Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is the greatest musical piece I have ever heard. I have listened to all pieces with an Opus by Beethoven this year and when I got to the Missa Solemnis it just caught me from the first second to the last like no piece before. It made in it's own way more sense than any other piece.
My thoughts exactly. A lot of attention is given to Bach's B minor mass in the "greatest mass/music of all time" conversation, but to me this is Beethoven at his best. He even said it was his greatest accomplishment. The way he constructs a narrative throughout the whole piece is mind-blowing.
Thank you for your comments about that sublime Szell performance. I joined the Cleveland Orchestra Chorus in 1961, at the age of 17, and the experience changed my life, as I eventually became a high school choral director in the Cleveland area. I believe that we gave that particular performance in 1963, and it was an earth-shattering experience for me. We again sang it in 1967, both at Severance Hall in Cleveland and in New York's Carnegie Hall during our annual visit there. I am fortunate enough to have that limited edition recording, as a good friend gave it to me as a Christmas present several years later. I think, frankly, that a possible reason that the Orchestra will not release many of those old performances lies with the fact that they have become musically incapable of duplicating Szell's mastery of the work. The Missa Solemnis has not been performed by the Cleveland since our performances of 1967. They did perform it in London's Royal Albert Hall in a 2005 Proms concert which received rather poor reviews. The Music Directors since Szell have been Maazel, Von Dochnanyi, and Welser-Mőst; Choral Directors since Shaw have included Krehbiel, Hillis, Page, Morrell, Porco, and Wong. The Cleveland Orchestra Chorus had over two hundred members when Shaw was its director; it now has about one hundred. Sic semper gloria!
I just listened to a stream of the 1967 performance, it seems to be on a number of platforms presently. The execution of the assembled forces meets the total audacity of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis head-on. Wonderful. Needless to say the chorus is equal parts sharp and warm. But, the brass section performance really stands out; typical for late Beethoven, their sound is exposed, and the Cleveland brass really throw caution to the wind. This performance really illuminated the remarkable genre-bending, and era-erasing, character of the great composer's vision of the ancient form of liturgical music writing.
Great David. You are a mystical entity just like the Beethoven's Missa. Hard to define, beautiful and sometimes coarse, calm and noisy, light and exaggerated. Endless and hypnotic fugues...
I was present at a forum with Robert Shaw in Cincinnati sometime in the mid-1980s - he visited the College-Conservatory of Music while guest conducting the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra (May Festival perhaps? So many years ago...) It was about 10 a.m., and he met with about 20 of us students and a couple of professors. His hands were shaking - he was obviously unwell. The choral conducting students were asking him about training methods. He wasn't very enthusiastic. He just said that the overall technical quality of choruses at that time was incomparably better than when he began his career. He didn't seem to be interested in talking about the process. I think he just wanted to go back to his hotel. I timidly asked him how it was possible, if choruses were so much better today, that even in old mono sound the 1953 Toscanini Missa Solemnis sounded technically equal if not superior to anything else I had heard at the time, and especially in the impossible fugal stretto of the Credo. The colour went back into his face for a minute, and he said "what a hysterical tempo - and a hysterical piece." And an evil smile crossed his face when he continued: "There are people still alive who think they sang that."
I'm so glad that you put Szell's live Missa Solemnis at the top. A late horn player friend played that concert and said that it was Robert Shaw's last Choral preparation in Cleveland before he went to Atlanta. The "GLORIA" at the end of the Gloria always sends sacred chills up my spine. Unfortunately, that entire Szell box was only available for a few years. I'm fortunate to have friends in the Cleveland Orchestra from whom I can borrow it. I hope TCO takes your advice regarding making these commercially available. I enjoy your page very much 🎶🎶
Bless you for mentioning the Szell. At the tempos he took the notes move past my eyes faster than I can keep up! I simply cannot believe the job the Cleveland chorus did. Absolutely amazing!
In music school 50 years ago 😘 we heard the apocryphal tale of the afternoon when several of LvBs pals came calling. They arrived at his door only to hear awful unmusical banging on the piano. After some time the piano ceased and they knocked - Beethoven came to the door looking completely exhausted and disheveled - and announced to his friends he had just completed his new work Missa Solemnis. We were not told from whom this mighty tale arose. Still, gotta love the picture that arises in the mind of this sunny afternoon in Bonn 🤣😂🤣😂👍🏼
This was a most rewarding talk on the various recordings of the Missa Solemnis. Up until now, I had only heard three: the 1966 Karajan rendition; the 1966 version by Klemperer; and the 1990 Archiv recording by Gardiner. I listened with great interest to your discussion of the 1967 George Szell recording, and managed to find a great mp3 version right here on RUclips. I also picked up the Herbert Blomstedt CD on Amazon and heard the organ part for the very fist time ever. I never even realized there WAS an organ part. Thank you so much for your enlightening survey!
I recently bought an original 2 LP set of Toscanini conducting the NBC Symphony Orchestra and the Robert Shaw Chorale in this work. The soloists are Lois Marshall (soprano), Nan Merriman (alto), Eugene Conley (tenor), and Jerome Hines (bass). Yes it's old, yes it's in mono sound. But the Chior being trained by Shaw and Toscanini whipping the orchestra into shape, it sounds like Beethoven meets Verdi. It's a favorite of mine along with the Szell.
The Blomstedt recording with the Gewandhausorchester is sublime, thanks for sharing it! I own 2 recordings of this work on LP; Karajan's for DG... which isn't particularly interesting, it so happens to be the one my dad had when he gave me all of his LPs, but Kurt Masur's 1972 recording for Eterna is - also with the Gewandhausorchester. It has the legendary Peter Schreier as the tenor soloist. Highly worthwhile listening material.
Thanks Dave, today I heard on my car radio, Missa Solemnis, Kyrie with Jordi Savall. I listened so many times to this great piece of music, 11 years ago I heard the missa solemnis for the first time, live in Amsterdam, Concertgebouw with the Concertgebouw Orchestra with Harnoncourt. I did leave the concert hall with tears in my eyes - I did begin to love this work so much and I heard it so many times in very different occassions. Today I did have to stop my car and it moved me again to tears, a great Kyrie for all things happen in this world (Israel - Gaza, Oekraine etc) I pray for a big peace and Beethoven his missa solemnis maybe it can be e present for peace to this world, greetings from the Netherlands
I’m one of those oddballs who immediately fell in love with the Missa Solemnis. So much so that as an amateur tenor with not much formal training I joined our local civic chorus just so I could be part of the choir performing it that season. What a work to join a choir for! It’s a bear, as you say. Incidentally, my sentimental favorite recording is actually the earlier Harnoncourt on Teldec. It has a great blend of the tastes of modern and HIP styles and the soloists are amazing. And for some reason he has the sweet-toned tenor Anthony Rolfe Johnson sing the “Et incarnatus es” as a solo rather than with the choir. This would have annoyed me had I been in the choir, but it’s totally gorgeous as done. The sonics though are muddy and disappointing.
Thanks for another fine overview David. One of my favourite works which in 45 years of owning and listening to classical music I never tire of. My most favourable recording of the Missa Solemnis is Jochum with The Concertgebouw - but only on LP curiously. The CD transfer doesn't have the same impact unfortunately! Klemperer is also excellent of course. I probably have most of what he recorded.
We saw Shaw conduct the Missa with the Pittsburgh SO back in the early 70s at the Temple Music Festival (outside Philly). The Gloria was one of the most transporting moments of my concert-going life. The audience must have thought so too, because the applause that followed the last note was thunderous, as if it was the only way to respond to the sheer excitement of the music, and to hell with concert etiquette.
Thanks for recommending the Szell recording. I was able to track it down and my mind was properly blown. Szell's incredible clarity and sense of balance bring out parts in the orchestra and chorus that often get buried, even in modern recordings. He also brings out the stylistic connections with Beethoven's other orchestral music more fully than any other recording I've heard yet. Szell's interpretation really helps you to understand the piece better, on top of being tremendously exciting. I have a LOT of recordings of the Missa Solemnis, so that's saying something. Anyway, thank you! Also, as a heads-up to everyone, Urania's reissue apparently tried to "clean up" the audio and introduced some unwelcome distortion in the process. The CD that was part of the Cleveland box set sounds better.
As a chorister, I can say that the Missa Solemnis ranks with the most difficult works in the repertoire. Huge stamina is required for the Gloria and Credo, and the Credo double-time fugue, if taken too fast, is unsingable. The collective anxiety of the tenor section as they wait for the unaccompanied 'et resurrexit' is not pleasant, likewise a stressed soprano section trying to sustain all the (countless) As and Bbs. There are so many pitfalls. But, if all goes well, it's absolutely thrilling. I've loved the Harnoncourt and Gardiner recordings for the sheer virtuosity of the choral singing, the clarity of text and dynamics. The Klemperer recording is in a class of its own.
The awkward, technically challenging writing in some of Beethoven's later works is most likely a function of his deafness rather than of (his) sublime inspiration.
Thanks, Dave! I 've always loved the Missa Solemnis and have never understood why so many people have issues with it. I regard the ending of the 'Gloria' as perhaps my all-time favorite joyous ending to a movement or work--it makes me want to jump out of my skin! The early Bernstein does it for me every time. Thanks for the rec of the Szell and Blomstedt; must seek them out!
I love this channel so much. David, even in your moments of passion for particular performances and musical beliefs, you maintain a certain inspiring open mindedness. I say inspiring, because you have always inspired me to keep an open mind. Now, I wouldn't say I'm a Bernstein hater, but I think I'm closer to that than I am to your feelings about Bernstein. But I always keep my ears open when you recommend him, because I ABSOLUTELY know what you mean by how he nails certain pieces. For me, I adore his Schumann symphonies. And yes, perhaps I'm a little uncomfortable about how superb and profound I find his Missa Solemnis. Thank you David for revealing it to me.
