Transmission Windup Explained (transfer case bind)
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- Опубликовано: 12 июл 2020
- #windup #how4x4swork #transmissionwindup #transfercasebind #LEGO
What is transmission windup, also known as Transfer Case Bind, how do you get it, what vehicles are prone to it, how do you fix it...everything you need to know! Explained with a LEGO model so you know it makes sense!
Transmission windup is also known as driveline windup, axle bind and driveline binding. Here's some myths...if they don't make sense, watcht the video:
1.You need to drive quite a long way before you get windup
No, you can get windup even by driving a few metres. Just go full lock and turn on a high-traction surface. Presto, windup!
2. You need to unlock your hubs before you drive on bitumen
No you don’t, you just need to take your part-time 4WD out of 4WD. Then the front and rear axles can spin at different rates, so no windup. Locking hubs slightly reduce fuel consumption.
3. Wet bitumen won’t give you windup.
Yes it will, it’s more than high traction enough.
4. Reversing straight back fixes windup
No, it won’t. Windup is caused by the front axle rotating faster than the rear. So reversing straight back does nothing for windup. However…if there’s very little windup then you may be able to jiggle the transfer case loose enough to get the vehicle out of 4WD by reversing.
5. Turning left cancels turning right
No, windup increases whether you turn left or right.
6. You can’t get windup with open diffs
Yes you can. Windup is about relative speeds of front and rear axles, not different speeds between wheels on an axle.
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Never seen a better explanation of transmission windup. Great video!
Thanks! Would appreciate a share 👍
Best video I have seen on transmission windup! Actually its the only one but the graphics and model are on point and it's well explained.
What a great video. You broke it all down with fantastic explanations and effective visual demonstrations. Thanks for taking the time. I learned a lot from this.
I have been researching and learning this very same subject on RUclips for a while, but your explanation especially with the model car is THE BEST among all.
I have pick up a couple of new knowledge from you video.
Thank you so much.
Glad it was helpful! Please share!
Subscribed to your channel as well. Again, great vid. Clear, concise and highly informative.
Awesome, thank you!
Wow Robert! Thank you for the lesson in the shower from lake arrowhead California.usa. I was driving in icy conditions but high traction surface in some spots and i was turning full passanger when I experienced “wind up” . Searched online and the Lord blessed me with finding your channel! Thank you very much. By the way i am driving a 1987 4runner 🙏🏾
Good to know Jesus is directing people to my channel!
Thanks for that, very easy to understand 🖒
Many Thanks. Great explanation and demonstrations of this behaviour
The best video on the subject! Really helpful. Subscribed. 😀
Thank you!
Best explanation I've seen about 4wd wind-up. Usually the sources say that there's wind-up on hard surfaces without saying why or what's happening to the driveline. I always thought the driveline motion was "solid" all the way through--no slack, which made me wonder how wind-up could be possible at all. Your demonstration that there is slack that wind-up absorbs solves the question.
Took me a couple of tries to catch the explanation at 11:30 but I suspect that's more my slowness than any defect in the video. Well done to you.
Thanks! Please share. Not an easy concept to understand.
very educative. Thank you Regards
Perfect explanation, thank you!
Glad it was helpful! Please share :-)
so nicely explained, best video have seen on this subject
Glad it was helpful! Please share :-)
Since I discovered your videos, every day I learn something (great), I consolidate some concepts (fantastic) or I find something about which I previously had the wrong knowledge (the most important in learning).
Thank you. In addition, it helps me to refresh my English.
Thank you so much, that's really appreciated!!!
you all probably dont care but does anyone know of a tool to get back into an instagram account..?
I somehow lost the login password. I appreciate any assistance you can give me.
@Grayson Garrett Instablaster :)
@Kristopher Julian thanks for your reply. I found the site on google and I'm in the hacking process atm.
Takes quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Kristopher Julian it worked and I actually got access to my account again. I'm so happy!
Thank you so much, you really help me out !
Credit where credit is due, I would say this is easily your best video yet, well done!
Consise, technically accurate and covered the topic thoroughly without straying off onto tangents.
Now just the audio..... :)
Thanks, it's a learning curve :-)
@@L2SFBC It's certainly a steep one. Like the H.O.T!
Very informative, thanks!
Thanks please share!
Excellent, clear explanation of wind-up. I am new to 4x4s and your videos have been immensely educational! Just one video was enough to get me to subscribe.
Glad it was helpful!
