which the other kind of flaging does not necessarily do) and therefore also reach further with en arm.
The relative inability to exert outward force on the foothold is even worse at steep angles. As I say in this video, if you watch a bunch of lead comp finals, count how many inside flags you see. They are a rare sight. Usually better to swap and get more weight on the foot.
@@climbermacleod looks like I'll be doing some experimentation with my foot work next session. Thanks for these kinds of videos. They are a good reminder to put conscious effort into improving technique.
Hola daviiiiid !!!
But it look that it was quite useful at the ,,new baseline" boulder, wasn't it ? ;)
Front flags are better used for traversing, imo. Specifically, when swapping feet would be difficult or impractical. With that consideration, hold size does not matter.
I'm amazed. Do you remember the moves of the majority of climbs you have done?
I rarely use inside flags and generally agree with what you have presented here but have you considered that your years and years of practicing outside flags and your lack of practicing inside flags could have a significant impact on your ability to use inside flags? The inside flag position actually looks fairly ergonomic for pulling into the wall with your leg and with enough practice perhaps it could be more useful than you give it credit for
That's a valid argument, but for me, Dave's argument of the biomechanical advantage for pulling to the wall when changing feet is better, and should apply for everyone.
Amazing
My internal hip rotation is too bad for flags. I do foot swaps instead.
Does this also mean on a slab climb the inside flag would be more beneficial, because the outside leg 'bow shape' is helping keep your weight on the wall, rather than pulling you off the wall on a vert or underhang?
Can't find the 'counterweight' video in the channel. Anyone know what that one is titled?
Do you guys also read the titles of Dave's videos with his same accent?
Aye laddie.
His accent is stuck in my head forever when I think about climbing.
Yes. I find myself using his accent when thinking about moves during a climb😂
Im afraid to fall if I use an inside flag on boulders
Ironically, I never ever inside flag and everything you said in this video I was like “absolutely. 100%. Total waste of energy”
I get to the gym the morning and the setters had put up a boulder with a series of moves where the best beta actually did require an inside flag.
Surely this is just a single scenario though? I would like to see you try a second scenario where you reach for a hold on the left side of your body instead of crossing over your body to the right.
Yes it’s one scenario but reaching to the left would not change it.
is that a screamer below on lexicon?
Ironicly i started using the inside flag alot more after this video.
I’ve been climbing consistently for 8 years and I’ve never used an inside flag once!
I use backflags quite often in scenarios like 11:18
There you just showed the opposite of the title of this video ("I don't use the inside flag").
Just like you, I wouldn't swap feet in that scenario...