Please permit me this "Missa" story. One Sunday in April of '73, I was sitting in a tenor & bass sectional (Cleveland Orch Chorus) for the Missa Solemnis, when who should walk in but Lorin Maazel himself, the new Music Dir of the orchestra; it was a sort of "get acquainted" session, and he proceeded to lead the rest of the rehearsal. In the middle of the Gloria, he stopped at the point where Beethoven, in order to heighten the intensity of "miserere nobis" ("have mercy on us") had inserted the interjection "O (miserere)"; however, some editions used "AH" (miserere) instead. "Which shall it be?", the Maestro mused, perched on his conductor's chair, hands clasped and, in his best Bela Lugosi mode, rolling his eyes Heavenward, as if seeking divine guidance. "Shall we use "O" or "Ah?" A brief moment of silence, and a voice from the back row called out "How about OY?". Lorin Maazel is NOT known for his sense of humor, which only increased our convulsions as we tried to restrain from howling. Maazel glowered: "Will the gentleman who made the comment please see me afterwards". We all immediately switched to defensive mode, to protect one of our own. At the end of the rehearsal, we closed ranks, expecting a confrontation, while chorus director Robert Page jumped in saying "Guys, let me handle this." In the end, Maazel spoke softly and courteously with the wise guy (who also happened to be Jewish), an older gent...bald, with a white beard, wearing a tweed jacket, sort of a combo between Leo Tolstoy and St. Nick..who up 'til that point had never uttered a word to any of us all season long. Believe me, you can never tell about those quiet ones.... LR
Great video Dave! I have been waiting for this one. For my 3 cents, I have always loved this work since a teenager. I just reveled in the sense of rough struggle that seems to be an underlying current through the thing. My favorites are, the early Bernstein, Klemperer, toscanini on rca. HOWEVER, to coin a phrase, my all time sleeper missa is Gunther Wand with the Gurzenich de Cologne. Its smokes, with a forward fantastic chorus, and pace. Was on a Nonesuch lp, way back in the early 1970s. But is now on a cd set with an earlier 1950s eroica. Sound is pretty good, better than the lp. Its still out there ! Thanks Paul G.
Same town: Klemperer from 1955. It's obviously not the Philharmonia with their chorus, but it has fantastic integrity and expression. And the orchestra (and soloists) did know the piece well enough to make an excellent case.
Szell absolutely! One of the greatest performances of Beethoven's Missa, for me alongside Toscanini- I have a radio transcript of the Szell as well as the issue put out by the Cleveland Orchestra for his centenery in 1997. Hear it and be overwhelmed and exhausted!!🙌🙌🙌
Dear Dave, I am happy to see that your view of the Gardiner recording has changed from "fairly uninteresting" in one of your ealier talks about the big Gardiner box from DG to "still cool but very impressive and excitng" now. The Gardiner recording is my favourite recording of the Missa since the day it came out and I never managed to warm up with another recording of the work. I found it always very exciting and a very good recording to learn to know the work itself. I once heard that the recording was made during the time the Berlin wall went down and that some of the excitement of that circumstances was captured on the disc. I will give the Kubelik a try, though.
Dear David. Not even Ludwig van completede his 10th - Congratulations on Your deserved complete 10 K devoted and thankfull listeners. No reason not to keep on talking and listening as long as Your insights and enthusiasm have the elevated Level we have become used to.Thank You for Your time and talent
I have the 1953 Toscanini, & the Sanctus always makes me weep buckets (in a good way) but was looking for another version as a comparison, so thanks for this - I do like your videos.
Dave. I forgot to congratulate you on your 10k milestone. Here’s to the next 10k. Thank you for all that you do. These talks literally are game changers.
Thank you Dave for this fine overview and reviews. I may have missed it, but I have the DVD with von Karajan, the Berlin Phil, and the Wiener Singverein...I love it! I would give up many hours of my life to have sung the Missa with von Karajan (I sang the Missa in the Westminster Symphonic Choir (prepared with Dr Joseph Flummerfelt!) with the Pittsburgh Symphony under Donald Johanos (William Steinberg had rehearsed the Missa, but fell ill prior to the performances) (1975) So, just sayin'...
Yes, Missa Solemnis is a hard piece to get to know. In it's way it is the culmination of everything Beethoven learned and was and felt all in one place; it took me some years to realize it's a great work that grows as we keep listening and so I keep listening. Once again you sent me into my own "overflow" area to find my forgotten copy of the spectacular Szell performance I had not heard in years. I listened to it twice this past weekend. Hopefully the neighbors were feeling devotional. I plan to get the Blomstedt set on your say so. Note: 2 corrections: "What's this guy's name?" Bruna Castagna was a "her" and she was one of the greatest of the Italian Mezzo of the first half of the century. And, Eileen Farrell was not actually a Wagnerian soprano. She never sang a whole Wagner role only Walkure Act 1 and Tristan Act 2 both of which I heard live and they were not very good. Admittedly the recordings of Götterdämmerung Immolation scene with DeSabata and Bernstein are spectacular, and there are ok performances of Wesendonck Lieder and a perfectly good recording of Siegfried final scene with Leinsdorf but she never a full role and not even arias from the other operas. Likely she was asked to do more but I believe she instinctively knew hers was a big lyric voice and due to the evidence of how very few performances of live opera she actually sang one might assume she lacked stamina and therefore she was not a Wagnerian. That would have been the likes, in her lifetime, of Traubel, Flagstad, Varnay, Modl, Rysanek, Grummer, Nilsson, etc. But what she was they were not was a terrific singer of popular music. There she was great.
Since the great Robert Shaw is a significant part of this presentation (his Atlanta/Telarc recording is my "go to" recording), viewers should be aware of the magnificent video series "Robert Shaw; Preparing a Masterpiece" right here on You-Tube; Volume 2 is a 96-minute choral rehearsal in NY, where you can actually witness Maestro Shaw work his magic. Want to hear how he accomplishes all of those amazing vocal feats? Here's your chance. LR
The Robert Shaw recording has been my favorite for decades-- it has magical coherence and great beauty and clarity. I'll try some of your recommendations!
Another great video! Your series has cost me $$$$ but has helped me upscale my love and appreciation for the Western repertoire. I had Klemperer's recording from way back, and the rare half dozen times I have played it over the course of 20 years, I have always enjoyed it. But this video has given me greater insight into the work. From the work, I checked in on the New Philharmonia to read their history, which took me to the latest conductor, Santtu-Matias Rouvali, who I heard give a very tepid video performance with the Berlin Phil (cannot even remember what the piece was, but the orchestra did NOT applaud him and seemed eager to leave the stage at the earliest opportunity). From this, I checked your review of Sbelius' First by Rouvali and could not contain my laughter at your tour de force review. All of this from this video! Thank you!
Back in the late 70's when the major part of my income, before marriage and family, went to the purchase of many records from the late and lamented Liberty Music Shop in Ann Arbor, I did buy the Klemperer recording of the Missa Solemnis which I think is great and agree with your assessment, but also the 1957 recording by Karajan on EMI. His Gloria is quite fast and impressive and the unsupported shout of "Gloria" at the very end is marvelous. I didn't play much of the whole recording but wore out the grooves of the Gloria.
Jack Hinkley: Liberty Music in Ann Arbor is still alive but is now known as Encore Music and had moved to s smaller location but they are still a presence in the city.
@@johnpickford4222 I am well aware of Encore Records and frequented it before the move, but I haven't had the opportunity to check out the new store yet as I don't get into AA very often. After moving to Ann Arbor for a job in 1975, I bought many an oil barrel's worth of vinyl from Liberty Music, becoming too well known to the management such that I was asked to work Saturdays, especially during Art Fair and Christmas, for a few years to pay off some of my purchases. I took great glee onetime, when it was my turn to choose a record, to put on the then recently released Muti 'Rite of Spring' on EMI (always EMI never Angel) then being told that it was too "savage" for the customers who would be "driven away" before making a purchase. However the music prevailed. I think at least two copies were sold and more were ordered.
Thanks for this talk, David - excellent as always! I have been fascinated by the Missa Solemnis since I heard a live performance from the Proms in the UK when I was about 12 years old (many years ago....!). I say fascinated, but not really in love with the piece until now! I have the Karajan/Berlin Phil recording from 1966 on CD, and being a huge fan of Christa Ludwig I had spent most of my time with that recording in which I am, overall, somewhat disappointed (do not like the choir). I have been looking to find a way to fall in love with this piece and have generally taken it piecemeal, but I have now listened to many of your recommendations. I was pleasantly surprised by the Rilling and the Gardiner (the chorus in the latter recording is excellent), and in Kubilik I thought I had found my #1 recording; great soloists, strong choir, but I still detected weak moments (the start of the Gloria and the Credo in particular). I was avoiding the Blomstedt as it is a live recording, but I tried it and I have now found my personal reference recording. The choir is strong and the soloists, though individually not the strongest I have heard, sing wonderfully as an ensemble; and this is what I think is required of them in this piece (new revelation?!) The sound is vibrant, clear and immediate. My only negative at this point is the ending of the Gloria; it did not blow my socks off, and I think it always should! Incidentally, I think the Kubelik recording ends the Gloria the best. So, thanks again for finding a new and wonderful recording for me (and many of us, I suspect!)
Giulini is my favorite. It really should be given a truly great remaster. I tracked it down on vinyl - the middle tier CD reissue still sounded better. I always go back to that version.
In the Szell recording one almost feels as if the chorus is conducting it, ferociously, and they are truly amazing. This recording might fully convert me to this extremely tricky piece. Totally agree about the way Beethoven writes for the human voice.There are moments when he seems to be determined to wreck the vocal chords, but then he'll give us music like the quartet in the first act of 'Fidelio' and we forgive them. But my God, when the MS has choral singing of such astonishing confidence and commitment as in Severance Hall that night with Szell, you just feel like Ludwig was upping the chorus's game to a peak. It simply HAS to be performed at this standard.
Yes, it really does kind of spoil you for anything less (although other versions have other points in their favor--I just can't think of them when I hear this one).
I became acquainted with the MS via the Klemperer recording back in the early 1970s. I didn't like it much at first as I was expecting something like the 9th, but eventually I grew to like it a lot. I also have the Szell and concur with your verdict. As to HIP performances, I enjoy the Herreweghe, but it is the only one I know; I'll have to listen to the Gardiner someday to see whether I share your appraisal. I also have both Bernstein's, four Karajan's, Jochum, Toscanini, etc., but Klemperer and Szell remain my top two. I wish I could hear the MS live in a good performance but it seems to be performed rarely in the places I've lived (or visited).
Not everyone would agree, but I always had a soft spot for Giulinis 1973 recording with the LPO and the New Philharmonic Chorus. There are some who criticize its slow tempos, but I thought he kept everything under control and it is one of the most devout reverential interpretations I know of. Very underrated, even now!