@@L2SFBC Yeah! I just hope I didn't ruin my new Jimny's transfer case yesterday or any other part as I took nearly a whole U-turn in a parking lot with 4H engaged. I could feel resistance halfway through the turn as the driveline was winding up. It felt like one of the wheels was getting its brake applied. When I realised what happened, I immediately shifted into 2H. After the car was on a straight path, I had to put it back into 4H and back into 2H and move forward to free up the front locking hubs.
Should be ok. Don't do it again 😀
@@L2SFBC Oh, I won't! You can count on that! Thank you again. Cheers!
I was thinking about this earlier and yt presents me with this a few hours later.
Its the CIA
I had this happen once, it was stuck in 4WD mode and vibrating hard over 60km/ph. Managed to get it unstuck by reversing backwards for about 10m and driving forwards and putting it back into FWD, a big thonk happened and it free'd it up. Most likely was a bad move but it worked, I had no idea windup was a thing until I started researching what had happened. Haven't put it back into 4WD again, scared its broken lol 😶🌫
This was a fantastic explanation and demonstration. The one thing I've never been able to understand is where this windup energy is stored. Is it torsion in the axles, or in the gearbox shafts, and if you keep driving under these conditions what is likely to fail first? Is it snapped axles/cvs, stripped teeth on diffs or the the gearbox. thanks again, wonderful video
thanks, please share! energy stored everywher in the drivetrain. As to fail first, really very variable and I haven't got enough experience to comment, thankfully!
I think the entire drive train stores energy like a torsion spring, the weakest link would fail first
Yes
Would've liked the video 10 times if I could. Fantastic.
Thanks, just a share and subscribe will do :-)
Great video
Glad you enjoyed it
A simple, old style part time 4WD is great fun in winter. Also because you have to learn how and when to engage and disengage the front. Tricky stuff taking a turn from a road covered with snow onto a well prepared main route with no snow at all! Full time 4WD are easier to drive, but it’s not so much fun…
Great explanation! It seems to me that you could equally cause wind-up by driving in reverse while turning, which would then need to be unwound by forward turning...
You are correct!
Hi Robert! Thanks for yet another great video -- your channel is a real gem!
Does your recomendation of locking the center diff change when we're talking about a Torsen LSD? Specifically, if we're talking about LC Prado 150
From what I understand, torsen diff has a finite torque bias ratio, which means that it cannot send more torque to each axis than TBR x 2 x friction of the most loose tire (in case of the center diff, because we have 2 wheels on one axis and supposing that the open diff has a TBR=1).
My guess it that there is not much reason to use it on dirt roads, but offroad on an uneven surface or going up and down a hill would still be safer with the CD locked?
Yes, if you have a Torsen CD like in the Prado I wouldn't lock for dirt roads, but I would if it was an 80 Series with an open diff. When you get to uneven surfaces I'd be locking your Prado's c/d. I do not subscribe to the "let's see how far we get before we use traction aids" school of thought; it damages tracks, increases vehicle wear, uses more fuel....nobody's a winner.
very usefull
Glad you think so!
I can tell you with absolute certainty that you can get wind up on gravel roads. It is something that I have experienced many times I have also seen conditions where windup is pretty much guaranteed on gravel roads they can become very hard packed and very high traction.
Yes hence the point about high traction vs low traction surfaces. Some very hard clay roads when dry can be so good for traction you leave rubber marks. Some bitumen roads when snow covered are slippery.
Excellent video! I have a question. I have a part time 4wd, it's a pickup truck. Do I need to engage 4 high when driving in the rain?
Not on sealed surfaces you will get wind-up.
3:35 - Ah you got to it. I was thinking... But surely the center diff would allow the rear and front diffs to receive different speeds.
Such a great video explaining this so well that I finally truly understood it. Thanks.
One question though: Does that mean if I am able to put in 2 Wheel Drive after experiencing windup, I can be sure that all windup has cancelled out? Or how do I make sure that all windup has cancelled out?
Best wishes to you!
If you can get it into 2WD, your windup worries will disappear.
@@L2SFBC Alright thank you!!
Excellent video and very well explained. The RUclips algorithm has come up trumps for once. This video comes up in my feed after I had a brain fart and drove about 30kms in 4 high on bitumen. It was open and pretty much straight road with no tight corners. I pulled over to dirt on side of the road and it went into 2 high with no issues but would I still have windup?
Yes, we've all had such brain farts :-( I don't know for sure, but I would suspect you did have a little windup but not enough to prevent the selector changing into 2H. A different car doing the same thing may not have been able to get into 2H.
@@L2SFBC thanks for the quick reply!