Thanks again! It took me quite awhile to appreciate and then love the Missa Solemnis, but it was Bernstein who did it for me-his first recording (with Eileen Farrell et al) and probably still my favorite. I never really took to his later Concertgebouw recording, finding it dull in comparison. Of the HIP boys, I really like Gardiner DG and a more recent-and even quicker-one by Frieder Bernius on Carus, another great choral conductor. As to Harnoncourt, he did one in 2012 with the Concertgebouw and Netherlands Radio Choir on DVD. The soloists are Marlis Petersen, Elisabeth Kulman, Werner Gura, and Gerald Finley. It’s a very moving performance, where Harnoncourt sits down and meditates between some of the movements! I’m glad to know that the Szell is available on RUclips. Will definitely have to check it out.
I listened to Szell’s performance on RUclips this afternoon and can only hope it again becomes available on CD. I think it is terrific, even though there were a couple places that were a bit over-controlled. Still, a marvelous reading where you can hear and appreciate all the detail in the orchestra as well as being blown away by the choir.
You are so funny and a delight to listen to. Not to mention educational! I'm going to park my butt and listen to the Szell recording tonight. After that - I'll check out the Rilling CD I stole from my dad. Thank you!
Oh thank you so much for doing the Missa Solemnis. :-) I have always loved this work but it also always puzzled me... The first performance I heard was actually a live John Eliot Gardiner concert, which blew me away. (Lucy Crowe was the soprano soloist... amazing!!!) In regards to the George Szell recording, if it is the same one you were talking about, his live recording is actually on RUclips. That is how I heard it, so I recommend going to check that out. (if it is still there... hopefully...) My two top choices are the Szell and the Shaw recordings. :-) Thanks so much for this great video.
As soon as I watched this video, the Szell Missa popped up as a "recommended" video on RUclips (the algorithm works!). I assume it has been uploaded legally. Will be listening to it (finally!) today.
You do make me laugh with that split-second image of you wearing a tie when you say "The Ninth"... but I digress: I have tried to listen to Missa Solemnis for decades, and only today have I really loved it. I put on the Gardiner version and thank you very much for inspiring me to begin finally to appreciate this piece.
Great talk, David, and I agree with your assessment of the Szell performance. I'm lucky enough to own that box, and agree that there's more that should be released from it---in my opinion, starting with Sibelius 4 & 7 and the Mahler 9th. If you could choose from that box, what would you recommend? Rich
This is my new favorite you tube channel. I remember you doing battle with hard core Furtwangler fans long ago on message boards. I also seem to remember you actually trying to explain you didn't hate everything he did, as you've shown here, and actually made a great post outlining the recordings you loved. I think it would be great if you dedicated a video to "good" Furtwangler performances; it would be educational as well as the added bonus of confusing the cult members.😃
16:48 The chorus is the „Schweizer Kammerchor“ 🤓 Der Schweizer Kammerchor, der 1997 auf Anregung von Fritz Näf und dem Tonhalle-Orchester Zürich gegründet wurde, widmet sich vor allem der Chorsinfonik, aber auch der A-cappella-Musik vom 17. bis zum 21. Jahrhundert. Neben Konzerten mit dem Tonhalle-Orchester unter Chefdirigent David Zinman musizierte der Chor mit dem LUCERNE FESTIVAL ORCHESTRA unter Claudio Abbado, mit den Berliner Philharmonikern und Pierre Boulez, den Wiener Philharmonikern unter Simon Rattle, dem London Philharmonic Orchestra und Kurt Masur, dem Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest unter Bernard Haitink und dem Mariinsky Orchestra unter Valery Gergiev. In Zürich fanden ausserdem Konzerte mit Herbert Blomstedt, Ivor Bolton, Eric Ericson, Christopher Hogwood, Heinz Holliger, Marek Janowski, Ton Koopman, Gennady Roshdestvensky, Kurt Sanderling und Wolfgang Sawallisch statt. Gastspiele führten die Sängerinnen und Sänger bis nach Südamerika und nach Malaysia. Die Arbeit des Ensembles ist auf mehreren CDs und DVDs dokumentiert, darunter Abbados Deutung von Debussys Le Martyre de Saint Sébastien.
In an interview Blomstedt gave (in the context of a performance with the BPO), he indicated that he considered the Missa Solemnis to be Beethoven's greatest work.
I laughed about your listening to the MS on the car radio. Every time I choose Parsifal for road music, I think of its 20-year sacred confinement inside the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, because it's for the Consecration of the Stage, whatever that could mean. I doubt Richard was actually serious about this, but I do enjoy the thought of Cosima spinning in her grave.
Hi Dave I'm now listening to a CD bought for a few tens of euro cents with Rudolf Barshai and the Russian National Orchestra. Recorded live in Moscow in the Tchaikovsky Conservatory in 1993. I find it enthralling and enthusiastic with good soloists too (especially the Ladies). Did you get a chance to hear it? Thank you for everything you tell us and teach us. Greetings from Sardinia
i don't see why you say you don't like it. it took me some time to get used to it. then i loved it so much that i made it my first choice for music listening.
DH,,TY for reconsidering Harnoncourt. Personally speaking I love this performance. I had read a review that this a more “devotional” perspective when I bought the CD and with that in mind everything falls in place when I am in that mood. I also have the Szell when I am in the storming the heavens moods. I love the Missa. However,I only occasionally listen and I have to be in the mood.
Klemperer is what I have. And I just bought the Mackerras at Sydney, which I like very much. But I will put Blomstedt on my wish list. Thank you. EVen if Mackerras satisfied me very much,
Hello Dave, here Gilles from France. Please, don't forget the 1958 version directed by Karajan conducting the Philharmonia with Elisabeth Schwartzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Nicolai Gedda, Nicola Zaccaria. It's very well remastered by "The Intense Media". Grants
When I was in college, I purchased a pocket score of the Missa Solemnis to study Toscanini's approach. It took me years to get comfortable with his interpretation specifically and the work in general. The score is so full of possibilities, perhaps more so than any other work. i would nominate four other works: Solti/CSO (is this as close to spiritual as Solti got?); Giulini/New Philharmonia (very paced but every note is carefully considered - you need patience to take it all in); Thielemann (Staatskapelle Dresden - I can't explain why it connects with me but it does); Dorati (European Symphony - I bought this as a big box digital set for 99¢). Dorati always merits more than a parenthetical comment - I approach his as someonen late in his years saying "listen to what I'm about to tell you and consider it deeply"; parts of it just completely miss me and other parts hold me breathless. When I walked my uncle to his grave, and my father to his, the Dona Nobis Pacem section was what comforted me (Solti's). As another commentator noted, RUclips does have a Szell/Cleveland Orchestra channel that includes the Missa.
We approach this music differently! I luved it immediately, and still do 40 some years later. In fact, I worship it (as much as an atheist like me can worship something!). My favorites include: HvK 1966 with excellent soloists, a very exciting 1959 HvK with PHENOMENAL soloists, but pretty lousy sound, and excellent soloists in the very luxuriant Levine Missa Solemnis, though it's not much music for 2 CD's. I have an old video version with Davis conducting the BSO which is all around very good and whose camera work I rather enjoy. When I think of that later Bernstein, I think of not such great sound and Eda Moser making me cringe. It is well conducted though. Klemperer's magic eludes me in his Missa. To me, the soloist more OK. I think he does something kind of weird in the Agnus Dei having the chorus sing soloists parts or vice versa which didn't work for me. As far as Robert Shaw goes, I avoid Telarc and their distantly miked sound. Thanks for the informative talk!
A mediocre performance of the Missa Solemnis makes you believe every complaint ever made about it (difficult, awkward, obscure, dull, unconvincing, etc). A really good performance makes you forget all that -- you hear the music instead of its problematic reputation. Giulini's 1975 recording passes that test for me, but I wonder if the test comes out differently for every listener.
Furtwängler conducted the Missa Solemnis 3 times in the early stages of his career. Then he just put it aside, because he couldn't understand the orchestration. In fact, it is very much influenced by Händel; and it is as such that it should be performed. This was no food for Furtwängler! I agree with your judgement on Klemperer, probably the best among "normal" performances (Also Karajan is not that bad after all), but listen to Philippe Herreweghe: I think this is the right spirit to approach it. I already know you'll disagree, but I just wanted to express my thoughts.
Herreweghe is interesting because he chooses slower tempos while still making the piece sound HIP. Gardiner's version sometimes sounds frantic though still wonderfully fresh. I had Colin Davis' recording on LP which I hated.
No mentioning of Herbert von Karajans otherwise by others heralded recording, Mr Hurwitz (Why? 🤔) But great to hear your heartfelt appraisal of the sadly underrecorded powerhouse buttkicker Eileen Farrell - surely an extra incentive to find the Bernstein CBS recording - as well as Kim Borg who gave me a vocal lesson in his older ailing days - What a personality!
My first hearing was the first Bernstein on record at the time. As you mention Eileen Farrell is and was as superb soprano. I know have that version on CD which is a Japanese pressing by Sony with all the attending hieroglyphics and no libretto. The Kyrie really great. Also a recording of Farrell doing the Immolation Scene from Gotterdammerung is also superb. Likewise had that on record but on on CD. Also have the Klemperer which I really love but then I am generally partial to his conducting.
I well remember that Columbia LP of Bernstein and a magnificent Farrell in the Wesendonck Lieder and Wagner excerpts--a tremendous Immolation Scene (which she did a few years before with Munch in Boston). She was also incandescent in the Siegfried Awakening Scene, recorded even earlier with Leinsdorf and the Rochester Philharmonic. The power and ease of it all remain staggering.
Thank you for this, Today's (July 2nd 2022) 'Building a Library' BBC Radio 3 (available on BBC sounds via i-player) chose Karajan's 1966 DG performance - which I note you didn't mention. And they did not mention either of Bernstein's. Horses four Courses?
Hi David! Thanks for your rational approach to this strange but, in my opinion, quite good work. I will check out the Klemperer on my next commute between Cleveland and Ann Arbor. It’s not quite long enough of a drive to compare two performances, plus I do not think my brain could absorb two back-to-back listenings anyway. At least I like this Beethoven mass unlike his Mass in C, which I have both sung and listened to many recordings of and still do not like. The Mass in C is one of those pieces that people just adore and perform frequently, much like the Mozart Requiem. However, to my ears, both works give me the impression that the composer phoned it in. It’s especially disappointing in contrast to Haydn’s masses (especially the last six, which I just adore), Mozart’s excellent Coronation Mass (unlike his “Coronation” piano concerto, which is the only one of his piano concerti that I have not warmed up to), and the Schubert Ab Mass (God, I LOVE the Ab!). I’ll check out the Rilling performance as well. I wish the Szell recording were still available though. Having lived in Cleveland for the past twenty years, it’s easy to forget that the Orchestra used to be a top notch group. I still go to Severance (though not since the pandemic) now and then but only when they have a guest conductor. The Orchestra is very stiff under Welser-Most. Two of his worst performances that I heard live were a Mahler 9 that sounded like he was trying to strangle the music and the Berg Camber Concerto where repeatedly he got lost. The latter was a Thursday night concert, and he stopped the orchestra twice and started over from the beginning. The second time he stopped, he turned around to the audience and said, “You see, it’s not so easy,” as if it was the orchestra that got lost. I couldn’t believe that he would insult the players like that, or the audience for that matter by thinking we wouldn’t know the work well enough to recognize that it was HIS mistake both times.
Most research,I disagree with your present assessment of The Cleveland Orchestra. It is unfair and inaccurate. This commonly held “wisdom” has been in place since the day after Szell died. It’s has been 52 YEARS! It’s time to give it a break. Maazel was controversial but he added new repertoire to the Orchestra. Under Dohnanyi and FWM , the Orchestra has been given good to great reviews whenever on tour especially in Europe where critics are tough. In the last couple of years(FWM) the New York Times said Cleveland could probably be the best in the world.
I was not exaggerating when I described the Mahler 9 or Berg performances. However, I admit that my saying that the Cleveland Orchestra used to be a good group is a bit of hyperbole. I have heard an excellent live Durufle requiem as well as a knock-your-socks-off Mahler 3 at Blossom one summer, both under Welser-Most. However, I have yet to hear a bad performance from this orchestra under a guest conductor. The most amazing performances I have heard live from Cleveland were the two Boulez guest appearances that I was fortunate enough to attend a few years before his death. The color he could get from them was just amazing. I will never forget the luminous Bach Ricercar arranged by Webern that he conducted: What an unforgettable experience
I've been waiting for this one for quite a while, and I wasn't disappointed. It was a longish review, and so I won't insist on my observation that you might have cast the net more broadly to include some more of the great interpreters of the piece from the analog era. In any case, my first exposure to the work was via Toscanini/RCA. Maybe I was to young to appreciate either the work or the performance, but the Missa was simply a cipher to me for many years. Then, in college, I happened upon the Bernstein/Sony recording, and the light dawned. And I have loved the piece ever since. However, I've sort of outgrown the Bernstein, maybe because I heard it too many times. Latterly, I've gone on to enjoy slower, more affectionate versions such as Jochum and even Böhm's two recordings (the later of which is the only recording with a prominent, and very effective, organ). I was pleased that you mentioned Harnoncourt's late rendition on Sony. I recently purchased a splendid bargain box from Sony containing all of Harnoncourt's late choral recordings (some of which were originally issued on DHM). There's some great stuff in that set, including his fascinating, very personal, but ineffably beautiful Missa Solemnis. Gardiner and Shaw are also high on my list of favorites. I was hot and cold over the Klemperer. Too slow; too angular; yet he does plumb the depths. In the end, however, I most often return to Toscanini/RCA; no longer a cipher, but a thrilling experience from beginning to end. But I so want to hear that live Szell version you mentioned. Let's hope for a reissue. Thanks, as always, for these reviews.
Addendum: I forgot to mention the Ormandy version, which would be my "sleeper" of choice. Like the Bernstein, which always overhadowed it, the Ormandy is hard-hitting and resilient, but lighter in texture, swifter in tempo, and oddly closer in spirit to some of the latterday "historically informed" versions. The one drawback is the amateurish choral singing; but Bernstein's chorus is not that much better. One further point: There may be a certain madness to late Beethoven, especially the Missa Solemnis; but that particular madness was quite catching: Berlioz caught it and so did Verdi in their respective Requiems. And Bernstein caught it big time when he came to compose his Mass.
The 1940 Toscanini is his best; the 1953 broadcast (on you tube?) is actually better balanced than the Richard Mohr produced Carnegie recording sessions. There's also a 1935 Toscanini with ATROCIOUS sound but most notable for, besides what you can hear from the soloists, Rethberg, Martinelli, Pinza, is Toscanini's incredibly expansive tempi, broader than Klemperer's EMI. P.S. You tube HAS the 1967 Szell Cleveland from Severence Hall. Not to be missed, though I'm not crazy about the soprano's suspect pitch .
Any thoughts on Jochum's Missa with the Concertgebouw? I think it's very fine of its type. It's devotional, but it has got great inwardliness. I believe Jochum was himself personally devout, but he seems to have got the elements of doubt/anguish etc. in the piece as well.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks! I should have remembered the Jochum choral box video. I'll go and re-watch it. Thanks for such excellent videos - hugely appreciated.
Confession time: I’ve only heard the Missa once or twice; Bernstein I rather think, but I have no clue which one. I don’t get the piece just yet. Maybe I’ll give the Kubelic/Orfeo mini-box a listen so contextualizing the Missa with the 9th (even an average performance) will help me figure things out. As a staunch Klemperer devotee, I may stream that as well on my next business road trip. I’ll keep on listening!
Great choices, not much else to be said. I think it was the Kubelik recording where I first realized, "Oh, there's an organ in this composition..." Szell and Klemperer are probably my overall favorites, but I still keep Kegel around for that amazing chorus and organ.
The Levine on DG included in their complete Beethoven Choral edition is missed out, and is a favourite for the triple choirs and the amazing soloist lineup... Studer Norman Domingo and Moll. The MS has moments which make you wonder if there is any greater music. It may be too operatic for some.
I will put in a good word for the Levine recording on DG. Live from Salzburg. The choir and orchestra are tremendous. The soloists - Studer, Norman, Domingo, Moll - are quite good, and I say that as someone who has little use for that particular quartet outside of Moll. I was ready to dislike this recording based on my biases, only to be swept up by it upon listening. As Dave says, keep listening.
A typically excellent survey. But I wish 2 'non-spiritual' (if so) recordings - Bohm and Jochum - could have been included.... the spirituality of Klemperer and also of the 1960s Karajan (Wunderlich et al) in different ways which I possess, seems (based on youtube excerpts) to be contrasted in a longer but exciting Bohm recording, and a different 'clean' straight-forward performance by Jochum that resembled the Blomstedt (again on excerpts...) Just wondering....
Have you heard Gardiner's more recent recording on his own label? I loved the older DG one but the new one is even better. Even better sound, even better soloists, and even more virtuosic, detailed choral singing. And it's a bit more musically sensitive and expressive. In my view.
I have the Gardiner 1991 recording which seemed like a revelation when it first came out. I followed up with the Herreweghe recording, even though I prefer Herreweghe in Bach and other early music. I would gladly purchase the Harnoncourt recording in an instant if it weren't for the tenor, who sounds too weak for this music.
George Szell's name is pronounced "Sell", not "Zell". Szell was Hungarian, and in Hungarian "sz" is pronounced like "s" in English, and "s" is pronounced like "sh" in English. (Aside, in Polish, "sz" is pronounced like the English "sh", and "s" is pronounced like the English "s", so the last name of the great violinist Henrick Szeryng is pronounced "shering".)
Stop it! No one cares, I don't care. As long as you know who I'm talking about it's fine. Pedantry such as this is the enemy of pleasant and open discourse. I know how Szell is pronounced in Hungarian. Here's a news flash. I'm not Hungarian. End of story.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I did not realize you were so flammable. I was not intending to be offensive or insulting, but, having been a translator and language tutor by trade, such corrections are instictive to me. I certainly will not apologize for them. If I am not able to write as I see fit, perhaps I might go somewhere else.
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Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is the greatest musical piece I have ever heard. I have listened to all pieces with an Opus by Beethoven this year and when I got to the Missa Solemnis it just caught me from the first second to the last like no piece before. It made in it's own way more sense than any other piece.
My thoughts exactly. A lot of attention is given to Bach's B minor mass in the "greatest mass/music of all time" conversation, but to me this is Beethoven at his best. He even said it was his greatest accomplishment. The way he constructs a narrative throughout the whole piece is mind-blowing.
Thank you for your comments about that sublime Szell performance. I joined the Cleveland Orchestra Chorus in 1961, at the age of 17, and the experience changed my life, as I eventually became a high school choral director in the Cleveland area. I believe that we gave that particular performance in 1963, and it was an earth-shattering experience for me. We again sang it in 1967, both at Severance Hall in Cleveland and in New York's Carnegie Hall during our annual visit there.
I am fortunate enough to have that limited edition recording, as a good friend gave it to me as a Christmas present several years later. I think, frankly, that a possible reason that the Orchestra will not release many of those old performances lies with the fact that they have become musically incapable of duplicating Szell's mastery of the work. The Missa Solemnis has not been performed by the Cleveland since our performances of 1967. They did perform it in London's Royal Albert Hall in a 2005 Proms concert which received rather poor reviews. The Music Directors since Szell have been Maazel, Von Dochnanyi, and Welser-Mőst; Choral Directors since Shaw have included Krehbiel, Hillis, Page, Morrell, Porco, and Wong. The Cleveland Orchestra Chorus had over two hundred members when Shaw was its director; it now has about one hundred. Sic semper gloria!
Thanks so much for the inside information.
I just listened to a stream of the 1967 performance, it seems to be on a number of platforms presently.
The execution of the assembled forces meets the total audacity of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis head-on.
Wonderful.
Needless to say the chorus is equal parts sharp and warm.
But, the brass section performance really stands out; typical for late Beethoven, their sound is exposed, and the Cleveland brass really throw caution to the wind.
This performance really illuminated the remarkable genre-bending, and era-erasing, character of the great composer's vision of the ancient form of liturgical music writing.
Was the chorus paid back in those days, or all-volunteer, as it is now?
Great David. You are a mystical entity just like the Beethoven's Missa. Hard to define, beautiful and sometimes coarse, calm and noisy, light and exaggerated. Endless and hypnotic fugues...