Your content is amazing, thank you. I encourage others to join your Patreon so we can get more great content.
I'm left wondering how people's rigs survive slick rock trails and why I don't hear much about issues caused by running those trails. For example there's the popular slick rock trails in Moab, Utah with very high traction and sharp turning. I would guess that vast majority of folks are running those trails without ever disabling 4WD, so there'd be plenty of opportunity for windup. I never hear about transmission issues running these trails, yet on the other hand, I often hear warnings about not using 4WD on pavement. This makes me wonder if the risk of damage caused by windup is overstated. Perhaps wheels tend to break traction, even in high traction surfaces, well before serious problems occur? What do you think?
Thanks yes need more Patreons, my dream is to be Patreon-funded and have a cool community of people discussing good things without FB ads and idiots. Re the trails; well I've never driven in the USA, and have limited slick-rock experience but certainly enough to know that you would get windup in some situations. However the key thing is that offroad trails are not even or level so there's different weight on each wheel hence different grip, and have also dust/dirt and loose rock here and there. Therefore, the transmission is able to unwind at points. Contrast that to a paved road which is always flat and level, never any real dirt, and therefore the transmission never gets a chance to unwind and synch front/rear axles, there's never anything close to diagonal wheel lift. A gokart has a fixed rear axle, no diff, and it turns partially by unloading the inside wheel to reduce grip...same sort of principle. I shall ask on my FB page the extent to which windup has to be managed.
@@L2SFBC Makes sense that there'd be more opportunities to unwind on even a high traction trail due to variances in the surface (though I think there's probably sections of trail that would be similar to pavement). But I'm not convinced that the transmission never gets a chance to unwind on flat paved roads. Wouldn't build-up of windup eventually cause the tire to break traction with pavement (unless something breaks first)? Same as gravel, just more force required? I've foolishly left my 4x4 engaged on pavement and while making an impatient u-turn, observed the tires squealing/hopping.
By the time the tyre breaks traction the damage is usually done - maybe not the first hop, but with enough, something will overstress.
Does windup occur on 4L as well as 4H?
Great video by the way!
It occurs whenever the front and rear axles are locked to the same speed. Whether that is in 4L or 4H depends on the car.
Thank you for the video. I have a question - how do open vs locked differentials impact windup? If you have 4H engaged, and you have a truck with open front and rear differentials - shouldn't this prevent windup from occurring under all circumstances, even on bitumen, bc the 4 wheels can all still rotate at different speeds at any given time?
Good question. Open or locked axle diffs has no effect. Windup is the relative speed of front and rear axles. Whether locked or open axle diffs the front driveshaft must spin faster than the rear. If you lock an axle diff on high-traction surfaces and continuously turn in one direction you'll get axle windup (not transfer case/driveline windup) as well as damage your turns. Turning the other way just increases driveline windup, but it cancels axle windup.
as per your suggestion to drive on dirt roads - would you do you need have it in 4wd or rwd. Thanks mate
Always 4WD
If you get windup on a paved road, sometimes just getting 2 wheels on the unpaved shoulder will release it. Assuming it's safe to do that, of course!
Yes that will help!
What happens if you didn't do that?
Very informative. I discovered this last week w/ my 4x4 Frontier 2018 when put in 4hi and tried to make a 180 turn. Do you think this a mechanical problem that needs to be addressed by a mechanic? Or is a "natural problem" caused by the conditions you mentioned?
If you can take it out of 4H into 2H then it should be fine, and if the surface was high-traction then that'll be your problem! Please share the video :-)
@@L2SFBC what do you mean "if the surface was high traction that'll be your problem"?
You get windup on high traction surfaces
Hi there, I need some help from an expert. I was testing the different 4x4 gears (all the way to LLc) in standstill just to see the different indicators on the dash. I took everything back to 2wheelD but the lights stayed on. Even after about 50m of driving just before I heard a loud bang noise around the front wheel. Probably the windup and release... the 4WD lights whent off after that and everything seems fine. No noise.... should I have it checked out or perhaps be on the lookout for something more serious? Thanks
Is that a Mitsubishi? Yes could have been windup. Did you drive in a straight line or not?
@@L2SFBC thanks for your reply. It's a Mitsubishi yes. No, unfortunately not, I was trying to get to a patch of sand. It's an automatic btw.
Auto/manual makes no difference. If you were on sand, no windup. If you were on a hard surface, then possibly yes.