I was present at a forum with Robert Shaw in Cincinnati sometime in the mid-1980s - he visited the College-Conservatory of Music while guest conducting the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra (May Festival perhaps? So many years ago...)
It was about 10 a.m., and he met with about 20 of us students and a couple of professors. His hands were shaking - he was obviously unwell. The choral conducting students were asking him about training methods. He wasn't very enthusiastic. He just said that the overall technical quality of choruses at that time was incomparably better than when he began his career. He didn't seem to be interested in talking about the process. I think he just wanted to go back to his hotel.
I timidly asked him how it was possible, if choruses were so much better today, that even in old mono sound the 1953 Toscanini Missa Solemnis sounded technically equal if not superior to anything else I had heard at the time, and especially in the impossible fugal stretto of the Credo.
The colour went back into his face for a minute, and he said "what a hysterical tempo - and a hysterical piece." And an evil smile crossed his face when he continued: "There are people still alive who think they sang that."
Great story!
I'm so glad that you put Szell's live Missa Solemnis at the top. A late horn player friend played that concert and said that it was Robert Shaw's last Choral preparation in Cleveland before he went to Atlanta. The "GLORIA" at the end of the Gloria always sends sacred chills up my spine. Unfortunately, that entire Szell box was only available for a few years. I'm fortunate to have friends in the Cleveland Orchestra from whom I can borrow it. I hope TCO takes your advice regarding making these commercially available. I enjoy your page very much 🎶🎶
Bless you for mentioning the Szell. At the tempos he took the notes move past my eyes faster than I can keep up! I simply cannot believe the job the Cleveland chorus did. Absolutely amazing!
In music school 50 years ago 😘 we heard the apocryphal tale of the afternoon when several of LvBs pals came calling. They arrived at his door only to hear awful unmusical banging on the piano. After some time the piano ceased and they knocked - Beethoven came to the door looking completely exhausted and disheveled - and announced to his friends he had just completed his new work Missa Solemnis. We were not told from whom this mighty tale arose. Still, gotta love the picture that arises in the mind of this sunny afternoon in Bonn 🤣😂🤣😂👍🏼
He wouldn't have heard the knocking.
This was a most rewarding talk on the various recordings of the Missa Solemnis. Up until now, I had only heard three: the 1966 Karajan rendition; the 1966 version by Klemperer; and the 1990 Archiv recording by Gardiner. I listened with great interest to your discussion of the 1967 George Szell recording, and managed to find a great mp3 version right here on RUclips. I also picked up the Herbert Blomstedt CD on Amazon and heard the organ part for the very fist time ever. I never even realized there WAS an organ part. Thank you so much for your enlightening survey!
Thank you so much for Szell recommendation !!! Life changing experience !
I’ve listened to it on RUclips.
I recently bought an original 2 LP set of Toscanini conducting the NBC Symphony Orchestra and the Robert Shaw Chorale in this work. The soloists are Lois Marshall (soprano), Nan Merriman (alto), Eugene Conley (tenor), and Jerome Hines (bass). Yes it's old, yes it's in mono sound. But the Chior being trained by Shaw and Toscanini whipping the orchestra into shape, it sounds like Beethoven meets Verdi. It's a favorite of mine along with the Szell.
The Blomstedt recording with the Gewandhausorchester is sublime, thanks for sharing it! I own 2 recordings of this work on LP; Karajan's for DG... which isn't particularly interesting, it so happens to be the one my dad had when he gave me all of his LPs, but Kurt Masur's 1972 recording for Eterna is - also with the Gewandhausorchester. It has the legendary Peter Schreier as the tenor soloist. Highly worthwhile listening material.
Thanks for pin-pointing the Szell- -I wasn't disappointed. They sing/play as if their lives depend upon it, to coin an overused expression.
When the choir first enters it makes me cry. The Kyrie is so good! In my opinion the Gardiner recording is the ideal recording for this piece.
Gardiner has the most amazing performance of Handel’s Dixit Dominus! He is at the highest level In choral works in my opinion
Thanks Dave, today I heard on my car radio, Missa Solemnis, Kyrie with Jordi Savall. I listened so many times to this great piece of music, 11 years ago I heard the missa solemnis for the first time, live in Amsterdam, Concertgebouw with the Concertgebouw Orchestra with Harnoncourt. I did leave the concert hall with tears in my eyes - I did begin to love this work so much and I heard it so many times in very different occassions. Today I did have to stop my car and it moved me again to tears, a great Kyrie for all things happen in this world (Israel - Gaza, Oekraine etc) I pray for a big peace and Beethoven his missa solemnis maybe it can be e present for peace to this world, greetings from the Netherlands
I’m one of those oddballs who immediately fell in love with the Missa Solemnis. So much so that as an amateur tenor with not much formal training I joined our local civic chorus just so I could be part of the choir performing it that season. What a work to join a choir for! It’s a bear, as you say. Incidentally, my sentimental favorite recording is actually the earlier Harnoncourt on Teldec. It has a great blend of the tastes of modern and HIP styles and the soloists are amazing. And for some reason he has the sweet-toned tenor Anthony Rolfe Johnson sing the “Et incarnatus es” as a solo rather than with the choir. This would have annoyed me had I been in the choir, but it’s totally gorgeous as done. The sonics though are muddy and disappointing.
Thanks for another fine overview David. One of my favourite works which in 45 years of owning and listening to classical music I never tire of. My most favourable recording of the Missa Solemnis is Jochum with The Concertgebouw - but only on LP curiously. The CD transfer doesn't have the same impact unfortunately! Klemperer is also excellent of course. I probably have most of what he recorded.
We saw Shaw conduct the Missa with the Pittsburgh SO back in the early 70s at the Temple Music Festival (outside Philly). The Gloria was one of the most transporting moments of my concert-going life. The audience must have thought so too, because the applause that followed the last note was thunderous, as if it was the only way to respond to the sheer excitement of the music, and to hell with concert etiquette.
Thanks for recommending the Szell recording. I was able to track it down and my mind was properly blown. Szell's incredible clarity and sense of balance bring out parts in the orchestra and chorus that often get buried, even in modern recordings. He also brings out the stylistic connections with Beethoven's other orchestral music more fully than any other recording I've heard yet. Szell's interpretation really helps you to understand the piece better, on top of being tremendously exciting. I have a LOT of recordings of the Missa Solemnis, so that's saying something. Anyway, thank you! Also, as a heads-up to everyone, Urania's reissue apparently tried to "clean up" the audio and introduced some unwelcome distortion in the process. The CD that was part of the Cleveland box set sounds better.
As a chorister, I can say that the Missa Solemnis ranks with the most difficult works in the repertoire. Huge stamina is required for the Gloria and Credo, and the Credo double-time fugue, if taken too fast, is unsingable. The collective anxiety of the tenor section as they wait for the unaccompanied 'et resurrexit' is not pleasant, likewise a stressed soprano section trying to sustain all the (countless) As and Bbs. There are so many pitfalls. But, if all goes well, it's absolutely thrilling. I've loved the Harnoncourt and Gardiner recordings for the sheer virtuosity of the choral singing, the clarity of text and dynamics. The Klemperer recording is in a class of its own.
@@apointofinterest8574 one could also argue that Beethoven's vocal writing was never exactly idiomatic
The awkward, technically challenging writing in some of Beethoven's later works is most likely a function of his deafness rather than of (his) sublime inspiration.
Thanks, Dave! I 've always loved the Missa Solemnis and have never understood why so many people have issues with it. I regard the ending of the 'Gloria' as perhaps my all-time favorite joyous ending to a movement or work--it makes me want to jump out of my skin! The early Bernstein does it for me every time. Thanks for the rec of the Szell and Blomstedt; must seek them out!
I love this channel so much. David, even in your moments of passion for particular performances and musical beliefs, you maintain a certain inspiring open mindedness. I say inspiring, because you have always inspired me to keep an open mind. Now, I wouldn't say I'm a Bernstein hater, but I think I'm closer to that than I am to your feelings about Bernstein. But I always keep my ears open when you recommend him, because I ABSOLUTELY know what you mean by how he nails certain pieces. For me, I adore his Schumann symphonies. And yes, perhaps I'm a little uncomfortable about how superb and profound I find his Missa Solemnis. Thank you David for revealing it to me.
Thanks for listening!
Please permit me this "Missa" story. One Sunday in April of '73, I was sitting in a tenor & bass sectional (Cleveland Orch Chorus) for the Missa Solemnis, when who should walk in but Lorin Maazel himself, the new Music Dir of the orchestra; it was a sort of "get acquainted" session, and he proceeded to lead the rest of the rehearsal. In the middle of the Gloria, he stopped at the point where Beethoven, in order to heighten the intensity of "miserere nobis" ("have mercy on us") had inserted the interjection "O (miserere)"; however, some editions used "AH" (miserere) instead.
"Which shall it be?", the Maestro mused, perched on his conductor's chair, hands clasped and, in his best Bela Lugosi mode, rolling his eyes Heavenward, as if seeking divine guidance. "Shall we use "O" or "Ah?" A brief moment of silence, and a voice from the back row called out "How about OY?".
Lorin Maazel is NOT known for his sense of humor, which only increased our convulsions as we tried to restrain from howling. Maazel glowered: "Will the gentleman who made the comment please see me afterwards". We all immediately switched to defensive mode, to protect one of our own. At the end of the rehearsal, we closed ranks, expecting a confrontation, while chorus director Robert Page jumped in saying "Guys, let me handle this." In the end, Maazel spoke softly and courteously with the wise guy (who also happened to be Jewish), an older gent...bald, with a white beard, wearing a tweed jacket, sort of a combo between Leo Tolstoy and St. Nick..who up 'til that point had never uttered a word to any of us all season long. Believe me, you can never tell about those quiet ones.... LR
Great story! Maazel was quite young then-he should have just laughed it off. Was Joela Jones accompanying on the piano, by the way?
Great video Dave! I have been waiting for this one. For my 3 cents, I have always loved this work since a teenager. I just reveled in the sense of rough struggle that seems to be an underlying current through the thing. My favorites are, the early Bernstein, Klemperer, toscanini on rca. HOWEVER, to coin a phrase, my all time sleeper missa is Gunther Wand with the Gurzenich de Cologne. Its smokes, with a forward fantastic chorus, and pace. Was on a Nonesuch lp, way back in the early 1970s. But is now on a cd set with an earlier 1950s eroica. Sound is pretty good, better than the lp. Its still out there !
Thanks
Paul G.
Same town: Klemperer from 1955. It's obviously not the Philharmonia with their chorus, but it has fantastic integrity and expression. And the orchestra (and soloists) did know the piece well enough to make an excellent case.
Szell absolutely! One of the greatest performances of Beethoven's Missa, for me alongside Toscanini- I have a radio transcript of the Szell as well as the issue put out by the Cleveland Orchestra for his centenery in 1997. Hear it and be overwhelmed and exhausted!!🙌🙌🙌
JOYFULLY exhausted!
Dear Dave, I am happy to see that your view of the Gardiner recording has changed from "fairly uninteresting" in one of your ealier talks about the big Gardiner box from DG to "still cool but very impressive and excitng" now. The Gardiner recording is my favourite recording of the Missa since the day it came out and I never managed to warm up with another recording of the work. I found it always very exciting and a very good recording to learn to know the work itself. I once heard that the recording was made during the time the Berlin wall went down and that some of the excitement of that circumstances was captured on the disc. I will give the Kubelik a try, though.
Dear David.
Not even Ludwig van completede his 10th - Congratulations on Your deserved complete 10 K devoted and thankfull listeners.
No reason not to keep on talking and listening as long as Your insights and enthusiasm have the elevated Level we have become used to.Thank You for Your time and talent
I have the 1953 Toscanini, & the Sanctus always makes me weep buckets (in a good way) but was looking for another version as a comparison, so thanks for this - I do like your videos.
Dave. I forgot to congratulate you on your 10k milestone. Here’s to the next 10k. Thank you for all that you do. These talks literally are game changers.
Thank you Dave for this fine overview and reviews. I may have missed it, but I have the DVD with von Karajan, the Berlin Phil, and the Wiener Singverein...I love it! I would give up many hours of my life to have sung the Missa with von Karajan (I sang the Missa in the Westminster Symphonic Choir (prepared with Dr Joseph Flummerfelt!) with the Pittsburgh Symphony under Donald Johanos (William Steinberg had rehearsed the Missa, but fell ill prior to the performances) (1975) So, just sayin'...
Karajan--Yechh!
Yes, Missa Solemnis is a hard piece to get to know. In it's way it is the culmination of everything Beethoven learned and was and felt all in one place; it took me some years to realize it's a great work that grows as we keep listening and so I keep listening.
Once again you sent me into my own "overflow" area to find my forgotten copy of the spectacular Szell performance I had not heard in years. I listened to it twice this past weekend. Hopefully the neighbors were feeling devotional. I plan to get the Blomstedt set on your say so.
Note: 2 corrections: "What's this guy's name?" Bruna Castagna was a "her" and she was one of the greatest of the Italian Mezzo of the first half of the century. And, Eileen Farrell was not actually a Wagnerian soprano. She never sang a whole Wagner role only Walkure Act 1 and Tristan Act 2 both of which I heard live and they were not very good. Admittedly the recordings of Götterdämmerung Immolation scene with DeSabata and Bernstein are spectacular, and there are ok performances of Wesendonck Lieder and a perfectly good recording of Siegfried final scene with Leinsdorf but she never a full role and not even arias from the other operas. Likely she was asked to do more but I believe she instinctively knew hers was a big lyric voice and due to the evidence of how very few performances of live opera she actually sang one might assume she lacked stamina and therefore she was not a Wagnerian. That would have been the likes, in her lifetime, of Traubel, Flagstad, Varnay, Modl, Rysanek, Grummer, Nilsson, etc. But what she was they were not was a terrific singer of popular music. There she was great.
Since the great Robert Shaw is a significant part of this presentation (his Atlanta/Telarc recording is my "go to" recording), viewers should be aware of the magnificent video series "Robert Shaw; Preparing a Masterpiece" right here on You-Tube; Volume 2 is a 96-minute choral rehearsal in NY, where you can actually witness Maestro Shaw work his magic. Want to hear how he accomplishes all of those amazing vocal feats? Here's your chance. LR
The Robert Shaw recording has been my favorite for decades-- it has magical coherence and great beauty and clarity. I'll try some of your recommendations!
Another great video! Your series has cost me $$$$ but has helped me upscale my love and appreciation for the Western repertoire. I had Klemperer's recording from way back, and the rare half dozen times I have played it over the course of 20 years, I have always enjoyed it. But this video has given me greater insight into the work. From the work, I checked in on the New Philharmonia to read their history, which took me to the latest conductor, Santtu-Matias Rouvali, who I heard give a very tepid video performance with the Berlin Phil (cannot even remember what the piece was, but the orchestra did NOT applaud him and seemed eager to leave the stage at the earliest opportunity). From this, I checked your review of Sbelius' First by Rouvali and could not contain my laughter at your tour de force review. All of this from this video! Thank you!
Back in the late 70's when the major part of my income, before marriage and family, went to the purchase of many records from the late and lamented Liberty Music Shop in Ann Arbor, I did buy the Klemperer recording of the Missa Solemnis which I think is great and agree with your assessment, but also the 1957 recording by Karajan on EMI. His Gloria is quite fast and impressive and the unsupported shout of "Gloria" at the very end is marvelous. I didn't play much of the whole recording but wore out the grooves of the Gloria.
Jack Hinkley: Liberty Music in Ann Arbor is still alive but is now known as Encore Music and had moved to s smaller location but they are still a presence in the city.
@@johnpickford4222 I am well aware of Encore Records and frequented it before the move, but I haven't had the opportunity to check out the new store yet as I don't get into AA very often. After moving to Ann Arbor for a job in 1975, I bought many an oil barrel's worth of vinyl from Liberty Music, becoming too well known to the management such that I was asked to work Saturdays, especially during Art Fair and Christmas, for a few years to pay off some of my purchases. I took great glee onetime, when it was my turn to choose a record, to put on the then recently released Muti 'Rite of Spring' on EMI (always EMI never Angel) then being told that it was too "savage" for the customers who would be "driven away" before making a purchase. However the music prevailed. I think at least two copies were sold and more were ordered.
Thanks for this talk, David - excellent as always! I have been fascinated by the Missa Solemnis since I heard a live performance from the Proms in the UK when I was about 12 years old (many years ago....!). I say fascinated, but not really in love with the piece until now! I have the Karajan/Berlin Phil recording from 1966 on CD, and being a huge fan of Christa Ludwig I had spent most of my time with that recording in which I am, overall, somewhat disappointed (do not like the choir). I have been looking to find a way to fall in love with this piece and have generally taken it piecemeal, but I have now listened to many of your recommendations. I was pleasantly surprised by the Rilling and the Gardiner (the chorus in the latter recording is excellent), and in Kubilik I thought I had found my #1 recording; great soloists, strong choir, but I still detected weak moments (the start of the Gloria and the Credo in particular). I was avoiding the Blomstedt as it is a live recording, but I tried it and I have now found my personal reference recording. The choir is strong and the soloists, though individually not the strongest I have heard, sing wonderfully as an ensemble; and this is what I think is required of them in this piece (new revelation?!) The sound is vibrant, clear and immediate. My only negative at this point is the ending of the Gloria; it did not blow my socks off, and I think it always should! Incidentally, I think the Kubelik recording ends the Gloria the best. So, thanks again for finding a new and wonderful recording for me (and many of us, I suspect!)
Giulini is my favorite. It really should be given a truly great remaster. I tracked it down on vinyl - the middle tier CD reissue still sounded better. I always go back to that version.
In the Szell recording one almost feels as if the chorus is conducting it, ferociously, and they are truly amazing. This recording might fully convert me to this extremely tricky piece. Totally agree about the way Beethoven writes for the human voice.There are moments when he seems to be determined to wreck the vocal chords, but then he'll give us music like the quartet in the first act of 'Fidelio' and we forgive them. But my God, when the MS has choral singing of such astonishing confidence and commitment as in Severance Hall that night with Szell, you just feel like Ludwig was upping the chorus's game to a peak. It simply HAS to be performed at this standard.
Yes, it really does kind of spoil you for anything less (although other versions have other points in their favor--I just can't think of them when I hear this one).
I became acquainted with the MS via the Klemperer recording back in the early 1970s. I didn't like it much at first as I was expecting something like the 9th, but eventually I grew to like it a lot. I also have the Szell and concur with your verdict. As to HIP performances, I enjoy the Herreweghe, but it is the only one I know; I'll have to listen to the Gardiner someday to see whether I share your appraisal. I also have both Bernstein's, four Karajan's, Jochum, Toscanini, etc., but Klemperer and Szell remain my top two. I wish I could hear the MS live in a good performance but it seems to be performed rarely in the places I've lived (or visited).
Not everyone would agree, but I always had a soft spot for Giulinis 1973 recording with the LPO and the New Philharmonic Chorus. There are some who criticize its slow tempos, but I thought he kept everything under control and it is one of the most devout reverential interpretations I know of. Very underrated, even now!
Thanks again! It took me quite awhile to appreciate and then love the Missa Solemnis, but it was Bernstein who did it for me-his first recording (with Eileen Farrell et al) and probably still my favorite. I never really took to his later Concertgebouw recording, finding it dull in comparison. Of the HIP boys, I really like Gardiner DG and a more recent-and even quicker-one by Frieder Bernius on Carus, another great choral conductor. As to Harnoncourt, he did one in 2012 with the Concertgebouw and Netherlands Radio Choir on DVD. The soloists are Marlis Petersen, Elisabeth Kulman, Werner Gura, and Gerald Finley. It’s a very moving performance, where Harnoncourt sits down and meditates between some of the movements! I’m glad to know that the Szell is available on RUclips. Will definitely have to check it out.
I listened to Szell’s performance on
RUclips this afternoon and can only hope it again becomes available on CD. I think it is terrific, even though there were a couple places that were a bit over-controlled. Still, a marvelous reading where you can hear and appreciate all the detail in the orchestra as well as being blown away by the choir.
You are so funny and a delight to listen to. Not to mention educational! I'm going to park my butt and listen to the Szell recording tonight. After that - I'll check out the Rilling CD I stole from my dad.
Thank you!
You're welcome. Have fun. That will be one hell of a contrast!