This was great! Quick question. Granted there is a windup, can I drive my SUV onto a hydraulic lifter like the ones in a gas station, have the vehicle lifted, and drive on it to release the built up tension? Thoughts and suggestions most appreciated. Thank you!
Yes you can but be careful of the sudden release of tension which may be dangerous. You can also jack up a wheel.
Thank you for the prompt advise. Just a coiple more questions before I head on out to the gas station.
1) While on the lifter, how long do I drive forward and on reverse?
2) While up there, do I drive and reverse while still on 4wd or just on 2wd?
3) Just as a safety measure and still while up there, would applying the brakes make a difference or not at all?
Again, thank you for your advice. 🙂
As soon as you remove weight from the cars wheels then wind-up will dissipate. No need to drive anywhere. But lift very very slowly.
Thank you, Robert. Huge help, super!Heading out and will keep you posted. Will share your links to 4wd communities I also am part of. 🙂
Hello, Robert. Your advice worked just like you said. Once lifted, the tires corrected themselves. Amazing, man!
My Montero Sport is running just as smooth as before, many thanks to you.
Will share your channel as well.
Follower here!
Thank you, Robert.
Great content. Just a quick question. Generally speaking does damage from windup become immediately obvious (bang/crash/nasty), or could it damage the drivetrain cumulatively over time? I am just about to buy a Ranger, which appears to work correctly in 4H & 4L, can I therefore assume there is no lurking damage from the previous owner creating cumulative windup events during their ownership.
Both. You can smash a drivetrain in short order as in a few minutes or it can be a stress building up over time depending on how bad it is. A mechanical inspection is the only way.
Oh and please share
@@L2SFBC thanks for the reply. I guess unless it’s plainly obvious, any strip down inspection is going to be the most expensive part of any eventual repair, so best to leave this. Visual look around and wriggling the exposed drivetrain parts is probably as much that is possible then.
I’m curious as to why you would have the centre diff locked or 4H engaged in such a scenario?
Which scenario?
i have another question. Let's say im stuck in mud whilst in 4wd and i can't move forward or backwards. Would it make sense if i put my vehicle in reverse in 2wd with 100 percent torque to the rear axles, will it pull me out? because in 4wd the torque is being split 50/50.
No because in mud there is low traction and therefore each wheel can only support limited torque before it spins. So, you want to distribtute the engine's torque over many wheels, so keep it in 4WD. All you'll do in 2WD is spin further in.
Question, i have a 4x4 truck and whenever i put it on 4hi or 4lo it feels as the front wheels lock up. Is that a transfer case problem?
Maybe
So I have a question, I drive a HGV that has a single axel with differential lock, if I was to lock it on a tarmac or concrete surface and make a turn this could wind the diff up? I'm guess it will by the look of it.
No - you have a cross-axle locker, so turning left cancels turning right. Not the case with the difference in speed between front and rear axles.
L2SFBC - Robert Pepper - auto journo interesting so I can correct my dad who tells me "it will wind the diff up" thanks
Yes. If all you did was turn one way, you'd get some windup but only in the axle that's locked. Windup as generally understood won't happen with a cross-axle locker. Send your dad my YT links :-)
Question.
Can you turn your vehicle while in 4wd with open center diff?
Yes and it is easier than if you locked it.
So you have a picture of a wk2 Trailhawk there and say it will not get wind up. Can you not get wind up in 4wd low on a Jeep GC Trailhawk with Quadradrive II? I was under the impression 4wd low locked the diff.
If the centre diff can manually be locked on a 4x4 then it is possible to get windup. If it cannot be, and is computer-controlled or similar, then you can't as the computers manage the degree of lock to ensure no windup. Essentially the wheel speed of the front wheels vs back is compared to determine lock. In the case of the Ford Everest there is also an appreciable clunk as the centre clutch releases some tension to avoid windup in some modes as you turn.
With locked center differential divetrain windup is because of the difference of front (large) and rear axle radius. When driving backwards in a curve there still the radius of rear is larger then the front axle. So I cannot understand how the stress is relieved because it is not a directional rather a travel distance stress - am I completely wrong?
Let's say you have zero windup. You drive forwards 90 degrees. You then have windup. You drive back 90. That eliminates the windup...but if you drive back a further 90 you get more windup and then have to drive forwards to release it.
Also, let's say you have zero windup. You drive backwards in a circle. You get windup. You need to drive forwards in a circle to cancel it.
Thank you very much for the explanation. It's clear. Windup goes to a specific direction and can be unwind by changing the drive direction but not by changing the steering direction. Tried it out with my Wrangler JK on paved road.