Oh thank you so much for doing the Missa Solemnis. :-) I have always loved this work but it also always puzzled me... The first performance I heard was actually a live John Eliot Gardiner concert, which blew me away. (Lucy Crowe was the soprano soloist... amazing!!!) In regards to the George Szell recording, if it is the same one you were talking about, his live recording is actually on RUclips. That is how I heard it, so I recommend going to check that out. (if it is still there... hopefully...) My two top choices are the Szell and the Shaw recordings. :-) Thanks so much for this great video.
By now there are three uploads of this recording.
As soon as I watched this video, the Szell Missa popped up as a "recommended" video on RUclips (the algorithm works!). I assume it has been uploaded legally. Will be listening to it (finally!) today.
If anyone wants to listen to the Szell Missa Solemnis, I believe you can find it here on RUclips :)
This is another cd I have to get my collection is bursting great review I already have gardiner but you’ve convinced me
You do make me laugh with that split-second image of you wearing a tie when you say "The Ninth"... but I digress:
I have tried to listen to Missa Solemnis for decades, and only today have I really loved it. I put on the Gardiner version and thank you very much for inspiring me to begin finally to appreciate this piece.
By and large it is wise to heed Mr. Hurwitz' recommendations.
Really informative, and funny! Thank you
Great talk, David, and I agree with your assessment of the Szell performance. I'm lucky enough to own that box, and agree that there's more that should be released from it---in my opinion, starting with Sibelius 4 & 7 and the Mahler 9th. If you could choose from that box, what would you recommend? Rich
I just checked, and the Szell performance is now available as an mp3 on Amazon!
Thank you! I just purchased it!
This is my new favorite you tube channel. I remember you doing battle with hard core Furtwangler fans long ago on message boards. I also seem to remember you actually trying to explain you didn't hate everything he did, as you've shown here, and actually made a great post outlining the recordings you loved. I think it would be great if you dedicated a video to "good" Furtwangler performances; it would be educational as well as the added bonus of confusing the cult members.😃
The upcoming Big Box will give me a chance to do that...
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was fearing that
@@DavesClassicalGuide I can't wait! 😃
@@DavesClassicalGuide I love your discussion on Presto with Rob Cowan re Furtwangler, btw you won the argument in my opinion, no problem!
@@richardwiley3676 Glad you enjoyed it.
The Szelll recording is available on youtube.
16:48 The chorus is the „Schweizer Kammerchor“ 🤓
Der Schweizer Kammerchor, der 1997 auf Anregung von Fritz Näf und dem Tonhalle-Orchester Zürich gegründet wurde, widmet sich vor allem der Chorsinfonik, aber auch der A-cappella-Musik vom 17. bis zum 21. Jahrhundert. Neben Konzerten mit dem Tonhalle-Orchester unter Chefdirigent David Zinman musizierte der Chor mit dem LUCERNE FESTIVAL ORCHESTRA unter Claudio Abbado, mit den Berliner Philharmonikern und Pierre Boulez, den Wiener Philharmonikern unter Simon Rattle, dem London Philharmonic Orchestra und Kurt Masur, dem Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest unter Bernard Haitink und dem Mariinsky Orchestra unter Valery Gergiev. In Zürich fanden ausserdem Konzerte mit Herbert Blomstedt, Ivor Bolton, Eric Ericson, Christopher Hogwood, Heinz Holliger, Marek Janowski, Ton Koopman, Gennady Roshdestvensky, Kurt Sanderling und Wolfgang Sawallisch statt. Gastspiele führten die Sängerinnen und Sänger bis nach Südamerika und nach Malaysia. Die Arbeit des Ensembles ist auf mehreren CDs und DVDs dokumentiert, darunter Abbados Deutung von Debussys Le Martyre de Saint Sébastien.
Nice of them to tell us (not)!
In an interview Blomstedt gave (in the context of a performance with the BPO), he indicated that he considered the Missa Solemnis to be Beethoven's greatest work.
Beethoven agrees. (He says so in one of his letters).
I laughed about your listening to the MS on the car radio. Every time I choose Parsifal for road music, I think of its 20-year sacred confinement inside the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, because it's for the Consecration of the Stage, whatever that could mean. I doubt Richard was actually serious about this, but I do enjoy the thought of Cosima spinning in her grave.
Bravo David and grazie!
Hi Dave I'm now listening to a CD bought for a few tens of euro cents with Rudolf Barshai and the Russian National Orchestra. Recorded live in Moscow in the Tchaikovsky Conservatory in 1993. I find it enthralling and enthusiastic with good soloists too (especially the Ladies). Did you get a chance to hear it? Thank you for everything you tell us and teach us. Greetings from Sardinia
i don't see why you say you don't like it. it took me some time to get used to it. then i loved it so much that i made it my first choice for music listening.
And I don't see why you're puzzled just because not everyone feels the same way you do.
DH,,TY for reconsidering Harnoncourt. Personally speaking I love this performance. I had read a review that this a more “devotional” perspective when I bought the CD and with that in mind everything falls in place when I am in that mood. I also have the Szell when I am in the storming the heavens moods. I love the Missa. However,I only occasionally listen and I have to be in the mood.
Me too.
Klemperer is what I have. And I just bought the Mackerras at Sydney, which I like very much. But I will put Blomstedt on my wish list. Thank you. EVen if Mackerras satisfied me very much,
Hello Dave, here Gilles from France. Please, don't forget the 1958 version directed by Karajan conducting the Philharmonia with Elisabeth Schwartzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Nicolai Gedda, Nicola Zaccaria. It's very well remastered by "The Intense Media". Grants
The Szell is on RUclips like just about everything else. A decent set of headphones and you're good to go.
When I was in college, I purchased a pocket score of the Missa Solemnis to study Toscanini's approach. It took me years to get comfortable with his interpretation specifically and the work in general. The score is so full of possibilities, perhaps more so than any other work. i would nominate four other works: Solti/CSO (is this as close to spiritual as Solti got?); Giulini/New Philharmonia (very paced but every note is carefully considered - you need patience to take it all in); Thielemann (Staatskapelle Dresden - I can't explain why it connects with me but it does); Dorati (European Symphony - I bought this as a big box digital set for 99¢). Dorati always merits more than a parenthetical comment - I approach his as someonen late in his years saying "listen to what I'm about to tell you and consider it deeply"; parts of it just completely miss me and other parts hold me breathless. When I walked my uncle to his grave, and my father to his, the Dona Nobis Pacem section was what comforted me (Solti's). As another commentator noted, RUclips does have a Szell/Cleveland Orchestra channel that includes the Missa.
I am one who neither listens nor talks about it. But I did listen to this !
I have always enjoyed Jochum with the Concertgebouw (1970)/ Wonderful sonnics
Music for the road, what an idea to explore 😀
We approach this music differently! I luved it immediately, and still do 40 some years later. In fact, I worship it (as much as an atheist like me can worship something!). My favorites include: HvK 1966 with excellent soloists, a very exciting 1959 HvK with PHENOMENAL soloists, but pretty lousy sound, and excellent soloists in the very luxuriant Levine Missa Solemnis, though it's not much music for 2 CD's. I have an old video version with Davis conducting the BSO which is all around very good and whose camera work I rather enjoy. When I think of that later Bernstein, I think of not such great sound and Eda Moser making me cringe. It is well conducted though. Klemperer's magic eludes me in his Missa. To me, the soloist more OK. I think he does something kind of weird in the Agnus Dei having the chorus sing soloists parts or vice versa which didn't work for me. As far as Robert Shaw goes, I avoid Telarc and their distantly miked sound. Thanks for the informative talk!
A mediocre performance of the Missa Solemnis makes you believe every complaint ever made about it (difficult, awkward, obscure, dull, unconvincing, etc). A really good performance makes you forget all that -- you hear the music instead of its problematic reputation. Giulini's 1975 recording passes that test for me, but I wonder if the test comes out differently for every listener.
Furtwängler conducted the Missa Solemnis 3 times in the early stages of his career. Then he just put it aside, because he couldn't understand the orchestration. In fact, it is very much influenced by Händel; and it is as such that it should be performed. This was no food for Furtwängler! I agree with your judgement on Klemperer, probably the best among "normal" performances (Also Karajan is not that bad after all), but listen to Philippe Herreweghe: I think this is the right spirit to approach it. I already know you'll disagree, but I just wanted to express my thoughts.
Perfectly reasonable. Thank you.
Herreweghe is interesting because he chooses slower tempos while still making the piece sound HIP. Gardiner's version sometimes sounds frantic though still wonderfully fresh. I had Colin Davis' recording on LP which I hated.
Definitely Klemperer!
No mentioning of Herbert von Karajans otherwise by others heralded recording, Mr Hurwitz (Why? 🤔)
But great to hear your heartfelt appraisal of the sadly underrecorded powerhouse buttkicker Eileen Farrell - surely an extra incentive to find the Bernstein CBS recording - as well as Kim Borg who gave me a vocal lesson in his older ailing days - What a personality!
Why should I just because others talk about it? If they want to "herald" it, let them.
My first hearing was the first Bernstein on record at the time. As you mention Eileen Farrell is and was as superb soprano. I know have that version on CD which is a Japanese pressing by Sony with all the attending hieroglyphics and no libretto. The Kyrie really great. Also a recording of Farrell doing the Immolation Scene from Gotterdammerung is also superb. Likewise had that on record but on on CD. Also have the Klemperer which I really love but then I am generally partial to his conducting.
I well remember that Columbia LP of Bernstein and a magnificent Farrell in the Wesendonck Lieder and Wagner excerpts--a tremendous Immolation Scene (which she did a few years before with Munch in Boston). She was also incandescent in the Siegfried Awakening Scene, recorded even earlier with Leinsdorf and the Rochester Philharmonic. The power and ease of it all remain staggering.
Thank you for this, Today's (July 2nd 2022) 'Building a Library' BBC Radio 3 (available on BBC sounds via i-player) chose Karajan's 1966 DG performance - which I note you didn't mention. And they did not mention either of Bernstein's. Horses four Courses?
I have no idea.