Yes that is correct. Can you send me a video of what you did please?
If a bit of wind up occurs from driving on a surface with too much traction and you are able to switch it back to 2wd is the windup then relieved by driving around in 2wd? Thanks, great video 👍
Yes
@@L2SFBC Sir, i do not have a 4×4..... but I have legit question anyway. I have a sedan that has these two wheel drive and obviously its front wheel power, will the computer sensors force the issue the so called wind up issue sir, "electronically" e.g. getting its programme error on to its front sensors by for example I currently am driving with 2 front pairs of "highway tires" and different pair size two @ back tires designed for/ recommended for "heavier load". Turning going forward I noticed similarity too it reacts same as this video without 4×4 scenario but a sedan. I had different sized wheels and yes I get a wind up of some sorts as mentioned on the video but I won't know for sure until I get the correct size tires all matching up. Fast food drive through creates this wind up if it is requires me to move on up the road incline to the window especially if it is leveling upward to the window while making curving angle degree turn to the left. I am a one time owner of my vehicle and the tire issue coinciding with this trouble seems like its plausible that wrong size tires are an issue hear. Sorry for my lengthy post sir.🙏🙏 if not then I'm trying to make sense of all these.
I accidently drove 10 or so miles in 4wd on pavement and did a 180 and it started jerking and not wanted to turn so sharply, but I drove back home a ways and shifted back into 2wd, is the windup gone, did I do any damage? Thank you 🙏
if you could easily get it back into 4WD, then probably you're ok
Lets say you did 720 degrees turning the vehicle, is it correct to say that you then need to reverse in a circle 720 degrees also? To get rid of wind up. According to what you said when you turn 90 degrees forward , you need to turn 90 degrees in reverse. So am i correct about the 720 degrees
Yes
I think that driving fast enough (~100 Km/h) will release the windup even on paved road. (Is it true?)
It's not recommended to cancel the 4x4 before releasing the stress, the fastest way is to go from paved road to sideways (dirt road), even with one side of the car.
High speed only works if the wheels leave the ground or are unweighted enough to allow windup to dissipate
If I move to 2wd from 4wd and drive will it release the built up tension ?
I have been multiple places where after a technical climb we have to turn and endup on Tarmac.
I shift immediately to 2wd the moment I hit Tarmac
You mean from 4WD to 2WD? If you are driving in 4WD on low-traction surfaces then you won't get windup. And if you drive in 2WD on high-traction surfaces..again, no windup.
@@L2SFBC lemme say in simple words
If I built little wind I p while in 4wd
Now if shift to 2wd and drive will it release ?
Yes. Soon as it goes to 2wd it will dissipate.
Windup is just something to be aware of and not do because of issues it can cause to the transmission? Its not like there is an issue with a vehicle to take in and get addressed? I have a 2021 Ram and use the part time 4H when its snowy, but have experience what I now know is Windup. Thanks for the video!
Just be aware of it yes
Oof, I remember that day when I forgot to take my truck out of 4x4 on a snow storm night and I went into the Wendy's drive tru, that turn was so loud and I bet I broke something, I never used 4x4 again (unless I'm off roading)
If it was an icy, wet road hopefully there would have been enough slip not to get windup!
My Kia sorento doesn’t drive smoothly round the corners at slow speeds - for example trying to park and makes a banging noise when in full lock. My mechanic keeps telling me that it is normal but I’m not so convinced!
Possibly CV joints?
L2SFBC - Robert Pepper - auto journo i suggested that before (after a bit of google research) but they said they don’t think thats it. Recently had a new prop shaft in front, anti roll bar and links behind)
L2SFBC - Robert Pepper - auto journo and they can see that the front diff is leaking oil
Will you still get wind up if you have a rear LSD
Yes.
Why my car when the 4WD engages I hear like hitting a metal with a hammer?!
Could be lots of reasons...have a mechanic check it out.
Good explanation, however, all stress created by windup is in your axles, drive lines, and transfer case. Your transmission has nothing to do with it.
Just go back to 2Hi or unlock the center diff and the windup is gone!
...if you can. The problem is you may be unable to do that until most if not all of the windup has been dissipated.
@@L2SFBC thank you for this info! I was unaware of this windup phenomena, I bought a Jeep used and didn't know that you shouldn't drive it in pavement in 4 high.. I just hardly ever drive it and wanted to give it a little exercise.. I've hardly driven it in the several years I've had it.
There are much much better videos out there that explains in English and much simpler
Great video
Thanks, please tell me why and subscribe, share etc!