Hi David! Thanks for your rational approach to this strange but, in my opinion, quite good work. I will check out the Klemperer on my next commute between Cleveland and Ann Arbor. It’s not quite long enough of a drive to compare two performances, plus I do not think my brain could absorb two back-to-back listenings anyway. At least I like this Beethoven mass unlike his Mass in C, which I have both sung and listened to many recordings of and still do not like. The Mass in C is one of those pieces that people just adore and perform frequently, much like the Mozart Requiem. However, to my ears, both works give me the impression that the composer phoned it in. It’s especially disappointing in contrast to Haydn’s masses (especially the last six, which I just adore), Mozart’s excellent Coronation Mass (unlike his “Coronation” piano concerto, which is the only one of his piano concerti that I have not warmed up to), and the Schubert Ab Mass (God, I LOVE the Ab!). I’ll check out the Rilling performance as well. I wish the Szell recording were still available though. Having lived in Cleveland for the past twenty years, it’s easy to forget that the Orchestra used to be a top notch group. I still go to Severance (though not since the pandemic) now and then but only when they have a guest conductor. The Orchestra is very stiff under Welser-Most. Two of his worst performances that I heard live were a Mahler 9 that sounded like he was trying to strangle the music and the Berg Camber Concerto where repeatedly he got lost. The latter was a Thursday night concert, and he stopped the orchestra twice and started over from the beginning. The second time he stopped, he turned around to the audience and said, “You see, it’s not so easy,” as if it was the orchestra that got lost. I couldn’t believe that he would insult the players like that, or the audience for that matter by thinking we wouldn’t know the work well enough to recognize that it was HIS mistake both times.
Wow!
Most research,I disagree with your present assessment of The Cleveland Orchestra. It is unfair and inaccurate. This commonly held “wisdom” has been in place since the day after Szell died. It’s has been 52 YEARS! It’s time to give it a break. Maazel was controversial but he added new repertoire to the Orchestra. Under Dohnanyi and FWM , the Orchestra has been given good to great reviews whenever on tour especially in Europe where critics are tough. In the last couple of years(FWM) the New York Times said Cleveland could probably be the best in the world.
Most respectfully*. I don’t know why YT won’t allow an edit option.
I was not exaggerating when I described the Mahler 9 or Berg performances. However, I admit that my saying that the Cleveland Orchestra used to be a good group is a bit of hyperbole. I have heard an excellent live Durufle requiem as well as a knock-your-socks-off Mahler 3 at Blossom one summer, both under Welser-Most. However, I have yet to hear a bad performance from this orchestra under a guest conductor. The most amazing performances I have heard live from Cleveland were the two Boulez guest appearances that I was fortunate enough to attend a few years before his death. The color he could get from them was just amazing. I will never forget the luminous Bach Ricercar arranged by Webern that he conducted: What an unforgettable experience
Szell is now available on Spotify.
I've been waiting for this one for quite a while, and I wasn't disappointed. It was a longish review, and so I won't insist on my observation that you might have cast the net more broadly to include some more of the great interpreters of the piece from the analog era. In any case, my first exposure to the work was via Toscanini/RCA. Maybe I was to young to appreciate either the work or the performance, but the Missa was simply a cipher to me for many years. Then, in college, I happened upon the Bernstein/Sony recording, and the light dawned. And I have loved the piece ever since. However, I've sort of outgrown the Bernstein, maybe because I heard it too many times. Latterly, I've gone on to enjoy slower, more affectionate versions such as Jochum and even Böhm's two recordings (the later of which is the only recording with a prominent, and very effective, organ). I was pleased that you mentioned Harnoncourt's late rendition on Sony. I recently purchased a splendid bargain box from Sony containing all of Harnoncourt's late choral recordings (some of which were originally issued on DHM). There's some great stuff in that set, including his fascinating, very personal, but ineffably beautiful Missa Solemnis. Gardiner and Shaw are also high on my list of favorites. I was hot and cold over the Klemperer. Too slow; too angular; yet he does plumb the depths. In the end, however, I most often return to Toscanini/RCA; no longer a cipher, but a thrilling experience from beginning to end. But I so want to hear that live Szell version you mentioned. Let's hope for a reissue. Thanks, as always, for these reviews.
Addendum: I forgot to mention the Ormandy version, which would be my "sleeper" of choice. Like the Bernstein, which always overhadowed it, the Ormandy is hard-hitting and resilient, but lighter in texture, swifter in tempo, and oddly closer in spirit to some of the latterday "historically informed" versions. The one drawback is the amateurish choral singing; but Bernstein's chorus is not that much better. One further point: There may be a certain madness to late Beethoven, especially the Missa Solemnis; but that particular madness was quite catching: Berlioz caught it and so did Verdi in their respective Requiems. And Bernstein caught it big time when he came to compose his Mass.
The 1940 Toscanini is his best; the 1953 broadcast (on you tube?) is actually better balanced than the Richard Mohr produced Carnegie recording sessions. There's also a 1935 Toscanini with ATROCIOUS sound but most notable for, besides what you can hear from the soloists, Rethberg, Martinelli, Pinza, is Toscanini's incredibly expansive tempi, broader than Klemperer's EMI.
P.S. You tube HAS the 1967 Szell Cleveland from Severence Hall. Not to be missed, though I'm not crazy about the soprano's suspect pitch .
@@bbailey7818 Picky, picky!
You can hear the Szell performance on RUclips. Dave did not exaggerate. It is amazing - best I’ve heard.
@@Kounios Thanks, John. The combination of Szell and Beethoven is always a great match.
I've got the Szell! YES!!!
Szell is available on Tidal...streaming!! spectacular
There is a Missa video from 2007 with Jerry Hadley. Has anyone seen or heard?
Any thoughts on Jochum's Missa with the Concertgebouw? I think it's very fine of its type. It's devotional, but it has got great inwardliness. I believe Jochum was himself personally devout, but he seems to have got the elements of doubt/anguish etc. in the piece as well.
See my vid of the Jochum choral box.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks! I should have remembered the Jochum choral box video. I'll go and re-watch it. Thanks for such excellent videos - hugely appreciated.
Confession time: I’ve only heard the Missa once or twice; Bernstein I rather think, but I have no clue which one. I don’t get the piece just yet. Maybe I’ll give the Kubelic/Orfeo mini-box a listen so contextualizing the Missa with the 9th (even an average performance) will help me figure things out. As a staunch Klemperer devotee, I may stream that as well on my next business road trip. I’ll keep on listening!
Great choices, not much else to be said. I think it was the Kubelik recording where I first realized, "Oh, there's an organ in this composition..."
Szell and Klemperer are probably my overall favorites, but I still keep Kegel around for that amazing chorus and organ.
The Levine on DG included in their complete Beethoven Choral edition is missed out, and is a favourite for the triple choirs and the amazing soloist lineup... Studer Norman Domingo and Moll. The MS has moments which make you wonder if there is any greater music. It may be too operatic for some.
Great vid! One nit - not Igor Kipnis, but Alexander Kipnis.
Of course. Thanks. I knew Igor and I always get it wrong.
Mr. Hurwitz, what do you think about James Levine's version (with Wiener Philharmoniker)? and Davis' (Brilliant edition i guess)?
And I suggested 14 different performances and will not talk about the others. It's enough. If you like them, then great!
I will put in a good word for the Levine recording on DG. Live from Salzburg. The choir and orchestra are tremendous. The soloists - Studer, Norman, Domingo, Moll - are quite good, and I say that as someone who has little use for that particular quartet outside of Moll. I was ready to dislike this recording based on my biases, only to be swept up by it upon listening. As Dave says, keep listening.
@@markstenroos6732 I’m with you on the Levine recording. It was an overwhelming experience listening to it the first time.
A typically excellent survey. But I wish 2 'non-spiritual' (if so) recordings - Bohm and Jochum - could have been included.... the spirituality of Klemperer and also of the 1960s Karajan (Wunderlich et al) in different ways which I possess, seems (based on youtube excerpts) to be contrasted in a longer but exciting Bohm recording, and a different 'clean' straight-forward performance by Jochum that resembled the Blomstedt (again on excerpts...) Just wondering....
And next week... The Ideal Haydn Masses! ;)
Yes!!!
Dave, there's a third Bernstein recording - with the New York Schola Cantorum, and different soloists (except for Farrell).
EXCELLENT VIDEO AS ALWAYS! Toscanini in Stereo would be great!? Not possible with new tec?
Have you heard Gardiner's more recent recording on his own label? I loved the older DG one but the new one is even better. Even better sound, even better soloists, and even more virtuosic, detailed choral singing. And it's a bit more musically sensitive and expressive. In my view.
The Szell Recording is available on Urania! Also available on streaming platforms. What a smoker!!
Yep.
For Zinman, it's the Schweizer Kammerchor
Who knew? Thanks.
I have the Gardiner 1991 recording which seemed like a revelation when it first came out. I followed up with the Herreweghe recording, even though I prefer Herreweghe in Bach and other early music. I would gladly purchase the Harnoncourt recording in an instant if it weren't for the tenor, who sounds too weak for this music.
David, You should do a video on "the insanity that is late Beethoven."
I'm not sure how I would do it. It's so much easier just to listen to it than it is to talk about it!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Oh, come on, Dave. You can do it! Since when have you been at a loss for words? Let it rip!
What would the present conductor of the Cleveland Orchestra say? "The Ghost of George Szell"!
George Szell's name is pronounced "Sell", not "Zell". Szell was Hungarian, and in Hungarian "sz" is pronounced like "s" in English, and "s" is pronounced like "sh" in English. (Aside, in Polish, "sz" is pronounced like the English "sh", and "s" is pronounced like the English "s", so the last name of the great violinist Henrick Szeryng is pronounced "shering".)
Stop it! No one cares, I don't care. As long as you know who I'm talking about it's fine. Pedantry such as this is the enemy of pleasant and open discourse. I know how Szell is pronounced in Hungarian. Here's a news flash. I'm not Hungarian. End of story.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sztop it (hungarian pronunciation), you make me laugh so (polish pronunciation) hard, it hurts (english pronunciation)
The one place I can find the Szell is on RUclips.
Great!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I will look every where for Szell. We never know.
For future performance, the plural of Missa Solemnis is Missae Solemnes.Otherwise, very thought-provoking essay.
I know and I don't care. Never do that again.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I did not realize you were so flammable. I was not intending to be offensive or insulting, but, having been a translator and language tutor by trade, such corrections are instictive to me. I certainly will not apologize for them. If I am not able to write as I see fit, perhaps I might go somewhere else.
You go, Fab!
Missae Solemnes. Just to be pedantic... ;)
No one cares.
Gardiner, Blomstedt ❤❤
And what about Gardiner's 2013 recording? Is not as good as the first?
Nope.